back to article Windows 10 upgrade ADWARE forces its way on to Windows 7 and 8.1

Microsoft's Get Windows 10 app has started appearing on Windows 7 and 8 boxes, with a one-click option to upgrade free to the new OS from July 29. The company is keen to persuade users to upgrade, particularly following the lacklustre response to Windows 8. At Microsoft’s Build conference, Windows boss Terry Myerson predicted …

  1. Pen-y-gors Silver badge

    I'm confused

    by all this talk of 'apps' - I run Windows 7 on one machine and Win 8.1 on another. Both run programs, not apps. (win 8.1 boots to desktop and has a start menu installed, so it looks very similar to win 7). I have no idea what to do with those silly coloured squares that sometimes appear under Win 8.1 - they don't seem to serve any useful purpose.

    My phone and tablets use android - they run apps.

    How would I run a check Windows 10 app on a windows 7 machine, which only runs programs?

    I'm looking forward to getting a new laptop in a year vor so, with Win 10 installed from scratch, and hopefully without any of these silly 'apps', or Office 365.

    </grumpy old sod mode>

    1. GregC
      Pint

      Re: I'm confused

      My phone and tablets use android - they run apps.

      How would I run a check Windows 10 app on a windows 7 machine, which only runs programs?

      Have a pint on me, for saying what I think every time someone does this. I know in one sense it's only terminology, but I'm also a grumpy old sod at times and I concur completely.

      1. Neil Barnes Silver badge
        Headmaster

        Re: I'm confused

        IS there something about the modern attention span that can't get all the way to the end of 'application'? I mean, I know it's a long word, but even so...

        1. Mike Moyle Silver badge

          Re: I'm confused

          2000 AD was 15 years ago.

          Get with the prog!

          1. elDog Silver badge

            Re: I'm confused

            And Jesus was only 2015 years ago. What would he do?

            1. David Webb

              Re: I'm confused

              2014 years ago, year he was born in would be year 1 not year 0 /pedantic

              1. Morten

                Re: I'm confused

                He was born in year 6 BCE, if you really want to be pedantic...

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: I'm confused

                  To be really pedantic, there's no real evidence he was born at all, the first references to him in the historical record outside the Bible are 80 years after his supposed death.

                  1. Youngone Silver badge

                    Re: I'm confused

                    Ha! Someone gave this a thumbs down. LOL.

                  2. Geoffrey W Silver badge

                    Re: I'm confused

                    <To be really pedantic, there's no real evidence he was born at all, the first references to him in the historical record outside the Bible are 80 years after his supposed death./>

                    I'm getting a bit tired with all this windows 10 griping so I'll jump on this instead. I think you will now find, if you look at some real academic researchers, that there is now not much doubt that Jesus did, indeed, exist. What there IS plenty of is doubt about his divinity. I.E. he was just a man like you and I.

                    1. king of foo

                      Re: I'm confused

                      Jesus definitely existed.

                      He brought us the Jesus phone.

                      He died and was resurrected in 2009. In 2011 he "ascended".

                      So sayeth people who drink tea in coffee shops...

                    2. BongoJoe

                      Re: I'm confused

                      I think you will now find, if you look at some real academic researchers, that there is now not much doubt that Jesus did, indeed, exist. What there IS plenty of is doubt about his divinity. I.E. he was just a man like you and I.

                      I am of the opinion that he did exist. But he was a latter-day Che Guevara, Gandhi, Mandela character with bags of charisma who was eventually put to death by the leaders of his own people who refused to got off their own gravy train and join in.

                      There's one bloke whom I know is a religious scholar and even though he's deeply religious he's also a military man and he told me how a lot of the bible was mistranslated over the years from the shorthand by those later on who didn't understand military matters.

                      Intreagued, I asked him to continue. He told me that one of the shorthand for numbering had the letter L for thousand. It was also a short hand for well trained militia. Now, if one considers stories in the Old Testament which had, for example, five thousand soldiers sneaking into opposing towns or whatever then it makes more sense if one considers that it was five well trained soldiers.

                      Then we get to the sermon the mount. Taken literally having fed the five thousand with a few loaves of bread and a couple of fishes is clearly impossible. Okay, it's seen as a miracle in the bible but let's consider that these five thousand were five members of the Roman forces with whom Jesus met and talked with bringing with him five loaves and two fishes and it now makes sense. But where was the miracle here? Well, consider this a meeting such as we had here in the UK to get the Good Friday treatment going in which Mo Molem received lots of accolades for doing "the impossible". In short, a miracle.

                      And this is what I believed happened.

                      Of course your view may and most certainly will vary on this one.

                      1. fruitoftheloon
                        Thumb Up

                        @BongoJoe: Re: I'm confused

                        Bongo,

                        thanks for that, most interesting (from my very non-religious, but curious standpoint)...

                        Cheers,

                        J

                      2. Brewster's Angle Grinder Silver badge

                        @BongoJo

                        The trouble is the old testament was written in Hebrew and the new in Greek. It seems unlikely they would use the same system. (It also sounds suspiciously like you're alluding to Roman numerals where L is 50 not 5000, and I can't see an "L" equivalent in Greek or Hebrew that has the value 5000.) It's possible this mistake happened when it was translated into Latin, but its more likely that what happened was distorted before it was recorded - much as rumours mutate today. The bible is "entertaining" gossip not factual accounts.

                        1. BongoJoe

                          Re: @BongoJo

                          The trouble is the old testament was written in Hebrew and the new in Greek. It seems unlikely they would use the same system. (It also sounds suspiciously like you're alluding to Roman numerals where L is 50 not 5000, and I can't see an "L" equivalent in Greek or Hebrew that has the value 5000.) It's possible this mistake happened when it was translated into Latin, but its more likely that what happened was distorted before it was recorded - much as rumours mutate today. The bible is "entertaining" gossip not factual accounts.

                          You are correct in pulling me up about the abbreviation "L". I apologise for that; it was my memory. The abbreviation was "lp" and thanks for pulling me up on that.

                          I found the gentleman's website and it is here where he wrote on this and it can be read here:

                          http://battlefieldreview.com/2ndAi.asp

                          The part of the page in question is this part (copy and paste coming up: I apologise for this but I think that it makes for interesting reading).

                          Some commentators have persisted in the ridiculous notion that there were 30,000 Israelites in ambush behind the hill west of Ai where the combat engineers hid, for this is what the Bible account says. However, we need to understand that the King James version of the Bible is the result of translation from Ancient Hebrew into Aramaic into Greek into Latin into English! While the main thrust of the Bible's words are not in question, some of the detail has been muddled. For instance, we know that many of the ancient Egyptian scribes, when copying numbers, for some unknown reason seemed to add an extra zero to the figures being copied.

                          Worse, the copying in much of the Old Testament was done anciently in a form of shorthand, in which it was the practice to simply drop the vowels from each word. And herein lies a problem: the word for "thousand" was elleph and the word for "warrior" or, in the Bible, a "mighty man" - meaning a regular soldier as opposed to a conscripted levy or a militia man - was alluph, and if the shorthand was employed they both became lp! Which is correct in this case? 30,000 or 30? Let's think about it for a moment - would it be possible to hide thirty thousand men less than five hundred yards (485m) from their target town with wide-awake watchers? No: the noise of their collective wriggling and belching would be heard a mile away! It has to be just thirty. Anyway, how many men do you need to set fire to a small and empty town? Again, thirty seems about right.

                          On the other hand, when the record says that Joshua sent 5000 to loop around to the right and hide behind his own command position, it only makes sense if, indeed, there were 5,000; what effect would five men have had, charging into the rear of the Ai-ites?

                          What we are saying is that to understand the records - of any war - it helps to first understand the way the records were made up, the mechanics of the recording. (For the record - pardon the pun! - it is interesting to see that the same numbers problem affects the story of the Israelites under Moses trekking across Sinai after leaving Egypt. In the Biblical book of Numbers the total of the people is given as 603,550 - and that's just the men over twenty years of age, quite apart from their families. At Elim were twelve wells; that's an average of over 50,000 men assigned water from each well. They'd die of thirst just waiting their turn to draw the water! If, however, we apply the elleph/alluph rule the figures change dramatically. This now translates that were 598 regular soldiers and 5550 other men available as instant soldiers when the need arose. Now that number, with their families, would have been able to survive the water queues at Elim. As we said, you need to understand the way the recorders worked. It also helps if you know the type of person who wrote the record; if a copy clerk in a monastery is writing about the technicalities of battle he's likely to get it wrong here and there; we need to read between the lines he ignorantly wrote.)

                    3. Anonymous Coward
                      Anonymous Coward

                      Re: I'm confused

                      Perhaps he was not the Messiah, but just a very naughty boy!

                    4. Loyal Commenter Silver badge

                      Re: I'm confused

                      I'm getting a bit tired with all this windows 10 griping so I'll jump on this instead. I think you will now find, if you look at some real academic researchers, that there is now not much doubt that Jesus did, indeed, exist. What there IS plenty of is doubt about his divinity. I.E. he was just a man like you and I.

                      There's also some pretty compelling evidence that the 'divinity' aspect of JC was back-ported from the cult of Mithras, which was contemporary to the rise of Christianity in the first few centuries CE (I'm not using AD, as nobody is my 'lord'), and has its origins at least 1400 years before then. After all, it IS historical fact that the Bible was written by several authors well after the death of the historical figure that was JC, and subsequently heavily edited by various 'official' churches a number of times thereafter to suit the social and political climate of the time.

                    5. TCMuffin

                      Re: I'm confused

                      ...or woman

                  3. Grimsterise

                    Re: I'm confused

                    As an atheist with an interest in Biblical history I have to point out that evidence for the existence of a historical Jesus is very good. He was a itinerant Jewish Rabbi with an apocalyptic understanding of Judaism and was knocked on the head by the Romans. The son of god stuff was made up later.

                  4. SolidSquid

                    Re: I'm confused

                    Technically the bible itself wasn't a contemporary source anyway, it was written decades later (I suspect the earliest book written was where you got the 80 years ago) based on the oral traditions of Christians at the time

                2. Youngone Silver badge

                  Re: I'm confused

                  Or perhaps he was never born at all. The evidence for him is pretty unconvincing really.

                3. Michael Habel Silver badge

                  Re: I'm confused

                  He was born in year 6 BCE, if you really want to be pedantic...

                  Yeah it kinda figures that even the Church can't work out what the dates are...

                  Perhaps the Doctor, Doctor Emmit Brown, Bill & Ted etc... Could just pop 'round and have a noise in... And, just possibly put this whole charade of divinity to rest?

                  Though I don't know how I'd feel if they all came back, (With Pictures!, or better Phablet Movies), of that Cat turning Water into Wine feeding x number of People with just that one Fish etc...

                  1. Mystic Megabyte Silver badge
                    Holmes

                    Re: I'm confused @Michael habel

                    I bet are happy to believe in the Big Bang theory. A Quantum fluctuation that did not annihilate itself a moment after it popped into existence? The technical term for this would be "a fecking miracle". Maybe the Universe willed itself to exist, stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

                    1. Spoddyhalfwit

                      Re: I'm confused @Michael habel

                      Well if you find the Big Bang hard to handle, what about the question of who created God?

                  2. Andrew Richards

                    Re: I'm confused

                    > Yeah it kinda figures that even the Church can't work out what the dates are...

                    Theologians exist largely to count angels and justify fairly obvious discrepancies that were introduced but can't be corrected.

                    What's important for dates: solar or lunar calendar? Let's have both (Christmas, Easter respectively). Creation story? Let's have two in Genesis within a few lines. Commandments? Yes, ten please. Although there's more than one list and they're not exactly the same. And there's more than ten, too.

                    Don't like gay people? Justify that nonsense on the old testament. And ignore lots of other stuff that's just as explicitly prohibited but less convenient. (Gay: no; shellfish: don't care; mixed fabrics: don't care; blatant hypocrisy: don't care, obviously.).

                    1. Kiwi Silver badge
                      Angel

                      Re: I'm confused

                      Before I start, interests of disclosure etc etc etc.. Fairly "fundamentalist" Christian here - but in a different sense to most - I prefer to get right back to the basic Biblical roots of my faith, rather than the "Westboro" et al brands of fundamentalism.

                      I'm also probably more correctly ID's as "bisexual" but I am pretty much gay, certainly find guys much more attractive than gals. And yes, I did spend some of my life with a rather nasty view of "gay" people - there were many mistakes made in the church back then. Still many today, but things are getting better - and largely because people are coming to understand the concepts of grace and forgiveness over the "law" - things like that you talk about below.

                      Creation story? Let's have two in Genesis within a few lines.

                      I've heard people talk about this often but.. I've never been able to read it. I read the Bible cover-cover in a repeating sequence, ie I start at page 1 and read a small amount each day until I get to the end then start again, and also read other bits as desired whether for study, fact-checking, or pleasure (yes, some of it is quite pleasureable to read - other bits I dislike but still read). I have read Genesis 1 & 2 many times over the years, in different translations (english translations covering some 400-odd years), and do not see 1&2 as different stories. It's like reading many manuals and other texts, including newspaper articles. The first part gives a basic run-down (whether first paragraph in a newspaper article or introduction/first chapter in a computer manual) and the next chapter gives more detail on a specific subject. I am yet to see the conflict.

                      Commandments? Yes, ten please. Although there's more than one list and they're not exactly the same. And there's more than ten, too.

                      You should look into that a little more. There's only one key set of 10, which relate to how to treat God and how to treat other people (the ones like not murdering, not stealing, not cheating on your spouse and so on).

                      There are other laws, that's true. But there's ceremonial laws, and health laws, things like that. Not all apply outside of the people they're directed to. Those commonly called "The 10 commandments" are global. The rest aren't.

                      Don't like gay people? Justify that nonsense on the old testament. And ignore lots of other stuff that's just as explicitly prohibited but less convenient. (Gay: no; shellfish: don't care; mixed fabrics: don't care; blatant hypocrisy: don't care, obviously.).

                      Yeah, that sort of stuff has been a problem for a while. Still is for some people as well. Sadly only in the last couple of months I had someone giving me a bit of hassle for being gay, quoting a certain passage from the Bible. I asked him about the clothes he was wearing, and pointed out that the same section of laws cover clothes and other things as well. I also love to point out the other stuff in those passages at times.

                      Change is coming, and people are getting to see that grace, forgiveness, and most of all love, kindness and mercy are the important things. In many places in the Bible God says that He prefers kindness and mercy over sacrifice and judgement.

                      What many in the church has spouted for a long time does not line up with the Bible. It is a slow process, but things are improving. And if you want to know what the Bible says for itself, read it carefully yourself. Forget about what other people have to say, read it and let it interpret itself.

                      Hope this helps someone...

                  3. Kubla Cant Silver badge

                    Re: I'm confused

                    Yeah it kinda figures that even the Church can't work out what the dates are...

                    To be fair, the dates weren't worked out until five centuries after the putative event, so it's not a bad guess. Anno Domini was invented by Dionysius Exiguus (Little Dennis) in 525 AD.

                  4. Anonymous Coward
                    Anonymous Coward

                    Re: I'm confused

                    "Yeah it kinda figures that even the Church can't work out what the dates are..."

                    They thought it was one date, but later on smart archeologist/historian types decided it was several years earlier.

                    Like Microsoft thinking Windows 8 was a great idea before the cyber villagers turned up with pitchfork and flaming torches in Redmond, then Microsoft backpeddled marginally (1/8 turn)

                4. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: I'm confused

                  'He' probably never existed, uber pedant.

                5. Andrew Richards

                  Re: I'm confused

                  Depends on how you define "He". I'm sure lots of chaps were born in 6BCE and some probably called Jesus.

                  Not quite sure I'd go for one of them being son-of-god, though. (Pedantry overload!)

                6. Hans 1 Silver badge
                  Joke

                  Re: I'm confused

                  Was he ? Do we have evidence or a witness ?

                  Where are Jehova witnesses when you need them ...

              2. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: I'm confused

                Jesus would use Apple

                1. Cynic_999 Silver badge

                  Re: I'm confused

                  "

                  Jesus would use Apple

                  "

                  No, you're thinking of Adam - and it got him into a whole shitload of trouble.

                2. Tromos

                  Re: I'm confused

                  "Jesus would use Apple"

                  Adam tried that and see where it got him.

                3. Tom 13

                  Re: Jesus would use Apple

                  Definitely not. He told the rich man to sell all his worldly goods and donate them to the poor if he wished to enter Heaven.

        2. Curtis

          Re: I'm confused

          Given the state of the US Public Edumacation System, I believe the issue is more that they can't SPELL to the end of applikayshun

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: I'm confused

            Came upon a broken down car at a rest area on US I-70 near the Colorado/Utah state line a couple of hours ago.

            A scrawled bit of paper on the dash said

            'Bok, back 5/31/15'

            The writer clearly didn't get back yesterday.

            But what struck me was that 'Bok' short for Borked or Broke/Broken?

            Ain't the US EDU System wonderful....

            {said car was being towed and was gonna cost the owner/driver at least $500 to get it back because we were 50 miles from the nearest services}

            This bit of I-70 has signs saying 'Eagles on Road'. Now that would be something worth seeing.

            1. Roj Blake Silver badge

              Re: I'm confused

              "This bit of I-70 has signs saying 'Eagles on Road'. Now that would be something worth seeing."

              It's good of them to let you know about another Eagles comeback tour.

            2. BongoJoe

              Re: I'm confused

              This bit of I-70 has signs saying 'Eagles on Road'. Now that would be something worth seeing.

              Here in Wales all we're told is that we have Mud on Road.

              Not quite the same as those FM Rockers of yours.

              1. magickmark
                Coat

                Re: I'm confused

                Ahh but you have to love those Tiger Feet!!

            3. Nigel 11

              Re: I'm confused

              was that 'Bok' short for Borked or Broke/Broken?

              Or somebody's (nick)name?

            4. MJI Silver badge

              Re: Eagles on road

              I suppose it must have crashed while on a day trip to the moon.

              http://www.scifiairshow.com/ships-eagle4.html

            5. LesB
              Happy

              Re: I'm confused

              Christoper Robin must have written that...

              GON OUT

              BACKSON

              BISY

              BACKSON

              C.R.

              (Or so Tigger told me)

            6. Wensleydale Cheese Silver badge
              Happy

              Re: I'm confused

              This bit of I-70 has signs saying 'Eagles on Road'. Now that would be something worth seeing.

              Has Joe Walsh got his driving licence back?

            7. Adze

              Re: I'm confused

              Maybe it was an initialization? Bok - Bring own kangaroo? Buy our kar? Maybe it's Better off hitching and it's really a lower case h and not a k at all! The possibilities, while far from endless, are huge!

        3. John Brown (no body) Silver badge
          Thumb Up

          Re: I'm confused

          "IS there something about the modern attention span that can't get all the way to the end of 'application'? "

          My "apps" have been in c:\apps since the 80's when we only had 8.3 filenames and directories :-)

          1. Belardi

            Re: I'm confused

            Uh, only crappy 8bit computers or that very crappy MS-DOS had 8.3 File names.

            Amiga computers had 64~128 character file names (I don't remember), that could even be "###~.4.4" ie: "Great Ferrari Card.jpeg"

            Macintosh computers, also had long file names.

            It wasn't until Windows 95 (1995) - 10+ years after the Amiga and Mac, that they had semi-long file names (in the CMD window, it was back to 8.3) and WindowsXP that MS made a modern mainstream OS for the massess... 15+ years after Mac, Amiga.

            1. Kubla Cant Silver badge

              Re: I'm confused

              @Belardi Uh, only crappy 8bit computers or that very crappy MS-DOS had 8.3 File names.

              The 16-bit PDP-11 operating systems RSTS/E, RT-11 and RSX-11 all used even shorter (6.3) filenames. So, IIRC, did the DEC-10 and DEC-20 mainframes. They may be old, but in no sense were they either crappy or 8-bit.

              1. Belardi

                Re: I'm confused

                I was responding more about the decade... not the 60s~70's mini-computers in which the PDP-11 used to be State of the Art.

                But by mid-80s... MSDOS was very much rooted to 70s tech since its a bastardized version of CP/M when you get down to it. How much did Bill Gates pay for that reverse engineered OS again?

                So yeah, I do get it. Lets look at the GeForce Ti 4200... a very kick ass card in its day. Yet its faster(cough) "replacement" the Geforce 5600 was obviously sub-standard (never-mind the pure crapola known as the 5200, which sold for many many years).

                I still have some of my 8bit and Amigas... I wonder if they still work?

                I'm pretty much sure the data on my 5.25 and 3.5" floppies have long flaked off... :( I'm afraid to find out.

        4. nijam

          Re: I'm confused

          Having grown up in a medical family, I know that an "application" is like a cream or an ointment, except that it's to treat infections that are not mentioned in polite company.

        5. alpine

          Re: I'm confused

          "IS there something about the modern attention span that can't get all the way to the end of 'application'? I mean, I know it's a long word, but even so..."

          It's just what they lean at Uni these days.

      2. mattrundle1234
        Linux

        Re: I'm confused

        check Windows 10, Do you mean check to see if your Computer with Windows 7 can run Windows 10?

    2. Stephen Leslie

      Re: I'm confused

      It's easy to get rid of the apps on a Windows 8/8.1/10 install:

      Start PowerShell with admin privileges.

      Type in:

      get-appxpackage -allusers | remove-appxpackage

      Hit Enter

      All the unprotected packages will be zapped. A couple are protected e.g. Settings, Store etc. but it's best they stay in case you need them at some point.

      1. CAPS LOCK Silver badge

        Re: Re: I'm confused

        Command line - I lolled.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        @Stephen Leslie - Re: I'm confused

        What do you mean "protected" ? I want them removed and I assume all risks for that, I'm a competent admin. If after that I see it's broken then I will repair it but don't tell me I'm not allowed to do it.

        1. Stephen Leslie

          Re: @Stephen Leslie - I'm confused

          I cant speak for the situation, but when you use the remove-appxpackage command, a few of the app associated packages do not get removed

          E.g. Weather, Sports, Calculator, Finance, Food etc. etc. etc. are all removed. The more "basic" app stuff e.g. the Store app itself and the Settings app (which you need to change the computer's settings), are not removed. I think they must be "protected"; that's all I meant.

        2. Dan Paul

          Re: @Stephen Leslie - I'm confused

          "App" arently you are confused. The procedure stated by Mr. Leslie removes all the "apps" except the few that you need to access the "App" store and make settings for same. You may be a competent "admin" but removing required system files is not the way to show it.

      3. Michael Habel Silver badge

        Re: I'm confused

        It's easy to get rid of the apps on a Windows 8/8.1/10 install:

        Start PowerShell with admin privileges.

        Type in:

        get-appxpackage -allusers | remove-appxpackage

        Hit Enter

        All the unprotected packages will be zapped. A couple are protected e.g. Settings, Store etc. but it's best they stay in case you need them at some point

        Are you sure you haven't left out a sudo somewhere? Or, an apt- over there?

      4. Big-nosed Pengie

        Re: I'm confused

        "a Windows 8/8.1/10 install"

        I suspect you mean installation.

        1. Cynic_999 Silver badge

          Re: I'm confused

          "

          "a Windows 8/8.1/10 install"

          I suspect you mean installation.

          "

          Could be either. "Install" meaning the act of creating an installation.

      5. hplasm Silver badge
        Happy

        Re: I'm confused

        It's easy to get rid of the apps on a Windows 8/8.1/10 install:

        Start PowerShell with admin privileges.

        Type in:format c:

      6. Tom 13

        Re: It's easy to get rid of the apps

        You've quite missed the point. Like spam, it isn't something which should require an action on my part to "fix".

    3. tony72

      Re: I'm confused

      We called applications "apps" back in the day, so obviously you are either a) not old enough, or b) so old you've forgotten. Don't take my word for it, have a look for example at this article from PC Mag in 1997; "This separation of storage into apps and data [...] If you intermingle apps and data in your directories[...]" etc etc. Yes, the term has been appropriated in current popular usage to refer primarily to mobile applications, but I'm sure I'm not the only one who still uses "app" as simply an abbreviation for "application".

      1. Colin Ritchie
        Windows

        Re: I'm confused

        If you are that old, you will also remember:

        "Unix for innovation, Mac for productivity, Windows for Solitaire."

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: I'm confused

          What I remember is thinking 'apps' was pretentious marketing-speak, from day one.

          Or is that 'day zero'?

          1. ratfox Silver badge
            Paris Hilton

            Re: I'm confused

            Nonsense. How could Jesus Christ have been born in 6 BC, that is in year 6 Before Christ??

            1. Andrew Jones 2

              Re: I'm confused

              Presumably he only started believing (or perhaps Mary told him to pretend so as not to spoil her 'virgin' lie) when he was the age of 6.....

            2. Morten

              Re: I'm confused

              BCE, before Common Era. "BC" and "AD" has been deprecated.

              If you remember your bible, Jesus was born when there was a census. And this census was about 6 BCE.

              1. Andrew Richards

                Re: I'm confused

                ... and if you don't really believe the bible to have any literal truth all this is as relevant as dating things relative to Harry Potter's birth.

              2. Grimsterise

                Re: I'm confused

                Sorry, but that census was made up to get the holy family to bethlehem, because the messiah was supposed to be born there (of the line of David). But Jesus was from Galilee, so: retrofit!

              3. PassingStrange

                Re: I'm confused

                "If you remember your bible, Jesus was born when there was a census. And this census was about 6 BCE."

                Except I'm assured by historians that there's no record whatsoever of the Romans ever asking populations to move all over the Empire in the way the biblical verses require. Whereas there WAS an interpretation of Micah 5:2 requiring the Messiah to come from Bethlehem. Taking the two together, the "census" bit sounds suspiciously like a Monty Python-style skit:

                "You're not making much progress on this bit, Luke. Writer's block?

                "A bit, yeah."

                "Let's see if I can help. Start with the easy stuff. He was born in Nazareth, right?"

                "Bethlehem."

                "Bethlehem?! Joseph and Mary lived in Nazareth!"

                "He must have been born in Bethlehem. He's the Messiah, so it has to be Bethlehem."

                "You're off your trolley. That's over 70 miles! Joseph wouldn't take a pregnant wife all that way! On those roads, too!"

                "Well- maybe he had to. Maybe he had no choice."

                "Oh yeah? Like what? Did Mary suddenly get cravings for some bread and fish from that little shop they saw in Bethlehem when they were on holiday? Or - did Caesar Augustus suddenly go mental and tell half the flamin' empire to go home so that he could tax them?"

                "Say that again?"

                "I said, 'Did a decree go from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be registered'?"

                "Here, you've got something there. He wouldn't have had any choice, would he? That's good, that is. Let's see... '...should...be... registered.' Great. Job done; I'll fill in the detail later. So anyway ... what was that bit about loaves and fishes again?"

            3. Trigonoceps occipitalis

              Re: I'm confused

              I thought we adopted BCE to solve this problem?

            4. Kubla Cant Silver badge

              Re: I'm confused

              How could Jesus Christ have been born in 6 BC, that is in year 6 Before Christ??

              The original post said he was born in 6 BCE. BCE is the politically correct religion-neutral version of BC. It stands for Before Common Era.

              1. Tom 13

                @Kubla Cant Re: The original post said he was born in 6 BCE.

                The original question stands whether you write it as BC or BCE, as either way it works out to before the date commonly attributed to his birth.

                What the haters aren't willing to admit is that the discrepancy is the result of miscalculations of one of the faithful that were not part of the Holy Word. More sadly, the haters are also unwilling to admit they've killed more people than believers have.

                1. BongoJoe

                  Re: @Kubla Cant The original post said he was born in 6 BCE.

                  the haters are also unwilling to admit they've killed more people than believers have

                  Perhaps because they haven't.

            5. SolidSquid

              Re: I'm confused

              Because the Council of Nicaea said so I'm guessing

        2. Stephen Leslie

          Re: I'm confused

          Solitaire and Minesweeper are more fun. I like the Chess game too.

        3. Michael Habel Silver badge

          Re: I'm confused

          "Unix for innovation, Mac for productivity, Windows for Solitaire."

          Sounds about right to me...

      2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: I'm confused

        1997? That's far from being "back in the day". It's you who's not old enough.

      3. Purple-Stater

        Re: I'm confused

        I was taught (in USAF programming school) that an "application" or "app" was a group of programs brought together to perform a series of tasks centered around a common function. By that definition, most apps are not apps, simply programs.

    4. JayKay

      Re: I'm confused

      Amen.

      Apps run on iOS, Applications run on OS X.

      Windows runs Programs.

    5. Michael Habel Silver badge

      Re: I'm confused

      I'm looking forward to getting a new laptop in a year vor so, with Win 10 installed from scratch, and hopefully without any of these silly 'apps', or Office 365.

      And I hope to win the Euromillions, Powerball & Megamillions Lotteries too.... Though I don't really expect that to happen either... Unless your thinking of some flavor of Ubuntu w/Libreoffice installed... I think MicroSoft, are for Once actually stating quite clearly, and with the utmost distinction. That the days of a ~5 Year OS + Word, are over!

    6. fung0

      Re: I'm confused

      "I'm confused by all this talk of 'apps' - I run Windows 7 on one machine and Win 8.1 on another. Both run programs, not apps."

      On the contrary - the shift to 'apps' is the truly insidious thing about Windows 8 and 10. These releases represent an intensive, ongoing effort on Microsoft's part to shift users from 'applications' to 'apps.' These new apps run in a brand-new walled garden that's sealed even more hermetically than iOS. And Microsoft really is attempting to force us to switch. Office is being app-ized. Their new Edge browser is an app. Some of the built-in utilities of Windows are being replaced in Windows 10 by apps. Microsoft has stated repeatedly that Universal Windows *Apps* are "The Future of Windows Development." THE future, not one part of some mixed application/app future.

      The vast difference between 'apps and 'applications' is the main reason I will NOT be upgrading to Windows 10. EVER. I have, however, been shifting my work to Linux Mint, and it looks really great so far. Not an 'app' in sight, and just as free as the Windows 10 upgrade. (Only without the numerous advertising "opportunities" that have been built into Windows 10.)

    7. mattrundle1234
      Linux

      Re: I'm confused

      What's an App?

      App is short for Application, but it's more a Posh word for a Program. An application is a program. The programs now called apps on Windows 8.1 are meant to look more fancy than traditional programs that were in Windows 7.

      Apps are usually considered quicker to load because the information is made smaller.

      An app means you don't always have to use your Web browser such as Internet Explorer browser,.For example if you have a Facebook app, it will take you instantly to the Facebook login, it means you don't have to go to Internet Explorer to do it.

      With me so far? don't worry if you're not!

      Depending on whether you use Touch screen or mouse and keyboard, you could use any of these techniques in Windows 8.1, to make it look good to what suits you best!

      Touch screen:

      Moving apps?

      Pressing and holding an App will make it move out of it's place, you'll know it has moved out of place, because the app moves towards you, hold the app down and drag, this is similar to clicking and dragging applications in Windows 7, only with a touch Screen and your finger is the mouse. Once you choose where you want the App, tap anywhere on the screen where there's no apps, this will un highlight the App and lock it into place.

      Resizing apps?

      Press and hold the app again , you see that arrow? press it and your App will change size.

      If you're using a mouse, right click the app, and choose small, medium or Large they are the 3 main types.

      Do the same again by holding the app down on a touch screen or right clicking if you use a mouse, you have 3 options:

      Uninstall? will remove the App from your computer completely.

      Pin to taskbar? This will move the app onto your familiar Desktop.

      Unpin from start? This will remove the app from sight of the start screen, start screen is the main screen with all the colourful boxes, and is normally the first thing you see after 8.1 loads.

      Windows 10 is easier to use than Windows 8.1 you will have your start menu back and familiar desktop. Windows 10 start menu is split into two lists Traditional programs on on side, apps on the other.

  2. Fraphi

    Free*

    It may be worth saying that it is free for a year from release ie until 29/7/2016. It also does not have to be installed straight away at least that's the impression the reservation adware gives.

    1. Ketlan

      Re: Free*

      'It may be worth saying that it is free for a year from release ie until 29/7/2016.'

      This is confusing the crap out of me. From some sources, it's clear that this is a permanent giveaway, presumably because MS is looking to make its money on apps/programs. From others, I understand that this is free for a single year, after which there is a subscription charge, monthly or annually. Could anyone state - with absolute confidence - which is the correct scenario?

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Free*

      It's free forever, you only have 1 year to upgrage (e.g. if you upgrade it on July 28th 2016 it' gonna be free, but if you do it on July 30th, it's gonna cost you).

      1. Shooter

        Re: Free*

        Bummer. Given the speed of my DSL connection (semi-rural area), it will probably take until 2017 to download the package - if I start now.

    3. Old Handle

      Re: Free*

      It's clear that you can keep running Windows 10 indefinitely if you install within the first year, but what I wonder is whether it will be possible to reinstall after that year is up, should the need arise. If not, I'm not sure I'd want to put myself in that position, even if it turns out Window 10 is better than the current offerings.

      1. Ketlan

        Re: Free*

        That's made it all clearer. Thanks, guys.

      2. Andrew Jones 2

        Re: Free*

        According to the Microsoft forum, there will be an ISO available - there are A LOT of people wanting to know if it will be possible to do a fresh install instead of an upgrade. The Community support people say that the details haven't been released yet. We assume you will be able to upgrade your existing product key to a Windows 10 product key. It would certainly be preferable for me to a fresh install, upgrades might go smoothly but there are always cases where software and or drivers - interfere with the process..

        1. jason 7

          Re: Free*

          Well going by recent developments with 8 Upgrades etc. it seems you can at least install 'fresh' but the new install gathers up all the 'old OS/software' into one big archive which you can delete later.

          Works well and not like the old day when I would cringe at hearing from my Boss -

          "Oh I upgraded that Win3.1 laptop with the Win95 upgrade floppies...seems a bit flakey but it might work..."

          Uggghhhh.

      3. Tom 13

        Re: Free*

        Also, the free upgrade is NOT available to businesses, even if they've chosen to run a consumer version of the OS. Or so MS claims.

    4. Charles Manning

      "Reserve Your Free"

      Having to reserve something is trying to make it sound like this is a scarce and precious commodity. They should really have just said "sign up for"

      But, hey, people are stupid and MS is primarily a marketing company....

  3. Stephen Leslie

    It's notice-ware not adware

    Microsoft on Windows notice-ware. Nothing is being sold. But Windows is about to be upgraded! If in 20 years of Windows I get one notice like this for no cost upgrade, I'm not going to be upset. You'd have to be the most uptightest of prudes and then some to be upset about this.

    1. Charles 9 Silver badge

      Re: It's notice-ware not adware

      Well, as long as they don't nag you and you can make the icon go away once you've made your decision, then it's just a friendly by-the-way, and I don't mind that.

      That said, when I ran the update check, it noted the common Broadcom Bluetooth Adapter isn't on the compatibility list as of this time. Now a deal-breaker as the checker notes, but it still raises an eyebrow as to what other types of hardware aren't going to make the cut.

      1. Khaptain Silver badge

        Re: It's notice-ware not adware

        How to remove this "I did not request this to be shoved in my face publicity adware"...

        http://superuser.com/questions/922068/how-to-disable-the-get-windows-10-icon-shown-in-the-notification-area-tray

        1. chivo243 Silver badge

          Re: It's notice-ware not adware

          @Khaptain

          Thanks man! I will still look for the Group Policy setting...

          up vote for you sir!

    2. chivo243 Silver badge
      Angel

      Re: It's notice-ware not adware

      Have an upvote for your comment. However, I support some users( THE uptightest prudes) who would not know or appreciate the significance of this little marketing campaign. I will be looking for the GPO to block this posthaste.

    3. Alan W. Rateliff, II
      Paris Hilton

      Re: It's notice-ware not adware

      "You'd have to be the most uptightest of prudes and then some to be upset about this."

      Or a network administrator.

  4. Nolveys Silver badge
    Windows

    You Know Windows 10 Is Going To Be Good...

    ...because Microsoft has to force it down users throats with an industrial pile driver.

    1. Jack of Shadows Silver badge

      Re: You Know Windows 10 Is Going To Be Good...

      My perception is that they want everyone on the same everything, then they can do the support split as consumers vs. enterprise with consumers as guinea-pigs. From both an engineering and economic view it makes sense. But when has logic entered into it for Microsoft or their haters.

      1. Nolveys Silver badge
        Mushroom

        Re: You Know Windows 10 Is Going To Be Good...

        support split as consumers vs. enterprise with consumers as guinea-pigs. From both an engineering and economic view it makes sense.

        Using "customers" as cannon fodder is clearly the way to increase market share. When small business users are looking at that new phone with the exact same interface they remember from when they clicked the "get free stuff" button and broke all their weird-ass software they'll think "Yes! I want to have that wonderful experience again!"

        Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm off to the primate exhibit at the zoo. I have to install a handgun dispenser.

        1. GrumpenKraut Silver badge
          Pint

          Re: You Know Windows 10 Is Going To Be Good...

          > Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm off to the primate exhibit at the zoo. I have to install a handgun dispenser.

          You Sir, you deserve a beer.

    2. andyheat

      Re: You Know Windows 10 Is Going To Be Good...

      It's not being forced down your throat - you're given the opportunity to upgrade. Don't want it? Don't use the icon or uninstall the update that provided it.

      It's no different to Apple advertising a big banner on the home page of the Apple Store when a new version of OSX is available.

      1. JP19

        Re: You Know Windows 10 Is Going To Be Good...

        "It's no different to Apple advertising a big banner on the home page"

        Microsoft used windows update to install an advertising spam application on users machines without asking. It a million miles away from a banner advert on a web page.

        1. 142

          Re: You Know Windows 10 Is Going To Be Good...

          > Microsoft used windows update to install an advertising spam application on users machines without asking.

          Apple told me about Yosemite in a similar manner on Mavericks...

          1. Hans 1 Silver badge

            Re: You Know Windows 10 Is Going To Be Good...

            >Apple told me about Yosemite in a similar manner on Mavericks...

            In the App store, yes ... not "quite" similar ... similar to Windows 8.1, yes, to Windows 10 ? Not quite ... plus, check your scheduled tasks, this shit is gonna do stuff ...

        2. Grade%

          Re: You Know Windows 10 Is Going To Be Good...

          "Microsoft used windows update to install an advertising spam application on users machines without asking."

          Exactly. Now I will give you the finger while you give me my phone call. Ooops, wrong reality. Sorry.

    3. glussier

      Re: You Know Windows 10 Is Going To Be Good...

      Iff Microsoft was forcing windows 10 down your throat, you wouldn't have a choice, but you do have one, don't you?

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: You Know Windows 10 Is Going To Be Good...

      They want them to permanently surrender their windows 7 licence keys in exchange for a gimped version that runs this weeks plan for world domination..

      And as for "Windows 7 and 8.1 users with automatic updates enabled"

      That's mission the word RETAIL as OEM installs aren't included, at least mine didn't seem to be (not that I wanted a one way downgrade anyway)

      1. Bluto Nash

        Re: You Know Windows 10 Is Going To Be Good...

        Dunno about that who "Retail" thing - my little Zotac box with "Windows 8.1 with Bing!" got the notice, and it's about as OEM as you'll find.

      2. jason 7

        Re: You Know Windows 10 Is Going To Be Good...

        My Dell OEM is included. Got the icon yesterday.

        1. Roland6 Silver badge

          Re: You Know Windows 10 Is Going To Be Good...

          Just got it now!

          Don't you just love the way it auto installs without asking!

    5. leexgx

      Re: You Know Windows 10 Is Going To Be Good...

      i know quite a number of systems that are not strictly legitimate (or not at all) but i seen this Free upgrade is been offered on systems i quite sure its not going to be valid on (guess if they do install it i can see lots of KMS installs to correct it, as it should not even start the install unless its eligible)

  5. Gannettt

    I'm a Windows 7 user, I'm curious to see what Win 10 is like, but reluctant to blow away my Win 7 install. Might just wait a few months and then give it a go.

    1. hazzamon

      Why not create a system image...

      ...on backup media, then rollback to that if you're not happy with Windows 10?

      1. Hans 1 Silver badge

        Re: Why not create a system image...

        Good luck activating your Windows 7 again after the first windows update install... surely you will have to call Redmond ...

    2. glussier

      Why would you have to blow your win7 install. You can image your win7 install, try win10, and, if you don't like it, restore your win7 image.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Windows 10 Upgrade

        Because you'll be trading your Windows 7 license for Windows 10. Windows 7 will no longer have a valid license and probably not activate.

        1. dogged

          Re: Windows 10 Upgrade

          > Because you'll be trading your Windows 7 license for Windows 10. Windows 7 will no longer have a valid license and probably not activate.

          Aha! Here comes the FUD.

          Actually Win10 has a built-in tool to roll back to your old OS version if you decide you don't like it. But nice try, AC! You might frighten a few newbs with that one!

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Windows 10 Upgrade

            Does it roll it back WITH LICENCE? T This is Microsoft, 10x more evil that apple and Google combined.

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Windows 10 Upgrade

            " Actually Win10 has a built-in tool to roll back to your old OS version if you decide you don't like it. But nice try, AC! You might frighten a few newbs with that one! "

            You mean the Windows 10 preview (beta test software) has this tool to revert back to a working production version of the OS. There's no guarantee the final version will do so, since MS is trying to get all of their user base on Windows 10.

            1. Hans 1 Silver badge

              Re: Windows 10 Upgrade

              >You mean the Windows 10 preview (beta test software) has this tool to revert back to a working production version of the OS. There's no guarantee the final version will do so, since MS is trying to get all of their user base on Windows 10.

              To be fair, the nagware explicitly says you can revert your system back ... that will probably mean a reinstall, though ... unless it takes an image of your old system and manages to save that to the partition it is currently cloning ... lol - downgrading is not that simple to get right, you know ... especially if you have installed software ...

              So, yes, you can, but they'l make it hard and unstable ...

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: Windows 10 Roll back

                Windows 10 Roll back has failed to work everytime I tried to use it- gave up, Luckily, I had a Paragon HDM 2014 Linux Boot-cd image I'd taken, far quicker than the MS Roll back and it worked, but this is the TP/Insider Preview, i.e. Activation problems.

          3. Roland6 Silver badge

            Re: Windows 10 Upgrade

            "Actually Win10 has a built-in tool to roll back to your old OS version if you decide you don't like it."

            And so did the Win8.1 Update to Win8, unfortunately it only worked if the update completed, if it buggered the system in the update process, the only rollback was a factory reset...

            Once again MS are playing fast and loose with user's machines, time and data...

            And talking of the Win8->8.1 Update remember this was originally optional and then MS decided to quietly release it via Windows Update and force it upon users, taking over their machines whilst it installed, heedless of anything a user may be wanting to do for the next few days and weeks... (days whilst the update installed etc. and then weeks to sort out the mess)

          4. Kiwi Silver badge
            Linux

            Re: Windows 10 Upgrade

            > Because you'll be trading your Windows 7 license for Windows 10. Windows 7 will no longer have a valid license and probably not activate.

            Aha! Here comes the FUD.

            Actually Win10 has a built-in tool to roll back to your old OS version if you decide you don't like it. But nice try, AC! You might frighten a few newbs with that one!

            Is that anything like the nice system they had with Fista a while back (and I believe maybe with 7) - where legitimate users with a legitimate OEM license sticker on the side of their machine found a bug hosed the activation, and M$'s* answer was "You license has ... Your only fix is to purchase a new license" (in many cases where the license had never been used elsewhere, never been tried on another machine or anything else - only a bug in Fista that caused the problem)

            *For those who bitch about people using "M$", "windoze", "fista" etc - it's often well-deserved, especially in cases where they were trying to steal more money from the poor deluded fools who used their crapware.

      2. Nigel 11

        Why would you have to blow your win7 install. You can image your win7 install, try win10, and, if you don't like it, restore your win7 image

        Always assuming that Windows 10 doesn't do anything irreversible to anything of yours that it may encounter out there on some network or cloud that you connect to. Just saying ....

    3. Stephen Leslie

      System Image

      Create a system image. If you do not like Windows 10, apply the image and - bam - it's like Windows 10 never even existed.

      1. Roland6 Silver badge

        Re: System Image

        I'd create a full disk image using a tool like clonezilla rather than a system image...

  6. JP19

    Why are Microsoft giving this away?

    And not just free but ramming it into your face via windows update.

    Their flagship product and cash cow they have been milking for years is suddenly free?

    I don't think so. Microsoft see it as a loss leader and they expect to be screwing more than an upgrade price from you somehow.

    What that somehow is I am not sure. First step to subscription Windows as a service? They expect to to buy more than an upgrades worth of crap from their app store? They think the pile of poo is going to make you rush out and buy a Win phone or fondleslab?

    1. Charles 9 Silver badge

      Re: Why are Microsoft giving this away?

      Ever thought they may be realizing that an App Store model may be the better way to go, a la iPhone and Android? Besides, it gives them an incentive to keep people from jumping to a Linux distro (since they now have free to counter free combined with the advantage of familiarity and better compatibility).

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        @Charles 9 - Re: Why are Microsoft giving this away?

        Stop spreading the FUD!

        Microsoft free is not like Linux free.

        1. Charles 9 Silver badge

          Re: @Charles 9 - Why are Microsoft giving this away?

          "Microsoft free is not like Linux free."

          Free is free is free? Am I able to get it at no cost to me? Yes, so it's free. End of.

          1. Nigel 11

            Re: @Charles 9 - Why are Microsoft giving this away?

            "Free" has at least two meanings. One is zero cost. The other translates into French as "libre" and means "at liberty" or "not confined" or "not restricted".

            Free software should be understood to refer to the second, not the first meaning.

            Also, "cost" does not exclusively refer to money. If I let the air out of your tyres and lend you a pump, that unfriendly act has not cost you nothing, although air is free.

            1. Charles 9 Silver badge

              Re: @Charles 9 - Why are Microsoft giving this away?

              ""Free" has at least two meanings. One is zero cost. The other translates into French as "libre" and means "at liberty" or "not confined" or "not restricted"."

              By my reckoning, the first definition (the one further up the dictionary) is "free". The second one is what I normally call "unrestricted". I've learned early on that it's very important to be very concise and precise in one's oration else one gets easily misinterpreted.

              1. Hans 1 Silver badge
                Boffin

                Re: @Charles 9 - Why are Microsoft giving this away?

                Well ... they use free in reference to FREEDOM.

                1. Charles 9 Silver badge

                  Re: @Charles 9 - Why are Microsoft giving this away?

                  "Well ... they use free in reference to FREEDOM."

                  But when you're in an environment where a word can get confused (in this case, one where a free lunch can easily be confused with free speech), then one or the other words should be changed in order to distinguish between them. Now, as it happens, there aren't too many easy contextual synonyms for free lunch (complimentary, cost-free perhaps) vs. free speech (unrestricted, unfettered), and the latter are in more common usage. So, rather than mince words, say what you mean, mean what you say, and say it so others know which way you mean it.

    2. Stephen Leslie

      Re: Why are Microsoft giving this away?

      They want to achieve some things:

      1. In a round about way they are saying sorry about Windows 8.x, without actually admitting it.

      2. They are hoping people will adopt Microsoft services e.g. Outlook.com

      3.They want businesses to leave Windows XP / 7 behind. If the eco-system is to settle on one Windows, they'd rather it be Windows 10 which is, under the hood, better and more secure, and which is, over the hood, better devised to operate in the PC Plus world (e.g. BYOD [Bring Your Own Device], services, smart phones etc.).

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        @Stephen Leslie - Re: Why are Microsoft giving this away?

        You're damn good at Marketing & PR.

        First, Microsoft is never sorry. Second, large and medium enterprises always settle for "good enough" (that's why they stayed with Windows for decades)

    3. Mark 85 Silver badge

      Re: Why are Microsoft giving this away?

      For some reason, Software (or OS) as a service doesn't appeal to home users much. Myself included. You end up paying more for the software that way than if you get a CD or a download. There's a lot of us that resist that "service". At work it's one thing, at home another.

      They go to S(or OS)aaS, and I suspect that a ton of users will dump MS real fast. Many won't either because they don't know better (lack of knowledge) or won't care as long as Facebook works.

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Why are Microsoft giving this away?

      The previous posters have a number of good points. Also, remember that MS is only giving away upgrades. The vast majority of home users weren't going to pay MS for an OS upgrade in the first place, so MS really isn't losing much by making the upgrade free. Instead they just gain a bunch of less obvious benefits from having users on their latest OS.

      Home users and small businesses will still have to buy licenses of Win10 when they get a new computer and large businesses will continue paying for site licenses. So, their main Windows revenue stream will still be intact.

      1. Roland6 Silver badge

        Re: Why are Microsoft giving this away?

        " Instead they just gain a bunch of less obvious benefits from having users on their latest OS."

        Suspect they would gaiin much more if they left their existing users happily on their current OS and let them upgrade in their own good time...

        I can see many simply clicking 'Okay' on the "Update" and then cursing because of the mess it creates..

    5. fung0

      Re: Why are Microsoft giving this away?

      This is THE key question everyone needs to be asking. Microsoft is not a charity. It's safe to assume it's doing this "free upgrade" for ITS OWN benefit, not ours. In fact, we know that Microsoft benefits in several massive ways:

      1. Windows 10 has advertising built into the Start Menu, the Lock Screen, and elsewhere. (Microsoft refers to these as "opportunities" for "spotlighting" apps you might like.) Cortana, in particular, is designed to return not just your desired search results, but also suggestions for things you might want to buy. (Microsoft showed a demo of this at Build.) Windows 10 is free for the same reason Facebook is free - because we've shifted from being the customers, to being the product.

      2. Windows 10 moves everyone closer to Microsoft's dream of running Universal Windows Apps. These are far more constrained than previous Win32 applications, they offer new opportunities for monetization, and most importantly (despite the "Universal" moniker), they don't run on Windows 7 or Windows XP, currently the most popular versions, which Microsoft would dearly love to eliminate so we'd have no further reason to resist future updates.

      3. Microsoft HOPES (vainly) that UWAs will be its foothold in mobile.

      4. UWAs are sold only through the Windows Store, giving Microsoft a tasty 20% of all third-party software sales going forward. (The 'dev switch' allowing 'sideloading' in the preview builds is not guaranteed to be in the final release, and Microsoft has recently reiterated several times that it will be retaining exclusive rights to sell UWAs, as it did in Windows 8.)

      On the plus side, the benefits of this "free upgrade" are... well, negligible. A Web browser is still a Web browser when it's programmed as a UWA. A few tweaks under the hood, an ugly new look, Ribbons in Explorer, a revived Start Menu that looks like it was designed by Barnum & Bailey, no DVD playback, no Media Center. More privacy intrusions, more attempts to get us all on to Microsoft accounts. And, as usual, new hardware drivers to find, new problems to shake down. Zero increase in productivity. Zero new capabilities. Zero fundamental architectural improvements (other than UWAs, which are a downgrade from Win32 in many ways). Even if you absolutely adore UWAs and the new flat look, a negative ROI.

      Sometimes, "FREE" is not nearly cheap enough. In fact, it's almost inevitably cheaper to pay with MONEY than in some other way you may not even know about.

  7. GregC

    Sticking with Windows 7 also means living with an operating system first released in October 2009, and missing out on performance and security improvements Microsoft has made since then.

    The bit I've bolded isn't entirely true - extended support runs through to 2020, and includes security updates to that point, so I could comfortably stick with 7 for another 5 years should I choose.

    The only Win10 feature that really interests me at the moment is the performance improvements that DX12 is supposed to bring with it, but on current games my Win7 based machine is just fine, so I can live without for the time being.

    1. fung0

      Vulkan (glNext) is going to offer the same performance improvements as DirectX 12. It's also likely to be the more tempting development target, given that it will be freely available on every OS, including Windows 7, Linux and the Mac, fully open-source, with no Microsoft licensing or lock-in.

      1. Charles 9 Silver badge

        "Vulkan (glNext) is going to offer the same performance improvements as DirectX 12. It's also likely to be the more tempting development target, given that it will be freely available on every OS, including Windows 7, Linux and the Mac, fully open-source, with no Microsoft licensing or lock-in."

        Perhaps, but it's not ready yet. Plus Microsoft still has the institutional momentum and is willing to directly back winners since it also sells consoles. I think if Valve and the like want to get their foot in the door, they're going to have to get MUCH more aggressive with Vulkan support in order to convince developers to code multiplat (which to this date they haven't had as much success as they would like). Even stuff you would think would be easy to port like stuff on UE4 don't get ported as much in reality.

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Guinea Pigs

    Windows 10 Home users will have updates from Windows Update automatically available.

    Interesting to note that that the home users will be used as Guinea pigs (or is that Beta Testers?) for future updates, while the Pro & Enterprise users have the luxury of being able to hold off and wait to see what happens.

    TANSTAAFL, I suppose.

    1. Mage Silver badge
      Trollface

      Re: Guinea Pigs

      South Americans and Italians eat Guinea Pigs.

      Windows 10: The new mechanism to increase Soylent Green production. A few months of use and people will be queuing ...

      1. fafa1971
        Stop

        Re: Guinea Pigs

        I don't know about South Americans, but I'm Italian and nobody over there eats Guinea pigs!!!

        1. Curtis

          Re: Guinea Pigs

          Do they eat pork?

          http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=guinea

  9. Christoph Silver badge

    When will Service Pack 1 be released?

    As always, let other people debug the release version and wait for the first Service Pack before upgrading.

    1. Phil Kingston Silver badge

      Re: When will Service Pack 1 be released?

      Ain't gonna be no service pack. It's constant evolution upgrading from here.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: When will Service Pack 1 be released?

        Yep, you won't even know what bloody version you're running, just 'Windows' from now on.

  10. Sebby

    DVD Playback

    That was the other thing. It worked in Win7, then they borked it in Win8 (you could restore it for a fee with WMC, which was overkill just for that one purpose) and now it's back to being made available at a future time as part of Win10.

    Still on the fence really. It sounds alright, but I'm not putting my name down yet.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: DVD Playback

      I don't think it is coming back as a part of Win 10 : "Watching DVDs requires separate playback software" means, I think, that you're going to have to buy a 3rd party product.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        @JustaKOS - Re: DVD Playback

        Or even better, a Microsoft monthly-licensed Windows 10 module! Kerr-ching!!

    2. Test Man

      Re: DVD Playback

      "That was the other thing. It worked in Win7, then they borked it in Win8 (you could restore it for a fee with WMC, which was overkill just for that one purpose) and now it's back to being made available at a future time as part of Win10."

      No, it wasn't borked in Windows 8, the MPEG-2 codec was purposely removed, as virtually all OEMs include DVD-playback software that already included its own DVD playback codec so not many people actually used it with Windows Media Player. You could add it back as part of Windows Media Center, which made sense.

      It's still not there in Windows 10, and it won't be coming back. However, if you had Windows Media Center, you'll still have DVD playback after WMC is removed.

      In short, as with all versions of Windows 8 and 8.1, you'll need third-party software if you desperately need to play it. This is fine, as DVD playback with Windows Media Player was always naff.

    3. Zash the Bench Geek

      Re: DVD Playback

      Just get VLC and watch your DVDs...

      My best guess, M$ doesnt want to pay for a decoder for each OS sold since many of these will not be installed on a system with a DVD player, or any other type of optical media for that matter. Folndleslabs and many lappies dont come with one.

      1. Sebby

        Re: DVD Playback

        Yeah, it's probably about time I actually ripped my DVDs. Project's long overdue, on account of it being laborious and slow. Then VLC will be a great help, as usual. :)

    4. fung0

      Re: DVD Playback

      I'm sure the plan is to obsolete DVDs entirely, and get everyone to stream their movies from the Microsoft Store.

  11. Mage Silver badge
    Devil

    Despicable

    Have MS become the Reality TV / Daytime TV of the Software industry.

    This is disgusting marketing.

  12. Mark 85 Silver badge
    Thumb Down

    Rule of Thumb Applies... And it may very well be a thumbs down.

    I'll kindly wait until SP1 is released thank you. And until after I find out how many of my programs (not apps) will need to be replaced and at what cost.

  13. Palpy

    Multi-boot?

    From what I understand, Windows apps run in a more secure environment than Win32 applications. If one were charitable, one might think that MS wants to move casual users toward a safer runtime.

    I'm not that charitable.

    Is there any info about whether a multiboot using Grub 2 would be borked or left intact if the Win 7 partition were upgraded to Win 10? I admit, I haven't looked too hard at it yet.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      @Palpy - Re: Multi-boot?

      Historically, Microsoft has been well known to bork any kind of multi-boot so watch your step!

    2. Kiwi Silver badge
      Linux

      Re: Multi-boot?

      Is there any info about whether a multiboot using Grub 2 would be borked or left intact if the Win 7 partition were upgraded to Win 10? I admit, I haven't looked too hard at it yet.

      Late to the party as usual...

      With both laptop (I am fortunate to own a multi-HD one) and desktop that have dual-boot, I have the windows on a seperate HDD to the other systems. It's then a simple process to disconnect the disk (or turn it off in BIOS in some machines) and safely do updates etc to windows, knowing it's impossible for it to harm decent systems.

      After the install etc is done, reconnect the main drive, if necessarily update Grub or other bootloaders, and we're done.

      Wth my poor main desktop, it has a half a dozen or so HDD's, one common storage and the rest with different OS's on - prefer not to have more than one OS on the same physical disk where I can avoid it - no real technical reason (aside from physical failure), just personal preferance.

  14. Chris G Silver badge

    MS out borgs Faceborg, maybe.

    This http://www.techworm.net/2014/10/microsofts-windows-10-permission-watch-every-move.html

    from last October. MS wants access to ALL your Data, including keylogging.

    Admittedly these downloads were for Devs and reviewers but it may be worth giving the T&Cs for the July downloads a reall ygood going over perhaps they are going to take all you privacy as a service...

    and sell it as a service to Someone else/NSA/ FBI/ISIS who knows? As a former horse owner; ALWAYS look a gift horse in the mouth!

    1. Stephen Leslie

      Re: MS out borgs Faceborg, maybe.

      No. They will not be keylogging Windows 10. They will stop that in the RTM (Released To Manufacturing) version. Now as for some services, I can't say; but you can refuse any service you don't like.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        @Stephen Leslie - Re: MS out borgs Faceborg, maybe.

        Did Microsoft promised that to you personally ?

        1. Stephen Leslie

          Re: @Stephen Leslie - MS out borgs Faceborg, maybe.

          That would be nice. They did say in the blurbs that there won't be key logging per se in the RTM.

          Could one still be key logged? If you use any Google website on your computer, you are being key logged in the browser. If you have Cortana turned on and employ the search box with Bing running, I don't know. But if you simply use File Explorer, and none of their "free" services, no, you will not be key logged, at least not officially. If you switch to dissident rebel "alternative" Linux, you are probably a terrorist and a highly skilled hacker, and the NSA / CIA / FBI / CISI / MI6/ ASIS kabal will watch your every move.

  15. Anonymous Coward/2.0
    Megaphone

    Thanks for spamming me Microsoft

    If you are like me and don't appreciate being spammed by Microsoft then don't install patch KB 3035583 (marked as "recommended"). If you did install it then uninstall this update to get rid of the MS adware for Windows 10. Unfortunately Windows Update will keep trying to reinstall this update as it is marked as "important".

    Microsoft - here's a clue - installing software that is going to nag me about Windows 10 updates isn't "important", it's bloody annoying.

    Microsoft - here's another clue - I will decide if and when I upgrade to Windows 10, not you. I certainly won't be installing anything until at least SP1 fixes all the broken shite in the original release. I also won't be installing an OS that breaks existing applications without bothering to tell me what it is going to break.

    Epic fail Microsoft.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Thanks for spamming me Microsoft

      Is it still possible to right-click on a Windows Update item in the list - and then tick "Hide update" to stop it being presented again? You can do that on W7 for "optional" updates.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Thanks for spamming me Microsoft

        "Is it still possible to right-click on a Windows Update item in the list - and then tick "Hide update" to stop it being presented again? You can do that on W7 for "optional" updates."

        It's possible if you haven't gotten it already, but the update was upgraded to Recommended a few weeks ago, so odds are you already have it.

        This is a notification, appears in the tray, and doesn't allow itself to be tucked into the "little-used" section as of now. I also can't find a way to hide it for now. But give it a little time. If it goes away or offers the ability after a few days, I'll just chalk it up as a minor nuisance. Besides, a jump from Windows 7 can save a few headaches down the road. As for the "early adopter" problems, I was on Windows 95 from Day One, and I warmed up to it pretty quickly.

        PS. If you REALLY wanna hide it, Customize the taskbar and look for "GWX.exe"

        1. Tromos

          Re: Thanks for spamming me Microsoft

          Notification Area Icons under Control Panel can be used to hide away the icon. I've tucked it away for now and will probably look to see how well received the upgrade is after it has been given a good going over, sometime around November should be adequate. Then I either activate it or delete it, for now it is a bit like a discount coupon for something I haven't yet decided to purchase, so I've done the digital equivalent of shoving it away in a drawer.

    2. Len Goddard

      Re: Thanks for spamming me Microsoft

      Well, I have that update but I don't see anything telling me how to upgrade. Possibly my version of Classic Shell conceals the "notification area", whatever that is.

      Not that it makes a lot of difference. I would never take a new MS OS before SP1 (or several months if it is progressive) and there is, as far as I can see, nothing I want/need in this beast.

      Cortina - no thanks. Don't use a mike except when gaming and I don't like machinery which talks back.

      Word/Excel/Powerpoint free - nope. I'm happy with LibreOffice

      Start Menu - I'm happier with the one I've got than the thing Win10 presents

      Universal Apps - my desktop & laptop are the only devices in the house running windows (and the desktop will be linux only soon).

      Stream games from XBox - don't have an XBox. When I play games I do it on the desktop PC.

      Virtual Desktops - wow, welcome to the 20th century. I've been using third party software to provide this missing functionality for some time and it does far more, so I will probably stay with it.

      Look & feel - Win 7 + Classic Windows Shell using classic mode and a bit of tweeking brings my system pretty close to Win2000/WinNT ... which is how I like it. I've been using that interface so long that I can do most things from muscle memory and I don't anticipate living long enough for the time savings from a new, more efficient, interface to outweigh the learning curve.

      1. fung0

        Re: Thanks for spamming me Microsoft

        You nailed it, Len. It's not that Windows 10 sucks - it just offers nothing I want or need.

        What virtual-desktop software are you using? I've tried several, had various problems with each.

    3. Alan W. Rateliff, II
      Paris Hilton

      Re: Thanks for spamming me Microsoft

      Microsoft changed it to an important update. As well, in Windows Updates it just has a generic "Install this update to resolve issues in Windows..." synopsis like the other hundreds of updates. If you want to know what it does, click on More information:

      "Update enables additional capabilities for Windows Update notifications in Windows 8.1 and Windows 7 SP1," "This update enables additional capabilities for Windows Update notifications when new updates are available to the user. It applies to a computer that is running Windows 8.1 or Windows 7 Service Pack 1 (SP1)."

      Nope. Nothing here tells me clearly what it is going to do. You can even read the "standard terminology used to describe Microsoft updates" at https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/824684 Nope, still nothing which defines "notifications" as "Windows 10 on-desktop spam."

      Epic fail, indeed.

    4. MYOFB

      Re: Thanks for spamming me Microsoft

      Thanks AC/2.0 for the headsup on the KB number.

      This shite was installed on my laptop on 20/5/15 which is just over a week AFTER "patch tuesday", which I always do, religiously.

      I didn't ask for this "update" and I didn't "approve" this update. This "update" was forcibly applied to my laptop and only reared it's ugly existence when I rebooted my laptop tonight, THE 1st OF JUNE!!

      I uninstalled this PoS update approx 15 minutes ago, rebooted & watched the "Please wait while Windows reconfigures, etc, etc ... Screen on shutdown and restart!!

      Low & behold, the fucker has re-appeared as an "Important" update!! I've "hidden" it for now but no doubt it will try to bite my ass again!!

      Following your theme of "clues" to Microsoft, I will add my own . . .

      1. I run a perfectly functional (for my purposes) Windows 7 laptop, which if my memory serves me well, you are obligated to keep updated with security patches until 2020, (right now I'm a little under half way through 2015!!).

      2. I kept XP running until a couple of months after your EOL date of 08/04/14 and did so of my own accord. Do you really think that I'll jump again before the W7 deadline by throwing KB3035583 at me??!!

      3. I foresee a LOT of problems in the future for you if you keep trying to foist your "free" Win 10 update on people like me (who live in the EU) without an easy option to remove your invasive "UPDATE". Browser Choice resurrection, anyone?

      4. I am a Sysadmin by trade, who utilises your products in my organisation to the Nth degree & note that I will not (for now) experience your forceable rape of my company's environment.

      5. Finally, on a personal note, you have managed in one fell swoop to get on par with Google in as much as the "do no evil" stakes. To wit, "If the product is free for use then YOU ARE THE PRODUCT!!

      Enjoy the seeds you have sown!!

      1. Belardi

        Re: Thanks for spamming me Microsoft

        Here is a little tip...

        Don't have your computer AUTO-INSTALL updates! I wait a week or so later, for those time when crap like this happens or a bugger patch is released, then pulled.

        Do a manual update and you can deselect such nonsense.

        I suspect MS will have another "update" to fool people. That update patch info even lies to you about its function. On the MS website, its a "update to the update function of Win7/8" -basically.

        1. Nigel 11

          Re: Thanks for spamming me Microsoft

          Don't have your computer AUTO-INSTALL updates! I wait a week or so later, for those time when crap like this happens or a bugger patch is released, then pulled.

          Unfortunately, if the update is for a vulnerability that is being exploited by bad guys out there, you are giving them an extra week to target your system. Also unfortunately, there may be circumstances when it is inadvisable for the vendor to tell the world precisely how important it is to install a patch (and more especially, *why*). Because if it is not already known to the bad guys, you don't want to give them any more of a heads-up than they'll get from the patch itself.

          A responsible vendor should never confuse security (-critical, -sensitive, -remote-exploitable, local-expoloitable, whatever) patches/fixes with adware, or even with new genuinely useful features that not everyone will want to install (on security grounds), let alone auto-install.

          1. fung0

            Re: Thanks for spamming me Microsoft

            Nigel, I agree absolutely that truly vital updates should never be confused with other junk, such as advertising.

            However, I disagree with your point about auto-updates. Most of these scare-mongering vulnerabilities are not that likely to bite you in a week. If you're behind a decent firewall, have scripts turned off in your browser, and avoid opening unknown email attachments, you're already 99.9% safe. That other 0.1% can be deferred.

            The downside of auto-updates is exactly what we're seeing in this thread. You've given an outside agent, with a very poor record of trustworthiness, blanket permission to do anything it likes to your system. If that's not the definition of a security vulnerability, I don't know what is.

    5. Skoorb

      Re: Thanks for spamming me Microsoft

      I'm afraid there are no more service packs - updates will be 'streamed' out as and when - apparently there will be no more versions either...

    6. Stephen Leslie

      Re: Thanks for spamming me Microsoft

      Big deal. Once in 25 years Microsoft Windows has a notice for you; and that for a no-charge, free upgrade to the latest. I can't get too upset. Actually, I think for this one time they should promote this way.

  16. andyheat

    Scare mongering as usual

    The headline of this article is scare mongering. The Get Windows 10 app is optional. If you want it, you click it. If not, you ignore it.

    I've not seen anywhere that it forces an upgrade on you, or annoys you by putting loads of banners and pop-ups everywhere (like Adware does.)

    Plus is it really adware when it's MS offering a FREE upgrade (not up-selling) on its own OS?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      @andyheat - Re: Scare mongering as usual

      You forgot to put wink-wink nudge-nudge quotes around free upgrade.

  17. psychonaut

    oh dear god

    im going to have to contact all my customers . anyone know of a good mass mailing program that isnt very expensive?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: oh dear god

      Mass mailer for Thunderbird, import a CSV. But beware of your daily SMTP limits with your provider.

  18. Infernoz Bronze badge
    Meh

    Security and Stability iffyness

    I won't touch it until it has been verified as stable, doesn't break critical hardware support and is not a covert anti-security backdoor like Windows 8+ apparently is!

    1. dogged

      Re: Security and Stability iffyness

      > and is not a covert anti-security backdoor like Windows 8+ apparently is!

      I bet you Googled that.

      1. hplasm Silver badge
        Devil

        Re: Security and Stability iffyness

        > and is not a covert anti-security backdoor like Windows 8+ apparently is!

        I bet you Googled that.

        Bing had nothing...

    2. Stephen Leslie

      Re: Security and Stability iffyness

      In the beta versions of Windows 10 - the "Preview" versions - Microsoft made it clear that for the development period, they will look at feedback. They were quite open about it, and it was done to get the feedback needed to make Windows better. That said: in the official version, the one released to the public come July 29 - i.e. the 'Gold' or 'RTM' version - that will be removed.

  19. Johndoe888
    Meh

    After the one year upgrade window closes

    What happens if my hd dies and I install 7 on a new one, will I get another free upgrade because I initially upgraded in the qualifying time period ?

    The advice handed out for years has always been to do a clean install and not use the upgrade option, in this case it's do the upgrade on a clean install, the phone is going to start ringing due do folks expecting the 10 upgrade to fix their long in the tooth install that has been messed up by something :(

    I will be upgrading from a clean install on 2 drives and putting them both in a safe place until sp1comes out :)

    What happened to 9 ?

    1. tekHedd

      Re: After the one year upgrade window closes

      Good question. My Win 7 is an upgrade (ultimate) edition. XP won't install with the hard disks in modern BIOS settings, needed for the RAID (for Intel's disk acceleration), unless I put the drivers on a floppy disk and install a floppy drive, which is NOT happening, so I have to add an extra drive, switch the BIOS mode, install XP with a bunch of legacy BIOS configuration, making sure that when I switch the disk access mode the BIOS will still recognize the disk with XP so the Win 7 upgrade will install. And then doing a full download-based upgrade install of Win 10 on top of that?

      Maybe I'll just wait. My games run fine.

  20. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Can i ask, how much

    were you paid to include this nugget of turdish wisdom?:

    "Sticking with Windows 7 also means living with an operating system first released in October 2009, and missing out on performance and security improvements Microsoft has made since then."

    Because UEFI was a "performance and security improvement" wasn't it.

    And of course, Win8 was a " performance improvement". Over DOS, possibly.

    1. dogged

      Re: Can i ask, how much

      UEFI is not a Microsoft technology.

      Why am I reading this bullshit?

      (Actually, Win8 is a considerable performance improvement and also reduces required resources but I doubt your worldview can permit that).

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        @dogged - Re: Can i ask, how much

        He was close to saying SecureBoot and that was enough to upset your stomach.

        1. dogged

          Re: @dogged - Can i ask, how much

          > He was close to saying SecureBoot and that was enough to upset your stomach

          Which is also not a Microsoft technology.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Can i ask, how much

        "Why am I reading this bullshit?"

        because you're a fucking commetard. Christ, how hard is it!!

        And it's not just MY worldview. Its a significant proportion of tech savvy users.

        Why am i responding to this bullshit?

        Oh, "In 2011, Microsoft announced that computers certified to run its Windows 8 operating system had to ship with secure boot enabled using a Microsoft private key. Following the announcement, the company was accused by critics and free software/open source advocates (including the Free Software Foundation) of trying to use the secure boot functionality of UEFI to hinder or outright prevent the installation of alternative operating systems such as Linux. Microsoft denied that the secure boot requirement was intended to serve as a form of lock-in, and clarified its requirements by stating that Intel-based systems certified for Windows 8 must allow secure boot to enter custom mode or be disabled, but not on systems using the ARM architecture"

        So they tried to limit it....

    2. illiad

      Re: Can i ask, how much

      Hey the *new* sportscar may be superfast, eco-fantastic, etc, etc,,, BUT if it looks like a turd, is shaped like a turd, not many will like it!!!!

      And if, like win 8, the gear changer is 'hidden' behind a flap behind the steering wheel, just because they have great confidence that the autogear change always works...

      do you see ????

      1. dogged

        Re: Can i ask, how much

        Multiple exclamation marks or question marks denote "imbecile" so I ignored your question. If it was one.

  21. psychonaut

    an in place upgrade...its as if

    millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror, and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened.

    except with windows obviously. a fucking in place upgrade. with an untested os on release day.

    i really need a mass mailing program to contact all of my customers. they will just click it and then....i wont be able to do anything other than reimage win 7 machines for the next 6 months. i'll go crazy.

    help!

  22. Kev99 Bronze badge

    The only reason I upgraded from Win XP was because Microsoft forced the issue. I never had a lick of problems with it, but then I don't don't click on every flipping URL that comes along either. I'll wait and see on the jump from Win7.

  23. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    A question

    Can this download be turned into a DVD to enable a clean install? If not, why not?

    1. mike panero

      Re: A question

      Or better yet a USB image...

      I am about to upgrade my win 7 box (I mean buy new bits and make a new one)

      Can I d/l the upgrade and use it on a new m/c? I suspect not

      Is it worth messing with an old m/c Im going to upgrade? No of course not

      If I put a pirate version on the new box can I upgrade for free? Ha nice thanks M$

      Will it be faster? I have every reason to think yes it will be as long as you go for a 64 bit option

    2. Boothy

      Re: A question

      I'm curious about this as well. I've got a full Win 7, rather than an OEM version, which I periodically use do a fresh install with. (Either due to hardware upgrades, such as a new Mother Board and CPU, or just as a fresh clean start).

      So at some point in the future, would I be able to do that with the free Win 10 upgrade?

      i.e. If I build a new PC, would I be able to do a fresh Win 10 install on that machine (preferably without having to install Win 7 plus SP1 first), and effectively move my licence from my old PC, to my new one, in the same way I can currently do now with my Win 7 DVD disk

      1. Boothy

        Re: A question

        An addition.

        Assuming that MS won't just allow us to download an ISO/USB image etc.

        Windows 10 now has a factory reset option. Which is suppose to reset the system back to a fresh install state.

        Therefore could you create a recover disk from within your current Win 10 installation (i.e. your Win 7/8.1 updated OS), then use that to install on a new PC, and then do a factory reset?

        Might have to have a play with my Win 10 VM tonight!

  24. Gray
    Flame

    Missing Out?

    ...and missing out on performance and security improvements Microsoft has made since then.

    And just what "improvements" would that be, then? A whole new barge-load of MS crap and control? A total slowdown of my perfectly-functioning older laptop? No thanks, MS ... the ride ended with Win7.

  25. Fatman Silver badge
    Linux

    RE: `new features for desktop users` : Really!!!!

    That said, the upgrade is potentially more compelling for Windows 7 users than Windows 8 was, thanks to new features for desktop users (including multiple desktops)

    Something Linux has had for years!!!!!

    Give me a break!!!!

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: RE: `new features for desktop users` : Really!!!!

      People don`t use Desktop Linux. It is irrelevant.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        @AC - Re: RE: `new features for desktop users` : Really!!!!

        That's what Microsoft wants you to believe. Sleep tight!

      2. Nigel 11

        Re: RE: `new features for desktop users` : Really!!!!

        People don`t use Desktop Linux. It is irrelevant

        Says who? With what definition of "people"?

        You can argue about the size of the minority that do use Linux desktop. Maybe (and I agree, maybe not) there will come a day when the size of that minority starts growing exponentially until it is a majority. For something that has zero replication cost (ie free software) such exponential growth could come "out of nowhere" and be very fast. The past is not a useful guide to the future in software.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: RE: `new features for desktop users` : Really!!!!

      So has Windows, they just finally got around to including it in the base image instead of making you download a powertool.

  26. HighTech4US

    For those who have HTPC's that USE Windows Media Center do the following to remove the icon so that you don't accidently get Windows 10 installed in the middle of the night along with the update removing Windows Media Center thus bricking your setup.

    http://superuser.com/questions/922068/how-to-disable-the-get-windows-10-icon-shown-in-the-notification-area-tray

    Terminate GWX.exe from Task Manager

    Uninstall KB3035583

    In Windows Update recheck for updates

    You should see KB3035583, uncheck it and then right-click it and select hide update

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      "You should see KB3035583, [...]"

      Select "Show Updates" - sort by date. Then scroll down to the section for the OS updates. Mine was dated 21/5/2015.

  27. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Nobody asked here two real interesting questions (at least for me)

    If and when :

    1. Is Microsoft finally going to order (I know, I know, not directly) OEMs to lock down PCs with SecureBoot ?

    2. Is Microsoft going to prevent consumers installing applications from outside the MS Store (sideloading) ?

    By answering these two questions correctly, Microsoft might consider me a potential client.

    1. hplasm Silver badge
      Devil

      Re: Nobody asked here two real interesting questions (at least for me)

      "By answering these two questions correctly, Microsoft might consider me a potential client."

      By asking these two questions, Microsoft might consider you a potential troublemaker...

  28. Graham Triggs

    Shock as Windows 10 upgrade deletes things that would be removed in a Windows 8 upgrade anyway.

    Windows 8 definitely had some serious mis-steps (e.g. hiding the power button), which were all largely ironed out in 8.1. And having used 8.1 for a while, it's definitely better than 7 - it can just take a bit of getting used to.

    The previews of Windows 10 look like a decent improvement, although ironically, the start menu is going to take some getting used to. After you've got over the initial shock, and learnt how to customize it, the start screen actually works reasonably well. From what I've seen of the new start menu, it's a fairly uncomfortable mix of menu and start screen, although it might get better with use.

  29. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Hmmmmm

    Best

    Left

    Alone

    [slinks off]

  30. willi0000000

    i would like to thank the many commenters for answering all my questions about W10.

    [ i am now serenely panicking ]

  31. Mystic Megabyte Silver badge
    Pirate

    Microsoft’s covert efforts .....

    Microsoft is on my list of unethical companies and won't be getting installed here. My advice would be to start looking for alternatives before you get locked in for ever.

    See here for their usual tricks:

    http://techrights.org/2015/05/29/microsoft-vs-india/

  32. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    No gadgets?

    I realise I'm probably one of about 12 people in the world who uses desktop gadgets in Windows, but if Win 10 doesn't support these it's going to make me think twice about upgrading any time soon. My system hardware monitoring gadget is too useful.

    1. Roger B

      Re: No gadgets?

      I thought Gadgets had been pulled from Windows 7 as they were a security risk?

      1. Belardi

        Re: No gadgets?

        1 - an update removes them...

        2 - There are useful gadgets out there... ANY program can be a security risk.

        3 - The removal of gadgets was a marketing ploy. Giving Win7 users the finger.

        Think of live-tiles as replacements.

        The legit gadgets get good reviews, no complaints about infections, etc.

    2. Alan Sharkey

      Re: No gadgets?

      Look at 8gadget http://8gadgetpack.net/ - I use it all the time with Windows 8.1 and it also works with Windows 10

  33. Munkstar

    So my 386 .......

  34. SteveK

    Scams and malware

    So, how long before scam artists and thieves (no, I'm not talking about Microsoft here) start pushing out popups that look like this, or on 29th July pretend to be a 'Windows 10 is ready to install' thingy. Given the hype about it, how many people will then believe such a popup to be genuine?

  35. MJI Silver badge

    The word Remove is too common

    Kept seeing the word remove.

    It should not be there.

    Do not remove my stuff.

  36. Alan Sharkey

    WMC removal?

    I run Windows Media PLAYER - not WM CENTER. In Player, I have got all my CDs ripped and organised.

    What happens to all of that? It's very convenient using WMP. Will I lose that?

    Alan

    1. Charles 9 Silver badge

      Re: WMC removal?

      Your CDs are fine. It's DVD playback that's broken due to the MPEG-2 license issue. It's like how Wiis don't play DVDs nor did the orignal Xbox without a dongle (the dongle had the license price attached). They're physically capable but legally incapable because they don't have their licenses paid for. And since many people don't use their PCs as DVD players (why wear then out when you can use dedicated players hooked up to the TV is the noted justification--many times PC DVD drives are used for ripping, not playing), it means like a decent amount of bucks a copy Microsoft has to pay for something that doesn't get used.

      1. Belardi

        Re: WMC removal?

        But the Japanese version of the Wii did play DVDs just fine.

        It would have been great for my kids to have the Wii play DVDs, rather than attach ANOTHER device to their TV. :(

        Meanwhile... PS3 plays everything.. so its all good.

        1. Charles 9 Silver badge

          Re: WMC removal?

          "It would have been great for my kids to have the Wii play DVDs, rather than attach ANOTHER device to their TV. :("

          But as the PS2 showed, using a gaming console to play movies tends to wear the drive out faster, and once it breaks, you can't play games OR movies.

          PS. News to me on the Japanese Wiis. I'm pretty sure this was the exception, though, as Nintendo made the lack of movie playback very clear otherwise.

    2. Boothy

      Re: WMC removal?

      Windows Media Player is still there, and should actually be a little better.

      For example, it will include FLAC and MKV support out of the box now, so no (or at least reduced) need for 3rd party codecs.

      I'm hoping it will rip to FLAC, and not just play!

      I suspect MS didn't really want to add these, as they favour their own WMA and WMV (crap) formats, but there is a lot of contents out there that is in MKV format, and a lot of codec packs of dubious credibility ("nice bit of malware on the side sir?").

      My guess is MS are just trying to reduce support calls, "Why won't these files play?", "Malware? The only thing I installed recently was the 'Super Duper Best Ever codec pack', which I found on Bing." etc.

  37. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I'm still trying to migrate all my less frequently used applications and peripherals etc from XP to W7. No way do I want to also be trying to migrate them to W10. Ask me again in 2020.

  38. Belardi

    When you go to the MS website to see what the Update KB-3035583 is, it says NOTHING about Windows 10. Not a single word.

    Just that it's an important updater for Windows 7.1 / 8.1 computers (pretty much).

    That kind of bullshit is why I don't like MS and I'll continue my migration to Linux while I stay with Windows7.

    Come'on MS. How hard *IS* it to say: 3035583 = "Window 10 upgrade tool, to verify and UPGRADE your 7.1 or 8.1 system to Windows 10 for free, via background downloading. Requires 10GB of free disc space".

    Nope... it just lies to you. Its like your wife, saying "I'm not having sex with another man" as she goes back to giving some other guy oral sex in front of you.

    1. Dan 55 Silver badge

      If you don't like KB3035583 then you're not going to like KB2952664 which is another one of those pre-Windows 10 updates. It makes Windows 7 phone home, even if you've opted out of phoning home in Control Panel > Action Center.

      Uninstall and then hide both updates in Windows Update.

      1. Roland6 Silver badge

        Re: If you don't like KB3035583...

        Seems there is a whole series of 'Important' updates:

        http://www.infoworld.com/article/2911609/operating-systems/kb-2952664-compatibility-update-for-win7-triggers-unexpected-daily-telemetry-run-may-be-snooping.html

        http://www.infoworld.com/article/2930713/microsoft-windows/microsoft-re-re-releases-kb-2952664-kb-2976978-and-kb-2977759.html

        Which we can expect will be added to.

        It would seem that MS wishes to punish it's customers who followed their advice and enabled the automatic install of Critical/Important Windows Updates.

        The problem is whilst I'm happy for MS to install a new app in the control panel or on the program menu (oop's, MS did a way with that with Win8). I see no reason for them to both install a permanently running process AND change the Windows Update application so that it now displays a Windows 10 advert where normally it displays the number of updates available for a system.

  39. MJI Silver badge

    Universal applications

    So they want to run the same program on PCs Consoles Tablets and Phones?

    Erm don't think so. Can't see how it would be possible for one program to work on multiple OSes.

    PC Could be Windows, Linux, or Apple BSD

    Phone, Google Linux, Apple BSD, what about Symbian?

    Consoles, Lets look, ooh a mix of Orbis OS, CellOS, VitaOS, well they are all BSD forks.

    Sorry not doable.

    1. SteveK

      Re: Universal applications

      Erm don't think so. Can't see how it would be possible for one program to work on multiple OSes.

      Really?

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Write_once,_run_anywhere

      OK, Java wasn't great but at least as a bytecode it should run the same binary code on any platform that has a suitable runtime.

      1. Charles 9 Silver badge

        Re: Universal applications

        Trouble was "suitable" was a moving target. And given the broad spectrum of hardware it was meant to run in, trying to set a hard-and-fast specification for "suitable" was a pipe dream.

      2. MJI Silver badge

        Re: Universal applications

        You do know I was having a dig at MS, that people who have a PC are more likely due to sales to have Android, also look at recent games console sales.

        1. SteveK

          Re: Universal applications

          You do know I was having a dig at MS, that people who have a PC are more likely due to sales to have Android, also look at recent games console sales.

          Nope, apparently completely missed that. Clearly need more caffeine in the morning.

    2. Loyal Commenter Silver badge

      Re: Universal applications

      So they want to run the same program on PCs Consoles Tablets and Phones?

      Erm don't think so. Can't see how it would be possible for one program to work on multiple OSes.

      I would have thought that what they mean is, "on Windows PCs, on XBox consoles, Windows Tablets, and Windows Phones", not on your Linux box, PS3, Android tablet, or iPhone.

  40. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Automatic??

    You mean there are people out there who run Windows with automatic update enabled???

  41. FuzzyTheBear

    Still confused about other matters .

    MS says free upgrade for a year .. what does it mean .. you can upgrade for free within the first year and get to keep it for free after that period or it's an upgrade they give you use for a year then have to fork out ?

    Really this has me confused no end and i can't find a clear answer ..

    Ric

    1. Boothy

      Re: Still confused about other matters .

      It's not a "free upgrade for a year", it's "the upgrade is free for a year".

      If you miss the year dead line, and then decide you want to upgrade, you have to purchase a retail copy instead.

      Free or paid for, it's still the same version of Win 10. The only difference being you'd have a disk with the retail version, so would presumably be easier to do fresh installs.

      1. Charles 9 Silver badge

        Re: Still confused about other matters .

        "Free or paid for, it's still the same version of Win 10. The only difference being you'd have a disk with the retail version, so would presumably be easier to do fresh installs."

        And if what I've read is correct, even that can be dealt with if you have a burner and a blank disc (like with Win8.1, an ISO is supposed to be obtainable).

  42. Truth4u

    some things to consider before upgrading

    1. It really is your duty to upgrade, because if you don't, Microsoft will stop making money and their investors will lose their godlike power over you. Think how chaotic the system would become if your vote mattered for real. We can't let this happen.

    2. If you don't upgrade on day one, then you're really just being disrespectful to Microsoft. Microsoft are a legal person with rights and I would argue feelings too. If you hurt their feelings then you are a Bad Person. Can you really look at yourself in the mirror each morning knowing you neglected your duty to upgrade?

    3. If you don't upgrade then you are probably in breach of the computer misuse act or the patriot act or some such, so just do it now or risk life in prison.

  43. Avatar of They Silver badge

    YIKES!!!

    "Windows 10 previews get more polished with each build, but in terms of stability it is well behind where Windows 8 was in its final stages."

  44. Timmy B Silver badge

    I actually think it's a shame to lose the start screen - for some people

    I have an elderly friend - in her late 80s. She recently purchased a new PC with 8.1 on it and for the first time actually finds windows easy to use. 10 mins customising the start screen and everything she wants is there with big pictures. The only advice I really needed to give beyond that is "If you get stuck press the windows button" and she's back to the start. For people who aren't so tech savvy 8.1 is great.

  45. BD 1
    IT Angle

    Why upgrade?

    I have a Win 8.1 laptop fully configured to hide the Win 8.1 interface, including Classic Shell. I run a lot of very specialist geotechnical programs I have two questions

    1. If I upgrade will I have to re-install all my programs?

    2. Will I get any benefit from upgrading, other than a possible slight increase in security, but bearing in mind that I have avoided virus infection since my first 286 running DOS 4.1?

    I am completely OS agnostic. My computer is a tool for me do my work. I just want my computer to run my specialist programs and for items to be where I expect them.

    Thanks

    1. Boothy

      Re: Why upgrade?

      Quote: "1. If I upgrade will I have to re-install all my programs?"

      Use the upgrade check tool from the Win 10 'ADWARE', it will scan your system, and tell you if there are any issues.

      As an example, I ran it on my Win 7 64bit system, which I build about 3 years ago, (so has lots of stuff installed), I have everything from games (Steam, Origin etc.) to Office, to several IDEs (Android, Eclipse etc). Lots of productivity tools (UltraEdit, NotePad++, Cygwin64 etc).

      The only single item it flagged up was VMware Workstation, which it stated would need re-installing. I'm guessing due to the custom Network services it uses.

      I'm not saying I trust the output of this test tool 100%, so I'll be waiting a while before doing any updating (give it a couple of months at least, and I'll be trying it on an older Laptop first), plus of course a full system backup before hand.

      1. Zog_but_not_the_first Silver badge
        WTF?

        Re: Why upgrade?

        Use the upgrade check tool from the Win 10 'ADWARE', it will scan your system, and tell you if there are any issues

        Apparently my system has been scanned and no problems have been identified. The only slight problem is that I didn't ask MS to scan my system.

        Resistance is futile?

      2. Roland6 Silver badge

        Re: Why upgrade?

        "Use the upgrade check tool from the Win 10 'ADWARE', it will scan your system, and tell you if there are any issues."

        Based on the experience with Win8->8.1 update tools they deemed a PC could be upgraded even though the vendor's site explicitly said no for that model, I wouldn't trust the MS tool.

        1. BD 1

          Re: Why upgrade?

          OK, the Win 10 Wizard suggests that I won't have to reinstall any programs but................

          2. Will I get any benefit from upgrading, other than a possible slight increase in security, but bearing in mind that I have avoided virus infection since my first 286 running DOS 4.1?

          Thanks

        2. Dan Paul

          Re: Why upgrade?

          You would rather believe the PC vendor who only makes money if someone buys a new computer????

          If a PC already runs Win8, it will run 8.1 and thus Win 10. If it runs Win 7 then all the others will run as a Win 7 machine needed more power. The only issue would be the PC OEM's bloatware which may not run.

          The ONLY issue I see is with the total amount of ram in the PC. MS have ALWAYS lied about the minimum amount of ram needed to "run" Windows.

  46. Ramon Zarat

    Fuck M$ adware!

    Just because of that, I will NOT upgrade to win 10. This "'new app" bullshit is pure artificial market segmentation that offers NO substantial value to end users. This is change for the sake of change to make you spend money. Fuck that.

  47. PJF
    Windows

    AlternitiveOS

    O.K. all you penguin users, suggest me a OS w/desktop to keep me sane..

    The "better" half is used/likes '98/xp and tolerates 7, and I HATE THAT DAMN DOG HOSE - it leaks like a sieve!

    Been using D.O.S. since 3.0 on an ATARI 800, and M.Sh!t since 2.0 (still have 5.25" install floppies)..

    3.1, 3.11.,'95, '98 (3.5 hd), and cd's of XP and 7. Did do a dabble of OS.2/warp, and liked it..

    Sooo, whatcha got fur me (OK us)

    1. Dan 55 Silver badge

      Re: AlternitiveOS

      Linux Mint.

      There are two flavours, MATE and Cinnamon. MATE is the more classic UI based on GNOME 2. Cinnamon is based on GNOME 3 and has newer more shiny features but is still a classic-style desktop.

      There are also BSD versions of Mint - GhostBSD, FreeBSD, and PC-BSD.

    2. Dave Lawton

      Re: AlternitiveOS

      There is also a version of Mint that uses KDE as a desktop.

      This might be more familiar since this is closer (on the surface) to the W95 et al style desktop.

      There are also quite a few other distributions that have KDE as default desktop.

  48. Whiznot

    Oh, lucky day. Microsoft is offering to take away my DVR for free. What's the catch?

  49. tlwmd

    How will Win 8.1 tablets upgrade if insufficient spare disc space?

    OK, so I have a small Win8.1 tablet which doesn't have 16GB spare on the c: drive (it has less than 23GB in total!), so what will be the upgrade route here? I'm relying on Win10 to lessen the space used, once upgraded, as I won't need a separate Office installation. Hopefully we'll be able to download an ISDO and place it on the separate removable d: card?

  50. Mark Allen

    Why remove Minesweeper?

    What I really don't understand about Win 8.1 and this Win 10 upgrade - why have MS removed the classic games like Minesweeper, Solitaire, etc?

    Already I have had to port these over from Win 7 to Win 8.1 for a number of my clients. The old games work fine after the right dlls are located and a bit of hex editing of the game binaries to remove a Windows Version Check.

    These classics have been wasting office time for decades. Why kill them off now?

  51. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    If it ain't broke..

    I'll be sticking with win 7 pro for now and waiting on 'Windows 11' (or whatever naming convention it will be). Some of my older programs won't run on win 10, which I need. Support doesn't run out until 2020 for win 7 pro so, what's the rush? If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

  52. jelabarre59 Silver badge

    I suspect on my brother's MSWin7 machine I might do a clean install (on a different HDD) and make a system image of a base installation without any apps, then install the MSWin10 upgrade while it's still free and then make another system image of that. That way he's got the free upgrade already, but won't actually have to run it. Or perhaps clone the regular install to a new disk and build the upgrade on top of that. Then just switch back to the MSWin7 disk and continue on with what's already working.

    As for his 8.1 machine at the cabin, it might be worthwhile just taking the upgrade on that (yeah, image MSWin8.1 first anyway). But that would mean driving up to the Catskills one or two times and spending the day doing the upgrade. Really, I just need him to switch over to LinuxMint instead.

    Probably do the same for the in-laws 8.1 system; let the imaging run one day and then the upgrade the next (at least can go swimming while I'm waiting for the horribly show process to run).

    Would be nice if I would be able to download the upgrade package ahead of time on my brother's Fios connection, but MS are incapable of providing such useful options.

  53. atlatl265

    A Word to the Wary

    If you want to get rid of the pesky Win 10 upgrade icon on the task bar, then uninstall KB3035583.

    After doing so, the Win 10 icon will be gone from the task bar but, after running Windows Updates, the following updates will show up; Two (2) Important updates; KB2952664, which is the Compatibility check for Win 10 and KB3035583, which creates the task bar icon and is listed as updating the capabilities to upgrade to Win 10. Also, Two (2) Optional updates; KB3050265, which is called a Windows Update Client and KB3068708, which is for the CEIP , that is the Customer Experience Improvement Program. Note: be sure to Hide these updates afterward. IMHO, I abhor the use of the Important heading of the first two updates and the Optional updates are just Marketing gobble-de-gook. In fact, the title of MS Ad-Ware for this thread hit the nail on the head. In addition to losing

    apps/applications/programs in the process of upgrading to Win 10, what would happen if the PC being upgraded did Not have a touch screen monitor ie., a laptop ? Hope this helps. atlatl

    1. Roland6 Silver badge

      Re: A Word to the Wary

      Whilst it may be a little fiddly, it does seem that MS are not (currently) classifying these Adware 'updates' as "critical" and "security relevant" and hence a simple way to avoid/filter them out, is to update via WSUS Offline Update.

  54. SQL God

    This is scumware otherwise known as the adware that Microsoft puts on your machine to nag you to buy (sorry upgrade to a free trial of) Windows 10

    You can't kill it.

    > You can delete the patch they used to install it. (KB 3035583) But MS will just reinstall it.

    > You can delete the run file, GWX.exe, but MS quickly replaces it.

    (You have to take ownership of the file because MS secures it strongly)

    > You can replace it with a do nothing run file.

    But MS will detect it and put their adware back in.

    The company that owns the desktop is now a major scumware provider. How sad..

  55. SQL God

    Microsoft is a Malware Provider

    This is scumware otherwise known as the adware that Microsoft puts on your machine to nag you to buy (sorry upgrade to a free trial of) Windows 10

    You can't kill it.

    > You can delete the patch they used to install it. (KB 3035583) But MS will just reinstall it.

    > You can delete the run file, GWX.exe, but MS quickly replaces it.

    (You have to take ownership of the file because MS secures it strongly)

    > You can replace it with a do nothing run file.

    But MS will detect it and put their adware back in.

    The company that owns the desktop is now a major scumware provider. How sad..

  56. Daz555

    All my stuff runs on Windows 10 so I was happy to upgrade - in I fact did an upgrade, lived with it for a while, and then a clean install just for comparison - to be honest the upgrade was so good I did not need to bother with the clean install.

    I have one small bug which likely sits in the hands of either Microsoft, AMD, or Mozilla in that about 25% of the time Firefox does not display correctly if was already open when my PC resumes from sleep. Not a biggie and I'll live with it for now but it will be interesting to see which fixes it first - a new display driver, a new version of FF, or something from MS. As for issues though - that's the total sum of my Windows 10 complaints to date....oh and the bland logo during boot. Can we have the classic Windows icon back please?

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