back to article Hey Windows 10, weren't you supposed to help PC sales?

Very few if any ever thought Windows 10 would truly reinvigorate the PC industry, and they were right - IDC has pulled down forecasts on traditional device sales for 2016. The analyst has clipped unit expectations by a couple of per cent, claiming global notebooks and desktops shipments into channels are now on course to …

  1. Lee D Silver badge

    Why would Windows 10 invigorate PC sales when all your Windows 7/8 machines are being made to upgrade to Windows 10 for free and the system requirements are pretty much identical?

    I mean, it's not even like you have to "buy a new machine for the new Windows" as an excuse any more.

    If anything Windows 10 should have stopped PC sales dead in the water, because your old clunker is still able to be upgraded to Windows 10 without you having to do anything.

    1. chivo243 Silver badge

      "without you having to do anything"

      You do need to click something or other right? and then next(many times?) and then I accept, and by that time you're feeling like you probably shouldn't...

      My desktops will either run Win7 until they die, or Win7 runs out of support. Who knows, I may have already migrated the winboxen to some flavor of Linux... MS on the desktop is no longer an option at home.

    2. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge

      Stopping PC sales Dead!

      Have you ever given any thought that this might all be part of the 'Grand (aka Cunning) Plan'?

      Now that MS are PC makers with the SurfaceBook is it in their interests to let the likes of HP, Dell, Lenovo etc keep their majority share of the market?

      It might be the plan that MS drive these out of the market and leave them as the only player in town.

      After all, they want to be more like Apple (with their 30+% margin on hardware) don't they?

      Blackadder would be smiling at the thought.

      Del-Boy would be salivating.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Stopping PC sales Dead!

        So cunning in fact as to be indistinguishable from madness.

        They totally dominate the desktop and laptop market with the help of their hardware partners, and pull more than enough software and service revenue from that. You honestly think they would jeopardize that to sell a bit more low-margin hardware?

        >> After all, they want to be more like Apple (with their 30+% margin on hardware) don't they?

        Er. No. No they don't...

        1. John Doe 6

          Re: Stopping PC sales Dead!

          Oh Yes, they do... everything else would be pure stupidity.

          They actually quite DESPERATELY need to become "more like Apple" because they are quite fast becoming not relevant.

          Apple is making more money with less effort than Microsoft ever did... and are far more popular than Microsoft.

          1. KeithR

            Re: Stopping PC sales Dead!

            "Apple is making more money with less effort than Microsoft ever did... and are far more popular than Microsoft"

            Eh?

            What planet is this on?

            1. John Doe 6

              Re: Stopping PC sales Dead!

              Which part of it did you not understand ?

            2. Pookietoo

              Re: What planet is this on?

              I took that to mean "far more popular with their users".

      2. mmeier

        Re: Stopping PC sales Dead!

        Not really. They basically make only three systems:

        An Atom tablet pc with NTrig (Surface/3)

        A core-i tablet pc with NTrig (Surface Pro/4)

        A 2-1/convertible with NTrig (Surface Book)

        They do not produce a simple notebook or desktop, they do not have a WACOM unit (and some people prefer WACOM), no "rugged" systems and only "low power consumption" CPU so not the first choice for a "replaces all" unit either. That leaves quite a bit of market for the others. And MS is not cheap, the units are priced relatively close to some of the competitors systems of similar capabilities.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      We can only assume that the 3 down votes for what you posted are for not showing more hatred to win10, or using "m$" or "slurp" in your post.

      1. This post has been deleted by a moderator

      2. Version 1.0 Silver badge

        3 down votes

        No - they are probably from Surface users.

    4. bombastic bob Silver badge

      getting it slightly wrong

      "Why would Windows 10 invigorate PC sales when all your Windows 7/8 machines are being made to upgrade to Windows 10 for free and the system requirements are pretty much identical?"

      in many ways, *THIS* proves a point, but not that windows 10 'up'grades are causing the problem...

      "If anything Windows 10 should have stopped PC sales dead in the water, because your old clunker is still able to be upgraded to Windows 10 without you having to do anything."

      But the 'old clunker', particularly if it's running Windows 7, is still a "good machine". *THEN*, you look at an 'Ape' (8) machine, or a Win-10-nic machine, and you say *errrgh* and stick your tongue out and DO! NOT! BUY! A! NEW! COMPUTER! because the *OLD CLUNKER* is *STILL* *BETTER* than either of those two systems, and it's getting HARDER to find a 7 machine with "new features" on it.

      so why bother buying a new one? *EXACTLY*!

      THAT is the reason Win-10-nic is *KILLING* PC sales, same as "Ape" did it. The *NEW* machines are *NOT* perceived as *BETTER*.

    5. Mark 85 Silver badge

      I was in the local computer shop to get some parts. They're not one of the big boys but a very small local chain of 3 shops. What they're seeing is Win7 boxes and laptops flying off the shelves and it's been hard keeping up with the demand. They've also been selling PC's, etc. with Linux on them in what they consider "high" numbers. The Win10 stuff is barely moving.

      One can still find Win7 at the big guys like Best Buy, but it's something you order and takes a few days for delivery. Nothing Win7 in the stores. I wonder if anyone is actually paying attention to sales numbers and what people want?

    6. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Exactly. I don't think a lot of people are going to buy new hardware just to get Windows 10. Microsoft is giving it to them for free on their existing machine. No argument to buy new PCs on hardware specs either, most people have more than they need there. I would say it is fairly neutral... Microsoft is probably picking off quite a bit of business with Surface from the OEMs. I'm not sure if that counts as a PC or a tablet.

      1. RoboticRabbit

        They aren't so much "giving it away for free" as they are trying to jam it into any unprotected orifice they can locate.

        1. Danny 14 Silver badge

          We still run W8.1 on new machines we purchase (the odd laptop) as we exercise our downgrade rights. As for the bulk of our machines, they are very old OptiPlex 760s and 780's - 3GHz core 2 duos with 4GB RAM. They were given a facelift 18 months ago with 120GB SSDs (£45 per unit, Kingston). This has pretty much negated the need for any machines to be purchased, a chunk are over 5 years old and still going strong. Spares are plentiful and I can buy refurbished to plug any failure gaps.

          There is simply no need to upgrade our machines (short of catastrophic losses). Sure it can be seen as storing problems for the future (they will die some time) but when budgets were slashed it was easier for me to repair and upgrade what we have - SSDs were a godsend (a dual core 3GHz is more than enough for internet/office/lightweight picture and video editing). Only our autocad suite were upgraded properly (even those only got refurbished i5s and cheap GFX cards)

      2. mmeier

        Well, a 2011 core-i unit runs Win10 just fine, actually a bit faster and with less memory needs that it ran the original Win7. So why get a new unit if I do not need some special features (like MiraCast)?

        As for the Surface - my guess is MS will take from the OEM in the privat sector (Surface/3 and Surface/Pro are in the big chains Mediamarkt/Saturn here in D) and less from the companies that buy "one source". Ie all our units are Lenovo and that includes tablet pc (Thinkpad/10 and some Helix-B)

        And in the privat sector they mostly take from iThingy and Fandroid. The latter is happening quite a bit around here since even a used TPT10 will run circles around any Andy tablet or tablet-pc once you need more than one complex PDF open or review/comment a more complex document.

    7. illiad

      It HAS NOT worked, due to the shambolic way MS has handled it...

      Shoving a half complete OS onto windows update, causing shocks and lost files, to say nothing about a 'simple windows update' taking hours to complete, it then does a restart, taking another hour, then says, resources incompatible' and proceeds to 'restore to last system' taking another few hours!

      (Personally experienced, on an old laptop, that most 'low income' people use!!!)

      And how about the poor guys, using a *limited download* dongle on their PC to save money due to low income??? - they are very hapy with the limit, they dont do that much internet...

      - then windows starts doing 'update' of 2 or 3 GIG!!! (user thinks it is just update, not whole OS!!) -

      - He gets back to PC, finding he has run out of downloads... >:(

      IF MS had just released a Disc with it on, it may have been received better.... :/

  2. jason 7

    Slow news day?

    Don't we have this or a similar article every 3-4 weeks? I guess it's better than the usual "10 Top Tech Fails" lists you usually see on other sites on such days.

  3. Richard Jones 1
    WTF?

    The Purpose of 10

    I understood the idea of 10 was to re-launch the Windows store which was to push, sell or whatever its 'apps', (Appliances?, Apologies? Apostrophes? Apparatus? or whatever). As such I guess the thinking was that it had to get the greatest number of users ASAP.

    Is someone now saying that it was intended to sell more hardware? At least being a 'cross over OS' perhaps they thought it might open a bridgehead for future hardware upgrades.

    However, expecting magic hardware numbers from a very depressed and rather direction-less market was never going to be an assured success.

    If the hardware cannot sell itself, why should the OS sell unwanted stuff?

    1. Bob Vistakin
      Facepalm

      Re: The Purpose of 10

      The purpose of Windows 10 is to stuff ads down users throats at OS level.

      Microsoft are always late to the party, and when they finally get there find it changed to fancy dress but no-one told them. This time they've seen how their entire business is headed toiletwards so think they can do a Google.

    2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: The Purpose of 10

      "Is someone now saying that it was intended to sell more hardware?"

      If you were a H/W manufacturer this is exactly what you'd think it was for.

    3. Longtemps, je me suis couche de bonne heure

      Re: The Purpose of 10

      Asparagus? Armadillos? Amadeus?

    4. mmeier

      Re: The Purpose of 10

      Not really. The shop is the same, the Win8.x apps run on W10. W10 HAS a better integration of the two worlds (Tablet and Desktop), blurs the line between classic applications and apps a lot and actually added a few nice DESKTOP features to the mix. But it runs classic desktop software just fine and most of the time even a tad faster than Win7.

      Win10 gets interesting when/if Universal Apps start coming out and that depends on W10 hitting the phones. We'll see...

      1. anonymous boring coward Silver badge

        Re: The Purpose of 10

        "Win10 gets interesting when/if Universal Apps start coming out and that depends on W10 hitting the phones."

        So never then. Assuming "hitting" means also getting some uptake.

    5. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: The Purpose of 10

      "If the hardware cannot sell itself, why should the OS sell unwanted stuff?"

      Yes, it became a convention just to upgrade OS with the new hardware, but it seems like that link is broken. PC hardware specs are overkill for most people. It actually makes a case for people to buy premium gear which lasts longer (e.g. ThinkPads or SurfaceBooks instead of Dellapart) and just upgrade the OS. I would rather have one ThinkPad X1 Carbon or SurfaceBook than two Dells over six years. Same price.

  4. Shadow Systems Silver badge

    My next machine will be a desktop.

    I want a main board capable of supporting at least 32GiB of RAM, a quad core CPU that runs at least 3GHz, a dedicated Gigabit LAN port, and enough room for a fat SSD.

    Right now if I want that in a laptop then I'm going to pay through the nose, but if I want that as a desktop then the manufacturers will nearly fall all over themselves to make the sale.

    I can get more bang for my buck through a desktop, can increase the warranty period to greater than a mere year with the money I save versus getting a laptop, and can expect the machine to still be running long after said warranty expires.

    In order to get a laptop that'll last as long I've got to go the Thinkpad route, & Lenovo seems intent on charging a pretty penny for the "honour" of getting my hands on one.

    Screw that.

    I want something with specs that will maul whatever I throw at it, Gigabit LAN so I can connect to the network without paying for a dongle to replace a function they've eliminated under the guise of "thin & light", and don't want to pay an arm, leg, tentacle, nor First Bourn Child to acquire.

    Is it _really_ so difficult to understand that I want a machine that Just Works, lets me Get Shit Done, & doesn't get in the way?

    Because I'll be buying said desktop as one *WITHOUT* any Windows on it Thankyouverymuch, I'll purchase it through one of the vendors that will put some form of *Nix on it, configure it so it Works Out Of The Box, & doesn't piss me off like my current Windows machine.

    I don't want to spend the first part of my morning (each & every bloody morning) checking Windows Update for the latest disguised scumware-cum-security-patch, I don't want to waste my time on an OS that keeps thinking it can do whatever the hell it likes with MY computer, and I want a machine that doesn't phone home every time I blink or (not) look at it funny.

    So those analysts may have gotten something right for a change: desktops might decline because Win10 runs on older hardware, but I no longer care.

    I'll still buy a desktop, it just won't come with Windows on it.

    1. Paul Crawford Silver badge

      Re: My next machine will be a desktop.

      But more, much more than that, you can have a screen that is better that "HD", or the sub-HD pish the push for most laptops under £500 or so, and more like the resolution a good CRTs could manage around y2k

      1. Boothy

        Re: My next machine will be a desktop.

        @PC

        I can confirm that Mint looks quite good in 3440 x 1440 :-D

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: My next machine will be a desktop.

      >> but I no longer care.

      Neither do we. Why did you think we would?

    3. Voyna i Mor Silver badge

      Re: My next machine will be a desktop.

      I want something that will work with Oculus Rift. Currently it looks like anything that does the job well won't be a sensible price till the end of this year. It certainly won't be a laptop, even one with an external GPU.

      This could be the next PC war, but it is unlikely to be very high volume. Office workers in headsets blundering round and bumping into one another while trying to sit on chairs that aren't there might be amusing, but not practical exactly.

      1. TechnicalBen Silver badge

        Re: My next machine will be a desktop.

        A laptop with an external GPU is like buying a mini and towing a 4x4 behind it.

        Or buying a sports car, and pulling an articulated lorry.

        PC with a proper GPU, is like a racing truck! :D

    4. BobChip
      Happy

      Re: My next machine will be a desktop.

      "I don't want to spend the first part of my morning (each & every bloody morning) checking Windows Update for the latest (etc) ....."

      Have you actually tried Linux yet? You will be in for a shock! I have just installed, as I write this post, the latest 3 item update to my Mint desktop. It was completed from start to finish in less than 3 minutes, on a 10 Mb line, from me entering my system password to the "Your system is up to date " message. No stopping what I am doing, no nag screens, no interminable tick boxes, no reboot required.

      Why does ANYONE still use Microsoft?

      P.S. Linux runs much better on "obsolete" hardware than Windows ever did. "Obsolete" is a term I now reserve purely for Microsoft.

      1. KeithR

        Re: My next machine will be a desktop.

        "I have just installed, as I write this post, the latest 3 item update to my Mint desktop. It was completed from start to finish in less than 3 minutes, on a 10 Mb line, from me entering my system password to the "Your system is up to date " message. No stopping what I am doing, no nag screens, no interminable tick boxes, no reboot required."

        Strange - looks precisely like my Windows (8.1) experience...

        "Why does ANYONE still use Microsoft?"

        See above...

      2. mmeier

        Re: My next machine will be a desktop.

        Because the Penguin has

        + No/beta level support for Wacom/Ntrig digitizers

        + No real equivalent to Lightroom (Nope, Darktable does NOT

        + No real equivalent to Photoshop or even Photoshop elements

        + No equivalent to the full OneNote (or even MS Journal)

        ....

        1. Dwarf Silver badge

          Re: My next machine will be a desktop.

          @mmeister

          And of course every one of those items are common on all PC's

          1. mmeier

            Re: My next machine will be a desktop.

            I do not care about ALL PC. All I do care are MY units and MY needs (Unless payed for that I care about other peoples PC as well)

            And for ME - those items are enough to drown the penguin on desktop/mobile units (including phones). Servers get SOLARIS anyway...

    5. illiad

      Re: My next machine will be a desktop.

      If you want a good **powerful** desktop, DO NOT go thinkpad, lenovo, or ANY 'ready made' PC..... those are made to a price, NOT a spec..

      It is VERY simple to 'make your own' PC.. some web companies will even build it FOR you, to parts you have selected from their website!!

      overclockers.co.uk got me a 3Ghz I5 with all the extras for half the price of most shop bought ones!! :)

    6. KeithR

      Re: My next machine will be a desktop.

      "I'll still buy a desktop, it just won't come with Windows on it."

      Then you won't get:

      "a machine that Just Works, lets me Get Shit Done, & doesn't get in the way"

      Choose Linux, choose an OS as your new hobby...

      1. PaulFrederick

        Re: My next machine will be a desktop.

        An OS as your new hobby? What are you doing with Linux that it is consuming so much time you could consider it a hobby? I run Linux and I just sit down and use my PC for whatever I want to use it for. Other than that it gives me no issues to deal with. It just does what it does.

  5. James 51 Silver badge
    Linux

    Somehow the Win10 autoinstall or nagware managed to kill my Win7 desktop (guessing it was that as when I try to recover the installation I get a you're running a newer version of Windows error and refuses to budge). Have been booting into my Linux drive and have been meaning to getting round to fixing it. That was over two months ago and aside from a few games, I don't really miss it.

  6. Gordon861

    Improve PC Specs

    Perhaps if they want us to buy newer PCs then they should release new CPUs that are actually worth buying. A lot of the games available now are still playable on 5 year old CPUs, they need newer GPUs but so do the newer PCs so why bother upgrading.

    Still running an i5-2500k at home and it does everything I need. Since this came out Intel have gone from 32nm to 14nm but the actual speed has gone up 200mhz, no increase in cores etc either.

    Unless the PC goes BANG I can stay with what I have and be happy.

    1. Paul Crawford Silver badge

      Re: Improve PC Specs

      Or maybe some laptops with better displays for other than DVD watching, you know like Google pixel, etc?

      1. Gordon861

        Re: Improve PC Specs

        Yes, why do laptops have such crap display resolutions when a basic smartphone comes with a 1080P screen?

        1. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge

          Re: Improve PC Specs

          IMHO, the average PC Punter (who shops at places like PC-World) does not want to spend more money on a Laptop than they do on a phone. This the cheapo end of the laptop ranges is built down to a spec that is as low as possible and yet give the supply chain at least a modicum of profit.

          1366x768 laptop should be consigned to history. Sadly this won't happen.

      2. Sloppy Crapmonster

        Re: Improve PC Specs

        Can a chromebook play a DVD? I've got a few around, and the requisite USB-attached DVD drive, I've just never had the need to try. Maybe I will.

    2. Boothy

      Re: Improve PC Specs

      Quote: "Still running an i5-2500k at home and it does everything I need. Since this came out Intel have gone from 32nm to 14nm but the actual speed has gone up 200mhz, no increase in cores etc either.

      Yup, this ^^^

      My last major Desktop PC update (triggers broom style) was in early 2013.

      New MB, CPU and Memory, everything else (HDD, GFX, case etc) was a carry over.

      At the time I fitted an i7 3770K, stock speed is 3.5 GHz.

      About a year later I fitted a liquid cooler (Corsair Hydro H60), and the CPU has hummed along at ~4.3GHz since, without issue.

      The latest Skylake 6700k (14nm), has a stock speed of 4.0 GHz.

      So 500Hz more than a stock 3770K, but 300Hz less than mine is currently running at. So I'd have to OC the 6700k to even match my current 3 year old system*

      So an update just isn't really worth it.

      * Yes I'm aware there are other benefits to the newer CPUs, but it's just not worth the time, effort or money to upgrade from the 3770K currently, and it's rare the CPU is ever the bottleneck.

      1. bombastic bob Silver badge

        Re: Improve PC Specs

        well, the effect of Moore's Law *broke* a while back, then in response, Microsoft release windows 8. the rest has been a *BAD* *JOKE* about how nobody perceives NEW machines as being "that much faster", _ESPECIALLY_ if a *GARBAGE* OS that consumes MORE resources and RUNS SLOWER [because of "the METRO", and all of those 'background things' MS decided to add, even MORE in Win-10-nic than in 'Ape' (8)], the "faster CPU" isn't helping enough to counter Microsoft's new levels of INEFFICIENCY embedded in the OS.

        So the new computers don't SEEM to run 'faster' to most people, and an APE or Win-10-nic interface is CERTAINLY not BETTER [nor "modern"].

        result: NO SALE

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Improve PC Specs

          @ bombastic bob

          You are aware that ever since the debacle that was Vista. MS have put a lot of effort into code optimisation, for both speed and memory utilisation? There are many benchmarks out there that demonstrate this.

          PS: I'm still on Win 7, as I like the OS, but I'm also aware that sticking 10 (or even 8.1) on the same machine would improve the speed, but not the user experience.

          1. TechnicalBen Silver badge
            Facepalm

            Re: Improve PC Specs

            While true that "Windows 10 is faster" to some degree, the upgrade debarkle did give an opportunity to see a real result... as in a failed effort to install 10 while their servers were down, the new build with Windows 7 booted* in 1 second flat.

            So, if 10 "has the fastest boot time" is faster, I doubt it even matters.

            *And as it's Windows 7 that was a cold, real boot. Not a pretend "we will turn off the monitor to pretend it shut down quickly, then suspend to disk and reload a bootstrap with a password screen to cover up our tricks that" 10 does.

            1. pmartin66

              Re: Improve PC Specs

              Doing a FULL COLD BOOT in Windows 10 (I don't allow non full boots to my main box) it boots in under 8 seconds flat allowing me to log in and start work, just like that.

          2. banalyzer

            Re: Improve PC Specs

            With you there AC, and I don't even use MS products. From what I have seen Win8 and 10 do work smoother than 7, but the GUI, oh hell that GUI.

          3. pmartin66

            Re: Improve PC Specs

            Not in my experience. The UX is very much better. Everyone I have upgraded LOVES Windows 10. They have zero problems with apps or the desktop too. Super fast boot times, super stable and fast, I would ditch Win7 in a heartbeat... wait, I already did.

        2. Mikel

          Re: Improve PC Specs

          A big win for AMD: the market seems to have sussed out that the end of Intel's process advantage and pace of progress control means AMD is back in the race. AMD stock is up 46% in the last month.

          1. PaulFrederick

            Re: Improve PC Specs

            AMD shares are up 46% you say? Are they trading over a dollar a share yet?

        3. DougS Silver badge

          Moore's Law did not "break"

          Only those who misunderstand what it means and think it meant "CPUs get twice as fast every couple years". What Moore actually said that was that the density of transistors would double every couple years (originally it was 18 months, but he adjusted it in the 70s)

          For quite a while doubling the number of transistors, made possible by shrinking transistor dimensions, allowed a combination of faster clock rates and more complex CPUs that did significantly increase CPU performance every couple years (not quite doubling, but a big jump) The problem is that as they did this the power demand for CPUs kept increasing, and they reached the point where people didn't want noisy fans and energy wasting PCs. For most people, current performance (hell, decade ago performance) is "good enough" for their needs, and it isn't worth it for Intel to design new cores that suck down 500 watts with exotic water cooling solutions for the small segment of people who might be interested in them.

          Now Moore's Law is used to increase density in ways that reduce power usage (i.e. larger low power transistors, gating, etc.) or increase cores/cache since added complexity wastes too much power and has hit a point of diminishing returns as well.

          Would you really buy a new PC just because one came out that was twice as fast? If so, you're in a single digit minority. Most people don't have any need for a faster CPU - and anyway would realize FAR bigger performance gains by switching from a PC using a hard drive to one with a SSD. Many of those who do want a "twice as fast" PC are gamers, but consoles have sucked a lot of the life out of PC gaming since many titles are designed to run on both consoles and PCs, so couldn't make much use of additional performance anyway. So their desire for faster PCs is often based on hopefulness that faster PCs would mean cooler games designed for them, when in reality most games would still be designed with a console's limitations in mind.

        4. veti Silver badge

          Re: Improve PC Specs

          @bombastic bob: I use Windows 7 at work, and 8.1 at home, and I'm here to tell you my home machine runs much faster than my similarly-platformed work one. It boots from cold in less than 20 seconds, launches programs quicker, is generally more responsive, well supported and stable. Admittedly that may have a lot to do with the admin/spyware on my work machine, but the boot time in particular is a tiny fraction of what it was.

          Windows 8.1 is a very nice OS, and it's a shame it got tarred with the generic hate directed at 8.0 (which I never tried).

          1. kb
            Facepalm

            Re: Improve PC Specs

            Uhhhh...that is because Win 8/8.1 does NOT do a real boot, it only does a suspend to disk. If you install a new driver or do any other update that requires a real fresh boot? You'll see the Win 8 "fast boot" is fast BS.

            If you want to do the same "speed trick" in Win 7 simply enable hybrid sleep and use it, you'll find it "magically" becomes just as fast as Win 8.

            1. Danny 14 Silver badge

              Re: Improve PC Specs

              we use windows 7 here at work too. From cold (not hibernate) they get to the CTRL-ALT-DEL in 20 seconds - this varies as there are usually updates to install on boot (WSUS downloads at 4pm and install on first boot, WOL powers them up at 8.20). CTRL-ALT-DEL to desktop is about 20 seconds depending on the machine again as some install up to 5 printers (the art department) whereas some only install 1 printer (each printer takes about 5 seconds each and is the main drag on loading profiles.

              Profiles are roaming and about 30Mb each (main folders are redirected obviously, 30Mb covers the general settings per user). Machines are 3GHz core 2 duo on SSDs.

              1. Whistlerspa

                Re: Improve PC Specs

                They took minutes at the college I attended last year on Windows 7. I think boot times relate to configuration settings such as group policies. Once converted to Windows 10 the boot times were faster.

        5. mmeier

          Re: Improve PC Specs

          Strange, my version of W8 and W10 consume LESS hard drive space, LESS memory and run slightly faster OOB because the shitty Aero is gone (Granted, I killed that Aero crap within 5 min of getting a W7 box). Are you sure you are not running an X-Windows Manager that LOOKS like W8?

    3. e_is_real_i_isnt

      Re: Improve PC Specs

      Unless someone got to it - AFAIK the new CPUs will have instructions that require Win 10+ and won't run without it. Think of it as Intel's insurance policy against being left behind. So don't think of moving your Win 7 to the new CPU.

      1. Richard Plinston Silver badge

        Re: Improve PC Specs

        > AFAIK the new CPUs will have instructions that require Win 10+ and won't run without it.

        You are confused, but that may be because MS deliberately made you so. What is actually true is that the new CPUs will have extra instructions. Win10+ will use those extra instructions, but older Windows (or other OS) will run on the CPU without using the extra instructions.

        The statement 'Windows 7, 8 won't support the new CPUs', means it won't support the new features, not that it won't run.

        Intel would be insane to make incompatible CPUs that won't run as normal x86-64.

  7. Bloakey1

    Hmmm, but I thought ...

    I have seen comments from Microsoft that indicate Windows 10 will actually work faster than the other Os' from MIcrosft and will therfore invigorate an older PC.

    No I would say that this fact alone, if it is true, means PC makers are in even deeper s**t than before.

    1. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

      Re: Hmmm, but I thought ...

      I have seen comments from Microsoft that indicate Windows 10 will actually work faster than the other Os' from MIcrosft and will therfore invigorate an older PC.

      Pewrhaps because W10 sends all your data into "the cloud" where it can be pilfer^H^H^H^H^H^Hprocessed faster?

    2. Doctor_Wibble

      Re: Hmmm, but I thought ...

      I've seen remarks to that effect as well but I am left with the question of whether it is actually working faster under W10 or if this is the benefit of a registry cleanout and driver clearup etc (assuming an upgrade) or if it just seems faster the way these always do after a clean OS (re)install?

      1. Danny 14 Silver badge

        Re: Hmmm, but I thought ...

        Indeed, just look at windows\installer and windows\winsxs to see how bloated your installation has become. I know the winsxs is a collection of symlinks so isn't a true space hog but the installer folder is a space hog of "previous installers for compatability" (much the same way windows 98 had .dlls for everything you ever installed).

    3. mmeier

      Re: Hmmm, but I thought ...

      It has a smaller size on the harddrive than W7 (but so did W8) and has a slightly smaller memory footprint since it ditched a driver model and some "old stuff" support.

      That overall makes it run a bit faster on older boxes with 2-4 GB of main memory (Net/Notebooks, some tablet pc)

  8. ColonelClaw

    That screenshot of the Win10 desktop got me thinking - I wonder what percentage of all Win10 users use the search box, and how regularly? I have no idea, but it sure is taking up an awful lot of useful real estate.

    With all the metrics and other stuff Win10 gathers and phones home, you can bet MS know the exact answer to my question, but I'm not holding my breath for them to publish it. This is a real shame; it would be really interesting to see how Windows is interfaced with on a global level. It may even explain why the Windows interface is seemingly designed with an idiot in mind.

    1. YARR

      If you need the screen real estate, there's an option to shrink the search box to an icon which opens Cortana above the task bar, or you can remove it.

  9. Chika
    Facepalm

    To be honest, it's a subject that I've been getting heartily sick of. We all know where we stand as far as W10 is concerned and articles like this seem a little too much like gloating over Microsoft's failings just as other articles pushing the increasing numbers of installs seem a little too much like Microsoft and its shills either trumpeting their success, trying to keep the naysayers at bay or, at the very least, attempting damage control.

    My combination of openSUSE Linux, Windows 7 and a Raspberry Pi running RISC OS will do me just fine, thanks. Now can't we just give it a rest?

    1. bombastic bob Silver badge

      give WHAT a rest?

      "it's a subject that I've been getting heartily sick of. We all know where we stand as far as W10 is concerned and articles like this seem a little too much like gloating over Microsoft's failings just as other articles pushing the increasing numbers of installs seem a little too much like Microsoft and its shills either trumpeting their success, trying to keep the naysayers at bay or, at the very least, attempting damage control."

      "Now can't we just give it a rest?"

      only when Microsoft and others *FINALLY* grow a brain, get a clue, and release an OS that reverses this ridiculous trend. Until then, it'll get the *NEGATIVE* attention it deserves. And MS will continue to try to save their own backsides, naturally. and you can't just let them get away with it. But I don't see MS releasing a 'Windows 11' that un-does the damage. And here we are...

      1. Chika
        Mushroom

        Re: give WHAT a rest?

        only when Microsoft and others *FINALLY* grow a brain, get a clue, and release an OS that reverses this ridiculous trend.

        It won't happen. Historically, Microsoft only "get a clue" after the disaster has already happened. It was years after the event that they apologised for WME and I've yet to hear a reasonable apology for Vista, let alone W8.x. Microsoft never likes to admit their mistakes, preferring instead for them to fade away on their own, like Zune or Bob.

        The only difference here is that Windows is a core business. It's quite obvious that it's a business that could end up doing the same thing as Novell Netware so they want to generate new business. That would be fine if they hadn't fired so many of their talented staff and pushed so hard on the whole "let's take over the touch screen universe because we're Microsoft" thing. They were hard up enough for originality back in the days when W7 was being put together but at least we ended up with a reasonably usable product.

        Until then, it'll get the *NEGATIVE* attention it deserves. And MS will continue to try to save their own backsides, naturally. and you can't just let them get away with it. But I don't see MS releasing a 'Windows 11' that un-does the damage. And here we are...

        Yes, here we are. However just harping on about it isn't really negative. We know that Microsoft have seriously mishandled the roll out of W10 and have gained a lot of negative press about it.

        We know that W10's "free" offer isn't really free, and that users are being used as free beta testing labour.

        We know that W10 is a data slurper on a par with such systems as Android despite Microsoft criticising Google publicly for that very thing in past times.

        We know that W10, in it's default "recommended" form can seriously damage your data cap balance.

        We know all that, and we know that even if you disable all of that as far as possible, it provides nothing better than W8.1 with Classic Shell added, and neither really provides any real discernible improvement over W7 unless you are looking for specifics (or you are one of those rare smartphone or tablet users with W8 on it).

        But all of this is just repeating stuff that we have known for much of the time since W10 was released. There's nothing new there, and that's the biggest reason why I get sick of it. I get sick of having to research every single patch my W7 machines are told they should be downloading because Microsoft insist on slipping new nagware and other nasties in (the latest IE11 thing being a good example). I know that some people will be out there downgrading to W10 because they know no better, but who am I to judge them?

        In the end, I tend to prefer to let W10 die in the way that Microsoft prefers - a long, slow, painful drift into obscurity. It won't die any other way, and continuing to complain about it just keeps it in the public eye where it certainly doesn't deserve to be. So there you have it.

        1. KeithR

          Re: give WHAT a rest?

          You're making far too much sense there, Chika...

        2. Pookietoo

          Re: doing the same thing as Novell Netware

          You mean running faultlessly for years, without so much as a reboot?

  10. Greg D

    Underplaying the responsibility of the hardware vendors

    These guys need to pull their socks up. Can't just blame Microsoft squarely for any of it. Yeah their recent OS's suck - 10 is ok when you turn all the spying shit off. 8/8.1 was another Vista.

    However, the manufacturers packaging this stuff are 80% responsible for their own downfall. They have relied FAR too long on repackaging the same old shit over and over again, and ensuring Apple take the crown for form, design and aesthetics each time, which is bizarre when you understand the stuff underneath the hood is the same.

    Case in point: ALL laptop screens up until very recently were 1366x768. It looks shit, make the CPU/RAM etc as beefy as you want. If you package it in a plastic cover and stick one of those shitty LCD panels in it, no one is going to fucking buy it.

    Try to provide something unique to your brand, hell even a simple skin on the OS would do something to differentiate. The way I see it, there are so many hardware people touting the same thing in a slightly different shaped box.

    Give the punters some better screen options, some choice in CPU (i.e. AMD as well as Intel), give us some dedicated graphics options for gaming performance, slick looking cases with a bit of design forethought. ANYTHING to make you stand out.

    Although that said I will always custom build my rigs. Have done for over 15 years.

    1. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge

      Re: Underplaying the responsibility of the hardware vendors

      Re 1366x768 screens

      Punters will buy Laptops if they are presented with nothing else (As the salesdroid carefully guides them away from the MacBooks). Just go into just about any PC-World/Carphone/Dixons on a Saturday and you can see this in action.

      My Dell Inspiron circa 2003 had a 1600x1200 screen. What progress has been made in the past 13 years?

    2. KeithR

      Re: Underplaying the responsibility of the hardware vendors

      "8/8.1 was another Vista."

      Oh, Bollocks. 8.1 is an excellent OS.

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    There was a time when my desktop, and those of my "clients", had a replacement motherboard about every couple of years. Occasionally the case/PSU had to be changed too. They gave significant improvements in performance.

    O/S changes were treated more circumspectly as they were likely to be incompatible with existing peripherals or applications. The rule of thumb was to wait for version 3 or SP2.

    The current PC is running W7 64bit on an i7-870 with 16GB. It's hard to see how to take advantage of the four processors - even the most cpu intensive application only uses one and a bit.

    The upside is that there is lots of money in my savings account to buy something with a new processor/memory that would hopefully be much faster. I was waiting for W10 to settle down - but the nagware etc has put the kibosh on that route. I'm wasting too much time trying to keep my W7 clean.

    The laptops for browsing etc will go to Linux Mint if W7 gets stuffed by the W10 nagware. The desktop big application will need a lot of work to port it to Linux - but it could be an interesting project.

    1. Pookietoo

      Re: big application will need a lot of work to port it to Linux

      Run Win7 in a VM on Linux, that will give your CPU more to do and provide easy rollback if MSFT slips in any sly updates.

  12. Erik4872

    PCs aren't dead in their niche

    Traditional PC makers are in a bad spot. Most people are fine with tablets and phones for content consumption now, and PCs are lasting longer and longer these days because there's just so much processing power and speed with SSDs, etc.

    That doesn't mean there is not a strong market for PCs within their segment. If manufacturers would stop focusing on trying to wring out margin on $300 garbage consumer PCs sold at Best Buy, they'd find there's money to be made at the high end. I'm personally considering replacing my home workstation after a long stretch, and I'm certainly willing to spend money on quality systems. Lenovo makes a nice line of workstations, along with capable midrange corporate PCs, but they also make a line of consumer junk.

    These manufacturers would be fine if they abandoned the consumer market and aimed a little higher.

  13. Detective Emil
    Meh

    Maybe Win 10 did help PC sales

    In a similar way to Why didn't quantitative easing produce huge inflation?, maybe if there had been no Win 10, PC sales would really have fallen through the floor. Who can say? But Canute may be a better analogy.

  14. Comunicate Manifest

    Privacy Issue

    Microsoft should fix the privacy issue without sulking or attempting to punish its customers:

    1. Delineate the operating system from online services in the EULA, making it possible to employ Windows 10 with out a forfeiture of the right to privacy.

    2. Provide a switch to "one stop" turn off the data sharing with servers, for everything but security patches in Windows 10, and for everything in Windows 10 Pro. Make it so that once sharing is switched OFF, users can then go back and manually set individual items to share should they want to restore specific online services.

    3. Microsoft needs to make non-security patches for the OS and drivers OPTIONAL.

    4. Make sure to inform the public widely, so that the public's confidence in Windows 10 is restored. As it is, every man (made male and female) and her/his dog thinks of Windows 10 as probable spyware.

    1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: Privacy Issue

      'Provide a switch to "one stop" turn off the data sharing with servers'

      Don't bother with a switch. Just strip the whole lot out.

    2. NotMyRealName

      Re: Privacy Issue

      Any OS, let's face it, is just a tool. I've been a Windows user since 3.1 and none of the Windows OSs have ever provided the full functionality that, at any given stage, was technically feasible. Fortunately, those failings were quickly addressed by developers of third-party utilities. Hence, I've relied on a slew of third-party apps to make the wretched 'tool' user-friendly. (That does have drawbacks: I've used Total Commander since it was called Windows Commander, so never became au fait with the incarnations of Explorer.) Right now, my 5-year-old system does everything that I need -- but it is going to die one day. And then what? I dread that day.

      Windows 10 will not be an option: I must be in full control of my computer (data privacy and all that). I'll have to find another OS, learn what it can and does not do, and then find third-party apps to provide the required functionality. And do all that without disrupting my part-time freelance work because, if a deadline is missed, that client is lost for ever. Although I've been half-heartedly playing with flavours of Linux, the time has come when I really must apply myself to preempting doomsday.

      However, I don't think I can be the only person facing this dilemma. There must be other folk who do part-time freelance work and thus need to ensure client privacy/security, and are wondering which OS to turn to next?

  15. BasicChimpTheory

    "Very few if any ever thought Windows 10 would truly reinvigorate the PC industry, and they were right"

    Given that "they" in the quote above are the "very few", I guess they will be reveling in sweet vindication of a robust PC sales environment tonight.

    Hurrah!

  16. Eeeek

    Maybe if ...

    Maybe if Microsoft didn't drastically change the user interface from the way it looks in Windows 7 so that the people who don't like change were willing to give it a try (like my mother and brother), then they would see more uptake with that group of people.

    Maybe if Microsoft hadn't turned Windows 10 into the biggest piece of corporate spyware yet seen, the corporations would be more willing to consider it.

    Maybe if Microsoft hadn't turned Windows 10 into the biggest piece of personal privacy invading spyware yet seen from a major corporation, the security minded techs would consider using it (at lest the ones that aren't already using some sort of UNIX/LInux as a desktop).

    Maybe if Microsoft stopped trying to block people from doing what they want to do with thier own computers, even when that might not be a mainstream activity, there might be more of an uptake from small development shops.

    Maybe if Microsoft wasn't trying to force all software developers into the Microsoft Store, the larger developers would be more willing to consider Windows 10.

    Need I go on?

    1. Comunicate Manifest

      Re: Maybe if ...

      No, you do not need to go on. Here I actually like the way Windows 10 looks, and if I didn't there's always Stardock's Start10 which looks beautiful on Windows 10. As for your other points: Microsoft should beware, pride and arrogance before a fall.

    2. bombastic bob Silver badge

      Re: Maybe if ...

      "Need I go on?"

      sure, keep going. you've *NAILED IT* pretty well, so far.

      can I give you multiple up-arrows?

    3. Pookietoo

      Re: Maybe if Microsoft didn't drastically change the user interface

      But they had to do that, to set MSFT up as a big player in the mobile market. That sure worked out well.

  17. Downside

    AMAZING VALUE

    Picked up a Tosh 15" laptop for £125 from Staples, perfect for acting as a presentation workhorse. Windows 10 runs lovely on it and it's only a few quid more than a Hudl !!.

    Well chuffed. Cheap as.

    Sure, not going to be playing the latest game on it or run Handbrake anytime soon, but as bread-and-butter iron to replace an aging laptop, it fits the bill nicely. Sure, only has 15Gb spare after dumping Office on it, but a fat stick or sd card and/or cloud storage and I'm laughing.

    Still can't quite understand that price point... it's bonkers.

    1. Adam Jarvis

      Re: AMAZING VALUE

      Make sure you download all the drivers for your laptop from Toshiba's Support Page, they might not be visible in a years time, when they completely pull out of the PC Market - hence the reason its cheap. If Lexmark Printer support, is anything to go by, I'll pass on a cheap Toshiba.

      You only have to look who was first to make Win10 drivers easily available for older machines: Lenovo.

      HP's support website just got even worst at obfuscating non-existent Win10 drivers for things like fingerprint readers, 3D Hard drive protection etc, by re-dating some Vista/Win7 drivers as released in 2015-2016 (yet its same old non-compatible driver).

      The whole HP Win10 driver support website is just designed to send you round in circles till you get fed up and click the link to buy a new machine.

  18. Anonymous Coward
    Windows

    Microsoft's major mistake is a simple one...

    For the record: even though I'm a vivid and enthusiastic Unix administrator (quite the passionate one at that) I also appreciate and value all the things which you can do in Windows. Although the target audience maybe the illiterate end user there's also a lot of stuff going on underneath the GUI and there's plenty of tinkering and discovering to do.

    Please note that I'm not claiming that Windows is without any flaws or issues. But I do think some people don't give it the credit which it deserves. There's a very solid infrastructure underneath (MMC anyone?) and there's plenty of stuff which you can do on the commandline. Starting/stopping a Windows service? No, I don't use services.exe or services.msc for that. I more than often use sc.exe instead (just start it, you'll see what I mean).

    But what Microsoft needs to really get into its thick skull is that this isn't the 80's anymore. The market is no longer something you can dictate by throwing (sometimes): horrid stuff at it and expecting people to buy i(n)t(o) anyway because they don't have a choice. Thanks to the power of the Internet; the power of social media and the massive share of knowledge people do have a choice. Worse yet (worse for the vendors): they now also realize as much, or can easily find out with a few mouse clicks.

    Yet here we are.. It seems to me that the only thing Microsoft has "learned" from the Windows 8 drama is that this freedom of choice is what got their OS the downfall so what is the logical step to take? Apparently not making your choice of option as appealing as possible, but instead trying to take away that choice of freedom.

    Like I mentioned above: this isn't the 80's anymore! I've seen people who were very happy with WIndows 7, even Windows 8, and completely freaked out when Windows 10 happened. Merely because they felt oppressed. They didn't got any choice in the matter, "Big brother" was running their PC and that was a clear sign to them that it was time to try this "Linux thing" and get rid of Windows completely (true story). And the worst part: even though I actually admire Windows and how far Microsoft has come so far I really can't blame those guys. Worse yet: I think they're completely right too.

    I'm pretty sure that there are plenty of manages and beancounters and others who actually have studied all this and they know what's good for Microsoft. Bollocks!

    PowerShell. That was good for Microsoft, because it actually managed to get talked about on Unix fora where even Unix fanboys (you know, the "I hate Windows because... you can't open it") had to admit that PowerShell "wasn't all that bad".

    Mono. That was also good for Microsoft because plenty of players could respect the fact that Microsoft allowed a bunch of fans to hack into their crown jewels (pun intended) and provide .NET on other platforms. Many people enjoy mod-mono (yours truly included) but not only that: got a nice taste of what working with a Microsoft standard was all about.

    But everytime Microsoft has something good they feel the need to enforce other stuff on us. Visual Basic 6 anyone? It's EOL is waay behind us, Microsoft opted and pushed heavily on .NET but a large group of programmers remained who won't let VB die out like that. Because VB can get you places where other languages can't, not that easily anyway. Only now has Microsoft finally realized the obvious and they're actually adding the VB dll's to later versions of Windows so that code can run without the missing DLL messages.

    So yeah. Microsoft's mistake is that they don't try to appeal to the masses. And when something good hits them then it seems they're even too stupid to realize it. Give people what they want, not what you think they need. What people need is getting what they want. And when done right then giving them what they want could even be good for you Microsoft.

    But if you keep this up then I honestly fear for the worst. It would be well deserved, but not something I'd enjoy. Because the less players we have on the IT market the more vulnerable us consumers become to getting even more crap pushed down our throats. Because then we won't have as many choices as we do now.

  19. Sil

    PC makers could reinvigorate sales by actively embedding new technologies that are supported by Windows 10, such as Real3D cameras for Windows Hello, DirectX 12 stack, USB 3.1 type C and more.

    Otherwise, the client, seeing her old Windows 7 PC is entitled to a free upgrade to Windows 10, won't see any reason to upgrade the hardware.

    Where PC makers innovate, e.g. 2-in-1, they generally fare quite well.

    Last but not least, they could ban traditional hard drives from all their configurations and replacing them with SSDs, and making them available only as an option.

  20. Number6

    I have tried Windows 10. While it might appeal to those who've never used a PC before, a mere five minutes of it would be enough to put me off, if it wasn't for the fact that it was in a VM on a Linux box and so I could easily return to sanity. It certainly wouldn't encourage me to buy a new PC - last one I built was almost two years ago and Windows in any form never went near it. I did buy a cheap Dell laptop last year, but the pre-installed Windows 10 on that was wiped without being run when I installed Debian over the top.

  21. Mikel

    IBM beat Toshiba to the exit by a country mile

    Big Blue cashed in during the run-up to Vista. Prescient! Must have used an AI or something.

  22. DougS Silver badge

    Predictions of future PC sales

    Based on the vast overestimates of the PC market from Gartner and IDC over the past five years (they predicted solid growth and totally missed the ~30% decline from the market peak) you should subtract at least 5% from their future estimates. So if they think the market will shrink by 0.5% annually over the next five years, substitute a 5.5% annual decline and you'll probably be closer to the truth.

    PCs sold with Vista or later are perfectly adequate for today for 95% of PC users. If they want more speed, a SSD and more RAM will make it work better than most new ones you'd buy today (many of which are still sold with hard drives, or useless 'hybrid' drives) The main driver for new PC sales today are people who don't know it is possible to upgrade their PC and don't realize they could pay someone to do it for less, and corporates who are depreciating and replacing them on a set schedule.

    A lot of people who only got a PC for email and web access have no need of one now, they do those things on their phone now.

    1. bombastic bob Silver badge

      Re: Predictions of future PC sales

      "PCs sold with Vista or later are perfectly adequate for today for 95% of PC users."

      etc.

      yes, since Moore's Law is no longer making next year's model 30% to 50% "better" than this year's model [with respect to user perception, not multi-core, RAM, or storage].

      user perception is key here. yeah, made this point already, but putting into context with what you've said may make it clearer.

      People are NOT buying new; they're 'upgrading old' (or just plain fixing it). If the OS cannot make the computer "appear faster" to end-users, they stick with what they have, PARTICULARLY if built-in features or the appearance of the "new" OS *IRRITATES* them. Like "Ape" and Win-10-nic.

      Microsoft *FORGOT* what sold windows 3.0 back in the 90's. It was the *EYE* *CANDY*. 3.0 had a 3D skeumorphic appearance. 2.x did NOT [it looked more like "Ape" and Win-10-nic, actually].

      So WHAT makes Microsoft think that going BACK to 2.x's appearance is *MODERN* ???

      Really, they're just angering the customer base, and making people want to KEEP their 7 and even Vista machines.

      So then, what YOU said happens:

      "If they want more speed, a SSD and more RAM will make it work better than most new ones you'd buy today"

      And Microsoft should pay VERY CLOSE ATTENTION as to *WHY*. Or DIE. Their choice.

  23. Big Wiggle

    Why buy a new PC?

    I'm sitting here with a 6 year old PC that has a core i7 CPU, 24GB RAM, and dual SSDs. The memory and storage upgrades have made this system perform better than the day I bought it. It can handle Win10 and multiple apps with little effort.

    I may upgrade to or build a new system this year, but if I'm honest about it, I really don't need to do that yet.

  24. Geezheeztall

    Among the people I know, I haven't encountered anyone upgrading hardware specifically for a newer version of Windows. Most purchased a new machine for better, faster performance, then expected the newest version of Windows because they're purchasing a new machine. At this time, most of my friends have no need to upgrade. Their machines are still more than adequate for everyday use. Free or not, Windows 10 is not a consideration when Windows 7 is in extended support mode until Jan 2020.

  25. ZootCadillac

    Well done. Almost thought El Reg had fallen off the vitriolic hatred windows 10 bashing bandwagon there for a moment. Almost.

  26. Winkypop Silver badge
    Pirate

    A paradox, a paradox, a most ingenious paradox

    Upgrade to Win10 to get a more secure OS

    Upgrade to Win10 to get a less private OS

    Hahahahaha

    1. Adam Jarvis

      Re: A paradox, a paradox, a most ingenious paradox

      Your Personal data was probably leaking anyway at some point since circa 1995, using Windows due Malware/Virus infections.

      Another way of looking at things...

      With 'Express Install' settings, all Microsoft have done with Windows 10 is to make the system of leaking personal data 'Official', with a so called, legitimate business practice/model, tied very loosely into 'opt out' privacy laws.

      Microsoft, in effect, are attempting to secure down those past leaks (using their own Malware equivalent) through their own servers, so they control (and exploit for revenue) your personal data. At the same time, attemping to squash unregulated 'competition' (the Malware industry) from doing the same.

      Its the equivalent of Equifax for your PC habits, rather than financial ones.

      If a consumer is dumb enough to install Windows by clicking 'express settings' , you could argue that their data is probably not worth that much, so you have to wonder why Microsoft are going to such an effort to pi.ss off their core users.

  27. Brent Beach

    If my experience with an upgraded 8.1 to Win 10 and a native Win 10 machine are any guides, people should be avoiding Win 10 in droves.

    Both machines are constantly getting busy with weird internal processes (what is System and Compressed Memory and why is it sucking the life out of my machines?) that shut down keyboard input for 5 seconds, 10 seconds at a time. When you are typing an email and everything shuts down for 5 seconds, that is annoying. In fact, when you are typing and they is a delay of any sort, that is annoying.

    I am typing this on my Win 7 machine, which never seems to not display the character typed immediately. I have a old Win XP netbook with an atom processor that works just as well.

    But my multicore machines running Win 10 suck. If I could move them back to Win 7 I would with no reservations.

    Microsoft has some agenda they are pursuing, it improving the user experience is not a priority for them.

  28. Jakester

    Windows 7 Is Keeping Sales Up

    I do some work for a small business that has 45 desktop computers. Typically, they keep a computer for about 5 years before it gets replaced. Replacement computers right now are still Windows 7 Pro because the critical software they run is not compatible with Windows 10. Windows 8 is not an option.

    For those computers that I project will still be in operation when Windows 7 is no longer supported, I plan to perform a temporary upgrade to Windows 10 before July 29 so that I can upgrade them to Windows 10 when the software they require is finally certified for the new OS.

    If we have to purchase any new computers after Windows 7 is no longer provided, I will have to purchase either refurbished systems that I can still get Windows 7 drivers for (unless Windows 7 is provided). Unfortunately, after July 29, those systems could not be upgraded to WIndows 10 unless a retail license is purchased.

    Apple has been very good about keeping their operating system upgrades compatible with software (at least after the release of OSX) and keeping a consistent look and feel of each release. I find frustrating Microsoft's moving file locations, constant changing of the look and feel of each release, the undocumented removal of features, and changes in output of commands which requires changes in scripts (and adding complexity) to handle parsing of the outputs.

    1. mmeier

      Re: Windows 7 Is Keeping Sales Up

      Actually the "compatibility problem" is far less W10 and far more "idiotic third party software companies". IF one follows proper rules than stuff like changing locations for files will not matter. I have some "fan written" software for games around here that was written in the days of Win2000 and still installs/runs on W10 without a problem since Installer and software follow "da rules". And some commercial XP software that had problems with Vista/W7.

      Same for drivers. The ones that "worked in W7 and now fail" are typically NOT true W7 drivers but made use of MS support for older driver models (Typically 2 versions) for (in that case) XP and just changed the label. Well, in W10 MS finally cut that support of.

  29. ZeiXi

    Old Habits die Hard except When it comes to MS

    Being a pretty involved user of Microsoft since the days of 2.1, 3.1, 95, XP, NT, 2000, Vista right up to 7, I have stopped buying PCs with Windows since my last 4 PCs with Windows 7. Reason? I abhor finding out how to do things I used to do without a moment's thought. If MS had retained the UI of 7 and make it a lot more intuitive, my last eight Mac purchases could easily have been PCs running Windows. Now that Office is 365, I am happy I switched over to Mac.

  30. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Don't worry PC OEMs...

    I'm sure sales will pick up around Christmas time. Keep the faith!

  31. DToma

    Each of my sons has his own computer. My oldest son has Windows 8.1 and my youngest son has Windows 10. My oldest son tried to get the free Windows 10 upgrade; but, it failed either at the download or with the installation.

    My youngest son has been using Windows 10 since he got his computer. He said that Windows 10 is better than Windows 8 or 8.1.

  32. ben_myers

    A no-win for Microsoft

    Microsoft painted itself into a corner by releasing its ill-conceived and bloated Windows 8. So it had to recover some credibility with end-users via its free, albeit imperfect, Windows 10 upgrades. Had it not done so, there might well have been mass defections from Windows to OS X and Linux. Microsoft sweetened the Windows 10 pot by finally finally finally trimming down the bloat and finally finally finally implementing the fast startup that has been technically feasible since XP days. (Windows 10 post-install hard drive footprint after the mandatory updates is around 20GB, instead of the 40-ish GB of 7 or 8.) Microsoft seems to have also crippled the Windows 7 update process so that the 215-or-so important updates take a long long time to install.

    The net result of all this is that people are upgrading computers to Windows 10 that have no business being upgraded. Add to that the fact that the Moore's Law dictum of doubling CPU capacity every two years has slowed down, and you have a perfect recipe for a slowdown in sales of new equipment.

    So computer manufacturers are blaming Microsoft? Well, somebody has to, because Microsoft has always looked out for itself, never considered the best interests of those with whom it deals. Satya, the bloom is off. It has been for years.

  33. Asterix the Gaul

    The purpose of Windows 10...

    That's just part of it,more importantly is Microsoft's business model, which is an Apple Clone.

    Microsoft decided that they want to emulate Apple Store, by having their own 'Store' to push out more of their bloatware onto people's PC's.

    Once they have their O.S on your hardware,followed by their 'Store' apps,you are virtually owned by them,just like Apple.

    This is the 'plan', it's been like that since W8 & I made that observation way back.

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