back to article 'Fix these Windows 10 Horrors': Readers turn their guns on Redmond

“Clearly the first year of ‘free’ is really beta testing – what should a sensible IT manager do?” asks one Reg reader Down Under. I’ve heard this from a few of you and collected your thoughts. You’ve no doubt already read Tim Anderson’s review and Trevor Pott's sysadmin’s view. There are plenty of other concerns and questions …

  1. Novex

    No Control of Updating

    MS lost me as a potential Windows 10 customer with the forced updates. Much like Mr Potts, I see not being able to control such things as a complete deal breaker. So I'm staying with Windows 7 for the foreseeable future, and at least until MS comes back to its senses and allows us as users/power users/admins control of exactly what updates get onto a PC.

    1. TheVogon Silver badge

      Re: No Control of Updating

      "“I eat, breathe and sleep in what some would call old-school, on-premise domains."

      All this works with both on premise and Azure AD just fine.

      " Every time I go near something new from Microsoft now, its three, four or more stupid logins, with access credential demands and licence-trudging misery"

      Not here - single sign-on works just fine and licensing is a simple yearly true up, and is never a front end user issue. Sounds like you need to get someone competent in Office 365 / AD involved?

      "I'm staying with Windows 7 for the foreseeable future, and at least until MS comes back to its senses and allows us as users/power users/admins control of exactly what updates get onto a PC"

      I think you are misinformed here - admins still have full control of this - assuming you are using the enterprise edition of Windows 10 - as you should be in any sort of business function. Users should never have control of this is a business imo (other than deferring reboots to a convenient time).

      1. PiltdownMan

        Re: No Control of Updating

        The word is PREMISES. Premise is a proposition, not a building

        1. Old Handle

          Re: No Control of Updating

          What if it's a small building and has only one?

        2. TheOtherHobbes

          Re: No Control of Updating

          >The word is PREMISES.

          It used to be "on-site" until the illiterate marketing types got their brains on it.

          Unless "on premise" is some kind of failed ninja NLP attempt to subvert everyone's thinking in an holistic synergised brand-ward direction.

      2. JustNiz

        Re: No Control of Updating

        Well done for drinking Microsoft's Koolaid so deeply that you are even using the standard Microsoft response to any/all problems users encounter with crappy Microsoft software: Nobody else has these problems, all your problems are imaginary.

        1. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge
          Big Brother

          Re: No Control of Updating

          Nobody else has these problems, all your problems are imaginary.

          HELLO, MICROSOFT HELPDESK. HOW CAN I MAKE YOU SUICIDAL TODAY?

        2. kb
          FAIL

          he ain't drinking the Koolaid, he getting PAID!

          Seriously go to any Windows 10 articles on the tech sites, the astroturf is insane. C-Net, Slashdot, you are suddenly seeing accounts that haven't posted since the release of Windows 8 all coming to life and singing the praises and shooting down any and all doubters..coincidence? Bullshit its good old fashioned ham fisted astroturfing!

          So when you see somebody trying to shoot down all complaints with Windows 10? Look at their history, do they only have a couple posts per year? Are they all "on message" focused on this or that corp (as some astroturfers are for hire) with little deviation? Then you may be dealing with an astroturfer.

          And if you don't think MSFT is bringing out the astroturf this round? I'm sorry but all you have to do is read the comments during the Win 10 beta and compare it to now. During the beta plenty of praise AND complaints went completely unnoticed, now during the release? Every.single.complaint. seems to be getting addressed by somebody spouting the company line, while using plenty of market speak like "services integration" and "user experience"....yeah MSFT is breaking out that big old wallet and trying to make sure the bad buzz doesn't give them another Windows 8, anybody that has hung out on the forums of some of the sites I named can easily spot the change in tone. It was the exact same with Windows 8/8.1. with their "UI innovations" and "removing the line between PC and tablet" and just as hamfisted.

      3. TimeMaster T
        FAIL

        Re: No Control of Updating

        "... admins still have full control of this - assuming you are using the enterprise edition of Windows 10 "

        Many small business (<100 users) don't use the Enterprise edition since they only buy new computers on an "as needed" basis when a new employee gets hired or an older computer cant be repaired. In my experience they are using a mix of Pro and Home depending on if its the receptionist's or developers computer.

        I can see Microsoft's forced updates causing more than a few heart attacks among the lone sysadmins who have to manage these offices.

      4. fruitoftheloon
        Stop

        @TheVogon: Re: No Control of Updating

        TV,

        a question for you: where would a small business (me, the missus & a cat) purchase a 'business' win 10 licence from?

        Iirc the esteemed Mr Potts also posed a similar question.

        Cheers,

        Jay

    2. nkuk

      Re: No Control of Updating

      I'm not going to upgrade to Windows 10 until updates are optional, only a few weeks ago Microsoft used Windows Update, which was intended for security and stability updates, to push their "Get Windows 10" nagware that is a pain to get rid of, goodness knows what they have planned to shove down to everyone once updates are mandatory. "Get Windows Phone" would be my first guess, as MS seem to consider my PC as their advertising space, and probably more so as they are giving Windows 10 away and will probably be keen to monetize the user base as soon as they can.

      1. Roland6 Silver badge

        Re: No Control of Updating

        >MS seem to consider my PC as their advertising space

        They started doing that when they released Office Starter...

    3. Platinumjsi

      Re: No Control of Updating

      You can disabled driver updates.

      On Home you cant disable the standard updates which I am totally fine with, I have seen so many home users who have never updated Windows.

      On Pro which most power users will be using you can defer the updates for 30 days iirc which is enough time for any issues to be identified and fixed.

      Enterprise you can defer for over a year I think.

      So really from my point of view I don't see why people see this as such a big thing, 95% of Windows users need forced updates as they will likely not do it themselves leaving there machine vulnerable and a potential risk for other users.

      1. Hans 1 Silver badge

        Re: No Control of Updating

        * Posts by Platinumjsi

        2 posts • joined 29 Feb 2012

        So some MS employee ... maybe Vogon's second account, who knows ... ;-)

      2. Physeter

        Re: No Control of Updating

        Home windows version has ALWAYS shipped with automatic updating turned on by default, as I recall. In order to make it stop, you have to know what you're doing in the first place.

        Pro can only delay them for 30 days? What if the update contains new functionality that you don't want or need? I don't approve of Windows selling me a product and then telling me I'm not allowed to decide what to do with it; they need to make my decisions for me.

        1. Joe User
          Thumb Down

          Re: No Control of Updating

          Physeter: "Home windows version has ALWAYS shipped with automatic updating turned on by default, as I recall. In order to make it stop, you have to know what you're doing in the first place."

          In Windows 7 Home, it is a simple matter to change the update setting to "Check for updates but let me choose whether to download and install them."

          In Windows 10 Home, the only setting is "Open wide, here come your updates."

          1. Someone Else Silver badge
            Coat

            @Joe User -- Re: No Control of Updating

            In Windows 10 Home, the only setting is "Open wideBend over, here come your updates."

            There, FTFY

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: @Joe User -- No Control of Updating

              In Windows 10 Home, the only setting is "Open wideBend over, here come your updates."

              There, properly fixed it.

      3. 420Penguin

        Re: No Control of Updating

        So you're telling me if I'm a home user and want to delay updates for 30 days I have to pay $80 more for the Pro version?

        I call bullsh*t!

      4. DDearborn

        Re: No Control of Updating

        Hmmm

        The problem as it were is that many people, of which I am one like to have the freedom of choice. It is my computer, my software, and therefore by rights my choice. Redmond is taking that away. And 30 days for pro users like me simple isn't enough. I want the option to NEVER except specific upgrades. As others have already pointed out MS has a very nasty habit not unlike the industry as a whole to piggyback piles of crap disguised as "updates". At this point I will not upgrade to 10 until my freedom of choice is restored. Hells bells they used to call these "personal" computers for a reason. MS and company want to return to the days of dumb terminals. F them.

        1. Joe 35
          FAIL

          Re: No Control of Updating

          "It is my computer, my software, and therefore by rights my choice."

          I think you'll find it ISN'T your software.

        2. BongoJoe

          Re: No Control of Updating

          Exactly. Anyone remember Microsoft's Search? Anyone with half a wit would have refused to have that installed.

          What would the point be of delaying the installation for ninety days? Any issues of it nobbling your machine's speed wouldn't have been fixed in that time. I have lost count of the number of updates and improvements which haven't been fixed at all and are still not fixed.

          In my view it's clear: the user/admin needs to have control as to what goes onto each machine,.

      5. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

        Re: No Control of Updating

        "You can disabled driver updates."

        Can I disable Sliverlight? .Net?, 5893 various language updates for languages I don't speak or read? Or are these all mandatory installs/updates now?

      6. Remy Redert

        Re: No Control of Updating

        Yes. You can disable driver updates. After Microsoft pushed a dud Nvidia driver that broke every computer with an Nvidia videocard for a few days until Microsoft fixed it, except for those people who happen to know that's there's a tool hidden away on Microsoft's website that allows you to roll back an update that broke your computer. Temporarily of course.

        Sometimes I don't want to defer an update, I want to NEVER get it. The 95% of the Windows users who need forced updates probably don't know how to turn the automatic updates off in the first place.

    4. This post has been deleted by its author

    5. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: No Control of Updating

      It can be controlled in the enterprise via group policy. Just the home consumers are fucked.

    6. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: No Control of Updating

      "So I'm staying with Windows 7 for the foreseeable future, and at least until MS comes back to its senses and allows us as users/power users/admins control of exactly what updates get onto a PC."

      What MS is saying is that you can have a free-update from your W7 Pro but only to something you don't really want. If you want W10 Pro you've got to buy it again. This is MS. Did you really think they'd changed their spots?

      1. TonyJ Silver badge

        Re: No Control of Updating

        "...What MS is saying is that you can have a free-update from your W7 Pro but only to something you don't really want. If you want W10 Pro you've got to buy it again. This is MS. Did you really think they'd changed their spots?..

        Where did you get the idea that if you have Win 7 pro you cannot get Win 10 Pro?

        From: http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/Windows-10-specifications

        Windows 7

        From Edition -------------------- > To Edition

        Windows 7 Starter -------------------- > Windows 10 Home

        Windows 7 Home Basic -------------------- > Windows 10 Home

        Windows 7 Home Premium -------------------- > Windows 10 Home

        Windows 7 Professional -------------------- > Windows 10 Pro

        Windows 7 Ultimate -------------------- > Windows 10 Pro

      2. Morteus

        Re: No Control of Updating

        "What MS is saying is that you can have a free-update from your W7 Pro but only to something you don't really want. If you want W10 Pro you've got to buy it again."

        Not according to their Specifications page - you get like for like.

    7. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: No Control of Updating

      Secure Boot = antitrust

      Want a cheap laptop? Better check if you can boot your non-Windows OS.

      1. BinkyTheMagicPaperclip Silver badge

        Re: No Control of Updating

        Not again. NO IT ISN'T.

        Secure boot in UEFI MUST accept additional keys so that alternative operating systems can be run.

        Unless you're using an embedded system, in which case you're out of luck.

        1. Craig100
          Linux

          Re: No Control of Updating

          Just bought a lovely Dell M3800. Installed Linux Mint 17.2 on it with secure boot switched off, UEFI boot on. HDD is encrypted at boot as is the users home directory. Perfect. Windows is only EVER used in a VM for development. I never allow it to touch the iron or rely on it for email, etc.

        2. Jack of Shadows Silver badge

          Re: No Control of Updating

          I don't know what computers you've seen, but my media/filer system has a whole panel where you can play with UEFI keys. eMachines EL1850 which is in no way a "real" machine but bright enough for the task at hand.

      2. TheVogon Silver badge

        Re: No Control of Updating

        "Better check if you can boot your non-Windows OS."

        No need to check, Microsoft mandated that being able disable secure boot is a requirement of it being able to run Windows (except for Windows RT).

    8. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: No Control of Updating

      Bobbins.

      If you got some clue and actually read stuff rather than the FUD you seem to have consumed, you would know;

      a) The consumers get all the updates forced onto them. This is so Great Aunt Nancy with her Asus Netbook she bought from Tesco can't start pushing malware to all and sundry via her TalkTalk broadband.

      b) If you're running Enterprise versions of Windows 10, you still use WSUS/SCCM to manage the updates and you still can defer up to 3 months. So your existing OAT processes still stand.

      c) If you have machines that you really don't want to update, then you can use Mission Critical mode, which deploys patches much like service packs today, but you'll have to pay a tiny bit of an uplift on your Enterprise Agreement for support for those machines, much like you would if you wanted to keep Windows XP now.

    9. Disgruntled

      Re: No Control of Updating

      Don't worry, there'll be a compulsory update to give you control over updates ;-)

    10. ThunderCougarFalconBird

      Re: No Control of Updating

      This is my biggest problem as well. I have a bunch of peripherals that break when Microsoft tries to send a "patch" for it. Specifically, I have a re-badged Lexmark printer that when Microsoft sends an update to it, the network scanning feature breaks. The Microsoft driver for the Lexmark printer doesn't have the scanner drivers in it...This is also a similar problem with my video driver and my USB to Parallel converter. No. I won't upgrade to Windows 10 until they give us some kind of work-around for this.

  2. Trollslayer Silver badge

    Am I the only person who sees this as desperation?

    Simply a modest fee for maintenance of Windows 7/8.1 would have kept me happy.

    My car gets maintained for a fee.

    1. Mark 85 Silver badge

      Yes, but your car works when you want it and does what you want it to. It's presumably safe and reasonably secure. You can say when service will be performed or not performed.

      1. Dwarf Silver badge

        Cars

        Taking the car analogy further, my car alwas has the steering wheel and peddles in the same place each time I come out to use it and the paint job doesn't get really drab when someone decides they know best and changes it.

        Perhaps Microsoft should look a the car industry - there is not one super brand, there are lots of different ones that meet different peoples needs and thet customise them to how it works best for them.

        I'm sticking with Win7 until either they fix things, or I flip to my Linux box to prime time. My new Pc comes in about 12 months time and 10 won't be going anywhere near it.

        1. Cynic_999 Silver badge

          Re: Cars

          "

          Taking the car analogy further, my car alwas has the steering wheel and peddles in the same place each time I come out to use it

          "

          And so it should unless there is a good reason to change - such as removing the clutch pedal in cars fitted with automatic transmission. Maybe someone can explain why one of the Linux versions changed the "close window" button from top right to top left?

          1. TimeMaster T

            Re: Cars

            "Maybe someone can explain why one of the Linux versions changed the "close window" button from top right to top left?"

            Maybe whoever was in charge of the GUI thought it would be better?

            Or perhaps they wanted to give people more options?

            Of the many things I like about Linux is if you don't like a particular GUI you can change it. Either reconfigure the one your using or switch out the manager entirely.

          2. Pigeon

            Re: Cars

            Dear cynic, I use Motif window manager. The close button has been top-left since the 90s. I think MS windows put it on the right. The old slash/backslash annoyance comes to mind here.

            It's a minor problem. More annoying are the fancy desktops which don't have hints and keyboard shortcuts.

          3. BongoJoe

            Re: Cars

            I think that Microsoft have designed my latest vehicle.

            The windscreen wiper control wossit arm thing is on the right hand side of my steering wheel but unlike everything else it's now top for off and not bottom and the gear lever has moved to a different position and the handbrake has moved to the other side of the driver's seat.

            Further proof in that MS designed the vehicle: the buttons, knobs and such on the heater all move but nothing happens.

        2. nematoad Silver badge
          Headmaster

          Re: Cars

          "... my car alwas has the steering wheel and peddles in the same place each time..."

          Oh, what's it selling in the same place?

          It couldn't be a dictionary.

          I think you meant to say "pedals".

          From dictionary.com:

          verb (used with object), peddled, peddling.

          1. to carry (small articles, goods, wares, etc.) from place to place for sale at retail; hawk.

          2. to deal out, distribute, or dispense, especially in small quantities:

          to peddle radical ideas.

          3. to sell (drugs) illicitly.

          verb (used without object), peddled, peddling.

          4. to go from place to place with goods, wares, etc., for sale at retail.

          5. to occupy oneself with trifles; trifle.

          1. OliverJ

            @nematoad Cars

            5. to occupy oneself with trifles; trifle.

            Oh, the irony...! :-)

    2. Dan 55 Silver badge

      They're going to have the same problem with Windows 10, only worse. In an always-updating OS, what's the excuse for not updating it with new features five years from now? But who's going to pay for those updates when everybody's already got Windows 10?

      1. Boris the Cockroach Silver badge

        Thats a point

        Quote : They're going to have the same problem with Windows 10, only worse. In an always-updating OS, what's the excuse for not updating it with new features five years from now?

        How will commecial software devs test their software against windows 10 if windows 10 keeps changing all the time?

        StarCAM, as tested on windows 10 on 21-07-16.... please dont use it on a later version M$ changed the driver interface software....

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      I see it as trying to copy the opposition. Opposition in the IBM PC clone market, not the personal computer market in general, unless Apple have a backflip on MacOS X on non-Apple kit.

      The alternatives are gaining popularity, and fundamentally because they give users choice. Want an early 90s desktop with modern applications? No problems: install one of dozens of window managers, set up .xinitrc and it's just like the old days. Want something shiny? KDE and Gnome are right there.

      You pick and choose what you want, and crucially, choose when to update.

      1. the spectacularly refined chap

        Want an early 90s desktop with modern applications? No problems: install one of dozens of window managers, set up .xinitrc and it's just like the old days.

        Have you actually tried it recently? A lot of classic Unix apps have been royally shat on by the Linux community who seemingly show blatant disregard for anyone using anything else. Many apps simply don't work correctly on a strictly ICCCM-compliant WM. Examples that come to mind - both Open- and LibreOffice will tend to dump core (and keep open documents locked) if you have the temerity to close the app via such a window manager. Firefox can't even maximise properly on some systems - it gets bigger all right, it just ends up four times the size of the screen.

        Oh, and you still have most of KDE or GNOME running (and probably both), the needlessly chunky and redundant libraries anyway, if not the small veneer on top. Yes, I just love pissing away 200MB memory so that some anonymous dev can express his opinion on what an OK button should look like, even though it matches nothing else on the system.

        That's without even getting me started on the desktop-oriented random distribution of detritus that such apps bring. Personally it appears to me that if I write a document on project Example then sticking it in ~/example would be eminently sensible. If I download e.g. a datasheet in support of it then equally I may want it in ~/example/data. It's good to know that I'm utterly mistaken in that and I should naturally follow the Windows 3.x practice where a document's location is based on where it came from rather than what it is - the "correct" locations are obviously ~/Documents and ~/Downloads respectively.

        To drive the point home, bonus points for re-creating those directories each and every time the program runs even if nothing ever gets saved there. "Something shiny" that looks pretty is obviously much more important than the elimination of pointless distractions when actually trying to do some work...

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Want an early 90s desktop with modern applications? No problems: install one of dozens of window managers, set up .xinitrc and it's just like the old days.

          Have you actually tried it recently? A lot of classic Unix apps have been royally shat on by the Linux community who seemingly show blatant disregard for anyone using anything else. Many apps simply don't work correctly on a strictly ICCCM-compliant WM. Examples that come to mind - both Open- and LibreOffice will tend to dump core (and keep open documents locked) if you have the temerity to close the app via such a window manager. Firefox can't even maximise properly on some systems - it gets bigger all right, it just ends up four times the size of the screen.

          Let's see… I'm typing this in Firefox 37 running within FVWM 2.6.5 on X.org server 1.16.4 and Linux kernel 4.0.2. I also use Gnumeric or LibreOffice for the office suite just fine and numerous other applications such as The Gimp, Inkscape, and of course gVim.

          So yes, I have tried it, in fact, it's what I use now and have been for some time. FVWM was a very common desktop in the early-mid 90s, and still around today. The modern version is pretty much as things were years ago.

          As for downloads, I get asked where I want to put something, that's how I've always done it for close to 20 years and how I intend to keep doing it.

          Documents are put where I want them, not where the computer thinks they should go, this works with our business work flow, where we have separate directories for each project on a file server. A local ~/Documents tree would need all sorts of fancy synchronisation to work. Instead, we just mount CIFS from a server and throw it in there. Job done, no fuss.

          Your only honest answer to the above will be, "I have no idea whatsoever." Just like 99.9% of computer users faced with the choices *you* are referring to. Apart from a small percentage of computer geeks, "choice" means "confusion". In a managed environment, the IT department will understand the choices and make suitable ones for the users. In an unmanaged environment, the user will either need to hire a professional or end up making bad choices, so it makes sense for Microsoft to make choices on behalf of its *non-professional* system users.

          It's a big reason why the masses have not taken to Linux. Installing Linux usually involves making a choice or answering a question that the average home user does not even slightly understand, which immediately brands it as "too difficult".

          You're right of course. We should remove all possible choice, because people find it too confusing. We should mandate that everyone's computer should be exactly the same, right down to every bit on the hard drive/SSD, look the same, work the same, have the exact same CPU, exact same RAM, exact same amount of non-volatile storage, exact same peripherals, same OS, same software.

          Or perhaps you can realise that life is about choice. If they want to choose whatever desktop environment their OS comes with, they are free to make that choice on Linux. Windows and MacOS X you just get force-fed whatever Microsoft/Apple think is appropriate at the time.

          I'm not saying people should be forced into choices, but they should always have the personal right to decide for themselves what works for them.

          How will commecial software devs test their software against windows 10 if windows 10 keeps changing all the time?

          If companies' Linux support for devices is anything to go by, I will be telling Windows 10 users: welcome to our world. A world where a company does a port of their driver to a version of the kernel, leaves it 18 months, then wonders why you're filing tickets about the driver they haven't bothered to maintain. I battled Moxa over this years ago.

          1. the spectacularly refined chap

            Many apps simply don't work correctly on a strictly ICCCM-compliant WM.

            Let's see… I'm typing this in Firefox 37 running within FVWM 2.6.5 on X.org server 1.16.4 and Linux kernel 4.0.2. I also use Gnumeric or LibreOffice for the office suite just fine and numerous other applications such as The Gimp, Inkscape, and of course gVim.

            So, version 2.6.5. It adopted EWMH from version 2.5 onwards, and thus no longer pure ICCCM. Now ask yourself why they had to deviate from the prior and well established conventions.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              So, version 2.6.5. It adopted EWMH from version 2.5 onwards, and thus no longer pure ICCCM. Now ask yourself why they had to deviate from the prior and well established conventions.

              Who cares? It works and behaves (to me, the user) pretty much exactly as it did years ago. So for all intents and purposes, my desktop has "not changed" in so far as it looks pretty much identical, acts identical (from the user perspective) and behaves the way I want.

              I have the user experience I chose. The fact that it achieves this with more modern techniques is a win-win: I can have the modern applications that go with it, but with mostly the feel of what I've been used to for years.

              1. the spectacularly refined chap

                Who cares? It works and behaves (to me, the user) pretty much exactly as it did years ago. So for all intents and purposes, my desktop has "not changed" in so far as it looks pretty much identical, acts identical (from the user perspective) and behaves the way I want.

                Who cares? You do. It was you that advanced the proposed advantage that any old WM from twenty years ago works fine on current system. They don't. Now it supposedly doesn't matter because you have found a modern WM that happens to keep you happy.

                That is a massive volte-face, not a justification of your position. If your preferred WM was twm, mwm, olwm or any of countless others you are shit out of luck.

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Who cares? You do. It was you that advanced the proposed advantage that any old WM from twenty years ago works fine on current system. They don't. Now it supposedly doesn't matter because you have found a modern WM that happens to keep you happy.

                  That is a massive volte-face, not a justification of your position. If your preferred WM was twm, mwm, olwm or any of countless others you are shit out of luck

                  When I said "want an early 90s desktop", I was referring to the look and feel. That's what affects me directly as a user. How does it appear on the screen? How do I open an application? How do I close it? How do I arrange them on the screen? How do I customise it the way I want it to work? Can you, as a user, tell the difference between a machine running the mid-90s OS, and a modern one set up with the same environment?

                  How it achieves this does not matter to the majority of users. So not a "volte-face" at all. A misinterpretation on your part, perhaps. Maybe the fact you had to point out some of the enhancements and when they were included are a hint at this fact.

                  A lot of those old Window Managers do work, I've used a couple. The thing they might miss are things like system tray notification areas: there's tools like stalonetray that fill that role. FVWM works in my case. twm? Well, it was always primitive, but I see no reason why it could not be used even today. I know of companies that still use ye olde mwm just fine. Largely on SCADA.

                  The point being, I have chosen that look and feel, and I am using a windowing environment that originally came from that era to achieve it. I had that as an option. Microsoft has never given us this option. Yes Windows 95 had the program manager available, but its look and feel was nothing like that of Windows 3.1.

                  The Windows desktop also tends to make a lot of assumptions, such as assuming the task bar is on the bottom of the screen. Applications seem to assume this too. So if you do what I do and move it to the top, windows tend to cover it (I'm looking at you, WireShark), or some applications try to put a pop-up screen above it, and thus off the top of the screen (I'm looking at you, ClamWin).

                2. TCook1943

                  I am a Linux, (And Windows) user & I am honest enough to admit up front that I don't have much of a clue about what the system is doing behind the screen & whats more I've no particular need to know.

                  Windows 10 at first sight is a bit of a disapointment, it seems clunky and is certainly slower than Win 8.1 by some margin in booting and getting down to work. I have Classic Shell installed and am presently unable to see how to download and install apps. (Don't write to tell me how because I'll have fiixed it by the time you respond.

                  My impression currently is that MS have laid yet another pretty operating system on us, and pretty it certainly is, representing yet another barrier to actually doing anything.

                  That may, and probably will, with further usage change in the future. Meanwhile I am very glad that I set it up to dual boot with Win 7. Touching on speeds again my Win 7 system is loaded with everything including the kitchen sink and it still holds its own against Win 10 with almost nothing installed.

                  Meanwhile a tip for anyone toying with the idea of using Linux, go for a system like PCLinux which updates, "on the roll" and is never outdated. About as idiot proof as a system could well be in fact.

        2. Barry Rueger Silver badge

          Phew!

          Someone got up on the wrong side of the bed!

          My experience is rather different: for at least four years my Linux system, and Open/Libre Office, has worked with minimal problems.

          Aside from figuring out where Mint has hidden the "Disable CapsLock" setting.

          In fact, the reason I stay with Linux is because it doesn't have the problems that seem to be endless in Windows boxes.

      2. Cynic_999 Silver badge

        "

        You pick and choose what you want, and crucially, choose when to update.

        "

        OK, so would you choose PIXIE layout with CDF bus capability or a ROLI GUIv4 interface? If it became available, would you install the F5TR773 update that fixes a CUDO vulnerability, or would you postpone due to RRM concerns?

        Your only honest answer to the above will be, "I have no idea whatsoever." Just like 99.9% of computer users faced with the choices *you* are referring to. Apart from a small percentage of computer geeks, "choice" means "confusion". In a managed environment, the IT department will understand the choices and make suitable ones for the users. In an unmanaged environment, the user will either need to hire a professional or end up making bad choices, so it makes sense for Microsoft to make choices on behalf of its *non-professional* system users.

        It's a big reason why the masses have not taken to Linux. Installing Linux usually involves making a choice or answering a question that the average home user does not even slightly understand, which immediately brands it as "too difficult".

        1. Craig100
          Linux

          Try in install of Linux Mint Cinnamon. I'd hope you'd find it pretty easy for a home user. They only have to know their name and where they are really ;)

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Windows 10 is the car that MS are using to drive you to their cloud.

    5. eclairz

      Re: My car gets maintained for a fee.

      Maintenance is one thing but cars do become discontinued and unless there are lots of third party parts then the cost of maintenance tends to go up as the car ages. Same thing with operating systems, as the software gets older you need more legacy programmers to deal with the changes and as they become more and more rare they also increase in cost.

      So if Windows was on a sliding scale of higher maintenance fees after the initial 10 year support, I'm not sure everyone would pay as we're now in a world where we expect everything to be free or set price per product. The other issue is trying to make everything backward compatible and the large amounts of fragmentation means developing applications becomes painful and sometimes impossible.

      Because Apple make money off hardware they factor that into the cost of their higher priced machines, but software companies just can't do this. And Apple are far worse than Windows at discontinuing operating systems, but the majority of their users don't mind change even when they take features away.

      Linux makes more sense for the car analogy as it is open source and different parts can be used, you can hire a third party to maintain it. However the problem is only companies will ask for maintenance, there aren't many normal users who will pay for maintenance, as most will be developers, tinkerers or just use it for the internet, so they will do it themselves or do nothing depending on their needs. But that means there is less help for the common man who wants help with something as most Linux users will assume the user who installed Linux knows how run console command lines or install apps from the web. I guess Ubuntu tries to keep things as simple as possible, but phone support is paid for or the user has to scour the forums which a normal user wouldn't do, whereas most people know how to use Windows (which also includes phone support) or can visit an Apple store for help.

      End of story, learn what is ideal for your situation, don't expect technology to wait for you (Windows/Apple/Android) unless you are willing to put the work in to maintain your own system (Linux). Vintage cars are nice but there's a reason why there aren't many left today.

      1. Craig100
        Linux

        Re: My car gets maintained for a fee.

        I switched from Windows to Linux Ubuntu and now Mint 6 years ago. The help in forums for Linux is fantastic compared to Windows. Certainly Mint is ridiculously simple (and quick) to install and you get a full suite of usable software right out of the box. Also, never heard of phone support for Windows for home users. You'd need to have an Action Pack, MSDN or some other paid for support option in place IIRC.

    6. P. Lee Silver badge

      >Am I the only person who sees this as desperation?

      Nope, you're not the only one.

      They've messed up and ended up without the monoculture they so badly need. Not only is the world not all Windows, but not even Windows users are all running a platform which is easily targetable by devs. They broke stuff between versions to force application upgrades, without contemplating what would happen if their strong-arm tactics were ignored. Now they have ended up with multiple incompatible Windows operating systems because they didn't actually give their users a particularly good reason to upgrade except "to stay current."

      NT4->XP and XP->W7 were reasonably compelling. A better GUI and better memory capabilities. Do you really need a new OS to implement powershell? Do you really need a new OS to implement an additional GUI which is optional? Don't even get the linux chaps involved here. I run SuSE 32bit in 1.5G RAM and SuSE 64bit with 32G RAM. MythTV, VLC, Mozilla and the OS all work without a problem. No application breakages there.

      I know MS wants to earn money, but powershell should really be a base item and a new GUI should not be a cost option. Why? W10 is licensed per device. Change your device, you buy new license. All those non-touchscreen business installs out there don't need it. All the new W10 tablets/phones (stop laughing) will have it pre-licensed. Unless you're a desktop user who bought a stand-alone touchscreen (anyone?) you don't need it. MS admit as such by making W8 (touchscreen OS) upgrades to W10 free. The upshot is, there's still not a great deal which MS can argue makes it worthwhile *for the user* to upgrade from W7->W10. Its great for MS, nice for Devs, but for the user - not so much.

      1. James 132

        Re: >Am I the only person who sees this as desperation?

        Powershell.

        Microsoft spent years trying to get rid of the command line, tucking it away and stripping back functionality, then Linux/BSD comes along and rips them a new one, and they reinvent it with the most verbose, clunky, slow syntax imaginable.

    7. Radio Wales

      Yes, but....

      If I had a car that informed me, whilst I was trying to brake - and I mean REALLY brake - like at the end of the road before the cliff edge, flashing up a message saying: "WAIT. Installing braking updates - Do not operate brakes." I would be inclined to panic.

      Am I so badly malformed or mentally unstable enough to want to perform certain actions on my computer when it suits ME rather than suiting someone I've never met and who lives in a different continent and is probably asleep at the time?

  3. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge
    Mushroom

    Then there is the Whitespace everywhere

    Server 2012 showed us the way it was going (never tried Win8/8.1)

    Lots of vertical whitespace making for seemingly endless scrolling on panels (yesh, I'm MF OldSkool) to find the options you want. There are plenty of Admins out there having to use cheapo laptops with 768 vertical resolution. And frankly, it sucks.

    This has perculated to the new BBC Cricket pages. Before the scorecard was easy to read and pretty concise. Now it is one tab per side per innings. WTF has all the usability gone.

    It is almost enough to make me eant to tear what little hair I have left out and make the goons/idiots/***** responsible for this east it all. Or failing that... see icon

    1. nkuk

      Re: Then there is the Whitespace everywhere

      I'll also be glad when the creative (copycat?) types jump on another bandwagon. Another example is the cinema web site I use has changed from having all the films in a concise one page list to having it split over 3 pages, with pointless boxes surrounding everything and huge areas of whitespace across the pages, so you have to scroll up and down over 3 pages to see the ten or so films that are showing.

      Web design seems to be fashion over function these days.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Then there is the Whitespace everywhere

        I'll also be glad when the creative (copycat?) types jump on another bandwagon.

        Exactly my sentiments when I first saw this. Used to be able to find what I wanted there fairly quickly. Not any more.

      2. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge
        Mushroom

        Re: Then there is the Whitespace everywhere

        > I'll also be glad when the creative (copycat?) types jump on another bandwagon.

        > Web design seems to be fashion over function these days.

        This. And El Reg has gone down the way of crap design too (back in February, was it?)

        Then again, one has to provide jobs to the army of people who think "web design and uglyfication" is actually a real job that is supposed to be remunerated.

    2. SeanEllis
      Flame

      Re: Then there is the Whitespace everywhere

      The trends of whitespace bloat, lack of customization and forced updates have already come together in Microsoft's chat product, Skype. A quick look at their community forum shows how popular this combination is.

      If the whole OS interface is going this way, I'm sticking to Windows 7 at work (and Kubuntu at home) - and there will be a lot more stick-in-the-muds like me.

      1. Smartypantz

        Re: Then there is the Whitespace everywhere

        shhh..!

        Dont mention Kubuntu. I've been anjoying hassle free secure and consistent computing with Kubuntu (and debian + KDE) for years now (in spite of all the pointless kde 4 hate). If all the Mint refugees, generel Ubuntu users and their enemies ever find out it will be ruined :-)

    3. DryBones

      Re: Then there is the Whitespace everywhere

      Google Calendar did the same thing, absurd use of whitespace. They backtracked after getting excoriated in the reviews page. I plan to do similar as required with Microsoft Feedback. This is something they have needed for a while (for all meanings).

      1. joed

        Re: Then there is the Whitespace everywhere

        Little hope, their support page looks no different. Now with "cool" spinning circle as it takes 10 seconds to load vast emptiness.

        They just hate good old plasma screens and our retinas.

  4. John Robson Silver badge

    Fridge magnet...

    If a woman's work is never done... why start?

    Given the current (reported) state of W10...

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I'm sure for many of us…

    …it indeed will be the last version of Windows we come in contact with. Shortly before reaching for the install media for something workable, whether it be an earlier edition of Windows or something else entirely.

    In the short term we're staying at Windows 7 at my workplace. No point going any higher as the newer stuff won't support our domain. (Samba3; yes, replacing it is on the TODO list.)

    More and more of my colleagues are now dual-booting Linux, it used to just be two of us, now four, out of a department of 8. One of the remaining 4 regularly runs a Debian VM … the cautionary first-step to dual-booting, and all are getting more exposure to it daily.

    Sorry Microsoft, this ship has sailed.

    1. dogged

      Re: I'm sure for many of us…

      > Sorry Microsoft, this ship has sailed.

      People here have been crying the same tune since WinXP launched. "lol fisher price, I'll never use it". They always do.

      Forgive me if I disbelieve you the same way I disbelieve the rest of them.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: I'm sure for many of us…

        Dogged, the Eadon of the Microsoft world.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: I'm sure for many of us…

        With XP (and Win 7) you could quickly revert to 'windows Classic' and get on with your job.

        Now we are stuck with that awful tiled interface always lurking somewhere in the background waiting for its opportnity to strike back us the non-believers.

        This is not progress in my eyes but there again, what do I know? I'm merely an Old Codger who's first introduction to computers was wiring up Analogue Computer Amplifiers for RAF Gnat Flight simulators.

        1. Chika

          Re: I'm sure for many of us…

          This is not progress in my eyes but there again, what do I know? I'm merely an Old Codger who's first introduction to computers was wiring up Analogue Computer Amplifiers for RAF Gnat Flight simulators.

          I think you might have something there. What we are seeing in the design of UIs in recent years has less to do with functionality than it has to do with fashion. The mobile phone suffered a similar fate. UI designers are pushing this whole white space bloat think on us because they think it actually looks "kewl".

          OK so I'm no spring chicken either. I still have a soft spot for the PDP11, after all.

          1. Roo
            Windows

            Re: I'm sure for many of us…

            "OK so I'm no spring chicken either. I still have a soft spot for the PDP11, after all."

            I think -11s are more than worthy of a soft spot in anyone's heart. They were very good machines, even a grumpy old sod like me finds it tough to fault them. It's a shame that they weren't (successfully) pushed towards high volume markets.

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: I'm sure for many of us…

            I think you might have something there. What we are seeing in the design of UIs in recent years has less to do with functionality than it has to do with fashion.

            Yep, said it before, and I'll say it again, it's basically Microsoft saying "If You Leave Me, Can I Come Too".

            I find it amusing that dogged immediately latched onto the UI side of the argument. While yes, that has gone downhill in the last 20 years, one point I did raise was the ability of the OS to talk to older-style domains. As I understand it, Windows 7 is the last version to support Samba-3 domains. They officially don't support NT4-style domains on Windows 7 or newer, and require some registry tweaks to make Windows 7 work.

            Pretty sure Windows 8 and newer requires ActiveDirectory to work, which means in our case, a move to Samba4, which, is on the TODO list, just not in the near future, and we'll need new computers sooner than that.

            There's also a lot of software we use that presently runs on Windows 7, some won't run on anything newer than Windows XP, and we have to support it. So there are good technical reasons why we stay with Windows 7. With more of our work revolving around Linux these days though, it's only going to be a matter of time before Windows is just a VM sitting atop KVM on Linux.

      3. Roo
        Windows

        Re: I'm sure for many of us…

        "People here have been crying the same tune since WinXP launched. "lol fisher price, I'll never use it". They always do."

        Sure did, I used it for playing games so it was somewhat similar to a Fisher Price toy...

        "Forgive me if I disbelieve you the same way I disbelieve the rest of them."

        There is no need to beg for forgiveness, we pity your ignorance. ;)

      4. nkuk

        Re: I'm sure for many of us…

        That's not always the case now, Vista was rejected en-masse as was Windows 8/8.1. Windows 10 might be too if the general consensus is that your pc is essentially an advertising and data collection terminal, which reading about the inbuilt Advertising ID and privacy statements looks to be the case.

      5. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: I'm sure for many of us…

        People here have been crying the same tune since WinXP launched. "lol fisher price, I'll never use it". They always do.

        Yep, first thing I turned off in Windows XP was the "fisher price" UI. That and changed the start menu back to the old classic (Win95-style) one.

        When Vista released, I did the same, turned off Aero, switched the start menu back.

        When 7 released, I tried to do the same. I turned off Aero, but then found they had removed the old-style start menu, much to my annoyance. Thankfully there's ClassicShell, and also thankfully, I don't need to use Windows all that often.

    2. N2 Silver badge

      Re: I'm sure for many of us…

      Sounds good,

      But what took you so long?

  6. DrXym Silver badge

    Control panel gets me

    I find the split of control panel & settings to be incredibly bizarre. On the right hand side of the desktop you have notifications within which you can access your settings. The Settings panel / app has a modern (and strangely ugly) UI to access most of the every day settings. It's probably adequate for someone using a tablet or a casual desktop user. On the left hand side, accessible with a right-mouse click on the start button (or a Windows+X) you have Control Panel which is all the legacy control panels and stuff Microsoft couldn't be bothered to port to the new L&F.

    There is a massive amount of overlap between Control Panel & Settings. I realise that Microsoft has possibly 20 years worth of CPLs, many of which it doesn't own that could reside in Control Panel. But surely there is a better way to do it than this? Even if they methodically replace all their own CPLs and then stick 3rd party ones in an "Other" folder.

    My other gripes with Windows 10 is that it's still not easy to customize the start menu UI with a keyboard and mouse. Dragging and resizing tiles around one. tile. at. a. time. is. mind. numbingly. tedious. Why can't I rubber band a group of tiles and resize, delete or drag and drop them together? Why can't I group tiles into something akin to a folder? Why is grouping as implemented so unintuitive? Why do the popup menus on Start look so stupid and have that annoying little animation?

    I also HATE the thin borders around metro apps. It's very hard to resize windows because the edges are so thin. It's like the needs of desktop users were placed second to aesthetics - that putting borders might make look the windows look ugly and therefore screw you.

    Overall though, Windows 10 is what they should have done for 8. It aligns quite closely with what I hoped they fix - mini metro start menu, apps in windows. It's quite usable overall and seems like a positive step in the right direction.

    1. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge

      Re: Control panel gets me

      It's very hard to resize windows because the edges are so thin.

      Didn't you get the memo? You are supposed to run EVERYTHING in full screen. MS clearly does not want those of us with 24in+ monitors having lots of windows on show. Now it is phone mode (all or nothing) all the time.

      1. The little voice inside my head

        Re: Control panel gets me

        It should be named Window 1, only one Window allowed at a time.

  7. TeeCee Gold badge
    Facepalm

    Well that's what you get....

    ......for having a hard release date pinned on a major development project before it's even been into testing. A sack of bug-ridden shit.

    It's always been true and always will be true.

    1. g e

      Re: Well that's what you get....

      Hence free for a year.

      Of Beta-testing

      1. Yag

        Re: Well that's what you get....

        Hence free for a year. Of Beta-testing

        Still better than the paid beta testing of Vista or 8.

  8. Phrimmy

    Windows 10 woes

    I must admit it didn't surprise me but trying to get the automatic update to Windows 10 from Windows 8.1 didn't want to work despite sever tries including clearing the Windows update software distribution folder and re-downloading the "automatic update" several times (in case it had got corrupted) - each time I just got a lovely "failed" message against the Windows 10 update.

    In the end to upgrade I just used the manual Microsoft Windows 10 ISO / USB download image tool and this seemed to work fine for the update process but it did mean I effectively had to download it 3 times (once automatically, once after clearing the Windows update software distribution folder and running Windows update manually then finally by using the Microsoft Windows 10 download image tool!

    Initial comments are it is basically Windows 8.1 with a slightly less annoying start menu, Cortina search and the new Edge Browser.

    Unfortunately though some quick tests with Edge vs IE11 I notice that Edge will often freeze for a second or 2 when clicking on some website links whereas IE11 seems to perform fine. I wasn't really taxing it either - just using the BBC news site or el Reg.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Windows

      Re: Windows 10 woes

      "Edge will often freeze for a second or 2 when clicking on some website links whereas IE11 seems to perform fine."

      Eww, Windows user

    2. g e
      Joke

      Close but no cigar

      THIS is a Cortina Search...

      http://www.autotrader.co.uk/search/used/cars/ford/cortina/postcode/cv239df/radius/1500/onesearchad/used%2Cnearlynew%2Cnew/quicksearch/true

      1. dogged

        Re: Close but no cigar

        9 grand for a Mk2? The Mk1 Lotus GT edition, maybe but a Mk2? My grandparents had one. It was shit.

        1. 45RPM Silver badge

          Re: Close but no cigar

          @dogged - yeah, but he lives in Rugby and chaps from Rugby can clearly afford to buy raddled old rubbish.

          1. Chika
            Trollface

            Re: Close but no cigar

            @45RPM - At least he'll stand out from the sheeple in their German bourge-mobiles.

        2. hplasm Silver badge
          Devil

          Re: Close but no cigar

          "It was shit."

          Cortina Mk2 or Cortana Mk1?

      2. Paul Woodhouse

        Re: Close but no cigar

        welp, we know your postcode now :p...

      3. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

        Re: Close but no cigar

        "THIS is a Cortina Search..."

        Odd that you should mention that. I've actually heard a few users refer to it as "Cortina" with overtones of derision. I'm not sure if they are deliberately calling it Cortina to imply the derision or if they are simply mis-pronouncing it and that leads to the derision because of the connotations with the car.

    3. Don The Elder

      Re: Windows 10 woes

      Edge appears to have only three privacy modes: Block all cookies/Block only third party cookies/Don’t block cookies. Set Advanced cookies to Prompt for both types, then surf almost anywhere without checking the Always block, and count the variety of servers and number of times each server asks to set a "cookie" (there normally are five locations for them in Win 7/8.1, only one labeled Cookies, but the suppliants are not locked into any of them), and you may see why there are "random" lockups. And ask yourself why the same url needs to set more than one; could it be that it read something NOT in any of those locations (say YOUR location) and so needs to rewrite its previous text? And I found http://yatterz.co.uk/2015/07/27/windows-10-tutorials-128-allow-or-block-cookies-in-microsoft-edge/ claims that you can't modify system settings, say to open a Tesla's gull wings while moving (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/07/21/chinese_uni_students_pop_tesla_model_s/). I hope that Win 7 (or even 8.1) is still available when they pry my cold, dead fingers off my trackball.

  9. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge
    Devil

    The place where Bad Sysadmins go after logging out for the last time

    Every day is mandatory patch day and "This work will never be finished.”

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I've been beta testing for several months on three PCs, one, a clean install of windows 7, nothing else, simple web browsing and emailing. Another is typical windows 7 with the usual office apps, kind of an everyday work use laptop. The last is a desktop windows 7 install and do whatever, whenever, however. Nothing to loose on any if all fails. These were not used all the time, just seeing how 10 plays with various scenarios. My intention was to get an early start, learn what I could, be prepared when the time came.

    I knew it was not ready for July 29, but very close, but MS insist it is, but when the date comes, no option to go from beta to release (as so many other beta testers found) unless you go download from MS. I (several others also) expected an update or something to do so. We were told that it would roll out overtime to beta testers as updates became available. So, its the OS that wasn't ready, but is, but really isn't for some actual testers, but is for unknowing users.....I'm lost. Is it ready or not? Why push it to the general public first and skip many beta testers? Why some users getting it but others are waiting? What is the criteria? I know you can download and install, but the impression given was this would be pushed out, the user would not have to search and find.

  11. Zog_but_not_the_first Silver badge
    FAIL

    Designed...

    ... to slurp your data and control your OS software. How do businesses feel about this highly significant change in MS's direction?

  12. LDS Silver badge

    MIcrosoft manichaeism

    Microsoft seems to believe there are only two kind of users - "clueless home users" and "managed enterprise users". The fact that there are a lot of professionals who have Windows devices that for some reason are not domain-joined and managed by it never touched their minds.

    Forcing updates onto them is the stupid idea I have ever seen - especially drivers updates, but not only. It's not only IT professional but many others who may work self-employed or in very small companies with a few devices and no domains.

    Even users using their devices for some non-work related activities may want far more control on what gets on their machines. For example, I always perform a monitor calibration every time I update the card drivers, and a print test when the photo printer driver changes, to ensure everything still works at is should. Thereby I want to control when they are installed.

    I may understand pushing critical security updates only - ok, there's a risk but to counter other big risks - but not every and each "updated" MS thinks it shold test on customers.

    The flat, child-like UI design of these days - not only from MS - is another indication there's a clear lack of understanding of what customers segments really exist. Smartphone had leat IT to an excessive "consumerization", and the revenues Apple is able to extract from it led too many executive believe every device and every user must be alike a smartphone one.

    1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: MIcrosoft manichaeism

      "Forcing updates onto them is the stupid idea I have ever seen - especially drivers updates, but not only. It's not only IT professional but many others who may work self-employed or in very small companies with a few devices and no domains."

      No, they're not forcing updates onto them. They're forcing repurchase of the Pro or enterprise versions.

      1. LDS Silver badge

        Re: MIcrosoft manichaeism

        You can't buy the Enteprise version but with a volume licensig scheme, AFAIK. Of course most pro users are already using a Pro one and not an Home - but having to go through several steps to disable what you don't need is not a nice 'first contact" with a professional OS. It's like having to neutralize all the crappy OEM software you find on some branded PCs - of course all of them to "improve your experience and keep you safe".

        I really don't care if Win 10 is free - I prefer paid upgrades as long as they are what I need - and being able *not to purchase* is a way to tell "hey, deliver something better and I'll upgrade - and only then".

  13. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Is Microsoft's grand plan to force everyone onto Linux/Mac as W10 is a bloody good start at it.

    Forced updates, Secureboot lockout, TPM 2.0.

    Nay, nay and thrice nay.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Forgot to add

      What complete and utter retard at Microsoft thought Wifi sense was a good idea ?

      An idiotic design idea on the scale of autorun.

      I suppose it does have a flip side, Microsoft have now handily given people a superb defence when accused of sharing pirated material.

  14. thondwe

    nice when it's finished

    It's unfinished - Multiple Control Panels - "Add Feature" my favorite so far I can install hundreds of languages, but pretty much nothing else!

    Edge can't seem to deal with switching between wifi networks. I had to change the default browser back to IE to get OneDrive for Business configured...

    Can't set Outlook as my default Calander App

    Still two OneNotes - why!

    "All Apps" is a mistake - too long too narrow...

    Expect lots more quirks.

    Otherwise it's a step up from 8.1 in someways - Multiple Display's handle much better for instance.

    As for constant feature updates - how many Apps in the IOS/Android App store do this all the time? It's the new norm...

  15. Efros

    Interesting one I came across

    I installed W10 on a small tablet, installation was lengthy but actually went pretty smoothly. Once installed I downloaded Chrome and set about making the usual changes to its configuration, the first step of which is to sync it with one of my chrome accounts. Big problem, the Chrome account login doesn't trigger the W10 keyboard, when brought up manually the input fields are not recognized by W10 as such. If you type your account details and password in notepad and then attempt to copy them over then the signin applet disappears when it loses focus. So signing in to sync settings aint happening. Combo of Google and MS screwups I think.

    1. Efros

      Re: Interesting one I came across

      Figured out that VNCing into the tablet allowed me to complete the sync signin. A bluetooth keyboard would probably allow it too, or indeed an ordinary keyboard with a microUSB connector seeing as I have neither VNC was the answer.

  16. J J Carter Silver badge
    FAIL

    Epic fail from Intel (yeah, used to be part of Wintel) for stopping Atom-based tablets upgrading to 10 due to not upgrading their graphics drivers. Bar Stewards.

    1. Efros

      Depends on the particular Atom you have. I have an Atom Z3735G Bay Trail based tablet and it upgraded fine.

      1. MrT

        Essential "peripherals"...

        This sort of thing will affect more than a few laptops as well. For example, I've an old Toshiba 2008 model A300D which has been upgraded over the years to 4GB RAM and a 250GB MX200 SSD, currently running Win7 Pro 64. Alongside the AMD Turion X2 CPU it has a Radeon X1200 graphics card, which ATI/AMD stopped supporting as a discrete GPU a year or two ago, but like so many laptops it's dependant on the manufacturer releasing custom graphics drivers. It's a bit like the issue with Android phones, where Google might issue a patch, but the handset manufacturer can't be bothered to rebuild their custom firmware. I've also got a Dell with add-on nVidia GPU - this is stuck at an old driver release for the same reason.

        The old A300D went from 'OK' to 'Nope' in the Win10 upgrade doohickey about 2 weeks before launch day, so it won't even try to download the update. It was possible to force Win8/8.1 to run the older Win7 WMMD 1.0 drivers - not sure yet if that's still an option in Win10, but currently the graphics driver is the only thing preventing the laptop from running Win10. The Dell has just been told 'No go'... but not for the GPU - apparently the Intel T7200 CPU isn't supported...

        1. MrT

          In the end...

          ... the update advisor tool was being a bit cautious. The old A300D is currently running Windows 10 just fine on the old December 2008 ATI driver. I had to force the update to load, and then pointed the display adapter to the Windows.old folder to find the Win7 driver. I also had to remove a small collection of utilities to stop some instability, such as Toshiba's toolkits/updaters, the ATI Catalyst stuff and, oddly, all of the Freemake media downloader/converter titles, but in the end it works nicely.

          The issue with the Dell laptop was down to me ages ago setting DEP to apply only to essential Windows files and services - once I'd dug that nugget from memory and reset it to all files, the Win8.1 and Win10 upgrade advisors found that the CPU was fine. And there was me thinking it was the Dell firmware blocking the XD setting... hopefully that will be a reasonably smooth process as well, but there is a lot more legacy on that system than on the old Toshiba.

  17. NanoMeter

    Windows 7 works so well

    I'm not sure If it's necessary to upgrade just yet.

    1. Chika
      Black Helicopters

      Re: Windows 7 works so well

      It isn't.

      I can't remember an operating system that ever worked well on day one. With Windows it has always been the driver breakage whenever you tried to upgrade. I can recall Windows 95 and the whole situation there when users found that some hardware failed due to shoddily written drivers dashed out so that the product could be completed on time, with little tolerance for drivers from its predecessor. While this hasn't been exactly the same for each release, problems have always occurred. It's one of the reasons why the whole "leave it until the first service pack comes out" approach became popular.

      Windows 7 was a good release. It's one reason why Windows 8.x was unpopular with many users. Another was that Windows XP wasn't so bad one you got used to, or you switched off, the "Fisher Price Experience(tm)". It was always going to be difficult to follow these up, as also seen with Vista's failure (oh noes! I'm going to get downvoted again!)

      It has become noticeable that Microsoft seem to be happy to release new versions, even to the point of bullying users off stable prior platforms and even when everyone + dog knows that it isn't ready. I suspect that if Windows 8 had been allowed to die and Microsoft started again from Windows 7, they might have made something that users might not object to.

      That, however, would depend on Microsoft actually listening to users rather than doing their own thing, trying to force their view on us then throwing a few sops at us when they realised that their actions might potentially hit their sales figures. Sops like the "Start" button in W8.1 or the Start + Metro menu here in W10. Yes, there are good things to be found here but the underlying problem still remains; Microsoft wants to lock its users into its ecosystem and will go to any lengths, including snooping, hidden clauses in the EULA, dubious licensing, even more draconian DRM to make sure that happens.

      Anyone remember the fiasco surrounding the release of the XBone? Does all this sound familiar? Ballmer might be gone but the faceless evil minions under him are still alive and well.

  18. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Two bits of text cut & pasted from Reg. articles.

    Gabe Aul has promised that both “Windows 10 is the last version of Windows” and “Windows as a Service” means continual updates.

    Support for Redmond's Omega operating system will cease finally on October 14, 2025.

  19. Zoopy

    Scary efor small business

    My wife uses a windows 7 for hosting Photoshop and Lightroom for her photography business. The thought of an ill-designed forced update from Microsoft taking out that computer during a crunch time for the business is terrifying. We can't easily afford a powerful Mac, but we might need to go that way.

    1. Old Handle

      Re: Scary efor small business

      Or you could jump keep using Windows 7 forever since it already does what you need.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Scary efor small business

        You could also upgrade from Home to Pro, and manage your own patching then.

  20. Mage Silver badge
    Headmaster

    3D buttons

    Fine on a basic 386SX on Windows For Workgroups 3.11 in 1993.

    They are going backwards on GUI. I remember Windows 286.

    Aero, transparency and animations are a bit evil though.

    Maybe in 2016 they will see sense and commence work on Windows Classic, based on NT3.51 with Explorer only as a shell (Explorer was available as tech preview prior to NT4.0), nothing stupid in Kernel and choice of hot fixes via Internet for vulnerabilities (free) and paid SP rollups with features for subscribers (or once off payment) on DVD, SD Card, USB stick or Download. Each later SP including all changes of earlier ones and manual or automated selection of non-critical features to add,

    1. The little voice inside my head

      Re: 3D buttons

      Does it take lower resources? Yes, how much is saved by doing crappy icons? Didn't Apple go the same route? They might be thinking that Apple is so much cooler than us, we better imitate them... Lack of originality in their design, meaning functional originality, not the ugly rectangular plain flat tiles... Which translated to icons...

      I would probably accept such interface if windows 10 was easy to navigate, would load instantly (like switching a TV on) and all patches wouldn't require a restart.

      Microsoft releasing poor quality products that require constant patching, testing them on real users, demonstrates how inefficient big companies become, lack of focus, with their customers feeling left behind, believing that they will have to use it and too bad if they don't. After reading all the problems Microsoft has been having in the past 5 years or more, I think a real simple NetWare from the past would be enough for many companies. Basic permissions on shares. Well organized directories and humongous cheap storage. Maybe it's time to think what the true needs are for businesses and not just the this is cool stuff. Hmm, then again:"I wish I could do this or that..." And we end here, convoluted insecured environment, where leaks, hacks sabotage are part of our lives and we are told to blindly accept this, instead of taking the time to engineer good IT and the tech behind it.

      1. Boothy

        Re: 3D buttons

        Would be nice if they could add a Skin/Theme option, that changes more than just things like font sizes, and colours.

        Would be especially good if it was via an open API, so people could home brew, and add them to the Store, or as a direct download.

        I'd be curious to see how popular the Win 7, or Win XP themes were :-)

  21. Rich 11 Silver badge

    Not quite

    Which is another way of saying: “This work will never be finished.”

    And another way of saying: "This work will never be trusted."

  22. Pristine Audio

    Moan Moan Moan

    Well I like it, so far.

    1. Chika

      Re: Moan Moan Moan

      The OS or the moaning?

  23. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    At least Dutch marketing was honest

    In the Netherlands, Microsoft sought to introduce Windows 10 from an old tram, painted blue which is probably the closest their marketing department has ever come to the truth:

    Old, aged and worn technology, but with a new paint job.

    Never seen them this honest before :)

  24. ekithump

    Mandatory updates

    Without the ability to control updates, what happens when an update breaks an app and stops the business running? If I can't roll back an update, I'll just block the updates site at the firewall and kill them dead in the first place.

    We have render farm machines that must not automatically reboot themselves, otherwise it kills overnight workflow, so these will definitely stay on Windows 7 ad infinitum.

    Do MS never learn?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Mandatory updates

      I wonder what will happen if a Windows-killing bug appears and Microsoft stubbornly does a WONTFIX, placing you between Scylla and Charybdis.

      1. Asok Asus

        Re: Mandatory updates

        "I wonder what will happen if a Windows-killing bug appears and Microsoft stubbornly does a WONTFIX, placing you between Scylla and Charybdis."

        More sales for Mac PCs for those who have to have a PC and more sales of iOS and Android for those who realize all they were doing on a PC in the first place was accessing the web and reading email.

    2. Wade Burchette

      Re: Mandatory updates

      I use the backup for Server Essentials 2012 R2. It is a wonderful backup program, the best I've seen. However, on the client some Windows updates break the restore wizard. I can still do a full bare-metal restore, but if I need to restore an individual file I will have to uninstall several updates. Some people on a Microsoft message board identified those updates.

      Here is the point, how can we stop updates that break something important? We need to be able to uninstall and hide such updates.

      On a related note, I always wait at least a week before install updates. Although rare, sometimes an update makes things worse and has to be pulled. I let others be my tester. Plus, I can choose to install the updates when convenient. I won't get any message about restarting when I'm right in the middle of something important. I won't have to wait for my laptop to shut down when I am in a hurry.

    3. Stuart Castle

      Re: Mandatory updates

      "Without the ability to control updates, what happens when an update breaks an app and stops the business running? If I can't roll back an update, "

      The business version of Windows 10 does allow a sysadmin to block updates. Not saying Microsoft have done this out of concern for the small business though, I suspect it was more that they didn't want to have to deal with the fallout when an enforced update takes out half the computers of a massive multinational company.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Mandatory updates

        Meanwhile, they also have to contend with the potential liabilities of a bunch of home computers run by barely-illiterates who don't have the foggiest idea on how to keep them up to date when new exploits come along. So how do you balance this out? Home users who MUST be updated because they won't do it themselves vs. enterprise users who MUST withhold updates that can potentially break business-critical systems.

        1. Chika

          Re: Mandatory updates

          Home users who MUST be updated because they won't do it themselves vs. enterprise users who MUST withhold updates that can potentially break business-critical systems.

          I'd agree with you if I knew that I could trust any given patch or update that was issued. The minute a dodgy patch hits a large number of people who can't fix the problem themselves is when this whole argument falls apart.

          And dodgy patches are certainly released.

  25. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I totally thought the thing about Solitaire was a joke.

    Clearly, the Onion should just pack up and go home. Reality has exceeded the ridiculous.

    1. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge
      Trollface

      Re: I totally thought the thing about Solitaire was a joke.

      The spacetime rift opened on 9/11 due to improper shutdown of a dark energy generator on floor 88 finally arrives in IT!

    2. TitterYeNot

      Re: I totally thought the thing about Solitaire was a joke.

      $9.99 a year for ad-free solitaire?

      HA HA HA HA HA

      HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

      HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

      HA HA HA <Thud>

  26. hplasm Silver badge
    Thumb Up

    Welcome to the World of Windows 10-

    a world of "endless, pointless knobbing around..."

  27. SniperPenguin

    ***Cheer up though. Gabe Aul has promised that both “Windows 10 is the last version of Windows” and “Windows as a Service” means continual updates.

    Which is another way of saying: “This work will never be finished.”***

    Not sure what the problem is.... Linux GUI updates / refreshes have worked this way for years. ;-)

    Dont like the one it ships with? Install a third party manager such as Classic Shell (Yes, KDE and Gnome are third party's too).

    <Puts on the fire suit for the Penguinista BBQ incoming>

  28. Comic Book Guy
    Happy

    Oh look, another Reg article with nothing positive to say about Windows 10.

    I did a few upgrades last night.

    No, they were not flawless - but the things that didn't work were minor. I didn't hit any show-stoppers at all.

    Within an hour of starting the first upgrade, I was able to use the first machine. Office worked. Visual Studio worked. I recompiled several projects, tested them - they all ran as expected, and I'd say some of the bigger ones seemed to start a little faster than before. Skype (boring desktop edition) worked, and my video conference to the USA didn't suffer any problems. I then accessed the corporate VPN via the new client. Guess what? It worked.

    After a couple of hours of "being productive", I tried a few games, old and new. Ultima Online worked, and had no lag. It did have a few red PKs, but that's hardly Microsoft's fault.

    On the newer end of the scale, Elder Scrolls Online was also as playable as ever.

    All the websites I tried via Edge appeared ok, too.

    Cortana seems to think that I'm on some other planet, despite setting everything to English (UK), England, and singing Rule Britannia at it. So that's not working. It did tell me to download a language pack, which required the first reboot after installation - but still no chatty assistant.

    So, no - not perfect. But I was able to find every app I wanted, as quickly as I ever have. I could work, play, chat, etc. I don't see a problem. And Cortana's a gimick for now, at least for me.

    As far as "forced updates" go, despite having a pretty high degree of technical knowledge, I neither have the time or the inclination to set up duplicate test machines for every single driver that comes along - which, lets face it - is the only way to really know if an update is going to have an adverse effect on my system. So, much as I trust the mechanic who services my car once a year - and yes, I'm pretty much forced to accept AND pay for that every year, too - I have to trust the people providing the updates. Stick to mainstream hardware, from providers with a good reputation, and things should (mostly) be ok. Besides, it's a safe bet that most of the people whining about the updates have had Windows update set to the default setting all along anyway.

    My car also gets maintained for a fee. But, if a qualified mechanic from an approved garage offered to do it for free, there are very few circumstances under which I'd tell him to get lost.

    1. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge
      Thumb Up

      cortana not working?

      That's a big plus IMHO.

    2. Hans 1 Silver badge

      Posts by Comic Book Guy

      2 posts • joined 22 May 2015

      1. dogged

        So... his opinion is irrelevant if he signed up 9 weeks ago?

        Are you perhaps suggesting that he signed up 9 weeks ago purely in order to post good things about Windows 10, perhaps for some kind of financial reward? If so the poem about the Hobbit game isn't exactly high productivity, is it Hans 1?

        Basically, what the fuck is your problem Hans 1? Did somebody not join in with hating what you hate? Are you feeling self-doubt? Or are you just a dick?

        1. hplasm Silver badge
          Windows

          " Are you feeling self-doubt? Or are you just a dick?"

          Are you still posting on your Surface, dogged? Does the touch screen actually work when covered in flecks of foamy spittle?

          Where's the poodle icon?

          1. dogged

            Re: " Are you feeling self-doubt? Or are you just a dick?"

            I don't have a Surface, hplasm. The directors here have them but I am merely a lowly tech arch, I do not merit such toys.

            And how does pointing out that picking on a new guy is an asshole thing to do make me anyone's poodle?

      2. hplasm Silver badge
        Happy

        Posts by Comic Book Guy

        Worst Update EVAR!!!

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      I've actually been trying to do this off and on for the last few months. The problem is, there are no full replacement shells for Windows. Things like Classic Shell and Start 8/10 only focus on replacing the start menu. At best, they'll let you re-theme the GUI to something with slightly different colors. But they're not really a replacement if you hate the basic design of the GUI. Neither of them can bring back any of the Aero effects, for example.

      Actually, I did manage to find a couple of alternative shells that have been out of support for a few years and tended to have themes that looked like they were designed by people that were trying to make Microsoft look good here. EmergeDesktop was the best one I found, and it looks like their domain registration just expired.

      OTOH, maybe my GoogleFu just really sucks and someone else knows where a good replacement shell can be found.

      1. historyb
        Happy

        found some shell replacements here http://www.majorgeeks.com/mg/sortdate/shell_replacements.html

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      I have had the same experience it has been very smooth so far, upgraded Windows8.1 Enterprise on a Surface Pro 3 to Windows 10 Enterprise UK edition everything worked straight of the bat. Edge seems fast though did crash once but its early days only 24 hours in but seems fine. Even Dynamics client on Outlook worked which by any standard of usual crap software to break when looking at it the wrong way is encouraging.

    5. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      >"I did a few upgrades last night."

      So, to summarize:

      Your computers were working just fine.

      You spent hours upgrading, installing and reconfiguring, during which only a few things didn't work.

      Then you spent more time testing, which revealed that most stuff was still working like it did before and only a few bits and pieces were broken.

      After all that, your computers were working just fine.

      And you think this is a worthwhile use of your life? To me that would just be hours I was never going back. We must value things differently.

    6. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Oh, there was just one more thing... </columbo>

      About those forced updates:

      As far as "forced updates" go, despite having a pretty high degree of technical knowledge, I neither have the time or the inclination to set up duplicate test machines for every single driver that comes along - which, lets face it - is the only way to really know if an update is going to have an adverse effect on my system.

      Well, I have a much simpler strategy that I think gets 90% of the benefit of running a full duped test setup for only about 0.1% of the effort:

      1) Wait for Patch Tuesday.

      2) Don't install updates.

      3) The following Friday, see if the internet is alive with reports of problems from the patches.

      4) If not, go ahead and install. Otherwise wait for the patch to be reissued.

      This strategy has fully protected me against all the recent faulty MS updates that have knocked other peoples' systems out. (And there have been some very bad ones in the past couple of years - BSoDs, reboot loops, broken video playback all spring to mind without even googling. I'm sure there were others too.)

  29. JohnMurray

    I like the irony on the installation page:

    "Your pc will restart several times. Sit back and relax"

    Obviously written by somebody with no experience of a windows upgrade.

    1. Aoyagi Aichou

      Am I the only one who finds these overly friendly prompts MS seems to have been obsessed with since they became Modern extremely obnoxious?

      1. David 132 Silver badge
        Unhappy

        No, Aoyagi Aichou, you're not the only one.

        I find the excessive cutesiness of the error messages since Windows 8 to be really twee, naff, and patronising.

        The BSOD is now a frowny face :( - translation, "your computer's crashed but we think you're too dumb to understand so we'll use baby talk... Ouchie I Got A Boo-Boo"

        Try pairing a Miracast/wireless display device from the TIFKAM Settings app - if it doesn't work you don't get a meaningful error message or pointers to what might have been the cause. Instead, just a patronising "That didn't work".

        As another commentard said elsewhere.. Microsoft appear to think that there are precisely two types of user in the world. Home users, who are dumb and stupid and need to be spoon-fed and have everything done for them...and Enterprise users, who can pay volume licensing fees and can be treated like grown-ups.

        1. hplasm Silver badge
          Happy

          "Home users, who are dumb and stupid...

          ..and Enterprise users, who can pay volume licensing fees and can be treated like cash-cows."

          FTFY

      2. Chika

        This whole business of making the computer more "friendly" has annoyed me for some years. Wizards, obscure error messages, whatever, it's of no use. A computer is supposed to be a tool, not a device posing as a tool!

    2. Dan 55 Silver badge
      Joke

      "Sit back and relax. Everything is fine. The screen is meant to be blue. STOP 0x0000007B (INACCESSIBLE_BOOT_DEVICE)."

    3. Efros

      Or indeed any OS upgrade, spinning beachball anyone?

      1. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge
    4. BinkyTheMagicPaperclip Silver badge

      'Sit back and relax. Relax.. and welcome. Welcome to the testing program.

      Soon you will enter the first chamber.

      Right. Now, you might be asking yourself, "Just how difficult are these tests? What was in that phonebook of a contract I signed? Am I in danger?" Let me answer those questions with a statement

      You're here because we want the best, and you've installed it'

      (with mild apologies to Valve)

  30. Kaltern

    Welcome to New Windows.

    http://i.imgur.com/DiQbvqa.jpg

    (not my work, slightly sensationalised, but from what I can tell, utterly accurate :| )

    1. Dan 55 Silver badge
      Mushroom

      Re: Welcome to New Windows.

      So MS saying that phoning home would only be in the beta version is an outrageous lie.

    2. Timmy B Silver badge

      Re: Welcome to New Windows.

      Reductio ad Hitlerum - automatically makes it worthless......

      1. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge

        Re: Welcome to New Windows.

        Nein, Nein, Nein, Nein! Absolutely not.

  31. Pete4000uk

    So I guess

    Debian Cinnamon it is then

  32. Mikel

    Called it

    /self takes a bow

  33. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    ffs

    Premise: a previous statement or proposition from which another is inferred or follows as a conclusion. (May be plural.)

    Premises: a house or building, together with its land and outbuildings, occupied by a business or considered in an official context. Always "plural".

  34. cuddlyjumper
    Thumb Down

    Updates? If only we could get that far...

    A family member's machine updated to Windows 10 last night (the family member in question accepted it like every other update they generally accept that Windows Update throws at them). Their machine is now completely bricked.

    Which bit of this strategy from Microsoft - particularly given their track record - was EVER meant to be a good idea?

  35. Timmy B Silver badge

    Ok - so reporting something by people that clearly have no clue...

    “The defaults are still to point all kinds of crap at Azure/Office365. On my stuff, where I am still working old skool domains, there is now endless, pointless knobbing around and setting accounts that have zero relevance.”

    ok - It took me exactly the same number of clicks on Win 7 as it did on 10 to add a new PC to a domain. which is the more obvious, though?

    Control Panel -> System -> Change Settings -> Change (Button in Computer Name Panel)

    or

    Settings -> Accounts -> Work Access -> Join or leave a doman

    There is less jargon and more explanation in 10. Also Join or leave a domain IS THE TOP entry in the list - making it the most default option....

  36. sisk Silver badge

    I'll say just one thing about Windows 10 since I'm not using it and barely supporting it. My wife has been on the Win10 preview since late May and she's been mostly happy with it until the last couple weeks (when it started crashing for no apparent reason). Yesterday she upgraded from the last preview to the first release and her performance took a very noticeable nosedive. I don't know what Microsoft did between the final preview and the first release, but it was clearly something wrong.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Well, my Nvidia drivers worked perfectly throughout the Preview until 10240. Regularly updated, the same build works in 7 and 8.1, so from my pov it wasn't Nvidia's fault. Several months working in all three, then 10240 comes out...

    2. CFWhitman

      Re: sisk

      "Yesterday she upgraded from the last preview to the first release and her performance took a very noticeable nosedive. I don't know what Microsoft did between the final preview and the first release, but it was clearly something wrong."

      This seems pretty typical for Windows releases. They seem fast during preview, but they somehow get much slower at actual release. There are bugs fixed, yes, but that never seemed to be a complete explanation for the performance hit.

  37. thexfile
    Thumb Up

    Win7 64bit is here to stay.

  38. Comic Book Guy

    Everyone has to start somewhere, Hans.

    And that makes three!

  39. Kevin 6

    Wow windows 10 sounds really fun... just like getting a full frontal lobotomy.

    I'm just hoping more game makers start making more(and eventually all) games so they can run on Linux as Windows is getting worst, and worst every iteration. Hoping Valve pushing steam machines will help this along as video games are the only reason I still even use Windows.

    As for the updating breaking things. One MMO I play from what people said worked fine on the preview edition of windows 10, but the final version broke the game.

    As for $10 a year for solitaire(I thought this was a joke till I looked it up)... could always go buy a pack of cards, or play one of the thousand free editions on andriod, and not have to look at the unskippable ads. Seriously idiotic I swear MS is just trying to cause a mass Linux exodus.

  40. bobgameon

    Completetly Pointless

    A new windows gets released and the only gripes people have are completely pointless and half lies. I call that a huge achievement on Microsoft's part.

    I really hope they don't go back on the mandatory updates. Saves me the trouble of having to install all updates before figuring out what the problem is when i get called for tech support at a friends house.

    But i'm sure many people must have seen this as a gripping reason for a move to Linux.

    1. Dan 55 Silver badge
      Trollface

      Re: Completetly Pointless

      I find your posting history to be remarkably short and monothematic.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Completetly Pointless

        @Dan the man

        I find your post to be pointless and ad hominem and idiotic...I find my post to be pointless and ad hominem and idiotic...I find...aargh...infinite loop...

      2. bobgameon

        Re: Completetly Pointless

        What can i say i love windows 10 and everything about it.

        For some reason never got use to Vista, 7 or 8 after XP. But i like 10.

        It's short cause i found out about this website only a few months ago and interestingly an article about windows 10 was listed in Cortana from this website as something i would be interested in.

        And yes before anyone says so, i do have a microsoft account and have signed into the PC using it. Created the account primarily for my windows phone(yes i have one).

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Completetly Pointless

          @bobsomethingorother

          UNMUTUAL! UNMUTUAL UNMUTUAL!

          Chanting mob chases bobetc into the village where he will be assimilated...

        2. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge
          Trollface

          Re: Completetly Pointless

          What can i say i love windows 10 and everything about it.

          The only thing that comes to mind are crazed youngsters of various ethnicities and smartly dressed in suspiciously well-chosen hipster clothing dancing on-premise in a newly opened Microsoft Store.

  41. Yag

    "This work will never be finished."

    Read it as : "The torture never stops"

  42. EastFinchleyite

    Never be the first

    Several dozen moons ago Channel 4 did a excellent documentary series about the design and build of the new Boeing of that time, (the 777?)

    IIRC the project was in delay and the powers that be wanted to test fly the new airframe at the same time as the new engines. Chief Test Pilot opted out of this process requiring the new engines to be tested first. Not popular with the great panjandrums but he stuck to his guns. The engine had a design problem which caused compressor stalls on take-off rotation. If the proposed test had been carried out the results would have been interesting.

    Thankfully Microsoft don't make airliners. I am going to wait until Windows 10 has been in service for a few months before deciding whether to move from 7. A big thanks to all those voluntary early adopters and a big vote of sympathy to those who have no choice.

  43. Eduard Coli
    Big Brother

    Forced lease?

    "Windows as a service" sounds like leased software. Does M$ want to make users constantly pay for software? What will they do when Joe bloke who is used to retiring a PC with the Windows it came with complains about yearly charges for mandatory updates?

    1. Chika
      Coat

      Re: Forced lease?

      "Windows as a service" sounds like leased software.

      It is. Read the EULA.

      Does M$ want to make users constantly pay for software?

      Yes, they do. They have to make up the loss-leader of releasing Windows 10 for free for a year after all and they do seem to like the idea of an app store lock-in like the one Apple uses on iPads and iPhones.

      What will they do when Joe bloke who is used to retiring a PC with the Windows it came with complains about yearly charges for mandatory updates?

      They'll offer to take their payment online using Visa, MasterCard or BitCoin.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Forced lease?

        Quote: "What will they do when Joe bloke who is used to retiring a PC with the Windows it came with complains about yearly charges for mandatory updates?"

        FUD! There are no yearly charges.

        You buy a PC, with Win 10 installed, therefore you've paid MS via OEM licensing.

        All updates are free for the life of the device, so as long as it keeps going, there is nothing to pay MS for again.

        Windows as a service != Windows subscription

  44. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    From cradle to grave

    Doesn't everyone know that all Microsucks O/Ss are unpaid customer beta testing from cradle to grave? Why do you think they charge customers to report Bugs, that Microsucks' refers to as "features".

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: From cradle to grave

      You must be one of those smug Linux users; one of the ones that still hasn't realized that most OSS software never makes it out of the alpha phase, because bugs aren't fun to fix.

  45. Steve 114
    Thumb Up

    Hmmm

    So I downloaded latest, and 'upgraded' a pathetic HP netbook running 'Win7 Starter' as an experiment, Four+ hours later, I had a working Win10 system. To my disappointment (as a Microsoft hater) it 'just worked', and 'windows.old' (20gb) was still there if I wanted to revert. Worse, once I'd undone via 'custom' (in too-small print) all the snooping, with a local account, it respected all my preexisting XP-lookalike settings and desktop and even seems to have preserved Classic Shell. 'Full OED' permissions did prompt an auto-download and CD-resetting. Is it remotely possible that Microsoft might be getting the majority of things right now, if one actually knows how to be cautious?

  46. minitruth

    Seriously - do you guys have nothing else to talk about other than Microsoft? In the whole wide world of technology that's what [consistently] rings your bell? Pardon the cliche, but get a life...

    1. Drewc (Written by Reg staff) Gold badge

      Maybe the biggest launch of the year

      Microsoft is a huge deal and Windows 10 is a huge deal - it affects hundreds of millions of consumers - and millions of businesses. And it launched this week. Readers want to know more about it.

      Normal service will be resumed shortly - mind-you I think you will find we have been publishing plenty of IT stories that do not mention Microsoft.

  47. td97402

    Control Panel or Pc Settings

    The author writes: "Either bin and kill old control panel and functionally fix the new panels, or kill the new panels and do control through control panel."

    I tend to agree but I'd suggest instead:

    Microsoft has a de facto monopoly on business operating systems for computers. The need to remember that and recall that a lot of business do not have the luxury of abandoning legacy systems, can't really afford to retrain thousands of workers, etc. How about insuring that I can manage my computer from Command Shell/Power Shell, Control Panel or PC Settings interchangeably? Oh, and don't forget that I need to manage all the new Metro gimmicks in Group Policy too!

  48. Stu 18

    1 Thessalonians 5 The Day of the Win10

    1But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that ye should be written to, 2for ye know perfectly well yourselves, that the day of [the] Win10 so comes as a thief by night. 3When they may say, Peace and safety, then sudden destruction comes upon them, as travail upon her that is with child or work colleagues; and they shall in no wise escape. 4But *ye*, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day should overtake you as a thief: 5for all *ye* are sons of Linux and sons of day; we are not of night nor of darkness. 6So then do not let us sleep as the rest do, but let us watch and be sober; 7for they that sleep sleep by night, and they that drink drink by night; 8but *we* being of [the] day, let us be sober, putting on [the] breastplate of faith and love, and as helmet [the] hope of salvation; 9because Linus has not set us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our command line, 10who has died on us, that whether we may be watching or sleep, we may live together with him. 11Wherefore encourage one another, and build up each one the other, even as also ye do.

  49. Dreams

    Heard these whining sounds when XP showed up. Later, the same whiners were singing hymns on how XP was God's gift to the computer. Windows 7 was a repeat with the usual babbling doomsayers posting on every board. Later, the same brooding prophets can be heard preaching how Windows 7 is the milk and honey of Xanadu.

    Wah wah wah wah! Shut the hell up!

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Might be my rose-colored "good-ol'-days" glasses, but the only thing I remember that people hated about WinXP on release was the UI, and I don't remember any complaints about Win7 at release. And while everybody was happy about the improvement of Win7 over Vista--and likewise WinXP over 9x--Win8 has generally been much more reviled than Vista, and probably 9x too. Admittedly, we do get some curmudgeons that are still mad that MS hasn't brought the Win3.1 or Win95 GUIs back though.

      Vista was disliked because of the new security model and the new driver model didn't always play nice with XP drivers. Win8 was hated because the GUI didn't belong on a desktop. Win10 is hated because the GUI doesn't belong on a desktop or a tablet and the OS is still half finished.

      And FWIW, by SP3, WinXP was a very different OS than when it launched. IF Microsoft fixes all the bugs, organizes all the stuff that's been scattered in the move to TIFKAM and expands on their scaling concepts so that programs look reasonable on all platforms, THEN people will probably say they like Win10 (in so far as anyone actually likes an OS). But by then, it too will be a very different OS.

  50. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    The article does not mention Twitter integration and full-on advert integration?!?

    With Windows 10, Microsoft has used the opt-out policy rather than opt-in policy for data-slurping and advert pumping! This is against the law. Why is Twitter integrated into the OS? Also why is my machine being identified by an Ad-ID? Lot of data-slurping options are enabled by default. Unsuspecting non-technical users (and there are lots of them) will not know that their machine is being turned into advert receiving device. This OS upgrade is outrageous. Microsoft must have thought, well everyone from Facebook, Twitter, Google and Apple anyway are already screwing users by sending Ads to the user devices and slurping data, so why not us?

  51. DrM
    FAIL

    Wait for WIN10.1

    I ran the update, spent the last six hours installing -- then recovering my drive with partition images of WIN8.1.

    WIN10 would run for 45 seconds, then a BSOD (now light blue) INTERNAL_POWER_ERROR. It worked its way up to 100% complete collecting info and said it would automatically restart -- it didn't, had to use power switch. Third time around it noticed this and sent be off to some huge repair utility program farm, where I could do all sorts of options. Problem was I didn’t need any “reset” or “restore” – needed working code. So I booted from a thumb drive and recovered the 6 partitions on the SSD.

    And here I am, 6 hours older, a bit wiser.

    One of DrM's Laws of Software states that SW version that are even numbers tend to be crap. The X.0 comes out, and it’s crap. They rush out X.1. Then they get clever again, release X.2. Quickly followed by X.3 that actually runs.

    So, let’s all wait for WIN10.1, stick with 8.1 for now.

  52. ScottDrysdale
    Stop

    Selected "Decline" license agreement but Win 10 still tries to install!!!

    I had 2nd thoughts regarding the free Win 10 upgrade but not until I got to the "accept" "decline" agreement screen.... So I selected "decline"..... but Win 10 did not want to stop exactly.... At this stage a lot of Win 10 file downloading had already started in the background. So after Win 10 loading stopped I rebooted.

    And that is when all the big headaches started.....It continually tries to re-install. So I went to the MS help center to look for a fix...... Attempts to rename GWX.exe and GWXUXWorker.exe failed due to TrustInstall restrictions regardless of my Admin access.

    So then I tried the RegEdit method as recommended and that failed! In this case the Gw subdir under HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Policies|Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\ does not exist...... that leaves me with absolutely no path forward now.....

    Anyone else out there in the same situation and able to fix the issue ..... please let me know how....

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Selected "Decline" license agreement but Win 10 still tries to install!!!

      We TOLD you about Win10. We warned you, dawg!

    2. David 132 Silver badge

      Re: Selected "Decline" license agreement but Win 10 still tries to install!!!

      Attempts to rename GWX.exe and GWXUXWorker.exe failed due to TrustInstall restrictions regardless of my Admin access.

      Admin doesn't really mean "admin" any more, not since Windows 7. You know, to protect you from accidentally feeling like you're the one in control of your PC.

      You'll need to take ownership of the GWX* files, then give yourself Full Control permissions, then delete them (might need to kill them from the Task Manager first). Then delete the scheduled tasks that launch GWX*.

  53. Winkypop Silver badge
    Devil

    So

    It's going well then...

  54. MickySlice

    Driver Hell

    Microsoft's QA on patches has always been "interesting" but I'm not entirely against them streamlining the update process as part of Windows 10.

    The one thing that really has bugged me is the forced driver updates though. Ignoring the NVidia sh*tstorm, I have had audio drivers (motherboard and GPU) forced on me that have botched my HDMI audio for my media PC. I understand Microsoft have now released a tool that can block updates but it doesn't seem to be working too well in it's current iteration.

    Why do we need to have drivers forced on us? Surely as an attack vector it is pretty low down on the list?

  55. Allan George Dyer Silver badge
    1. Boothy

      Re: No mention of Double Extensions?

      One of the first changes I do on any Windows system I use/install is to switch of the 'Hide extensions for known file types".

      It's a feature/option that to me, shouldn't even exist in the OS, let alone be enabled by default!

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: No mention of Double Extensions?

        Wasn't that added because the extensions confused too many people?

  56. techcafe

    Win10 Bricks my ThinkPad

    well, after a lengthy download and several reboots later, the upgrade from a clean install of Windows 7 to Windows 10 seemed to go smoothly, right up to the point where i logged-on to the new Windows 10 desktop… then everything froze; no mouse or keyboard response, my ThinkPad crashed on login and everything was locked up solid. i had to kill the power to get the machine restarted. subsequent attempts produced the same result within a few moments of logging on. turns out, as i discovered, that while running Windows 10, the ThinkPad GPU overheats dramatically after a few minutes—it gets very hot in fact—then the laptop becomes unresponsive.

    oh well, Windows 10 was a bust for me, so it's back to Windows 7. and that's the end of that.

  57. Tubz
    FAIL

    W10 Fail

    I think Microsoft need to start with a blank slate and create Windows that we want based on the next version of server, where you get a very small core o/s and then bolt on what you need. Image an install that takes 2 minutes to get the o/s up and running and then you just sit back and watch it install all the optional stuff from the usb pen drive / app store.

    Standard the interface, no mish mash of old skool and bling.

    Dump support for 32-bit and if it doesn't run natively in W1x-64bit, it ain't welcome.

    This will force software companies to overhaul their crap and hopefully remove bugs/vulnerabilities/features or whatever they want to call them.

    All security updates/patches etc must go through Windows Update. with security patches being compulsory.

    Microsoft should buy a real AV+firewall and integrate.

    Dump support for Flash, HTML5 only.

    I could go on, but if they asked users what they want, I sure they would have an o/s that would see them through for many years.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: W10 Fail

      And what do you tell all those businesses that have very expensive, mission-critical, custom-made software that absolutely cannot run on 64-bit Windows or even on Windows versions past XP? There are more of those out there than you think, and they may not be able to call upon the developer to make a new one (they may not exist anymore).

  58. Danny 5
    Mushroom

    Quite clearly

    Microsoft has lost it's mind. In the mad pursuit of short term profits, they've finally managed to do a hari kiri, impressive!

    Microsoft had been showing some promise over the past few years, they went from a company that only cared about $$$$$$ to a company that seemed genuinely interested in what their customers wanted.

    Then came the Xbox one debacle.

    The came the Nokia/Lumia/Windows phone debacle.

    Along the way we had the (arguably unjustified) windows 8 debacle.

    Now we have the windows 10 debacle.

    Does this company really want to destroy itself?

    1. MacGyver

      Re: Quite clearly

      One man did all of this. Steven Sinofsky. He was the one pushing for this "style" of Windows interface and removed anyone that wouldn't drink the Koolaid. Now all they have left steering the boat are his followers. Office Ribbon bar, that was him, Vista, him, Windows 8, all him.

      I'm guessing he sold the investors on a "it will be easier to direct all the sheep to the App Store once all the interfaces are the same" and then all their eyes lit up and filled with $ signs.

      Microsoft needs to start trying to un-feck their GUI and soon.

  59. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Forced updates

    Ha ha, you know all those nasty DRM schemes corporate wanted to add, but no one would knowingly install? You know all that open archetechture that allowed you to rip and copy intellectual property on a whim? Forced updates will tube feed you all the DRM nastyness, the market has rejected. Media center gone. Sounds more and more like forced rear entry.

  60. AJ MacLeod

    Don't like you data? Upgrade to Windows 10!

    I had my first customer with a Windows 10 problem yesterday... upgraded from 8.1 to discover they had no documents left. I assumed there'd been a profile mixup and the files would all be there somewhere, but no - they're gone. They should apparently have been in Windows.old\Documents and Settings but that folder does not exist... until you try to create it, when Windows says you can't because it already exists. Hmmmm. And no, it's not simply hidden...

    1. Lord Lien

      Re: Don't like you data? Upgrade to Windows 10!

      Can you access it via the command prompt?

      1. AJ MacLeod

        Re: Don't like you data? Upgrade to Windows 10!

        No, unfortunately not, I did try that. Having since had a look at the drive using Linux it seems there is a symlink (or whatever the Windows version of symlink is) there which just points to c:\Users (and which doesn't contain the missing data.) It's not visible at all with Windows though... and several file recovery programs have failed to find any trace of the data.

  61. MacGyver

    Just one question for now.

    Why the eye-searing white on white with a 1-pixel wide light-grey area separation line?

    I had to hack a theme to be able to tell where one window stopped and the other started. I mean at least the suck-fest called Office 2013 gave us three theme choices (eye-searing white, eye-searing slightly darker white, and ultra-light grey). Why? Did they fire the guy that knew how to code different color schemes? How is less choice an improvement?

    I'll bitch later about the endless privacy nightmares and the fact I can't uninstall/de-feature their One-Drive (or anything else "built-in" for that matter).

  62. Alan Parsons

    up to 3 months delay

    sorry but ROFL. Most 'Enterprise' companies have some much red tape and bs to overcome there's no way they can test and accept a patch set in 90 days. (especially while further 90 day counters start ticking in the meantime)

    1. ThunderCougarFalconBird

      Re: up to 3 months delay

      I agree. I know where I work, we are only just now installing the June Security Updates!

  63. Howard Hanek Bronze badge
    Windows

    The Secret Behind Its Architecture

    Resembles 'Space Invaders' doesn't it.

  64. bigtimehustler

    It is crap that Microsoft do this, but it really won't be long until someone releases a patch to make home and pro behave like corporate.

  65. Hunkah

    Just use Linux!

    I've been using Linux with the Cinnamon DE for about 10 years. (switched from Gnome 2 to Cinnamon a couple years ago). I choose when to install updates, I can even hand-pick which updates happen. Cinnamon is a familiar interface, much like WinXP or Win7, only I like Cinnamon better.

    All these complaints everyone is having can be fixed with a simple switch to Linux. You have tons of choices in how it looks, how it feels, how it operates, how it installs software... all you need to do is change for the better. Some people will have a little bit of a learning curve as Linux is a different OS, some will welcome the learning curve as it gives you more control over everything. It took me about 2 weeks to get used to the changes when I switched 10 years ago, but I wouldn't ever want to give those changes back. I hate the way windows looks/feels and operates.

    If you're new and don't know... try Linux Mint or Fedora with the Cinnamon DE and you'll understand what I mean.

    1. HKmk23

      Re: Just use Linux!

      If you can get Linux to run Visio or a windows 32 bit legacy program VAGcom or Cumulus weather station I'm in.....but until then it's W7.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Just use Linux!

      But what good is another OS if there isn't enough SOFTWARE to go with it?

  66. HKmk23

    Never thought I would say this

    I'm going to buy more Apple shares....Microsoft has finally fkd themselves and I don't even like Apple products......

  67. wsm

    Not to worry...

    They've broken Office as well. If it was installed before an upgrade, Outlook gives a continuous error until you run a system scan and have it repair a couple of .mui files.

    With something so valuable to the MS ecosystem broken, it'll surely be fixed immediately, right? Right?

    Waiting patiently...

    1. This post has been deleted by its author

  68. ThunderCougarFalconBird

    I've also read somewhere that if a friend comes over to your house and needs to connect to your WiFi and he's running Windows 10, there is a check-box that is checked by default that says that the WiFi password and all WiFi information will be sent to Microsoft. Um...what? I don't think so Microsoft!

  69. Mussie (Ed)

    They can pry..

    They can pry windows 7 out of my COLD DEAD hands.

  70. Shane 4

    Those are only minor things to most of the normal users out there, I am more annoyed by the need to use a Microsoft account to actually use most of the new features in Win 10 like cortana.

    Still many of us out there who prefer a local account only for their main pc.

    Also the new Edge browser has 3 flaws which will piss off a lot of people out there, Can't open multiple tabs in any of your bookmark folders in one click or any clicks that I can see, Can't open a new tab to a page of your choice such as google search home page, It's either top sites(full of crap like facebook,twitter,amazon etc etc), top sites with news or a blank page. No custom option to open a new tab to a site of your choice.

    And the last one is a simple one, Be able to sort your bookmarks by name, Have to currently drag each one to where you want it, A nightmare if you have 100+ bookmarks.

    One other thing missing in edge which they will be adding later is extensions, So you can use your ad blocker and themes etc Should have been there from the start in my opinion!

    Gone back to using IE/Firefox and Chrome until they can sort the mess out in edge browser.

    It is fast though, I'll give it that.

    Other than that Win 10 is pretty good, Basically what Windows 8 should have been, It is quite snappy and managed to set up EVERY driver for every piece of hardware I have, Which was a first for me ever. Usually always something windows manages to miss as I have enthusiast parts.

    I think if you use the MS account you are going to get screwed, Marketing and spying on you galore.

    I would rather just give up the new features like Cortana personal assistant and just use a local account.

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