back to article Most of the world still dependent on cash

Most people in the world are still dependent on using cash for making basic payments, meaning that benefits such as reduced costs and greater speed of transactions are being missed out on, according to new research. The reliance on paper money is also a barrier to "boosting financial inclusion among the world’s two billion …

  1. The Onymous Coward

    That's it, get rid of cash and we can have nice negative interest rates for all the bankster parasites.

    1. GrumpyOldBloke

      No escape from bank-ruptcies. Solve the pesky problem of bank runs.

      1. Tom 13

        Bankruptcies are not the cause of bank runs.

    2. JeffyPoooh Silver badge
      Pint

      Failure to mention Africa's M-Pesa mobile-phone based e-money...

      No mention of M-Pesa.

      No mention of Africa.

      No mention of mobile.

      Kinda leaves a huge gap in the article. Obvious to anyone that's paid even the slightest bit of attention to the topic. City workers able to send e-money home, minus the 7-hour bus ride. It's huge.

      If The Register actually paid Out-Law (Pinsent Masons) for this flawed article, can you get a refund?

      Or send them their fee via M-Pesa.

    3. Primus Secundus Tertius Silver badge

      @Onymous

      You delude yourseld. It is us, the plebs, who would suffer negative interest rates while the money rolls in for the banksters.

      More seriously, the paper, at least as summarised in El Reg, does not mention the issue of trust. Also, it seems to be written in long words for little people.

    4. LucreLout Silver badge
      WTF?

      @The Onymous Coward

      Interesting. On what basis is it you presume (incorrectly as it happens) that negative interest rates would benefit bankers?

      Depending on the make up of debt issued, they might help governments, though that is unlikely. They might help debtors, though that too isn't very likely because most loan agreements recently have a floor below which their rates don't drop regardless of base rate.

      Banks are required to hold massive volumes of cash or cash like instruments in order to meet their regulatory capital demands. Topping that up to meet both the expanding regulatory requirement, and the losses sustained by holding the balance at the BoE would be non-trivial.

      And that is quite aside from the dire economic performance such a situation telegraphs. The risk weighting on existing loans would soar, adding once again to capital adequacy requirements.

      Banks don't want negative rates: They're not good for business.

      The reason for turning rates negative is to encourage businesses to invest their cash piles in the economy, which is a regrettable simplification of global finance that is unlikely to work.

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Anonymous

    If it's not anonymous or at least pseudonymous then I don't want it.

    I think Visa issue my debt card these days, and I definitely don't want some American mega-corp collecting all that data about me.

    Of course things are moving in the opposite of right direction, with the student buying a pint of milk on a debt card being replaced with so much iphone bonking. Even more data mining.

    If things get too bad I'll have to go and live in Japan.

    1. tom dial Silver badge

      Re: Anonymous

      Indeed so. If I were to use a debit card it at least would be one issued by a foreign bank, although I suspect that actually would not throw a lot of sand in the gears. That said, due to better protection against fraudulent use (and the interest free short term loan), I use credit cards for almost all "normal" expenditures and would use cash for any dodgy ones (if, of course, there were any).

      1. Tom 13

        Re: would use cash for any dodgy ones

        I've redefined "dodgy" for those purposes.

        I do generally swipe the plastic for my grocery purchases, and restaurants, but not fast food and definitely not any of the quickie places near work where I pick up my cold bottled water and snacks. Too many people have had credit card details stolen at one of them.

  3. Luke Worm

    Yes, negative interest rates is one thing, transaction fees are the next. And then the government wants to tax every transaction. Without cash there is no escape, except: moving savings to another country, another currency, gold, silver. Of course, in such cases the government would impose an "exit tax".

    Everything is recorded by VISA, your bank, Apple, Google, Facebook and others. All of course in the interest of a greater good (for others).

    1. MrTuK

      Hmmmmm, this is quite a difficult thing to speak about without a totally unbiased opinion.

      But I will try !

      1.) In the west you need to build up a credit rating for mortgages, loans etc and without using digital money like bank cards or credit cards to pay for stuff etc then there is probably no chance to get a good credit rating !

      2.) If you are working then your wages are usually paid digitally into your bank account, but that doesn't stop you withdrawing cash to purchase whatever you want from you account up to your banks daily allowance and/or your balance or overdraft limit.

      3.) Everything you purchase via digital means is data slurped so even if you don't use a store loyalty card the bank actually would know either what you purchased or at the very least where you spent your money so as giving them a digital foot print of your spending.

      4.) From a Governmental monitoring point of view that is good as they can be aware and validate what comes in and out and anything suspicious outside your normal spending habits can be flagged most especially if its above £10,000 !

      5.) Now that cheque's use has almost disappeared this means that when you want to give someone for any purpose good or bad you most probably would have to use either a Bankers draft or Building society cheque, it is quite difficult to withdraw without prior agreement large sums of money otherwise and Banks and Building Societies will make it difficult as possible saying they don't keep that amount of spare cash around. My personal wish would be to be a millionaire and go to my Bank and say I want £100,000 in cash available for collection tomorrow otherwise I will close my account of say £10M just to see what they would do !

      I am just curious is there a special provision for multi-millionaires or would they have the same amount of difficulty as us mere mortals on withdrawing more than £10,000 cash !

      Personally I withdraw what I need at an ATM and spend cash, I don't use store cards so monitoring me is probably a pain in the ass for them although they probably coordinate CCTV camera's everywhere to to work out where I spend every penny - lol.

      But I must admit that I can see a future in the UK of a cashless or extremely rare use of hard cash, just recently the local unmanned Petrol Garage means you have to use a card to get petrol and I think this is the start of the dark slippery slope.

      The UK Government will love it as there will be an almost a non-existence of the black economy where your local Window cleaner or car wash will except cash so all taxes as far as they are concerned will be accountable.

      The direct negative things I can think of, if and when we were to go a completely cashless society are;

      1.) If people are reducing the actual hard cash they are spending in shops then charities will get less as there won't be any spare change to give !

      2.) Your child won't get the £1 coin or whatever you would normally put under the pillow when they lose a tooth !

      3.) The old lady that lives on her own that normally gives cash to the next door neighbour's 14 year old child to go shopping for her as she is physically infirmed would not be possible without cash as how could this be done without giving the child your card and the pin number which is against Bank rules.

      4.) Because everything will be data slurped there is a real possibility that any personal transactions undertaken could entail adverts, for example because everything will be linked digitally if you purchase a Samsung TV from PC World which they usually ask for an address and/or an email address that you will then be inundated with advertising for whatever PC World decides is appropriate or even pass on your details to Samsung so they can flood you with other Samsung products or even some other 3rd party adverting agency etc - This can be avoided using cash and a false email and address !

      This is where cash wins out against using a card as you could give any dodgy email address and address, as long as you retain the till receipt for warranty purposes.

      5.) Relatives cannot given as Cash presents to Children !

      6.) Children would not be able to do odd jobs for neighbour's or paper rounds as how can they be paid !

      7.) Dinner money cannot be given for children not possible without hard cash!

      8.) Children cannot just pop to the shops for their parents to purchase milk etc !

      9.) I am not sure how you would borrow money from a friend without hard cash, if they had lost their card or it was stolen ?

      So although to most of us the negative points I give are probably not going to effect us, apart from item 9 as everyone will possibly lose their card at one time or another. In a cashless society if one loses one's card or it is stolen, your life is really screwed, as without a card you cannot purchase anything not fuel to go to work or a bus ticket or a train ticket unless you use a monthly/yearly season ticket.

      Yup bad enough these days but if you went to you bank with your bank details and a passport they would give you cash ! But in a cashless society No card, No life !

      1. Zimmer

        agree..totally..

        But you missed the darker aspect. As often discussed in, or forming the plots of, sci-fi stories of a dystopian nature, the ability of those in power to cancel your access to your digital credits...

      2. big_D Silver badge

        We probably do about 20% throught standing orders / direct debit, 60% is cash, 19.5% debit card and 0.5% credit card (mainly Amazon / online travel booking etc.).

        Store cards are still pretty rare, here in Germany. People just don't accept them, they are an invasion of privacy.

        Going into debt is still considered shameful by many here. If you don't have the cash, you don't give the money out. If you have cash in your pocket, you know how much you can give out, using cards it is all to easy to lose the overview.

        I haven't met anyone yet, who is the least interested in mobile payment solutions.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          How is...

          Letting the local supermarket know I buy fruit and veg from them an invasion of my privacy?

          1. LucreLout Silver badge

            Re: How is...

            Letting the local supermarket know I buy fruit and veg from them an invasion of my privacy?

            I wrote a paper on this once....

            There's a famous case in America where Target's data mining was so effective it could determine when a shopper was pregnant before often they knew themselves. They sent out a congratulatory pack of offers for nappies & baby milk to a school girl (15).

            Predictably her father called the store manager playing merry hell. The manager apologized and said he'd investigate.

            Two weeks late he made a courtesy call to update the father who simply stated that "there may have been things transpiring under my roof of which I was not previously aware", and admitted that his daughter was in fact pregnant but hadn't yet told her parents. Not a good situation for anyone involved, with obvious privacy concerns.

            If people understood the true predictive power of big data analytics, they'd possibly be a little more careful with their data. If they understood what can be extracted from an image, they'd have a fit.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: How is...

              Thank you. I was not aware, or had forgotten about that kind of instance. It was worth the downvotes for an honest question.

              The other problem, which I have seen from the inside, is companies just don't care how much data they collect.

              Eventually it is personal, private and banking details. What are the odds they remembered to protect it in their rush for glory?

              1. LucreLout Silver badge
                Terminator

                Re: How is...

                What are the odds they remembered to protect it in their rush for glory?

                In Targets case? Not high. They recently went on to get owned for a long period and lost sole custody of a lot of data.

                The thing with the Target data mining is that this was decades old technology. Whatever they're capable of now will be far more sophisticated. They can probably just about predict when you'll die and what of.... stuff that would be useful to companies you would rather not have that data.

                Sadly they'll never do anything useful with the data, like help guide medical research, they'll simply use it to sell you more crap you don't need and didn't know you wanted.

      3. Tom 13

        Re: I want £100,000 in cash available for collection tomorrow

        They'll lose your account. Not because they want to, but because despite what you think, they simply DON'T have that kind of cash available to them. They will probably willing to write you a cashier's check or equivalent.

        There was one occasion on which we needed a mere $17,000 in small bills (nothing larger than a $10) and coin to make change for our convention over the weekend. None of the three branches of our bank could supply it with less than a week of notice. Even trying to go to three different branches to get the total amount would have been difficult. No, it wasn't our fault. We called 3 months in advance and asked what lead time they needed. They said a week. When we gave the a week it was insufficient. Then to completely bollux things, when I arrived at the first location, we discovered that although I'd been making deposits for well over a year and the teller knew me, there were NO names authorized to make a withdrawal. I called the previous treasurer in another city who also happened to be a banker and she straightened it out.

        1. Pompous Git Silver badge

          Re: I want £100,000 in cash available for collection tomorrow

          Then to completely bollux things, when I arrived at the first location, we discovered that although I'd been making deposits for well over a year and the teller knew me, there were NO names authorized to make a withdrawal.

          I was in the bank at UTas a few years ago and a member of staff was attempting to send money overseas to his daughter overseas and being refused by the teller. She refused to recognise him. Pretty much everyone else in the bank did; he was on a very popular weekly TV show called The Collectors, never mind that he was a senior lecturer.

    2. LucreLout Silver badge

      @Luke Worm

      negative interest rates is one thing, transaction fees are the next

      Yup. Negative rates don't work well if people can convert to cash or cash like things. I'm not convinced transaction fees are next, but they're probably on the table somewhere. What the government really want to do is eliminate tax dodging by working or paying cash in hand; unfortunately that makes everyone's transactions traceable thus eliminating privacy.

      Without cash there is no escape, except: moving savings to another country, another currency, gold, silver.

      Another country & currency exposes you to FX & political risk in the new country. Unfortunately it's not a free ride, though I suspect a lot of people would go that route.

      Gold & silver don't work well either due to the bid:offer spread available on in hand commodities, rather than those held within a vault.

      I simply don't have a better answer however, because I don't think there is one available yet. I do expect someone would find a way to workable solution to the problem, but I don't think it's going to be any of the above.

  4. Snowy

    The title should be

    Most of the world still to poor for the banks to consider robbing!

    I wonder how many of these "unbanked" also do not have access to reliable clean water, housing and food. Considering that a bank account is the least of their problems.

    1. a_yank_lurker Silver badge

      Re: The title should be

      Bingo, also being cash only is not really a problem. As others have noted a cashless economy is one where every transaction is recorded somewhere. There are very severe, potential privacy risks. Cash avoids this, the transaction can not be easily tied to a specific individual.

      Mostly, PHB hot air babbling about not being able to fleece some innocents.

      1. Secman

        Re: The title should be

        > being cash only is not really a problem

        Being cashless only isn't really a problem either. I cant recall when I last undertook a cash transaction, I've had a $20 note in my wallet waiting for a cash emergency for well over a year. Seems odd that New Zealand scores relatively lowly in this index, yet, day to day, it is largely a cash-free society. The only important use for cash is where one wants to pay for a service "under the counter" (a/k/a a "cashie") to avoid tax.

        1. Pompous Git Silver badge

          Re: The title should be

          The only important use for cash is where one wants to pay for a service "under the counter" (a/k/a a "cashie") to avoid tax.

          You got something against cashies?

    2. JeffyPoooh Silver badge

      Re: The title should be

      "...still to poor..."

      too

      Read up on how M-Pesa changed the lives of many in Africa. Replace a monthly seven-hour bus ride back to the home village to deliver cash, getting robbed and murdered of course, with a mobile e-transfer back to the family.

      The efficiency of the system will save them enough money to buy a water filter. And more food. And fix the roof.

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    nowt wrong with cash

    When governments/google/busineses are tracking you with your elecronic footprint 24/7

    So what if I bought X at shop Y in Town W on day Z. That is my business. If that purchase is legal then IMHO none of the above should be able to discover that I paid £19.99 for it when [insert online store of choice] has it avaiable for £19.95. Tough shit. I made a decision to buy the object. I really don't want to be bombarded with adverts for similar/'you may like' things for the rest of my days on this plant.

    I'm doing more and more business with cash these days just because it gives zero information about me to the business who I buy from and the likes of Google.

    Perhaps when you get to my age you might have different views to what you have today. I'm 62 years young.

    1. Grahame 2
      Pint

      Re: nowt wrong with cash

      Apart from on-line, I tend to use cash for everything, apart from the privacy implications I know exactly how much I am spending based on a simple visual inspection of my on-person beer token container.

      Yes, that cash usually comes out of an ATM, but all they know is I took out a hundred or two and (maybe) spent it!

      1. Charles 9 Silver badge

        Re: nowt wrong with cash

        They figure the money gets spent eventually (otherwise you wouldn't have taken it out, due to inflation "cash in the mattress" loses value over time) AND they figure you'll have spent it in the general area. Give time and increased facial recognition, cash serial number tracking (Where's George?) and even cash will be functionally traceable and the only way to operate completely tracelessly will be in barter of self-made perishable goods.

        1. xenny

          Re: nowt wrong with cash

          Given the growing prevalence of negative interest rates (although they've yet to reach the consumer in most countries) Cash in the matress may start losing value more slowly than cash in the bank.

          I wonder if one appeal of moving to cashless societies is that it makes it more practical to deploy negative interest rates come the next economic downturn, as it looks as if they're never going to raise them much if this one ever really finishes.

          1. Charles 9 Silver badge

            Re: nowt wrong with cash

            Those negative interest rates typically only apply to savings accounts (checking accounts are frequently non-interest or at best tiny-interest) so as to discourage hoarding, plus banks always need an incentive for people to put money in with them so they can lend it out, so that puts competitive pressure on the banks to keep a positive savings rate.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: nowt wrong with cash

              "so that puts competitive pressure on the banks to keep a positive savings rate."

              Not sure that is logically correct... it puts pressure on banks to provide a better savings rate than other banks...that rate could still however be negative.

            2. Tom 13

              Re: puts competitive pressure on the banks

              Bullshit.

              Best rate I've managed in the last 8 years is 1%, which given inflation is still a negative return for keeping my money in the bank. And these days the banks don't get their money from those accounts. They get it directly from the fed because it is cheaper.

        2. Spoonsinger

          Re: "cash in the mattress" loses value over time

          It doesn't loose that much overtime as the "cash mattress" can pay for things at 20%+ less, (or whatever you local dubious automated tax suckage is).

          1. Def Silver badge

            Re: "cash in the mattress" loses value over time

            I moved to Spain about nine months after Euro currency was introduced, and I heard stories of farmers and other Spaniards driving around in brand new Land Rovers (et al) buying up apartments and houses for cash. Presumably cash they'd been squirrelling away since the days of Franco. Typically the transaction went something like this: "I like this. How much is it?" ... *Goes to car, fetches briefcase*. "Here."

    2. Tom 13

      Re: If that purchase is legal

      Mostly, not always.

      One of the other great data mining stories on this side of the pond is about the police and 7-11. It seems 7-11 was doing data analysis on things purchased in their store and grouping together things that were frequently purchased with each other. One day while wandering through the store a police officer noticed three perfectly legal things grouped together on a shelf. They were the sorts of things you and I mostly likely wouldn't associate with each other. IIRC it was alcohol, mothballs, and anti-histamines. At the time these happened to be a popular method for cooking meth. Conversations ensued and 7-11 showed the police the analytic data. Since there was no bad intent 7-11 wasn't prosecuted, and they stopped grouping the items together on the shelves.

  6. Gene Cash Silver badge

    Asshole American banks

    When I was a customer at Washington Mutual, I discovered that if I made out a check to someone, and they came to WaMu to cash it, they would be charged $5 per check. "Just because". As quickly as I could, about 2 months later I became a non-customer because of this.

    And of course, Washington Mutual famously went under as one of the big American bank failures. I didn't shed a tear.

    1. ecofeco Silver badge

      Re: Asshole American banks

      This is SOP at all US banks now. Why this isn't illegal is not acceptable.

      1. Tom 13

        Re: Asshole American banks

        It costs banks money to store money, cash checks and process loans. They use to make this by making loans at a fair price above what they paid on deposits. Along came freetards like you who objected and the government set limits on what they could make. Then the governments forced the rates even lower with inflation. So now the only way for banks to cover those fees is to enact transaction charges to cover the cost.

        Life is tough. It gets tougher when you're stupid. The rest of us wish people like you would keep your stupidity to yourselves instead of sharing it.

  7. Doctor_Wibble
    WTF?

    Financial inclusion?

    This is one of those terms of envy, 'we want to handle their money for them'.

    How many of these 'unbanked' people would actually benefit from having a digital bank account based at a bank with no branch for 200 miles and whose website is inaccessible half the time because their mobile provider only barely functions in their area?

    FTA: "A number of less mature countries start out by making opportunistic progress" - is this actually clean money or did it turn up as a result of dodgy goings-on or some opportunistic emails regarding dead princes, dictators etc?

    And maybe I am misunderstanding but this PSD2 thing looks like an enabler for loads of third parties to 'manage my accounts' on my behalf and access all my financial info which (although not vast fortunes in my case) sounds like a seriously unwise thing to do. It's going to be done in an app, isn't it? That's going to end well.

    And in any case I never trust anyone who says my money would be better in their hands.

  8. Mage Silver badge

    IBAN

    It can work over mobile phone.

    Anonymous is a separate issue, the problem is it makes it hard to pay bills via third party or get money back on faulty or undelivered goods. It's most attractive for purchase direct of illegal goods and money laundering.

    Why has USA not adopted IBAN? It's better than Paypal and FAR better than Western Union or similar. Also better than credit cards or debit cards for safe payment.

    1. Charles 9 Silver badge

      Re: IBAN

      Probably because they don't want to be beholden to a foreign power. They'll take their chances with Western Union and MoneyGram and PayPal, thank you, unless you can force the issue.

    2. GrumpenKraut Silver badge

      Re: IBAN

      > Why has USA not adopted IBAN?

      Maybe because "it's communism". Like the metric system. I wish I was kidding.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: IBAN

        I'm starting to like communism just because it pisses the Americans off.

  9. Christian Berger Silver badge

    There's a good and a bad side to this

    The good side is that it makes it easy to make your everyday transactions anonymously. This is important in any democracy.

    The bad thing is that "suitcases full of money" actually exist and are a common form of money transfer for large illicit purchases. Back when Swiss still had anonymous accounts, it was not uncommon to have people drive over the border with huge amounts of cash.

    So ideally we'd get rid of high value denominations. Getting rid of everything above 100 Euros/Dollars would turn one suitcase of money into 5 or 10, making this kind of illegitimate transfer much more cubersome.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: There's a good and a bad side to this

      Getting rid of everything above 100 Euros/Dollars would turn one suitcase of money into 5 or 10, making this kind of illegitimate transfer much more cubersome.

      Yes, but insufficiently to deter money launderers and dirty money transactions. You can fit $1m in $100 bills into a standard briefcase. If that had to be in $20, then it'd only be $200k, but if instead you used a medium sized suitcase, you can fit in 74,000 notes, so $1.4m in $20 bills.

      My guess is that those trafficking in million dollar settlements wouldn't struggle if each briefcase had to be replaced by said medium sized suitcase. And a single drag bag full of $20 bills must be about $5m.

      How many dodgy transactions exceed $5m, do you think?

      1. Charles 9 Silver badge

        Re: There's a good and a bad side to this

        Plus what if they switched to high-valued barter like gold or jewels?

      2. Chris G Silver badge

        Re: There's a good and a bad side to this

        In the good old days of the Costa Del Crime, money moved around quite a lot in car roof linings.

        You would be amazed at how many second hand British cars were for sale in Spain with the roof ling falling down.

        A remark heard frequently some years ago " There's old **&^%(&, every few weeks he comes out for a holiday and he's in a different car!"

        Not sure how much would fit in a head lining butI'll bet it's more than a million in mixed notes.

        Also as Spain used to be Europe's gateway for drugs into Europe it was cars going to France , Germany and the UK that were searched, not so much for cars coming into Spain ( with much needed currency)

        1. Pompous Git Silver badge

          Re: There's a good and a bad side to this

          Also as Spain used to be Europe's gateway for drugs into Europe it was cars going to France , Germany and the UK that were searched, not so much for cars coming into Spain ( with much needed currency)

          That brought a smile as I recalled a tale told by two musicians I used to knock about with. They were leaving Spain and shortly before reaching the French border, the passenger threw their remaining dope out of the window before reaching customs.

          Customs tore all the linings of their car out, searched the boot etc finding nothing. Driving on toward Paris the passenger looked inside the glovebox for something and noticed the dope wrapped in foil was still there. He'd thrown out some salt, also wrapped in foil, by mistake. Both agreed the joint they then smoked was one of the most enjoyable they ever had.

      3. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge

        Re: There's a good and a bad side to this

        Have you seen the size of suitcases that Japanese/Korean tourists lug around? Megsized.

        You could get a lot of £50 notes in them. Note that I use £ rather than $ because currently, the pound is worth more than the Dollar unless you are a US company trading here who seem to use $1===£1 as the exchange rate. Grrrrrrrrr.

      4. MonkeyCee Silver badge

        Re: There's a good and a bad side to this

        "How many dodgy transactions exceed $5m, do you think?"

        Lots. I helped with the research for a paper on various parts of the underground economy (my part was about bitcoin and dark web markets) and the size of the known unknowns is huuuuge. Arms, drugs, pharamcuticals and fake goods make up something like 5-15% of the GDP of most countries. There are obviously quite large deals going on between various groups, many of which will be over the 5 million mark.

        While cash is quite appealing for a number of these transactions, over the last 20 years or so there has been a movement away from cash and direct money transfers. This is in part because of the money laundering and anti-terrorism laws, better tracking of funds, and the gradual reduction of banking secrecy (regarding accounts). The more common methods for large transactions now are using safety deposit boxes (full banking secrecy applies still) and using high value items as barter, such as artworks, vehicles or weapons.

        1. Queasy Rider

          How many dodgy transactions exceed $5m, do you think?

          Consider drugs. The small time dealer on the street is always paid in relatively small bills. After all, how many addicts pay for a fifty dollar hit with a hundred note? As these payments move up the chain, by the time they are shifted to places like Colombia or Mexico we are talking pallets of cash, not suitcases any more. Lesser quantities fill small trucks. The feds have seized planes stuffed to the gills with cash. Any bank customer that consistently makes large deposits of small bills is flagged to the authorities by many banks. In the 1990s, when I passed an extended period in Key West Florida, I was amazed at all the ridiculously cheap T-shirt shops, 3 or 4 garbage quality shirts going for ten or twenty bucks. The consensus was that this was drug money being laundered, buy the wholesale shirts in small quantities with small bills, cash, sell at a slight loss, bank the sales legally. Simple.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: There's a good and a bad side to this

      "...make your everyday transactions anonymously..."

      Pointless. Unless your 'everyday' purchases are something to hide.

      It's the 'unusual' purchases that you'd want to use cash.

    3. Primus Secundus Tertius Silver badge

      Re: There's a good and a bad side to this

      "They" aboolished sterling bank notes of more then £5 during World War 2, to stifle the black market.

    4. Tom 13

      Re: There's a good and a bad side to this

      My weekly grocery bill is $200. With your plan, I'd need a full wallet just to pay my grocery bill.

      Your plan sucks.

  10. BongoJoe
    Pint

    Eh?

    meaning that benefits such as reduced costs and greater speed of transactions are being missed out on

    "Two pints of foaming ale, landlord."

    "That'll be seven quid, sir" *

    "Here you go. A fiver and a two pound coin."

    "Thank you, sir"

    No. Sorry. I can't see how this transaction speed can be muchly improved upon.

    But in the interests of investigative communtardism I shall go out and test this repeatedly this very evening.

    *This may vary greatly to where you are.

    1. Charles 9 Silver badge

      Re: Eh?

      With an online order, you can order it before you even arrive and have it ready for you when you walk in the door. That may be less practical for quick-turnaround stuff like beer, but for something like dinner or takeout that removes the waiting in line, saving time (and by the equation money).

      Inside bars and the like, maybe you can request something at something like a Ziosk without having to signal for a bartender.

      1. Pompous Git Silver badge

        Re: Eh?

        That may be less practical for quick-turnaround stuff like beer, but for something like dinner or takeout that removes the waiting in line, saving time (and by the equation money).

        Every summer Hobart cordons off the waterfront for a festival called Taste of Tasmania where patrons get to sample the food and wine for which Tasmania is justifiably famous. This year, in order to finance it, the Hobart City Council decided it would be cashless. All transactions were electronic and the Council raked in 10% of every transaction, as well as charging the stallholders for being there.

        Stallholders said the new system resulted in lost sales as customers had to wait while the cashless transaction was processed. There were also claims of discrepancies with transaction records, with some saying they were out by more than $4,000 a day.

        A substantial number of stallholders are demanding council refund the 10 per cent levy, saying the problems not only lost them sales but cost them money. Acting Deputy Mayor Ron Christie brushed off the criticism and said teething problems were expected. He said the system was a success and would be used again next year.

        One stallholder told me that they had lost money at the event for the first time and they and others would not be returning. Several patrons have told me that they were already considering not going to the Taste next year as the already long waiting in queues had become completely unbearable. The Git had already stopped going when the wait for the ostrich roll, or glass of overpriced* wine became too much. Amazing what government can do to destroy financial success!

        * Tasmanian wine is cool climate so yields are low, but that is offset by incredible flavour. All the grapes are hand, rather than machine-picked, also adding to production costs. At the Taste, you are also purchasing the souvenir glass (plastic) and when you add in the extra the stallholder charges above pub price, and the Council's 10% then the price has gone through the roof.

        1. x 7

          Re: Eh?

          "ostrich roll"

          wouldn't emu roll be more authentic?

          I guess too far south for cassowarys........

          1. Pompous Git Silver badge

            Re: Eh?

            wouldn't emu roll be more authentic?

            Ostrich farming is the latest get-rich-quick farming scheme [sigh]:

            http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/bushtelegraph/ostrich-farming/4754110

            Of course ostrich tastes just like emu, which tastes just like snake which tastes just like alligator which tastes just like chicken. Or something. Think I'll stick with the chicken. And a nice Nelson chardonnay ;-)

            http://www.neudorf.co.nz/our-wines/chardonnay/neudorf-chardonnay/

        2. JeffyPoooh Silver badge
          Pint

          Re: Eh? Taste of Tasmania

          They're doing it wrong.

          A good debit card system takes about the same time as making change. If one uses bonk-pay cards, then it's faster; in fact there's nothing faster.

          The system should provide the option of paper receipts for both parties. Every transaction should have a unique number assigned. It should be completely auditable.

          Did these people roll out their own flawed system?

          1. Pompous Git Silver badge

            Re: Eh? Taste of Tasmania

            Did these people roll out their own flawed system?

            Of course. What else would you expect from political wankers?

          2. Tom 13

            Re: They're doing it wrong.

            I've never seen a festival system where the credit cards worked as quickly or robustly as cash. The first obstacle is frequently the connection itself. In a brick and mortar store this will be a fast wired connection that has probably been configured for months. Festival vendors usually wind up on wireless. Even if it isn't wireless, having just been set up there are likely to be connection issues. And that's before you get to potential power issues and training the temp staff to handle cards. In the US, you also get time for the signature.

      2. ElectricRook

        Re: Eh?

        You're totally missing the point of going out with a friend for some suds. It's about relaxing, taking your time, browsing over the beer selection, browsing over the girl selection, scanning for some other mates who might have dropped by, chatting up the barmaid, then ordering up some beer.

        Not slammin' down some alcohol and jammin' out the door.

        1. hplasm Silver badge
          Facepalm

          Re: Eh?

          "...then ordering up some beer."

          This is the part that you don't want to take time.

      3. noj

        Re: Eh?

        "With an online order, you can order it before you even arrive and have it ready for you when you walk in the door. "

        Not criticizing your logic, but if I really want a beverage that quickly I can have it before I walk OUT the door AND use cash! All I have to do it open the refrigerator...

        1. Tim Wolfe-Barry

          Re: Eh?

          If I'm THAT thirsty, I can use a device called a "telephone" to let my local know I'm coming - They'll pull it and have it on the bar waiting when I get there (45 seconds after leaving the house - I need to call before putting on my shoes, otherwise I'm there before the beer!)

          My question about going cash-less: If there's no cash; how can I send my 8 y.o. to the corner shop to buy milk/bread/coffee when we run out? He doesn't have a bank account or even a phone (Mpesa)...

          1. Pompous Git Silver badge

            Re: Eh?

            If there's no cash; how can I send my 8 y.o. to the corner shop to buy milk/bread/coffee when we run out?

            Tell him to steal it? And not to forget the Razzle ;-)

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxW10ygAs9M

    2. phil dude
      Pint

      Re: Eh?

      as a relevant aside, I still do that here in the US - even though I can run "a tab".

      It only took one night of unexpected excitement(!) to see the flaw in that plan...

      Icon is most appropriate....

      P.

    3. Richard 12 Silver badge

      Re: Eh?

      The intention is for the other end of the transaction to be faster.

      Namely "cashing up" at the end of the night doesn't involve counting many items and taking them to a bank.

      Unfortunately, it's very hard to verify a cashless system. If the publican believes that they took £1000 but the cashless provider claims they only took £900, how do you prove it?

      With cash you do a recount of both ends - till roll and contents. Can't do that in a cashless system.

      So the business must have 100% trust and confidence in the cashless provider. If they don't, they cannot afford to use them at all.

      Equally, so must the customers.

      1. JeffyPoooh Silver badge
        Pint

        Re: Eh?

        "Unfortunately, it's very hard to verify a cashless system. If the publican believes that they took £1000 but the cashless provider claims they only took £900, how do you prove it? With cash you do a recount of both ends - till roll and contents. Can't do that in a cashless system."

        In Canada, it's nearly universal that the debit card system prints out two copies of the debit receipt. One copy goes in the till. If there's any discrepancy, then they can check the paper copies. Otherwise, just file them for 90 days, then shred.

        1. Pompous Git Silver badge

          Re: Eh?

          In Canada, it's nearly universal that the debit card system prints out two copies of the debit receipt. One copy goes in the till. If there's any discrepancy, then they can check the paper copies. Otherwise, just file them for 90 days, then shred.

          So that raises the question of how do you cope with patrons who possess neither debit, nor credit cards? HCC had a booth where you could purchase a card that carried a certain amount of credit, but that was outside the regular banking systems. It's probably here that the skimming took place, but only time will tell. Maybe... I'm not holding my breath.

          1. Tom 13

            Re: was outside the regular banking systems.

            As the vendor you should still have the receipts. And the receipts should be sufficient to sue council for payment.

      2. Wensleydale Cheese Silver badge
        FAIL

        Double Eh?

        "f the publican believes that they took £1000 but the cashless provider claims they only took £900, how do you prove it?

        With cash you do a recount of both ends - till roll and contents. Can't do that in a cashless system."

        There's nothing to stop you having a till roll recording every transaction in a cashless system. You need that information for replenishing your stock and checking that some of that hasn't "wandered".

        The cashless provider does NOT get to tell you how much you have sold. You keep your records, they keep theirs, and they are reconciled on a regular basis.

        1. Pompous Git Silver badge

          Re: Double Eh?

          The cashless provider does NOT get to tell you how much you have sold. You keep your records, they keep theirs, and they are reconciled on a regular basis.

          All well and good if the two records reconcile. As I pointed out in my earlier post re the Taste of Tasmania, those records do not necessarily reconcile. How do you prove that the "cashless" provider hasn't trousered several thousand dollars that should rightfully be yours?

          1. Tom 13

            Re: How do you prove

            The receipts you kept for each transaction.

      3. Tom 13

        Re: very hard to verify a cashless system.

        No it's not. The key element of verifying the transactions is that the cash matches the receipts not that the double count matches. Cashless transactions still have the receipts, and should still retain enough of the account number to uniquely identify the missing transactions.

        Where cashless loses businesses money is when the card holder claims the charge is bogus and the vendor no longer has the record to prove otherwise, or it simply isn't worth the cost to challenge it.

  11. x 7

    Who's the naive prat who financed the survey? Anyone with a brain could have predicted the results.

    Countries with a technical infrastructure (electricity, phones, internet) use electronic money

    Those who haven't, don't.

    And those with the least technology i.e. those with no mains water, no sewerage, no permanent roads, are the least likely to use electronic money. And those with the least are a bloody big proportion of the worlds population

    Looking at it from another angle, the push to use electronic money, even among the worlds poor, is just another form of taxation. But a taxation from the corporate system, not a taxation of government.. It represents another step in the corporate usurpation of government

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Actually there are plenty of poorer countries in Africa that do quite a lot with electronic money - the rise of mobile phone networks in those countries allows for mobile payment services in some of the remotest and poorest areas where there is no sign of a physical bank presence.

      1. Charles 9 Silver badge

        But how do they charge their phones in an area with no electricity?

        PS. Reminds me of the short where Paddington tried to sell a vacuum cleaner to a man on gas.

        1. Richard 12 Silver badge

          Lots of ways to charge a phone

          Petrol generators are common.

          Solar power is often feasible - and provided by charitable donation to boot.

          Human power for a mobile phone is also quite common.

          A 3000mAh phone battery is about 40kJ, or 10 food calories.

          10% of a twinkie.

          1. Pompous Git Silver badge

            Re: Lots of ways to charge a phone

            10% of a twinkie.

            And a helluva lot less fattening ;-)

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          "...how do they charge their phones...?"

          "But how do they charge their phones in an area with no electricity?"

          Obviously they've figured it out.

  12. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    No Cash = Absolute slaves to the system and as has become apparent we don't get to choose what that system is.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      No cash = Truck system

      Albeit a truck system expanded to encompass the whole of society. You get paid in national "scrip", and a central authority decides who can accept it.

      Not a huge stretch, since Mastercard/Visa can withdraw card processing and destroy your small business already, if enough customers try to defraud you.

  13. Joe Gurman

    Just a couple of questions

    If 2 billion out of a word population of over 7 billion are "unbanked" (what a miserable turn of phrase), how is that "most?"

    How do bank transactions benefit anyone but banks? If we all paid cash instead of using credit and debit cards, there would be no bank fees. Admittedly, plastic is much more convenient than case, even in countries other than the US, where ATMs (cash points) distribute only one denomination of currency.

    Could I be justified in assuming that any report by a large, global banking firm (Citi) and a uni economics department might be ever so slightly biased favo[u]r of the banks' way of doing things?

    The only advantage in gaining bank services in the US to people currently without bank accounts (the poor and.or undocumented, generally) would be the ability to avoid the tens of thousands of loathsome "pay day" loan and check cashing storefronts, in fact owned by large banking chains. They charge astonishingly usurious interest rates, and are the only resort for some millions of people. Need repairs to your auto to get to work, but no car to do so? They'll lend it to you at 30% and take the car as collateral, which means in almost all cases repossessing the car in a month or two. Dickensian.

    1. Vic

      Re: Just a couple of questions

      They'll lend it to you at 30%

      30%?

      Over here, they seem to be mostly in the 1250%-1600% range. And that's down from the 6000% I saw a few years back.

      We used to have a law against usury. It needs to be reinstated...

      Vic.

      1. Tom 13

        Re: We used to have a law against usury.

        It's a problem of quanta. It costs some amount of money to process any request, say $25. No matter how small the transaction you HAVE to recover the $25, even if its $100 for only a week. Yes, that leads to absurd percentage rates. That's why if you need $100 for a week you're best borrowing it from a mate, or better yet, just not buying whatever it was you THOUGHT you needed.

        Full disclosure: my roomie routinely makes $1000 payday type loans to a friend at no interest.

  14. dcluley

    Transport

    Just one example of the difficulties of a totally cash free society. There is currently a surge towards card payment of (eg) train fares. OK for London with fixed fares and zones; but if they tried to make it national is thee not a danger that using a card (or equivalent) will get one charged an expensive fare rather than the cheapest. They could rationalise the current fare structure but somehow I doubt it.

    1. Roo
      Windows

      Re: Transport

      "They could rationalise the current fare structure but somehow I doubt it."

      That's part of the inevitable price of privatisation... Most of the folks I know who wanted the railways privatised at the time are regretting their enthusiasm, the folks who don't regret it don't use the railways at all.

    2. Wensleydale Cheese Silver badge
      Unhappy

      Re: Transport

      "There is currently a surge towards card payment of (eg) train fares."

      Something a recent visitor from Oz had problems with was the lack of ticket machines taking cash. Yes he could use his Australian credit card but that incurred a "transaction charge" for each and every use abroad.

      It's another way to make your country more expensive for tourists, which at some point means that more of them will go elsewhere, and tourist income will be down for hotels and restaurants too.

      1. Pompous Git Silver badge

        Re: Transport

        Yes he could use his Australian credit card but that incurred a "transaction charge" for each and every use abroad.

        You can obtain a special card for travel that apparently reduces those charges. When I applied for one at my bank prior to travelling to NZ, the staffer I spoke to me gave me a very useful hint. "Just use the ATM's owned by [redacted] and you won't incur any extra charges; that bank is owned by this bank. But don't tell anyone I told you!"

  15. Neil Barnes Silver badge
    Holmes

    More efficient to pay electronically?

    So why does it cost more to use a credit card to buy a flight? Why am I expected to pay a transaction fee if I buy a ticket for just about anything?

    1. TechnicalBen Silver badge
      Coat

      Re: More efficient to pay electronically?

      That is for insurance reasons. Credit cards insure the purchase. Cash, obviously, does not.

      Credit cards if done right, give around 30 days interest free advances, can be much quicker than visiting bank, counting out 100s of notes, going to shop, counting again, and getting goods. Also allows for purchase over the phone/internet and saves the trip to the bank, as which driver wants to count £/$2500 for that new tv you bought at the door! :D Let alone take it back in a van marked "I'm carrying lots of cash and TVs".

      But then again, debit cards can do a lot of that. It does not need to be a credit card. Just a trusted money transfer system. Which with banks is cards, and online is paypal... no wait, did I just say paypal is trusted? ;)

      Coat, as mine is the one with a big wad of "iou" notes.

      1. Tom 13

        Re: give around 30 days interest free advances

        Those 30 day "free" advances are being paid for by the blokes who are making minimum payments and are periodically late with their payments by a day or two.

        Now if you're the sort who thing the poor and the stupid should make life easier for you, you won't have a problem with that. But don't go blaming the greedy banks for stealing from the poor for your benefit.

  16. Pompous Git Silver badge

    What happens when nothing is acceptable?

    For a quarter of a century, the Git caught the bus to the city. His computer training business made substantially more income than it would have if he had maintained an extra vehicle. The bus company changed hands and on the first day the Git needed a new 10-trip ticket, he presented a cheque made out for the appropriate amount. The bus driver refused it on the grounds that I needed to make a "prior arrangement".

    "Surely 25 years of paying by cheque is a prior arrangement" the Git responded, but the driver was adamant. The Git purchased a one way ticket with the little cash he had on him.

    During the day, the Git managed to get to a cash point and presented the bus driver with a $100 bill which was all that ATMs issued in those days. The bus driver said "I can't make change for that!". So the Git said: "well, you don't take credit cards, you don't take cash and I don't do sex with fugly bus drivers!" The other passengers cheered.

    A neighbour kindly lent me the cost of a one way ticket, the last I ever purchased from that company. As many hitherto bus company customers discovered the joys of car-sharing, the bus company's fortunes declined and they had to cancel some routes to "save costs". Private enterprise are just as capable of destroying a successful business as government it seems.

  17. Diogenes

    Back in the days of the cold war

    there was a study done, where the FBI determined it was cheaper to track a member of the Soviet Embassy whenever they left said embassy if they gave them a no limit CC , than to use real live agents, Between that a modern mobile phone ...

  18. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Total nonsense

    "meaning that benefits such as reduced costs and greater speed of transactions are being missed out on"... I have yet to find any cost charged by the bank to be cheaper than another service e.g. transferring money internationally.

    Also this speed is the slowest possible since speed = distance / time, so if we factor in the non-banking days when nothing happens, that speed drops very dramatically.

    In the last few years the UK has got almost instant bank transfers domestically, but this is a pretty new thing. Where i am in Asia, i keep my money out of the bank so i can reliably get it when i want it, not when they decide to turn on the computers next (Chinese new year closed my bank for 9 consecutive days last year).

  19. derfer

    I don't get why Chad & Ethiopia are a the bottom of this list. In both those countries you can use credit cards. Right next door in Sudan you can't use credit cards at all (something to do with it being based on American technology), and to use the ATM's you need an in-country bank account so everything is done in cash.

  20. Wommit

    Cash less society will never happen

    The politicians won't allow it. How would they get their 'little brown bags' of incentive?

    1. Roo
      Windows

      Re: Cash less society will never happen

      "The politicians won't allow it. How would they get their 'little brown bags' of incentive?"

      Brown bags of incentive are rather crass and quite frankly not necessary. Outrageous day rates work just as well, and it appears that if you are rich enough the Tax man will be quite happy to settle up to the tune of 10p in the Pound.

    2. Tom 13

      Re: Cash less society will never happen

      With the appropriate smoke screens from the lawyers, you can do it all electronically in larger amounts and still have the IRS take their cut where applicable. Which reduces the risk you lose an election for being caught taking a little brown bag.

  21. Natasha Live

    Let's go to digital cash: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/01/29/oh_no_hsbc_online_service_out_again/

    Hum, Let's sort out the digital money first.

    1. Wensleydale Cheese Silver badge

      "Hum, Let's sort out the digital money first."

      Let's also sort out Identity fraud:

      "Millions of people are affected by identity theft each year. It might start with a mysterious credit card charge, a bill you don’t recognize, or a letter from the IRS that says you already got your refund — even though you didn’t."

      A cashless society carries the risk that you have all your eggs in one basket.

  22. Red Bren
    Windows

    Hard currency. That will do nicely!

    During the recent floods, some small businesses* in out-of-the-way* parts of Yorkshire were forced to rely on cash only, as the phone system drowned. They could have kept taking credit card transactions if only someone knew how to use the hand operated paper receipt machines...

    * including Marks & Spencer

    ** Leeds city centre

  23. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Cash is king. Well, apart from online purchasing.

    If someone were to look at my bank statements for outgoing monies then almost all they'd see is PayPal transactions, which without access to my eBay & PayPal accounts is practically meaningless in terms of what was bought.

    For buying things in bricks'n'mortar shops I almost always use cash, mainly because it helps me keep track of what I've spent as I can instantly see how much I have left in my wallet, and with cash it means if you don't have it you can't spend it and get into debt.

    If I were to use cards all the time it makes it trickier to keep track of what's spent because my online bank statement isn't as realtime as the cash in my wallet, and at the end of the day I prefer physical cash in my hands whereas banks it's all just numbers on a screen.

    For really big purchases a credit card is very useful though, mainly for the protection it gives compared to a cash purchase.

  24. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Most of the internet still dependent on cache

    Just this.

  25. Someone Else Silver badge
    FAIL

    Most people in the world are still dependent on using cash for making basic payments, meaning that benefits such as reduced costs and greater speed of transactionsproblems like hacked credit/debit cards, account stealing, higher transactions costs and lack of anonymity are being missed out on, according to new researchanyone who is not a bankster (and who has two neurons to rub together).

    There, FTFY.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      And in their place, you have counterfeit currency and pickpockets (you can't block stolen cash the way you can with a stolen credit card). Sounds a lot like you lose either way.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        "you can't block stolen cash the way you can with a stolen credit card"

        But on the flip side if you get paid in cash for something then the payment can't get reversed like a credit card transaction can be.

        Virtual and physical forms of money have strengths and weaknesses in areas that the other form doesn't, meaning both are here to stay for the forseeable future.

  26. Roj Blake Silver badge

    Hidden Costs

    Everyone seems to forget that whenever you use a credit (but not debit) card the card company skims a couple of percent off the top.

    This means that once a certain proportion of transactions that are conducted by card is reached, shops have to increase their prices to maintain their margins.

    1. Tom 13

      Re: Hidden Costs

      The card company skims a couple percent of the top regardless of type. YOU might not see it, but it still gets skimmed, and it gets passed to you in the form of a higher price.

  27. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Card is dumb?

    In France most people use their Carte Bleu (bank card) and, because it has Visa or mastercard, they don't have a credit card as well. So what happens when your card can't be read?

    Well this happened to me recently.

    1. You have to go to YOUR branch to request a new card. You can't do it from another branch of the same bank. Oh no. YOU HAVE TO GO TO YOUR BRANCH! So if you're on holiday in Nice and your bank's in Lille you're stuffed. Though you can get emergency cash.

    2. Once you've ordered your new card, it takes 7 days minimum to arrive.

    So what do you do? You have to use cash!

    Ah I hear to thinking, what about cheques. Because the terrorists have won, in France, you can only use a cheque for up to a maximum of 5,000€ and you can't write multiple cheques to the same business on the same day.

    Electronics and things like cards are great until they don't work then you NEED cash. So, even in developed countries, cash is not going away anytime soon,

    1. Pompous Git Silver badge

      Re: Card is dumb?

      Electronics and things like cards are great until they don't work then you NEED cash.

      About once a year the Gits suffer from identity fraud. Luckily, the bank is onto it straight away and it doesn't cost us any money. Nevertheless, it's quite frustrating being without a card for a week.

      Why only one credit account for the two of us? Because it's a condition of the special low rate of interest on our overdraft. Fuck knows why.

  28. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Most people in the world are still dependent on using cash for making basic payments, meaning that benefits such as reduced costs and greater speed of transactions are being missed out on, according to new research.

    So sad. You can't even get past the first sentence before finding the obvious lie. There's no way in hell using bank cards would reduce costs in the places where cash is still king. Even here in the State's it is at best a break even proposition. When I implemented the credit card processing system for our non-profit, we were paying 25 cents + about 2.5% of the total transaction amount per transaction, and that was just to the processing company. I don't recall if we got charged the basic 25 cents even if the request was declined. I don't recall what the processing for the cash deposit was, but as I recall, most of the expense was in the armored pickup. For some odd reason even bankers get nervous when you drop $150K at the teller window. And yes, I do mean cash. We didn't take checks at the door because of the chances of them bouncing.

  29. nilfs2
    Childcatcher

    Not sure how it works in other countries, but here the business gets charged a comission by the bank each time a customer pays with a card or money transfer, of course the business is going to transfer that cost to the customer, making every product more expensive; some businesses offer a better price if you pay cash.

    The problem is not people, the problem are the banks, as usual.

POST COMMENT House rules

Not a member of The Register? Create a new account here.

  • Enter your comment

  • Add an icon

Anonymous cowards cannot choose their icon

Biting the hand that feeds IT © 1998–2019