back to article Apple's iPad Pro: We're making a Surface Pro WITH A STYLUS over Steve Jobs' DEAD BODY

With the announcement of the 12.9-inch MaxiPad iPad Pro, Apple has finally mounted its challenge to Microsoft's Surface Pro. Boss Tim Cook announced the iOS-powered enormo-slab Wednesday at a special event in downtown San Francisco before giving way to marketing honcho Phil Schiller, who disclosed the specs and details of the …

  1. Steven Raith

    Value?

    Apple iPad Pro Keyboard Cover = $169

    Apple Pencil = $99

    Add a dollar more, and you can buy an iPad Mini, at $269

    Astonishing Value.

    Er, sorry, I meant, Christ Almighty. $160 for a keyboard?

    Steven R

    1. dave 93

      Re: Value?

      Shouldn't that keyboard have a trackpad as well for that kind of money?

      The three-pin power and data thing looks pretty simple for third-parties to build on, unless it needs a 'special' Apple permission slip. I

      t is, yet another, proprietary I/O and power interface. If you can charge through it as well, that would be easier than plugging it in...

      1. bobgameon

        Re: Value?

        The iPad Pro runs iOS not Mac OS. Which means no mouse pointer on screen, no need for a trackpad.

        1. Sandtitz Silver badge

          Re: Value? @bobgameon

          Android doesn't have a mouse pointer on screen yet I have no problems using a trackpad/point on a Lenovo tablet (along with touch) since the mouse pointer appears when the mouse is used. Oh, and there's a left AND right mouse button.

          1. bobgameon

            Re: Value? @bobgameon

            I know it does. I've used android tablets with mouse and keyboards. But the iOS doesn't have mouse pointers that's all I'm saying.

            1. TeeCee Gold badge
              Meh

              Re: Value? @bobgameon

              .... iOS doesn't have mouse pointers....

              Android doesn't have mouse pointers, until you plug a mouse in. Since there's no mouse on any iOS device to date how do you know for sure there isn't the support for one squirreled away in there somewhere, just waiting for the glorious day when Apple decide to mouse up an iOS device?

        2. TaabuTheCat

          Re: Value?

          No need, until you run a remote desktop session with RDP or VMware View, and you NEED a frikkin mouse or trackpad!!!

          Apple really knows how to kill a prime use case for this device.

          1. bobgameon

            Re: Value?

            People seem to be getting the wrong idea. I'm not defending Apple. A Smartphone OS on a 13" device meant for enterprise with no external mouse support and no file system access is probably the dumbest idea ever.

            I'm just saying the iPad pro doesn't need a trackpad because iOS has no support for them.

            1. LDS Silver badge

              Re: Value?

              It's better to replace "doesn't need" with "can't support one"

          2. Lusty Silver badge

            Re: Value?

            "Apple really knows how to kill a prime use case for this device."

            Yeah, their business is really struggling as a result of nerds like you not being able to do every single thing you can think of with the device. Oh no, wait, they are actually one of the most successful companies of all time who have consistently created use-cases rather than adopt old tired ones.

            You only need to RDP because you're doing remote management wrong, even MS have said that. You only need VMware View because you're doing applications wrong. Create applications for the tablet and you don't need the desktop metaphor. Very few applications need the desktop when properly investigated, Adobe is a good example with their demo last night.

            1. Ian 7
              Trollface

              Re: Value?

              Of course you're doing it wrong - whether it's holding a phone wrong so the antenna doesn't work properly, or putting it in the wrong pocket so the phone bends, it's you. You're the problem. Not Apple. Oh good gracious me no! It's you!

              And you want proof that Apple are inventing new use cases? Just look at the innovation on the iPad Pro... A keyboard! A stylus! Do you have any idea of the new use cases these peripherals will support? Even the name - "Pro"! Only Apple could think of something so audacious!!!

              Er, you know I'm being sarcastic, right? Or possibly ironic; I never know the difference!

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: Value?

                "Er, you know I'm being sarcastic, right? Or possibly ironic; I never know the difference!"

                Both; you are saying the opposite of what you mean with enough pointers for the instructed to realise (irony) but you are referring to "you" in contexts like doing it wrong - which is sarcasm (from the Greek he sarki, flesh, i.e. making a comment directed at a person.)

                1. Ian 7

                  Re: Value?

                  I have actually learned something today! Thankyou :) (and that's genuine, by the way!)

              2. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: Value?

                "Er, you know I'm being sarcastic, right? Or possibly ironic; I never know the difference!"

                The differentiator = snark level

            2. PsychicMonkey

              Re: Value?

              Ah the usual Apple refrain, "you are doing it wrong". If you supply hardware and/or software you should try to make it as easy as possible for your users to do what they want with said hardware/software. For some reason Apple constantly get away with telling people what to do and those people just suck it up.

            3. Big Ed

              Re: Value?

              @Lusty. Most of the MS Office Suite does not have full function on the iPad; that alone justifies the need for View. And the iPad's ARM processor only does graphics brilliantly, but it sucks on the compute side.

              I love my iPhone, my iPad, and my MacBook Pro; but unless Apple puts a strong Intel chip on the next iPad. I will buy a Surface Pro when my iPad goes toes-up.

              1. Lusty Silver badge

                Re: Value?

                "that alone justifies the need for View"

                No it doesn't, it justifies having a proper computer to use when you're not mobile with your tablet. I regularly write 40-100 page reports and have never found a function the iPad version of word is lacking despite lots of different formatting and pictures. I need to use the big computer for Visio, but then I just wait until I'm on my laptop. Tablets are great as tablets, trying to make them a full computer ends up with a Surface pro, which is a small laptop rather than a tablet. I like the Surface Pro but it really is a terrible tablet.

          3. thedarke

            Re: Value?

            I think that's kind of the point. They're trying to actively kill the desktop apps. So are Microsoft. It's a thing.

            End of the day TS/RDP is a compromise. VDI is a poor-man's solution to containerization, and that's be recognized for quite a while. Microsoft is moving in on the latter use case via the outputs from things like Project Drawbridge which hopefully will see the light of day in Server 2016. The new changes to how 'Modern UI' works and converting old code into Modern is all about killing the need for mouse pointers.

            I love my keyboard and mouse, but I'm under no illusions that if someone can figure touch out, that's it's far more precise. The Apple Pencil seems to have that precision, and the Adobe demo was frankly an absolute killer for the types of users who buy Apple products- creative professionals.

            Think of it this way: how many average users do you know who really, honestly, give a crap about who makes the OS? Or the HID? They care about being productive. Microsoft have recognized that- they've realized that getting O365 subscriptions is more important than owning the platform (rightly so).

            Of course, Android hardware manufacturers pioneered here (well, arguably Apple did with the Newton)- but once again, Apple out polishes them- every single time. They are very much the Linux Vs Windows debate- most Linux distros can do everything Windows can, but people go to Windows because of public awareness, UI familiarity (hence the rebellion over the Start Menu in Windows 8), and ease of use. Apple win the market in much the same way- not by being first, not by being cheapest, but by being the more easy for general public users to digest.

            The fact they have also made people want their products, not just need them, is also something El Reg clearly doesn't understand. Best Marketing company on the planet.

            The price is hefty, but their are a lot of execs who are 'iPad or bust' and will sign the deal to get a fleet of them. I'm only getting one because I develop for iOS and Android- and it's another form factor headache to deal with- but that situation is far worse on Android.

            1. Big Ed

              Re: Value?

              @thedarke. Sure VDI is a poor man's solution to containerization.

              VDI's role in life is to get legacy apps in the hands of users quickly, and cheaply. And VDI on an iPad would be an immediate way to get desktop apps into the hands of iPad users immediately.

              VDI also has some specialty use cases. For example it can function can be used to securely control access into test bubble.

          4. 2+2=5 Silver badge
            Facepalm

            Re: Value?

            > No need, until you run a remote desktop session with RDP or VMware View, and you NEED a frikkin mouse or trackpad!!!

            Are you really saying that you think the guys & girls porting RDP & VMware View to this new ipad are clever enough to do the port but not clever enough to simulate a mouse pointer?

        3. dajames Silver badge

          Re: Value?

          The iPad Pro runs iOS not Mac OS. Which means no mouse pointer on screen, no need for a trackpad.

          It's really no different from Android devices that don't show a cursor on-screen until you attach a mouse to drive it ... except that with an Android device you can attach a mouse to drive it.

          (...but I see I'm not the first to point that out.)

          My Sony smartphone does look a bit odd with an OTG adaptor and a Microsoft optical mouse attached (and I bet the mouse's LED sucks the battery) but I do get an onscreen pointer, even on a phone!

        4. big_D Silver badge

          Re: Value?

          When you are working with a keyboard, a trackpad is easier for some tasks, you don't have to take your hand away from the keyboard area (a ThinkPad nubbin would be even better) and you don't have to reach over the keyboard to touch the screen.

          I use a Surface Pro 3 and with the keyboard attached, I probably use 60% trackpad or mouse.

        5. Anonymous Blowhard

          Re: Value?

          "The iPad Pro runs iOS not Mac OS. Which means no mouse pointer on screen, no need for a trackpad."

          Phew, otherwise they'd have wanted another $99 for the trackpad.

          1. VinceH Silver badge
            Trollface

            Re: Value?

            "Phew, otherwise they'd have wanted another $99 for the trackpad."

            Just give it a couple of years, and they'll "reinvent" the mouse (and/or trackpad) for their (then) newest iPad - and the fanbois/gurlz who were so dismissive of the idea of attaching a mouse/trackpad will lap it up, telling us all how revolutionary and brilliant it is.

            1. Squander Two

              Re: Value?

              > Just give it a couple of years, and they'll "reinvent" the mouse (and/or trackpad)

              Ah, I still remember when Apple invented copying and pasting. They even had a TV advert for it. Revolutionary stuff.

              I had a Nokia 9500 Communicator and had been copying and pasting for years, but I'm sure that didn't count for some reason.

        6. dave 93

          Re: Value?

          Good point. Someone should write an app for trackpad support.

          Android has it built in, and it works OK, although 'swiping' is a bit odd with a mouse.

      2. Rob Thorley

        Re: Value?

        For that kind of money, the keyboard should come with a bunch of cigars, some whisky, and a troupe of dancing girls.

      3. eom

        Re: Value?

        It has a 12" trackpad above the keyboard

    2. J 3
      Trollface

      Re: Value?

      Yeah, but it is an APPLE keyboard, so people will buy it, and then rave about how so much better than anything else it is.

    3. TheVogon Silver badge

      Re: Value?

      "we're making a Surface Pro WITH A STYLUS"

      The Surface Pro has a stylus. It's included with the product and doesn't cost an extra $99 though...

    4. Kepler
      WTF?

      $169 just for the keyboard???

      Good God!

      I just bought the laptop I'm using to post this comment for $125, tax included. It includes a keyboard, but it also includes a CPU and RAM (4 GB), a hard drive (500 GB), a touch screen, ports, etc.

      (OTOH, it came with Windows 8, and now is running Windows 8.1 Update. And updating the operating system just to make it tolerable took the better part of three friggin' days! So there's a lot of inconvenience I have to weigh in the balance. But still, . . .)

      This Apple kit is very elegant and appealing, as always, and if I had money to spare I'd love to have a fully tricked-out iPad Pro. What's not to like? But it's sure as Hell not a value proposition.

  2. John Sanders
    Holmes

    Apple's cunning plan

    So, at last, this is it, this is Apple's master plan to sell more iPad... minis.

    Make a large tablet no one wants or needs, and so expensive that people are thankful for the price of the iPad mini.

    I'm impressed.

    1. Lusty Silver badge

      Re: Apple's cunning plan

      Not really, they are aimed at different markets. Apple will sell at least as many iPad Pros to business as MS sell Surface Pro. The difference is that Apple also have the home market with the Mini and Air where most others have failed to gain traction. There are plenty of people who want/need the iPad Pro, you just aren't one of them and you've clearly not dealt with those people and don't have the imagination to see their needs. It's not aimed at playing Angry Birds and Spotify, it's aimed at serious use as demonstrated in the demo by the various companies present who actually showed you the use-cases that will make this sell like hot cakes!

      1. Mage Silver badge

        Re: Apple's cunning plan

        They will not sell many* of these, but more than is sold of Surface Pro, and at a massive profit margin.

        I wonder how the iFans will store and edit video on it?

        [* I might be wrong, perhaps these will outsell Macs.]

      2. AIBailey

        Re: Apple's cunning plan

        it's aimed at serious use as demonstrated in the demo by the various companies present who actually showed you the use-cases that will make this sell like hot cakes!

        You mean like Microsoft? Demonstrating how you can use it for all your business needs? Like they did with the hot-cake-selling Surface range?

        I agree, a tablet that size is more business oriented (like the Surface Pro). Getting MS to show support is a good move, however while the Surface Pro's are well built and possibly useful bits of kit, they've not exactly set the business world alight.

        Apple are selling a device with a keyboard and a 13" screen. Rather like the laptop that I'm typing this on. While the iPad will inevitably be slimmer and lighter, they're starting to move into established business teritories and competing against laptops with useful features such as external video output (without paying a small fortune for an apple adaptor), wired network connectors, optical drives, USB ports etc.

        I wonder how many business users will use a huge iPad as a revolutionary tool, compared to how many have on as a status symbol?

      3. TheVogon Silver badge

        Re: Apple's cunning plan

        " Apple will sell at least as many iPad Pros to business as MS sell Surface Pro. "

        That I doubt. To consumers maybe, but most businesses won't fall for the Apple façade of enterprise readiness.

        1. Lusty Silver badge

          Re: Apple's cunning plan

          The same enterprise readiness that sells other Apple devices by the crapton, yes. You clearly haven't done your research here, Apple have all sorts of enterprise features, and even as a Microsoft gold partner we have loads of customers who are entirely Mac based on the desktop. Media companies still love them and will love the iPad Pro. Just because you're not aware of it doesn't mean there isn't a market!

    2. g e

      Re: Apple's cunning plan

      Impressive is charging $150 (~100 quid) for 96GB flash when a 128GB USB3 stick is 21 quid.

      Not impressive is a horrific colour choice of shiny, shiny-shiny and 'monochrome beige'. Presumably informed by how spangly it looks on camera during product placement shots.

  3. ecarlseen

    Stylus is a bit understated

    Apparently it has the ability to sense force, tilt, etc. to offer different effects for drawing. Also interesting that in a very un-Apple manner they didn't give a convenient or obvious way to transport it with the iPad - it is a physically separate item (doesn't slide in for storage). That being said, the trade-off is that it's a full-thickness device similar to a normal pen or pencil which may be better for control. Even with that flaw (maybe), it seems like it will be quite the Exec-u-toy ("I can draw on my minions' office documents without having to learn anything about Office? Buy me ten!").

    1. Dave 126 Silver badge

      Re: Stylus is a bit understated

      Adobe have already tested these waters for Apple, by releasing pen and ruler for iPod. Obviously Adobe also released iOS software to take advantage of them, too.

    2. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge

      Re: Stylus is a bit understated

      I've wanted a proper stylus on my iPad for years. And have been holding out on the next upgrade, wondering if I should go for a Samsung Note of some description, stick with the current iPad 3 for a few more years, or just say sod-it and go for a cheapy 'Droid. The 3 is significantly heavier than the newer stuff, and I use it for long periods of time. Microsoft's Surface is starting to look tempting here too, but doesn't have the apps - and I've got a PC for doing serious stuff.

      But they've apparently released a tablet with sylus that doesn't do palm rejection? Seriously? How the hell are you supposed to use it? Wacom have been doing this for 15 years now! Surely Apple can afford a license?

      I don't want to draw, well I do, but have all the artistic talent of a cluster of colourblind hedgehogs, in a bag. But it might be fun to give a drawing tool to the kids. I want to write text. For which a stylus is perfect on a tablet form factor, and at least twice as fast as onscreen keyboard input. It was on my old HP Touchsmart 10 years ago, should be even faster now. That had palm rejection and ran Vista tolerably fast, and only cost £600. Back when a useable laptop started at £450. I don't think I'm asking for the moon on a stick here.

    3. Alan Edwards

      Re: Stylus is a bit understated

      If the other comments here are right, the iPad Pro doesn't have a digitiser layer, so you can't touch the screen at the same time as using the Pencil.

      Making it totally useless (IMO) for all the things they were showing off yesterday. You can't brace your hand whilst drawing, and you can't rest your hand on the screen when writing. I tried using a stylus to write on an iPad, and the notes were unreadable.

      I can't believe they launched an $800 tablet that was designed to be used with a stylus and doesn't have a digitiser.

      1. anonymous boring coward Silver badge

        Re: Stylus is a bit understated

        If you look at the demo there are plenty of places where the fingers are used simultaneously with the Pencil

        BTW, the whole screen on any iPad or iPhone is a digitiser, so I'm not quite sure what you mean. I suppose you mean that the digitiser can distinguish between fingers and the Pencil? It seems it can. It would be probably the no 1. priority on the spec sheet for this feature.

        Since the Pencil is active (powered) it, together with the digitiser, could do all sorts of clever stuff to make sure it's always identified properly.

        1. ChrisC

          Re: Stylus is a bit understated

          It's common, when discussing the Wacom-style of stylus implementation as used e.g. on the Samsung devices, to refer to a digitiser layer seperate from the capacitive touch layer, as it's this seperate layer which the system uses to detect the stylus.

          However, as Nvidia showed with the stylus implementation on their digitiser-less tablets, it is possible to provide palm/touch rejection without needing that seperate layer, so if the new iPad is similarly digitiser-less, it suggests they've also come up with a way to use the capacitive layer for both stylus and touch inputs.

      2. Justin Clift

        Re: Stylus is a bit understated

        If the other comments here are right, the iPad Pro doesn't have a digitiser layer, so you can't touch the screen at the same time as using the Pencil.

        Watching the trailer for it, the guy specifically says it can be used at the same time as finger input (at ~1:24), and shows it happening:

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFKPz9WA5uY

        1. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge

          Re: Stylus is a bit understated

          It's hard to say. Most of the drawing in that video is notable by the completely alien nature of the way they're doing it. Holding the wrist at an unatural angle in order to not touch the screen with any part of the hand, other than the sylus tip. Which may actually come naturally to designery and artistic types, but is bloody uncomfortable when writing. On the other hand, it was all about the art, and didn't mention handwriting recognition.

          The bit where they showed simultaneous input was done with the other hand.

          There was one guy drawing at the end, who had his hand at what I felt was a natural angle, with fist rested on the screen. But I couldn't tell if he was hovering it above the screen or actually touching. So it's hard to say.

  4. dave 93
    Meh

    Screw you, dead Steve Jobs

    A bit harsh...

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Screw you, dead Steve Jobs

      Also kinda difficult without a risk of splinters where you'd really, really not want them..

  5. Stevie Silver badge

    Bah!

    Well, you can get excellent third party styluses and keyboards for the iPad at less than half those process quoted.

    Apple missed a trick here by not copyrighting "iPad Legal" and "iPad Foolscap" as possible names for the beast. "iPod Pro" is so 2005.

    1. dave 93

      Re: Bah!

      A9, the name of the new processor, is also a paper size - a business card. Coincidence? I don't think so.

      1. YARR

        A9

        it's also the name of an ARM-powered computer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A9home

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: A9

          It's also a motorway in many countries (etc)

      2. John H Woods Silver badge

        A9 business cards ...

        ... would be an unusual shape. AN is 2^-N square metres with sides in the ratio of 1:sqrt(2); A9 is 37.2mm x 52.6mm. Most business cards are 85mm x 55mm aren't they? Probably US ones are in inches but i think they are a bit too oblong to be A-shape.

        1. Graham Dawson

          Re: A9 business cards ...

          #notallbusinesscards

          1. John H Woods Silver badge

            Re: #notallbusinesscards

            I googled that and only got your comment! I have received a fair few business cards over the years and, although there have been some odd shapes, I don't think I've ever had an A shape one: I think A9 would be a bit too small anyway, it's more like a coupon. Maybe A8 might do the trick.

      3. Stevie Silver badge

        Re: A9

        Well spotted.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Bah!

      "iPod Pro" - I presumed the name was a bit of a copy from the Surface Pro, ie. a tablet style device you can actually use for real work and not just watching movies and viewing stuff!

  6. bobgameon

    People said that the surface pro was expensive well at least with a surface you get a full desktop OS not a smartphone OS.

    Small point of inquiry. According to the apple presentation the GPU in the new iPad pro and iPhone 6s offer console level graphics. Exactly which console are they comparing it to, the PS One?

    1. Ray Mills

      The Magnavox Odyssey, obviously.

    2. Dave 126 Silver badge

      >People said that the surface pro was expensive well at least with a surface you get a full desktop OS not a smartphone OS.

      That's a fairly arbitrary differentiation... If the UI works for the HI hardware and it runs suitable applications, who gives a damn what the origin of an OS is?

      >Small point of inquiry. According to the apple presentation the GPU in the new iPad pro and iPhone 6s offer console level graphics. Exactly which console are they comparing it to, the PS One?

      Between the PS2 and PS3, roughly.

      http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/190105-does-the-iphone-6-actually-have-console-quality-graphics

      http://static1.gamespot.com/uploads/original/110/1100542/2644037-3674092395-Tegra.jpg

      1. anonymous boring coward Silver badge

        That's the original iPhone 6. The iPad Pro would be way more powerful.

        I believe the article states that the PS4 is about 10x faster than the old iPhone 6.

        So the iPhone 6 would then be about on par with the PS3, which is astonishing considering the difference in power usage.

        I suspect the iPad pro easily surpasses the PS3.

      2. bobgameon

        Quoting from the extremetech article you posted:

        "For a few years now, marketing types and execs have been trumpeting the fact that smartphones have “console-quality graphics” — but this is false in every way except for resolution. Without getting into the complexities of 3D graphics, suffice it to say that it’s easy to render a world at 1920×1080. The hard bit is covering that world in high-quality textures, drawing lots of high-polygon models, and having the raw grunt to calculate how the lighting/physics/etc interact with everything — and in all of these cases, the iPhone 6 and every other mobile device sucks in comparison to the Xbox One or PS4."

    3. Lusty Silver badge

      "at least with a surface you get a full desktop OS not a smartphone OS."

      Which is smashing for people who need that OS but not for people who don't need that OS but do need an iPad App. Not all use-cases are your use cases ;)

      1. bobgameon

        While the iPad does have some productivity apps that might meet certain people's criteria the lack of file system access and other things that a full blown OS has is going to turn off a lot of prospective buyers. The iPad is based on the concept of keeping everything in the cloud while most companies don't trust the cloud enough to keep sensitive data on it. They prefer to keep these on in house servers.

        Although Apple does have a deal with IBM to make enterprise apps for the iPad so maybe they can come up with something to bypass this.

        One area where the iPad Pro might be successful is designers but there also its going to have a tough fight with the many tablets that are already available. Why would these people give up the full functionality of Photoshop and Illustrator to use something like what adobe showed on stage when they can use Photoshop on such tablets at lower prices?

  7. YorksinOaks

    Slavishly Copied

    Xxx Pro : 12.X Inch Tab Copied From Samsung.

    Magnetic Keyboard Copied From Microsoft

    Stylus Copied from Samsung (less well)

    Before we look at

    5" Flagship Phone Copied from Samsung, Sony, LG. ...

    5.5" Phablet Copied from Samsung

    7.x" Tablet Copied from world and dog

    4K camera, xHD pressure sensitive screens......

    Almost all these ideas were derided when they were initially launched, yet are suddenly brilliant.

    Rounded corners "design patent" pending cancellation due to blindingly obvious prior art.

    Gobsmacking hipocrisy and lack of innovation.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Slavishly Copied

      Gobsmacking hipocrisy and lack of innovation.

      A stylus is a VERY old idea, and if you want to be picky about it, Apple already introduced it on the Newton which was *way* ahead of its time and thus didn't sell that well.

      Only after Apple showed the way on how to create a usable interface on a mobile phone (because smartphones we already had) did the smartphone take off, after which Google just copied the concept for Android. The whole tablet-that-people-actually-want-to-buy thing came from Apple too, previous attempts had not gone anywhere because outfits like Microsoft were too tied to their overloaded, mouse-and-keyboard centric UI to create anything more than at best marginally useful in some niche areas.

      The only thing that Apple may have copied is the smaller format for tablets, or bigger format for phones. For the rest they have pretty much led the pack, also in terms of screen quality. Now everyone has high res screens, but here again it's Apple that started it.

      As for 4K, meh. Not interested in yet another higher definition format that costs a lot of resources and requires me to replace things.

      1. HildyJ

        Re: Slavishly Copied

        The stylus is an older idea than computers with the first handwriting capture patent dating to 1888 and the first handwriting recognition patent to 1915. As far as actual commercial computing tablets, the Pencept and GRiDPad preceded the Newton by years.

        It's phone innovation was the capacitive screen which allowed a virtual keyboard versus Blackberry-esque mechanical keyboards. That, advertising, and iTunes are what drove their success. Now they're down to advertising.

        1. Emmeran

          Re: Slavishly Copied

          iTunes. Bingo.

          That was the good idea (Thank you Napster) borrowed and then well executed. Apps? I don't know someone smarter than me can talk to that.

          But iTunes - hundreds of billions of dollars created by that silly little under-powered, hard to use but enormously popular iPod toy. Everything else they've done has just been a knock-on fad that won't seem to go away. Mostly because of iTunes.

          1. anonymous boring coward Silver badge

            Re: Slavishly Copied

            Short memories much?

            Every single modern phone is a conceptual decendant of the original iPhone.

            Does any silly commentard even remember the pre-iphone era?

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Slavishly Copied

              "Does any silly commentard even remember the pre-iphone era?"

              I still have my Nokia 5800 from that era in storage. It was a touchscreen device, WITH A STYLUS for higher-precision input (finger primary, stylus secondary).

              It even went as far as to have a slot built in to store said stylus.

              And symbian at that time was a more-than-acceptable touchscreen experience. Yes, things have improved in the interim period, but it was better than you think back then.

              I still miss the physical lock/unlock slider though.

              1. anonymous boring coward Silver badge

                Re: Slavishly Copied

                "More than acceptable" was probably more like "just about acceptable", and requiring a stylus.

                I'm sure many of us remember various feeble attempts that were made before Apple showed how it should be done.

                Yes, phones had several apps. Not from any kind of app store that actually remebered what you had purchased, mind. They had GUIs knobbled together by a few geeks at Psion or Symbian.

                Upgrade the OS? Well... It was almost as difficult as getting an update of Android on a non-Google phone today. Then just reinstall those apps (if you could find them), and cross your fingers they still work.

                All very exiting for geeks. Not very usable for normal people.

                1. LDS Silver badge

                  "Not from any kind of app store that actually remebered what you had purchased"

                  You mean the greatest innovation was the app "walled garden" and its tax on any app sold? Sure, from the shareholder perspective they are. From the user one, not so much.

                  There were stores for PalmOS, for example - and sellers "remebered" your purchases... just you could install apps from wherever you liked. And the PalmOS home screen design (and similar ones), is the one still used by iOS (and Android - only Windows Phone redesigned it wholly).

                  It is true Apple took a great advantage from the capacitative multitouch technology it *bought* (it didn't developed it) to simplify the UI interaction - that was the biggest innvation introduced.

              2. anonymous boring coward Silver badge

                Re: Slavishly Copied

                Looks like Nokia 5800 came out a year and a half after the iPhone...

                You can see how heavily influenced it has been by the iPhone, compared to the pre-iPhone Nokias.

                The Samsung bosses were shocked when the iPhone came out, when comparing it to their best efforts so far.

            2. Avatar of They Silver badge
              FAIL

              Re: Slavishly Copied

              Actually yeah, I had two. One was the windows phone that ran programs like a computer. I think it was pocket Pc 2002 & then 2003 basically on a phone. Mine was the Vario1 and Vario 2 something or other from T mobile and they ran programs, let me read email and generally do stuff with a browser. I even had a slide out keyboard and I could play with a stylus games like age of empires. And even though it had a stylus, you could use your finger to touch the screen and things happened.

              I still have them in a drawer and although quite large the battery lasted a week even with all the features (and a 128 page instruction manual including how to connect to MS Exchange)

              And I also had the Nokia 7210 I think it was, that had apps which appeared as icons on a screen that you pressed and things happened, like games and things to do with the weather and something that did the internet via WAP. Ran on Symbian and I upgraded to the Vario because I needed to connect my phone to MS and Nokia's desktop migration tool was pants.

              And then came Apple with the iphone in 2007. Wonder where it gets it ideas from.

            3. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Slavishly Copied

              Does any silly commentard even remember the pre-iphone era?

              Yup - my first phone was a Nec P3. I resisted buying the Motorola StarTac because it was too flashy, and soon afterwards Nokia started to make phones. Heck, on account of working for a telco I managed to get my hands on one of the first Nokia Communicators in the UK, a device I handed off in a month because it was too much of a brick. The phone I liked best was the Sony Ericsson P1i, it had a stylus-capable screen that could recognise characters, came with a built-in business card reader app (yes, that had apps already because it was a Symbian derivative) and it had IMHO the best keyboard ever implemented on a mobile phone because keys had a left and a right side to press (so fewer but bigger keys and much easier to press reliably than the Blackberry match heads).

              Now I mainly use an iPhone, although I'll probably buy that Honor 7 when it comes out as backup. I'm not married to a platform, I buy what I think I will actually use. That's also why I will probably not buy an iPhone 6s, the iPhone 6 I have does the job.

            4. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Slavishly Copied

              >Does any silly commentard even remember the pre-iphone era?

              Yes, I do, actually. Do you?

              http://i.imgur.com/TF12she.gif

              1. anonymous boring coward Silver badge

                Re: Slavishly Copied

                Palm.. Yes?

                I remember the pre-mobile-phone era.

                I remember the one phone in the hallway era too.

        2. joeW

          Re "It's phone innovation was the capacitive screen"

          You mean the LG Prada's innovation?

      2. Mage Silver badge
        Boffin

        Re: Slavishly Copied

        "Only after Apple showed the way on how to create a usable interface on a mobile phone (because smartphones we already had) did the smartphone take off,"

        Actually yes, it was better than Symbian S60. But success was due to having first decent data plan and subsidised sales in mobile contract. The GUI was bought in from Fingerworks and other people you mostly never heard of had good phone GUIs before Apple. They didn't innovate anything to do with phones.

      3. AIBailey

        Re: Slavishly Copied

        Only after Apple showed the way on how to create a usable interface on a mobile phone (because smartphones we already had) did the smartphone take off, after which Google just copied the concept for Android

        I remember all the iPhone fans pissing themselves like an over-excited hyperactive puppy in a tennis ball factory when a previous release of IOS introduced Apple's latest "inovation" - a notification bar at the top of the screen where a user could see things such as recent messages, emails etc.

        Rather like my Android phone had been doing 4 years previously.

      4. Kunari

        Re: Slavishly Copied

        Apple didn't some up with the concept of a stylus either. The concept was out there before the Newton, though, it was one of the first to do handwriting recognition on a consumer product.

    2. Mark 85 Silver badge

      Re: Slavishly Copied

      Gobsmacking hipocrisy <sic>and lack of innovation.

      But doesn't all the media hype and drooling reporters and fans make up for it? I'm sure this will suddenly appear on at least a dozen mainstream media "must have" lists and followed swiftly by C-Suiters and Marketing types lapping it up.

    3. Steve Knox Silver badge
      Trollface

      Re: Slavishly Copied

      Gobsmacking hipocrisy and lack of innovation.

      Copied from Microsoft.

      1. Squander Two

        Re: Slavishly Copied

        >> Gobsmacking hipocrisy and lack of innovation.

        > Copied from Microsoft.

        That makes it a good idea, does it? I used to be a loyal Apple user because their OS was way better than Microsoft's. These days, Apple sell overpriced crap and have utter contempt for their customers, whilst Microsoft innovate the way Apple used to.

        The Surface Pro is a wonderful bit of kit, precisely because it's the kind of thing Apple used to come up with. And this is their answer to it? Pff.

        Competition is a wonderful thing. I wonder who'll be making the good stuff in ten years. Maybe someone we've not even heard of.

    4. Dave 126 Silver badge

      Re: Slavishly Copied

      >Stylus Copied from Samsung

      Seriously? Don't be so flippin daft.

      > (less well)

      You've used this new Apple stylus, have you? Tell us please, how does it compare to the Adobe stylus released earlier this year? In use.

      1. YorksinOaks

        Re: Slavishly Copied

        Well, having used QHD Note Pro 12.2 with "Wacom-like, full-bells-and-whistles pressure/angle sensitive" as another user put it, with the ability to launch apps directly from the stylus, I bemoan the lack of these.

        The standalone nature of the pencil (no slot) means many users will lose them and the acid test will be how many will shell out $99/£99 on a replacement.

        1. anonymous boring coward Silver badge

          Re: Slavishly Copied

          Really? People can't keep track of a $100 pencil?

          Well in that case, tough luck for them.

          A pencil holder can be easily integrated into a suitable Pro case. Problem solved.

    5. Lusty Silver badge

      Re: Slavishly Copied

      "Copied from Samsung"

      Hard not to, Samsung have tried literally every combination of chip, hardware and case design, thrown it all against a wall and seen what sticks. This is what allows them to be first to market with various things, because they remove the design phase and just try everything while Apple are busy testing and researching. Both ways work just fine, and both companies have good market share :)

    6. Mutton Jeff

      Re: Slavishly Copied

      Been reading this? http://hijinksensue.com/comic/surface-tension/

  8. hoverboy

    Embarrassing

    I long ago switched back to a mix of MS and Linux when Win7 and Ubuntu 12.04 both offered something that didn't suck too much and the stagnating OS X lost its unassailable lead. Since then it's been amusing to watch Apple's decline but this is truly horrific. Sure they'll keep making money (for a while) but a stylus? Painful to watch and a betrayal of everything Jobs stood for.

    1. Peter X

      Re: Embarrassing

      In fairness, Steve was correct in that a stylus was a crap *primary* input method for a small handheld device such as a phone. But for tablets, particularly for people artistically/design inclined (like many Apple customers), a Wacom-like, full-bells-and-whistles pressure/angle sensitive, isn't a bad *optional extra*.

      So whilst *every single* report has mentioned the stylus, and "oh Steve said they were wrong"... blah blah... I do think it's a useful addition.

      A keyboard on the other hand is crap idea for a tablet... acceptable as a third-party add-on for a small sub-set of users who do find a use, but for the majority, if you really need a keyboard, get a laptop, and then it'll sit better on your lap when you're using it.

      I've not heard if Apple got a place to store the "Pencil" in the device? Because where the Surface Pro 3 seems to be largely well designed, the thing that always made me laugh was how the storage place for it's stylus was... on the keyboard... which always struck me as being a typically MS-not-quite-as-well-thought-out-as-it-should-be solution!

      1. Squander Two

        Surface pen storage trivia

        > Because where the Surface Pro 3 seems to be largely well designed, the thing that always made me laugh was how the storage place for it's stylus was... on the keyboard... which always struck me as being a typically MS-not-quite-as-well-thought-out-as-it-should-be solution!

        Actually, the pen storage loop thing comes in the form of a sticker which you can attach wherever you like. You can put it on the keyboard, sure, but mine is to the side of the screen.

    2. Dave 126 Silver badge

      Re: Embarrassing

      >but a stylus? Painful to watch and a betrayal of everything Jobs stood for.

      It isn't a betrayal at all. A stylus on a phone is a useless hassle, if one is only making phone calls or entering text - the functions of the first iPhone.

      A tablet is different beast, and a tablet used as a graphics tablet even more so.

      1. fruitoftheloon
        Stop

        @Dave 126: Re: Embarrassing

        Dave,

        a stylus is 'useless on a phone', maybe for you matey...

        Moi and quite a lot of folk seem to be rather fond of the aforementioned on the Samsung Note X phablets.

        Have you TRIED writing/sketching on a Samsung Note device?

        Regards,

        jay

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: @Dave 126: Embarrassing

          Is that then not a phablet rather than a phone?

          On a phone, Jobs was right, a stylus is a fail. On a larger format not so much. But that format didn't meaningfully exist at the time.

          Context is everything - Given the number of time Jobs gets quoted *out of context* he may as well (posthumously) run for the leadership of the Labour Party.... :-)

          1. Tony Paulazzo

            Re: @Dave 126: Embarrassing

            On a phone, Jobs was right, a stylus is a fail. On a larger format not so much. But that format didn't meaningfully exist at the time.

            You do know he was alive for the ipad release don't you? a device that would've been perfect for - I don't know, taking notes and sketching things, maybe with a stylus like device... (except of course, Steve Jobs thought that requiring a stylus was a sign of total failure!).

          2. fruitoftheloon

            AC: Re: @Dave 126: Embarrassing

            AC,

            is it a phablet? not imho...

            Cheers,

            jay

        2. anonymous boring coward Silver badge

          Re: @Dave 126: Embarrassing

          A phablet isn't really a "phone" any more, is it?

          Just saying.

        3. werdsmith Silver badge

          Re: @Dave 126: Embarrassing

          Have you TRIED writing/sketching on a Samsung Note device?

          I haven't. Why would I?

          1. fruitoftheloon

            @Werdsmith: Re: @Dave 126: Embarrassing

            Werdsmith,

            good point, as to why? because it is good for writing and/or drawing/sketching..

            Ymdv.

            Jay

  9. Greg J Preece

    It's a fucking Surface. The way the multitasking is laid out, the stylus, the keyboard, everything - it's a fucking Surface.

    I'm going to watch every goon who slagged off the Surface when it came out because of their hive-mind fanboying now buy one of these and rave about how much better it is than everything else, aren't I?

    1. bobgameon

      And they will even explain to you how having a Smartphone OS on a 13" device is better than having a full Desktop OS.

      1. LDS Silver badge

        Next year, it will run OSX...

        1. Hellcat

          not so fast!

          First you have to have:

          the iPad Pro Retina

          the iPad Pro Air Retina

          the iPad Pro Mini

          the iPad Pro Mini Retina

          the iPad Pro Mini Air Retina

          then, and only then can you have...

          the iPad Mac Pro

          the iPad Mac Pro Retina

          the iPad Mac Pro Air Re.........

          You heard it here first, and I'm sure I missed off some models somehow.

          1. anonymous boring coward Silver badge

            Re: not so fast!

            The Mac Pro already is retina.

            Also, the iPad Mini's and Airs aren't called "retina" even when they are.

            The non-retina Mini seems to have been removed from the lineup now.

            Same for the phones.

            Only the laptops get called Retina in case there is an ambiguity about the screen resolution.

            So, sorry, you are confused.

            1. Hellcat

              Re: not so fast!

              You bet I'm confused...

              The fourth-generation iPad (originally marketed as iPad with Retina display, retrospectively marketed as the iPad 4)

              But so is Apple so that's ok.

    2. Arctic fox
      Thumb Up

      @Greg J Preece Re:"Its a fucking Surface"

      Just refer to it on every possible occasion as the iSurface whenever the "goons" are within earshot!

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I did like the medical software, but that was about it.

    Of course, it's a demo so it's probably not quite as swish in real life, but it did make for good material to watch. If that came with the device I'd be interested.

    I can see this potentially becoming a hit with graphics artists because it's like an untethered Wacom tablet with the computer built in, but that potential will only be realised if the graphics software is decent too. I know there's an iOS version of Pixelmator, maybe Affinity will follow soon (full Photoshop may be a bridge too far).

    For the rest, yawn. I am not thrilled to see so many people thrilled to be there and thrilled to introduce stuff, and if I got a pound for every time someone used the word "excited" there without any sign of it in their body language I could actually buy the MaxPad from that. Do they restrict the amount of different words they're allowed to use on stage to something that fits on an A5 sheet of paper when printed in double spaced 20 point Helvetica?

    As for the TV - yeah, we really need another smart TV that is *complicated* (yes, I said it, the Apple TV interface sucks IMHO. Badly). What I do need is a big screen TV that is SIMPLE to use so I can get one for older people without knowing I'll have to be on call for when they accidentally press a wrong button and select the wrong input, land in the menu or otherwise do something that confuses them. And, to be ultra-handy, is NOT reset to a start position by switching it on and off, because we naturally want persistence of that crap too. Oh, sorry, I forgot, old people don't feature in the world of TV suppliers, because none of them have parents. I told you there would be problems with so many test tube babies.

    Did anyone see anything about El Capitain? My brain went on strike after being exposed to so much fake enthusiasm so I may have missed it.

    As I said before, I generally like the gear they make, but I *so* hate the hype it has to be introduced with. I suspect I wouldn't last long in US commerce..

    1. HildyJ

      Re: I did like the medical software, but that was about it.

      As far as graphic artists or designers, the Surface already runs Photoshop or Gimp or the full Adobe Creative Suite or any CAD program you've never heard of out of the box (not to mention you can output your work to a DVD writer via the USB port). Why they didn't put OSX on it is beyond me.

      1. Kiwi Silver badge

        Re: I did like the medical software, but that was about it. @HildyJ

        As far as graphic artists or designers, the Surface already runs Photoshop or Gimp or the full Adobe Creative Suite or any CAD program you've never heard of out of the box (not to mention you can output your work to a DVD writer via the USB port). Why they didn't put OSX on it is beyond me.

        So, the surface comes with all these progams pre-installed just in case you want to use one of them? No? So doesn't really do them "out of the box" does it?

        Before you go too far in MS fanboism... I've decided to try a different flavour of Linux, and while I am backing up my old system I am typing this in using the web browser that's built into the install media for the new version (as well as full office suite, tools like GIMP and so on - all there truly "out of the box", not needing to be installed later!).. It can also do media (including DVD), all drivers already loaded (unlike the machine next to me where I've spent the last few hours hunting drivers for it - so much for 8's supposed massive driver support)...

        Oh, just noticed the "2015 and your windoze PC can still be pwned by a web page" headline. Apple stuff may be popular but quite rubbish, but it's still better and vastly more secure than windoze (quite justified by the looks of it!) by a long shot!

        Must be getting bitter in my old age.. To much windows machines and apple hype I guess...

        1. werdsmith Silver badge

          Re: I did like the medical software, but that was about it. @HildyJ

          >"Apple stuff may be popular but quite rubbish, but it's still better and vastly more secure than windoze "

          Where have you been for the last 6 months?

        2. Squander Two
          Devil

          Hats off, Kiwi. Hats off.

          > Oh, just noticed the "2015 and your windoze PC can still be pwned by a web page" headline.

          Oh, Jesus, that's brilliant. You've taken the word "Windows" and spelt it "Windoze", thus incorporating the word "doze", meaning a sleep or a nap, but implying the word "dozy", which originally meant "sleepy" but has come to mean a sort of vague slow stupidity -- and yet, said out loud, it still sounds exactly the same. Congratulations on a superbly executed pun, sir.

      2. anonymous boring coward Silver badge

        Re: I did like the medical software, but that was about it.

        You can't get 10 hours of run time in a sleek format running OSX.

        It's a desktop/latop OS, not a tablet OS.

        I'm sure Apple is working towards convergence (it's very obvious if you follow the efforts in OS X and iOS on a more detailed level), but we aren't there yet. I don't think Apple wants something half-baked like Windows 8/10.

        For creating artwork on iOS you have apps like Procreate, which would be a small fraction of the cost of any of Adobe's OSX offerings (which you have to RENT ffs), BTW. (Who would want to use desktop programs on a tablet anyway? I'm sure some do, but it seems like torture to me.)

        1. Alan Edwards

          Re: I did like the medical software, but that was about it.

          > You can't get 10 hours of run time in a sleek format running OSX.

          You could if you put a BFO battery in the keyboard. Put a Lightning connector on the keyboard to charge it's battery and charge the iPad Pro through the three-rings interface. Also, make the keyboard Bluetooth so you can mount the iPad Pro higher (more ergonomic). You'd only need to connect the two when the internal battery needs a boost from the keyboard.

          Swap the A9X for a Core-M (or Atom X7) and you've got a MacBook with detachable screen.

  11. Bad Beaver

    So sad. SO sad.

    So ... so they finally figure out how one could use their fondleslabs for actual work (*ugh*) via the miracle of THE PEN ... and then that $99 bugger only works with ONE model, the huge one? And it is good for ... doodeling, not a word about HWR? So they basically reinvented the Newton – but 50% dumber and much less mobile?

    For Pete's sake, find the guy with the cluestick and beg him for your pummeling!

    Sell me an iPad mini with pen support, including HRW or – heavens – an iPhone plus of the same nature. Is it really that hard? It's called a Newton. Look it up, you sold it 20 years ago. You own the patents. Samsung can do it, they just cannot get it right. But at least they're trying.

    What is it with this company?!

    1. anonymous boring coward Silver badge

      Re: So sad. SO sad.

      Ehh.. The Pencil requires new hardware support in the display... I suspect the iPad Air 3 will get that support. I hope so, as the Pro is a bit big for some uses. In the meantime my Wacom pen is woking ok on the Air.

      1. Bad Beaver

        Re: So sad. SO sad.

        Indeed it does and they could have put it into the whole lineup straight away. But no, that cow is to be milked another day. And then yet another day will come when they will magically rediscover the art of handwriting. "Wouldn't it be amazing if your iPad could read your handwriting and respond to pen gestures?" – yes, it would. Like a Newton from 20 years ago. Awesome!

  12. stucs201

    A comic from 3 years ago...

    http://hijinksensue.com/comic/surface-tension/

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: A comic from 3 years ago...

      A comic from 3 years ago...

      http://hijinksensue.com/comic/surface-tension/

      Sjeez - spot on. Does this guy do stock tips as well?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: A comic from 3 years ago...

        "Sjeez - spot on. Does this guy do stock tips as well?"

        The only mistake he made, and it was a small one, was to think the iPad with the keyboard cover would cost less than the Surface.

  13. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    So if Dr who uses an Apple Watch he'll get served new mum ads on his iPhone and get emails from mothercare?

    Can we not tell Apple the planet is going to be eaten by an enormous mutant star goat? We could build them an ark to save them, maybe an iArk?

  14. dajames Silver badge

    "Pencil", Eh?

    I wonder how that fits in with what these people:

    http://www.fiftythree.com/pencil

    do?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: "Pencil", Eh?

      A pencil is quite versatile. I prefer 2HB myself.

    2. Notas Badoff
      Devil

      Re: "Pencil", Eh?

      Change your crap's name. Not that big of a deal, Apple.

    3. Fred Flintstone Gold badge

      Re: "Pencil", Eh?

      I wonder how that fits in with what these people: http://www.fiftythree.com/pencil do?

      There have been a number of tests of iPad pens, and the new Wacom ones generally score better. Having said that, neither is really perfect when it comes to positioning so I'm interested to see how well this bigger iPad does it.

      I guess the telling will be if it starts to threaten the Wacoms of this world.

    4. Tim99 Silver badge
      Coat

      Re: "Pencil", Eh?

      @scoot76

      2B, or not 2B...

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: "Pencil", Eh?

        2B, or not 2B...

        ... that is the pencil?

        :)

  15. Justin Clift

    Whoooo Hooooo!

    I've wanted decent vector drawing in tablet form for ages. Bought a Samsung 12.2" tablet a while ago because it comes with a Stylus. Turned out to be a waste of money because Android has exactly zero good vector graphic apps. :(

    Almost went the Windows route (ugh) with a Cintiq Companion, but resisted.

    Now, I just need to get over my extreme dislike of Apple (the company). May or may not happen. :/

    1. War President
      Thumb Up

      Re: Whoooo Hooooo!

      "Almost went the Windows route (ugh) with a Cintiq Companion, but resisted."

      I bought a Cintiq Companion 2. It's a wonderful little (actually oversized and unwieldy) beast. I bought it primarily for illustration and am happily using Manga Pro 5 and InkScape, with occasional forays into Adobe Photoshop and CAD software. There are lots of pluses and some minuses (particularly the price).

      Minuses:

      It runs Windows. 16:9 widescreen. Seriously, this needs to be 5:4 or 4:3, I don't know what Wacom was thinking. The included stand is fiddly and only works for landscape orientation. No Surface Pro-ish cover + keyboard available. 3rd party covers are nonexistent, and Wacom doesn't sell one. You'll need a separate Bluetooth or wired keyboard. Included folio cover is nice, but the pen case and external power supply get stuffed into a pocket with no wiggle room and a high likelihood of causing damage to the screen at some point. I ended up putting just the tablet in the folio for protection and the folio in a small laptop bag with the pen case and power supply in an external pocket.

      Pluses:

      It runs Windows. Palm rejection (when using the stylus) is pretty decent, I'm curious as to how good it is in this iPad Pro. If you have the constitution, a spudger, and a heat gun, you can open it up and replace both the memory and the M.2 SSD to get a reasonably priced killer tablet. Throw VirtualBox on it and run OSX for fun...

      1. Justin Clift

        Re: Whoooo Hooooo!

        War President, thanks for the info. :)

        The lack of decent screen options is interesting. I recently started getting into CNC machining, so could likely make something to suit. Now... just wondering how big the market for such things would be... ;)

    2. fruitoftheloon
      Go

      @Justin Clift: Re: Whoooo Hooooo!

      Justin,

      same kit here, but we just use it for painting, which is fine.

      I have started checking out the various options for using the NotePro as a wired (the wireless solutions seem fairly cacky...) screen/digitiser connected to my Win 8.1 laptop running Adobe CC, may I suggest that you check it out too?

      Regards,

      jay

      1. Justin Clift

        Re: @Justin Clift: Whoooo Hooooo!

        Thanks for the suggestion Jay. :)

        I bought a Cintiq 13HD a while ago to see what the Cintiq's are like in actual use. Too small for my taste, so got a bigger one instead which I like. It's just not portable tho. :/

        (I need to do something with the Cintiq 13HD now too... anyone want it?)

        I wouldn't mind a Cintiq Companion 2 at some point, but it's not a priority for the moment. Will wait to see what people using this new iPad Pro say about it in actual use. ;)

  16. Bitbeisser

    And without a SD card slot, I won't by that one either...

  17. msknight Silver badge

    Hang on a cotton picking minute ... aimed at the enterprise user? Is iOS actually enterprise ready now? When did that happen?

    1. Mayhem

      When did that happen? The moment that the directors decided they wanted an iThing for working on.

      If enough directors want something, then it is already "enterprise ready", no matter how badly it breaks common sense or usability.

    2. Tim99 Silver badge

      @msknight

      Hang on a cotton picking minute ... aimed at the enterprise user? Is iOS actually enterprise ready now? When did that happen?

      It probably started when they partnered with IBM - Who, I suspect, have been trying to reduce a reliance on Microsoft; even before they sold their PC businesses. Now they have a partnership with Cisco too.

      I am retired now, but have noticed that small businesses now run on iPhones. As for big business, UNIX and the Mainframe never went away. As far as the MS Surface and desktop PCs are concerned, I worry that for most of the middle-level people in organizations that spend their time creating presentations with PowerPoint, writing internal documents with Word and "managing" by jockeying Excel is that their jobs are disappearing...

  18. Neil Barnes Silver badge

    Pencil

    HB pencil: £0.49

    A4 lined pad: £3.99

    Not having to check your bank account: Priceless...

  19. Mitoo Bobsworth
    Joke

    Apple Pencil

    Lemon Plank,

    Orange stick,

    Oh, what a wank.

  20. JDX Gold badge

    "four speakers touting three-times-louder volume"

    Oh great, just what trains, coffee shops and pubs need - someone showing their mate YouTube videos at 3X the volume.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: "four speakers touting three-times-louder volume"

      "four speakers touting three-times-louder volume"

      Oh great, just what trains, coffee shops and pubs need - someone showing their mate YouTube videos at 3X the volume.

      I see this as a cunning plan (my Lord) to generate more non-warranty repairs. This thing is too big for people to put in their back pocket like the iPhone 6 (although they could still sit on them, I guess), so they'll need another way to keep that revenue going. Causing people to be beaten over the head with their own equipment fits the bill nicely..

  21. Cody

    The new Nokia, running on empty

    It has been a good run, but its coming to an end, as this event shows. Their only new product is the watch, and this is not going to replace the margin that is being lost from the phones.

    The prices on the new iPad - if ever there was a niche product, this is it. Anytime anyone wants to they can bring in a similar Android or Windows based machine for less than half the price. A lot less.

    In tech there is an inevitable movement of the market towards equivalent features of an innovator at lower and lower prices, and since there are pretty much no entry barriers, this squeezes margin. For a long time Apple had a user experience lead with iOS in smartphones, but no more.

    This is exactly how it went with Nokia. They were over the top and the collapse was imminent, yet no-one could see it. The signs are there - its like cracks in the foundation - but the people in the building can't see anything.

    The ipod has gone over the top well and truly. The desktops are pretty much flat. The tablets are just going over the top as we speak. The phones will be next. And the only idea they have managed to come up with is a watch which has to be recharged every 24 hours?

    Buy long put options. Its over, its just that no-one can see it yet.

    1. dogged

      Re: The new Nokia, running on empty

      It's funny you say "new Nokia" because they seem to have "invented" the Lumia 2520

  22. Mage Silver badge
    Windows

    business tools from Microsoft and Adobe

    How many years ago did I say iOS would eventually replace OS X?

    *IF* this is a success you can wave bye bye to the regular skinny Mac, or Macs generally. Apple have no loyalty to customers. They have more control and income after sale for an iOS gadget than a OS X Mac.

    Apple is less locked into backward compatibility than Microsoft (Mac has been 68000, Power PC, X86-64, OS X series quite different to earlier OS9 etc). Apple users are just supposed to by the new version software.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Trollface

      Re: business tools from Microsoft and Adobe

      Saying goodbye to the skinny Mac was what I came here to post. I think it's on the cards, and I wonder if the destruction of OS X as a byword for stability and reliability was pre-planned or really a case of "just can't get the staff".

      Still, gotta thank St. Steve for going to Intel... Windows 10 flies on my iMac, after Yosemite crapped out once too many times also where it's been spending most of its time booted into.

      1. Tim99 Silver badge

        Re: business tools from Microsoft and Adobe

        @Peter Campbell

        As someone who uses both, I suggest that If you think that Windows 10 craps out less often than Yosemite you familiarize yourself with cognitive dissonance (Wikipedia link) - Yes, I did see the Troll icon.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Flame

          Re: business tools from Microsoft and Adobe

          I'd love to be able to show you how my desktop and menu bar looked after one too many Apple support 'fixes' (a WiFi icon that never showed itself as connected, despite being thus (bit like Windows Explorer redraws/icon losses that one, annoying but not show-stopping); constant issues with Time Machine/SAMBA disconnects over WiFi (the answer to that one, laughably, is 'use a wired connection'); unstable internal DNS (answers on a postcard...); where would you like me to end? DYLD_PRINT_FILE root privilege escalation, and on, and on, and on.

          I can't do that though, since I've just clean re-installed it. The kind of stuff you have to do with Windows boxes, you know?

          Maybe I'm just bitter since my last Mac before this one was a Performa 6200... remember them? http://lowendmac.com/2014/power-mac-and-performa-x200-road-apples/

          Cognitive dissonance - very clever stuff. Tend to take it as a euphemism for "straw man argument" these days. The only blue screens came from Apple's own unsigned drivers and so far has been signalled as a WONTFIX by the Cupertino mob.

          I wouldn't mind, I'm not even that much of a MSFT fanboy, how could I be when I spent the best part of two grand of my own cash on a piece of shiny Apple hardware? I am on the other hand appalled with Mac OS X's descent into hell.

          1. Tim99 Silver badge
            Flame

            Re: business tools from Microsoft and Adobe

            OK Peter,

            I look after a small mixed network for retirees. Of nine PCs, only one, a Dell touch screen has Windows 10. In the last few days it has:-

            Failed to finish a back-up to a removable HDD - Required a reboot.

            Been unable to write to a USB drive even when displayed in WE - Required a reboot.

            Lost a connection to a NAS in WE (In spite of be able to ping it) - Required a reboot.

            Been unable to print to a shared printer (In spite of be able to ping it) - Required a reboot.

            Edge was unable to connect to the Internet (In spite of be able to ping it) - Required a reboot.

            Mouse disabled after using the touchscreen but keyboard still worked - Required a reboot.

            Keyboard not functioning correctly after using the touchscreen but mouse worked - Required a reboot.

            Scheduler has apparently run tasks without them being logged, or showing in History - Not fixed.

            -------------------------------------------------------------------

            During the same period on the same network a 2006 MacBook Pro with Yosemite ran without incident. It is mains only as the battery has died, and it only has 2GB RAM so it runs fairly slowly, but it has not been rebooted.

            My 2011 iMac has frozen in Mail twice, but has come back after a Forced-Quit. Removing 120 Flags on the 2300 messages in 4 Inboxes seems to have fixed it (Yes, I am a slut).

            I tend to agree that Yosemite, is one of the less stable versions of OS X, but based on my experience, the implication that it is less reliable than Windows 10 seems to me not to be a "straw man argument".

          2. Tim99 Silver badge
            Gimp

            Re: business tools from Microsoft and Adobe

            Peter,

            I too have seen the TimeMachine/SAMBA problem with WiFi and a NAS. We fixed it by locking the IP address for that machine on our WiFi/ADSL Modem/Router/DHCP Server. The DNS was set be read from the same router.

            Cheers, Tim

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Pint

              Re: business tools from Microsoft and Adobe

              Ta for your reasoned replies. Will give that a go, since my NAS/WiFi router/DHCP is homebaked, should be a cinch.

              With regards to your woes in Win 10, it seems one man's meat is another's poison. I've used most of the above devices (NAS, USB peripherals, etc.) with no problems. Zip, zero, nada. To the point even I'm amazed at the stability.

              I'll hope for better with El Capitan in a few weeks, sincerely hope that gets my Mac back on track with the OS it was designed for.

              It's Friday, that means it's beer o'clock. I'm buying, for once... ;-)

  23. This post has been deleted by its author

  24. Individual #6/42

    You can rest on the screen

    The innovation is that you can rest your hand on the screen. It's detected as <>iPencil and so is ignored whist writing. There's no engineering innovation, that's never been Apple's way. They've just built their own Surface for those that want one. It runs Office, Onedrive and iOS apps so you can work as you like. Expensive but reduces cannibalisation by the productivity crowd.

    1. ChrisC

      Re: You can rest on the screen

      Assuming you're correct about being able to touch the screen whilst using the stylus, and the other commenters above who've said this isn't possible got the wrong end of the stylus...err...stick, then no, it's really not an innovation, as that would imply no-one has done it before, which they have.

      1. Individual #6/42
        Thumb Up

        "First of all, it incorporates palm rejection"

        http://mashable.com/2015/09/09/hands-on-ipad-pro-apple-pencil/#x1w1UXMVFakG

      2. bobgameon

        Re: You can rest on the screen

        You can put your hands on the screen while using the pencil. They showed it in the demo. They used there fingers to position an on-screen ruler while drawing a line. I'm pretty sure both were touching the screen at the same time.

  25. Mutton Jeff
    Happy

    The only thing we didn't reinvent was the alphabet.

    Google dig?

  26. Disgruntled
    Pint

    Parking

    I hope Apple's lawyers have parking reserved at the patent court

  27. chappers
    FAIL

    MaxiPad

    See it now fits

  28. Bota

    I've never seen...

    Such a desperate attempt at a cash grab. Apart from the holding photos to see see a little movie reminiscent of vine, I don't know what else is so new? Imagine this monster on one selfie stick bahaha I hope traffic takes these folks out.

    This is what the beginning of the end looks like.

  29. Salts
    Trollface

    But ...

    Will it run Linux, Mint 17.2 obviously :-)

  30. Nixyp

    Microsoft Bod on Stage - Good Move MS/Apple!

    After having a chance to chat with MS Staff the other week in an meeting it does not surprise me that Apple had a MS Bod on stage there. MS have seem to have realised that you can't build/flog stuff to all IT markets. So why fight in a market that you will never have the largest share of, namely the fondleslab market place. Better to work with the market leaders and extend the large market shares you already have. In MS case this is business software (Office, Yammer etc). MS seem to be making the right moves now and embracing Apple hardware. I for one would love to have the same experience regardless of hardware and in any location. MS and Apple can provide this now. Dunno why this collaboration sounds a bad move to some people.

    1. Tim99 Silver badge
      Trollface

      Re: Microsoft Bod on Stage - Good Move MS/Apple!

      As more people now use a phone/tablet to use the interweb, perhaps MS are concentrating on servers, the Cloud and their Office products. The way that MS are upsetting their hardware partners and SIs, I wonder whether they think that the Windows PC is unimportant, hence the iPad demo.

      I have used a Troll icon, but maybe it isn't >>===============>

  31. Matthew 17

    Powerful device

    hobbled by being stuck with a smartphone OS.

    Put OSX on it and then I'd be interested.

  32. .stu
    Facepalm

    " Apple Pencil, a Lightning-powered stylus"

    Can't wait to see the press report of some stupid-assed fanboi who got fried while trying to recharge their Apple Pencil by holding it aloft in a thunderstorm.

  33. TRT Silver badge

    4 pens...

    one in each corner and you can use it as a table!

  34. threefires

    Yawn.

    I just ordered the new 7" touchscreen for a raspberry pi for $80. Screw Apple.

    1. herman Silver badge

      Re: Yawn.

      Yah, but you need about 100 of those to get the same number of pixels, so then it is not so cheap anymore...

  35. Jean-Paul

    A missed opportunity

    such a shame this doesn't run full OS X. Without that I just can't take the Pro element seriously.

    I like this form factor on the move, so much so that since getting my Surface Pro I haven't touched my MacBook Air. However for it to be Pro I'd like to run full applications and plug it into a dock when at home or the office and get the full desktop and full application experience. For the money and the size of the device that shouldn't have been too hard I would have thought.

    In the mean time I will remain with my Surface Pro 3.

  36. Adam T

    Interesting

    I come here for the jolly sarcasm, true, but sometimes I'm on the other side of the fence.

    As an artist I'm actually keen to try one out. I've tried Surface and it sucks for illustration; I've got two Wacom Cintiqs (inc the latest 27" model) and a bunch of Intuos tablets from over the years, and - despite being the market leader - they suck, because Wacom don't need to compete, and their technology has barely been improved over the years while their drivers get worse with every passing year.

    So, I'm looking forward to seeing if Apple can do stylus better than Wacom, if only to drill up some new imperative to innovate.

    Heck I might even buy one if the wife lets me.

  37. herman Silver badge

    Bad fingertip

    My wife lost a fingertip when she was a teenager, so she prefers working with a Samsung Galaxy Tab which comes with a stylus, so will Apple now get sued by Samsung for copying the look and feel of the Galaxy tablets?

  38. Jason Hindle

    I think a niche with the creatives, rather than the corporates

    Those who've actually picked it up talk about it's lightness. Owning both a (none pro) Surface 3 and an iPad Air 2, I can appreciate that. The Microsoft device is quite a bit thicker/heavier. I don't see sales people wanting an iPad Pro, rather than the MacBook they carry already (complete with a VM running a corporate Windows build*).

    * And the Surface Pro can do that too (i.e. for running up IE6 to access legacy apps, or a Linux VM for doing real work).

  39. TRT Silver badge

    Ah but the thing you've not noticed about the Apple Pencil is...

    That it has Bluetooth, a speaker and Jawbone transduction technology built in. Technology for the everyman. A pencil you can stick behind your ear and make calls with.

  40. AutomationGeek
    Go

    Must resist

    So shiny!

  41. Kepler
    Headmaster

    For the love of God, can't people SAY what they actually MEAN? Is that too much to ask?

    Time to put my Grammar Nazi hat on again! (Although as any good Grammar Nazi knows, this is actually a matter of usage and basic word-meanings rather than grammar.)

    "Other features touted by Schiller were improved GPU and CPU performance (Apple claims the CPU is 1.8 times more powerful than the iPad Air 2 and the GPU two times more powerful) and four speakers touting three-times-louder volume."

    I think it's safe to assume that if the CPU were actually 2.8 times as powerful as that in the iPad Air 2, Apple would have said so. Surely the new CPU is only 1.8 times as powerful, and only 80% more powerful — not 180% more powerful, as the article claims.

    Likewise with the GPU: If it really were 3 times as powerful as that in the iPad Air 2, Apple would have said so using the number 3 instead of 2, since 3 is bigger than 2, and therefore more impressive. ("Twice as fast" sounds more impressive than "one time faster" or even "100% faster", etc.)

    (Technically, that the GPU is 3 times as powerful as the old one is in fact exactly what Apple said! Or at least what Shaun Nichols said, and attributed to Apple. But it almost certainly is not what Apple or Nichols meant.)

    And likewise with the speakers: If they really are "three times louder", then they are in fact four times as loud. But in all probability, what was actually meant is merely that they are three times as loud, not three times louder.

    As noted parenthetically above, it is impossible to tell whether the mistakes here were Apple's or Shaun's. But even if they were Apple's — as I am happy to assume — Shaun should have verified the actual numbers and then translated what Apple said into language that is not contextually ambiguous. The reader should not be left — let alone repeatedly and consistently, as here — to figure out that what the writer meant is (probably) different from what the writer said.

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