PCs fading away...
Soon a PC will just be the fat lump in the HDMI cable.
The year after that it'll disappear into the HDMI connector.
Microsoft has announced a cut Windows 10 IoT Core for the Raspberry Pi 3. The new Insider Preview of Windows 10 IoT Core, yours for the downloading here, supports the new Pi. Windows 10 IoT Core is a long way short of full Windows comparable to Windows Embedded rather than efforts like Windows 8.1 with Bing intended to run on …
Yeah, but the thing they invented was HDCP and then just nailed it on top of the existing DVI standard.
DVI can also have HDCP; HDMI can also carry audio, and has a higher bandwidth, even compared to dual link DVI. It's a smaller connector, and the combination of audio+video in one cable makes the rats nest behind my AV amp considerably smaller than in the one that had separate DVI/component/SCART sockets and matching coax/SPDIF/RCA plugs for each input.
Personally, that makes me perfectly happy to pay ~2p per device to the rent seeking scum.
No that would be the racketeers that can afford the patent & trademark process. You know; the ones who pilfer from Artists or steal the technology from the inventor and then hold the individuals at bay using the costly legal system. The organisations that retain full time Legal Council...
Need some examples? I have ample cases to point to. Who invented the Walkman by the way...was it Sony? Was 'Disney's Peter Pan' really a Disney artwork or did it belong to a Childrens Hospital? Speaking of hospitals, how did a US pharmaceutical company Amgen make a fortune using molecular haematology discoveries done by an Australian Public Hospital (Walter and Eliza Hall Institute of Medical Research in Melbourne) without ever paying for the rights? How could they then file a patent under their name when there is no dispute as to who invented it and that Australian tax payers paid the cost to develop it? Need some more?
The PC ought to disappear into the monitor. Except, an RPi is not a PC. (Runs Linux just as well as an old PC, though).
Has anybody attacked the back of an old monitor with a Dremmel to retrofit an RPI with its power supplied by the monitor? Just add keyboard, mouse, and Ethernet cable. RPi3, Ethernet cable optional.
Perhaps some enterprising monitor or TV manufacturer could make up and popularize a free-to-copy "thin PC" connector. Something mechanically chunky like the old SCART connector so no extra mechanical support for the "thin PC" would be needed. Just click one into place. 10 seconds max. Connector for power, and (optionally) USB to ports in the sides or front of the monitor.
Would a back-of-monitor VESA mounting kit for a Pi do instead of DIYing with a Dremel?
That's handy, because there are a selection already available. Search and enjoy.
You'll not get the co-operation of the TV builders in terms of building a standard "smart module" connector, not least because Pi shows that the £100+ premium that TV suppliers (used to?) charge for a poorly performing "Smart TV" was/is a total ripoff.
> The PC ought to disappear into the monitor.
NO! I don't want to have to buy a new monitor because the PC fails, or vv.
> Perhaps some enterprising monitor or TV manufacturer could make up and popularize a free-to-copy "thin PC" connector.
They already do. It is called HDMI (and USB for power). All it requires is the PC in the form of an 'HDMI stick'.
Actually, that's a remarkably retarded idea. Even in this day, little boxes attached to monitors still develop at a much faster pace than monitors. The last 3 or 4 generations of streamers have ALMOST managed to catch up to the features and functionality of 5 year old trailing edge PCs. They still haven't quite managed to displace a PC with a better GPU or better CPU and a lot of dust. Now with streamers, I only have to spend an extra $100 per generation. I also don't have to toss out a perfectly good display.
The iMac approach is horribly wasteful to the point of getting banned like coffee pods.
I believe it is called an AIO (All In One) PC. I think it is an Intel initiative.
And, unlike an iMac, you can - in theory at least - separate the mainboard out of the monitor to upgrade/replace either separately if you are above the no-user-servicable-parts-inside level of proficiency with tech. (And assuminy you can find someone who makes parts for the psudeo-standard!)
> Microsoft's keen to be associated with the Pi mission of teaching computing to kiddies.
A RapberryPi + Raspbian (plus kb, mouse, monitor) is all that is needed to teach computing, robotics, electronics, music and much else.
A RaspberryPi + Windows10 requires a full Windows 10 PC to do anything.
Apart from the budget implications, what does that teach the children?
The computer industry has gone through several phases. First there were mainframes. Then along came mini-computers. When the PDP7 arrived it started others moving to minis. Then there were the micro-computers in the mid-70s. These were mainly hobbiest and games machines until the Apple II became popular in businesses and the IBM PC was introduced to compete against this. IBM made their PC to be a terminal add-on to its mainframes but it soon broke free of that .
The RaspberryPi is the most known of the new small SBC computers. These are powerful enough to replace the PC as a desktop for simple usage and also cheap enough (especially the Zero) to be IoT or robotics or maker for hobbiests or manufacturers.
Microsoft is trying to tie the RPi into their Desktop and Azure systems just as IBM (briefly) tried to keep their PC as a mainframe terminal.
^ This. What @Richard said.
Back in the 90s, Apple was marginalised (and boy, were they marginalised!), Atari ST was dead, Amiga was dying and Linux users all had beards and eschewed soap. In the minds of the general public, Microsoft was computers - and a computer without 'Microsoft' was unthinkable.
The world has changed a little since then. It's a UNIX* world, in all its different flavours. Add up the installed base of iOS, Mac OS X, Linux and Android and its Windows that is looking a bit marginalised now.**
Raspberry Pi is part of this trend, although it's installed base is a drop in the ocean (even at 8 million) compared with all the other UNIX systems out there. Windows IoT isn't going to help Microsoft reverse the tide either - if anything, it might push more users into the welcoming arms of Linux. A noob might buy a Pi for a dabble (it happens - it's so cheap that why not?) on the strength of Windows. On discovering that it doesn't really have Windows they might give Raspbian a bash - and discover that it's familiar enough that they don't need Windows anyway. Certainly, that was Mrs. 45RPMs experience.
If Microsoft really wants to join in with the Pi fun then surely the way to go is with Windows RT and a lightweight version of Visual Studio on the Pi. With that, who knows? They might even tempt some users back from Linux***
*I know that Linux isn't UNIX. But it's so UNIXalike that the distinction is irrelevant.
**fanboys, don't blow a sphincter - this isn't a comment on the merits of a particular OS - just a reflection on the current state of play in terms of installed base.
***Probably not many though.
Ahh! OS/2. I had OS/2 for Windows - it came free from somewhere and, when installed on a computer with MS-DOS 5 and Windows 3, replaced it with OS/2. I had to wipe my computer and start again to return to DOS and Windows, which I inevitably had to do when it turned out that some of my more demanding software wouldn't run on 'a better DOS than DOS and a better Windows than Windows'.
They might even tempt some users back from Linux
I booted in to windows the other day, I wanted to update it to Windows 10 before it was no longer free (hey, I might not use it at all, but if I do need to use it, I don't want to have to pay again for the latest version). It did all its update perfectly happy, rebooted and now won't boot back up. Spent two hours trying different "rescue" options, none of them fixed anything, so I gave up and booted linux to play some TF2.
I don't think I can be tempted back now, even though I need to fire up a VM to book holiday (*20* different ActiveX plugins required!) or get my payslips (this is an awesome one, it only works in two versions of IE. I don't know if they are being deliberately ironic or just daft, but ADP have the temerity to call their IE-only portal "myfreedom"...)
Wonder how the license is applied to the Pi
It's strictly non-commercial, by default. There's an entry-level commercialisation option which requires automatic updates to be on (no surprise there*) however if you want any control you'll have to shell out:
If you want control with fewer upgrades, the flexibility to stage and deploy updates when you want, or even the ability to turn off auto-updates then Windows 10 IoT Core Pro is what you need. Contact your Microsoft representative or find a distributor to learn more about licensing Windows 10 IoT Core Pro.
There must be someone who sees that as a positive. Surely.
EDIT: *You also need a Windows Live ID and to accept an agreement (which I haven't read)
"Microsoft is trying to tie the RPi into their Desktop and Azure systems just as IBM (briefly) tried to keep their PC as a mainframe terminal."
And MS don't want cheap and available non-MS based computers in schools. They can't have kids breaking free of the "MS is the one true way" brainwashing taught from such an early age.
Unfortunately for them, Apple and Android have already broken that mould.
You bet, because no other company would entice you to use their operating system and then close you in to their ecosystem for the benefit of making money on the people using their products. Especially not, oh, every single major vendor except Debian? Even Ubuntu sells your data by default.
This argument is so outdated it's ridiculous. All platforms have their strengths and weaknesses. I build FreeBSD if I want un-encumbered, I use windows if I want something to work without fuss. It's good to see Microsoft has been forced to innovate and is starting to match licensing models that can compete with Android. Competition is always good.
"I use windows if I want something to work without fuss."
Really? No fuss?
Like many others, Windows 8/10 aren't appropriate for my needs. So its 7 or nothing, in Microsoft terms.
Have you tried building a Windows 7 system from scratch (legitimate SP1 DVD, legitimate CoA) in maybe the last year or so? There's no fuss-free way of doing it.
In general it doesn't work right (Windows Update just sits and hangs) and no one seems to want to say why, inside or outside MS. The best attempt at new-install Win7 I saw was on a refurbished system (with no CoA!). The system worked in the shop but relied on a stolen corporate key which was quickly rejected once Windows Update got up a good head of steam.
My research indicates that one factor that breaks it is that some certificates in the chain of trust needed for the update process have expired, and until you update them at the client end (using Windows Update), then Windows Update refuses to work.
It might be - but actually I wouldn't mind being able to throw a Win10 SD card into a Pi3.
I'm sure there will be "windows only" things that my kids come home from school with, so having an easy "pop this SD card in, machine will connect to the dirty network, do windows stuff" would be useful.
Of course the work will get sent back as a scanned photo of the work on a wooden table, embedded in a libreoffice document...With a note saying that it really should be possible to do homework on any PC...
>Yep, it's the netbook scenario making a comeback, and look what that did to a very clever idea.
I don't think it was MS that killed the netbook. They weren't great for writing lots of text due to their small keyboards, and their letter-box shaped screens made even browsing web pages tiring work - too much scrolling! These points remain true regardless of what OS they were running.
Netbooks could get you out of a jam, but you wouldn't want to use one for extended periods. For purely consuming content (web pages, video), tablets simply had a better form-factor.
For creating content, you'd want at minimum a bigger keyboard (novelist). Coders and artists would also want a bigger screen and more grunt.
MS practically gave away XP Home to OEMs building netbooks to get Linux off them. That carried on until Windows 7 was updated to work with netbooks and by then everybody (most importantly, shops) expected Windows on their netbook.
Tablets, then, didn't really exist. The EEE PC came out in 2007.
> MS practically gave away XP Home to OEMs building netbooks to get Linux off them. That carried
> on until Windows 7 was updated to work with netbooks and by then everybody (most importantly,
> shops) expected Windows on their netbook.
They didn't 'give it away', they forced manufacturers to install it by threatening to raise prices on their other Windows licences if they didn't.
>Tablets, then, didn't really exist. The EEE PC came out in 2007.
2007? We were discussing what killed netbooks, not what what aborted them!
Whatever, a small letter-box of a screen just wasn't much fun. I saw a fair few netbooks (Linux and XP) in the wild for a few years after their arrival - until tablets and 'thin n light' laptops came on the scene - so I stand by my comment about their small screen being their Achilles' heel.
I don't care how good an OS is, if it is on akward hardware then the whole experience will be lacklustre. At the time we were forgiving of netbooks' shortcomings because of their price - the Reg termed them 'SCCs', Small Cheap Computers. I'm sure some of you can remember a sunny photograph demonstrating this!
I don't think it was MS that killed the netbook.
Then think again.
Microsoft made it a condition of cheap licensing of Windows (especially of "Windows 7 Starter Edition") that all netbooks be limited in various ways (1GB RAM, single-core CPU, 10.2" screen size, etc). 10.2" screens were typically only 1024x600 pixels in resolution, and having to suffer that in order to qualify for a dirt-cheap Windows licence killed the netbook more surely than anything.
My pre-Windows-7 netbook has an 11.6" 1366x768 screen and (despite having a 2008-vintage Atom CPU, that runs like a turd through mud on a cold day, and the almost-unsupported GMA500 chipset) is eminently usable (with Linux, of course).
Not as a desktop-replacement, of course, or even as a main laptop ... but as a "disposable" PC to take on holiday for EMail, a bit of browsing (booking things online, etc) and backing up the digital photos it's brilliant.
"For creating content, you'd want at minimum a bigger keyboard (novelist). Coders and artists would also want a bigger screen and more grunt."
At which point it's no longer a netbook and has morphed into a laptop. I think you are confusing the netbook form factor with your own use case. The netbook form factor has it's uses but yours isn't one of them. That fine by me, even if the netbook isn't for you.
The Netbook was nothing more than just another name for really tiny notebooks. It was just a rehash of earlier models from different manufacturers at different (much larger) price points. I had an earlier Sony that was pretty much the same exact thing as a Netbook except for the price.
Tech just moved on, as tech tends to do. More powerful low profile machines became cheaper
The modern answer to the netbook is the MBA and similar PCs that aren't nearly as expensive.
> The Netbook was nothing more than just another name for really tiny notebooks.
They were that later, after Microsoft forced manufacturers to use XP by threatening loss of 'loyalty' discounts.
Originally the netbook was designed to be much cheaper: using 7inch DVD player screens, SD card 'hard disk', no optical drive and Linux; and access the net for most usage. Once MS became involved they needed 10inch screens, hard disks, more CPU power, more RAM and were, just as you say, ruined by becoming just smaller laptops in equipment and price.
"I wouldn't mind being able to throw a Win10 SD card into a Pi3. I'm sure there will be "windows only" things that my kids come home from school with, so having an easy "pop this SD card in, machine will connect to the dirty network, do windows stuff" would be useful."
Last time I looked, the relationship between Win10 (on real PCs) and Win10 IoT (on embedded devices) was similar to that between Windows NT (on real PCs) and Windows CE (on embedded devices).
IE the two flavours of Windows have almost nothing in common except the name and the hype. They don't have the same applications (except in name) and even the data formats may be incompatible without conversion (oh Activesync, how we loved you. Not.).
Has something changed while I've not been looking, or do people still not understand this distinction?
Does Linux have this problem? I think not.
On Linux everything is not called Linux, you get a distribution name.
On Windows 10, everything is Windows 10 even though it's zombified rotting Windows 8.1/Windows Phone 8/Windows CE underneath with a Universal App bolt through the neck. MS wanted to paint some picture of some all-encompassing platform even though there's no ARM Windows 10 for desktops, no ARM Windows 10 for tablets, and no x86 Windows 10 Mobile.
"Last time I looked, the relationship between Win10 (on real PCs) and Win10 IoT (on embedded devices) was similar to that between Windows NT (on real PCs) and Windows CE (on embedded devices)."
Yes - I know that.
My point is that it might not be a bad thing to have another OS available.
Occasionally it's useful to be able to fire up a windows VM - for whatever purpose.
I'd not mind having a Win10 minimal (or whatever they call the low end Win10 desktop) on a spare SD card. Win10IoT seems utterly pointless anyway, RasPi or no RasPi...
Why would anyone want to do it other than saying 'See it works' and then move on to something far, far better.
A bit of 'Me Too' from Microsoft methinks. As it is not proper Windows 10 does it still include all the spyware/teletary/phone home that the real one does?
We really should be told. Then there is the ironic fact that the Windows License costs a lot more than the cost of the hardware. How can MS Justify that one then?
Sorry, I'll pass with this (as I'm passing with anything to do with Windows 8/8.1/10 etc
Because the RPi is aimed at schools. Schools, non-computer teachers and support providers "know" windows.
So instead of having this new scary Linux thing just install W10, use IE to connect to a website showing you a picture of what a science experiment would look like if you ever did one and WOW - you have increased the number of computers in school, taught everyone computer science and are now teaching them chemistry at the same time.
"Schools, non-computer teachers and support providers "know" windows."
Which Windows do they know? 3.1? [95?] 98? [NT4? ME?] XP? [Vista?] Win7? Win 10?
Your claim is patently ridiculous. There's almost as much in common between two randomly chosen versions of Windows as there is in common between a random Windows version and a random Linux variant. Pick one of the various Linuxes targeted specifically at making Windows users comfortable and the "migration" job's a whole lot smaller.
Unless of course you are one of those unlucky members of the Microsoft-dependent community, watching your prospects decline as MS move ever closer to a MS-centric corporate-operated cloud.
That's exactly the point = here teacher have this computer.
You can either use the Linux install that you don't understand but is something complicated to do with hackers, or you can use Windows(TM) along with all this educational support material produced by Microsoft(TM) and their Official Educational Support Unit (TM) in accordance with national curriculum standards.
Is the teacher who falls for this going to go - aha but windows10 IoT preview isn't really the same core API as windows on the desktop, I am being fooled by the Microsoft name linked to a bunch of fake educational material. Or do I just click on the use windows box and get the same IE Window that is shown in the teachers manual.
Repeat for school managers, PTAs, boards of governors, local authorities, dept of education and all the other idiots involved in schools
Of course the teacher that falls for this is going to realize that they have been "sold a bill of goods". This "Windows" won't have the same ecosystem that "regular Windows" does and THAT is the only reason that anyone ever put up with Windows or DOS.
Once you ditch x86, Microsoft's "ecosystem advantage" suddenly becomes it's "ecosystem disadvantage".
"This is not grandpa's Windows" will be a very real problem.
Kindly piss off.
We don't need is a freedom-hating behemoth coming in and ruining it for everyone. Given your past history; I'm actually surprised you are not suing every RPi owner for breaching your patents or some such twaddle.
There is a great number of communities. Loads of small and innovative companies are producing items related to the RPi. This will all be ruined if you curl out one of your typical deuces on it. Everywhere you go, you crush competition with your wallet, dumb things down and stifle innovation.
The RPi is all about education and giving people the freedom to do what they want. We don't need your shit.
"The RPi is all about education and giving people the freedom to do what they want. We don't need your shit."
...but not the freedom to experiment with Windows? To miss the educational experience and learning, good or bad?
I presume you also support removing books you don't like from school libraries.
"but not the freedom to experiment with Windows? To miss the educational experience and learning, good or bad?"
If this was a community driven effort, I wouldn't care but MS has a long history of poisoning the well and attacking freedom. They simply cannot be trusted. There is also no such thing as "Microsoft education", merely indoctrination.
"I presume you also support removing books you don't like from school libraries."
I presume you also support removing books you don't like from school libraries.
Heh, maybe I do, or maybe not:
I don't like creationism, and I am all for vigorous "discriminatory practices" being applied against that kind of brain-rot in general. I also believe that religion and religious ideas shall be made fun off, so, we of course need some reference material around for that.
... Windows is there to be mocked and ridiculed, I guess. But, if it becomes a mandatory part of curriculum due to some misguided application of "fairness" to nut bags and crazies - then - kill it with fire.
fajensen, as long as you don't mind having the piss taken out of you for coming across as a bit of a bigoted arrogant wanker, you aren't far wrong in this instance. Microsoft deserves no quarter to be given, no benefit of the doubt, because of the evidence of their own history. Instead they have to prove their good faith and changed(?) behviour, while putting up with the fact that they have given no one any reason to trust them.
MS - basically an international corporate version of your local heroin dealer. There are no depths to which they will not sink to get their 'customers' [read 'victims'] hooked and coming back for more, forever.
> ...but not the freedom to experiment with Windows? To miss the educational experience and learning, good or bad?
Win10IoT on a Pi does not give 'freedom to experiment'. It _requires_ a full Windows 10 PC to do anything with that Pi.
> the educational experience and learning
The "educational experience and learning" of W10IoT on a Pi (with no other computer around) is looking at the Win10IoT screen telling you what its IP address is - and only that if it connected to a network that has a DHCP server.
A Pi with one of the many actual operating systems can give an actual "educational experience and learning" all by itself.
I tell you: Microsoft is really scared at the thought of millions of schoolkids playing with Pi's running Linux.
It's a bit like the bad old days: Get a schoolkid interested in cigarettes and it will be smoking for life.
Are the latest Pi(s) being made more powerful so they can run Windows? Is Microsoft "helping" the Pi Foundation financially to enable this?
I completely disagree with you on the failure of these computers. They did really well when the curriculum was about teaching programming. The change to MS-DOS came with Windows 3.1 and a change to teaching how to use Microsoft Word and Excel.Ostensibly because these were skills relevant to business, but I suspect because the kids were better programmers than the people trying to teach them.
> and a change to teaching how to use Microsoft Word and Excel.
The change was from learning about and using 'computers' to being a Microsoft consumer. A similar change would have a 'domestic science class' learning how to order MacDonalds.
When BBC computers were being used in schools, and homes, they were used to support science experiments, to connect up equipment and sensors on their user ports, to learn electronics.
See, for example, the 1980s Usborne books:
I don't think they failed miserably.
I used a BBC micro to do my University project and then in my first job for programming EEPROMS and general scientific programming.
They were good tools.
Technology simply moved on and the general "globalisation/consolidation" of all commercial interests took it's toll.
> Acorn and BBC Micro in School? Both failed miserably
Au contraire - most people of my generation (there's a song in there somewhere) learnt about computers courtesy of the BBC Micro. It was either that or queuing up for a very limited time-slot on the school link to the local borough mainframe (via teletype).
MSDOS didn't exist at that point (CP/M was sort of around but cost a fortune). By the time MSDOS was there, the BBC Micro was long dead apart from hobbyist use since (by that time) it was hopelessly outdated and slow.
For the era-challenged, this was in the early 80's. MSDOS didn't come around until the early 90's (I know - I had to herd MSDOS 3.3 - the earliest really usable version).
Au contraire - most people of my generation (there's a song in there somewhere) learnt about computers courtesy of the BBC Micro. It was either that or queuing up for a very limited time-slot on the school link to the local borough mainframe (via teletype).
My memory of the BBC Micro was that it was eye-wateringly expensive and I saw one from a distance once. ZX-81s and then Spectrums were the affordable ones, though many times more expensive than a Pi in chrono-equivalent money.
The reason PCs came to dominate, is because PCs won the workplace office, and once PCs were dominating the office, people wanted the same thing at home so they could be learning the right stuff for their job and the kids could learn stuff for their future. Back then just using a PC was a learning challenge enough for most people.
@Peshman; "Or are you too young to remember the Acorn and BBC Micro in School? Both failed miserably and MSDOS took over the education sector."
WTF?! CrazyCatMan said much of what I'd planned, but I'll say it anyway!
As far as the educational market in the UK was concerned, the BBC Micro was a *huge* success in its day. I know there were other machines in schools, but I feel pretty safe in saying that the BBC Micro was by far the most ubiquitous.
Admittedly it was never as big in the home market (probably too expensive for most people, especially given its mediocrity at gaming) or business, but we were talking about the "education sector".
Yes, MS-DOS PCs eventually took over, but only after the BBC Micro had been successful for the better part of a decade and it (along with all the other 8-bit formats) were quite clearly heading towards the end of their commercial life regardless.
You may as well say that the Mega Drive wasn't successful because the PlayStation took over the gaming sector!
I believe the new pi upgrades were so they could run Windows; I also think Microsoft funded/helped fund the development of the boards (not certain of that - I think I read it on the Pi website), but to be honest I don't mind - I've got two quad core pis (one in house as a web server, another en route to be...well, something, probably a lightweight desktop). If MS's money made that happen quicker then who cares?
That said, we're an MS-only development set up at work and I'm not likely to put Windows on a Pi - I want the ability to switch on a full OS to play with sonic pi or whatever takes my fancy.
The reason for the upgrade from Pi1 to Pi2: The usual increases in speed and decreases in power, size and cost with time in electronics allowed a faster CPU and more RAM in the same size without increasing the cost. As a 'bonus', the instruction set for the new CPU matched the one Microsoft supports, so Microsoft could, with a little effort, trim down version of their OS to fit the memory and speed constraints of a Pi2.
Precisely why Microsoft bothered is not clear to me. I could buy a Windows PC, buy some Microsoft development tools, learn how to use them, create something to run on a Windows Pi, then read through the huge license agreements to see if I can distribute the result, and hope that Microsoft's tools will still be maintained at an reasonable fee in five years time. On the other hand, I can use all the tools I am familiar with for free, have confidence that they will be maintained and free for at least a decade, I can distribute my work without fear that a part of it will only be available from a monopoly at an ever increasing price, and I get a full OS tested on millions of servers, not some cut down thing tested almost once by a pair of Microsoft employees.
The reason for the Pi2 to Pi3 upgrade is precisely the same as last time - newer, better kit was available without increasing the cost. Pi3 supports the same instruction set as Pi2 and a 64bit instruction set. Microsoft's IoT for Pi2 should work with little or no modification on a Pi3.
Microsoft are perfectly welcome to distribute an OS for Pi3, or any other computer they want. The fun thing about a Pi, and many other small cheap computers is that they do not come with bundled storage or operating systems. The buyers get to make their own choices. This is a new experience for Microsoft, and I for one welcome them to the twenty first century and wish them luck catching up.
"I could buy a Windows PC, buy some Microsoft development tools, learn how to use them, create something to run on a Windows Pi, then read through the huge license agreements to see if I can distribute the result, and hope that Microsoft's tools will still be maintained at an reasonable fee in five years time"
Have you tried this lately?
Buying a PC? No problem.
Buying the MS dev tools? No. You rent them, except in certain very limited circumstances.
Licencing? Good place to start, there's a 30+ page brochure (1MB PDF!) on how to licence Studio and what you can and cannot do with it:
"The buyers get to make their own choices."
Now we're talking. But you have to move off MS to make that happen.
And my choice, even where the Certfied Microsoft Dependent IT Department insist on Windows, is usually gcc and Eclipse; maybe clang/llvm one day. But then I mostly (but not exclusively) develop for embedded systems not desktop apps. And that particular IT Department wouldn't know a non-MS application if it hit them on the head.
If MS were clever they'd package Visual Studio Community with a menu option that formats an SD card and puts Windows 10 for the Pi on it then asks you for the Pi's network address (or auto detects it) and finally sets up the required odds and sods in Visual Studio's settings.
They might get there eventually. Until then, Windows 10 on a Pi is way more complicated than it needs to be compared to the Noobs package.
"Until then, Windows 10 on a Pi is way more complicated than it needs to be compared to the Noobs package"
Doesn't seem that complex to manually install, similar to the Noobs install http://ms-iot.github.io/content/en-US/win10/GetStartedManually.htm
And it looks like Win10 will be on Noobs too. with a no registration required install http://ms-iot.github.io/content/en-US/win10/Noobs.htm
"Doesn't seem that complex to manually install, similar to the Noobs install http://ms-iot.github.io/content/en-US/win10/GetStartedManually.htm"
Difference is that with a keyboard/monitor/mouse you can use The non-Windows versions directly on the Pi - that is you don't need a Windows PC in addition !
A/C because you are !
AFAIK, and I know a fair bit, MS have nothing to do with Raspberry Pi Foundation development plans - and if you have heard otherwise, I suggest the source is talking out of their arse.
Their dev plans are much more to do with a) Broadcom coming up with better chips at the same or better price b) Competitors actually producing decent products that they need to keep up with.
MS doesn't even register on the horizon.
And the OS in question is IoT, not desktop, so not exactly going to drag in the children when they have Raspbian to play with (Raspbian has GAMES!)
> Doesn't seem that complex to manually install, similar to the Noobs install http://ms-iot.github.io
Errr..... no. Downloading Noobs doesn't require you to register for something that includes a 13 (yes, thirteen!) page agreement including such gems as....
'you may experience occasional crashes and data loss'
'The Program Services, if installed on a mobile device, may inadvertently damage your device rendering it inoperable.'
'The Program Services may automatically collect and transmit data to Microsoft and its partners regarding activities on your devices, including personal information'
'The Program Services may stop working, be updated, or removed from your device automatically without notice'
'From time to time, Microsoft may change or amend these terms..... You agree to visit the Program Website at least once every 30 days to check for potential notice of changes.'
'By using the Program Services, you agree to receive automatic updates without any additional notice, and permit Microsoft to download and install them for you. You agree to obtain these updates only from Microsoft or Microsoft authorized sources.'
'Limited or no support may be provided for the Program Services.'
'Software is licensed under the terms of this Agreement, but it may also include additional license terms.'
'Some or all of the Software may cease working on its expiration date. You have no right to use the Software after its expiration date.'
'Microsoft reserves the right to terminate your access to any or all of the Program Services at any time, without notice, for any reason whatsoever.'
> And it looks like Win10 will be on Noobs too. with a no registration required install http://ms-iot.github.io/content/en-US/win10/Noobs.htm
And once it is installed it tells you what IP address it has and does _nothing_ else.
Click 'Next' on that page and it tells you that you need a complete full Windows 10 PC (with registration) and guides you through getting the correct version of Win10 and Visual Studio installed and registered. Then you can use that full PC to talk to the Pi and write and download programs to it (UWPs only).
The whole point of the Pi is to get your hands dirty puting together hardware and software to make it work. Then you start modding it to do what you want. By all means try a Win10 installation on a spare SD card but then get back to tinkering .
BTW is ThingerNet or ThingyNet??
so much hatred
even if MS does for once something decent, you just wouldn't trust them.
and what makes you think so?
(ok, so there is common sense and a bit of history. like, almost all of it, sure, but don't lose the big picture because of the gory details)
just try to look at MS without bias -- it is a good company.
great, even. ask their shareholders.
put history to rest, _everyone_ deserves second chance
(or twenty second, there were those updates and new versions).
they are flexible -- remember that web thing? they missed the boat, caught up, boarded it and then pretty much defined the thing. MS is the company that gave us embrace and extend methodology. and now they're embracing IOT and extending it into their own ecosystem.
what is there to be afraid of? what could get wrong?
"even if MS does for once something decent, you just wouldn't trust them.
and what makes you think so?"
More than two decades of history, during much of which I have been a Microsoft user and some of which included being a paying Micrsoft customer.
They've had their second chance, and their third, and more. Too late now.
"MS is the company that gave us embrace and extend methodology. and now they're embracing IOT and extending it into their own ecosystem."
I can't work out whether you're a wind up merchant or not.
The more fitting MS reference, as used by MS themselves, is "embrace, extend, exterminate":
Windows 10 IoT Core is a long way short of full Windows comparable to Windows Embedded rather than efforts like Windows 8.1 with Bing intended to run on very cheap hardware. So don't go getting excited about the chance to cook up a fleet of very cheap Raspberry Pi PC replacements.
But... I already did. I just put Debian on them. Works like a charm. Runs a bunch of kiosk machines in the cafe.
> I recall that Microsoft receive a payment for every Android device sold due to patents.
No, that is not true. Some of the major manufacturers do pay a royalty to MS, mainly those that want to continue selling Windows PCs and laptops and want to protect their 'loyalty discounts' on all products. Some refused to pay and offered to sort out the patents in court. Barnes&Noble did this and the result was that MS 'invested' $350million in B&N (and then wrote it off).
Others don't pay because they don't infringe any patents. The main one being the VFAT 'short name' patent. No SD card, no problem.
I'm gonna skip on the Windows 10 opinion, so much of it having been written.
But, I'm really asking myself why MS spent even a 2 liners' effort for W10 on PI3 ...
The PI being essentially an enthusiast only system (your grandpa, grandma, old grandaunt or whatever captive user that never envisaged others OSes than Windows were even possible in all Universes, is never gonna buy a PI), why is MS even bothering with W10 ?
I can only see 2 reasons: beyond speakable despair to get coverage, or the need to add one more slide to pointy-haired bosses pres about W10.
"remember that web thing? they missed the boat, caught up, boarded it and then pretty much defined the thing."
The way I remember it was they missed the boat, and then used their massive commercial clout to shoulder barge their way back in, ruining standards left right and centre for over a decade. Then, once they'd "won" the web wars and Netscape was open sourced , they stopped development on I.E.
If you define "the web" as a complete basket case which has only recently recovered from Microsoft's meddling, then yes, I suppose you can say it was their doing.
"So is this going to be just like Windows RT? Run it for a few months, realise that few people want it and leave the few poor sods who have adopted it high and dry?"
History says that's highly likely. Ask the users of (and developers for) Windows CE, PocketPC, HPC2000, Windows NT for non-x86, and indeed Windows RT.
if you need/want/works for you then go with Windows 10 IoT, but you will probably be in the minority, kids at school now have the RPi with a free OS that does not need a full blown desktop to program IoT, but if needed you can develop on a RPi3 and deploy to a RPi0 and when they go to Uni their development environment fits in a pencil case. I also get the distinct impression if you turned up to start a computer science degree with a windows machine these days you would be laughed at, it's Linux/BSD all the way in the Comp Sci arena.
"(sorry if i missed that you were being sarcastic)"
I thought the "above all, cash," would be a giveaway given how much money Intel has to burn, especially given their success rate when burning it.
Not to worry, you've clearly got the message anyway.
Raspberry Pi has a great deal going for it in various ways, but there's room for Arduino too (subject to silly trademark malarkey) and BeagleThis and BananaThat and AllWinner Whatever in various corners of the increasingly important non-Windows market.
"Many microcontroller implementations do not need an OS, just need to run the software specifically for the job. Keep it simple - less issues."
Wise words. Not necessarily fashionable, but wise. Someone was trying to convince me the other day that (Intel funded) GE Predix was the way forward for factories and automation and such in the IoT world. Er right. Might suit some subset, but not the panacea being claimed.
"There is competition, just that Intel aren't competitive."
Exactly. Here's the Edison you mention. NB the comments are as valuable as the article:
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