back to article Surface Book nightmare: Microsoft won't fix 'Sleep of Death' bug

In its most recent quarterly earnings report, Microsoft highlighted its increasingly popular Surface line as the growth leader in its More Personal Computing line of business. Surface led the category with 61 per cent growth in constant currency, a rise driven by the top products in the line, the Surface Pro 4 tablet and the …

  1. James 51 Silver badge

    I was wondering if a surface pro 4 was worth it. Now I know it is not. Would be interesting to know if the problem occurs with other OS installed.

    1. Bob Vistakin
      Pint

      Can I just say

      How much I've enjoyed all El Regs stories on the beast this week?

      It's been epic, thanks a million..

      1. ATeal

        Re: Can I just say

        No dev-ops and loads of slagging off of microsoft. I fucking love it.

    2. abooker

      I've had the SB about 6 weeks now. As soon as I got it, I started having the Sleep of Death issues as discussed in the article. It did my head in that a $3000 laptop and this could happen.

      Realising it wasn't me, but Microsoft I decided the best thing i could do was alter my habits and wait for a working update. I changed my power button setting to:

      - Power Button - Sleep - With the intention of using this when i expected to be back at my machine within the 2 hour Sleep of Death time limit.

      - Close the Lid - To hibernate with the intention of closing the lid if i thought i was done for the day or an extended period.

      I must admit I don't have the discipline so i just use the Power Button. And you know what, for the last month the issue has practically disappeared. Instead of it being a multiple times a day, it has now only happened twice (still disappointing, but i can live with that).

      Can't really add much more to the discussion other than it has been largely resolved for me and I return to feeling positive about the machine.

      As for my Use Case: I largely work with 20-30 tabs of chrome, office, creative suite, visual studio, sql server, so in theory plenty of processes to fight sleep. I don't have a dock, but the machine is on/off, on power, not on power, in and out of tablet. I feel i give it a broad range of use and no problems (admittedly i still hold my breath when i hit the power button...)

      1. Notas Badoff
        Joke

        You need a ...

        You need a new drug

        One that won't make you sick

        One that won't make you crash your slab

        Or make you feel three feet thick

        .

        You need a new drug

        One that does what it should

        One that won't make you feel too bad

        One that won't make you feel too good

        .

        One that won't make you nervous

        Wondering what to do

        . . . . .

        1. Bluto Nash
          Joke

          Re: You need a ...

          One that won't make you nervous

          Wondering what to do

          One that will not greet you

          With a screen that has turned blue

        2. bjamieson

          Re: You need a ...

          Thanx Huey... that's News...

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Try turning off the Windows 10 Fast Boot.

    3. beavershoes

      You cannot install another OS on the Surface Pro

      Surface Pro's come with UEFI enabled making it impossible to install another OS on them. If you buy a Surface Pro, you are stuck with Windows.

      1. James O'Shea Silver badge

        Re: You cannot install another OS on the Surface Pro

        "Surface Pro's come with UEFI enabled making it impossible to install another OS on them. If you buy a Surface Pro, you are stuck with Windows."

        Stop talking rot. All Apple desktops and laptops have shipped with UEFI since 2006. By definition they don't ship with Windows, and it is perfectly possible to put non-Apple OSes, including Windows and all current Linux distros, on them. In addition, I have a desktop machine with an ASUS motherboard which shipped with UEFI. It's running BSD at the moment. I am not alone in running assorted non-MS OSes on systems which shipped with UEFI. I suspect that you have a problem with Secure Boot, not UEFI. See further http://www.uefi.org/sites/default/files/resources/UEFI_Secure_Boot_in_Modern_Computer_Security_Solutions_2013.pdf

        In particular, note the following, quoted from the above:

        "Secure Boot is an optional feature of the UEFI specification. The choice of whether to implement the feature and the details of its implementation (from an end-user standpoint) are business decisions made by Original Equipment Manufacturers (OEMs)."

        Note also:

        "Users may disable Secure Boot entirely, using a system setup screen enabled at boot time. Each manufacturer has its own interface for this option. In all cases, end user must be physically present to establish proof of possession (POP) associated with the changes. With the Secure Boot feature disabled, the system can boot legacy operating systems, as well as systems that do not support Secure Boot. However, when Secure Boot is disabled, the feature is no longer protecting the system, leaving it vulnerable to rootkit and bootkit attacks.

        UEFI Secure Boot also provides an interface that allows a system owner to take control of the system’s security credentials. This interface may or may not be available, depending on the system and its manufacturer. In circumstances where it is available, system owners can clear and reinstall the Secure Boot database and register their own keys and signatures. This can either supplement or completely replace the factory set. If a particular system supports the clearing of Secure Boot databases, the option will be displayed in the firmware menus."

        I don't own a Surface anything, and, given their cost and the problem noted in the article, am unlikely to buy one, so I don't know how MS implemented Secure Boot.

        1. Richard Plinston Silver badge

          Re: You cannot install another OS on the Surface Pro

          > The choice of whether to implement the feature and the details of its implementation (from an end-user standpoint) are business decisions made by Original Equipment Manufacturers (OEMs)."

          > so I don't know how MS implemented Secure Boot.

          You acknowledge that manufacturers can choose to enforce Secure Boot or not, you admit that you have no clue about what Microsoft have done, have provided several irrelevant and spurious examples about how others have done it (including non-Windows machines) and start by claiming the previous poster was talking rot about Surface Pro.

          I suggest that offer an apology to previous poster and admit that you are completely clueless.

          1. James O'Shea Silver badge

            Re: You cannot install another OS on the Surface Pro

            I suggest, again, that his problem is with Secure Boot, not with UEFI. His statement that you can't change OSes on a Surface Book because of UEFI is incorrect. Even if it's true that you can't changes OSes on a Surface Book, something which I suspect deeply to be true 'cause that's just the way that Microsoft rolls, it is because of Secure Boot. Not UEFI. I repeat that multiple vendors ship systems with UEFI which _can_ have multiple OSes installed without problems, because of the way that they did nor did not implement Secure Boot, which as I pointed out in my first post is both optional and can be set up so as to be either bypassed or outright turned off depending on vendor settings.

            One more time: his problem is with Secure Boot, not UEFI.

            If he had posted to the effect that Surface Books can't change OSes because of Secure Boot, I would have had only one problem: has this been experimentally verified? Given the price of the thing, and the fat that this is, after all, a Microsoft product, I suspect that I know the answer and I know that I will not be buying one to find out for certain. If I'm going to spend $3200 on a laptop, something quite unlikely, I'll spend it on a 15" Mac Book Pro (Retina). I _know_ that I can install the OS of my liking on that machine. Apple will even provide Window drivers for it, for free. Linux or BSD drivers would be somewhat harder to get, so some hardware might not work properly. It will, however, boot. And it won't crash on waking from sleep.

            1. jaime

              Re: You cannot install another OS on the Surface Pro

              Yup Apple is light years ahead of getting a laptop to resume from sleep using their OS compared to Windows or even any Linux distort I know of. You just have to watch any of their WWDC video's on the subject to see how much thought and work they put into it and getting it to work with newer Intel hardware. If Microsoft is doing the same I haven't heard of it?

            2. J__M__M

              Re: You cannot install another OS on the Surface Pro

              One more time: his problem is with Secure Boot, not UEFI...

              No, his problem is with Microsoft. Downvote away, you pussies.

              1. Kristian Walsh Silver badge

                The most depressing thing...[ was Re: You cannot install another OS on the Surface Pro]

                ... is that one minute of searching the web would have revealed that the original poster was talking though his hole. Of course you can install Linux on a Surface Book, just like you can install it on previous Intel Surface models:

                https://www.reddit.com/r/SurfaceLinux/comments/3qcqha/ubuntu_on_surface_book/

                So, Ubuntu 14.04 seems to work well; 15.x has problems with drivers, but to get to the point of having problems with drivers means that neither UEFI nor SecureBoot are preventing installation. Can we just give up this "UEFI will kill your children" paranoia now?

                More on the topic, I'm not entirely sure these Surface Book sleep issues are entirely with Microsoft; the chipset vendors have something to do with it - the updated drivers that fixed this issue for a lot of people were from Intel and nVidia, not Microsoft. Here's where Microsoft's inexperience as a system OEM is biting them, but if they're now eating the same dogfood as Asus, HP, Dell, etc, it can only be better for the customer in the end, as Windows becomes a bit less tricky to bring up on esoteric hardware. (Apple has a lead here because they've always had to deal with hardware integration of their OS)

                And speaking of Apple, my own experience of dealing with Microsoft customer care on a faulty unit has been exemplary - even better than my experiences with Apple formerly (and to be clear, I think Apple are generally good at after-sales). I really find it hard to see how the owner of one of their most expensive models would be bounced around like this; by now, a unit swap should have been offered...

        2. jaime

          Re: You cannot install another OS on the Surface Pro

          Yeah they are getting UEFI and Secure Boot mixed up. Anyways, makes working and wiping all these newer laptops that have it enabled since if you aren't aware of it will give some strange errors if you try to wipe the drive or reinstall the OS without disabling it first. And depending on the device there might not even be an option to disable in UEFI since it is up to company making machine!

          "All HP and Compaq computers that were manufactured with Windows 10 can use Secure Boot. Secure Boot is enabled by default on these computers"

          https://twitter.com/daviangel/status/666848987484307460

        3. joeldillon

          Re: You cannot install another OS on the Surface Pro

          You are right the issue is Secure Boot not UEFI in general. However, while PCs are required to allow a method of disabling secure boot, Surface tablets are not, and I believe the original ARM-based Surface RT did not.

          Looks like modern Surface tablets do allow you to disable it, though -

          https://www.microsoft.com/surface/en-gb/support/warranty-service-and-recovery/how-to-use-the-bios-uefi?os=windows-10

      2. imaginarynumber

        Re: You cannot install another OS on the Surface Pro

        "Surface Pro's come with UEFI enabled making it impossible to install another OS on them."

        Installed W8.1 on a friend's SP4 (his employers do not support W10).

        "If you buy a Surface Pro, you are stuck with Windows."

        Incorrect. Others have installed Linux on their Surface Pros

        http://blog.davidelner.com/dual-booting-ubuntu-14-10-on-the-surface-pro-3/

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: You cannot install another OS on the Surface Pro

          Ahhh, that's interesting. I've completely avoided the SP4 due to Windows 10.

          I could do Win 8.1, as the CAD software I use works with that. But Win 10 isn't an option.

          Might get an SP4 from Ebay at some point now. :)

          1. imaginarynumber

            Re: You cannot install another OS on the Surface Pro

            "Ahhh, that's interesting. I've completely avoided the SP4 due to Windows 10.

            I could do Win 8.1, as the CAD software I use works with that. But Win 10 isn't an option."

            Downgrading my mate's SP4 to W8.1 was not completely seamless. IIRC the volume buttons weren't mapped properly, the cameras wouldn't work and the power button didn't function properly (relatively minor issues for my friend).

            There is more info at the following

            http://forum.tabletpcreview.com/threads/surface-pro-4-discussion-thread.67857/page-195#post-461153

            You will need to turn off signed drivers and find a licence key.

            It is rumoured that battery life under 8.1 is better but I didn't have time to confirm that.

      3. Trollslayer Silver badge

        Re: You cannot install another OS on the Surface Pro

        I install Ubuntu 14.04 on various servers/test PCs at work using UEFI.

      4. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: You cannot install another OS on the Surface Pro

        "Surface Pro's come with UEFI enabled making it impossible to install another OS on them"

        I'm pretty sure even legacy *NIX type OSs can support signed UEFI boot these days...

      5. Strix

        Re: You cannot install another OS on the Surface Pro

        You are extremely confused on what UEFI is and apparently have no clue how to install an OS if you believe it's impossible to install Linux on a Surface (news flash: it's actually easy).

      6. goldyren

        Re: You cannot install another OS on the Surface Pro

        That's entirely false. I have a successful dual boot configuration with Win10/Linux Mint running on my surface book. One only needs to search google for a how to.. Touch screen does not work as native drivers have not hit the linux kernel as of yet... other than that, Linux runs flawless here alongside Win10 - some users have reported wiping Win10 completely and installing only Linux - no reason this wouldn't work either..

    4. John P

      I've had the SP4 since November and have never had any power issues with it. Some have though, I'm not sure if recent driver updates have fixed it for the SP4.

      Side note: Where in the article does it say that MS won't fix it, as per the headline? Did I miss or is that a click-bait headline?

    5. Hans 1 Silver badge

      I have been using Windows 10 for three days, now ... I have had to kill explorer.exe 5 times already, because that is the only way to get the "start menu" to resuscitate.

      I have had this "sleep of death" bug with Windows 8.1 multiple times, with 10 it has also happened this morning ... definitely a Windows bug.

      HP Elitebook 850 rev 1.

      PS: Needless to say, I keep my drivers updated, especially when I experience problems.

      1. Dale 3

        My explorer.exe on WIndows 10 also need regular killing and restarting, though not because of the Start Menu which continues to work fine (so far)... my explorer.exe leaks memory and generally doesn't last more than 2-3 days because it's consumed all 16GB of the available RAM. (Probably it isn't the Windows exe itself, but some other add-on which is leaking, but I haven't found out which one(s) yet.) When I get a moment I'll be writing myself a little utility to automatically kill and restart explorer.exe.

    6. picturethis
      Thumb Down

      Is it safe to go out?

      After 4 versions of the Surface Pro, you would think MS would get it right.. "POS" has multiple meanings here..

      I'm reminded of a movie called the Marathon Man where Dustin Hoffman is being tortured as he is being asked "is it safe to go out?". I keep asking myself "Is it safe to get involved with MS products?" After 30 years, the answer still keeps coming back to "No".

      I'd love to see a wiki-leak of internal documents discussing this issue. I bet it would be a classic.

      1. ben kendim

        Re: Is it safe to go out?

        I keep asking myself "Is it safe to get involved with MS products?" After 30 years, the answer still keeps coming back to "No".

        They make a pretty decent mouse, though... Other than that, you're right.

    7. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Did Red ring of death not teach you ANYTHING????

      Never ever buy Microsoft hardware. Ever.... they give a flying fook about their customers,only marketshare....

      Read and digest...

      http://venturebeat.com/2008/09/05/xbox-360-defects-an-inside-history-of-microsofts-video-game-console-woes/

      Microsoft have not changed since this fiasco.

  2. ZootCadillac

    Have you tried turning it o.....

    Seriously. Just shut it down properly. What's the problem? Do people really use a sleep mode? Have a little patience.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Have you tried turning it o.....

      Sorry, it is a $3000 machine. If I had to pay that for a laptop (and I would and will when I need to upgrade mine) I expect it to work not only flawlessly, but to exceed expectations and to last for several years.

      Here's hoping that the original victim get a refund!

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Have you tried turning it o.....

        I am amazed that anyone would pay 3 grand for a laptop without a fruity logo on it. Lifespans of laptops do not seem to rise in any way with price. If you get 3 years you are lucky; by that time they will want totally a new OS, new peripherals (USB4?) new WiFi etc.

    2. Law

      Sleep is used by many!

      I use it at work all the time... if I've got several code windows open and documents across 3 monitors, I'll sleep the laptop, remove it from the dock, and take it home for the night... next morning just kick it off again and jump straight in.

      Its even more useful when traveling, you just close the thing and pop it in the bag mid way through something... next free minute you can get it out again.

      I've used an early surface pro for work, had this issue and others related to WiFi... like just claiming no networks available, despite the laptop and android phones being connected fine. Only disabling and enabling the wireless device in device manager, or a reboot will help. For the cost and pathetic support, I'm surprised they're still able to sell any.

      1. Roq D. Kasba

        Re: Sleep is used by many!

        Use sleep all the time - shut my lid, go to the train, open lid, carry on working, shut lid, walk home, etc. This is on a 3 year old i5 Acer laptop I stuffed an SSD into, not a top of the line model from an aspiring premium brand.

      2. ZootCadillac

        Re: Sleep is used by many!

        I didn't mean to be flippant. I have a large desktop beast that cost a bit more than this laptop. It might get restarted once a month, if that. And this is in my home. It runs 24/7. I'd never trust it to sleep, especially as it's often doing things when I sleep.

      3. ZootCadillac

        Re: Sleep is used by many!

        Fair enough. i don't have to travel as much as I did for work and I have other devices that can do what a laptop used to. But I always turned it off when travelling. But I've been using Windows since version 3. I've had the shutdown mentality drilled into me.

        1. Mark 85 Silver badge

          Re: Sleep is used by many!

          Sleep and Hibernate have always been iffy and like you, from using Windows from early on, we learned.... shut it down, and just to be safe, turn off sleep and hibernate. Desktops, laptops have all had this it seems. I believe it's a software issue that's been baked in and some code somewhere that they'll never find at this point in time is the problem.

          1. Paul Shirley

            Re: Sleep and Hibernate have always been iffy

            Very iffy. After serial failure since win95, win10 finally has nearly working sleep on my current desktop. It's a bit too fond of spontaneously waking, occasionally decides not to wake, frequently forgets where the network is and OpenVPN never survives. But it sort of works. Even my old laptop was picky about restarting from sleep on xp.

            The retired desktop my wife uses never had working sleep till I put kubuntu on it...

            The pc running as a network pvr lost sleep mode with the Win8 to 10 upgrade. Not unexpected since every windows update breaks something.

            Iffy is being generous. Fusterclucked.

            1. theblackhand

              Re: Sleep and Hibernate have always been iffy

              To everyone saying You just have to live with sleep and hibernation problems, go and try an Apple MacBook.

              It just works - rushing somewhere? Close the lid and go. Boss asks you to show her something? Open the lid and show her. Don't have a power brick? Close the lid and resume later once you have power.

              In around 3 years of using MacBooks I can only recall one time the MacBook hasn't resumed successfully.

              THAT is what end users expect from a laptop because they can already get it from Apple - if Surfaces go on doing this, MS will lose Surface customers to Apple.

              1. Martin an gof Silver badge

                Re: Sleep and Hibernate have always been iffy

                In around 3 years of using MacBooks I can only recall one time the MacBook hasn't resumed successfully.

                Do MacBooks tend to sleep or hibernate on lid close?

                I have to say that I have had problems with OSX devices, both losing monitor configurations (e.g. "forgetting" that there's an external monitor attached, or re-setting resolutions, commonly defaulting to 800x600) and losing WiFi. Getting WiFi back usually just involves turning WiFi "off", waiting a bit, then turning it back on again (and re-registering if it's a public network). Getting an external monitor back often requires a log-out, log-in or even a reboot.

                What I have not had with a MacBook is a machine that won't wake up at all.

                Perhaps it's this "it works fine for me so there can't really be a problem" attitude that is afflicting Microsoft. Perhaps with the sheer volume of complaints they will now acknowledge that something needs to be done.

                MS will lose Surface customers to Apple

                Maybe, when Apple catches up with the form-factor, and iPads can run Outlook and Office ;-)

                M.

                1. James O'Shea Silver badge

                  Re: Sleep and Hibernate have always been iffy

                  "Maybe, when Apple catches up with the form-factor, and iPads can run Outlook and Office ;-)"

                  iPads can run Outlook and Office. I have MS' free Office for iOS on my iPad Air. Every now and again it bleats a request that I cough up the cash to 'upgrade' to Office 365 so that I can have 'the complete Office Experience'. I ignore the bleating. The limited feature set of the free version is all I need on a tablet. I have Office 2013 on my laptop. That used to bleat requests that I update to Office 365, too, until I hunted down and silenced with extreme prejudice the source.

                  I have a Bluetooth keyboard for my iPad. It still won't replace a real laptop for serious work.

              2. Stuart Castle

                Re: Sleep and Hibernate have always been iffy

                "It just works - rushing somewhere? Close the lid and go. Boss asks you to show her something? Open the lid and show her. Don't have a power brick? Close the lid and resume later once you have power."

                True, OSX isn't perfect (for instance, at work we had 15 24inch iMacs that would randomly flood the Ethernet switch they were attached to, then drop the network connection until reboot), but more often than not, it does just work.

                I like the way OSX handles sleep/hibernation. By default, it suspends to RAM. Latter versions of OSX can wake the computer periodically to check for emails and such. If the power starts to get low, it will write the data in RAM to the HDD or SSD (same as Windows Hibernate) and shut itself down. Obviously, at that point, OSX is not going to wake the computer to do anything.

                If you want, you can force the power management system to bypass the sleep mode and go straight to hibernation.

                As I said earlier, OSX is far from perfect, and far from bug free, but it does generally just work. I should know, I support a fleet of 117 iMacs, several Mac pros and 60 Mac Book pros.

              3. Wensleydale Cheese Silver badge
                Go

                Re: Sleep and Hibernate have always been iffy

                "To everyone saying You just have to live with sleep and hibernation problems, go and try an Apple MacBook."

                Exactly. I was doing this with an Apple iBook back in 2002, though the longevity of batteries back then was a limiting factor.

                My main work nowadays is on a desktop, where I suspend and resume virtual machines under VMware Fusion on a regular basis. The guest systems (various flavours of Linux, *nix and Windows) cope extremely well with disconnecting then reconnecting their virtual networks as part of the suspend/resume process.

                Once you get used to the way suspend and resume "just works" you wonder how you ever did without it.

              4. John Savard Silver badge

                Re: Sleep and Hibernate have always been iffy

                I'm well aware that on Windows machines, it's best to avoid sleep and hibernate. The fact that they work perfectly on the Macintosh, though, will only cause Microsoft to lose customers to Apple... if people can get the applications they want, at a competitive price, for the Macintosh.

                The past loss of market share from the Macintosh to Windows has, I believe, reached such a point, combined with Apple's reputation for locked-in systems, that Apple offers no real competition to Microsoft. There are people who swear by Apple, but most Windows users are extremely unlikely to consider joining their ranks.

                The Amiga and the Atari ST, long since dead, are the kind of competitor that would have appealed to many Windows users - companies aimed at pleasing the customer and driving for a low price. The Macintosh is for another kind of person - even if the price differential isn't as high as the one between Timex and Rolex.

              5. BlokeInTejas

                Re: Sleep and Hibernate have always been iffy

                Exactly what I was going to say. My MacBook Pro just stops doing things when I close its lid, and resumes when I open it, even days later. It's how it should work

          2. Martin an gof Silver badge

            Re: Sleep is used by many!

            Before I start, I am not a Microsoft apologist and I only use Windows because I have to at work. I have never had a Windows machine at home, and even at work my main "work" machine dual-boots Windows and OpenSuse. However...

            Sleep and Hibernate have always been iffy (also @Zoot)

            While sleep really, really should work on a $3,000 laptop, and it really, really doesn't seem to be a problem on anywhere near this scale on other hardware, you are both correct. Sleep has never been 100% reliable, ever. Hibernate has been better, but I've had problems with both on scores of machines with dozens of different configurations from oodles of different vendors (including many self-built) using chipsets from Intel, AMD and others and motherboards (for this may actually be a BIOS issue?) from goodness knows how many manufacturers.

            Guess what, it can also be a problem on the Linuxes I use (Mint, OpenSuse*) and on OSX and (possibly) iOS, as well as Windows (not a user of 10 or 8, but I have had problems on both 7 and XP - before XP came along, sleep and hibernate were simply not worth using at all). I have even had what I can only describe as a sleep-related problem on my Android phone where just occasionally if it has been to "sleep" for a very long time, it reboots when you try to wake it up.

            Putting a device to "sleep" (whatever that really means) will often cause it to forget network connections, particularly WiFi (requiring a disable, re-enable of the adapter), sometimes cause it to forget display configurations, occasionally cause desktop or application crashes and I've recently even seen it disable Wake on LAN functions (though to be fair, this latter problem also manifests on a "proper" shutdown, and the computers in question shouldn't ever enter sleep anyway).

            So, Zoot, I feel for your downvotes and I accept I'll probably get a few myself.

            But to go back to the start. While this is a long-standing occasional problem almost everywhere, it should not be something that happens almost every time! Someone at Microsoft needs to find out what is happening and sort it, or if they find it's a hardware issue that can't be mitigated in software they need to give Intel a kick up the backside and issue a recall / replacement / repair notice.

            M.

            *Both my OpenSuse machines desktop machines will "crash" in quite significant ways if you try to put them to sleep, but both come back from hibernate pretty well. The OpenSuse laptop has issues with startup and shutdown (it can sometimes take 2 or 3 minutes to shutdown), but sleep seems to work ok.

      4. DaddyHoggy

        Re: Sleep is used by many!

        That's interesting - my Asus EeePC 1015PX netbook upgraded to Win10 and this is exactly what I have to do when it claims there's no Wifi (even though everything else is connected to the Wifi and it was, itself, connected only moments before).

        MS sent me a Powershell script that they said would fix it, but it doesn't, only 'disable' <count to ten> 'Enable' gets me back on the Wifi.

        Windows 10 will also, annoyingly, spontaneously wake from Hibernate (I use Hibernate because, while a four year old netbook might boot up quite quickly under Windows 10, it's unusable for about 10 minutes while it does whatever Windows thinks it needs to do after a cold boot) at random times - it's even woken itself up in the laptop bag, only the "I'm overheating" beeping from the bag alerting to the screaming fans and a cooked netbook...

    3. Will 11

      Wish it was that simple. Shut downs on my pro 3 sometimes lead to the date & time being wrong. Which means no VPN access. I can only fix by logging on with local admin credentials to fix. Non-IT users don't have that luxury

      1. Hans 1 Silver badge

        >Wish it was that simple. Shut downs on my pro 3 sometimes lead to the date & time being wrong. Which means no VPN access. I can only fix by logging on with local admin credentials to fix. Non-IT users don't have that luxury

        Change the CMOS battery ;-)

        1. illiad

          and YOU are a fool for using MS crap... I have worked on PCs for 30 YEARS, and NEVER trusted 'sleep' - ONLY bought from good supplier like DELL, Tosh, etc...

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            What decade are you in?

            "Good supplier like Dell, Tosh"?? Dells use to have great build quality, but they long since threw that away to pursue "effciencies" in their supply chain or whatever MBAs call diving to the bottom of the barrel to scrape the last barnacle-encrusted cent these days. And Tosh, who used to make bullet proof, industrial strength laptops in the 1990s, are a shadow of themselves.

    4. NCos

      If being able to be put into sleep mode is part of its specification, then it should be able to perform this routine action flawlessly. It is Microsoft-designed hardware running a Microsoft-designed operating system. Is it really that much to ask that it should work properly? I'm starting to wonder if Microsoft have a death-wish.

    5. goldcd

      Sleep should work, but never quite seems to

      Hibernate? I've got my phone for when I need "instant-access" and I'm prepared to spent 30 secs waiting to come out of hibernate.

      Not for one moment "excusing" crappy-sleep, but there is an alternative.

    6. dajames Silver badge
      FAIL

      Just shut it down properly. What's the problem? Do people really use a sleep mode?

      I must say that I don't tend to use Sleep mode, because experience has taught me that it's one of the things that's least likely to work running Linux on newish hardware. I use Linux, and that just doesn't have manufacturer-supplied drivers for things like ACPI on any hardware (and ACPI is fiendishly complicated so the drivers are hard to get right).

      I thought this was just one of the prices one had to pay for running one's own choice of OS on hardware made by companies that only want to support the OS with the biggest market share, but it seems it doesn't even work properly with Windows on Microsoft-supplied hardware. That's not good.

      Sleep mode is a standard feature of the Surface Book -- something that is supposed to work out-of-the-box -- and any customer should be entitled to expect that it will work faultlessly 100% of the time when running the supplied version of Windows.

      I was about to write "especially at those prices", but even if we were talking about a budget laptop the customer should be able to expect that Sleep would "just work" (TM).

      This is an epic fail on Microsoft's part, and they should issue a fix or recall the product line right away.

    7. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Attitudes like that ('ironic' or otherwise) are why I now buy refurbished kit (rather than new kit) for my own personal use. I make the same recommendation to selected others too.

      Something a couple of years old has probably had the bugs ironed out. If a critical bug has not been fixed, and it matters to me, then no sale (not here, anyway).

      Stuff is supposed to be sold as "fit for purpose". Stuff is not supposed to be "defective by design".

      1. Paul Shirley

        re:Something a couple of years old has probably had the bugs ironed out

        Sadly that's not my experience of win 8 or 10. Nothing ever send to get fixed without causing as much breakage somewhere else in the os. Some of it by design, perpetually trying to update my driver's to newer versions bit me again yesterday, when i came home to a network pvr with half it's tuners non functional. Whatever forced update took the machine down yesterday replaced the functional ones with broken versions I'd hidden to stop that happening. The cnuts are now ignoring my settings whenever it takes their fancy.

        Wiping all my firewall settings was pretty catastrophic on a network service. Couldn't vpn into to it to fix the mess or access any pvr functions. Microsoft damn near bricked it.

        Expecting things to magically get better on windows is misguided, they just shuffle where the bugs are from time to time.

      2. Naughtyhorse

        Supposed to be...

        But when has it ever actually been that way?

    8. Blitterbug
      Facepalm

      Re: Seriously. Just shut it down properly. What's the problem?

      Hardly a constructive comment. What the article isn't making clear is that some surface tablets (mine included) can enter the Sleep of Death state when powered off. I have to use the emergency two-button reset to start my Surface Pro daily, after a full power-down. This only happens if the machine is off for more than a couple of hours, so in my mind it's clearly related. And I have given up looking for solutions. There are none.

    9. Naughtyhorse

      wow

      Apparently not!

      Did i miss a meeting?

      Sleep an hibernate are just a pain in the arse as far as I can tell. i was trained to shut down with windows 3.0 and don't really get the 'advantage'of having my computer not working, but still running the battery down. nevermind the consequences of even the smallest memory leak when your uptime is potentially infinity.

      shut down, it's cathartic, it's the end of the day. full stop, i no longer belong to 'the man', the next few hours are all mine.

  3. Joerg

    Microsoft must go bankrupt! Stop buying their flawed products!

    It is time for Microsoft to disappear.

    The Surface crap is just like the Windows8.0, 8.1 and 8.2=10 crap and the WindowsPhone crap all with the Metro/ModernUI unusable childish nonsense.

    People must stop buying anything from Microsoft.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: People must stop buying anything from Microsoft.

      No. People must start making noise so the companies stop selling stuff without proper support.

      (Dare I say) A good thing about Apple: whenever they have problems similar to these a lot of users start making noise, usually calling it *gate, filling class action lawsuits, and in most of the occasions there is a fix or extended warranty or any kind of late-but-still-appliable solution.

      1. Joerg

        Re: People must stop buying anything from Microsoft.

        Microsoft doesn't care about the noise.

        They think to be untouchables because they have full protection of corrupted politicians and judges and because they don't care about their customers nor quality of their products.

        Noise will change nothing.

        Microsoft must disappear. They deserve to. Enough is enough.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: People must stop buying anything from Microsoft.

          Microsoft doesn't care about the noise.

          ...

          Microsoft must disappear. They deserve to. Enough is enough.

          So...who or what is going to make it disappear?

          Millions of users will still keep buying (or paying for) Microsoft products. I expect that governments will still be major purchasers.

          Complains of bad products and services with a possible class action >> wishful thinking. And it is even possible that lots of noise make Microsoft actually solve the problem or issue a recall or refund.

        2. PNGuinn
          Mushroom

          Re: People must stop buying anything from Microsoft.

          Do they sell this carp in the UK?

          I suspect a quick threat of a court case - refund - not fit for purpose - would do the trick.

          If not, open and shut case here, lots of luvverly publicity for Slurp.

          There's precedent here IIRR - someone got 'em some years ago - W95 not of merchantable quality or somesuch.

          In the Land of the Lawyer - a class action thingie??

          Icon for the guilty >>

          1. Charles 9 Silver badge

            Re: People must stop buying anything from Microsoft.

            And if Microsoft successfully bribes the court, gets its way, and sets a precedent?

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: People must stop buying anything from Microsoft.

        Pleny of Apple iMacs losing their Video, due to failed Video Cards across the board, yet only very few specific models recalled by Apple.

        Still not as bad as HP that seem to use third parties to post deceptive How to fix Video Problems/Battery Charging Problems videos on Youtube giving fake methods of how to resolve physical 'hardware faults', i.e. a failed Mosfet, yet stating it can be solved via a firmware reset.

        All very dubious, and pretty sure HP are behind those videos, to obfuscate users to the real problem, which is a failed hardware component/Poorly designed charging circuitry, even their staff on HP.com point you to these type of solutions, knowing very well it won't solve the problem.

      3. macjules Silver badge

        Re: People must stop buying anything from Microsoft.

        SleepofDeathGate? SODGate? Even though I am not a Windows/Surface user, and not much of a Mac user now (despite the name), and I would certainly not fork out $4k on a laptop, but is there not any setting in the Control Panel that specifies the sleep behaviour, i.e. 'close the lid' or 'push the power button'.

        Perhaps this might be the problem, but it should have been fixed by Microsoft and they should not be hiding in the metaphorical bathroom hoping that the problem will go away.

        1. PNGuinn
          Devil

          Re: People must stop buying anything from Microsoft. @macjules

          +1 for SODGate.

      4. Justin Clift

        Re: People must stop buying anything from Microsoft.

        ... a lot of users start making noise, usually calling it *gate ...

        Sleepgate ?

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I purchased a top-of-the-line Windows 10 SB

    That will teach you a lesson then :)

  5. adnim Silver badge

    My sympathy

    to MS victims good luck and buy bye

  6. Kevin McMurtrie Silver badge
    Trollface

    Still copying Apple

    MacOS X has been doing this for years. I don't know why it took MS so long to catch up.

    1. Dadmin

      Re: Still copying Apple

      You must have installed some mighty shitty warez to get your mac to not sleep properly. This is one of the many things a Mac or PowerBook does VERY well. You put it to sleep, and it comes back when you open or wake it, no crashing, just works. Honestly, if you got the Darwin kernel to crash, you should have offered up a bug for bounty... otherwise you're blowing smoke, dear.

      1. Jeffrey Nonken Silver badge

        Re: Still copying Apple

        Not entirely true, historically. I have an old Black Mac (late 2006 edition) with a flakey bluetooth module. Ever since Leopard the MacBook won't sleep if the bluetooth module isn't responding. Disabling the module does nothing because the machine will re-enable it next time it's detected, no matter how briefly. It's a stupid problem, especially since I'm not even interested in using bluetooth on that machine. Why on Earth would a non-responsive bluetooth module stop a laptop from sleeping?

        Of course I'm not using the machine any more, and I gave it away to somebody who just leaves it plugged in all the time anyway. So it's academic now. But it's a known problem, never fixed, with an Apple laptop that does not require installing any malware. Just any OS later than Tiger.

        Apple makes quality stuff, no doubt about that. But they're not perfect either.

        1. Sgt_Oddball Silver badge

          Re: Still copying Apple

          Even Sony did the same when they made laptops. We've got a circa 2006 vaio that still works like a charm (now the kids mess about machine since the battery finally died) but the 2013 lappy my other half bought to replace it doesn't like to sleep half the time and now tries to cook itself on a regular occasion.

          On the other hand I bought a beaten up lenovo for less than a night out (2010 x200t) and that things been solid on win 10 bar the lack of decent graphics/cache drive/GSM module drivers but then I don't game on it, I've jammed an ssd in and I can't be arsed sticking a sim in so no great loss.

          But for the kind of money ms are asking for the surface, I'd expect far better from them, and in the Eu it'd be considered unfit for purpose and liable for a refund over this

        2. handle

          "Why on Earth would a non-responsive bluetooth module stop a laptop from sleeping?"

          @Jeffrey Nonken: because it's a hardware fault. You have a broken computer. The OS doesn't know, for instance, if the Bluetooth module is in a mode where it's slurping power at maximum rate and so will flatten the battery rapidly while everything else is asleep. Maybe its designers responded to angry complaints from similarly-afflicted users that their batteries go flat in sleep mode, and decided that honesty was the best policy: the OS shouldn't make promises it can't keep?

          You can't blame any OS for not miraculously finding a way to work properly on broken hardware. Who knows - maybe the Surface Pro is being similarly dishonest about a hardware irregularity, leading to the "sleep of death" that people are complaining about?

        3. Dan 55 Silver badge

          Re: Still copying Apple

          If your Mac is in sleep mode, hitting a key on a Bluetooth keyboard or moving a Bluetooth mouse will wake it up, which is why it needs to use the Bluetooth chip while sleeping. As well as disabling Bluetooth in the menu bar, try going into Preferences > Bluetooth > Advanced and unchecking "Allow Bluetooth devices to wake this computer".

          Or fix or remove the flaky piece of hardware. If e.g. the computer supports wake-on-LAN over Wi-Fi and the Wi-Fi's screwed I wouldn't expect a happy ending either but I wouldn't complain that the OS had a problem sleeping with screwed Wi-Fi.

          Anyway, have we all forgotten the Jobs demonstration where he started a video playing on a MacBook and repeatedly opened and closed the lid to show that sleep actually worked. Windows still can't do that in 2016, amirite?

          1. P. Lee Silver badge

            Re: Still copying Apple

            >If your Mac is in sleep mode, hitting a key on a Bluetooth keyboard or moving a Bluetooth mouse will wake it up

            Which is *really* annoying. They keyboard is fine, but a mouse shouldn't wake it up - they are far too sensitive for that.

            1. beavershoes

              Re: Still copying Apple

              I rarely use a keyboard. I play chess mostly and all I ever need is a mouse. I like that the mouse wakes up the computer. As far as the sleep of death goes, some of us, like the over 40 crowd, never use anything other than Windows. It is not realistic that they learn a new OS. Chromebooks, Android, OS X, iOS and Linux are not a realistic option for them. The under 40 crowd is a bit more agile because of the advantage of their youth. The sleep of death issue buyers will get older and will leave us. I see then that this sleep of death problem will go away.

              1. jason 7

                Re: Still copying Apple

                My 70 year old dad took my spare Chromebook just fine on a five week trip to South Africa. He said he really enjoyed using it.

                If they have been using Chrome then they are 75% there already...

                1. Martin an gof Silver badge

                  Re: Still copying Apple

                  Wary of this turning into a Monty Python sketch but...

                  ...my 85 year-old dad, who had never so much as picked up a (computer) mouse in his life, was so motivated by FlightRadar24 (he's a bit of a planespotter) that on his birthday this year he started learning. He has a wireless keyboard with touchpad (which isn't the easiest of things to use) and a computer running OpenSuse connected to his TV which by default loads up with Firefox full screen, homepage set to FR24. Every now and then I go over for a coffee and introduce him to something new - tap-to-drag or pinch-to-zoom or the BBC News website or the fact that it's networked to the printer upstairs* so he can print pictures of aeroplanes off. Maybe email next?

                  Old dogs can learn new tricks.

                  M.

                  *Mum's a couple of years younger and has had computers since the 1990s, starting with an Acorn A3010 and graduating onto a PPC Mac with OS9, then a MacMini with OSX, then another. Tired of Apple abandoning OSX I'll probably shift her to OpenSuse too in a couple of years when the MacMini needs replacing.

              2. Richard Plinston Silver badge

                Re: Still copying Apple

                > some of us, like the over 40 crowd, never use anything other than Windows. It is not realistic that they learn ...

                It is so sad that you, being 'over 40', feel that you are incapable of learning anything. I am a quarter century more than that and I learn new stuff every day.

              3. Montreal Sean

                Re: Still copying Apple

                @beavershoes

                My grandfather was still doing accounting on his PC at the age of 98.

                He had used every version of Windows up to XP, and several different Web browsers and email programs over the years.

                Never took him more than a couple of days to get used to the changes.

                Age does not make change or adaptability impossible.

              4. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

                Re: Still copying Apple

                "some of us, like the over 40 crowd, never use anything other than Windows."

                Yes, yes, we know there were no computers before some 10-year old designed the Spectrum for Sinclair so anyone alive before then has no chance of adopting new stuff.

                Well, sonny, I've got news for you. Some of us, still alive and well over 40 were using all sorts of machines well before then. In my case ICL mainframes back about 1970, Z80-base S100s in the late '70s, Primes (ask your grandad) and a Zilog Z8000 based box about the time of the Spectrum. And that Z8000 box ran Unix which is what your favoured Linux, Chromebooks and Android emulate and the basis of your Apple toys. In fact the best use I ever found for Windows was opening multiple sessions on Unix servers.

                So all that stuff you think is new isn't. It's old. Those of us who are old enough not only remember it first time around. Some of us might even have contributed to all your shiny.

                It's half term now. When it's over and you go back to school and learn some history; if you don't you'll end up repeating it.

      2. unwarranted triumphalism

        Re: Still copying Apple

        Samsung Kies regularly provoked kernel panics on mine. Got rid of the Mac and got a PC instead, problem solved.

        1. Wensleydale Cheese Silver badge

          Re: Still copying Apple

          "Samsung Kies regularly provoked kernel panics on mine. Got rid of the Mac and got a PC instead, problem solved."

          The 2013 version of Samsung Kies for OS X was such a pile of poo that I got rid of it. Blowing it away was considerably cheaper than replacing my Mac.

          The Credits file hadn't been updated from the out of the box Xcode defaults for the time:

          "Engineering: Some people ... With special thanks to: Mom"

          Samsung Kies: Even the Developers Don't want to Take Credit!

      3. Rexxx

        Re: Still copying Apple

        My 2012 MBP Retina had a serious issue with sleeping when it had very recently had a thunderbolt ethernet adapter removed. Took me a long time to figure out one had to remove the adapter, wait maybe 30 seconds and then sleep. Sleeping then removing, or removing then immediately sleeping would frequently end up with the CPU going to full usage doing something not very useful, and staying like that till you powered it off. Not useful when you put it inside a bag after assuming you've put it to sleep!

    2. N2 Silver badge

      Re: Still copying Apple

      Thats some fairly strong stuff youre smoking

      A check of iStat shows its months since I last rebooted my MBP.

  7. tom dial Silver badge

    Suggestions

    If paid with a credit card, the card issuer might have provisions you can use to put pressure on Microsoft that they cannot ignore easily, like pulling back and returning your money to you. The one I use most often offers such a additional protection plan, although I never have had occasion to try it.

    I do not know about California, but small claims courts in many states are suitable for claims at least as large as the machine cost. They generally do not require a lawyer, and sometimes are ignored by defendants (leading to a default judgment for the plaintiff), and their orders are quite enforceable.

    From the description in the article, their refusal to refund based on the POS POS terminal system probably is rubbish and they probably know it. A letter from a lawyer pointing this out in some detail might move them to action.

    As a (minor) Microsoft shareholder, I think they should make good on things like this without a lot of fuss. As nearly always is true in cases like this, failure to do so promptly and cheerfully will cost them more in the end, both money and good will.

    1. Mike Echo

      Re: Suggestions

      "As nearly always is true in cases like this, failure to do so promptly and cheerfully will cost them more in the end, both money and good will."

      Exactly. It never ceases to amaze me how companies profess to "value the customer", "focus on the basics", "empower", "stakeholders", <insert another business cliche here> and then just duck and weave, preferring to try and hide things under the carpet in the hope that the problem will go away. This is very, very poor service on the part of Microsoft and I hope the issue is reported far and wide and comes back to bite them on the bum.,

      1. Stoneshop Silver badge
        Devil

        "stakeholders"

        The ones holding the stakes.

        With the C*O's heads on them.

    2. a_yank_lurker Silver badge

      Re: Suggestions

      Small claims court sounds like a very good idea, check statute of limitations.

  8. Dadmin

    Those Macs look ugly!

    What kind of Frankenstein laptops are you showing up there?! Oh wait, those are "Surface Laptops"?

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

    Sorry, I just

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

    Holy crap! That's too fucking funny! You guys, is this April 1st all over again? Seriously, why doesn't M$ just purchase Macs from the OEM and stick their shitty W10 on there and call it a day? I can't wait to do this all over again if I ever see one of those "Mac-Clones" in the wilds. Just fucking priceless! WOW! "Hey, these are NOT PowerBooks" - Microsoft Store "Genius"

    1. macjules Silver badge

      Re: Those Macs look ugly!

      Let me guess your age. No, wait: I don't need to.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Those Macs look ugly!

        'powerbooks' prob a bit of a disconnect between physical and mental, could be tougher than you think.

  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    It did unlock immediately for my friend Peggy

    "It did unlock immediately for my friend Peggy, who must look enough like me"

    Given Microsoft move into Policing the content you search, along with its Telemetry, Peggy must have been wearing her Police Uniform, which automatically gave her direct access via Windows Hello, under MS's new terms.

  10. 2+2=5 Silver badge
    Facepalm

    Great response by Microsoft

    Great response by Microsoft: stall complaints, claim 30 days is up, save a few $k now, pay hundreds of millions in a class action tomorrow.

  11. Palpy

    Well, shift happens. But --

    -- a supposedly high-dollar machine should not do that. Or if it does, the patch should be immediate. Yes, one of my Ubuntu installs glitched on suspend -- it would turn itself back on immediately after suspending. But before I could check bug reports, the next update from Canonical fixed it. And I paid $400 for the box, not $3000.

  12. Rabbit80

    BIOS

    Sure it's not a BIOS problem? I note you mentioned the drivers are up to date, but what about firmware?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: BIOS

      Surface firmware, driver and BIOS updates are delivered thru Windows Update, so they're always up to date. Just not up to snuff.

    2. hplasm Silver badge
      Devil

      Re: BIOS

      Do MS do the BIOS, too?

      Oh yes...

  13. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Patience???

    The guy bought an extremely expensive product that does not work as advertised and seriously compromises its usability.

    Let me guess, you are a proud owner of a Fisker Karma aka a very expensive electronic car that does not work close to advertised.

  14. jnemesh

    Anyone buying MS hardware deserves what they get.

    Seriously. They screwed over MILLIONS of Xbox 360 customers, then only belatedly offered exchanges after a MASSIVE public outcry. They havent learned ONE BIT!

    1. Duncan Macdonald Silver badge

      Re: Anyone buying MS hardware deserves what they get.

      Be fair - most of the Microsoft mouse designs have been very reliable. Just do not trust them for anything that needs software!!!

  15. mdowlin

    Latest Drivers do help, somewhat...

    I've found that hibernate is pretty solid on my Surface Book. I've left it for days and start it up at the last state I was in. Sleep however, does it pretty much every time.

    1. TechnicalBen Silver badge

      Re: Latest Drivers do help, somewhat...

      This. IMO suspend/standby is asking for trouble. But I've neve really had trouble with Hibernate, except the occasional wake up from usb devices.

      1. P. Lee Silver badge

        Re: Latest Drivers do help, somewhat...

        Hibernate is fine if you have a low spec machine.

        Load it up with ram and it becomes less usable.

        As lots of other people have said, several generations of Macs do it just fine and the whole point of a vendor-appliance is that they have supposedly sorted out issues like this.

        It's another war story to add to the list of, "we're stuck with MS because of the cost of moving, but we do quite loath them." and with top-end machines like these, it will infect the minds of important people who will assume MS is rubbish in general. That can cost MS in the long-run and its why it is better to hold off releasing a product until it is ready.

    2. garethf

      Re: Latest Drivers do help, somewhat...

      I've had my SP4 for a month now. First thing I did was change the default behaviour from Sleep to Hibernate (which I've done on PC's for years). No issues for me! I've left my Surface for a few days (needed a break from work!) and it started where it left off.

      Got to say, my Surface is the first time a PC has ever impressed me: From cold boot to start menu, including auth via Windows Hello, all in under 5 seconds!

      As for Windows Hello, it's got a near 100% record for me, bar one time that I used it in a hotel terrace a few days ago when the sun was blasting down at me. I personally think I can let that one time off!

  16. agatum
    Mushroom

    Microsoft won't fix 'Sleep of Death' bug

    First they started using their customers as testers. Now they won't fix. So, what, now their customers have to test their products AND fix their bugs?

    1. Ropewash
      Pint

      @agatum

      So if the customers are now expected to test and patch perhaps MS should just opensource the thing and let the masses get on with fixing it properly (or patching functional code into wine and running that on top of a better platform.)

      Win10 it's free-as-in-beer for now, how about some free-as-in-speech?

      HAH.

      I couldn't type that with a straight face.

      Beer-as-in-Beer, it's Friday.

    2. I am the Walrus
      Mushroom

      AND because you used their hardware and OS to do this on they now own the rights to the fix you created!

    3. Montreal Sean

      users as test subjects and bug fixers

      Isn't that how Linux works?

      :p

      1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: users as test subjects and bug fixers

        "Isn't that how Linux works?"

        It depends. Some users work with LTS releases. Some want the bleeding edge. With Linux you don't pay your money and you still takes your choice.

  17. Scary Biscuits

    I would simply write to Microsoft with a final demand for a refund. If they don't pay make a formal complaint. When they ignore that, them to court. In the UK it's really easy via the small claims court. A big corporate will always pay up (1) because the county courts rarely sympathize with them and (2) they can't risk a CCJ against their company. (3) in this case they have clearly failed to provide you with a working product under the Sale of Goods Act 1979.

    Unfortunately this problem is not limited to IT companies. Most rely on the fact that consumers don't know their rights and are sent around in circles īn call centre Hell. Going to court cuts trough all that and leads to payment within 3 months, usually less.

    1. Pookietoo

      Re: Sale of Goods Act 1979

      The Sale of Goods Act 1979 was superseded by the Consumer Rights Act 2015.

      1. Tony Paulazzo

        Re: Sale of Goods Act 1979

        Consumer Rights Act 2015 (UK)

        Even if you bought the product more than 30 days ago, you are still entitled to a repair or a replacement. The retailer has one chance to make the repair. If you are still unhappy, you have a right to a refund.

        This right extends to 6 months after the purchase.

  18. Kev99 Bronze badge

    Wasting money

    "...but in hopes of prolonging my system’s lifespan and delaying the always painful process of migrating to a new system."

    I bought a Toshiba Satellite L755D-S7340 Win7 Pro when I got back from Tanzania in 2010. It is strictly a work computer. It handles everything I've thrown at it and has yet to falter. Well, when I Win10 Preview on it, Win 10 hosed it but that's a different story. I'm still running some software written for XP 64 and those apps work just fine. The need to continually buy the latest & greatest computer is marketing, pure & simple. My desktop is even older and too works with everything I've thrown at it. I won't put Win10 on that box because I have neither the time nor patience to reformat and reload EVERY piece of software.

    1. Sean Timarco Baggaley

      Re: Wasting money

      This.

      None of the kit I own is new. I prefer to buy close to high-end and run it into the ground. My MacBook Pro (17", early 2010) is still going strong and had an SSD installed a few years ago. (This is by far the best upgrade I've ever done; the difference in speed and responsiveness was a revelation.) It also hasn't been switched off since February, and that's only because I was rearranging the office.

      My other machine is a second-hand Microsoft Surface Pro 2 with dock, and I currently use a (second-hand) Surface 3 for a tablet. (The 2GB / 64GB SSD model. I've actually used it for work, but in hindsight, the 4GB model would have been better.)

      None of them have any trouble sleeping, though both the Surface models have problems with their graphics drivers. ('Scuse me a moment while I wave my fist angrily in Intel's general direction.)

      Sometimes, a company goes through a particularly bad patch – Apple's G4 Cube springs rapidly to mind; and that was under Jobs' tenure – but they've all been there. Even car manufacturers get it wrong. The sign of a good manufacturer is their customer service. Apple tend to have a great reputation for this, though given their target market, that's hardly surprising.

      Microsoft are still learning. Like many corporations, they're probably going to have to learn this the hard way, as shareholders and board members tend to be ornery bastards with egos to match. Risky revolutions are a very tough sell to them, so it becomes a long process of chipping away at their objections until, suddenly, it's already a fait accompli.

      But it was ever thus; these things happen in cycles.

      *

      Incidentally, for those curious about the Secure Boot feature: yes, it's there. Yes, it can be disabled in the UEFI settings. They don't give you a lot of options other than "On/Off" though. When it's off, the "Surface" logo on boot-up appears -- in an excellent example of poor graphic design* -- against a red, rather than black, background.

      * (The image has no transparency, so you get a small black box behind the logo. It looks more like a hardware glitch.)

    2. Hans 1 Silver badge
      Boffin

      Re: Wasting money

      >I won't put Win10 on that box because I have neither the time nor patience to reformat and reload EVERY piece of software.

      And when time comes to replace parts, like CPU/Mobo, you will notice that you can keep your license with Win7 (you call that silly activation number, type 108 keys, and are done), with Win10, you are skullf*ck*d and need to buy a new license.

      That is THE reason why I reverted the only personal Windows 10 system I had in this house ... besides, Windows 10 is somewhat sloooow on a i3 4500/16GbRam/SSD, compared to Win7.

  19. heyrick Silver badge

    Random comments

    I'm really surprised you don't have the equivalent of a sale of goods law. Who cares what their Piece Of Shi...oh, wrong acronym...system can or can't do. If the (incredibly expensive) machine clearly fails to do something it was advertised as doing, it is defective. And if you were wanting to depend on that function, then you should be entirely entitled to a refund so you can find an alternative that does work.

    For a company the size of Microsoft, that response is appalling.

    My little netbook runs XP. Takes ages to boot. So I usually just close the lid which kicks it into standby. I can leave it like that for days and expect it to come back exactly as I left it. Which it does. I can't hibernate, small SSDs. My other machine hibernates, but that's because it is a real PC so doesn't have a battery inside to keep the memory active if the power is off. Both methods have their uses.

  20. nweightman

    Its not just Surface Book

    The problem in question i don't think is just on the surface laptop. I have an Acer laptop which i did a full upgrade on and after going to sleep for a few hours, the bug seems to affect my system - but slightly differently. It causes the system to actually lock the screen every hour - at first it was a little annoying, but in task manager I just kill anything with Lock at the beginning as well as killing off RuntimeBroker - this stops the problem from occurring during that session. After a full reboot the problem doesn't occur but always happens after its been sleeping for any amount of time.

  21. soretski

    this is click-bait as anyone with a surface (rt onward) knows this is the machine's annoying worst habit. sad to hear they never fixed it though. sucker!

    1. Vince

      Ah yes, my Surface Pro 2 did this. When I say did, it's not that the issue is fixed, I just got fed up with all the other issues that has, and now it sits on my desk, plugged in, always on, and just shows me the status feed of our network and other basic tasks.

      An expensive mistake and one I won't repeat, and as time has shown, is still a problem on the latest and greatest.

      My Lenovo Yoga Pro 2, bought to replace said surface... yep that sleeps and resumes perfectly several times a day, every weekday and happily sleeps for s day or two at a time and resumes if I am away.

      Fool me once Microsoft, shame on you.

  22. jab701

    Skylake issues

    I had a similar issue on an intel skylake system (NUC) which would sleep but wouldn't wake up. I ended up updating the BIOS, removing all the intel drivers and re-installing the latest ones, one by one (Just installing the new ones over the top didnt work).

    I would be tempted to put the blame for this one rubbish on intel drivers...

    1. G.Y.

      Re: Skylake issues

      jab701 did _not_ buy from Intel; he bought from Dell/Microsoft/h-p/... -- so _they_ are responsible

    2. Montreal Sean

      Re: Skylake issues

      I had the same problem with Windows on my NUC.

      I wasn't very attached to Windows so once Ubuntu 16.04 LTS was released I wiped my NUC, installed Ubuntu and haven't looked back.

  23. Incredulous

    Not in the UK

    We are spoiled here in the UK, it seems. Under the sale of goods act, the product must be "fit for purpose". Floundering with the regularity described would not be regarded as fit for purpose. Furthermore, if you paid the initial bill with a credit card, you can demand satisfaction from the credit card company if the original supplier refused to play ball. Suddenly, being British doesn't seem so bad after-all.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Not in the UK

      And there's the two year warranty thing too, not that Apple pay any attention to that particular legal oblivion. I wonder if MS do too?

      I'd far rather have such "socialist" arrangements than America's "go fetch yourself a lawyer" approach to consumer rights.

      1. Stoneshop Silver badge
        Headmaster

        that particular legal oblivion.

        That's what Apple is actually trying to do. But ITYM 'obligation'

  24. hypernovasoftware

    MS can't handle sleeping. It's the 21st Century!

    If it were me, I'd be contacting an attorney.

  25. Ropewash

    That service...

    A hardware fault I could live with, everyone screws up. Recall if there's no way to repair.

    A software fault should get patched ASAP especially if it's the software writer's bloody machine.

    That run-around dimwit customer service on the other hand is just inexcusable. "Oh sorry, our PoS (named that for a reason) won't allow it." Bullshit. How many customers do they want to lose? How bad does the word of mouth have to be? What use is their expensive extended warranty if it doesn't cover the machine being a flaming bag of crap?

    I've been a happy Surfacepro3 owner so far but am now not looking forward to having to deal with these bellends someday. (I'm glad I didn't pay for that warranty)

  26. The Average Joe

    since 2005...

    I have started using Apple computers in 2005

    Mac Mini PowerPC 1.4GHz

    MacBook 2006

    PowerMac PowerPC tower

    Macbook2007

    MacBook Pro 2010

    Macbook Pro 2012

    All have NEVER had sleep, wake, hibernate issues. All have had AWESOME Bluetooth support.

    Apple makes a great product, Microsoft products are a waste of time and money.

    1. bazza Silver badge

      Re: since 2005...

      Apple have awesome Bluetooth support? You must be joking! They support only a small subset of Bluetooth profiles, and whilst they may have done a good job with those you can forget about the others.

    2. Richard Crossley

      Re: since 2005...

      Just bought my first Apple product this year and I have also been mightily impressed by it's sleep/hibernate functionality. As a frequent Linux user this was iffy to some degree. It's so long since I used a MS laptop that I can't remember if it worked or not. I suspect not.

      As for purchasing this. UK Consumer Credit protection applies irrespective of where the product was purchased. If a product is purchased on a UK credit card, you are entitled to the protection it affords. That peace of mind is worth the little extra % when buying abroad.

  27. Sampler

    Even Worse

    My CEO has a Pro4 and returned one due to sleep of death, she's a fiery Welsh woman so managed to wrangle a replacement out of the sales staff which now she doesn't set to sleep but instead full shuts down each time (not like it takes long to boot back up) BUT the problem is the battery discharges even whilst powered off.

    I've checked all the power settings, checked all the updates, and the thing still drains power whilst appearing to be off (screen's definitely off, no fans, just cook in the laptop bag).

    Meaning she can't take it to morning meetings as it needs plugging in first because even a fully charged battery doesn't last being turned off overnight.

    I have a strong feeling this one's going back too and someone will be yelled at until she gets a refund!

    1. handle

      "the battery discharges even whilst powered off."

      Ah, fond memories of the Original EEE PC in 2008 - I sent mine back twice for motherboard replacement to fix this fault and of course as it didn't, then got a refund.

      Just opened my "eee" folder on Yahoo Mail to check that for the first time in more than 5 years. Only took it a couple of seconds to retrieve that from who knows where...

    2. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge

      Re: Even Worse

      I've checked all the power settings, checked all the updates, and the thing still drains power whilst appearing to be off (screen's definitely off, no fans, just cook in the laptop bag).

      One should take an IR image to see what component continues to drain power.

      This is in the tradition of Microsoft letting the con-sumer (the one at the receiving end of the con) figure out what's wrong with the product.

    3. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge

      Re: Even Worse

      and if this was an Apple device, a 100 Class Action lawsuits would have been filed, News of the issue would be on the TV and Radio news and the share price would take a hammering and senior execs hauled up before politicians to explain their inaction.

      But it isn't so MS has decided that like the wartime slogan said

      Keep Calm,

      Carry On.

      Nothing to report. Not news. etc

      And then next quarter, we see Surface sales tank. What then Mr SatNad?

  28. Mikel

    The sales drone was right.

    Just buy another one. And a spare.

    1. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge

      Re: The sales drone was right.

      ...then tell him to keep the change.

  29. Tim99 Silver badge
    Windows

    Sympathy

    "I purchased a top-of-the-line Windows 10 Surface Book in February...

    ...The system had a base price of $3,199; configured with Office 365, a Surface Dock, and Microsoft Complete Accident Protection, I spent a bit over $4,000...

    ...When I next called to ask for my refund, I was told that I couldn’t have one, on the grounds that I was now outside the 30-day window for returns.

    Well there's your problem; and some people who frequent these fora call out Apple for supplying overpriced inadequate kit?

  30. Frenchie Lad

    Not the Only Issue

    This sexy laptop has not only this fault, it has a big design flaw: the SSD is stuck/moulded into the unit so if you keep sensitive data and the unit needs replacing you can't just keep the SSD. Our HR had this habit of keeping data on their laptops and MS proposed an extractor tool but then backed out forcing the HR people to go to standard laptops.

    Bottom line: the technological advances of the product have not been matched by technological advances in support which gives IT departments support headaches as the Surface woos business users very well. Its good for those who need to flaunt it less so for those that need to work it even though it has the grunt.

    1. cd / && rm -rf *
      Trollface

      Re: Not the Only Issue

      "the SSD is stuck/moulded into the unit so if you keep sensitive data and the unit needs replacing you can't just keep the SSD"

      Oh, really? Just hand out a few Dremels...

      http://surfacepro3ssdupgrade.blogspot.co.uk/2015/02/surface-pro-3-ssd-upgrade-i7-with-1-tb.html

      1. Hans 1 Silver badge
        Windows

        Re: Not the Only Issue

        >>"the SSD is stuck/moulded into the unit so if you keep sensitive data and the unit needs replacing you can't just keep the SSD"

        >Oh, really? Just hand out a few Dremels...

        >http://surfacepro3ssdupgrade.blogspot.co.uk/2015/02/surface-pro-3-ssd-upgrade-i7-with-1-tb.html

        True, so much less of a pain than two screws!

    2. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge
      Holmes

      Re: Not the Only Issue

      Bottom line: the technological advances of the product have not been matched by technological advances in support which gives IT departments support headaches as the Surface woos business users very well. Its good for those who need to flaunt it less so for those that need to work it even though it has the grunt.

      Bottom line: The technological advances are unripe and sheer flimflammery propelled by glitzy graphics. Business users should stop buying overpriced gear that tries to be more than it can be, and is useful only for impressing co-meeters or the lady from accounts. Buy proper work gear instead. It's easier on the shareholders and customers. It's also a policy that will help getting through the post-crash period. Which will be around soon.

  31. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    SWMBO

    Swmbo bought a Pro3 from Chinese based box-shifter, and it had the same problem but worse - 9 times out of 10 it simply wouldn't turn on after sleeping.

    She returned it to the reseller and they sent it back in the same state, then went silent to all pleas and emails.

    I got onto MS support (this was now months after buying it), had an online chat with support and ended up with a paid-for return slip.

    Two weeks later, brand new Pro3 arrives, and it's worked perfectly ever since (almost a year now).

    Maybe if you ask for a replacement, rather than your money back, 'cos when they work they're lovely pieces of kit... (If it weren't for the fact that it's windows etc. etc..)

  32. stephanh Silver badge

    some suggestions

    If you really want to debug this, here are some ideas.

    First I would find out if it is really sleep mode which is playing up, and not hibernate. So hibernate the machine explicitly and check if the problem does then occur.

    If the problem is indeed with sleep mode ONLY, then you can use powercfg on an elevated CMD prompt to configure STANDBYIDLE to 0 (i.e. no sleep). System will then only go to hibernate.

    Alternatively, the issue might be with hibernate, so you can then disable that instead.

    (I understand you could do the same thing from the group policy editor but that is unavailable on my lowly Home SKU.)

    Microsoft - relying on unpaid volunteers for support since 1990

  33. Mark Chapman

    Yes it was an issue, maybe hardware now.

    I think there could be a hardware issue, although initially a more widespread software one. I bought the SB (also top of range) when it became available in the UK in Feb to reports of the Sleep of Death, and initially yes it would come back from suspend either totally zombied with low battery of a full BSOD (had never seen a BSOD in win 8/8.1/10).

    However after a regular series of firmware and driver updates, it's now rock solid (for at least as long as it was failing), there must be another common denominator, either faulty hardware or some common crapware like Adobe reader (a doc application that installs a SERVICE to check for updates?)

  34. handle

    "the stylus became part of the detritus... in the bottom of my laptop bag"

    Yes, that was a big mistake - unlike Samsung Notes, there is no holster for the stylus. I'd much rather have a slightly less comfortable slimmer stylus than none at all because it's been lost or left at home. Oh, and as it knows when the stylus is in the holster, it can be programmed to save power by not looking for it when it knows it's not there.

  35. MonkeyCee Silver badge

    You're doing it wrong

    The writer appears to have no real idea of how to deal with faulty goods.

    The important rules here are whatever consumer guarantees apply in your country/state, and "paper is magic".

    First, check your consumer rights. If they can sell you something, and you only have 30 days and that's it, then tough luck, stop whining. If not, then when the sales droid insists they can't, get them to confirm it in writing, right there and then. Won't accept my return for some bullshit? Please write out your bullshit, so I can file a complaint.

    Proving you're a difficult/savvy customer will often result in a sudden "one off" replacement of your device.

    Then, once your sales grunt has denied you, and given you a reason for (written, they'll claim all sorts of shit if you rely on talking or email), then lodge a return request or complaint with the manufacturer. Not make bitchy comments on twitter, or contact support. Complaints or returns, and send a real letter.

    The reason for all this laws, writing and sending real letters is that Legal cares about it. If you're going to spaff off at the easiest channels, then suck it up, they'll ignore you. If you bother to go through their (undoubtedly roundabout and inconvenient by design) return/complaints channels, and bother to fill in the paperwork, and send a letter noting what laws they are violating, they will pay attention.

    Not only does this work with your usual physical goods, if you want someone to take your complaint seriously, then write a real letter. Because paper is magic. And the courts value paper >>> email, since it has an "independent" truth.

    So darling writer, instead of twattering, emailling and writing articles about it, write complaints/returns a letter, and see what happens. You may well be shit out of luck for a refund (unless you can prove it lost you money) but you should be able to wrangle a replacement.

  36. DougS Silver badge

    My generic Dell Inspiron laptop does this perfectly

    Running Linux. Yes, Linux, which had problems with entering sleep mode properly for years due to undocumented bugs in ACPI.

    Pretty sad that Microsoft's flagship product is such a piece of shit, but I'm hardly surprised at their attitude once they've got your money. That's why once people buy hardware from Microsoft, they never do so a second time. Unless they're a glutton for punishment, or just stupid.

  37. OffBeatMammal

    Not just the Four and Book, the Three has the same issue... in fact the overheating in my bag was a suspect in rapidly diminishing battery life (getting 40% of original charge a year on).

    Windows 10 and the Surface devices are disappointing. Sadly MacBook hardware hasn't improved much since 2012 either so options are limited (at least OSX is better behaved, unless you are a gamer)

    Run 'powercfg /energy' to check your battery health...

    1. OffBeatMammal

      Oh, and turn off Connected Standby on battery. That shit likes to suck the life out of your battery

    2. antiquam bombulum

      I had a similar, but not identical problem with my SP3. It would occasionally overheat while asleep, but that problem went away, to be replaced by one in which the Surface Cover driver would drop out of the list of devices in Device Manager. Naturally the keyboard would stop working. I would have to do a full re-start to get it back. This grew more frequent till it would happen as quickly as an hour after the last one. Once this phase of losing the keyboard driver every hour began, it also acquired the Sleep of Death syndrome too. Two 'nuke from orbit' system reinstalls failed to cure it. It was replaced under my extended warranty with a Surface Pro 4 and I have had zero problems in the 4 months I've had it. I took the option of purchasing a third-party 3-year extended warranty again (the original problem occurred after 14 months so the manufacturer's warranty had expired). Mine was diagnosed by the insurer's tech people as a motherboard problem. The fact that driver updates are not fixing these problems makes me suspect there may be windespread quality-control problems with the hardware. The things are a nightmare when they are not working properly, but this new one has been a delight.

  38. Wade Burchette

    $4000

    For that kind of cash, I could have bought a Windows 7 laptop with a 1 TB OPAL encryption SSD, non-touch 4K screen, and 16 GB of memory with money left over. I don't care how wonderful the Surface is -- and I have used a Surface so I agree it is an excellent product -- it is not worth that much money. I can name 101 things that would be a better use of my money.

  39. Kimberly Burgess

    I'm experiencing the same grief with my top end SB. I've taken to just shutting it down. Experienced the ”hot bag” when removing it from my carrying sleeve once so far. Sleep rarely resumes properly. I love the device, but this is annoying. At least it boots swiftly. Equally annoyed by Chrome crashing on the first startup after a boot.

  40. AndrueC Silver badge
    Meh

    Eventually I contacted Microsoft again by online chat

    Did you buy it from Microsoft? In the UK at least your contract is with the retailer and they should be the people you contact. Also at less than six months since purchase the assumption is that it's a manufacturing defect. Not sure how it works in the US but over here I'd just take the item back to the shop and demand a refund. It's not a slam dunk after more than 30 days but with something like a laptop it's unlikely they could refuse. They'd find it difficult to prove otherwise and most would just cave in and pay you to go away.

    1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      "Also at less than six months since purchase the assumption is that it's a manufacturing defect."

      Given that the problem seems to be hit and miss it certainly sounds like a manufacturing defect. Either faulty batches of some component, substitution of alleged-but-not-quite equivalents, different plants with different build quality or maybe different firmware builds. I'm no great fan of ISO9000 but ISTM that if they were meeting that they'd at least be consistently bad - or good.

  41. AdamKR

    My original Surface Pro didn't have any issues under 8.1, has turned into a bit of a pile of shit with regards to sleep under Windows 10. Shame, I really like the Surface hardware and *you would think* that hardware and OS from the same company would Just Work.

  42. Cypherdude

    Do Your Research Before Buying Anything Expensive

    If you are going to spend $4K on a tablet, you'd better do your research. It doesn't matter who is selling it. 5 years ago I bought both my Lenovo 15.6" i5 laptop and another Lenovo 15.6" laptop model for someone else. Neither is giving any problems. Although, they are bit slow since they both have 5400 RPM HDD's. I upgraded both to 8GB RAM. I've been intending to upgrade the HDD on my laptop for some time and I'm glad I waited since SSD's are getting cheaper. For my main desktop PC, I researched every single part which went into it. You can see my PC I use everyday by searching (see first & last 2 minutes): video pwNJto6VWE8

    It appears the quality of many products, not just laptops and tablets, has dropped in the last few years. Since you were going to spend $4K on a tablet, which is a large amount for a tablet, you really should have learned everything you could have about the Surface Book.

    Personally, I would never spend that much on a tablet, especially since it's something I would only use on the road. Imagine if someone stole it. The most I would spend on a new laptop, and I still like my Lenovo i5, would be on a new Lenovo Flex 3 15.6" i7 16GB. The Flex 3 also has a touchscreen and can fold 2 ways.

    Thanks for writing about the Surface Book's sleep/crashing problem though.

  43. FlippingGerman

    My SP4 does this, always has since the day I bought it. The red light for the IR camera comes on, but the screen stays resolutely black, and generally requires a two-button restart to fix (hold down power and volume up for ages).

    My solution is to hibernate after just 10 minutes - any longer and I can't trust it to come on again. Hibernate isn't too bad though, it's awake in less than 30 seconds, but it's far from ideal.

    Microsoft seem to be doing their best to be regarded as arseholes about the whole thing - forced Win10 updates, and shitty Surface support. Not bad for a £1400 machine.

  44. rhydy

    Statutory rights

    In many countries consumer law would overrule any policy on refunds. In the UK I am confident that statutory rights would apply in a case where a device had a faulty sleep function. In which case the retailer would get one chance to remedy the situation (replacement) then if it still isn't working as it should a full refund would be expected. I think we have 12 months.

    Hopefully your refund would include office and then you could use libre office and save hundreds.

  45. Captain Badmouth
    Terminator

    UK consumer rughts

    http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/shopping/consumer-rights-refunds-exchange

    Lots of links on here.

    Take it to (small claims?) court, guys!

    Icon : Your friendly, neighbourhood M$ IT support droid.

  46. anthonyhegedus Silver badge

    What do you expect from a Microsoft laptop? It's running Windows. Windows is a joke OS.

    1. stephanh Silver badge
      Linux

      Windows might very well be a joke OS, but other vendors appear to be able to produce laptops which are capable of running it somewhat competently.

      My personal theory is that Microsoft believes its own documentation, or, perhaps more correctly, doubting the documentation on the flag-ship Windows product is a career-limiting move. Therefore they produce a laptop which would have worked under Windows if Windows worked as advertised. Other vendors are not under such delusions.

      Chances are the SB will run fine under Linux, though...

  47. Novatone

    Possible fix, Based on Surface Pro 4

    The Surface Pro 2 had a similar problem, it would stick in sleep/wake limbo you had to hard boot to get it to do anything occasionally, the problem is largely fixed now, by firmware and driver updates that were pleasantly automatic.

    I had the problem on my Surface Pro 4 as well, dead battery, hot in the bag, etc.

    Here is the basic work around, disable Windows Hello (Settings > Accounts > Sign-In Options)

    Disable connected standby on battery (Settings > System> Power and Sleep)

    I may have changed some other settings but I can't remember.

    The problem seems to be caused by wake being triggered accidentally, the system wakes at the slightest touch of the power button (I accidentally put mine to sleep as I typed that by brushing the power button accidentally while using the on-screen keyboard near the top of the screen) it also wakes when the power cord is connected or disconnected.

    With the face recognition turned on it will not give up and go back to sleep, it just runs flat out looking for a face until the battery is dead or it overheats (or it did the last time I used it).

    I submitted a feedback suggestion, disabled 'hello' and really haven't had a problem since.

  48. oiseau Silver badge
    WTF?

    Really?

    I'm rather baffled. Maybe because it's saturday and all, but ...

    Is this an unexpected attitude from M$?

    Is anyone truly surprised at all?

    I would think that by now (it's 2016, OK?) everyone would know what to expect from Microsoft, both software and hardware wise.

    Have a good week-end.

  49. jrd

    Windows sleep

    I've run two Lenovo laptops running XP and Windows 7 for the last 5 years - both sleep reliably (very occasional problems with applications which stop the machine sleeping but they are easy to spot).

    Must say I'd find an the inability to sleep/resume reliably as a dealbreaker for a laptop!

  50. Dwarf Silver badge

    30 day warranty ?

    So, they are effectively claiming a 30 day warranty.

    Wow, just wow. You would have thought that :

    1. They might care about people actually buying their product (a far smaller group these days). and ensure that they are happy with the product. Bugs, Hardware problems or similar are all defects in the product.

    2. They may have heard about consumer protection laws.

    3. In the UK there is a law that requires companies to repair machines for up to 6 years after purchase.(Google for it, its really useful !)

    It seems that Microsoft is run by a bunch people who are just so far disconnected from reality that its untrue.

    This reminds me of the days when Sony used to be the "go-to" for TV and multimedia products. Times change. Others will replace them.

    I used to be Windows only, but now the only Windows I use is that that is at my customers offices.when they won't me me use something else.

    1. Richard 12 Silver badge

      Re: 30 day warranty ?

      In the European Union there is a law that requires them to repair, replace or refund any consumer product with a manufacturing defect.

      There is no time limit.

      During the first 6 months, all faults are assumed to be manufacturing defects, unless obviously otherwise.

      This is one of the reasons the EU is great.

      1. This post has been deleted by its author

  51. Ken Moorhouse Silver badge

    The Dilbert solution...

    http://dilbert.com/strip/1995-04-03

  52. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Sue them

    Don't know what your consumer protection laws are like in your state but here in the UK it would be a fairly simple small claims court case, both breach of contract (you requested a return within their stated returns period and was ignored) and product not fit for purpose/defective. If a complaint is genuine my experience is that most companies fold once they receive the court summons as actually offering some decent customer service is cheaper than defending a court case.

    1. Tannin

      Re: Sue them

      Any consumer protection law covers this.

      (If you have something called "consumer protection law" in your jurisdiction and it doesn't even cover a basic "goods faulty, refund or replacement required" situation like this one, then it isn't a consumer protection law at all.)

  53. ecofeco Silver badge

    This is NOT new

    The sleep and even hibernation of death has been around since XP. Along with sloppy as hell wifi management, I've been dealing with this shit for over a decade.

    1. Updraft102 Silver badge

      Re: This is NOT new

      Perhaps (I've only seen it once, and it was easily fixed by replacing the generic Windows drivers with the correct specific ones, but YMMV), but this is a state of the art, MS branded flagship device, fully up to date, with their latest and greatest OS installed.

      As at least one other poster hinted, Apple is the manufacturer of their hardware and the OS, and that's often cited (and rightfully so) as an advantage in quality assurance that doesn't exist in competing products. Now Microsoft releases such a product, a very costly one that has that same advantage, and... it doesn't work correctly.

  54. Howard Hanek Bronze badge
    Childcatcher

    A Modest Suggestion

    Microsoft probably didn't properly screen out those narcoleptic developers..........

  55. Aslan

    Open a dispute with credit card company

    Here in the USA sometimes a credit card company will offer special services in addition to simply a line of credit. I have a Chase Visa card and they offer 90 days of purchase protection. Chase while relentless bill collectors are pleasant when you pay on time. I've used the purchase protection in two instances. First I purchased a One Plus One aka discount Chinese flagship spec phone. The phone made a great tablet, but the cellphone reception varied with the atmospheric temperature to the point it was impossible to reliably use it as a phone. I went round and round with OnePlus about this wasting 16 hours with tech support enduring 6 system wipes and restores. OnePlus wanted to submit me to more of the same. I reported my problems to Chase and they said it sounded defective. They had me return the device and refunded my money same day. Second example. I tried an MVNO called FreedomPop and the first two months billing were fine, then a payment didn't go through, perhaps because I changed my billing address and didn't use the updated one. They cut my service off and refused to answer my calls over the holiday weekend. Yes, I understand people should get holidays, but they cut my phone off and refused to restore it greatly upsetting me. Finally on that Tuesday, They made me provide another card. They billed that, and updated the billing info. Then they charged the original card. The next month they billed both cards. I called them and they refunded it. It happened the following month. Again I called and refunded it, saying if it happened again I'd have to take the matter up with Chase. It happened again. Chase initiated a chargeback for me, and blocked FreedomPop from making any further charges to that account. FreedomPop refused to allow me to use their service after that and refunded me an additional months service.

    I also like to make purchases through Paypal, they're even better than Chase in their buyer protection.

    Here's some generic details of Chase's buyer protection with a CC. It varies per card.

    https://www.chase.com/content/chasecom/en/card-benefits/benefit-details/freedom_vp/purch_protect_500_v1.html

    Can repair, replace or reimburse you for eligible items in the event of theft or damage when items are purchased with an eligible Chase card or with rewards earned on an eligible Chase card

    Coverage is in excess of any valid and collectible insurance such as homeowner's insurance, or other forms of reimbursement

    Up to a maximum of $500 per claim and up to $50,000 per account

    So I'm not sure exactly how it would work in the authors case, but he might be able to get $500 back and keep the Surface 4, and that would be a nice punch in the gut to Microsoft.

  56. ro55mo

    $4000!

    If anything, ANYTHING went wrong with a $4000 laptop I would be in a rage beyond measure. Such a device should be perfect.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: $4000!

      Yes, the irony of a far more reliable Apple device being considerably cheaper is blistering :).

      Dear Microsoft, selling high value kit isn't just a matter of a bigger price tag and adding bling - it NEEDS TO WORK. Granted, that's a requirement you lost touch with over the many years you've been getting away with excuses, but I reckon this one is going to bite worse than Vista because you're not only of of excuses, with that price point you are also DIRECTLY affecting the decision makers. Uh oh..

      Wide, wide grin..

  57. Sil

    Very likely Intel's fault

    While I clearly agree Microsoft should own up to non working products and reimburse customers who use the sleep mode, it seems very likely that the problem originates in Intel's faulty 6th generation components.

    MSFT will remember for a long time what it's like to use brand new silicon.

    1. jaime

      Re: Very likely Intel's fault

      If this is true we should be getting tons of similar complaints from all the Apple folks buying the new Apple laptops with the new CPUs also.

  58. Tannin

    Back to the future indeed! This is exactly how sleep mode worked on Windows 95 and 98.

    Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

  59. Captain Badmouth
    Happy

    More consumer links

    http://www.legalbeagles.info/forums/showthread.php?171-Some-handy-guides-%28Sale-of-Goods-Act%29

    https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/

  60. PickledAardvark

    It isn't 1995 any longer...

    Addison Snell: "That may be a hefty price tag for a laptop, but I prefer to max out an initial configuration — not because I’m a power user or advanced gamer, but in hopes of prolonging my system’s lifespan and delaying the always painful process of migrating to a new system."

    The concept of buying IT kit a bit more nifty than you need at the moment -- future proofing -- has been around for decades. Depending on your circumstances, the concept may deliver dreadful/fantastic results.

    For those people who do compute intensive work, I've always believed in "buying twice" rather than future proofing. Buy a computer that is better than a conventional enterprise PC but half the price of a monster workstation, then use it for two years. After two years, swap it for the contemporary replacement. Over the four year cycle, you'll get more fun or MIPs.

    I've never used the migration systems proffered by Apple and Microsoft on personal computers for device changes, except for experimental purposes. I understand, however, that they work well. All of my stuff can be found in fewer than ten folder structures. Having recovered crap from family and friends crisis computers, I don't regard shifting it from a functioning PC to a new device as a difficult exercise.

  61. Sean Timarco Baggaley

    "Sleep", "Hibernate", etc. are engineering kludges.

    <RANT>

    I grew up using computers like the ZX81 and the RM Link 380Z, so I don't expect anything like perfection. These days, I'm happy if I only find myself swearing at the f*cking machine once or twice a day. They're all shit. Every single manufacturer. Every OS. All of them. And don't get me started on the Internet, which is an entire onion's worth of circles of Hell unto itself.

    There are many, many things wrong with the IT industry, but Microsoft and Apple aren't one of them. It is notorious for fetishising its past, while rarely learning its lessons. After 30-odd years, I'm resigned to seeing few IT products on sale I would consider genuinely fit for purpose. Almost all of it is unspeakable shite. But I don't expect the moon on a stick from an industry so conservative and close-minded that it still thinks an ancient relic like Unix is cool.

    "Sleep", "Hibernate", etc. are all engineering kludges. They exist only because it takes so fucking long for a modern computer to boot up. A Sinclair ZX Spectrum or Commodore 64 could boot into a complete (albeit text-based) IDE in less than a second, while a modern laptop takes noticeably longer, regardless of its operating system, and despite the latter having many orders of magnitude more processing and graphics power, as well as an SSD for storage. Only in this industry can we take huge steps backwards and call it progress.

    And yet, somehow, operating systems based on Unix (or derived, however loosely from VMS) are still considered this industry's state of the art. Which is like Volkswagen or Toyota pointing and worshipping at the altar of British Leyland's engines and chassis designs.

    </RANT>

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: "Sleep", "Hibernate", etc. are engineering kludges.

      "There are many, many things wrong with the IT industry, but Microsoft and Apple aren't one of them"

      No, they are two of them

    2. ilmari

      Re: "Sleep", "Hibernate", etc. are engineering kludges.

      Sleep and hibernate are kludges fixing the high idle power consumption.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: "Sleep", "Hibernate", etc. are engineering kludges.

      I don't fully agree with your rant, partly because there's a lot more going on in a modern machine than the ZX Spectrum ever had to cope with, but I'm with you on boot times.

      I'm amazed that nobody has ever come up with the idea of bypassing the sort of checks that really don't need to be done every time to shorten the boot cycle. I enabled verbose reporting on bootups just to have a look at it and it's dreadful just how much time gets wasted there.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: "Sleep", "Hibernate", etc. are engineering kludges.

        " I enabled verbose reporting on bootups just to have a look at it and it's dreadful "

        What you need is systemd, surely?

    4. Richard 12 Silver badge

      Re: "Sleep", "Hibernate", etc. are engineering kludges.

      Cold booting Linux can be done in under half a second - if the hardware is known and immutable.

      Windows can also go quite fast, though nowhere near as fast as Linux.

      A lot of the time spent during boot of a modern OS is hardware detection - the OS is checking to see if anything has changed or is new, so it can seamlessly bring it up or handle "missing" components in a better way than a black screen of death.

  62. Howard Hanek Bronze badge
    Happy

    Mystery Solved

    .....I was curious about WHY you never hear of any of our drones using MS software.........

  63. Chika

    The POS system must not be questioned...

    POS? Piece Of Shit?

  64. Updraft102 Silver badge

    Given that this is a convertible tablet/laptop, it's one of the very few devices where continuum is useful. I doubt installing Linux is really an option for the author.

    Even so, UEFI doesn't present a problem for Linux. UEFI is not the same as secure boot, though secure boot is part of UEFI (in other words, you can have UEFI without secure boot, but secure boot requires UEFI). In most PCs with secure boot, you can simply turn secure boot off, though I would be surprised if a Microsoft device had that option. Even so, several Linux distros do support secure boot, though that working depends on the OEM putting the MS keys for non-Windows in the firmware, as far as I know, and I would again be surprised (shocked, really) if MS had put this into their products. MS wants you locked in to MS Windows more than any other maker, naturally. Any other OEM wants to serve the needs of the customer, but as we've seen lately, MS only wants to serve the needs of MS.

  65. Sir_Hops_A_Lot

    This has happened to me with the Surface 1,3 and 4...........and I just now noticed -for the first time - the virtual 10-key keyboard screen in Windows 10 doesn't have a flippin' comma anywhere. You have to tab back over to the qwerty screen.

    There's an exclamation point because....that's useful when you're typing big numbers: $2!435!654.99 but no comma.

    Those twits at MS aren't even trying.

  66. Deltics

    Sounds like what we have here...

    ... is a failure .... to HIIiiiibernate.

    Yip

  67. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Not acceptable at that price point...but I suspect Win 10 rather than hardware

    I might take a dodgy sleep/wake cycle on a $399 laptop, but at $3k and up you are playing against Macbook Airs, and they do this sort of thing flawlessly. Don't want to (over)state the bleedin' obvious but one of the reasons that the iPad was such a success was that you picked it up, woke it up and it was good to go. Right Then.

    I see this problem on W10 on my kid's HP Envy and it's bloody annoying. Since I very much doubt that the HP and the SP4 share any hardware, I can only assume it is W10. So I guess I am gonna have to code my own fix. Does anyone know if it is possible to run arbitrary commands (e.g PowerShell) and bind them to the power key?

  68. ben_myers

    'Sleep of death' may be more widespread

    I have dealt with many laptops running Windows 7 or 10 having very similar symptoms. My hunch is that they are related to the 'Sleep of death'. Here is what I have seen. Customer calls and says her system won't start up, even though she pushes the power button repeatedly. She brings system over, I remove the battery and hold the power button down for 30 sec, put the battery back and the system boots right up. Questioning customer, she tells me she closed the lid on her computer while it was still running and it went to sleep. Well, even sleeping, it draws power from the battery. Finally, the battery runs down to zero, and the system is in a deep coma. When the power button is pressed, the laptop does not respond for some reason known only to Microsoft. or, in their sometimes blithering incompetence, UNknown to them. This problem has been around Since windows 7. I don't know about earlier.

    HP seems to know about this problem:

    http://h30434.www3.hp.com/t5/Notebook-Hardware-and-Upgrade-Questions/My-laptop-won-t-turn-on-when-I-push-the-power-button/td-p/1905373

    And it's not only an HPee problem. Happens with Lenovos, Dells, etc. It is a serious Windows problem, and maybe a pervasive hardware design problem.

    This all gets to to wondering whether or not Linux suffers from the same issue. I think I'll find out, setting up Linux Mint (as good as any) on a laptop, running down the battery to 5% charge or less, then closing the lid, and disconnecting the power. If the laptop starts up just fine from its sleep state and a fully discharged battery, the smoking gun will point a Microsoft. If the Linux laptop can't start up from its comatose state without intervention, then we know it is a serious design issue with laptops in general.

    1. Chemist

      Re: 'Sleep of death' may be more widespread

      "If the laptop starts up just fine from its sleep state and a fully discharged battery,"

      Little confused by this. I assume you mean a fully discharged battery but then plugged in and then waking from sleep.

  69. cortland

    Maybe, if they close it out at $200? … maybe not!

  70. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    So, let's quickly summarise this, then.

    From around Windows 3.11 onwards we have been told that the large amount of problems we had would go away if we stuck to approved hardware (read: manufacturers that paid the Microsoft tithe to be called that, less to do with quality) and kept up to date with patching etc etc etc - ad infinitum, all the way to today, and those ails naturally included everything to do with security.

    In other words, it was never Microsoft's fault, it was always the hardware, and the only reason something like Apple's OSX was more stable was because they were in control of their hardware.

    If you've followed Linux over that time you would have already known that that was complete BS, but now Microsoft is in control of the whole picture (hardware AND software), that excuse will no longer fly. As of today, it's clear that your problems are, indeed, 100% caused by Microsoft.

    Not that that will change anything, it has far too many livelihoods dependent on its many, many flaws but you're by now pretty much out of excuses if you're supposed to provide a service and you've chosen this platform.

    Now I'm pretty sure that the Microsoft astroturfers will show up in force and come up with the usual platitudes and rigged statistics to attempt changing black into white, but the facts don't lie. The excuses barrel has been well and truly emptied.

  71. AndrewDu

    Windows 8.1 has similar issues.

    I support loads of HP Elitepads running 8.1, and they can get into a state where they are fully charged but will not respond at all to the on/off button. I have about five that are useless because of this - I know there's nothing really wrong with them but they will not wake up whatever you do, so they're effectively bricked.

    It doesn't help that they mysteriously turn themselves back on when you shut them down, so you can put them away in a cupboard thinking they're powered off when actually they are not, the battery runs down, sleep-of-death kicks in, and after that you can leave them on charge for weeks (I've tried - weeks) and they will never start up again.

    It would help (and not just with this problem) if the power button was actually that - a hard switch that kills all power to the system, instead of just some weird kind of soft switch that invokes a software routine which may work if you're lucky and you hold your mouth right, but may just as well go into an endless loop of some kind.

    But I suppose that's like wishing for a real live physical connection between your right foot and the throttle control of your car - ain't gonna happen because electronics is "better" and what could possibly go wrong?

    The joys!

    PS Apple fanboyz, don't even start. Thanks.

  72. cmaurand

    Windows has always not slept well

    Why should windows 10 be any different from any other version of windows? I have a full blown laptop that overheats in the bag. My laptop doesn't come back from long periods of sleep, either. It's just windows. Win XP, Win 7 and Win 8 & 8.1 all had the problem.

    the thing is completely solid state. It takes, what, 10 seconds to boot up? Save your work, shut it down and save yourself the headache.

    If you want a device that reliably sleeps, look to and Android or iOS device.

    1. Scaleslifted

      Re: Windows has always not slept well

      Totally agree; see my comment

  73. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Shouldn't Computer Companies Be Held to Same Standard as Car Companies?

    Shouldn't Computer Companies Be Held to Same Standard as Car Companies? Car companies at times are required to issue recalls & fix issues at no cost. Why should computer companies be treated any differently?

    I've heard Intel Skylake also as a defect or two. I won't be buying anything with a Skylake processor in it.

  74. Alpc

    Either Microsoft sorts this out or Apple for me next time

    Have had Surface Pro 4 for a few months. Ended up with hot bag syndrome a couple of times and the thing fell asleep and locked up until power button pressed and held to reboot system.

    I don't put the thing to sleep much and tend to turn it off fully - to avoid the sleep of death issue so haven't had too many problems. When the thing does play up, detaching and reattaching the keyboard sometimes works.

    I've kind of come to regard the Surface as a keyboard-less laptop and not a tablet. Battery life is not too good and nowhere near as good as my iPad mini - which wakes up unfailingly when I hit its button.

    Despite the hassles, I like the Surface Pro owing to its ability to use real windows - something which Android and iDevices can't do.

    Hopefully Microsoft will sort this sleep issue out or else I'll go for a MacBook Air next time. In fact, I kind of wished I'd opted for a MacBook Air anyway - I'd miss the touchscreen though.

  75. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    The Pro 2 had a similar issue since windows 10 was released. It's still not fixed either.

  76. rometsch

    The "Sleep of Death Bug" hit me last week...

    ....just on the plane on the way to my customer.

    Because I was stupid, I had also participated in the W10 insider preview program with the Surface Book. (Slow ring, though)

    While the W10 insider versions work fine on all my other machines, the combo of the sleep of death bug and the W10 preview, led to a crash. The machine did not get beyond the light blue screen with circling dots.

    I had to re-image the machine.

  77. SkyFlyer

    You are spending 4 grand on a laptop and the main reason is the pain of migrating to another one sooner! Did you miss the whole internet and cloud storage thingy we have now in modern times? A 200 buck Chromebook sounds perfect and no 'Sleep of death that I know of.

  78. I'msoexcited

    Not wholly relevant, but I am planning on switching away from my iAir tab.

    Need to replace my PC (Win7) as well.

    Is it possible to instal Win 7 on ANY models ? Thanks.

  79. Josh 44

    Possible Fix for Sleep of Death

    I've had a similar problem with an ASUS laptop running Windows 10, usually when I unplug a USB device like a Lenovo external monitor and/or an external hard drive. A search for ASUS Sleep of Death led me to try the following:

    Device Manager > Univeral Serial Bus Controllers > USB Root Hub (xHCI) > Properties > Power Management > Turn Off "Allow the computer to turn off this device to save power."

  80. DrAndy

    It's the hardware

    People are being unjustifiably harsh on Windows here. I've built & installed several Windows NT, XP, Vista & 7 PC's. They all sleep perfectly fine with certain provisos:

    - Dodgy hardware (especially cheap USB devices) and/or dodgy device drivers are the sleep killer. Generally these will stop the computer suspending to sleep. I'm sure everyone knows about using powercfg to tell you what is going on.

    - Failure to resume from sleep or losing devices when you do is often a motherboard issue. I have had several such issues fixed by BIOS updates. I would generally say that sleep is the last thing to work properly when a new MB is released, that's why I tend to buy MB's that have been out for a year or so so that these issues have been resolved.

    - BUT the biggest cause of resume from sleep issues in my experience is faulty DRAM. It's the one thing I check really carefully and I immediately send back new DRAM if sleep seems unreliable. I have the exact same machine sleep flawlessly with certain DRAM and not at all with others. Generally the more outside spec the DRAM is running (i.e. overvolted or overclocked) the worse things are and also the damage appears to be permanent. I now will never run DRAM at anything other than JDEC standard settings.

    YMMV.

  81. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    This is not only a surface issue.... I've been getting exactly the same problem with my HP Envy. Listening to this, it's clearly a windows 10 issue. It's so annoying as my phone is far more reliable. Some fix needs to be done for this ASAP as I'm on the verge of going back to my Mac.

  82. Telcoguy
    Linux

    US Resources

    Mr. Snell, you're the CEO of a US company, if you bought the defective product domestically then there are some agencies that can come into play that I've used successfully in resolution of this type of problem - Better Business Bureau, State Attorney General, State Consumer Board ( if any), Federal Trade Commission.

    I personally hate having to resort to this type of escalation but corporate greed and arrogance sometimes leave us no recourse. If mute people reached out to these when they have a legitimate problem then we might see quicker action. Microsoft is a favorite target of the feds! Good luck!!

    ig

  83. Floppy8

    Disable S3 sleep

    Hi, I had that same bug...

    I took a tip from someone in a MS forum suggesting to disable advanced sleep... I think that is called S3. You can disable it in the registry and then sleep will work just like on a regular laptop. It won't wake up as fast as an iPad, but it's better than risking the sleep of death.

  84. Sparks_

    Same thing sarted happening on W7 on an HP laptop a few months ago after some of their "updates". A slept computer will wake up in the middle of the night, churn for a while, then sleep again (sometimes). Frequently it will not return to sleep and drain the battery, with no crash dump or saved files. Other times it fails to sleep and overheats (in briefcase after it wakes up). I've caught this a few times. A few nights ago it woke from sleep in the wee hours of the morning (just happened to be awake and saw and heard it wake up), opening the lid there's no screen on, or response to any user input.

    My guess is they screwed up the power management long ago, and have been getting away with it by luck or ignorance. Now they have a monoculture device that just happens to exhibit the failure frequently, and this not blamed on odd machines or user configuration.

  85. sitta_europea

    Legal niceties.

    It appears that this product was purchased in the USA. I know nothing about consumer protection law in the USA.

    In the UK, if the product that you have purchased is not of merchantable quality and fit for purpose, and it seems to me that you have a strong case to make that it is not, then under UK law a seller cannot rely on "our POS system doesn't let us make refunds after 30 days" nor any other lame excuses of that sort to avoid their legal obligations to a buyer.

    It might not be in your favour that you did not ask for a refund sooner. The supplier could argue that you have accepted the faulty goods, and if it went to Court the Court might agree and it might not. However, you did make timely and numerous attempts to have the problem fixed, and the supplier's very poor response appears to have contributed to the delay before you actually did ask for the refund, all of which goes in your favour.

    In your shoes, my next step would be to write a letter to the supplier outlining the whole, sad saga and demanding a refund within the next seven days.

    I should also be asking myself if I paid for the item using a credit card, since in that case, again in the UK, the card company would also very likely be liable for the non-performance of the supplier.

    This might not help the author of the article very much, but it might help others who are in the UK.

  86. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    He Who Spends $3100 on a Toy....

    Deserves what he gets.

    M$ and crashing are synonymous.

    Now for an Ubuntu upgrade to it.....

  87. aedvalson

    I have had this exact problem for months.

    I fixed this doing the following, at the recommendation of a MS Tech support agent:

    - Make sure all updates have been installed from windows update

    - Uninstall Surface System Telemetry, checking the box to remove device driver from system

    - Install the surface platform installer (https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/confirmation.aspx?id=49498)

    This will replace the driver for the Telemtry System with something different than has been installed by windows updates. I've had no sleep errors at all since I did this.

    1. imaginarynumber

      @aedvalson

      "This will replace the driver for the Telemtry System with something different than has been installed by windows updates. I've had no sleep errors at all since I did this."

      How long ago was that?

      Sorry, not doubting your probity.

  88. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    You really have to tip your hat to Microsoft

    It has so much money and resources at its disposal, and yet it keeps mucking up the hardware department.

    Not the first time. Refer to the Xbox 360's dreaded Red Ring of Death.

    Microsoft should probably stick to producing keyboards and mice. Those are definitely high quality, and you do need good competition to spur Logitech to greater heights...

  89. Bruce Ordway

    Hasn't hibernatation always sucked?

    Is this hibernation bug really much of a surprise?

    I recall numerous power "feature" issues. So many in fact the one of the first things I do is change power settings on new PCs/laptops. e.g. disable hibernation, screensavers, power button = off and close lid = do nothing.

    I can't seem to warm up to the new devices that are difficult to determine the "on/off" state or remove its batteries. I really could use a new laptop but so far have found reasons to postpone the purchase.

    1. imaginarynumber

      Re: Hasn't hibernatation always sucked?

      My only gripe with hibernation (on my Vaio Z11 with W7 and 6Gb of RAM)) is that it takes significantly longer to come out of hibernation than to boot from cold. That said it has not failed in over 6 years.

    2. jaime

      Re: Hasn't hibernatation always sucked?

      Yeah even Microsoft realized hibernation was getting a lot of bad press so they call it "hybrid" sleep now instead!

      Supposed to be new and improved version of hibernation LOL!

  90. Dieter Haussmann

    If you bought it on credit card, just call the card issuer and request a chargeback and then tell microsnot where to pickup their junk and buy a new Macbook Pro next month.

  91. John S

    A POS indeed

    ... and another fine reminder that Microsoft doesn't do hardware well -- c.f. the Xbox Red Ring of Death.

  92. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Is there not 1 year warranty on the thing? Don't know what country you are in but most consumer protection law requires the manufacture to refund if they cannot fix.

  93. Phil Kingston Silver badge

    Wow.

    I'd have not left that Microsoft store until they'd handed over a (shown-working) new unit.

    That support story is horrific.

  94. Hans 1 Silver badge
    Mushroom

    Sleepless in Redmond

    Yesterday, friends were over, we had a few beers, listening to music from computer connected to Yamaha amp via bluetooth. I had already noticed that, when I have bluetooth enabled on the laptop, it is able to power on the Yamaha amp, THIS IS EVIL! It does so when I wake it from sleep or start it.

    I went to bed at around 1AM, I closed the lid on my laptop and powered down the amp. This was gonna be a somewhat short night as I get up at 6AM. At around 4AM, Windows 10, running on the laptop with a closed lid, decided it was a good idea to wake up, power on the Yamaha amp and play some wonderful sounds (email notifications etc) through the Yamaha amp.

    BASTAAAAAAARDS!

  95. stevecim

    The only way I could improve "sleep of death"

    was to configure it to hibernate after 30mins of sleep. (surface pro 4) .

    on a positive note, it's getting better with every update. When I first starting using the Pro 4 last Oct, it was a piece of rubbish, it was worst PC I've used in 30 years working in IT .

    Now it's a lot better, no longer crashed once a day. :)

    Must admit, that after trying lots of options at home, DOS,Windows (3.0 - 10) OS2, linux, solaris, BeOS, BSD's, Amiga, At home I've settled on OSX, Fist tried a low end Mac Mini, when my last PC died , upgarded it to 16GB RAM ( OEM RAM) , 4 years now and still running fine. In the house hold now have 15" Mac Book Pro, 13" Air, 11" Air and the mini. in 4 years have never had a MAC not come out of sleep. have had other issues, but awaking from sleep is never one of them. :)

    ( no one in my house are big 3D gamers)

    At work we are rolling out 800+ Surface Pro 4's boy has that been fun :)

    Some of the other issues with the Pro 4 , no battery for CMOS clock, leaving a Pro4 sitting on a shelf for 2+ months , CMOS clock stops running and you can't reset the time bios. the only way to fix the time is to connect it to the internet, which is a pain with domain joined machine, can't login if the time sync is out etc.... :) and the dock was next to useless until the latest firmware came out.

  96. Hans 1 Silver badge
    FAIL

    >Some of the other issues with the Pro 4 , no battery for CMOS clock, leaving a Pro4 sitting on a shelf for 2+ months , CMOS clock stops running and you can't reset the time bios. the only way to fix the time is to connect it to the internet, which is a pain with domain joined machine, can't login if the time sync is out etc.... :) and the dock was next to useless until the latest firmware came out.

    Seriously ? No, SERIOUSLY ? it's yesterday once more!

    Who in their right mind buyz a computer WITHOUT CMOS battery, these days ? It is a "feature" I expect on all computers, OK, except some hacker soc's like raspberry pi etc ... and for $4000 you should be entitled to one, right ?

    Just OUCH!

    As for Apple, I used to love their kit, I have a few macbooks and macbook pro's around here, but the newer models are nogos coz of the non-replaceable memory (RAM, SSD), and to the other tw@t, Dremel IS NOT A FSCK*ing option!

  97. CheesyTheClown

    stopped happening on mine.

    I was an early adopter and got mine a few days after the i7 512gb started shipping... had the problem A LOT and now I don't. No idea why it went away, but ever since it did, it's been the best machine I've ever owned. I knew going in I should expect some bumps... I must admit though, I really miss Windows 8... it was the best OS Microsoft ever made :( Unfortunately, a bunch of whiner babies said "I'm too stupid to live without my start menu"... so Microsoft killed it with 10 :(

  98. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I don't think the sleep issues are isolated to SP4 - our new work machines are W10 and suffer the same flakey issues. I thought it was related to the build they had put on it, but looks like it's an undocumented feature of the OS.

    A lot of my peers aren't phased by it; as they're Windows users throughout their life; as someone who uses a Mac at home, it really grates on you, as you know this isn't acceptable.

  99. Scaleslifted

    Nothing new for me!

    I have been experiencing the same effects for years on a variety of laptops running windows Vista, Win 7 and Win 10. Totally annoying but have lived with it and learned to shut down each night and boot up fresh in the morning.

  100. DaveNullstein

    No laptop is worth $3,199

    Unless you have a very specific itch that it very competently scratches.

  101. JVM

    I'm having same problems, took laptop to Microsoft store, they want me to rebuild the laptop - reinstall everything. that will be 12 hours i'll never get back. DISGUSTED WITH MICROSOFT!!!

  102. oldmsguy

    Thanks!

    I came across this while evaluating purchasing either a Surface Book 2 or Surface Pro 6. You've convinced me NOT to purchase either of those devices, and have likely saved me a great deal of frustration. Thanks so much!!

POST COMMENT House rules

Not a member of The Register? Create a new account here.

  • Enter your comment

  • Add an icon

Anonymous cowards cannot choose their icon

Biting the hand that feeds IT © 1998–2019