back to article Next year's Windows 10 auto-upgrade is MSFT's worst idea since Vista

Microsoft's decision to push out Windows 10 upgrades as automatic Windows Update downloads is one of those ideas that sounded great in a Redmond meeting room, but will cause more problems than it solves. Right from the get-go Microsoft has made it clear that it is looking for a very fast rollout of Windows 10. The new …

  1. koswix

    Apart from the Orwellian level of surveillance, and the lack of basic features*, and the general instability of certain drivers**, I quite like 10. In a "oh god is this really the final push I need to switch to Linux full time" kind of way.

    *auto switching between headphones and speakers when I plug/unplug headphones. How on earth did they fuck that up?!

    **I'm looking at you, WHQL certified nvidia driver!

    1. Supa

      "Apart from the..."

      Heh! I couldn't help visualising the analogy of, a person content, watching the cliff hanger to their favourite tv show, while unknowingly the chip pan has set their kitchen on fire.

    2. stizzleswick
      Go

      @koswix

      "In a "oh god is this really the final push I need to switch to Linux full time" kind of way."

      I just heard from an old colleague, who is on the admin team of a science outfit that still has approx. 800 virtualised Windows machines; most on W7. He told me that this thing finally convinced their board to switch to Linux.

      1. Your alien overlord - fear me
        Linux

        Re: @koswix

        Good idea but unfortunately doesn't hit Microsoft in the wallet, unless you were about to get another 800 virt W7's.

        1. stizzleswick
          FAIL

          Re: Re: @koswix

          You didn't read what I wrote. I was not about to buy anything, nor was my former colleague's company. But Microsoft putting the pressure on for everybody to downgrade to W10 lost them a mid-sized customer with good standing in the scientific community and a certain amount of representativeness. Others will most likely follow. Extrapolate from there, if you will.

        2. CanadianMacFan

          Re: @koswix

          Actually it does. When I was a Linux system administrator for a government department I was constantly trying to get apps onto my boxes. I could have multiple applications on a box without a problem while the Windows group had to create a new virtual server for each application which had a support cost to Microsoft of a couple of hundred dollars per year.

          So once they are able to transfer their machines over to Linus then Microsoft will lose the support contract of 800 licenses. Small stuff to Microsoft but snowflakes can turn into an avalanche.

          1. a_yank_lurker Silver badge

            Re: @koswix

            My suspicion is the migration away from Windows will mostly be driven by W10 stupidities and EOL of W7. W10 is being excessively irritating and the Slurp is pouring gasoline on the fire. Most probably will sit on the sidelines until they absolutely need to replace W7. The migration of the technically literate away from Windows sets up a situation in 2 or 3 years were they are recommending migration to X. The literate would already have some experience with X and can give very good support from first hand knowledge.

            Many have suggested Linux Mint as a good alternative, which it is. As many who not used a Linux distro before gain comfort with a Linux distro they will be more confident in recommending any distro to their family and friends. I am hardcore Linux only for my kit - Arch/Antergos/Manjaro. A couple of family members dual boot between Linux Mint and Windows (mostly Linux Mint). They are sometimes more aggressive at suggesting Linux than me.

            The first defections will be relatively small numbers which probably would be overlooked by market research. Linux instead being at 2% is no running nearer 3% let say next year. But the 1% bump is primarily ex Windows users. In a few years that number could grow because they are actively switching many to Linux and suddenly there is an "unexplained and inexplicable" growth in Linux usage.

            1. Danny 14 Silver badge

              Re: @koswix

              Linux mint for the folks cause I'll be damned supporting an auto installing w10 on their aged Dell machine. I can bet their scanner wont work and probably not their printer either. So i might aswell play getting it installed in linux.

              1. geekbrit

                Re: @koswix

                Strangely enough, working with scanners and printers is usually much easier in Linux than Windows - Linux just gets the driver and uses it, there's no need for hunting for CDs or looking for malware-free driver downloads.

                1. Mark Dowling

                  Re: @koswix

                  To be fair, that's a manufacturer side decision not to install basic drivers from WU which then offer optional advanced functionality/cruft (depending on POV) from installers (glares in HP printing/scanning's direction)

                2. Mil0_Oz

                  Re: @koswix

                  Maybe for older printers, but earlier this year I bought a new Canon Pixma iP7260 and Magiea couldn't find a driver to suit, and neither could I in the list of drivers. My old Canon i865 had a driver that worked because it was 10 years old and maybe someone had written one. I know sometimes they are on the Japanese site but no luck there either.

            2. Terry 6 Silver badge

              Re: @koswix

              Yes, for me the push to using Mint is coming from the irritations of 10.

              And while the autoupdates themselves wouldn't worry me, the behaviour does.

              For a start, it seems to replace the "All apps " list that I've tidied up with the ghastly mess that Microsoft have created. I like a nice ordered (all apps) start menu, with my programmes grouped according to function in folders I created. They've made that really difficult, if not impossible. So it takes a lot of effort to make the all apps list tidy and usable.

              BUT, after some of the automatic updates I've found that the sodding things have been replaced. Even ones I've removed have reappeared.

              Also, it's my PC and if they are updating things I want to know what has been changed. But they don't f***ing tell us anymore.

              And there was at least one update that wouldn't install because the start menu had been changed. FFS, that is madness.

    3. Bob Vistakin
      Unhappy

      Fuck, do I hate Apple

      But I need a new laptop, so I've no choice now but get my first Apple product ever - a "macbook".

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Fuck, do I hate Apple

        "But I need a new laptop, so I've no choice now but get my first Apple product ever - a "macbook"."

        Why ? Just get a OS free one and put a Linux on it. Have you a special requirement ?

        1. Flatpackhamster

          Re: Fuck, do I hate Apple

          No, it's just Bob 'I hate Microsoft' Vistakin telling us all, once again, that he hates Microsoft.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Fuck, do I hate Apple

            Poor mans Eadon...

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Fuck, do I hate Apple

        If your old computer has a Windows serial number on it, you should be able to use that on any new computer. (Assuming you delete the copy on your old computer.)

        No need to install Windows 10. Just download whatever version of Windows was on your old computer, and install it on your new one.

        1. td97402

          Transferring Windows Key Codes?

          @AC Says: "If your old computer has a Windows serial number on it, you should be able to use that on any new computer. (Assuming you delete the copy on your old computer.)

          No need to install Windows 10. Just download whatever version of Windows was on your old computer, and install it on your new one."

          First, it is probably illegal to move your XP, Vista or Win 7 to a new computer by using the key code from the sticker on the old one. Here's a hint, it is why the sticker is stuck on the computer, that key code belongs to that computer.

          Second, with Win 8 and later, you don't get a key code.

          1. Pompous Git Silver badge
            Happy

            Re: Transferring Windows Key Codes?

            It's certainly against the terms of the EULA. OTOH since the sticker is on the wall wart that came with my Zenbook, then I assume I can plug it into another computer and no-one would be the wiser. You won't tell on me will you?

  2. Captain DaFt

    "Microsoft should be trying to sell the operating system on its merits, not trying to force it down people's throats. Its tactics in doing so will lose it a lot of goodwill, a fair few customers, and will probably increase the returns for computer criminals."

    I dunno, that regime seems to have done well for them since the 1980s.

  3. Supa

    Get Stuffed!

    Windows 10 "Foie gras" Service Pack 2.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Pint

      Re: Get Stuffed!

      You can always glue your bill shut.. that'll stop the bastards! This chap is even supplying free bill glue:

      https://github.com/WindowsLies/BlockWindows

      There is a highly concerted effort by M$ to harass websites that link to this. I'm tired of constantly trying to convince website admins it's not spam.

      Please repost these URLs many places on social media, blogs, etc. I'm in it for the long haul.

      1. illiad

        Re: Get Stuffed!

        erm that seems to be for win10... and other paranoid widows users... :)

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Get Stuffed!

          "Stop Windows 10 Nagging and Spying. Works with Win7-10"

        2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          Re: Get Stuffed!

          "and other paranoid widows users"

          I'm a bit concerned about your use of paranoid widows.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Get Stuffed!

        I just use the Microsoft ip list on iblocklist

        During the course of the day using Pfsense firewall using pfBlockerNG plugin reports hundreds of packets blocked from Microsoft.

  4. kwyj

    I wonder how many

    People will wake up one day to find their media centre pc has essentially been bricked......

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Devil

      Re: I wonder how many

      I wonder how many people will wake up one day to find their media centre pc has essentially been bricked

      Or worse. They finally get it working again and find there's a free U2 album on it.

      1. 080

        Re: I wonder how many

        "I wonder how many people will wake up one day to find their media centre pc has essentially been bricked"

        Is MS Media Centre better than OSMC running on a Raspberry Pi?

      2. BongoJoe

        Re: I wonder how many

        I wonder how many people will wake up one day to find their media centre pc has essentially been bricked

        Or worse. They finally get it working again and find there's a free U2 album on it.

        Or worserer still, Bono is in your front room listening to it...

        1. Pompous Git Silver badge
          Joke

          Re: I wonder how many

          "Or worserer still, Bono is in your front room listening to it..."

          ... slowly clapping his hands and saying: "Every time I clap my hands a child in Africa dies...."

          So you have to hit him up the backside of the head with a cricket bat to save the children.

    2. joed

      Re: I wonder how many

      There's media center installer for 8 and 10 floating on the Internet. I've "secured" my copy and it works really well (besides EPG that MS given up on, this requires extra work) and seems mallware-free. One has to install missing codecs on 10 (and 8) but on 10 (test box, broken already while cutting down on telemetry and tile eyesores) WMC window looks better than native one on 8 - no more retarded/gaudy wide window frames.

      Still, all my system run with updates set to manual, disabled "install recommended updates the same way..." and other precautions. Needless to say, MS made 10 desktop virtually unusable by shifting some system management files into the Metroland (that breaks while you attempt to restrain this gossiper of OSs).

      In general I could care less for Metrocrap (easy to keep it out of sight), hate telemetry (but I can manage or even block it). What I'm really afraid is digital servitude. There's no way I'm going to be singing in to my PC with MS/internet account linked to some services I don't care for and can't control or getting my "approved" software only through the Store. While we may still be able to use local account today it's clear that with next "security" update MS will convert our local account to cloud. I'm not buying into this and games (DXn is the only reason to keeps Windows box outside business settings) is too little to keep me inside MS' walled garden.

  5. Stevie Silver badge

    Bah!

    I don't understand why people are getting this, especially IT bods. I followed the advice of someone here about three months ago, added a key to my registery and away went the annoying tray icon. I've yet to see a demand that I upgrade too. It seems that simple change thwarted Microsoft's insidious plan.

    1. Martin Maloney
      Facepalm

      Re: Bah!

      I infer that you don't believe that Microsoft reads the tech press.

      Well, they do, and as soon as they read about the latest trick to thwart the “encouraged upgrade” to Windows 10, then they engineer a new way to thwart the thwart!

      1. Anonymous Coward
        FAIL

        Re: Bah!

        And they'll issue a new, not-necessarily-related KB with a new number and equally vague description.

        1. Sotorro
          Linux

          @theodore

          "And they'll issue a new, not-necessarily-related KB with a new number and equally vague description."

          That is why since GWX, I read every recommended update description, on the MS website, and toss it out of the window (read hide the update) if it contains the word "telemetry" or "Win X" anywhere in the text.

          Kind of sad though that you can no longer instal any update without going to the MS website, sometimes it's a whole list of updates depending on how long I didn't boot to Windows.

          1. Alan_Peery

            Re: @theodore

            And there's no way, as a home user,that you can make that choice once for all of the PCs in the house...

        2. Stevie Silver badge

          Re: a new, not-necessarily-related KB with a new number

          Won't matter if they do. The fix I applied does not make reference to such ephemera as knowledge base index numbers.

        3. BitDr
          Pirate

          Re: Bah!

          Microsoft is looking more and more like the malware slime that we in the trenches fight on a daily basis. I guess they couldn't build an OS that would stop 'em so they decided to joined 'em.

      2. Charles Manning

        Thwarting the thwart is a cybercrime.

        Surely that's cybercrime!

        People who have deliberately set up a way to prevent the auto upgrade from happening have clearly stated that they do not want MS to fuck around with their PC.

        If MS then engineers a way to circumvent that to enable them to do things the computer owner has not permitted, then that is "hacking" - a deliberate illegal attack on a computer - about as black hat as it gets. Doing that would make MS cybercriminals liable to punishments of up to $10k or so per PC that they attack.

        I don't think even MS's war-chest could stand up to that sort of fines.

        Bring it on baby!

    2. a_yank_lurker Silver badge

      Re: Bah!

      Those of us we read and understand the tech press probably can handle the curve balls MicroSlurp is tossing. But most will not. Mucking about in the registry is not something I like doing and it scares the bejeesus out of me when some of my friends and family have to do. It means a full reinstall after attempting to salvage their data. Good way to destroy a weekend.

      1. keithpeter
        Coat

        Re: Bah!

        "Mucking about in the registry is not something I like doing and it scares the bejeesus out of me when some of my friends and family have to do. It means a full reinstall after attempting to salvage their data. Good way to destroy a weekend."

        @ a_yank_lurker

        How about taking a clonezilla image of each of the relatives' hard drive as a precaution? Just leave the external hard drive with them for data security? Then you have a point of return given eventual upgrade Armageddon.

        Coat: I'm not actually a windows user at home usually. I leave it to the techs at work to keep the wheels turning.

        1. Shadow Systems Silver badge

          Re: Bah!

          Ask the friend or family member to go out to their local electronics megastore & purchase an external, portable, USB powered hard drive "of the largest capacity you can comfortably afford".

          Use that drive to make a clone image of their machine to, then set up an auto backup schedule to save their files to the drive.

          If something goes titsup on the machine then you'll have a System Image you can use to Restore to, plus their data files to recover.

          If you also make a directory on the drive with all the drivers the machine needs to apply from a complete clean install, then they'll be available OffLine should the need ever arise.

          Teach them what the Emergency Boot Disk is for, show them how to use it, & tell them to call you if they ever feel the need to use it so you can walk them through it & make sure they do it right.

          If you give them basic tools to help themselves & the knowledge of how to use them, then they may (*may*) develop the confidence to USE them when it hits the fan.

          I used to make a "Nuke & Pave CD/DVD" for just such occasions, updating it to include the appropriate drivers the specific machine required, various tools to use (from either a DOS prompt, Windows in Safe Mode, or as a LiveCD), and then make the clone to a hard drive for my customers. Tape the CD/DVD into the inside panel of the case, wrap the drive with the restore image on it in bubble wrap & an antistatic sleeve, & leave it in the bottom of the case with a note letting them know what it was for. If any other tech opened the case they'd find the CD/DVD with the latest drivers, antivirus, anti malware, tools, et al & a HDD with a restore image + clone of the original drive, ready & waiting to help. If *I* was that tech then I could have the system restored toot sweet & reloading all the security updates from the image's date of creation. Friends, family, & clients loved the fact that I could get them back up & running so quickly, and the fact that I told them how to do it themselves helped give them the confidence to know they COULD do it if needed.

          So take a good sized USB FlashDrive, turn it into a LiveBoot device, load it with drivers & tools, and slap a clone image of the HDD on it for restoring. You can tell them to put the USB stick somewhere safe, and use it for the same purpose as my old N&P disks + clone image on HDD. Simply plug it in, reboot, pick the USB stick from the boot menu, & follow the prompts to restore the drive to a useable state. Bonus points if it automaticly backs up their User Space to the 'Stick first & then copies it back afterwards.

          1. a_yank_lurker Silver badge

            Re: Bah!

            @Shadow Systems - Some of my family and friends have very marginal computer skills. They are doing well to use Firefox or Chrome instead of IE. Fairly simple tasks such as making a DVD with pictures on them is beyond their abilities. I am worried more about them getting shafted by Slurp. Doing what you suggest is beyond their skills.

            Remember users have skill levels ranging from minimal - barely able to turn on the computer and surf unaided - to expert knowledge of Windows registry and POSIX configuration files. Most on this site have advanced amateur to professional level skills in working with various OSes. Advanced amateur level is someone who knows how to research a problem and find the correct fix and can set up home systems without much difficulty and have a good idea how computers work.

      2. Stevie Silver badge

        Re: Mucking about in the registry is not something I like doing

        Adding a key hardly qualifies as "Mucking about in the registry".

        I reckon you downvoters should all hang your heads in shame for talking a good game but not actually manning-up when it comes to running a good defense.

        I mean, one registry key that takes a value and it's over.

        I hope you guys don't style yourselves "engineers". Because the term encompasses mucking about with engines ( in the full sense of the word) in its derivation.

        Tsk! And more tsk!

  6. Paul Shirley

    "perfectly legitimate advertising" bollox

    I didn't buy copies of windows sold as subsidised by advertising and at no point have i willingly opted into receiving it (more accurately I've not knowingly failed to opt out of it). There is no possible interpretation of my deal with Microsoft where this is "legitimate advertising" even if they stuck to just letting me know the upgrade is available.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Oooh! What a great movie that was...

      Paul Shirley: There is no possible interpretation of my deal with Microsoft...

      Darth Nadella: I am altering the deal. Pray I don't alter it any further.

      Then just wait for your first not-a-service-pack-just-a-continuous-improvement

    2. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge
      Mushroom

      Re: "perfectly legitimate advertising" bollox

      Yeah I don't know why in this New Millenium "*advertising" is automatically labeled as "perfectly legitimate". It is not and the people who come up with this sort of crap should have their jaw rearranged by Boris the Russian Jail Warden.

  7. JustNiz

    I sincerely love this move. Microsoft truly deserve recognition for being so amazing in their ability to continually find new ways to do something even more excessively moronic than everything that has gone before.

    Please Keep it up Microsoft, your continued blatant abuse of your own customers is doing FAR more for popularizing Linux on the desktop than anything the open source community could have ever achieved on its own.

    1. Ceiling Cat

      Please Keep it up Microsoft, your continued blatant abuse of your own customers is doing FAR more for popularizing Linux on the desktop than anything the open source community could have ever achieved on its own.

      Yeah, but then the open source devs do something ass-backwards and stupid, like removing fan control ability on certain models of motherboard well before all those boards are out of circulation/inoperable.

      In my case, it's a board based on the IT8772F chip, and it's also my main gaming machine. The bios-based fan control does not do anywhere near an adequate job of not cooking the CPU, and being an off-the-shelf model, the crippleware bios that it ships with can't be flashed with a better one, because there isn't one.

      Normally I wouldn't bitch, but I really want to try Kubuntu (and a few other distros) on this machine without having to virtualize it, plus I have enough linux games in my steam collection to make it worth my while. But I can't, without either : Suffering horribly form the sound of a 4000 RPM fan screaming beside my head, buying and installing an expensive fan controller module, or replacing my CPU cooler with something much beefier and praying it doesn't just bend/snap my motherboard.

      1. illiad

        No, sorry linux promoters, the *problem * with linux, (*even* the latest ubuntu!! :O )

        -- is that for 'normal' non geek peeps, it is not quite there...

        - All the 'buttons' in the wrong place (close / restore/ power, etc, etc...

        - Until *ALL* websites can do without flash, it will STILL be needed! (the strangest example is the BBC, where I once managed to get Firefox to ID as Ipad, and got a BBC video in HTML5!!!

        They seem to have noticed though, does not seem to work any more..

        That and many other reasons mean that Apple laptops will start taking over....

        1. Jess

          Until *ALL* websites can do without flash

          Or you could just use flash on them like other Linux users do.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Until *ALL* websites can do without flash

            Not if you don't intend to use Chrome, given Google has the paper that says they will continue to adapt Flash for Linux in Adobe's absence...but only for Chrome. Anyone else? You're SOL. That means, barring a breakthrough with Shumway, no other browser can do Flash on Linux without incompatibilities and open security holes.

            1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

              Re: Until *ALL* websites can do without flash

              " no other browser can do Flash on Linux without incompatibilities and open security holes."

              I'm not sure about the incompatibilities but IFAIK Adobe are OS agnostic in their supply of open security holes. However the the Mozilla browser family makes it possible to run Flash on a case-by-case basis so if you want it for some site you're reasonably confident about you can just turn it on as you need it. This is on Linux, of course, I'm not familiar with the situation on Windows.

              But for iPlayer I prefer to run get_iplayer which downloads and saves to mp4 which I can the punt over to a box connected to the big screen.

            2. Jess

              Re: Not if you don't intend to use Chrome

              Is chromium good enough? Anyway on most of my systems I use a browser without flash (and js limited) as default and a second browser for the few flash sites I trust.

        2. Deryk Barker

          1. Define "still not quite there".

          2. The buttons are in different places in different desktops (KDE, XFCE, Unity and the rest). And most DEs allow you to decide where to place them.

          3. Flash is still available for linux.

          4. You clearly don't know what you're talking about or

          5. You work for MS.

          1. Naselus

            "1. Define "still not quite there"."

            'Doesn't come pre-installed on the PC on the day they bought it or automatically pushed to them'.

            Look, we all love Linux. But Win 10 is not going to summon the much-awaited Year of Linux On the Desktop, and it's not going to cause the much-prophesied Great Migration to the Cult of Jobs either. 50% of Windows users don't give a shit about MS harvesting masses of their information, or at least not enough of a shit to see if there's any alternatives. And that 50% of Windows users is much, much higher than the number of users on all other desktop operating systems combined.

            If you're a normal human being, don't follow tech news beyond hearing about the latest iPhone, and just use a computer for light word processing and browsing and don't really understand much beyond that, then even attempting to pick between the hundred-odd Linux distros simply isn't going to happen, let alone installing one. Likewise, if you just use the computer for word processing and browsing, you're not going to go out and buy a Macbook for three times the price of your existing shitty little laptop.

            This move hasn't made MS popular, and yes, it's likely to cause a big security risk as it encourages people who don't know what they're doing to turn off security updates. But no, it's not likely to hurt MS's market share to any significant degree. Windows 10 is already on about as many desktops as OSX and all Linux distros combined, and it's only been out for three months. More and more of the home PCs I get called upon to look at are on it, and yeah, none of the users are complaining about it much. The biggest issue most have with it is the obscene number of scheduled tasks which make their computer run like crap for 20 minutes after switching it on. I've not heard a single one complaining about it phoning home, and when I tell them about it most just shrug because they don't really care.

            The Great Exodus isn't happening.

            1. This post has been deleted by its author

      2. Paul Crawford Silver badge

        @Ceiling Cat

        A while ago I had a motherboard with stupid fan speeds and ran the pwmconfig script to set it up. Might have had to set it to run on init though. Also you may have to have installed the sensors package first, as that gives you the readout of the speeds and voltages.

        Or do you mean they have broken that?

        1. Ceiling Cat

          Re: @Ceiling Cat

          @Paul Crawford

          I mean that they have broken sensors/pwmconfig so that it no longer recognizes my board as having PWM control at all. A bit of a pain, as call resources relating to the chipset appear to have been taken offline a couple of years ago.

      3. keithpeter
        Windows

        "Yeah, but then the open source devs do something ass-backwards and stupid, like removing fan control ability on certain models of motherboard well before all those boards are out of circulation/inoperable."

        @ Ceiling Cat

        Roll back the kernel version to one that has the necessary acpi driver?

  8. Ian Easson

    Nonsense

    "And just about everyone installs recommended updates automatically because Microsoft insists on it."

    Nope, they don't. Prove your accusation by citing actual facts.

    (People have options; they have choices.)

    And besides, Microsoft doesn't "insist" on it. You just made that up, because for some reason you don't like it!

    1. Mark 85 Silver badge

      Re: Nonsense

      Default for Updates is "install automatically"... I think that's the insisting part. The non-IT members of the family are calling about "what happened to Windows 7? I want it back.". Most of them never sorted out that Updates could be done any other way as they never dug into things like we do.

      1. VinceH Silver badge

        Re: Nonsense

        "Default for Updates is "install automatically"

        And then there's this oddity.

        Prompted by this discussion, I've just looked again - and Windows Update is once again saying "You're set to automatically install updates"*.

        It's going to be hard to avoid installing updates if that keeps changing. :(

        * Changes it back to automatic checking/manual installation.

        1. VinceH Silver badge
          Unhappy

          Re: Nonsense

          * Changes it back to automatic checking/manual installation.

          And checking again now, it's back to "You're set to automatically install updates."

          I've changed it back - again - but clearly I'm pissing into the wind with this.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Nonsense

            @ VinceH stop the update service, set it to disabled. When YOU want to check for updates re-enable it. When you are done DISABLE it again.

            1. VinceH Silver badge

              Re: Nonsense

              Yeah, that's what I'll do - but I want to try one last thing first:

              I've just checked, and it's still on auto check/manual update from when I made the above comment yesterday: The computer's been on since then. I'm about to shut down to head out - so I'll check it again when I get to the office and switch on. (i.e. I wonder if it's happening on boot up).

              I just need to know, damn it!

              1. VinceH Silver badge

                Re: Nonsense

                And the answer is: Yes, it's being set to auto when the machine boots.

                1. VinceH Silver badge

                  Re: Nonsense

                  Except... no it isn't. I set it back to manual, and have since rebooted twice - and it's so far remained how I set it.

                  I can only conclude that this computer is trying to mess with my head. Wibble

                  1. Anonymous Coward
                    Anonymous Coward

                    Re: Nonsense

                    "this computer" or this corporation?

                    1. VinceH Silver badge

                      Re: Nonsense

                      As it turns out... this corporation.

                      It did change back after I commented yesterday, but I think I've now got my preference - check for updates, but let me decide whether to install them - to stick.

                      The problem was everybody's favourite update: KB3038853, the Win10 nagware 'GWX' update.

                      I originally let that one install before knowing the data slurping plans, forced updates, etc., with Windows 10 - on the basis that I might at some point have opted to upgrade. (Which is obviously no longer the case).

                      It appears that GWX was periodically resetting my Windows Update settings - which is behaviour I don't think I've seen mentioned anywhere before (or at least if it's been mentioned somewhere I read, I must have missed it).

                      I killed it and buried its corpse from my system yesterday, and that seems to have done the trick.

                      Tut fucking tut, Microsoft.

    2. Grikath Silver badge

      Re: Nonsense @ Ian Easson

      - Default for windows for updates = check, download, install.

      - Changing this will immedeately give a yellow or red flag on maintenance centre ( which is a tray item..) and you have to set things to "ignore this status" to make it go away.

      - Quite a number of KB's, past and present, including all the "genuine windows" and updates to the updater itself ( including those related to the "adjustments" MS seems to need to make for Win10 ) reset your update preferences to standard, *and* reset maintenance center flags.

      If that isn't Insisting, I don't know.

    3. Mr_Pitiful

      Re: Nonsense

      My Win 7 Ult system has been running fine for over a year with any updates!

      If I want a brand new OS, I'll go and buy one!

  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    "But if you only use your computer for email, browsing online, some light word processing, and viewing movies or photographs, there's little reason for it..."

    Then why use Windows at all? There are alternatives that respect your privacy, plus no ads.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      This is probably the thing that will be Microsoft's downfall.

      Announcing that the beta would have telemetry that would monitor keystrokes and usage patterns was akin to shooting yourself in the foot with a small calibre pistol. It'll sting a bit, but nothing major.

      Then they announced that these would be permanent fixtures, along with things like WiFi sense. Akin to reaching for the shotgun.

      Forcing it onto machines because someone hasn't clicked the "Download" button, that's akin to reaching for the elephant gun.

      Yes Microsoft, we've made our decision, now hop it!

      1. Jack of Shadows Silver badge

        Actually, you could make a case for aiming higher and center-line. FWIW, this machine here, despite being the only Windows machine internet-facing, has had Windows Update turned off since Patch Tuesday in August. It does have imaging and if it should met the big bad Cryptolocker or malignant Windows Update that excapse the steelie=eye, whatever.

        I'm still not sure which way I'll be going now, Post-Microsoft. There are a Hell of a lot of extremely expensive CAD/CAM/CAE/CASE and maths/simulation/aalysis tools here that don't do non-Microsoft, but aside from those, transitioning away from Outlook is the on;y sticking point. And the cloudification of Office made that one a priority anyway.

        OpenBSD, FreeBSD, CentOS, CubeOS, and, wait for it, any scientific/engineering Linux-spin. That's the shortlist. Hardware is not an issue.

      2. Wensleydale Cheese Silver badge

        Shooting yourself in the foot - the 1991 version

        "Announcing that the beta would have telemetry that would monitor keystrokes and usage patterns was akin to shooting yourself in the foot with a small calibre pistol."

        How to Shoot Yourself In the Foot - Developer's Insight, December 1991 (approx version)

        And when you get to the end of the list, go back and read the first entry again :-)

        1. Pompous Git Silver badge

          Re: Shooting yourself in the foot - the 1991 version

          That brought back fond memories of the copy I had; torn from Dr Dobbs IIRC. I still have it somewhere, buried among many other gems.

    2. Ken Hagan Gold badge

      Re: Then why use Windows at all?

      This, so much. For that exact pattern of use, I'd have no hesitation in recommending Linux. Pick the stable branch of a conservation distro, set it up for auto-updates, create a normal user account and give it to your end-user. You need never see the machine again and they'll never have any trouble. (BTDT)

      The two things that keep Windows alive are the games market and legacy line-of-business apps where no-one has the source anymore and they weren't very well written in the first place. There's a huge number of (perhaps slightly older) home users who don't need either, and don't need a pushy OS vendor either.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Then why use Windows at all?

        Oh? What about tax time? TurboTax and TaxCut are two of the big seller around the beginning of each year? And guess what? No Linux versions. And too many people are leery to go online to do their taxes for the same reason they're leery about touchscreen voting machines.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: for the same reason they're leery about touchscreen voting machines.

          A touchscreen voting machine puts your financial transactions on the internet? Seems a bit OTT.

        2. TimeMaster T

          Re: Then why use Windows at all?

          Intuit may have thrown it's lot in with MS in the past but they are not entirely stupid. When their Enterprise level market starts asking for a non Windows version I can bet you there will be one released very quickly Intuit already has a Quickbooks database server module for Linux. All they need to do is make a client. Hells, they probable already have one in beta.

        3. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          Re: Then why use Windows at all?

          "TurboTax and TaxCut are two of the big seller around the beginning of each year?"

          Dunno about those two but there is a very simple decision tree:

          If it runs under Wine run it under Wine else run it in a VM specifically set up for that with updates off.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Then why use Windows at all?

            And if your software is designed for controlling low-level hardware and therefore requires direct hardware access (which neither WINE nor a VM can provide) AND requires Internet access?

            1. Pompous Git Silver badge

              Re: Then why use Windows at all?

              Then obviously you have no choice. Live with it!

            2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

              Re: Then why use Windows at all?

              "And if your software is designed for controlling low-level hardware and therefore requires direct hardware access (which neither WINE nor a VM can provide) AND requires Internet access?"

              Buying internet-connected smart fridges is not a good idea. And you're probably out of luck if you're trying to find a W10 driver for it.

            3. hplasm Silver badge
              Meh

              Re: Then why use Windows at all?

              "And if your software is designed for controlling low-level hardware and therefore requires direct hardware access (which neither WINE nor a VM can provide) AND requires Internet access?"

              Then the hardware will probably fail the Win 10 test (ie is more than 2-3 yrs old...)

        4. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          What about tax time?

          Intuit dropped TurboTax in my country more than a decade ago.

          And didn't they pull all their products from everywhere but the US and Canada a few years ago?

          1. Eion MacDonald

            Re: What about tax time?

            I am still using Quickbooks 2010 to do company books, ( and some charity books) but transitioning to KMyMoney to be sure of a Linux system workable when Win7 machine dies.

        5. brainout

          Re: Then why use Windows at all?

          So now take your wise rebuttal and carry it a step further, to INTEGRATE with 'Why use Windows at all?':

          If you surf with Linux -- that's the only thing you use Linux for -- then you do NOT have to abandon Windows and you do NOT have to put up with MSFT raping your existing Windows and you do NOT have to worry about hackers because they can NOT get at your windows if you are using Linux and they can NOT get at your data because it's NOT using Linux, either.

          Problem solved: use Linux online, Windows offline. Firefox and Chrome and Thunderbird all have Windows versions, all sync, so you can just surf using Linux and them also in Linux, and have no learning curve or downtime.

          Well, a little downtime, for you need to make the EXTERNAL (never internal) Linux drive/stick, first. Instructions here: http://brainout.net/frankforum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=6

          That's how I keep my seven XP machines going. So much so, I even newly installed some unused XP Pro retail OS copies I bought long ago, onto two new i5 laptops (Dell Latitude). Now, I can surf in XP, but just plug in one of the sticks I made using those instructions (that's my forum, no one can track you and I don't know how).

          So now, I've turned off Win7 updates (XP has been off for a long time now), and just surf in Linux if feeling paranoid about being hacked.

          PS: this is my own solution, it's not known elsewhere, I've been asking about it in Linux forums since 2012 and they were never helpful. I've talked about it for two years now, but only got it to really work in June (MS Office 2003 finally works in Linux, thanks to bleepingcomputer.com Linux folk). So if you've problems, now you know where to reach me to complain.

  10. Your alien overlord - fear me

    has a slight – but annoyingly noticeable – learning curve.

    If you weren't conned into the whole Win8 fiasco then the learning curve is not only steep but un-user friendly.

  11. a_yank_lurker Silver badge

    PHB

    Dilbert must work at MicroSlurp. The PHBs running Slurp are doing more to make Linux desktops, Chromebooks, and Macs much more attractive to users. The amount of grousing by the technical literati does not bode well for the future. We have the power of persuasion and can make finer tuned recommendations to friends and family than any sales person or ad can do. If we are collectively angered, irate, etc by the Slurp we can influence people to avoid W10 and possibly ditch Windows altogether.

    1. This post has been deleted by its author

  12. aregross

    Have only touched Win10 once, for about 20 minutes. My take was it's the best of Win7 and Win8.x rolled-up together.

    That being said... What The Hell would make me want 'Live Tiles' if I don't want them? Annoyance and Bother... (not to mention CPU cycles and Memory/Bandwidth hoggish) Very Tween-ish, if you're into that. Oops, sorry, Gen-Xers! (not really, heh)

    Hence, I will do everything possible to stay Win7-centric.

    Fin

    1. Havin_it
      Alert

      Ar(y)e you brothers with Michael, sole recurring star of the Tremors movie franchise? Got to know. I know you act too, but can't think of a notable role right now (soz).

      Danger: graboids!

  13. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Every few days without the option to permanently silence it isn't acceptable

    It is never acceptable with nagging popups to omit the "No, and never remind me again" option. Google are guilty of this, with their Android upgrade demands, that pop up over anything you're doing (Like driving, coming up to a tricky part of the route, and not having hands free to mash the screen to get the fucking thing that I've already denied a hundred times to go away for another couple of hours)

    1. DryBones

      Re: Every few days without the option to permanently silence it isn't acceptable

      Seriously? You're refusing OS updates... for your phone. And have done so... hundreds of times? I'm going to presume you're engaging in some serious hyperbole, because that's just absurd. I mean, the voice guidance alone works better than Garmin's entire mapping suite if you ask me. Just... swipe the notification away once and update when you arrive? It's not hard.

      As for Windows, I'm not sure what to say. I can understand the positive effects of the updated codebase, and they really have straightened most of their GUI screwups out... But the heavy handed tactics have got to be well on the way to eclipsing all of that. It may be that they've pretty much decided that they're going to have holdouts or losses to other OS no matter what they do (pretty sure there've been a good number on these boards, of course), so they're just going for maximum upgrade numbers any way they can get them.

  14. RIBrsiq

    If you're getting tired of the notifications, just disable them

    I think that there's no conspiracy, here. At most, there might be some misunderstanding and maybe some mistakes regarding what the best approach to keeping everyone up-to-date without aggravating them needlessly.

    What there *is*, however, is a KB article addressing just these concerns voiced in this discussion:

    https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/3080351

    1. Pompous Git Silver badge

      Re: If you're getting tired of the notifications, just disable them

      You are gullible aren't you? I voluntarily DL'd W10 once to one machine. MS pushed W10 once more to that machine after I reinstalled W7. The revert to W7 didn't work as advertised. MS pushed W10 twice to each of three machines, once each after I followed instructions on how to prevent this.

      The page to which you point says nothing about this issue. Nor does it address the issue that MS consumed all of my monthly mobile data allowance and half of my FW data allowance without my permission. Quite why I would need 8 copies of W10 has yet to be explained. I made a USB stick after the first and only voluntary DL. I make no doubt that had I not turned all updating off on the two remaining W7 machines that MS in their "wisdom" would be pushing even more copies of W10 for my "convenience" if that's what they want to call using up my data allowance without permission.

      As several other commentards here have remarked, Microsoft can just fuck off and die for all I care.

      FWIW I was proud to be a MS Certified Professional and Certified Solution Provider before my retirement. MS will receive absolutely no sustenance from me unless they compensate me for stealing my bandwidth and likely not even then.

      1. RIBrsiq

        Re: If you're getting tired of the notifications, just disable them

        @Pompous Git:

        I will now be promptly getting off of your lawn in a non-threatening manner, shall I...? ;-)

        I don't know what the issue you're facing might be: I have a few clients who do not want to move away from Windows 7 just yet -- after all, they just upgraded from XP, you know...? :-D -- and their machines have been behaving as they should, once the required bits have been flipped and so on. Not one machine acting up.

        All I can say is: If you were an MCP, then maybe Microsoft have a point in forcing this annoying mandatory recertification on us MCSEs...

        1. Pompous Git Silver badge

          Re: If you're getting tired of the notifications, just disable them

          "I don't know what the issue you're facing might be..."

          Read what I wrote! "using up my data allowance without permission". There's also the matter of "upgrading" my HTPC to W10 prevents it being used as a Free-to-air television since there's no Windows Media Centre available under W10. Mrs Git wants her PC to behave the same as the one she uses at work where there are no plans to change OS or MSO version since they have only just made the move from WinXP.

          A note on my lawn: Iff you ask permission and are not going to be stealing from me then likely permission would be happily and freely granted. If OTOH your purpose for wanting to stand on my lawn is so that you can more easily steal my property, then no fucking way! Do you not understand the concepts of theft and property?

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: If you're getting tired of the notifications, just disable them

            >Do you not understand the concepts of theft and property?

            Probably not... these days "theft" seems to have become another rhetorical euphemism for copyright infringement. Hardly applicable here as what you're describing actually involves clear, quantifiable, demonstrable loss. I think the fact that you're actually being unwillingly deprived of something of yours is probably causing the confusion.

            Perhaps you could try newspeak: "my intellectual property rights are being piracied"?

            1. Pompous Git Silver badge

              Re: If you're getting tired of the notifications, just disable them

              It's not me that's confused. Theft: "(criminal law) the dishonest taking of property belonging to another person with the intention of depriving the owner permanently of its possession."

              MS has permanently deprived me of several GB of data allowance purchased with my money.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: If you're getting tired of the notifications, just disable them

                Then take them to court and sue them.

                In general I am in agreement with your points of view.

                Like you, I feel that they have gone too far with this tampering of MY PC.

                I'll gladly chip in a tenner for your case in the small claims court.

                MS need to be taught a lesson. And that lesson has to start somewhere.

                I too was MS certified (plus Oracle, RedHat and IBM) in the past. No longer worth it. Far too many tick box certified experts out there who don't know a bit from a byte.

                Roll on retirement. Then I can shut the door on MS once and for good (riddance)

                1. Pompous Git Silver badge

                  Re: If you're getting tired of the notifications, just disable them

                  Many thanks for your kind offer AC; I'm tempted, but at this stage can't see very much point. True I'm out of pocket by $AU80, but small claims costs $AU111 and does not award damages. It's also true that I have with much pleasure watched a tradesman fume for 8 hours awaiting the attention of the small claims magistrate while I happily read for an upcoming history exam.

                  The fly in the ointment here is that I am about to put the farm on the market and move into a small town nearby. This requires considerable work on the world-famous House of Steel in order to generate the best possible price, building a Very Large Shed on one of our properties in town and commencing a new vegetable garden at the other. In a word, I'm busy. A year ago I would have accepted with alacrity.

                  Retirement is in general fun. But I agree with my friends who all say the same thing as I do: "How the fuck did I ever find time to do anything while I was still working?"

                  1. Ken Hagan Gold badge

                    Re: If you're getting tired of the notifications, just disable them

                    "How the fuck did I ever find time to do anything while I was still working?"

                    You didn't, which is why you've now got 40 years of odd jobs to catch up on.

                    1. Pompous Git Silver badge

                      Re: If you're getting tired of the notifications, just disable them

                      Sadly my body is now considerably more arthritic than it was 40 years ago and it takes four times as long to do anything. Which is why we are selling the farm and moving into town to a block that's one twentieth the size.

              2. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: If you're getting tired of the notifications, just disable them

                >It's not me that's confused.

                Didn't say you were... I was splaffing to you, not about you.

                :(

                1. Pompous Git Silver badge

                  Re: If you're getting tired of the notifications, just disable them

                  If I knew what "splaffing"* meant I might apologise, but I don't, so I won't. Now I am confused. And it's time to watch New Tricks and eat some lovely roast beef. 'Night.

                  * This word is not in the OED.

                  1. Anonymous Coward
                    Anonymous Coward

                    Re: If you're getting tired of the notifications, just disable them

                    Sp(l)affing is what we do here. Perhaps this will clarify (I'm not that commentard BTW).

                    Can understand your reticence in apologising for being splaffed at.

                    Night

                    ;)

                    Edit: The downvote wasn't from me

                    1. Pompous Git Silver badge
                      Pint

                      Re: Sp(l)affing

                      Please accept my apologies then. And a have a nice cold beer.

                      1. Anonymous Coward
                        Pint

                        Re: Sp(l)affing

                        Much obliged :D

    2. P. Lee Silver badge

      Re: If you're getting tired of the notifications, just disable them

      Being able to stop them isn't really the issue.

      W10 is not free. There are free "upgrades" for some products for which people paid money. MS are significantly and materially changing the product after the sale. If I bought W7, and followed MS' recommendations regarding security patches, why am I no longer running W7?

      It shows a great deal of contempt for the people who bought their products. Its bait and switch. Whether W10 is better or not is completely irrelevant.

      I actually have a couple of windows installations on one disk. I don't really use them - one has an old Steam account on it and the other is reserved for "dodgy" use and they both hang off the same license. It will be interesting to see if I can upgrade one of them to W10, just to play with it. Play being the operative word. I moved all my "production" desktop (including Steam) to Linux quite a while ago.

      I can afford to be smug because ditching windows of any version has almost zero impact on me. What can I say. I don't care for the cloud, I feel no need to have data seamlessly available to my phone and laptop but I really do object in principle to handing a great deal of power to corporates. I have nothing to hide, but I still have plenty to fear. In principle I object to making people so IT illiterate and/or ill-equipped that they can't look after themselves.

      Look what happened to Novell and DEC and Sinclair and Amstrad and Northern Rock. What happens if that happens to MS or your cloud provider? What happens if Lehman Bros happens to Facebook. Where are all your photos of your kids? Did they go from Phone to Cloud in a "post-PC" era?

      You might utterly trust corporates and government with all the intimate details of your life, but governments change. All it needs is a bit of hunger, the collapse of the currency and you'll be surprised what people will vote for. Did you dabble a bit in trade-unionism when you were young? Perhaps you had a running (email) joke about purchasing class-A substances which looks a little unfunny a few years later when your friend actually gets into dealing.

      What happens when the data retention archive is so all-knowing and so well-protected that no-one can gainsay what the government says is in it. Its just computer data. How would you know if its been updated or if someone hacked it? What if they just said they hacked it and made stuff up? Just the existence of such a thing is dangerous. It isn't a question about who has what to hide, its about who can misuse it. Nothing, not the rare act of terrorism nor ease of use warrants the sucking of so much personal data into a cloud form, where can be so abused.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: If you're getting tired of the notifications, just disable them

        Isn't "bait and switch" supposed to be a felony in "the land of the free" or is that another one of their laws which only applies to plebs?

      2. agatum

        Re: If you're getting tired of the notifications, just disable them

        "I don't care for the cloud, I feel no need to have data seamlessly available to my phone and laptop but I really do object in principle to handing a great deal of power to corporates."

        I do need to have data seamlessly available to my phone and laptop (and desktop). And I have; some call it subversion. My source code and my business and my pictures (my life) have no place in cloud where it could be taken (stolen) by third parties at any time.

  15. Pompous Git Silver badge

    An analogy for RIBrsiq

    Imagine if you will Mrs Git taking the car to drive into our nearby market town to purchase the few groceries we need given our penchant for fresh, homegrown food. Instead, the car's manufacturer insists it must go to a more distant towns on the other side of the island that doesn't sell what she needs to purchase. Can you now see the problem?

    1. Mpeler
      Pint

      Re: An analogy for RIBrsiq

      Reminds me of an old joke:

      If Microsoft made toasters...

      Every time you bought a loaf of bread, you would have to buy a toaster. You wouldn't have to take the toaster, but you'd still have to pay for it anyway.

      Toaster '95 would weigh 15000 pounds (hence requiring a reinforced steel countertop), draw enough electricity to power a small city, take up 95% of the space in your kitchen, would claim to be the first toaster that lets you control how light or dark you want your toast to be, and would secretly interrogate your other appliances to find out who made them.

      Everyone would hate Microsoft toasters, but nonetheless would buy them since most of the good bread only works with their toasters.

      Have a beer with your toast - and one for your missus, too...

  16. Buzzword

    Make your bloody minds up!

    You're the same twits who buy dodgy Chinese Android phones, then have the gall to complain two months later that they aren't being updated to Android Marshmallow. Either it's a good thing to always get the latest version, or it isn't. You can't have it both ways.

    1. Paul Crawford Silver badge

      Re: Make your bloody minds up!

      People want and expect bug-fixes, in particular for glaring security holes.

      They do not want changes that break basic functionality (e.g. removal of media centre) or require re-training to use (have you ever had to give telephone support to an elderly relative?). Android is a basket-case in this respect, but Windows has a long history of keeping those two aspects separate, until this W10 cock-down-throat push.

      1. Pompous Git Silver badge

        Re: Make your bloody minds up!

        "have you ever had to give telephone support to an elderly relative?"

        Jesus H Christ! Did you have to remind me? My stupid brother-in-law has managed to install W10 and can no longer print. He doesn't even understand what I mean when I say I can't help him with W10 because I am not running it or ever likely to. He just says: "It's a computer and you understand these things..."

        1. Paul Crawford Silver badge
          Trollface

          Re: @Pompous Git

          Try giving your brother-in-law the details of a local paid support company.

          You will be amazed at how quickly he either decides his printer is no big deal, or uses Google & trial-and-error to fix it himself.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: @Pompous Git

            Nope, you forgot the third scenario. He refuses, tries to trial-and-error it and causes physical damage that may necessitate the use of emergency or protective services. There are times people should have a license to use a computer, but since most computers do not operate on public property...

            1. Paul Crawford Silver badge

              Re: @Pompous Git

              "causes physical damage that may necessitate the use of emergency or protective services"

              Sounds like he nagged support once too often and a 'solution' was found using the printer and a jar of Vaseline...

              1. Mpeler
                Coat

                Re: @Pompous Git

                So much for UnPNP...

              2. Pompous Git Silver badge

                Re: @Pompous Git

                ROFL! It would be a brave man to do that! He's a big bugger...

          2. Pompous Git Silver badge

            Re: @Pompous Git

            He's far too tight to cough up money... to my ex-Certified Solution Provider partner for instance. I'm playing a waiting game. He lives in the city to which I go as infrequently as possible. If he has borked the machine with W10 (which is by no means certain as he is as ignorant as you can get of computer terminology), then I'm going to be off the hook. I've only used W10 for less than an hour and will never do so again. Unless someone offers me an insane amount of money and that will certainly not be my brother-in-law.

    2. Pompous Git Silver badge

      Re: Make your bloody minds up!

      My (cheap) Android phone (htc) does exactly what I want it to do. I make and receive phone calls and tether it to my ASUS Zenbook to access emails and the Interwebs. I have no idea which version it is running, nor do I care as long as it performs the duties for which I purchased it.

      PS I am not a twit.

      1. a_yank_lurker Silver badge

        Re: Make your bloody minds up!

        @Pompous Git - Your point is valid. People buy devices for specific purposes. If the devices and associated software is functional, people are satisfied. I use a cheap Android phone for phone calls, texting, and mobile surfing (mostly to check when the next bus is due and check on the weather). It does those things flawlessly and it is not connected to my bank, main email (it has its own email account), or online shopping. However I use may PC for more strenuous computing activities and activities which require more security.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Make your bloody minds up!

      You're the same twits who buy dodgy Chinese Android phones, then have the gall to complain two months later that they aren't being updated to Android Marshmallow. Either it's a good thing to always get the latest version, or it isn't. You can't have it both ways.

      Phone companies seem to be a world unto their own, they seemingly have forgotten that they aren't actually in the phone business but the personal computer business, and that the latter requires ongoing software maintenance.

      I'd like security updates for my devices. If that means I have to either do it myself, or pay someone to do it, then so be it, but I'd like the option. Sometimes the device is bought because it offers features that some of the more updated devices doesn't offer and so compromises have to be made. In my case, that means being stuck with Android 4.1. At least it isn't something running Java2 Micro edition, which was the other alternative.

      No, the Android world is not a shining example of what should happen, if anything, it's a shining example of abandonware. A company releases a version of Android for their device, then dusts their hands and says "Job done!" and walks away. It's the exact opposite of what Microsoft is proposing.

      I think the IT world would like something in between, a say on the matter. It does not, nor should not, have to be a binary choice.

  17. Lostintranslation

    I have three ageing PC's, none of which, according to Microsoft, are capable of being upgraded to Windows 10 due to hardware or driver issues.

    Will Microsoft stop reminding me that they should be upgraded though? Like heck they will.

    1. Ken Hagan Gold badge

      Lucky you. On the other hand ... pity the poor saps who have PCs that according to Microsoft *can* be upgraded, and who then attempt the upgrade only to discover that they couldn't and are now in a state where the upgrade didn't result in a usable system and so they are unable to navigate to the place where they click to roll back to the previous version.

      Or, as mentioned already by several people, those whose PCs can be upgraded but they won't have driver support for their scanner or printer or ... (Good news for hardware vendors, obviously. They get the sales and Microsoft get the blame, despite the fact that most printer and scanner drivers these days are trivial wrappers around a USB driver stack that is provided almost entirely by Microsoft.)

  18. OH

    The recommended update will still require the user to accept or decline before installing

    Even when it is a recommended update you still get the chance to accept or decline it before it installs and if you do accept it then you can still roll back.

    "Early next year, we expect to be re-categorizing Windows 10 as a “Recommended Update”. Depending upon your Windows Update settings, this may cause the upgrade process to automatically initiate on your device. Before the upgrade changes the OS of your device, you will be clearly prompted to choose whether or not to continue. And of course, if you choose to upgrade (our recommendation!), then you will have 31 days to roll back to your previous Windows version if you don’t love it."

    You can also be sure that the approach for enterprises is different. I have never seen a single prompt for Win10 upgrade on my large corporation managed Windows 7 Dell PC.

    How do the people who are concerned with the Windows 10 telemetry manage to exist on the internet? Are they using chrome? Google search? gmail? Facebook? iCloud and iMessage? Siri? Do they read the EULAs? Do they trust those other companies more than MS?

    EULA for icloud and therefore iMessage (which means all text messages you sent to other iPhone users if you didn't turn off the default setting)...

    "Apple reserves the right to take steps Apple believes are reasonably necessary or appropriate to enforce and/or verify compliance with any part of this Agreement. You acknowledge and agree that Apple may, without liability to you, access, use, preserve and/or disclose your Account information and Content to law enforcement authorities, government officials, and/or a third party, as Apple believes is reasonably necessary or appropriate, if legally required to do so or if Apple has a good faith belief that such access, use, disclosure, or preservation is reasonably necessary to: (a) comply with legal process or request; (b) enforce this Agreement, including investigation of any potential violation thereof; (c) detect, prevent or otherwise address security, fraud or technical issues; or (d) protect the rights, property or safety of Apple, its users, a third party, or the public as required or permitted by law."

    1. Paul Shirley

      Re: The recommended update will still require the user to accept or decline before installing

      I want aware of firefox even being able to monitor my desktop searches, application launches, system settings, used data or much of anything I don't volunteer, let alone report then to the mothership. Neither does my mail software. The malware known as win10 however...

      1. OH

        Re: The recommended update will still require the user to accept or decline before installing

        Firefox has telemetry

        1. Chemist

          Re: The recommended update will still require the user to accept or decline before installing

          "Firefox has telemetry"

          Only if you want it to

          1. Paul Shirley

            Re: The recommended update will still require the user to accept or decline before installing

            "Firefox has telemetry"

            ...that actually turns off when you tell it to. Unlike the hour I wasted last night trying to find out why Win10 was burning an entire core (and keeping the rest of the CPU turbo clocked) handling CEIP related crap, on a machine with CEIP disabled and I'm fairly certain uninstalled. Win10 had magically 'forgotten' to uninstall InvAgent.dll and left more triggers to launch it than I could find.

            And if this happens to you: what finally killed it was taking ownership of system32\invagent.dll and renaming it. You can kill the obvious Task Scheduler hooks but it wasn't enough to kill this bastard.

    2. Pompous Git Silver badge

      Re: The recommended update will still require the user to accept or decline before installing

      This is a lie. Every version of Windows from 95 onward commenced to install by transferring the relevant files from the installation media to the local hard disk, or more recently SSD. W10 commences after this step. That is, a significant portion of the installation has already taken place without the user's permission.

      And again, WTF has what Apple do got to do with this?

      1. King Jack
        Holmes

        Re: The recommended update will still require the user to accept or decline before installing

        WTF has what Apple do got to do with this?

        I.Q. challenged people justify things as OK because someone else does it too or to a worse degree. So getting mugged and stabbed is good because another mugger would have shot you, so it's all good.

        M$ is fine because Apple and Google exist and do something similar.

        1. illiad

          Re: The recommended update will still require the user to accept or decline before installing

          I am sure that any Apple OS upgrade does NOT *downgrade* the quality of GUI graphics or ease of configuration... Apple users please verify... :)

          1. Pompous Git Silver badge

            Re: The recommended update will still require the user to accept or decline before installing

            I have a friend with a Macbook who decided to upgrade the OS to the latest and greatest. What he hadn't realised is that the DL was considerably greater than his monthly data allowance. The install died part the way through. So, he decided to reinstall the version of OS X that came with the machine. That failed to even start I believe. The machine has been in the hands of the Geniuses at our local Genius Bar for five months now...

    3. Kobus Botes

      Re: The recommended update will still require the user to accept or decline before installing

      Nope. It could be that they are staggering these updates, for in our environment I have seen the whole gamut of options, from no GWX nag icon through to it being an "optional" update that comes pre-selected and which will install once you reboot.

      As far as we know only one machine has updated itself on a reboot without any user intervention at all, but I have caught a couple of machines that would have installed X on the next reboot.

      Ditto for CEIP - Microsoft ignores your decision NOT to participate and installs all those telemetry and other spyware updates.

      Ditto again for ignoring your decision to hide KB3038853; on some machines I have had to hide it up to four times (setting up brand new W7 machines - installing updates takes up to a week: OK, if I were to babysit it permanently it would probably take three full days. I still cannot understand how it can take up to six hours to FIND updates, let alone install. I remember one particular machine that started installing updates late on a Friday afternoon (just after 5) and, come Monday morning, was at 86%. On those machines I usually abandon the job and reboot the machine - the subsequent update goes a bit faster then. We also do not use a domain and I update before installing anything else or create users - so that problem with multiple logins to a domain taking up to six hours logging on does not apply.) before it would relent and accept my choice. I just don't know how long that will last, though, before it will override my choice.

      I sometimes wonder if Microsoft had not perhaps made an undertaking to $Advertiser(s) that they would have an installed base of Windows 10 of X hundred million by Y months after release of 10, and now realise that they are falling woefully behind schedule, with possible penalties amounting to $$$$$$ plenty, hence their agressive push to get 10 on as many PC's as possible.

      1. CFWhitman

        Re: The recommended update will still require the user to accept or decline before installing

        As to the long periods of time it takes Windows 7 to update: I have found that for some reason if you exceed 200 updates by very much in one update installation session, the machine hangs indefinetely (it seems like it usually happens in the 210s), and you have to cancel the rest of the updates. Sometimes the machine has to be cold booted, and I always wonder if it will come back up right if that happens (it has always come back up OK so far, but I haven't let this happen very many times). If before you let the updates install you whittle the number down to 200 or below, then the update installation is much less likely to hang. The updates will still take several hours, but they will not hang indefinitely. Of course, then you have to do another batch, which may well be over 200 again (depending on how many more updates have been "found" by the time you run it again). I've never seen in excess of 200 updates more than twice on the same machine.

        On my own machines I run Linux, where updates have been much less problematic.

  19. Elmer Phud Silver badge

    Nope

    "Nowadays, if you boot up a Windows 7 or 8 system you'll see a variety of popups encouraging you to upgrade – roughly every few days,"

    Still not seen one -- I'm waiting for the SP update (fall edition) or later.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Nope

      Is your system actually online?

    2. Jason Bloomberg Silver badge

      Re: Nope

      I thought I had escaped the nagging but eventually it started, along with W10 appearing in the list of upgrades already ticked for installation. Sneaky bastards. Now it's as bad as getting nuisance phone calls.

      I don't have a beef with Microsoft but it's royally fucking me off.

      So, way to go Microsoft, you are turning even your supporters against you, proving you are the bunch of wankers your detractors said you were.

  20. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Is your system actually online?

    .. or even switched on? :)

  21. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    "But if you only use your computer for email, browsing online, some light word processing, and viewing movies or photographs, there's little reason for it, and good reasons not to upgrade"

    Little reason for windows full stop if those are the requirements, I'd much rather be running a lighter Linux variety in that case.

  22. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    A big Thank You to Microsoft

    Dear Microsoft,

    THANK YOU for so generously providing Windows 10 to end users. For free, automatic, it's fantastic. Please keep doing this. You are absolutely right: people didn't know what was good for them.

    Until you demonstrated what was not.

    Please accept our deepest felt thanks.

    Kindest regards,

    All Linux distros, and Apple.

  23. HKmk23
    Facepalm

    Time to look at another opsys?

    I live in a French village of 200 inhabitants, so you can imagine the ratio of Brits....I have already had to rebuild two laptops back to Windows 7 from 10 "upgrades"........so when and if this starts I think I will just hide somewhere...............

    1. regadpellagru

      Re: Time to look at another opsys?

      "I live in a French village of 200 inhabitants, so you can imagine the ratio of Brits....I have already had to rebuild two laptops back to Windows 7 from 10 "upgrades"........so when and if this starts I think I will just hide somewhere..............."

      Same, here. I've already told village+dogs & cats that I DON'T DO W10 and W8.

      Everyone is now aware of this weird obsession of mine about 8 and 10, so no-one bothers me ...

    2. Fred Flintstone Gold badge

      Re: Time to look at another opsys?

      I live in a French village of 200 inhabitants, so you can imagine the ratio of Brits....I have already had to rebuild two laptops back to Windows 7 from 10 "upgrades"........so when and if this starts I think I will just hide somewhere...............

      On the plus side, they will pardon your French when it happens :)

      1. Mpeler
        Joke

        Re: Time to look at another opsys? French Hospitality (OK, British, but)

        An American tourist is visiting London. As he walks, he feels the urge to pee. He searches and searches, but does not find a toilet. Ever more desperate, he enters a tiny street, looks for a narrow and darker place, beside a tall wall and starts to unzip his pants. Suddenly from behind somebody taps his shoulder. He turns around and sees a policeman there.

        "Sorry sir," says the policeman, "it is forbidden to urinate in public places."

        The American apologizes, tells him that he had no luck in finding a toilet and just couldn't hold on anymore.

        "Follow me, I will help you," says the policeman. He guides the tourist towards a gate in the wall and shows him the way inside. The tourist is amazed, as he sees himself in a gorgeous garden, full of flowers, arrangements, bushes and trees. The policeman leads him to one of the trees and says, "You can pee here without any problem."

        The American does the job, and after he finishes, asks the policeman, "Tell me, is this what is called British hospitality?"

        "No," answers the Policeman, "we call this the French Embassy!"

  24. tin 2

    Woah woah woah woah woah!

    "perfectly legitimate advertising"

    I paid good money for an operating system. Not an advertising billboard.

    Money for operating system. Features added surreptitiously later to advertise another product is absolutely NOT part of the deal. Decidedly, definitely NOT legitimate.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Woah woah woah woah woah!

      I paid good too much money for an operating system.

      Fixed it for you.

  25. Version 1.0 Silver badge

    Still waiting for stability

    I have no problem with upgrading but it would be nice if Outlook didn't crash from time to time. When they get that straight I'll consider upgrading.

  26. Mark Simon

    110 million PCs can’t be wrong?

    I love that line — how may PCs haven’t “upgraded”? Presumably they must be more correct?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: 110 million PCs can’t be wrong?

      Even if the screw up rate were 1% that's 1.1 million PC's now with issues that didn't have them before, At 0.1% that's still 110,000. I suspect at least a 1% screw up is accurate, would be nice to know the exact figures.

      1. a_yank_lurker Silver badge

        Re: 110 million PCs can’t be wrong?

        Slurp probably does not know the true screw up rate and definitely will not publish it anyway. The error rate should include total number of attempted installs, successful installs, failed attempts, rollbacks (counting a failures), and complete removals for Linux. About the only number one can be confident of is the absolute number of successful installs where W10 installed and actually worked well enough to activate - this is probably the number MS is tooting. The other numbers are unknown and I suspect MS will not strenuously try to find them out. Some have reported several attempts and failures at installing, others have reported successful installation but after a few days either reverted to the previous version or installed Linux instead (mostly the former I suspect).

        My navel, which is not known for accuracy, estimates the overall initial installation failure is about 10% with many not being counted anywhere. Also, my navel guesses there is about same rate of uninstalls. If it is correct, the total number of active W10 installs is about 100M not 110M as reported by MS with total install attempt of about 120 to 125M. Some of the failed attempts may have failed when the W10 installer detected some hardware issue and automatically aborted the install. I count them as failures but would Slurp count them.

        For Slurp, the only meaningful number is the total number of active W10 installs not the total that have ever been installed. I suspect from above the actual number of active installs is about 10% below what is reported by the PR flacks/failures/liars.

        1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          Re: 110 million PCs can’t be wrong?

          " I suspect MS will not strenuously try to find them out"

          s/not strenuously/strenuously not/

  27. J J Carter Silver badge
    Trollface

    The word 'Microsoft'

    Love how it triggers such a hysterical response from posters, it's better than shouting 'fire' in a theatre!

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: The word 'Microsoft'

      Or a more accurate description might be to shout "Microsoft" when you witness some poor soul about to step in dog muck on the pavement.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: The word 'Microsoft'

        ...or as you're being dragged into the bushes...

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: The word 'Microsoft'

          ...or as you're being dragged into the bushes...

          That is actually one of the best analogies as that implies abuse of power and lack of consent.

          Congrats.

          1. brainout

            Re: The word 'Microsoft'

            Yeah, he said it better than I did. I shoulda read the comments first before making any.

    2. Martin Maloney
      Coat

      Re: The word 'Microsoft'

      I've always wanted to shout "Theatre" in a firehouse.

  28. Wade Burchette

    All this has convinced me Win10 is bad for you

    Do you really think a publicly-traded multi-billion dollar corporation is giving away an expensive piece of software because they felt sorry for Windows 8? Why is such a corporation practically demanding you to take such an expensive program from them? Just because something doesn't cost money does not mean it is free. How is Microsoft making money on Windows 10 if they are using dirty tricks to make you install it without cost?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: All this has convinced me Win10 is bad for you

      >Do you really think a publicly-traded multi-billion dollar corporation is giving away an expensive piece of software because they felt sorry for Windows 8?

      If that's the motivation, then why are they trying so hard to ram it down the throats of people comfortably installed on Win *7*? Eh?

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: All this has convinced me Win10 is bad for you

      How is Microsoft making money on Windows 10 if they are using dirty tricks to make you install it without cost?

      As the educational establishment learned despite many, many warning from people who have seen MS operate over the years, "free" when offered by Microsoft is simply code for "deferred clawback". In schools the game was the so-called "educational discount", which later lived up to its name by being very educational about the meaning of "lock in strategy". "Free" in the context of Win 10 seems to be similar to that other Internet piece os BS, "free download", which is a euphemism for "needs a license fee to actually work".

      It is actually not even a question what is going on - this "free" install is simply stage 1 of a strategy by which MS will seek to hit up its users on an annual basis so it is no longer deprived of income when it accidentally releases something that is good enough to prevent people from giving them more money for an upgrade (Windows XP springs to mind, and this may also go some way to explain the generally shoddy quality of the stuff leaving Redmond).

      Stage 2 will be when they think they have converted enough victims, and they will only offer updates to subscribers, and those who leave MS to rummage through their data by hosting it on Azure.

      Stage 3 will be a re-activation of the license malarky where people who have PCs but not run Windows have to prove they don't run something illegal, and OEMs will again be forced to exclusively install Windows or pay license fees (well, the few that are left, that's why MS is making its own hardware, desperately trying to be Apple as well).

      Stage 4 is where they do what they have wanted to do from day 1: in a move again very familiar to in education, MS will now raise the prices. Or "tax", as it will be called by then. By that time, the conditions in the license that nobody ever reads will now permit MS to not only browse your computer for hardware they do not approve of (read: have not received a cut of the profit of), but also scan any other connected resources and take a peek through your webcam if you are not doing anything else they can make money of, and by default give them the IP for it. If Google can give itself perpetual rights to your materials*, MS will feel certain it can go one better.

      It's not hard to guess, really. They do BS quite well, but subtle is a bit beyond them. Not that I expect this to work, but they'll go through the motions anyway.

      * just read their Terms & Conditions properly.

    3. Chika
      FAIL

      Re: All this has convinced me Win10 is bad for you

      Do you really think a publicly-traded multi-billion dollar corporation is giving away an expensive piece of software because they felt sorry for Windows 8?

      Not really. My own belief isn't that they were sorry for unleashing it but were more sorry for the lack of success and, more importantly, the effect on their market position and their bank balance.

      Why is such a corporation practically demanding you to take such an expensive program from them?

      Because they can. The loss leading aspect is countered by the fact that users are being used as an unpaid beta testing work force to try to avoid the disasters that gave us Windows 8, Windows Vista and Windows Me. In some ways this is little different to the way Fedora and openSUSE are used to test RHEL and SLES but these Linux distros don't use telemetry and don't try to monetise users with forced advertising.

      I suspect that the actual proper release, whenever that comes (probably when the "free" period expires next July) will possibly see the forced update regime change, but I also suspect that other changes, including licensing changes, could see W10 become an even bigger problem.

      Just because something doesn't cost money does not mean it is free. How is Microsoft making money on Windows 10 if they are using dirty tricks to make you install it without cost?

      Probably the money is coming from monetising users and laying off all those beta testers that once were used to make systems like Windows 7. To my mind, Microsoft still haven't beaten this.

      1. a_yank_lurker Silver badge

        Re: All this has convinced me Win10 is bad for you

        @Chika - "In some ways this is little different to the way Fedora and openSUSE are used to test RHEL and SLES" is true to an extent. Fedora and openSUSE are stable distros in their own right not beta releases. However they are both are closer to the bleeding edge than the enterprise versions. So Red Hat and SUSE work with the respective Fedora and openSUSE communities fairly closely.

        1. Sir Runcible Spoon Silver badge
          WTF?

          Why?

          W10 = WAP (Windows Advertising Platform)

  29. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Only yourselves to blame

    IT folk have been moaning for decades about how users disable or never install updates, are always outdated security, and have no idea why users never install antivirus. And you largely blamed Microsoft themselves for making it possible to deny updates or for having shit security.

    Microsoft finally listened, then made you redundant by taking all those little jobs out of your hands, and now you're pissed.

    Linux is not ready for the mainstream, and probably never will be unless all the various nerds 'in charge' of it stop having beard fights and actually agree to make it useable to the general public without a need for sacrificial chickens and chalk pentangles.

    The ONLY issues I have with Windows 10, is the telemetry stuff - which is so easily blocked it's laughable, and the SOMEWHAT annoying pre-installed games and apps. But those only annoyed me because I am usually annoyed by anything I don't use that takes up hard drive space. Took me a good solid hour to kill those.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Only yourselves to blame

      The ONLY issues I have with Windows 10, is the telemetry stuff - which is so easily blocked it's laughable

      Oh, you mean the stuff they WANTED you to find? Ever heard of the term "false sense of security"? :)

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Only yourselves to blame

        Ever heard of actually going looking instead of just relying on google for answers?

    2. illiad

      Re: Only yourselves to blame

      you dont have issue with the totally crappy GUI graphics? Or are you a win8 minimalist??

      also you dont see it is just 'windows mobile' hacked to work on desktop PCs?? or you are not a serious business user, just 'pretend' with a tablet?? (I will bet you have not spent ALL day typing a document using a touch screen, hunching over to see it ...)

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Only yourselves to blame

        I have a tablet. It runs android and is for netflix. I cannot see any other use for a tablet.

        Crappy GUI graphics? What does that even mean? You think it's too GPU heavy? Or you don't like tiles? I don't have tiles. In fact, I don't have any metro style apps at all. Windows Store is gone, Cortana has had her kneecaps broken and stuck in the basement. Did you know if you remove the System permission from a folder Windows cannot overwrite or reinstall into it?

        If you're using a tablet for actual work, go buy a laptop.

    3. Paul Crawford Silver badge

      Re: Only yourselves to blame

      (1) "how users disable or never install updates" Maybe because they break things, e.g. removing media centre?

      (2) "no idea why users never install antivirus" Maybe because AV is mostly crap and an on-going fee or incessant nagging? (OK must at least give MS a vote for providing a low overhead free choice here).

      (3) "Microsoft finally listened, then made you redundant by taking all those little jobs out of your hands" Good for that! So never again will I have to support some friend/relative who has, yet again, trashed their system and/or got it infected?

      (4) "Linux is not ready...sacrificial chickens and chalk pentangles" Good to see you have recent experience of both Windows and Linux in terms of ease of installing and sorting out problems. Never had to registry edit I presume? Never has to get a driver from some web site and side-step the scams, bloatware (looking at you printer manufacturers, WTF does a driver need to be > 100MB for?) and shitty toolbars that come with the territory?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Only yourselves to blame

        "(1) "how users disable or never install updates" Maybe because they break things, e.g. removing media centre?"

        Well, what's it gonna be? Lose Media Center or get pwned and turned into a zombie bot? No middle option because standing still means being open to exploits.

        (2) "no idea why users never install antivirus" Maybe because AV is mostly crap and an on-going fee or incessant nagging? (OK must at least give MS a vote for providing a low overhead free choice here).

        Tried ClamAV? It's GPL.

        (3) "Microsoft finally listened, then made you redundant by taking all those little jobs out of your hands" Good for that! So never again will I have to support some friend/relative who has, yet again, trashed their system and/or got it infected?

        For people who's idea of a computer is "can't program the clock on the VTR," they'll turn to you no matter what. If you start ignoring them, they and the rest of relatives will have some nasty things in store come the holidays. And if you have a relative with some resources, you may find yourself cut from their will. And yes, I've seen this happen for lesser evils.

        (4) "Linux is not ready...sacrificial chickens and chalk pentangles" Good to see you have recent experience of both Windows and Linux in terms of ease of installing and sorting out problems. Never had to registry edit I presume? Never has to get a driver from some web site and side-step the scams, bloatware (looking at you printer manufacturers, WTF does a driver need to be > 100MB for?) and shitty toolbars that come with the territory?

        How about a device that simply doesn't work on Linux, period? Or one where there are two or three drivers, but none of them work. One's too old and doesn't work properly (too slow) and the other two are too new and flat out refuse to work. And worst off, it's the GPU chip this is supposed to be supporting, which for a laptop means it's a flat bust. Same thing happened no matter what the distro, so it's back to Windows (which at least works).

        Meanwhile, on another machine, it spontaneously resets on a mainstream GPU, not even under heavy, and most of my Steam games are Windows-ONLY and WINE-Incompatible. So it's stuck on Windows, too. Believe me, I've tried and I've tried, and I've tried, but it just doesn't work for me.

        1. Stoneshop Silver badge
          Mushroom

          Re: Only yourselves to blame

          Well, what's it gonna be? Lose Media Center or get pwned and turned into a zombie bot? No middle option because standing still means being open to exploits.

          So, W10 will never get pwn3d? Because that's what you're saying.

          In reply I'm saying that you're a fucking imbecile if you actually believe that.

        2. CFWhitman

          Re: Only yourselves to blame

          "How about a device that simply doesn't work on Linux, period?"

          How about a device that doesn't work in Windows, period? We have those now. I have a printer that doesn't have an identifiable correctly working driver for any version of Windows newer than XP, which is no longer supported. It works well for my Linux machines with it installed on my Linux server. In fact, I can now get it to work for a Windows machine on my network by having Linux serve it up as a Postscript printer (even though the printer itself doesn't understand Postscript) and setting Windows to print to it with a generic Postscript printer driver. This isn't the only piece of hardware I've seen that was obsoleted on Windows but still works on Linux.

          "Or one where there are two or three drivers, but none of them work. One's too old and doesn't work properly (too slow) and the other two are too new and flat out refuse to work. And worst off, it's the GPU chip this is supposed to be supporting, which for a laptop means it's a flat bust. Same thing happened no matter what the distro, so it's back to Windows (which at least works)."

          I've installed Linux on a lot of different hardware (dozens of different machines), and I have yet to encounter a GPU that fits that description. However, I will talk about the closest I've come. I have a Thinkpad from 2003 with Intel graphics. This particular graphics processor is universally considered to be buggy, which is why there have been problems running a GUI on it with various Linux distributions. I used to have to run an old distribution to get it to work with little problem (seems like I had an Ubuntu variation from 2009 or 2010 at one point), although it still acted a bit flaky if you dropped out of X-Window. Now, I just have to have one that's new enough to have the driver updated with a workaround (it's a workaround because the hardware itself has the issue, so you can't really fix it with software). Of course with Linux you sometimes get fixes for hardware that's ten years old.

          Windows XP was the pre-install on that system, but after updating it, it would run very slowly with the 256 MB of RAM that were in it when it was given to me. Recently memory for it became so cheap that I maxxed it out at 1 GB just for kicks. Of course, by that time, Windows XP was unsupported. The Linux distribution (Salix OS 14.1 Fluxbox in this case because it's so lightweight) ran OK with the original RAM. The biggest thing I've noticed from the upgrade is that more Web pages will now load without the browser hanging or crashing.

          Of course, if you have a bunch of Windows games, then you'll like likely have to run Windows to make them all work (especially if they're newer games). I don't have as much time for games as I once did, but I generally stick to Linux compatible ones, and they usually work well on my desktop machine.

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Only yourselves to blame

      >The ONLY issues I have with Windows 10, is the telemetry stuff - which is so easily blocked it's laughable...

      "Laughable"??!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!one

      You check all those disparate settings are as you want them on every boot and on an hourly(?) schedule, do you RICHTO? Or have you written a script for that? Care to share it? Or at least explain how it scans the system for the creation of additional new "settings" which default to "ooh yes please M$" and amount to "fuck me up the arse and knick my wallet please MSFT"

      Or are you saying that Windows 10 is only safe to use offline? If that's your solution, you should probably check it with Redmond. They'll have a little surprise for you.

    5. Anonymous Coward
      WTF?

      Re: Only yourselves to blame...

      ...going out dressed like that. Call that a skirt? What did you expect to happen?

      Only yourselves to blame.

    6. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Only yourselves to blame

      IT folk have been moaning for decades about how users disable or never install updates, are always outdated security, and have no idea why users never install antivirus. And you largely blamed Microsoft themselves for making it possible to deny updates or for having shit security.

      Correction: most of the complaints are about the root cause: shoddy security in Windows, and the almost eternal need to update. El Reg had a thread about modems a few days ago back - do you know that the volume of patches is now so high you would never be able to keep up if using a modem? The rest are side effects, but the root cause is the absence of decent security. If MS would spend a quarter of what it spends on lobbying and trolling forums such as this (yes, we noticed, thanks, as I said, subtlety isn't really in their DNA) it could actually deliver, but then, who would upgrade?

      Microsoft finally listened

      No, it didn't. It noticed it wasn't getting the sales it needs to pay the executives and pretend to investors it isn't still slowly sinking, so it tried something that it would not have DARED otherwise. I don't know about you, but the risk they took crowbarring Win10 into machines *seriously* reeks of desperation, as does their blatant data gathering.

      As far as I can see, MS follows a monkey strategy: see who makes money, and then try to ape what those companies do but without paying any attention to the fundamentals which make it possible to make that profit, hence the constant failure to turn those ideas into anything but a negative ROI.

      MS isn't making me redundant: now customers are switching away from it I can finally get some *work* done. Or do you think it's fun babysitting patches and rolling back their cockups?

      1. a_yank_lurker Silver badge

        Re: Only yourselves to blame

        @AC "As far as I can see, MS follows a monkey strategy: see who makes money, and then try to ape what those companies do but without paying any attention to the fundamentals which make it possible to make that profit, hence the constant failure to turn those ideas into anything but a negative ROI."

        This is come problem in business were the CEO substitutes making hard decisions about what the company should do in the future with aping another company. Slurp has been a software house since day 1. Either they remain a software house which means they need to make sure the software they are producing is relevant to users at this time or they become something else. They core competency allegedly is software not hardware or advertising. They currently have a strong position with businesses and enterprises but they are risking it with various W10 idiocies.

        Apple has been a hardware manufacturer from the start. Their forays into software have been to provide users with enough software to make purchasing the hardware attractive. Otherwise, Apple does not seem to show much interest in software or in the software users install.

        Google is an advertising agency. They make their money delivering eyeballs to advertisers. Their forays into software, hardware, and services are methods to get my eyeballs in front of ads. They need to make their services and software desirable to users so they will be used. Their hardware forays are an interesting departure from this model. I think they see a hardware niche that Slurp and Apple are ignoring for different reasons and decided to grab it.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Only yourselves to blame

          Their core competency allegedly is software not hardware or advertising. They currently have a strong position with businesses and enterprises but they are risking it with various W10 idiocies.

          I must admit I have trouble finding evidence that their core competency is software, to me it appears their only remaining competence is milking a monopoly position by hook or by crook, and even that isn't going so well. The problem with dishonest operating techniques such as lock in and, well, let's not beat around the bush and call it blackmail or OEMs is that such approaches create resentment that will come back to haunt you when your position weakens, and that is happening right now.

          They damaged the Windows upgrade train by delivering such a disastrous code to the market with Windows Vista that that could not be labelled anything but alpha quality, so that train derailed there and then, and they have never quite managed to get that back on the rails again.

          They damaged the Office franchise by making the UI so bad that especially long time users (you know, the people that by now have moved into decision making positions) had to fight to get work done, and they allowed that ribbon thing to even infest previously good software like Visio. This is in my opinion the point where the market for Apple opened up because Apple has always focused on ease of use, and the simplicity and usability of OSX is stunning if you come from Windows (you realise this less if you have just been using OSX all the time) - where Apple still struggles is Enterprise scale deployment and management support.

          What put the final nail into the Office franchise was OpenDocument. MS saw nothing wrong with simply bribing MSOOXML into becoming an ISO standard, but it appears governments have miraculously managed to look beyond the tickbox - I suspect having to save money has finally kicked some sense into people, and OpenDocument finally became the standard it should have been for about a decade now.

          The result is that monopolists suddenly have to play with others and go back to innovating and listening to customers. As the Win10 debacle and the massive astro turfing shows, they're not doing so well with that. To me it shows just how desperate MS management actually is behind all the brave words and spin. Yes, they still book lots of license fees but any strategist worth his money (that's only a few, actually) can see that the ship has been sinking for quite some time and they have not even started to plug the holes, let alone starting to pump water back out.

          Time is running out - at some point, shareholders will actually start to notice this too.

    7. Roo
      Windows

      Re: Only yourselves to blame

      Is that you Matty B. Rantt ?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Only yourselves to blame

        Is that you Matty B. Rantt ?

        It may help if you indicate to which post you are referring.

        If it is to the one immediately preceding your question, the answer is no. That would have been easy to work out as the line of argumentation is actually rational and coherent, the spelling is correct, capital letters only appear where required and the post is ad hominem free..

        1. Roo
          Windows

          Re: Only yourselves to blame

          "the post is ad hominem free.."

          Strictly speaking yes, but your post did include another of Matty B Rant's signatures: Sneering at a large number of people, many of whom are unknown to you who have a valid (and validated) complaint.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Only yourselves to blame

            Strictly speaking yes, but your post did include another of Matty B Rant's signatures: Sneering at a large number of people, many of whom are unknown to you who have a valid (and validated) complaint.

            .. in which case there is either a misunderstanding or misinterpretation of what I wrote or I expressed myself incorrectly, so I would be obliged if you could point out the offending section. As a normal human I'm not exactly infallible, but I am capable of learning. I just have a bit of a dark streak that I have to stop from winding people up if they present themselves as an obvious target, but I never claim to be perfect. Unless that winds someone up, of course :).

    8. This post has been deleted by its author

    9. Stoneshop Silver badge
      Devil

      Re: Only yourselves to blame

      IT folk have been moaning for decades about how users disable or never install updates, are always outdated security, and have no idea why users never install antivirus. And you largely blamed Microsoft themselves for making it possible to deny updates or for having shit security.

      Having shit security has everything to do with running Microsoft in the first place. Although I hear reports that they've finally gotten security sussed, simply by disabling the network drivers.

  30. J J Carter Silver badge
    Trollface

    Luser error

    My Nan said we could only upgrade to Windows 10 over her dead body. So we put her on the Liverpool care Pathway, didn't we Cortana?

    1. A Ghost
      WTF?

      Re: Luser error

      To be fair to your nan, she did say that about win7 as well, so I'm assuming you had to dig her up for that one. Then again, it's not like anyone on the Liverpool care Pathway would notice anyway is it...

      Liverpool care Pathway don't make Operating Systems, but if they did - they'd probably be just like Microsoft - getting your beloved one to brick it as soon as possible. No comebacks.

      "I fucking loved that laptop man..."

  31. Haku

    5 words I never want to hear from my computer-illiterate friends:

    "I've upgraded to Windows 10"

    1. brainout

      Re: 5 words I never want to hear from my computer-illiterate friends:

      Six Words I Will Say to anyone who's changed to Windows 10:

      "Stay the HELL away from me."

  32. john devoy

    The problem with windows 10 is Microsoft are taking over your pc, they're controlling when to push updates onto it without telling anyone what they do; This added to microsofts sudden belief they have the right to know everything you do with your pc is taking it too far.

  33. A Ghost
    Mushroom

    Microsoft...

    ... are a fucking menace. Datarape gone mad.

    This is the final straw for me. I'm going to clone my windows 7 boxen and unplug them from the net forever. I had to do that with WinXP, and it's worked out fine. I have a Gold standard image to which I can revert if any problems come up. I don't tend to install new software, unless I really have to, and of course, if it is compatible with XP (which most is).

    I run audio software so can not rely on Linux, and to be honest, it's all a bit of a relief. This is the impetus I need to take it further and get serious with these motherfuckers. Camel's back and all that.

    I have a massive amount of paid for software and I only use maybe 30 percent of it regularly, I certainly don't need more when I have software I bought years ago that I have still not even downloaded. I was a total crack head, then I went and bought every single thing I ever used. Thousands I have spent.

    I will use my Linux Mint Debian Edition for surfing and mail (as I already have a dual boot) and this is another relief too as recently the internet has stopped working. No, really, it has. For example, the Indy just went to that bloated web api that the Guardian went to, that the BBC is now using. It's designed for mobile OS and is a total resource hog. In fact, the internet just does not work properly at all whichever browser I use on windows 7. It works fine on Linux.

    I also like to use Linux for web development, preferring the tools available. I can still program my Drupal of wtf off line of course on an offline version of Windows. So that ain't a problem either. I have avoided everything Microsoft so far because of eventualities like this. I got bitten by using Visual J++ for web development for Java applets all those years ago. Did they work on Netscape Navigator - NO. But they did work on IE. That's because Microsoft embraced and extended and tried to extinguish. That's the trouble with free tools like that (or OS) they are not free.

    My folks are still happy using XP on a machine that is crawling along now on the net. I have warned them of the dangers, but they refuse to face up to the risk they are taking and have no intention of ever buying a new machine again by the looks of it. They did buy a laptop with win8 on it, but it is so slow it hardly works at all. I have actually paid for anti-virus software for them out of my own pocket because they refuse to do so. Still, that is their problem.

    So thankyou for forcing the issue Microsoft. You know you will get away with it as well. Yes, there will be a revolution against you in the tech world, but you're all about the lusers now aren't you baby? And god knows you got enough of them hooked on your Redmond Crack/Crap.

    I backed you up before in arguments where I was even called a Microsoft fanboy for merely trying to explain that I have much software that just will not run on OS other than theirs. I extolled the virtues of the PC in the holy wars that were Mac/Pc. But no more. It's a new day.

    The whole securities/permission/UAC stuff is just a joke anyway. No one uses it. The developers don't make allowances for people running non-admin accounts - they simply just do not test for it. And over 90 percent of ALL users that use audio software run as full admin anyway, so they don't need to. What's more, a larger percentage of them actually connect to the net as well. Wide open and taking none of the (debated) advantages of the extra security built into the system.

    I was wondering why one of my favourite VST manufacturers - Linplug - is discontinuing a major part of its product line. They made the point that soon that software may stop working with new OS upgrades. I know that we had a hell of a time sorting out stuff because of the Admin rights issue. In the end they just said "We advise you not to buy the software". Great attitude. I bought the software anyway. I wonder how much this recent debacle has forced their hand on this matter?

    Btw, at the risk of being called a spammer, Linplug.com are selling off software that previously cost hundreds of pounds for just over a tenner and today happens to be the last day they will sell or support it, so if you want some top of the line drum machines or synthesizers for next to no scratch, you know what to do.

    Just keep in mind, that some of that software won't work properly if you use certain built in security features on win7, and there is no promise it will work with the next windows update also.

    I side with the smaller developers here. They are restricted by team size, time and budget as to what they can realistically come up with on a rolling release cycle. Microsoft don't have those restrictions, but just like the big bad bully on the playground they are, they just can not resist rubbing the smaller kids noses into the shit. The smaller devs took a big hit with regard to development for x64 systems, with the vocal minority demanding it and threatening not to buy any more software if they didn't take the time to factor in the extra compatibility. The majority of the rest of us have suffered as we have no need for x64 (even on an x64 OS like win7).

    That's another argument for another day, but now they have this to contend with as well. How the hell are they supposed to be able to keep up?

    I also heard a rumour that ASIO drivers will not work on win X, and I have to check that out, but nothing surprises me anymore at this point. My WinXP box is actually faster and more streamlined to use than win7 for audio anyway. In fact, win7 is a piss poor OS in itself. It's got major design faults with regard to UI design and is more bloated than a butchers dog. But it's compatible and it works well in other areas.

    I could have written a rant. But these are just some of my feelings on the subject so far.

    And oh yeah, fuck you Microsoft!

    Fuck you for the very last time. You soon will be out of my life completely (effectively) and I won't have to put up with your crap anymore. This co-dependent relationship is just not working out for us anymore, is it?

    Oh, and it's not me, it's you!

    1. Mpeler

      Re: Microsoft...

      Look up Protected Media Path. It's probably another reason that M$ killed XP, and why 7 is not so good for Audio. Neither is Vista. The really ugly changes appeared in Vista, and people forgot about them, or just didn't notice since they skipped "twisted sister" and went straight to Win 7.....

      1. A Ghost

        Re: Microsoft...

        Thanks for that tip. I will check it out. Doesn't seem to be something I have come across before, even though I'm a professional, I'm not an expert.

        This is why I love el Reg.

  34. NormDP

    Cram it down my Vista; not a perfectly good Windows 7.

  35. herman Silver badge

    Well, there is a utility by O&O software called 'ShutUp10', that can be used to, well, shut W10 up. Any half competent search engine will find it.

    1. A Ghost

      All well and good...

      ... but what happens when it becomes integrated into security updates and the only option is to turn off automatic updates itself? Genuine question, as they said that is what they would be doing from next year (read a few months time).

      I suppose it would be possible, but any company blocking this would be on the back foot with MS being one step ahead and wise to their tricks. They'll devote a whole dev team to 'unblocking the blockers', but they won't commit resources into developing a basic mouse/window gui paradigm that works as well as it does on Linux.

      Microsoft are just an extension of the government now. Paid shills. This proves it once and for all.

      There's a war on to find out what is going on in your mind, which the computer is just an extension of.

      There's also a campaign to let you know that they will not stop in that fight, and that they will do it anyway and there ain't a damn thing you can do about it.

      They are trying to break us. Behaviour modification at its finest. I wouldn't put it past them to resort to physical violence at this point. I really wouldn't.

      Yeah, I know my views are a bit way out, but I've pretty much passed the point of rational argument with all of this by now.

      If nothing else, it is going to be a major chore to check through every single bloody KB released, seeing as they don't tell you what they are (you have to go to the website itself). I can't see many IT bods who work day in day out with computers, and probably also use computers for fun and social, taking the time to do this mind-numbing soul destroying task. It'll be easier just to bite the bullet and switch to Linux, using Virtual Machines for XP and win7 (where driver compatibility is not an issue).

      I see that the force is strong as well in the online papers with regard to how wonderful and fantabulous this upgrade is and you just must simply get it darling. If MS spent as much time paying developers to write decent software as they did paid shills astroturfing on the net, we might not all be 10 Million man hours down by now.

      Time for blood pressure meds..

      1. Mpeler
        Mushroom

        Re: All well and good...

        That's what the Internet of Things is all about, and those horrible not-so-smart meters. With analysis tools, and the data from the meters, they can even tell what channel you're watching, let alone that you're watching the TV. This is NOT a tin-foil-hat statement, there's a slideset on it from a security conference floating around.

        Add that to "targeted advertising", NFC, all the crapware on mobiles, all the CCTV and other cameras, and the bug-ered "smart" TVs, and someone (TLAs) can follow you anywhere. And you don't even have to blow in their ear (if you're a "Laugh-In" fan)...

        No thanks, M$, you can sink into the sea of insolent sewage you've filled for yourself. Good riddance.

  36. Uplink

    Grandma is half savvy?

    I've already had a call from an elderly relative asking about this and she's not keen, as she's only just learned how to use Windows 8 in the last few years and doesn't fancy redoing all that.

    Fair point...

    When I explained the situation to her the response was as you'd expect – she's turning automatic updates off to block the download. She says she'll do the job manually, [...]

    Wait, she found the part of the OS where settings live? And she figured out how to turn updates off and run them manually all by herself? And she knows how to review updates when she pulls them in manually?

    But she can't be arsed to "learn" Windows 10. What's there to learn anyway? Maybe the start menu and where the settings for updates have been moved. That "search for the thing I want to run" thing in the taskbar too complicated? And there's always "tablet mode" she can try.

    1. A Ghost
      Coat

      Re: Grandma is half savvy?

      At least she's not half dead like JJ Carter's Nan!

    2. Fred Flintstone Gold badge

      Re: Grandma is half savvy?

      Wait, she found the part of the OS where settings live? And she figured out how to turn updates off and run them manually all by herself? And she knows how to review updates when she pulls them in manually?

      But she can't be arsed to "learn" Windows 10.

      You're avoiding the key question: why would she have to, if she is happy with whatever version of Windows she is now using?

      What gives MS the right to make that choice for her?

    3. illiad

      Re: Grandma is half savvy?

      GAWD sakes, man.... A lot of 'elderly relatives' actually worked in computers or other tech!!! that 'doddering 80 yr old' may have been a physics tech or naval engineer, legs not working well, but brain still at full steam!!... :)

      If they are savvy enough, they WILL know many parts of win7 and do not want change!

      Whats to learn?

      - where they have moved various settings, to a new *pointless* location??

      - get used to the 'new' icons, they are 'retro' 1995 ones... >:(

  37. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    With the 5th coming up

    Maybe someone can fix this sorry mess by blowing Redmond sky high, this time with 40 megatons of instant sunshine, a conveniently diverted asteroid, failing that total existence failure by LHC induced dark matter flux inversion.

    We can hope...

  38. Palpy

    My goodness gracious.

    I wasn't going to comment -- I mean, this is quite a Windows thing, and I'm mostly not a Windows thing anymore. But I guess I'll pipe up. A commentard just can't have too many downvotes.

    Windows is a good OS, but at my home it's an offline, air-gapped OS. I can and probably will continue to take advantage of a few Windows programs without letting Microsoft (very far) into my personal walled garden. Perhaps like any predator, Microsoft is just doing what its carnivorous reflexes tell it to do. In that case, I don't hate the shark. It's not personal. But I very much prefer not to get bitten.

    Of course, my Windows-offline-only strategy would not be reasonable if I used Windows-only games, or if I needed to use Windows to work online, or if the devices I use (various cameras, PCM recorder, printer) didn't work well with Linux. (They do work, seamlessly.)

    But for those of the hoi polloi who can do so, I heartily recommend stepping out of the Windows pool. It looks like there may be more blood in the water, and the similes are getting more and more forced.

    1. Stoneshop Silver badge
      Headmaster

      Re: My goodness gracious.

      But for those of the hoi polloi who can do so, I heartily recommend stepping out of the Windows pool

      It seems you accidentally hit the 'l' when moving your fingers from the 'o' to the period.

  39. tabman

    Honest Question

    Since it seems to be pretty much accepted that Microsoft (and others) all have agreements with NSA and other three initial US Gov Agencies, maybe we should give them credit for being open and honest about slurping, recording and forwarding your info straight into the "take" rather than waiting for the info to be sucked up an NSA / GCHQ fibre trap ;-)

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Honest Question

      Except it isn't "pretty much accepted" There's no honesty from the rabid shark. MS is still pretending it's all just "commercial" slurping and won't ever be shared with their political (puppet)masters. Honest! You can trust us - we're MSFT.

      All your data are belong to U.S.

  40. swschrad

    hackers are more trustworthy than Microsoft now

    what, did the Softies hire a bunch of old Sony IT guys? Win10 is a rootkit

  41. martinusher Silver badge

    Nooooooooo!!!!!!

    I 'upgraded' one PC to help support people and to tell you the truth, I with I hadn't. It had W7 on before -- nothing spectacular but harmless. W10 has significant problems. Quite apart from not being able to cope with older games' video drivers (not a biggie for me) it seems to have screwed up the audio support, Bluetooth is MiA and its got ongoing problems with the start menu.

    I've even been forced to crank an old W2K system into life to get onto the 'net to look for answers. Its that bad (it got locked into 'I've crashed when I logged you on' loop). When you see the two side by side you realize how far we've fallen -- W2K wasn't particularly pretty, it had its quirks but it WORKED. W7 also worked, so if you've got a copy, keep it. If you need to buy a new PC, go for a Mac or Linux.

    (Incidentally the 'victim' PC is a fairly new Lenovo -- medium grade processor, 8GBytes memory, adequate disk and so on.)

    1. a_yank_lurker Silver badge

      Re: Nooooooooo!!!!!!

      The Lenovo sounds like a typical, midrange laptop. According to Slurp, it should run W10 fine. As far as hardware being MIA, I have seen were drivers were not provided for device with the latest Windows release. Actually I have an old Bluetooth dongle from ~2005 that worked on XP but never worked on W7 (I could never find a driver) but it worked perfectly a couple of weeks ago on my fully patched Arch/Antergos/Manjaro box.

  42. A Ghost
    Windows

    -- EL REG IS FINALLY COMING ALIVE --

    IT'S ALIVE i TELL YOU. (Shit caps still on, soz).

    I knew this glorious day would come, that the night would be ours, in the small hours, of man!

    It's Xmas I'm looking forward to. Just think, all those machines ripe for the plucking, students home from uni doing a degree in 'multimedia computing' and searching for cracks. Poor mom and pops think their sons/daughters (eh equality works both ways you know) are perverts, when they just got a redirect from one of those link aggregators, searching for Adobe Photoshop. Yeah right. Like we haven't all used that one before.

    And still the question will be asked after the Turkey dinner: "So, if you weren't searching for mental midgets in leather, just how the hell did I go to bed last night with frigging win7 on my desktop, and today I wake up with Windows big box XXX?, Mmm... eh...?".

    Hilarity is about to ensue, in a big way. I'd particularly like a crack addled Dabsy to live report on the issue as the clocks tick past 12. Something I'd pay for, in fact.

    Meet you all here tomorrow same time, same place. Don't tell anyone.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      WTF?

      Re: -- EL REG IS FINALLY COMING ALIVE --

      AMFM? That you?

    2. Fred Flintstone Gold badge
      Thumb Up

      Re: -- EL REG IS FINALLY COMING ALIVE --

      Hahaha, brilliant.

      Upvote from me :).

    3. Havin_it
      Pint

      Re: -- EL REG IS FINALLY COMING ALIVE --

      >I'd particularly like a crack addled Dabsy to live report on the issue as the clocks tick past 12. Something I'd pay for, in fact.

      Very clever, Dabbsy. Seriously, how many job-security 'bots are you running in here? If you laid off the Doncaster Coke a wee bit you'd maybe not need to bother!

  43. Pompous Git Silver badge

    Cinnamon Mint so far...

    I suspect for the foreseeable future, it's always going to be easy for many to find an excuse not to make the move to Linux. My main machine is used to run Adobe InDesign, CorelDRAW! Suite and Painter from time to time and there are no acceptable substitutes for Linux. That said, I'm now spending most of my time using Linux and run the graphics apps in a VM (Oracle VirtualBox).

    The only real fly in the ointment is printing. My colour laser printer (Lexmark 543DN) returns a "waste toner receptacle full" message for each print job. It took 6 hours to get to that stage, but at least I can print. Unlike Windows, you can't specify a job to print using just the black toner from the app's print dialog box. You have to visit the printer and change defaults. This is tedious and I suspect I would buy a mono laser if I became at all busy.

    I approached Libre Office with some trepidation. I have none too fond memories of Star Office rendering a document unreadable. But it certainly looks like it will do the job. And I can always install MSO in the VM if need be.

    Civ V running under steam reveals the shortcomings of OpenGL. On Windows it runs fine at the highest graphic detail at 2560 by 1440 pixels. The native Linux versions can only run with low and medium terrain/water/fog of war detail and low for rival empire leaders. However, the strategy remains the same and that's the main reason for playing the game. I can live with it.

    Most of the little apps I use run either under Wine, or have native versions; Beyond Compare and PasswordSafe for example.

    All in all I'm a happy camper and hopeful that this MS madness will result in some first class apps being written for, or ported to Linux. The last time I tried this I was a beta tester for Adobe FrameMaker (a very decent word processor/page layout app) so it would be possible for Adobe to finish that though I'm not going to hold my breath.

    So, stop making excuses and have a play with a bootable Linux distro DVD. Be brave ;-)

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Cinnamon Mint so far...

      I approached Libre Office with some trepidation

      Originally I started using it about 6 years ago (OpenOffice before that), with MS Office only ever used to handle customer files (not an Outlook fan as I work on multiple OS, so I use Thunderbird + Lightning).

      I then upgraded my laptop and lo and behold, MS Office wanted its license codes again, codes that are probably in a box on the other side of the continent after my move. So instead of wasting money on buying something I had already bought once but which refused to work I switched to LibreOffice completely, and all is well. Must send them a contribution, though (fair is fair).

      I rather like not having to worry about any software license and have the same UI regardless of what OS I am using, so the chances of me going back to MS Office (or even spending any money on it) are somewhere between slim and non-existent. Ditto for my family. Ditto for my companies. Ditto for quite a few customers who have picked this up (plenty of CTOs we deal with). I can now even return files to UK gov if they are in MS Office format because it is no longer the standard - Open Document is.

      Life is good :).

      1. Pompous Git Silver badge

        Re: Cinnamon Mint so far...

        In truth my disquiet with MS dates back over a year. I "needed" a second MS Office license and really wanted to purchase another copy of Office 2010. Unfortunately, it had been replaced by Office 2013 so I purchased that instead. I installed it on my main machine expecting Word to behave much as it always had, only to discover that one of my favourite features had been crippled.

        I use Autocorrect a lot; not just to correct typos, but to insert blocks of text. When I type xnsa* Autocorrect replaces it with "The National Association for Sustainable Agriculture, Australia defines sustainable agriculture as..." It can save a lot of typing. MS in their wisdom removed the option Add to Autocorrect from the right-click context menu "because it had become too cluttered".

        I reinstalled Office 2010 and attempted to install Office 2013 on my ASUS Zenbook. Not allowed! Apparently you must wait 60 days between installs! So for a while it was back to Office 2003. Office 2013 sits gathering dust on a shelf. The Zenbook is now running Cinnamon Mint 17.2, Libre Office and since I can access my emails through my server's web interface, I haven't bothered with an email client though I use Thunderbird on my desktop machine.

        Happily Libre Office has the required context menu and also like MS (but unlike most word processors) uses the Australian Macquarie English Dictionary. So yes, life is good; very good indeed :-)

        * The blocks of text entries in Autocorrect all have four letters; first letter is "x" because there are very few words starting with "x" and then a three letter acronym that's easy to remember.

        1. Pompous Git Silver badge

          AutoCorrect in Libre Office

          While Libre Office supports Add to AutoCorrect in the context menu, adding blocks of text to an AutoCorrect entry doesn't. It appears to, but the entry isn't saved.

          1. Fred Flintstone Gold badge

            Re: AutoCorrect in Libre Office

            While Libre Office supports Add to AutoCorrect in the context menu, adding blocks of text to an AutoCorrect entry doesn't. It appears to, but the entry isn't saved.

            That's because it's slightly non-obvious, I originally had that problem too. Here is how you do it (and where you probably went wrong in the same way I did):

            1) Highlight the block of text you want to turn into an AutoCorrect option

            2) Tools - AutoCorrect, choose "Replace" tab - you will see the block already filled in on the right

            3) Enter the shortcut you want to use

            4) (I think this is what you missed) - hit the "New" button next to the entry first, and only THEN..

            5) hit OK to close the dialogue

            Incidentally, AutoCorrect is impressively powerful: it can insert practically anything. If you highlight a piece of text with an image and a table in it, for instance, all you have to do is to untick the "text only" box in AutoCorrect when you create the entry and it will play ALL of it back when you type the shortcut.

            1. Pompous Git Silver badge
              Pint

              Re: AutoCorrect in Libre Office

              Thanks Fred. Have an upvote and a coldie :-)

      2. Eion MacDonald

        Re: Cinnamon Mint so far...

        MS Office. I run a number of machines (6 ~7, some in different locations, 3 on Win 7, others older MS OSs dual boot to a Linix OS), I am only on Win 7 as I have to have a 'reliable' method of download of MS Outlook attachments used by clients. . However the MS Outlook attachment problem is only partly solved in Thunderbird!

        All machines run Thunderbird, and LibeOffice, while two run MS Office (one with Outlook).

        Any help on MS Outlook attachements? I have one solution but not great.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Cinnamon Mint so far...

          This any use to you?...

          https://addons.mozilla.org/en-GB/thunderbird/addon/lookout/

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Cinnamon Mint so far...

          I am only on Win 7 as I have to have a 'reliable' method of download of MS Outlook attachments used by clients

          Oh, it's not just Outlook. You should see what a mess Apple Mail makes of images. Someone at Apple decided that all we would ever need were inline images, and done in a way that ensures that reading it by any other email client results in a tiny, useless image you have to save before you can view it at a decent scale. There is *no* way to turn an image into an attachment other than installing a plugin that some guy has written. Just when I thought that only Microsoft totally ignored RFCs..

          Hence me using Thunderbird (with that Outlook plugin).

    2. a_yank_lurker Silver badge

      Re: Cinnamon Mint so far...

      Some of your issues are due to software vendors not supplying a Linux version. Some is due to people writing for Windows only - I suspect many games suffer from this. Hardware issues with Linux seem backwards with newer peripherals not always working while older devices working flawlessly. The Linux device driver model is apparently unchanged so once a good driver is available it will always work.

      Sometimes I have found peripheral vendors will supply a Linux driver but you may need to hunt it done. Once I found Epsom drivers on their European site but they were never mentioned on their US site. For a Brother printer, I just went their US site and found it. Once I knew the filename I found it in the Arch repositories and installed from their.

      1. Stoneshop Silver badge

        Re: Cinnamon Mint so far...

        For a Brother printer, I just went their US site and found it.

        To be eligible for being a printer in this household, it must satisfy two requirements: it speaks lpr, and groks postscript. THREE Three requirements: it speaks lpr, it groks postscript and connects via wired ethernet. No, four, .. amongst the requirements are that it speaks lpr, groks postscript, connects via wired ethernet and consumes toner, not ink.

        Cardinal Fang, fetch the Brother printer!

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Cinnamon Mint so far...

        For a Brother printer, I just went their US site and found it

        We have declared Brother Persona Printers Non Grata, because whoever writes their printer software must write viruses in their spare time if the removal process is anything to judge it by. I have in some decades of IT never come across such a pile of heaving, stinking crud, and in that evaluation I include Windows Me. Even on OSX you need to dig in various corners to weed it all out as it certainly doesn't come out cleanly, and this was for a new A3 format inkjet.

        Never again.

        One of the smaller subs now has an Epson A3 inkjet, and that thing is so good we will probably order some more, also because it has no problem with non-original inks in that it detects the cartridges as non-original (and tells you about it), but works regardless. Nice bit of engineering.

        1. Havin_it
          IT Angle

          @AC Re: Cinnamon Mint so far...

          >Epson A3 inkjet

          That a recent WorkForce range one? *WANT*. My place only needs A4, but the WF we got 2 years ago is a great bit of kit, ink goes on for yooooonks (and even the OEM carts are ludicrously good value). Not sullied it with jazz carts yet, but good to know that won't be a problem. An A3 at home would be tempting, but not looked into Linux drivers yet. Have you?

  44. DougS Silver badge

    Getting people to turn off automatic updates

    I don't think Microsoft will mind, if malware hits those Windows 7/8 machines because updates are turned off to avoid Windows 10 they'll slow down to the point where people think "oh my PC is slow, it means I need a new one" and then they'll be paying for Windows 10 (via the OEM who has to buy the license)

    So they win either way.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Getting people to turn off automatic updates

      Unless they have a clued-up relative or friend with a Linux LiveCD…

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Getting people to turn off automatic updates

        Or decide to head for their nearest Fruity store.

        Who wins (either way)? most certainly not MS and for that we can all raise a cheer or two on this very foggy morning.

  45. David 138

    Linux

    Will anyone ever switch to Linux. every update to anything in windows or osx gets this same reaction and no one ever switches because Linux is a waste of space for most people. the learning curve is vertical and no software supports it. That combined with the fact that their community is mostly unhelpful prick's who look down on everyone because they use a free office alternative to create files no one can open. Yes we all love free stuff but most things are free for a reason.

    1. Boris the Cockroach Silver badge
      Linux

      Re: Linux

      Quote "Yes we all love free stuff but most things are free for a reason."

      Which is the most eloquent reason for staying the hell away from win10 as I've ever heard

      I have to use win7, win8 and win 10 at work, the OS that gives the least trouble is win7, win8 can be a bit of a problem, but win 10... how can such a high end laptop be so goddamn slow? and the CAD software we have sometimes just locks up on there (the other 2 laptops work fine)

      The biggest linux related problem I've found is getting my HP officejet prunter to work, but on centos/mint and even a crummy fedora 14 installation, the HP drivers have worked fine.

      So I can see no reason now why there should'nt be a mass migration to Linux recommended by every IT pro, because that free win10 OS you've just installed will have a cost added to it somewhere.....

    2. Chemist

      Re: Linux

      " the learning curve is vertical and no software supports it"

      Firefox

      Thunderbird

      Google Earth

      VLC

      LibreOffice

      Virtualbox

      Skype

      and those are just some of the cross-platform ones.

      Darktable - RAW photo developer

      Kdenlive - video editor

      Inkscape - vector graphics

    3. david bates

      Re: Linux

      Um....I moved my dad (who is 76) and my uncle (who is late 60's) from XP to Mint Mate 12 months ago. NO support calls. They both took to it no problems at all.

      I've had to work on the machines ONCE when my dads video card died. I moved his HD from a Pentium 4 ATI powered box to a Phenom nVidia box. Mint took an extra minute or so to boot...and just worked. The when I swapped it back into his fixed box it sorted itself out again.

      Lets see Windows of any flavour do that .

    4. W. Anderson

      Re: Linux

      I suspect commenter David136 is one of those persons who would praise Microsoft for selling Dog Poop as an upgrade accessoy for Windows computers.

      No amount of "reality" and "facts" will sink into the skull of this moron, even with documented and official announcements from more than 20 countries in the European Union (EU), as well as declarations from China, India, Russia, many countries in Central and South America and even Afica, on their success and ongoing swith to Linux "from" Windows.

      Ony the American Microsoft worshiping die-hards - mostly called idiot dupes - are left dribbling in their puke from crashes, security breaches of Windows. Good lck with that.

    5. Richard Plinston Silver badge

      Re: Linux

      > the learning curve is vertical

      Yes, some people do find learning to be a brick wall. If you find that to be the case than do stick with what you can cope with.

      > their community is mostly unhelpful prick's who look down on everyone

      I can quite see why that has been your experience.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Coffee/keyboard

        Re: Linux

        "I can quite see why that has been your experience."

  46. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I'm sad I'm no longer using Windows..

    There would have been so much fun I could have had with an unwanted Win 10 upgrade. I would have bounced Microsoft through any criminal prosecution I could think of for abusing my resources, attempting to halt my beneficial use of the computer (although they could argue I'd given that up years ago by simply installing ANY Microsoft software), hacking (unauthorised upgrade attempt) - the works.

    As far as I can see there is really enough meat on the bone for prosecution, but I'm not a lawyer. Whatever you agree to in their T&Cs, it does not absolve MS from having to follow the law (you know, the thing they pay attention to if it's going to cost them more in prosecution than they make breaking it).

  47. Mike Pellatt

    110 million PCs can't be wrong

    That's priceless. Absolutely priceless.

    The phrase "Eat shit. 100 billion flies can't be wrong" instantly entered the front of my consciousness. Who else did that happen to ???

    Clearly not the Microsoft markerdroids

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Thumb Up

      Re: 110 million PCs can't be wrong

      It didn't enter my consciousness for some reason, but well said. Have an upvote.

  48. Aurelian2
    Go

    Jumping ship any day now

    I'm almost ready to cut over.

    I now have a Linux Mint 17.2 laptop which will be the sole PC connected to the Internet.

    The LAN will be unplugged so that the Windows 7 machines dotted around the house, including the Windows 7 Pro 64 rig and all its VMs, will be protected from Windows Update.

    I think Mint 17.2 is very good. Installing it is easy and the Cinnamon GUI is both visually attractive and familiar.

    There's a very helpful YouTube video by "Frank's Helpdesk" which tours the system and shows you how to configure it to your liking after installation. Frank's laconic delivery is very informative, and there's no techie scriptwriting involved. It's perfect for newbies such as I.

    1. Pascal Monett Silver badge

      Starting my own inspection tour soon

      Win 1 0 has been the proverbial twig on the camel's back for me.

      I am almost done getting the unused tower filled with the necessary components - all I need is a SATA DVD reader - and I will be set to install Mint and find out if I can get it working for me.

      I've told everyone who asks me for PC help to stay away from Win 1 0 and that I am trialling Linux for the future. They are aware that I will not be supporting Win 1 0 and why.

      When I am confident that I understand how it works and can get it set up to get stuff done easily, then I will be going around demonstrating it to said people.

      What must happen will happen, but I'm certain of one thing : Win 7 is the last Microsoft OS I will ever use at home.

      1. Sir Runcible Spoon Silver badge
        Megaphone

        Re: Starting my own inspection tour soon

        Necessity is the mother of invention.

        Anyone out there still saying 'but I need Windows to run <whatever>' should make the switch, and THEN worry about getting their stuff done.

        You'll probably find a ton of stuff in the process that you never even knew existed - it's happening to me, so don't let Windows hold you back...just DO IT!

  49. This post has been deleted by its author

  50. Mikel

    Upgrade or crash

    Our W7 boxes are starting to bluescreen and crash apps now that ran fine before. I suspect this will continue to worsen as they grow more desperate.

  51. Snar

    Fuck off Redmond

    I had my fill of Windows and it shitness years ago. I migrated to Ubuntu and am still running 12.04 because it works and works well for me. I can do all I want to do with Linux and it's fast. My AV machine is an iMac and things work nicely. My work laptop runs Windows 7 and it's dog shit slow.

    I'd rather have a cervical smear rather that choose Windows as an operating system.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Fuck off Redmond

      You should have posted this in reply to David 138.

  52. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    GOODNESS!

    Talk about your potty mouths. From personal experience, I've upgraded two devices (a laptop and a tower) from 8.1 to 10 and encountered no real issues (and these were three and two months ago, respectively). Any beef you've encountered on Win X, I've encountered on Linux: bad drivers for mainstream devices, random crashes, wasted paper, spotty software support, and basically enough to make me give up trying. So, basically, we'll have to agree to disagree. Our firsthand experiences seem to be completely different worlds.

    As for Big Brother, you gotta figure if they don't get you on the OS (and BTW, I was able to turn all that stuff off, and neither devices has done a spontaneous restart which would be part and parcel with a systems update), they'll just get you elsewhere, probably at the ISP or via a ubiquitous camera out on the public street. I'm surprised no one's to date declared the modern world's a bastard, pulled up stakes, given up computing of any kind, and gone up a mountain somewhere, the way some Luddites are venting...

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: GOODNESS!

      At this rate, this may be my next move.

      I think there's a limit to how close Big Brother will be tolerated. Watching our Internet traffic is one thing, but watching keystrokes, you know, what's being typed before it has a chance to be encrypted, is quite another.

      If you cannot tell the difference between ciphertext and cleartext, I don't think anyone can help you.

    2. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge

      Re: GOODNESS!

      Microsoft astroturfing has seen better days.

      1. Pompous Git Silver badge

        Re: GOODNESS!

        "Microsoft astroturfing has seen better days."

        Could it be that the competent astroturfers are now all running Linux :-)

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Terminator

          Re: GOODNESS!

          "Microsoft astroturfing has seen better days."

          Could it be that the competent astroturfers are now all running Linux :-)

          Nope. Sadly, that's not it. This article was published at the beginning of a weekend.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: GOODNESS!

        Who's astroturfing? This is my pure, honest-to-goodness, firsthand experience with both Linux and Windows X. Sorry if I don't conform to the norms, but that's how it is for me. Linux gives me more headaches than Windows, and most of my software has no Linux counterparts (and no, most of them don't work on WINE or a VM--the latter due to memory and GPU demands). And this is nothing against FOSS, as I personally use LO5, Firefox, and Thunderbird, but Linux? Not until they fix the GPU issues and Valve gets its act together and realized many games won't be available on Linux without outside help (and it's not like they've done it before; consider DOOM on Steam--it uses DOSBox).

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: GOODNESS!

        Microsoft astroturfing has seen better days.

        Judging from the last comment, this person is not a Microsoft astroturfer, but a gamer.

        I can accept that the games situation is not great under Linux, but I consider it "good enough" for entertainment value. There's plenty to keep someone amused for hours and as for driver problems: Windows is not immune.

        Try a ATI Radeon HD 5770 running four identical DVI monitors (two into the DVI ports; one into HDMI and one into DisplayPort). The open-source Radeon driver as distributed with Ubuntu 14.04 JustWorked™ from the live DVD. The same box with Windows 7 and the latest Catalyst drivers from AMD will not work no matter how we try, we get the choice of any two monitors, not all four.

        Sure 3D performance may not be as good, but we are getting better use of our card by being able to drive more monitors. As this particular workstation is acting as a monitoring system, we don't even need 3D, 3 web browser sessions showing metering data and a terminal session on the fourth monitor is fine with this set-up.

        So no, Windows is not all rainbows and unicorns. Neither is Linux. They both have their problems, and given the openness of the platform, I'll overcome the problems in the latter before I do in the former.

  53. CAPS LOCK Silver badge

    It looks like 2016 will be the year of Windows 10...

    ... on the desktop,

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: It looks like 2016 will be the year of Windows 10...

      and the desktop… in the bin.

  54. W. Anderson

    Nazi tactics should not be allowed with forced Windows 10 download

    I have Linux dual-booted on my Windows 7 Laptop - by "choice", with Windows partition re-configured to 1/3 hard drive space, and Linux with remaining 2/3. Should Microsoft force download and install of Windows 10 on my computer, it will automatically erase all vestiges of my Linux installation, with applications and data fikes as well.

    This type draconian and dictatorial action is not acceptable, even while I accept an "option" of downloading Windows 7 security and system file updates and fixes, since I purchased this Laptop with Windows 7 and may wish to keep this Operating System (OS) as adjunct to Linux for as long as desired.

    Furthermore, Windows 10 may not allow Linux dual-boot, and thus making Laptop mostly unusable, partiularly for my purposes.

    While Microsoft defenders and minions on TheRegister may not care, they are expressing great naivete and ignorance in agreement with oppressive actions that are an anathema to modern, free society.

    1. a_yank_lurker Silver badge

      Re: Nazi tactics should not be allowed with forced Windows 10 download

      My view is the box is my kit since I paid for it. The OS is there by my choice and I will remove it if it annoys me too much.

      If Slurp would remember they are a guest on users' kit they would take a very different attitude towards the user. Slurp seems to delight in angering users and apparently assumes user will never leave Windows. There are Linux distros that most users can readily use because the distro creators tried to make using Linux as painless as possible for any user; Linux Mint is a very popular example. Replacing your box with a Mac may not be viable for some but it is still on option.

      1. Pompous Git Silver badge

        Re: Nazi tactics should not be allowed with forced Windows 10 download

        "Replacing your box with a Mac may not be viable for some but it is still on option."

        The Gitling runs OS X on a PC; you don't necessarily need a Mac. Somewhat paradoxically, I installed W7 on the Macbook he gave Mrs Git.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Thumb Up

          Re: Nazi tactics should not be allowed with forced Windows 10 download

          Christ Git, your family is fucked up.

          1. Pompous Git Silver badge

            Re: Nazi tactics should not be allowed with forced Windows 10 download

            While this is undoubtedly true, there is no law that says you can't run W7 on a Mac; that's what Bootcamp is for! Mrs Git prefers W7 to OS x because she wants the machine to behave similarly to what she uses at work.The Gitling has different reasons for running OS X on a PC. Last I looked you could build a very decent PC for about half the cost of a similarly spec'd Mac.

  55. ecofeco Silver badge

    Hey! Vista wasn't THAT bad

    How dare you insult Vista like that!

    /sarcasm

    Seriously, Win 10 may well be the cause for serious market share loss in the future. My company is already testing it and it has issues. God help the average the user.

  56. nubwaxer

    nothing new in w10 that i need. no compelling reason whatsoever to upgrade. i installed w10 on my netbook but it would not allow me a dual boot option to have both w7 and w10. to hall with that.

  57. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Is anyone actually surprised by this?

    Satya Nadella was the cloud guy before he became the CEO of Microsoft.

    Expect lots of 'rapid releases', cl0ud, software as a subscription, forced upgrades, ads, telemetry and data mining in the years to come.

    Know why Microsoft declared that Windows 10 will be the last version of Windows? Because there isn't any more incentive to churn out a new retail box of Windows every few years. Nope, there is now a new way to monetize things and keep the MSFT shareholders happy.

    Cloud first, mobile first. Straight from the horse's mouth, so you know I'm not fabricating stories.

    http://www.zdnet.com/article/microsoft-ceo-satya-nadella-talks-mobile-first-cloud-first/

    1. Mpeler
      Mushroom

      Re: Is anyone actually surprised by this?

      Satya Nutella, the cloud guy?

      Why is the song "Stormy Weather" going through my head right now?

      Sorry Satya, not all of us have Gig-E connections. And probably NONE of us want to be electronically raped by the likes of you and Micro$hit.

      Aside from being a useless shill for hollywierd and the various spook agencies, etc.,, you lot are a data-slurping, privacy-invading, unscrupulous, immoral, criminal, putrid, fetid, turdbag of slimes that even the worst ciminal lowlife out there wouldn't touch with a 100-foot bargepole.

      FOAD M$.

      The BOFH's cattle-prod is too good for you.

  58. pakman

    Anyone with any experience of GWX control panel?

    I've had a quick search through the comments here, and AFAICS no-one has mentioned GWX control panel:

    http://blog.ultimateoutsider.com/2015/08/using-gwx-stopper-to-permanently-remove.html

    I'm not really a windows person, but I'm planning on trying this out for the couple of non-technical W7 users who occasionally ask me for help. If anyone has any experience with it, please comment! It seems to go at least part of the way to helping out with the worst fall-out for non-techies. It is closed-source unfortunately, although the author explains why and seems well-intentioned.

    1. Pompous Git Silver badge

      Re: Anyone with any experience of GWX control panel?

      I have used it on two systems that need to remain W7 and it appears to work as advertised. Having said that, I am in no position to declare that its declared functions are the only ones. I would far rather have not needed it.

    2. illiad

      Re: Anyone with any experience of GWX control panel?

      If you have not managed to read their website yet, GWX is a *self-contained* program (it does not need installing, does not leave anything behind, just tells you the state of your win7) you just click the buttons to do thing!

      NOTE! it is being updated regularly, due to more MS update changes...

      1. Havin_it
        Stop

        @iliad Re: Anyone with any experience of GWX control panel?

        Just because it's a single binary doesn't make it any more inherently trustworthy, which I think is the point being made (as a precautionary disclaimer, if nothing else). It could be doing anything when you run it. In that context, being updated regularly isn't necessarily a plus point: after all, that's a big part of the beef this thread is about.

        When the source code is available for scrutiny, has actually *been* scrutinised, and I've compiled it with a compiler I trust, or the binary I receive is signed by a globally-trusted authority (hard these days, I know) and a few hundred thousand people have been using it for months without losing their bank details ... then I'll trust it around shit I value. Of course, Windows itself doesn't meet that standard in my book, so it's a bit moot, but others will differ.

        Just sayin'.

  59. zen1

    Is the Windows 10 forcefd upgrade even legal?

    When you purchase a copy of Windows 7, doesn't that enter you into a contract with Microsoft? And by their forcing Windows 10 on to your machine without your permission, aren't they violating the terms of their own EULA? I paid for Windows 7, I like Windows 7. I played with the pre-release of 10 and I still don't care for the quasi-metro interface and I sure as hell don't authorize Microsoft to alter the terms of that agreement I entered into, by forcing me to use a product that I deem generally inferior to the product I currently use.

    As others have alluded, Windows 10 may in fact be a better OS than 7, but I don't like it. I don't want it and I sure as heck don't trust it, Microsoft or when they say "We're not spying on you".

    1. a_yank_lurker Silver badge

      Re: Is the Windows 10 forcefd upgrade even legal?

      @zen1 - I talked to a lawyer friend about that issue and other than a class action lawsuit or governmental investigation proceeding is likely not to result in action but a lot of money spent on fees. I think the best scenario to royally shaft Slurp is for several EU countries to announce they are ditching Slurp and require the direct vendors and company contacts to use ODF files instead of MSO formats. LibreOffice is cross platform and free and there are others.

      1. Charles 9 Silver badge

        Re: Is the Windows 10 forcefd upgrade even legal?

        Didn't a few countries try that already only to come back?

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Boffin

          Re: Is the Windows 10 forcefd upgrade even legal?

          Didn't a few countries try that already only to come back?

          No. Various agencies and regional governments have moved to Linux. The rumours of them "coming back" are lies emanating from a somewhat panic-stricken MSFT PR envisaging floodgates..

          Google "Munich Linux" for a good overview of the situation and the associated desperate PR shenanigans from Redmond. The imaginary "audit" from their chums at H(Autonomy)P is especially funny.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Is the Windows 10 forcefd upgrade even legal?

        "I think the best scenario to royally shaft Slurp is for several EU countries to announce they are ditching Slurp and require the direct vendors and company contacts to use ODF files instead of MSO formats."

        Until you can make a reliable converter (including macros) for EXISTING documents, many people are bound to stay out of necessity. Isn't what why some firms tried LO and then CAME BACK to MSO? Look, telling people to ditch their Windows and go to Linux is one thing, but you gotta provide a migration path first that doesn't involve "dropping everything and starting over" since for many dropping everything means closing up shop: a self-defeating move.

        1. Pompous Git Silver badge

          Re: Is the Windows 10 forcefd upgrade even legal?

          "Until you can make a reliable converter (including macros) for EXISTING documents..."

          My computer training business took off with the launch of W95/NT4. Many of my clients (small business such as legal firms) were moving from Wang and similar systems. The file converter was me and I didn't come cheap. So it's doable... Not to mention that several versions of Word/Word Perfect run well enough under Wine (or so I'm told).

    2. illiad

      Re: Is the Windows 10 forcefd upgrade even legal?

      It is 'better' in terms of comparing a new car to an old one... the new one is a bit faster, a bit more economical, BUT...

      The tyres are more expensive, the old car ones are *totally* different..

      The filler cover is a different design, it will take a long while to figure out how to even open it!!! :(

      The company decided to remove the easy to read instruments, and 'go retro' with 'horizontal thermometer' displays, really fancy, but need good eyesight to see... :/

      there are full 'AI' controls for radio, GPS, road handling modes, etc... but you have to go though about TEN steps to *almost* find the setting, and then it closes ALL the options if you 'pause to think'...

  60. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge
    Windows

    WINDOWS 10: THE WINDOWS KEYNES WOULD HAVE WANTED

    That "Free Windows Upgrade" also sounds a lot like Money Printing: Nobody wants it except some suited guys in a boardroom who have decided to not invest into much effort into getting richer, it is sold as an improvement and a great idea ("20+ totally wrecked economies since 1920 can't be wrong!!"), it gives everyone a hard time and fucks up people whose remaining lifespan is too short to reinvent themselves yet another time.

  61. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    110m can be wrong

    They are just idiots that took the free upgrade assuming free is actually free and that newer must be better

  62. stevenotinit
    Windows

    Here is my comment at the official Windows Insider forum

    http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/insider/forum/insider_wintp-insider_update/opinion-microsoft-is-pushing-too-aggressively-for/c66f49b0-ed97-49b5-898d-b988fb41626a

    I'm a tad surprised the discussion is going as well as it is so far.

  63. brainout

    Yep, 110 million forced installs, OEM orders but NOT SOLD, 70+ million or so of which are the combo of Insiders, MSFT employees and contract labor testers, and OEM orders (80 million over the same period for Win8, but here I'm assuming 60 million).. can't be wrong about the fact that MSFT has to FORCE YOU in order to claim 110 million.

    Honey: if it was so good, we'd be beating down the door to get it, not you beating down each of our computer doors to FORCE YOURSELF IN.

    Rapists are not desirable lovers.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Here is my comment at the official Windows Insider forum

      I suspect your monetary damages may already be underway if this upgrade sneaks past the door in just one company large enough to piss smilingly in the shoes of Microsoft's lawyers.

      What is more, labelling this as if it is a mere patch ("just a flesh wound") is asking for problems re. product description laws because there is one thing MS has forgotten: the moment they try to monetise those installs, that "it's just an upgrade" label will turn into a deliberate attempt to mislead people. Anyone over the age of about 30 has picked up enough Microsoft industry history saw that one coming a mile off, but consumers have not, and trumpeting that install figure will then come back to haunt them in a form of IT karma that they very much deserve.

      I don't know about the US, but I know for a fact that that will lead to MASSIVE problems in the UK - the moment they start asking for money I'm going to need quite a lot of popcorn because it will be rather fun to watch it all blow up. It'll be a series all of its own.

      As I said before, I actually regret I don't have any Windows systems anymore because I could have had some real fun with this one. On the plus side, I can just shrug and get on with work and even have enough time left to comment here :)

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      I wouldn't say 110 million forced installs. Probably at least 80-90M, perhaps even 105M, but not all Windows 10 installations are against the user's wishes.

      I do know of at least one person who chose to run Windows 10 and actually likes it, but even he is critical of the amount of telemetry that comes with the OS and the amount of stuff-around needed to turn such "features" off.

      I was open to giving it a try after release when Windows 10 was in beta. That changed when I found out the telemetry was going to be part of the release and not just for beta testing purposes.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Here is my comment at the official Windows Insider forum

      Firstly, it's spelt "OS X" or more correctly, "MacOS X", not "OsX"

      Another point that is worth raising here is that people buy an Internet connection to do things on the Internet such as checking email, doing business over the Internet and being entertained.

      When a Windows 10 download chews up 3GB of their 1GB monthly quota, what are they supposed to do? Upload it to a pirate site to make the ISPs download meters run backwards?! (If only that worked!) No, they either get cut off, lumped with a huge bill or get stuck with crippled Internet connections for the rest of the month.

      This: without the user's consent. This needs to change.

  64. Slx

    It's weird how Microsoft has become so dogmatic avoid pushing that damn tiles interface.

    I feel like it's a bit of an emperor's new clothes scenario, nobody is telling them it is ugly and very jarring to use.

    I hate using Windows 8 as I just find the whole look and feel horrible. I liked Windows 7 as it was nice and refined.

    Sorry Microsoft but every iteration of your new UI is driving me to OS X and Linux

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Oh you blasphemer!

      The folks over at Windows Central and WMPoweruser will crucify you for your heresy.

      "The tile interface is so good and intuitive, you are nothing more than a Luddite and a Microsoft-hater".

      I remember when Microsoft was still baking Windows 8 and Sinofsky and Ballmer were still around, there were some articles which spoke of the person who invented the Metro tile UI.

      http://winsupersite.com/windows-8/julie-larson-green-talks-about-blue-and-future-windows

      http://www.businessinsider.sg/julie-larson-green-takes-over-microsoft-office-2015-10/

      If you check her CV, up until the launch of Windows 8, she had no prior experience in designing software UI/UX.

      And after the woeful sales of Windows 8 and a new CEO, she got what was essentially a job promotion. You simply can't make this up!

      1. Mpeler
        Paris Hilton

        Re: Oh you blasphemer! - Julie Larson-Green talks about blue

        One has to wonder if she, erm, blue her way to the top...

  65. adam payne Silver badge

    Thank you Microsoft for thinking of me and my PC. I understand you love Windows 10 and want everybody to share in it's extreme awesomeness.

    For your information Microsoft, I hate Windows 8 for it's awful GUI and after using Windows 10 for a few hours I'm going down the same route with that OS as well.

    I built my PC, it's my PC and I will decide what OS gets installed on it.

  66. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    See no evil... give no toss

    Microsoft clearly don't want to know about the problems and animosity their forced upgrades are causing, and likely won't care until somebody takes them to court, and I wish somebody would challenge this because the combination of forced upgrades and then breaking Win7/8 with the Win10 spyware is ridiculous. Can you imagine what'd happen if [insert motor company here] turned up to convert your soft-top sports car into a 3-wheeled tuk-tuk without your consent!?

    I recently spoke with a 30 year veteran Microsoft guy and it's exactly the same response from him as it is on the MS discussion thread: "There's nothing to see here, just install the Windows 10 update already! If you've nothing to hide you've nothing to fear!" and of course, then wheeling out how because Google/Apple are being intrusive then that must make it acceptable for MS to do the same thing to your PC!

    I don't think anything I said in reply even got heard because he appeared to truly believe that it's just a bunch of Linux/Mac fanbois and professional MS haters doing what they always do and hating on Microsoft for absolutely no good reason. I asked if he was only following orders too, but our conversation ended right there...

    Maybe there are fanatics out there who just hate on MS for the hell of it, but to me at least it seems a significant amount of the noise and criticism is coming from a lot of Windows users who are clearly very unhappy about being treated like this. What else I can see is that it looks very like the *only* defence of this whole Windows 10 fiasco - from the OS itself/spyware/forced upgrade policy/ads is from very obvious paid PR people posing as happy users. Are things so serious for Microsoft? I guess when you need so many astroturfers you have to use the B team too. :)

    1. Slx

      Re: See no evil... give no toss

      I'm getting worried that an unnamed car maker might do just that with their non-cheating software update ! Will My high performance low emissions diesel now be a low emissions diesel

  67. TheOtherMe
    FAIL

    You don't upgrade the OS

    I've said it before - if the OS needs to be upgraded (as opposed to updated) Do It Clean!! Format the drive and install from scratch. In all the years of dealing with Windows kit since 3.1 a major version release is best done as a fresh install.

    1. Mpeler
      Mushroom

      Re: You don't upgrade the OS

      Looks like M$ took your advice.

      There's no way in He!! that Windoze 1 0 could be considered an upgrade...

  68. Stoneshop Silver badge
    Pirate

    Another vector

    Recently, Windows Update on my dad's laptop (this one, and his desktop PC are the only W7 systems in my care) b0rked. Several MSFT fixing tools chewed on the problem, but failed to correct it. So finally I put a new disk in, installed W7+SP1 (and Mint next to it), told it to fetch updates, AND VETTED THEM ONE BY ONE. All updates mentioned in one of the replies here or in the other W10 articles were unchecked and hidden, as well as any of the other updates that smelled even vaguely suspicious. The Do Not Want settings were applied to the registry, and only then were the remaining updates applied.

    Still, powering up the lappie to hand it back last monday, it showed that &^%*&$^*^!! "Get W10" icon in the notification area. Investigating, it turned out that there were a couple of entries in the Task Scheduler related to GWX, which were terminated with extreme prejudice.

    I ddin't have time to investigate the source of this particular GWX invasion, but told my dad not to click on it if it ever reappeared (he fully understands why, so I don't expect problems there) and let me know.

    Arrgh.

  69. lonegull

    Desperation

    Microsoft's tactics in forcing Windows 10 upgrade is plain desperation. Windows 10 is getting better, but is not much more than a reconfigured Windows 8.1 w/ spyware.

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