back to article Microsoft ordered to fix 'excessively intrusive, insecure' Windows 10

A French regulator has issued Microsoft a formal warning over Windows 10, saying the operating system collects excessive amounts of personal data, ships that information illegally out of the EU, and has lousy security. The warning comes from the Commission Nationale de l'Informatique et des Libertés (CNIL), an independent data …

  1. matchbx
    Facepalm

    I've said it before

    Microsoft, along with all of the other big software companies, figured out that they can make more money selling your personal data to advertisers than they can selling you a product.

    It's an dangerous road to head down...

    1. BobChip
      Coat

      Re: I've said it before

      They're not (can't be) selling my (current) data. I have not used anything made by MS in the last 6 years. There are perfectly good non-slurping alternatives out there. To quote from the July 12 issue of Info World :-

      "Today, the best Linux desktop is the latest version of Linux Mint: Linux Mint 18 Sarah with the Cinnamon 3.0 interface. Indeed, from where I sit, it’s not only the best Linux desktop, it’s the best desktop operating system – period."

      OK, that's only an opinion, but it is an informed one. And I still use 17.3 LTS, because it is LTS. It is by far the most stable, and the easiest OS to install and manage that I have ever experienced. 17.3, with FOSS software, gives me everything I need to operate successfuly.

      I'm off out of here quick, because I can already hear the Redmond trained wolves howling in the distance.......

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: I've said it before

        Well done. Good boy/Girl. Have a cookie.

      2. soulrideruk Bronze badge

        Re: I've said it before

        I installed the latest version of Linux Mint Cinnamon on my laptop as I look to move away from Windows, but it seems I can't get the bloody thing to do what I want.

        It will open any application that came pre-installed with the OS, but won't run any packages installed from the package manager. Despite their being desktop icons showing it's installed. Despite being an IT professional, Linux is again giving me problems when trying to switch to it.

        It's almost like Linux doesn't want me to use it. Every time over the years I have tried it, it just doesn't do what it's supposed to. :P

        1. Gert Leboski
          WTF?

          Re: I've said it before

          Really? In all the years I've used Linux based distros and more recently Linux Mint, I've never experienced what you describe.

          IT professional? Do you regard being an end user as being an IT professional? Because you sound to me like you are expecting somebody else to come along and fix it for you. Not a hint of any research or diagnostics you may have done, as to why the issues you describe exist on your system.

          Are you trolling?

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: I've said it before

            If he's talking Linux Mint 17.3 / 18 he's trolling, or the most incompetent IT Professional ever to set foot on El Reg.

            Linux Mint has got to be the quickest, easiest of any OS to install/use, at the present time. Windows 10 is just a pain in the arse, having to manually deactivate all the switches/telemetry, which still leaves 'basic telemetry'.

            The full telemetry reports are still generated locally and stored on the local hard disk in Win10, all this does is change a switch to whether it is actually transmitted. So, in effect this generated data can still be lifted other ways.

            1. Triggerfish

              Re: I've said it before

              I'm not really an IT professional but I ain't bad, I also have been frustrated sometimes to the switch across, I know to some degree it comes down to spend time learning a whole new OS and working out just quite what bit of my hardware is sometimes causing it to be screwy and occasionally unstable*. Just not sure at the moment when I am supposed to be finding the time to work all this out.

              So saying there's no chance I'll be moving to windows 10 unless I can't run some stuff on Linux and 7 support ends.

              *I know you may say Windows etc is, but my W7 install has been very well behaved. Better behaved than Mint.

            2. JohnLBergqvist

              Re: I've said it before

              IMO Linux Mint is for people who are too dumb to install codecs by themselves.

              I have to say, Linux has come on in leaps & bounds in the past 10 years - trying to get Suse 9.3 to install on my circa 2003 Acer Laptop was a PITA - zero drivers for my soundcard, modem, ethernet port, printer etc. Thankfully driver support seems to have improved a lot.

              Personally I use Arch.

              Is Mint still based on Ubuntu? I try to avoid anything by canonical now tbh as they kinda have a "lets ship our proprietory software on top of open-source stuff and slurp all their data" approach too. Although tbh everyone does this now, Canonical, Apple, Facebook, Google, Amazon, Ebay/PayPal, Banks, CCTV, Netflix etc. etc. so frankly Microsoft seem late to the party.

          2. Gert Leboski

            Re: I've said it before

            Ooooo, downvoted. Have I hit a nerve?

            1. soulrideruk Bronze badge

              Re: I've said it before

              lol, downvote wasn't from me.

              If you read my post instead of glancing and trying to launch a fan bois attack, you would see I have no problem installing Mint, nor any problems using any of the applications that come with Mint.

              The problems are only with packages I have downloaded and installed, you know, things like Steam among others.

              I really don't think this is the forum where I supply full diagnostic steps, nor convey the advise of the 2 experienced linux application devs who tried to assist me. The best they can come up with is something went wrong in the install, as, I quote "They have never seen anything like this happen before".

              Their advise was to reinstall and try again, and sometime next week I plan to do so. However, all this constant linux works flawlessly is fan bois dreaming, Linux is software, software NEVER works flawlessly.

              1. Pascal Monett Silver badge

                @soulrideruk

                You see, that is what I find supremely annoying with just about any fanbois community. You make a valid point, you're experiencing difficulty, and the only thing they come back with is insults, demeaning words and contempt. Then they complain about how small their market is.

                That kind of attitude is a plague for computing in general. It keeps new people from getting interested and locks everything down to only the saintly original group that understands everything and never has any problem whatsoever.

                A 6th-level black belt in any martial art is never going to have that kind of attitude. He will seek to give you examples and help you until you figure out what you're doing wrong. We need people with that mentality in IT.

                1. detritus

                  Re: @soulrideruk

                  Oh Good, yes - instead of staying resolutely on Windows 7 'til it runs out as my protest against MS's shenanigans, but so that I can keep on working in the meantime anyway - why don't I dutifully follow the standard Win Thread complaint response and install some unknown's preferred flavour of Linux?

                  Oh. External machine drivers.

                  Oh. Software.

                  Oh, yeah - I forgot I live in the real world, shit as it may be.

                  Linux wasn't even particularly suitable for my non-techie partner for a couple of years - sure, she could browse the internet, 'do' multimedia and make notes and use basic office software.. but ultimately none of it is *actually, practically* wholly interoperable with MS/Apple stuff, is it? And that kind of matters when you're dealing with the rest of the world to put bread on your table.

                  Or you try explaining to an Italian why she should just give up after hours of swearing at logical inconsistencies and [insert workaround fudge here] because "really, my love - this isn't worth the fight".

                2. Dave 15 Silver badge

                  Re: @soulrideruk

                  See my post as well, EXACTLY the same when I asked for help.

              2. Lars Silver badge
                Linux

                Re: I've said it before

                "The problems are only with packages I have downloaded and installed, you know, things like Steam among others.".

                Those packages are then apparently not suitable for your distro. Use the repositories for your distro and of course RTFM, says somebody who will mostly do everything else first.

                And then you also have to just understand that as soon as there is a MS-Linux comparison some trolling tend to happen too.

                Don't take that personally and feel offended.

                I am an old Linux user since 98 and these modern distros are indeed very usable out of the net or the box.

                1. soulrideruk Bronze badge

                  Re: I've said it before

                  Really, I don't understand why people would ever ask for help on the internet, every response always comes back assuming you are a retard who's never seen a computer.

                  I have RTFM, and of course I was using correct software for the distro, and I was downloading all through package managers. As the very experienced linux devs that tried to help me said, I have not done anything wrong, the system is just not working right for some unknown reason.

                  They also went through all the idiot stuff, both of them, on separate occasions. They verified, I'm not an idiot.

                  1. Aqua Marina Silver badge

                    Re: I've said it before

                    "I don't understand why people would ever ask for help on the internet, "

                    Indeed, I once made the mistake of asking for some help on a Linux related issue I was having trouble resolving. I was universally blasted on the forum as being a noob, and basically told in no uncertain terms to RTFM!

                    I responded that I had indeed read the manual, and pointed out using screenshots where necessary that the instructions provided didn't match the interface, the responses or the prompts, and that in some some cases, steps were clearly missing, because titles were present, but followed by blank spaces.

                    I was then informed by the same users who had roasted me earlier and told me to RTFM, that the manual was considered "beta".

                    That experience tainted my belief that Linux users are somehow more technically competant than Windows users. I now believe that they are a bunch of bullies, who just like to point at the new guy in the room, and pick on him.

                    1. Triggerfish

                      Re: I've said it before

                      To use the black belt metaphor above. I find the problem tends to be less they won't teach you, and more they often insist on using the original language of that art and rarely have time for you if you ask what that means in English. Dunno if it's less now, but put me off quite a bit.

                    2. Kiwi Silver badge
                      Linux

                      Re: I've said it before

                      that they are a bunch of bullies,

                      In an article on MS and slurping.. MS who have shoved Win10 down peoples throats who didn't want it.. MS who recently were successfully sued by someone who lost business because of MS killing her machine with their forcing system changes on it.. MS who delete competing products without warning and remove useful/liked parts of a system without warning...

                      Few years back an elderly friend of mine had issues with Vista. I spent some time trying to research this - a fault with explorer where one of the tool bars (the one with "Organise" on it IIRC) had gone missing.

                      I only came across one other person with the complaint in the time I spent trying to find a solution, a young lass I think from Australia. In MS's own forums one of their techs was calling this lass a liar because as far as he was concerned the fault was impossible. It could not occur.

                      (That said, i did get a couple of free calls from MS support people trying to help determine what the fault was, without any luck, and eventually we decided a re-install was the only way to fix it.. The old bugger's been an almost happy Mint user since that day - almost happy because being a crotchety old bastard while I could give him better versions of Freecell and Hearts and other games like that, because the packs looked different he moaned every time he played the games for months - course he was silent when we reminded him that he'd not had a crash or virus or major slowdown in that time but hey, what's the use of being a C.O.B if you can't piss and moan at the tiniest little thing while ignoring massive benefits? :) )

                  2. jelabarre59 Silver badge

                    Re: I've said it before

                    I have RTFM, and of course I was using correct software for the distro, and I was downloading all through package managers. As the very experienced linux devs that tried to help me said, I have not done anything wrong, the system is just not working right for some unknown reason.

                    While Linux (mint 17.3 currently) has worked fine for me for many years, I also find those occasional quirks that never get solved. I remember the various times I tried Suse Linux and regardless of the version or machine, it simply could never get the display settings right. My current issue is with Cyberfox: as much as I'd rather be using it as my default browser (Firefox has decided they will kill plugins they don't like, with no recourse to tell them they're a bunch of boneheads in their decision), nothing will make CF work as the default. Thunderbird will sit there trying to send URLs to *itself* to open, other pages will come up and say "what do you want to open this HTML file in", etc. Figured I was just going to have to put up with the fuckwits at Mozilla for now, since Google Chrome will bring Linux to a complete halt if you even dare start it.

              3. fung0

                Re: I've said it before

                soulrideruk: " I have no problem installing Mint, nor any problems using any of the applications that come with Mint. The problems are only with packages I have downloaded and installed, you know, things like Steam among others.

                Mint 17.1 (I think it was) installed nicely on my ChromeBook (after I applied the requisite BIOS hack to boot directly into the OS of my choice). But I had to update various system components - including the kernel - in order to get all the devices to work. This process was well-documented on the Net, and went quite smoothly. Now the touchpad works, the touch-screen works, everything works. It's a great little laptop.

                I recently tried to do the same on a second, identical, ChromeBook. Mint 17.3 installed perfectly, but couldn't see the Wi-Fi properly. Nothing I could do would fix the problem. After wasting many hours, I finally gave up. But when Mint 18 came out a couple of weeks later, I tried that. It installed quickly and flawlessly, with no extra configuration required. Everything just worked first time. On top of that, Mint 18 boots faster than any other Windows or Android device I own, even on the under-powered Celeron system. I've installed various applications from the Software Manager, including Steam. Given the limits of the hardware, undemanding games feel right at home.

                My point being, Linux is a work in progress - and the progress is very real. Unlike the 'progress' we're seeing in Windows, where it's one step forward, two steps back. (Or sideways.) Windows has never been able to install perfectly on every piece of hardware, every time. I've even seen Windows laptops come right from the store in a non-functional state. Overall, I'd say Mint is already easier to deal with than Windows 7, and vastly more tractable than Windows 10 - the first OS that's literally been engineered to get in the user's way.

          3. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: I've said it before

            Some times software gets weird. Long time Ubuntu user. I built my self a new PC two years ago. This time I was going for a triple boot. FreeBSD/Ubuntu/windows. FreeBSD worked fine, windows worked fine. Ubuntu threw a fit over my network card. Ever few minutes it would drop ETH0. No reason. IT's the first and only time I have had a major problem with a linux distro. Well other than some cheap no name gear that had issues in windows as well as linux.

            1. swampdog

              Re: I've said it before

              I had a wierd one with clonezilla. My laptop hd was failing so I replaced it with an ssd to give it a new lease of life. The ssd is half the size. It's amazing how much crud you can get rid of when you decide to.

              Restored to the ssd and lost eth0. Repeat. Ditto. Eventually decided to sit down and look at the problem which turned out to the the selinux security context on a single file.

              # chcon --reference=./ifcfg-lo ifcfg-eth0

              This is irritating for the fact I can't restore it to a VM. The laptop has a bonkers partitioning scheme which the vmware bios won't grok: blank - nada bios "he no work!" so I'll never know if it was a one-off glitch in clonezilla or (more likely) a final spanner from the dying hd.

              Sometimes wierd shit(*) just happens.

          4. Dave 15 Silver badge

            Re: I've said it before

            The replies to this guy seem typical of my very unfortunate experience.

            A few years back now I took a machine of mine, cleaned the drive and followed the instructions for a linux distribution.

            It booted

            It then told me that the monitor was not a graphics one and proceeded to leave me with the command prompt.

            This being a graphics monitor on a graphics card that had been displaying graphics for about 5 years.

            When I asked 'the community' to point me (as a new to linux but experienced guy) in the right direction the abuse wasn't believable even though I read it. Not a single answer that helped . My ability, my skill, my knowledge were all called into question, I think even the marital status of my parents.

            There are definitely people that think this is acceptable in 'the community', and the comments about a guy who has clearly had an unfortunate problem, possibly from his installation, who may or may not be a professional of hours or years standing show that 'the community' hasn't grown up and still can't understand that help is sometimes needed not abuse.

        2. TimeMaster T
          Thumb Up

          Re: I've said it before

          Thus speaks the MSCE "IT Professional"

          1. soulrideruk Bronze badge

            Re: I've said it before

            Absolutely right!!

            I got mine about 15 years ago, as it was vitally important back then as I wanted to move from being a lowly field server engineer to one of those lucky IT people who got to sit in offices all day.

        3. Code For Broke

          Re: I've said it before

          Linux Mint Cinnamon has totally turned around my sexlife. On the very first day that I downloaded the ISO, before I had even written it over to a flash drive, the hunney from down the way came over on the premise of needing to borrow ingredients for a cake. Asked if I had some cinnamon, I invited her in to come and have some.

      3. Cynic_999 Silver badge

        Re: I've said it before

        I use Mint on my PC, but unfortunately have never got it to see my Laptop WiFi, despite trying various complex command line driver installs. A laptop without WiFi is severely limited ...

        1. TVU Silver badge

          Re: I've said it before

          If anyone is having any problems with Linux Mint then I would suggest trying out LXLE Linux or Linux Lite and see how things go. In the case of Linux Lite, I would suggest installing the easy to use Lubuntu Software Center app store (instructions are on the recent review of Linux Lite on Spatry's Youtube channel).

        2. Kiwi Silver badge

          Re: I've said it before

          Though rare, I believe I have actually seen the non-working wifi beasty in Linux.

          In most laptops, wireless cards are cheap (like less than a cup of coffee if you go 2nd hand) and take less time than needed to drink the coffee to swap out. And if you get pretty much any broadcom or.. can't remember the other names atm but any generic or name brand or cheap chinese/korean/wherever card will be picked up by a Linux OS in a matter of microseconds without the need to install additional drivers. At a pinch you could go out and find a cheap USB dongle (if your laptop has enough ports, few do!) and plug that in, and have most modern Linux distros find it and have it working (save for your credentials) before your brain even registers that you've fully plugged it in.

          I'm a fussy fat lazy slob, and that's why I love Linux. I don't have to get off my arse and do anything for or to it, it (usually) just works. Yes, I did manage to screw up my video drivers today pissing around with something I didn't quite understand, but in those cases Linux gives you various recovery options that far surpass the no-longer-available "safe boot"...

          Grab a couple of pounds, go down t' high street, grab yourself a nice new dongle, and start enjoying life :)

    2. TheVogon Silver badge

      Re: I've said it before

      "Finally the agency excoriates Windows 10 for its poor security. People can use a four-digit pin to log in and purchase apps"

      But you can CHOOSE to do exactly the same on Android or IOS. This isn't a Windows security failing, it's a user choice.

      "and the CNIL notes that there's no limit to the number of times a PIN can be tried"

      Also the same as Android / IOS.

      There are also security advantages to using a PIN - if you’re using a Microsoft account to log in to your device, you’re entering a password that can be used to gain access to every single aspect of your account, including other devices and web services.However, by setting up a PIN lock, you can unlock a single device without routinely using your account password.

  2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

    Cut to the chase - how many % of global turnover can they fine them?

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Translation, let us in on the data slurp or we need some euros as compensation.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Ah, you're clearly aware of the French government's enthusiasm for surveillance and access to all communications. I haven't looked at this for a while, but didn't they once have a ban on encrypted communications?

      1. Hans 1 Silver badge

        >I haven't looked at this for a while, but didn't they once have a ban on encrypted communications?

        I think that was 20 or even 30 years ago, unsure ... then again, when is CNIL gonna slap MS for the Windows 10 upgrade fiasco ?

        1. captain veg

          The wasn't a ban on encrypted communication. There was a ban on encrypted communication using keys that were specially weakened for the NSA. This was at the time that the American government seriously thought that no other nation was capable of developing strong encryption.

          -A.

  4. Mark 85 Silver badge

    Faint hope... very faint....

    While I applaud the CNIL for their effort, There's little hope anything of substance will be changed. It might change for the French and the EU, but won't here in the States. That is unless MS does a massive re-think on this which is probably unlikely. Most likely, they'll just promise to keep the data in their data center in the EU.

    1. a_yank_lurker Silver badge

      Re: Faint hope... very faint....

      Faint hope, yes. But if one regulator starts making serious noises will others be far behind. Slurp's antics have left them vulnerable to some regulators legitimately poking around not liking the stench raised.

    2. scarletherring

      Re: Faint hope... very faint....

      "... promise to keep the data in their data center in the EU"

      Yes, especially if the recent decision declaring US govt having no authority to demand data off Irish servers holds up.

      I find this phrasing on the part of MS's deputy counsel interesting:

      "In the meantime it had adhered to the old Safe Harbor rules despite the agreement being struck down."

      He says this like Safe Harbour was struck down for being too strict!

      1. moiety

        Re: Faint hope... very faint....

        "Yes, especially if the recent decision declaring US govt having no authority to demand data off Irish servers holds up."

        Is it just me or does that judgement coming so close to the Privacy Shield announcement ring all sorts of warning bells, klaxons and other sundry alarums?

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Faint hope... very faint....

        "In the meantime it had adhered to the old Safe Harbor rules despite the agreement being found invalid." doesn't have the same ring to it, does it.

        MS have gone full on slurp mode with 10, they probably knew some states would bitch but needed to get the basic database populated so any later tracking by other means can be tied up to a person.

        I bit like non facebook users still having a facebook identity, just not a public one.

  5. This post has been deleted by its author

    1. Teiwaz Silver badge

      Re: Rather Late....

      "This is all rather a bit too late.

      Microsoft back ported the key logging to Windows 7 and 8/8.1 in July 2015 - as well as being implemented in Windows 10.

      They have had all your passwords, files/directory structure for nearly a year - so complaining now is too late to stop the rot."

      - Hmm, kind of reminds me of the Vogons response to protests when coming to demolish the earth in HHGTTG.

      I guess it takes time for any agency to get itself together to challenge a multinational, typical it's the French first, the British would just tell you to bend over more and it won't hurt as much.

      The Ubuntu tablet OS isn't there yet, and the Bq is a little lacking whomph, but it'll get there in a bit.

      1. Michael Habel Silver badge

        Re: Rather Late....

        The Ubuntu tablet OS isn't there yet, and the Bq is a little lacking whomph, but it'll get there in a bit.

        Yeah, but Canonical, need to stop using crappy chip vendos *cough* MediaTek *cough*, and get onboard with Qualcomm, or Samsung. Barring that Intel, assuming they could be assed to reintroduce the Atom again. But, that would undoubtedly affect the price. But a a full fat native Linux Phablet would be a long time coming.

        1. Neil Alexander

          Re: Rather Late....

          "But a a full fat native Linux Phablet would be a long time coming."

          The Linux community still can't get desktop computing right for "average users". They're quite some way off managing a decent tablet experience.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Rather Late....

            @ Neil Alexander

            Are you suggesting MS has got the UI right? Some would suggest they were with XP or Win 7, but they've moved on from there.

          2. oldcoder

            Re: Rather Late....

            It has been doing quite well doing desktop computing -- for about 15-20 years I've been using it. Bot at work and at home.

            You just have to get used doing without a nanny computer service - that costs you an arm and a leg.

            1. moiety

              Re: Rather Late....

              You could also Raspberry Pi...it'd be a bit lumpy for a tablet; but there's people making 7" and 10" capacitive touchscreens for them.

        2. Teiwaz Silver badge

          Re: Rather Late....

          "Yeah, but Canonical, need to stop using crappy chip vendos *cough* MediaTek *cough*,"

          - They aren't Apple. The choice of chip is wholly up to Bq, Meizu etc. I doubt they're given an option on the choice of hardware, and all Ubuntu phones released have been Android (or Flyme OS) designs repurposed.

    2. Duncan Macdonald Silver badge

      Re: Rather Late.... - Blackberry Playbook ?

      Will not run most modern apps - but does not have intrusive advertising and was built with security in mind.

      Still readily available secondhand.

      1. Kevin Johnston

        Re: Rather Late.... - Blackberry Playbook ?

        Quite, in fact you can get a refurbished Playbook so cheap that I now have a 7" Satnav in my car which has all the maps I need and route planning which all works offline....and all for £30

      2. James 51 Silver badge

        Re: Rather Late.... - Blackberry Playbook ?

        I have two already. Four or five years old and still going strong.

        1. This post has been deleted by its author

    3. Please choose a User Name

      Re: Rather Late....

      Why not just get a Windows tablet and install Ubuntu on it?

      1. bombastic bob Silver badge

        Re: Rather Late....

        "Why not just get a Windows tablet and install Ubuntu on it?"

        at least that way you'd have a choice of desktops, from Unity (*shudder*) to Mate or even KDE.

        CHOICE - something that Microsoft no longer understands [unless it is THEIR choice]

        that, and the hoovering of our personal info for their profit.

    4. Michael Habel Silver badge

      Re: Rather Late....

      I'd say get a Nexus or other non (Bootloader) locked Device, that'll let you root it. Then install Anyway, and any decent File Browser with which to de-bloat said Device. If your that inclined these could also include most of the GApps as well. Though I think that would kinda make having such a Device rather pointless. That should, assuming you can stay patched should be as secure as you can get.

  6. Please choose a User Name
    Flame

    To think that...

    There are STILL people on the internet AT THIS MOMENT that call me a tinfoil hat wearing nutjob for telling them about Windows 10's disgusting business model.

    These people STILL think Microsoft gave them the awesome gift of Windows 10 for free out of the goodness in their hearts.

    I will save this article and use it as yet another evidence for my claims.

    Never will I upgrade my personal Computer to 10. Not in a million years!

    Fuck Microsoft!

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: To think that...

      and with so many Linux distros being infect with SystemD I've move to VectorLinux which is based on Slackware.

      1. Teiwaz Silver badge
        Linux

        Re: To think that...

        "and with so many Linux distros being infect with SystemD I've move to VectorLinux which is based on Slackware."

        - Oh good grief, is there anybody else here who could do with surgery to remove the chip from their shoulder, or would like to highlight any other obscure linux distro due to it's choice of subsystem? Just so we can get it out of the way....

        Systemd does not collect data and send it anywhere. Just in case anyone who is unaware of it might think it all related to the forum topic due to a rabid A.Cs tenuously referenced comment.

        1. alisonken1
          FAIL

          Re: To think that...

          Not every body dislikes systemd because of perceived keylogging or whatever. The main reason to dislike systemd is it's an init system that has grown beyond being just an init and trying to do too much. It's not 'do one thing and do it well' - it's trying to be a swiss army knife.

          Not to mention the binary logs - that's another issue entirely.

          1. Not That Andrew
            Joke

            Re: To think that...

            I'm actually vaguely surprised systemd doesn't come with a keylogger, considering how many other things it's borged.

            1. Dadmin
              Thumb Up

              Re: To think that...

              HAHA! Plus, there's so many distros without it, who's even complaining but 100% noobs? Figure out how to make use of systemd, get a distro without it, shit, or get off the fucking pot. God damn, people who don't do anything love to complain. Find something to do and your complaint list shrinks by orders of magnitude, idiots.

              This is how I undercut many other lazier admins when I got into Solaris 10 at a site that was looking for people who already knew this new, at the time, OS; you get on it and learn how the new system services tools works, you play with the zones (if you call them containers, you're a fucking dufus. We KNOW what they are, just call them zones, pinhead), and now you're an "expert." It's how the world works, and how you undercut do-nothing assholes who won't learn anything new. I eat those garbage-people for breakfast. Yum yum. ;) Oh look, here come some idiots now...

              1. TonyJ Silver badge

                Re: To think that...

                "...HAHA! Plus, there's so many distros without it, who's even complaining but 100% noobs? Figure out how to make use of systemd, get a distro without it, shit, or get off the fucking pot. God damn, people who don't do anything love to complain. Find something to do and your complaint list shrinks by orders of magnitude, idiots.

                This is how I undercut many other lazier admins when I got into Solaris 10 at a site that was looking for people who already knew this new, at the time, OS; you get on it and learn how the new system services tools works, you play with the zones (if you call them containers, you're a fucking dufus. We KNOW what they are, just call them zones, pinhead), and now you're an "expert." It's how the world works, and how you undercut do-nothing assholes who won't learn anything new. I eat those garbage-people for breakfast. Yum yum. ;) Oh look, here come some idiots now...."

                Good to see the friendliness of the Linux community is improving...

              2. Triggerfish

                Re: To think that... @Dadmin

                Everything about your post and attitude is the reason I think Linux will never get on a desktop for the average user.

          2. Charles 9 Silver badge

            Re: To think that...

            "It's not 'do one thing and do it well' - it's trying to be a swiss army knife."

            Well, when you're running in a system where the entire landscape can change on a moment's notice (think dynamic, hotplugging buses like USB and so on, where NOTHING is fixed anymore), you pretty much HAVE to be a jack of all trades to be able to handle that curveball coming out of nowhere.

          3. SL1979

            Re: To think that...

            Um.... Last I checked, systemd does do one thing, and does it well -- Manage services.

            1. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

              Re: To think that...

              systemd does do one thing, and does it well -- Manage services.

              If it did it well, with some suggestion of valid documentation (other than the source code), it might indeed be useful. As it is, systemd does what it does very badly indeed.

          4. Vic

            Re: To think that...

            It's not 'do one thing and do it well' - it's trying to be a swiss army knife.

            Not so.

            It's trying to be the whole Swiss Army...

            Vic.

        2. oldcoder

          Re: To think that...

          No, it doesn't do THAT... but it does make the system harder to configure, harder to debug, harder to boot and shutdown...

          Just harder to control in general.

      2. bombastic bob Silver badge

        Re: To think that...

        "and with so many Linux distros being infect with SystemD I've move to VectorLinux which is based on Slackware."

        you can always use FreeBSD or one of the other BSDs. I do.

        (ghostbsd has a nice live DVD version you can boot and install from)

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: To think that...

          thinks: Hmm, had enough of Windows. Really need to make the leap to Linux. Oh, there's a million different flavours. Let's see which one I need to go for... er... ah... er, I'll carry on with Windows for now; maybe I'll look at Linux next week...

          1. agatum
            Linux

            Re: To think that...

            thinks: Hmm, had enough of Windows. Really need to make the leap to Linux. Oh, there's a million different flavours. Let's see which one I need to go for... er... ah... er, I'll carry on with Windows for now; maybe I'll look at Linux next week...

            No no no, don't quit now, you are on the path. Just go with mint, it's easy. I'll even help you install it and show you the basics.

            1. VinceH Silver badge

              Re: To think that...

              "Just go with mint, it's easy."

              I set up a bootable USB stick with Mint so that I could try it out... and discovered that my laptop won't boot it. It won't boot *anything* from USB. It doesn't have an optical drive, so creating a CD isn't a solution. (And, yes, I have checked the BIOS - once I was able to get into it - and made sure there was nothing preventing it.)

              It was cheap rubbish. I knew it was cheap rubbish when I bought it, so I got what I deserve for that.

              1. cambsukguy

                Re: To think that...

                I had a similar problem, with a not-cheap laptop.

                It turned out to be issues with whether the USB drive concerned is actually bootable, a 'fixed drive' or a 'removable drive'.

                Windows would not make a bootable system on the Sandisk I had because it would not be bootable if it did.

                I looked around for one that would do the job but actually bought an external USB DVD drive, for £11, which solved all the problems and the issue of not having a DVD drive too.

                It turned out later that there was a small app you can download, mentioned here, the link it has is an executable file: download http://guysimplify.com/boot-and-run-dos-from-a-usb-flash-drive/

                'Course, it might be your laptop.

                1. VinceH Silver badge

                  Re: To think that...

                  "'Course, it might be your laptop."

                  As of twenty minutes ago, I'm even more sure that it is than I was before.

                  I've had a quiet morning where I'm working today, so I've dragged out a laptop the company has spare and used that very USB stick I couldn't boot from on my own laptop to boot into Linux Mint. I had to change the relevant BIOS settings to allow it, but I now have Mint up and running on it.

                  The only snag with trying it on that laptop is that the installation discs for the Windows software that I want to try under Linux (such as Sage, which I absolutely need) are all at home.

                  Still, I can have a little play as the day goes on, so that's something.

                  1. VinceH Silver badge

                    Re: To think that...

                    I realised I had a copy of the Sage installation disc on the hard drive of this computer (I copied it via another machine in order to install it in the first place). So I copied that to another USB stick and, after installing WINE, tried installing Sage from that.

                    The Sage System Checker says my computer doesn't have enough free memory; it needs 2GB, but it thinks there is none - but everything else gets a tick. Proceeding to install (the other option being to give up there and then) leads to an error from InstallShield: "1608: Unable to create InstallDriver instance, return code -2147221164."

                    Searches for that give results that are very Windows specific, such as try right-clicking and running as admin. (Didn't see "Have you tried switching it off and on again" though.)

                    On the basis that error is to do with the installer, not Sage itself, I've also tried copying my actual Sage installation via a USB stick - but trying to run that under WINE just gives a moment of hourglass activity, then nothing.

                    Trying another approach entirely, I've also installed GnuCash... and after a little bit of playing with it, uninstalled it again as being entirely unsuitable as a replacement for Sage.

                    Ho hum. I will try again at some point, but for now I can't spare any more time. :/

                    Note: I use Sage Line 50 2013 (v19) - my lack of success with that version may not apply to other versions. It also might not apply to that version with other people, given that I am a complete Linux noob.

                  2. Uncle Slacky Silver badge
                    Stop

                    Re: To think that...

                    You might want to try something like Plop Boot Manager - for PCs that won't boot from floppy, USB etc. as standard: https://www.plop.at/en/bootmanagers.html

              2. billium

                Re: To think that...

                Pixie Boot ? :)

              3. Mephistro Silver badge

                Re: To think that... (VinceH)

                Have you tried updating the BIOS? I remember having read about a similar problem in some forum a few years ago, and the guy fixed it with a BIOS update.*

                *Note: Unless it's one of those Chinese no-brand laptops they sell in the 'net, in which case you're probably screwed.

                1. moiety

                  Re: To think that... (VinceH)

                  Thank you Billum and Uncle Slacky. Useful things. Once you get past the "pixie boots" from ebay.

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: To think that...

        "nd with so many Linux distros being infect with SystemD"

        At least the source is available for knowledgeable users to check

  7. ashdav

    Even so..

    Allez les bleu for giving this a go.

    Bon chance.

  8. Dwarf Silver badge

    Why

    Why hasn't our (pick your locale) government taken a similar stance too ?

    Good on yer .. Vive la France !

    1. Oengus Silver badge

      Re: Why

      "Why hasn't our (pick your locale) government taken a similar stance too ?"

      Simple answer... They want to be able to get (buy) the data from Micro$oft... Most governments don't give a rats arse for our privacy.

  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Apple

    I hate to say it, but it looks like Apple is looking better and better. Microsoft has been going downhill for years.

    I believe with newcomers (kids) leaning towards Apple, OSX will be the most widely used operating system in the next 7-10 years and Microsoft will be in the minority. Unless they change their ways, and fast.

    1. Frank N. Stein

      Re: Apple

      With you on that. I have two macs that I do work on, and only use my Windows 10 PC for playing Racing SIM games that don't run on the Mac. No point in using Windows 10 for anything serious, beyond gaming.

    2. a_yank_lurker Silver badge

      Re: Apple

      Apple seems to understand the consumer market better than Slurp. This may be due to Fruit being a hardware vendor first and providing software to make their kit work out of the box. As a hardware vendor, software sales is less important to them. What Slurp forgot is how they became dominant. It was combination of marketing, illegal deals, luck, and competitor blundering. This is likely to be a one time effect for Slurp. Fruit has survived and Chocolate Factory is well aware of Slurp's history.

      As far as future market share, I suspect Fruit will grow some but not to 50%. The OEMs will be looking for an OS to push and some Linux distro/derivative is a good candidate for them. Many are testing the waters with Chromebooks.

      1. LDS Silver badge

        Re: Apple

        Apple's huge profits makes it uninterested in slurping data, even if it's a stylish hardware vendor with software on top (but its prices will keep anyway a lot of customers away, and those profits also come from being a high-end brand only).

        What surprise me is exactly being a software vendor Microsoft should be very careful about killing its golden eggs chicken - but it's doing exactly that. It's trying to alienate its customers from its products.

        Nadella is trying to reshape Microsoft alike Google - thinking to find profits in a different business than selling software - but using software as a Trojan horse. In other news, Skype will be used again to make all the traffic go through MS servers - another evidence of the shift.

        He's just risking to kill the software business, without finding money in a market Google already dominates.

    3. Rufus

      Re: Apple slurping...

      It's not as if Apple isn't also slurping away all the time:

      http://lifehacker.com/lets-talk-about-apples-privacy-issues-1655944758

      But as with both Microsoft and Apple, if you understand what it's doing, why it's doing it, you can make an informed decision to set your privacy settings accordingly!

    4. Wade Burchette

      Re: Apple

      There is only one reason why I do not want an Apple computer: it is very difficult to repair yourself. I had to remove a hard drive from a dead first generation iMac. It took me 15 minutes just to remove the rear cover because visible screws are somehow the 8th deadly sin. On a newer iMac, I was asked to replace a failed hard drive. It took me an hour just to get to the drive. I like to service my own equipment whenever possible. And not just computers, anything I can. Apple use of proprietary screws just rubs me the wrong way.

      1. Unicornpiss Silver badge
        Happy

        Re: Apple

        I'm not an Apple fanboi by any stretch of the imagination, but for those that think Apple is hard to work on, I have this to say: "Microsoft Surface Pro"

        1. Kiwi Silver badge
          Linux

          Re: Apple

          but for those that think Apple is hard to work on, I have this to say: "Microsoft Surface Pro?"

          FTFY.

    5. ShaolinTurbo

      Re: Apple

      Im starting to lean to Apple too. Linux is still not refined enough and certain apps unsupported. Apple also has some privacy concerns but it seems that you can opt out of them easier and stay opted out.

      Windows as a service is way too unpredictable. I see on a test laptop that Win 10 likes to reset app defaults and privacy settings after major updates. Until I can turn telemetry OFF and not just switch to Basic then I wont use it. Its not just privacy either. Ive lost all trust in MS to do the right thing and do it in my interests. They add and remove features at a whim and I actually find Win10 to be clunky.

      Once my current laptop dies I'm leaning towards a Macbook Pro. I will just have to take the £££ hit !

      1. Adair

        Re: Apple

        If Linux isn't 'refined enough' then certainly neither are Windows nor OS-X.

        For the record: ALL OSes are steaming piles of digital poo.

        Which ever one you pick you have to be willing to get your hands (and/or your conscience) dirty keeping the whole steaming pile up and running. That's the way it is.

        By all means prefer one (or more) over others, but don't make it a religious issue, and don't pretend that your preferred pile of poo stinks any less than anyone else's, because it doesn't - it just stinks differently, but stink it surely does, even if you have got so used to it you don't really notice any more.

  10. MrTuK

    There was a Gov Petition to try and sort this shit out with MS and Win 10 - I was surprised it didn't get many votes, either there are a lot more sheep than I originally thought or just not enough people were aware of it !

    https://www.change.org/p/the-electonic-frontier-foundation-have-the-eff-investigate-microsoft-for-malicious-practices-regarding-windows-10

    Wow only 5,851 votes - This is really sad, so many sheep here in UK !!!!

    I am sure we have a lot more intelligent people that were just unaware of this petition, but just how many I am clueless !

    I am happy to see the French going after MS, but so sad that even after Brexit the UK population just have bury their heads in the sand attitude !

    What does it say for the future, maybe we deserve the new Stalin and her Stasi followers to rule us !

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      It might have done better if it hadn't been linked to the EFF nut jobs.

    2. Dave 15 Silver badge

      Petition?

      First people have to know about it... not easy when you are proposing something that would make it harder for NSA and GCHQ (aka May) to check your underwear.

      Second, even if people did know about it and it was supported it is even less likely to actually make any difference to the government and ensure they act than the Brexit vote (which has admittedly claimed one PM to be replaced by a PrimeIntrusiveTyrant...) Certainly all those that voted in the recent referendum must share one disappointment, whether you backed it or not seeing the government just plain ignore you is really p*** poor in a 'democracy'

    3. Not That Andrew
      FAIL

      change.org

      The only government that pays attention to Change.org is the People's Republic of San Serriffe (and possible Portland city council). It's just a way for lazy people on the Internet to pretend they made a difference.

  11. elDog Silver badge

    So far Redmond is staying silent on the issue. ®

    What is this "Redmond" you speak about? It looks like a fly-speck on a geographic map of the world.

    Does anyone believe that Redmond is in control of its destiny anymore? Perhaps back in the days when Gates stole PCDOS to create the bastards that became MS DOS/Windows.

    Now the Redmond empire is insinuated throughout the money-markets, the industrial/military/research complexes, the desktops of your children, parents, and yea grandparents.

    Eurocrats and well-meaning tech-crats can wish for something different, but until google takes over, we'll still need to pay some tokens (me, my MS Mouse).

    1. Dadmin
      Meh

      Re: So far Redmond is staying silent on the issue. ®

      The Slate Tabs, the Azure cloud ops, Xbox sort of, and the O365 ventures seem to be okay. Do not count them out just because they completely and utterly fucked up Windows 10 Desktop Edition for Suckers and Other Morons Who Thought They Got Something For Nothing. No one is complaining about Win10 Core on the Raspberry Pi! So there's some "silverlight" lining the clouds, as it were.

  12. Frank N. Stein

    "Microsoft will release an updated Privacy Statement"?? How about Microsoft get rid of Satya Nadella and perhaps hire someone else who has the vision and the skills to lead this company. Nadella is a joke, compared to Steve Balmer. Even Balmer didn't have this many missteps and failures on his watch.

    1. bombastic bob Silver badge

      "Microsoft will release an updated Privacy Statement"?? How about Microsoft get rid of Satya Nadella and perhaps hire someone else who has the vision and the skills to lead this company.

      you and I should submit our resumes

    2. Jack of Shadows Silver badge

      He came from "Servers & Tools" and all he has wrought are facets around them. Seems to make sense (Office 365, Azure services), it's the tools part which isn't working as well. He's desperate to get everyone back using Microsoft tooling and the market remains steadfastly fragmented, not one tool to rule them all. Really reminds me of IBM's software shenanigans back in the day.

      1. hplasm Silver badge
        Devil

        "...it's the tools part which isn't working as well."

        That's because the tools are in charge.

  13. Dr Scrum Master

    Constitutional Right

    But in the Land of the Free software is Free Speech, so being instructed to make any change to software is an infringement of Merkins' constitutional rights!

    1. Richard 12 Silver badge

      Re: Constitutional Right

      The US Constitution has no legal standing outside of the USA.

      If they want to sell in the EU, they have to follow EU rules.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Constitutional Right

        "If they want to sell in the EU, they have to follow EU rules."

        And if you want American cooperation when the Russians come knocking, you better toe the line...

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Constitutional Right

          which is what Herr Trump said.

          Didn't realise he reads El Reg.

    2. Solmyr ibn Wali Barad

      Re: Constitutional Right

      Ah, so that's the thing about Windows 10. All it has ever wanted is to speak freely.

      Now I even feel bad about silencing one. Poor thing.

      Well, in my defence, I thought of it in different terms - taking it for a new tool that is not up to snuff - but apparently missing a point then.

  14. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    SatNad the big cloud data collector

    I would stop Automatic Updates and enable the users to opt out of telemetry stuff just like they can opt out of browser tracking.

    But I doubt SatNad will change anytime soon. You can tell he has zero respect for the average Windows user by pushing out all those nag screens and nag popups, urging the user to upgrade to Windows 10.

    This would have been an outrage back in the day (which also started the entire industry of adware/spyware scanners and blockers).

    But because it's Microsoft, it's somehow inexplicably tolerated.

  15. GrumpenKraut Silver badge
    Trollface

    We built ...

    > We built strong privacy protections into Windows 10, ...

    Yeah, rrright. MS face ---------------------------->

  16. Adam Jarvis

    About Fcuking Time...

    (with UK regulators sitting on the hands as usual)

    The Windows 7 Forced Upgrade is very discriminating against partially sighted and disabled users, where is the punishment for this?

    How about setting the benchmark regards Privacy, Accessibility/Useability - Microsoft, get yourself out of the gutter.

  17. raving angry loony

    Rarity

    France, one of the VERY few countries where "consumer protection" has any meaning whatsoever. The only country to ever force a company to refund an unused, unwanted, bundled copy of "Microsoft", for instance.

    French bureaucracy might be a deserved subject of many jokes, but one cannot fault their continued attempts to force corporations to pay attention to the concept of "don't screw the consumer".

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Rarity

      "France, one of the VERY few countries where "consumer protection" has any meaning whatsoever. The only country to ever force a company to refund an unused, unwanted, bundled copy of "Microsoft", for instance."

      Well, tell that to all Paris people abused by garage owners, plumbers, etc ... There's even this urban legend stating "you need to change your car battery every year", coming from abusive garage owners screwing up their gulible customers every time it's a bit cold and their car doesn't start due to oil being too thick.

      In reality, extorsion is a perfect viable business in France, provided you stick to big towns, where you can fuck off, after the facts, and never meet your victim again.

      As for CNIL, they're just doing communication, because of being basically silent for now a decade, which is beginning to show. There'll be nothing, past this.

      1. raving angry loony

        Re: Rarity

        Quite familiar with the arnaqueurs de Paris, thanks. Especially the little shit in the 15eme with the phone store, whose only goal is to rip people off using sleight-of-hand "fixes" where he then returns the broken item to you. But that's Paris for you, the anus of France.

        However, there are rules involved, and if you take the time to find the right bureaucrat who can apply those rules, you too can have the satisfaction of watching the little extortionate shits get taken down. It'll take time, it'll mean dealing with the bureaucracy, but here's a hint: the ONLY way to navigate the French bureaucracy is to treat it like a feudal state, and the bureaucrats are the new nobility.

        Don't try to do things yourself, they don't deal with peasants, meaning anyone who isn't a bureaucrat or rich enough to buy one. Find your local "knight" or "baron" who is willing to take the case on your behalf. Elected official, don't bother. Their professional bureaucratic assistant, definitely. THEY will be able to deal with the bureaucracy. Admittedly finding that knight can be a challenge, and convincing them that you have worthwhile cause can be difficult, but it can be done.

  18. Zakhar

    M$, you hypocrits!

    "We will work closely with the CNIL (...) to understand the agency’s concerns fully."

    Unless all M$ PR have been living in caves during the last year, a lot of people have already expressed all those concerns to great extent.

    Anyway it is good the CNIL expressed it publicly so that the thugs at M$ have an "official notice" of what anyone else finds is a wrongdoing.

    Bravo la CNIL !

  19. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    About the only way you're going to get a company to be honest is to deny them their market. What if some European authority gave Microsoft (and just about any other company doing business in the EU) an ultimatum: NO products can contain personally identifiable information AT ALL (if it MUST as a means of doing business, the customer MUST go through a government agency to handle the information) NOR transmit or receive ANYTHING other than that which is ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL for operation (such as a request for security updates, and nothing but a request in and nothing but actual security updates out). Anyone not found doing this AND ONLY this by the deadline will be denied access to the entire European market for it and any and all subsidiaries or proxies until it is done. I would think being declared persona non grata for the entire continent would draw some attention, wouldn't you?

    1. TRT Silver badge

      Government agency you say?......

      1. Charles 9 Silver badge

        Well, SOMEONE has to be entrusted with your personal data: for census, benefits, taxes, and so on if nothing else. Kinda comes with the territory, so they're going to have your data anyway as a matter of course. Anything otherwise and you're talking anarchy. They're the sovereign: the ultimate authority in the country. Given that, might as well limit yourself to the one entity in the country that MUST AND WILL have it.

        1. Dave 15 Silver badge

          Trust the government...

          Not a hope, they are the primary driver of this slurping in the first place. May wants MORE of it.

          And as for the census... dont forget the BRITISH government spent BRITISH tax payers money to employ an AMERICAN company (with a lot of profit) to gather the data... meaning that by American law it was available to the Americans... so we paid the Americans so we could give them what they wanted... Bizarre.

          Use a British company... not the British government... tanks from Spain (ready to defend Gib?) planes from the US (not as good as the harrier, not as good as tsr2... but at least foreign), police vans from Germany, police cars from Sweden, NHS software from India (well it would have been if it had been delivered).... the list goes on.

          1. Charles 9 Silver badge

            Re: Trust the government...

            "Not a hope, they are the primary driver of this slurping in the first place. May wants MORE of it."

            Well, that's the price of admission. And you can't exactly leave it because EVERY country wants the same data for the sake of its sovereign security. Any option that ignores that reality is basically asking for anarchy.

  20. TRT Silver badge

    Windows 10 is VERY secure, by design...

    because Microsoft don't want anyone else cashing in on that lovely, profitable stream of personal information.

  21. alain williams Silver badge

    Can you see what MS sends to itself ?

    I have seen articles describe in vague terms what this telemetry data is supposed to be, but I have not seen anyone actually reading and inspecting the data - which is encrypted when it is collected and stored on the PC prior to transmission.

    Has anyone decoded what is sent by their PC ?

    Until you can see it I don't think that you can really believe what you are told.

    1. Kiwi Silver badge
      Linux

      Re: Can you see what MS sends to itself ?

      Until you can see it I don't think that you can really believe what you are told.

      If it's stored in a fashion on a user's machine where the user cannot easily read it should they choose (" but I have not seen anyone actually reading and inspecting the data - which is encrypted when it is collected ") - why? What does MS have to hide about what they're collecting from their users?

      Encrypted so another user cannot see it - fine. Encrypted so I cannot see it should I want? Not at all fine.

  22. Unicornpiss Silver badge
    Meh

    Privacy? How about basic usability?

    I agree that MS should make it far easier to opt out on data collection. Or at least reward you for opting in, perhaps with insider trials of software or perks. But I'd also be happy if they'd just make the damn thing more usable. Realistically, we and many other companies are going to be stuck with their "Enterprise" version of this... operating system... when Win 7 LTS winds down, as we are deeply in bed with MS for SharePoint and other products. I have been trying to give it a chance. I can work around the annoying menu system, and the uglified desktop interface. (Aero was clean and elegant) But I can't get my dual monitor setup to work reliably, and there appears to be a lot of missing legacy support that even 7 had, which is anathema for large companies. The less said about the Edge browser, the better. The dumbing down with no improvement in the update process is frustrating too, as is the whole trend of "less is more" when trying to figure out what your computer is doing from the scant info that MS shares with the user.

    True, the video issues that I and others have been experiencing are mostly down to the crappy Intel drivers, but the overall effort feels like it was rushed to market before it was close to being ready. Which is miserable for a consumer-grade OS, but unforgivable for an Enterprise OS, at least one that wants to be taken seriously. And maybe, oh maybe, MS will some day learn to have apps not steal focus, something that Linux has done right for decades.

    1. Charles 9 Silver badge

      Re: Privacy? How about basic usability?

      Well, that's what's called a "captive market". If you depend on SharePoint, and support is a legal requirement, then you're kinda stuck with an "all or nothing" situation. So you end up asking yourself what it's going to take you to go nuclear and abandon EVERYTHING, even at expense to your business (or in my case, at expense to my massive game collection, most of which is strictly Windows-ONLY).

      1. Kiwi Silver badge
        Linux

        Re: Privacy? How about basic usability?

        (or in my case, at expense to my massive game collection, most of which is strictly Windows-ONLY).

        Or you could use WINE, Linux versions and, heaven forbid, DUAL-BOOT! (What, you're not actually planning on doing anything needing security or trustworthyness on Windows are you???????). If a blob like me can do it, I'm sure you can.

        (I'm also loving the video editing software freely available on Linux - KDEnLive.. Course, last time I bothered editing videos XP was a fairly new OS and Vista was yet to be inflicted on the world! (and the time before that I think colour monitors were yet to be invented let alone a school have a computer that could edit more than a 2 line text file, sometime around '85 if my brain is functioning rightly)

        Games I play usually on Linux : Homeworld Remastered, original Homeworld series inc Cataclysm [ducks] (game play in the original is something else, sadly the remastered version uses the HW2 engine) SOASER, CNC First Decade and Tib3, plus many oldies under Dosbox (Carrier Command still being one of my favourites!). Tib and SOASER don't play so well under Windows (Win7, ATI 1G Mobility graphics, 8G ram on the machine) at the levels I push things to.

        1. Charles 9 Silver badge

          Re: Privacy? How about basic usability?

          Many games are Windows-ONLY, WINE-INCOMPATIBLE, and VM-UNFRIENDLY. Plus I don't like rebooting unless I HAVE to, which is usually only about once a month (too many times I've seen machines try to reboot and fail, so it's a real uptime issue here). Show me games like Fallout 4 running on Linux at the same speed as Windows and I'll consider it. Otherwise, call me when the Linux Steam library gets close to the Windows Steam library. Plus there's DX12 coming up, and it has more support than that for Vulkan. SERIOUS PC gamers tend to stay away from Linux. Otherwise, we'd be seeing professional gaming rigs (such as that used for competitions) running on Linux. Until then...

          1. Kiwi Silver badge

            Re: Privacy? How about basic usability?

            Many games are Windows-ONLY, WINE-INCOMPATIBLE, and VM-UNFRIENDLY.

            And which of these do you use?

            Plus I don't like rebooting unless I HAVE to, which is usually only about once a month (too many times I've seen machines try to reboot and fail, so it's a real uptime issue here)

            If your machines are really that bad, you really need to get off Windows. Servers I only reboot when they need it which is rare (kernel updates etc). My media machine only got rebooted for the first time in a year or so because it got a new disk added (runs standard Mint). It needed cleaning as well (fans etc)

            But my laptop and desktops? They get turned off when not in use, and only stay on over night if I am doing something that needs it. The media centre does any stuff that's not games that'll take a long time. That way I don't keep machines on unnecessarily.

            Oh, and given how "stable" Windows remains after chopping and changing games, with all the crap that stays stuck in ram, I have my doubts that you can really keep it up for days at a time, let alone weeks or months. Not forgetting also that updates on doze require a reboot for making really stupidly minor updates to the system. Oh, and isn't there something like Win 10's forced updates rebooting the machine when it wants not when you want without you having a say in the matter? Hmm... Someone frying some flounder nearby?

            As to DX12/Vulkan, I guess no games are using Vulkan as it seems only the one is using DX12. I've never seen Fallout 4 but everything I have tends to run better on Mint/Wine. In fact I am actually thinking now that maybe I can finally kill off Windows completely. Thanks, you may've just gained me a few gigs of space and few hours a month no longer supporting windows on my machine... Though I might have to try this "Fallout" game, comes very highly reccomended

            1. Charles 9 Silver badge

              Re: Privacy? How about basic usability?

              "And which of these do you use?"

              Check out the Steam Library. Compare the size of the Linux one with the Windows one. Most of the newer ones use cutting-edge stuff including DX11. WINE stinks at cutting edge. Fallout 4 happens to be one of the most prominent. We can probably also throw in Metal Gear Solid 5 and the Final Fantasy XIII trilogy.

              Put it this way. If Linux gaming really were all that, (A) Valve would be having no difficulty getting mainstream developers to code for Linux to get away from Windows' thumb, yet you have developers like Bethesda Softworks (who made Fallout 4) going on record saying that developing on Linux is too mercurial. And (B), you'd see the professional gaming circuit, who thrives on the cutting edge, and who do it for a living, using Linux gaming boxes to extract the last bit of performance out of their rigs. Yet we don't see that.

              "Not forgetting also that updates on doze require a reboot for making really stupidly minor updates to the system."

              That's what I meant by monthly. Most of them update system components, which is why they require a reboot. About the same thing happened when I was on Xubuntu (yes, I tried Linux firsthand, and I didn't like it). As for rebooting, consider the target audience (Joe Stupids who don't understand the concept of rebooting). If they don't reboot, they can get pwned and Microsoft gets the blame for it. Sounds like a case of "damned if you do, damned if you don't," only they have more "Joe Stupid" Windows customers than sophisticated ones, and the latter tend to have enterprise contracts with different rules.

              "If your machines are really that bad, you really need to get off Windows."

              Wish I could, but like most people the software I use everyday has no analogue anywhere else meaning we're kinda stuck here. That's what you don't seem to understand. When someone is stuck in a leaky boat in the middle of the shark-filled ocean, there's really only one option for you. Such as it is for most people: there are no alternatives.

  23. 101

    Can you hear me now?

    French say Windows is insecure and intrusive.

    MS says we hear you.

    End of report.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Can you hear me now?

      Or Microsoft say...

      You don't have to say anything, we know what you're searched and are thinking. We see you have the enhanced daily telemetry set to on. When you searched 'Windows 10 privacy settings' we also gave you web pages on the benefits of sharing your data across the cloud with Microsoft.

      This fits with our Corporate responsibilities to make web search a safer environment for all, by countering extremist views.

  24. Jedipadawan

    What about the US?

    Trouble is that even if France wants Windows to run the data tap off, I can guarentee that the FBI, CLI, US Government as a whole, MI5, MI6 and various other countries won't LET Windows 10 turn the tap off!

    I am sure that Windows 10 was designed with 'fronttdoor' access for interest parties who I am sur also pressured Microsoft for an amicable deal ... and allowed them to keep and sell they data in exchange for access to EVERYTHING.

    http://gizmodo.com/fbi-insists-on-access-to-encryption-despite-warnings-it-1716603473

    This is going to make it difficult for Microsoft to step back from this.

    Hmmm... It also party explains the forcefeeding of Windows 10 on Windows machines. Methinks the US Government wanted those frontdoors.

    For me, I moved out of the West entirely to a country which does not have the IT skill to spy on my over move. And I want Mint Linux KDE 4 years ago and haven't regretted it for a moment. I like having an OS that works with me and not against me, is easy to use, where I can put it on as many machines as Iike without endless fee or activation and I get to download and keep the software install! No adware, trialware, no "I don't know what UI I am" software... Linux has come a LONG way since the 1990's! So now a WIndows (OS) free house.

    And now the only data stolen from me is my emails sent back to friends and family in the UK.

    1. Charles 9 Silver badge

      Re: What about the US?

      But what of something you really want (or worse, NEED) is Windows-only, WINE-incompatible, and VM-unfriendly?

      1. Kiwi Silver badge
        Linux

        Re: What about the US?

        But what of something you really want (or worse, NEED) is Windows-only, WINE-incompatible, and VM-unfriendly?

        Such as?

        1. Charles 9 Silver badge

          Re: What about the US?

          Fallout 4, for starters. Bethesda has sworn off Linux, so no port is likely, and it's a near-cutting-edge game so WINE won't hack it and VM's can't do it without a serious performance penalty. And let's not get to incoming DX12 games which require Win10 and which WINE won't even begin to cover for a while yet. There's a very good reason the Linux Steam library is less than half the size of the Windows Steam library.

  25. Florida1920 Silver badge
    Childcatcher

    Privacy protetion

    Translation: We're good at hiding the ways we spy on users, for our own protection.

  26. JLV Silver badge
    Thumb Up

    I rarely say this, despite being born French, but...

    Vive la France!

    And fuck you and your unwanted, unhelpful and un-opt-outable data collection, MS! This is exactly the kind of abuse that consumer data protection laws are supposed to cover, so it's very good to see them used in this context.

    Seriously, even if you like MS, this is actually a good thing for them. This allows them to climb down from their ridiculous telemetry program without losing face. Or tips the hand of their executives who support a return to sanity.

    Even if (big IF) you don't assume nefarious intent behind it, and only the desire to gather unbiased usage stats (i.e. without the pro-MS bias that would come from an opt-in telemetry user base), the goodwill cost of that data harvesting (and the Win10 install nagging) has been tremendous. Well on a par with their late 90s monopoly trial dirty laundry in terms of public perception.

    1. This post has been deleted by its author

      1. JLV Silver badge

        Re: I rarely say this, despite being born French, but...

        No one says you should trust them. I don't like them much myself and I am not trying to convince you that they are trustworthy.

        But for people who want to use Windows, this is potentially very good news. Then they can turn off the telemetry, as people have been asking for the last 18 months. Well, maybe that's jumping ahead a little bit, but I really hope that the French initiative, esp if it is supported by the EU, results in an opt-out option.

        Just like they had to offer alternative browsers to customers in Europe, on XP. And, yes, I also remember that they "forgot" to put in that option when 7 (Vista?) came out, so that users were once again stuck on IE.

        Trust them? No, not really. Distrust and verify would be more appropriate. But I also don't think a world with only Linux and Apple as choices would be a great result, so a better behaved MS is a good thing.

  27. fidodogbreath Silver badge
    Coffee/keyboard

    Presumably said with a straight face

    "We built strong privacy protections into Windows 10"

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  28. Captain Badmouth
    Paris Hilton

    Bravo!

    Sacre bleu! Quel domage pour MicroMerde. Allez France.

    2017 : Paris, printemps et pas de telemetrie.....

    Pardon, il n'y a pas des accents egumes.

  29. ATeal

    Finally someone noticed

    I was really shocked that world didn't turn even a little bit slower with Windows 10.

    I actually care about that so naturally I was already on Linux.

  30. Howard Hanek Bronze badge
    Childcatcher

    Opens Frightening Possibilities

    Hypothetically what's to prevent blackmail and extortion by the vendor or their employees or anyone who can steal the data from the vendor? .......and 'Where would you like to go today?'.....

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