back to article Microsoft: Even cheapo Lumias to get slimmed down Windows 10

The “next chapter” in Windows is coming to Microsoft's cheapo, mass-market Lumia phones. Microsoft is working to get Windows 10 working on devices with just 512MB RAM, including the Lumia 520. The news was tweeted by Microsoft operating systems group vice president Joe Belfiore on Sunday. Just one catch: small memory means …

  1. GrumpyMiddleAgedGuy

    Shame about market share - nice phones, just not "desirable"

    1. Bob Vistakin
      Facepalm

      Does this mean one day they actually might make more money on their own mobile efforts than they extort from the work of others?

      1. P. Lee Silver badge

        >Does this mean one day they actually might make more money on their own mobile efforts than they extort from the work of others?

        No. And they really don't need to. This is about protecting the desktop from non-windows 'slab creep. Phones are just part of the "windows everywhere" strategy that doesn't work but soothes MS' pride.

        Assuming MS is going with surface 3 pro-type tablets, losing the phone market really doesn't matter. Those devices will never run the windows apps people expect windows to run. Its just a vanity project.

        1. Doug 3

          or it is about developers, developers, developers and getting them to code to Microsoft's API. Getting those API's in their hands and on their dev workstations means they can also code to the desktop. It's about protecting and saving desktop Windows.

        2. proud2bgrumpy

          Exactly...

          @ P.Lee - Yes indeed - MS are playing a long game in a declining (for them) market. A few years ago - your only choice was a laptop or a desktop - probably running Windows, most people don't need that for browsing eBay / watching porn / trolling on Bacefook /watching cat vids on YouTube / sending emails - so Phones began to eat into that market, but most still bought a laptop. With tablets, your typical user gets the familiarity of their phone GUI and a larger screen to eBay / watch porn / Bacefook / YouTube / email- no need for a laptop. In the near future, as they enter into the workplace the automatic choice of buying into Windows isn't so obvious anymore (they grew up with Linux/Android or iOS) so Linux starts to get a foothold into the corporate desktop as it has into what was once only the MS Windows Server or Enterprise Unix space. MS has to make some serious changes in its business model if it is to stay relevent over the next 10 - 15 years.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        "extort from the work of others?"

        If Microsoft's patents are being licenced, it means others are in fact earning from Microsoft's work. Nokia also take a cut of most Android revenues for the same reason - their innovations are being used by others.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Ssssh! Microsoft wants to keep these patents top secret so they never actually get contested in court. Their tried 'n' tested FUD tactic is the one surefire way you can tell they 'aint changing their spots any time soon.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            "Ssssh! Microsoft wants to keep these patents top secret so they never actually get contested in court"

            Microsoft's patents have been contested in court numerous times. Mostly Microsoft has won. Hence why companies worth billions pay up rather than fight. They know at least some of the patents will stick.

            The primary reason that Microsoft tries not to reveal which patents it is leveraging is simple business positioning - it doesn't want potential licensing fee targets to be able to work around or avoid using it's patented technology. It would rather be able to charge them a fee. Quite common sense really if you are in business to make money...

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      "just not "desirable""

      Unless you happen to want the best camera sensor, lens, maps / nav, microphones / recording and screen contrast / touch panels and the most performant and secure OS available on any smartphone handset.

      1. Teiwaz Silver badge

        Wait,,,,What?

        "Secure OS available on any smartphone handset"?

        Nope, does not compute.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Wait,,,,What?

          "Nope, does not compute."

          It sure does. Perhaps you have a lack of data?

          Windows Phone 8 - Zero known vulnerabilities. Zero known malware.

          Blackberry 10 - over 50 known vulnerabilities.

          IOS - loads of known vulnerabilities. Some malware.

          Android - security of a collander to hold water. Millions infected with malware.

          Nothing else holds over say 1% Smartphone market share to mention.

          1. Teiwaz Silver badge

            Re: Wait,,,,What?

            I could say..

            Zero known vulnerabilities.

            - If nobody uses it, it's not vulnerable.

            Malware,

            - it's probably lack of interest. Windows Phone is not really worth anybodies while as regards malware.

            But, I'm not....

            You've only posted very vague summaries, 3rd hand sources at best, these could be just your assumption of the state of the smartphone security and not reality. The language you use also strongly hints at an impartial viewpoint.

            Microsoft are cutting bits out of Windows 10 in an attempt to cram their white elephant OS into the kiosk category cheap smartphone hardware in the desperate hope that somebody, somewhere will buy one. I wonder if the particular elephant organ or limb they remove will be the vital function someone buys the phone for in the first place This has also many flaws as regarding encouraging a vibrant app dev ecosystem, but beyond that, they promised a unified Windows10 and now (already) that is being fragmented.

            The sub 1% Smartphone market share you are so quick to dismiss probably includes Sailfish, FirefoxOS and the new launch of UbuntuPhone (due for release this month). None of them really depend on the app market that much as all mostly run webapps. All share the well defined linux security without Googles hamfisted botchups that turned Android into such a mess.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Wait,,,,What?

              "I could say..

              Zero known vulnerabilities.

              - If nobody uses it, it's not vulnerable.

              Malware,

              - it's probably lack of interest."

              You could but you would be talking utter bollocks.

              "You've only posted very vague summaries, 3rd hand sources at best, these could be just your assumption of the state of the smartphone security and not reality. "

              Do feel free to post something more conclusive? I could reference vulnerability counts and various articles on malware, but I was under the impression that this was well known already. At least by those with some knowledge of the subject matter....

            2. Neil Alexander

              Re: Wait,,,,What?

              "None of them really depend on the app market that much as all mostly run webapps"

              Hahaha. Ha. Ha. Web apps turn out well for no one. Remember Apple tried that once? Yeah, exactly.

          2. hplasm Silver badge
            Gimp

            Re: Wait,,,,What?

            "Windows Phone 8 - Zero known vulnerabilities. Zero known malware."

            Zero known users.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Wait,,,,What?

              "Zero known users."

              Microsoft sold 10.5 million Lumias last quarter alone. Not quite Android or IOS numbers, but still well into the tens of millions of Windows Phone users....And it's selling particularly well in the enterprise space - where security really matters.

              1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

                Re: Wait,,,,What?

                Microsoft sold 10.5 million Lumias last quarter alone

                No, they shipped 10.5 million of them.

              2. Dan 55 Silver badge
                Paris Hilton

                Re: Wait,,,,What?

                Is there a new field on El Reg's sign up page which asks you what phone you've got but due to a sloppy programming error unfortunately has the unhappy side effect of making you post as an Anonymous Coward if you ticked Lumia?

                Because that's the only thing I can think of which would generate such unwavering support for Lumias from Anonymous Cowards on this website.

                Or maybe they're all embarrassed?

                Maybe they could share the reason for this strange phenomenon with us.

                1. Richard Plinston Silver badge

                  Re: Wait,,,,What?

                  > unwavering support for Lumias from Anonymous Cowards on this website.

                  No, there is just one, otherwise known as TheVogan.

                2. Terry 6 Silver badge

                  Re: Wait,,,,What?

                  Love my Lumia. Not an AC.

                  It only has the half gig RAM though.

                  (A 635) So only cut down Win 10 for me I guess. Pity phones ( any phones) can't have RAM upgrades.

                  It does seem to be an industry trick (Apple's devices used to be terrible for this, though I've heard that it's got a bit better.) that small upgrades in spec between models lead to much higher retail costs. . So that if you are looking at the cost/benefit of a device you may well end up with a lower RAM unless you expect to be doing lots of graphic and video stuff.

                  Which is all very well as long as your phone maker doesn't then decide to develop an OS upgrade that demands the higher level of memory, while your phone is still a pretty recent model.

                  While I do like Microsoft's stuff their tendency to knee jerk development does p**s me off at times.

                  1. veti Silver badge

                    Re: Wait,,,,What?

                    Back in the day, Microsoft's policy was to design for "the next generation of hardware", on the basis that by the time their new product was developed, tested, beta-tested and shipped, "the next generation" would be entry-level.

                    That policy served them well for the first 15 years or so of Windows, until Vista. Then it bit them in the arse, hard. Vista found itself being sold on hardware that was totally unsuited to run it, and - partly as a result, although partly also on its own merits - it got a reputation for running like a leprous epileptic three-legged donkey.

                    Since then, they've actually been working in the opposite direction, to make each Windows release more efficient than the one before. On marginal hardware - assuming decent drivers are available - Windows 7 runs better than Vista, and Win 8 beats either. I would guess that Win 10 will continue that trend.

                    So there is no hardware-based impediment to MS supporting Windows on a half-gig Lumia device pretty much indefinitely. The decision is purely about marketing.

                    (Disclaimer: yes, I have a Lumia 520. Yes, it was cheap. And it's a nice device.)

                3. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: Wait,,,,What?

                  Or maybe they are all MS employees?

            2. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Wait,,,,What?

              At least 13 Microsoft employees voting here then - clear off back to the USA please...

          3. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Wait,,,,What?

            this sounds familiar so let's play.

            The claimed low vulnerabilities is due to the fact that 2% market share is not enough for anyone to bother trying to infect them.

            What I find interesting is how the press keeps posting so much about Windows Phone phones with so little marketshare. So few care about it yet the press keeps posting.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Wait,,,,What?

              Yes. 2%.

              I mean, who cares? They've been banging away for how long, and even giving away free, but still nobody is using it, though you'd never know if you saw all the noise here.

              Linux on the desktop, I mean.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: Wait,,,,What?

                "Yes. 2% ... Linux on the desktop, I mean."

                Yep, still more of those in the wild than Windows phones.

              2. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: Wait,,,,What?

                >Yes. 2%.

                >Linux on the desktop, I mean.

                Which is also why MS fanbois whine why there is so much more malware on Windows on the desktop. Turnabout is fair play huh?

            2. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Wait,,,,What?

              >What I find interesting is how the press keeps posting so much about Windows Phone phones with so little marketshare. So few care about it yet the press keeps posting.

              Which goes to show Microsoft's propaganda wing (sorry PR I mean) is still well funded and humming along nicely. Nothing beats lazy hack unpaid intern journalist wanna-bes rewording company press releases after all.

          4. nijam

            Re: Wait,,,,What?

            > Windows Phone 8 - Zero known vulnerabilities. Zero known malware.

            Yes, but you missed off "Zero known users. Zero known apps."

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Wait,,,,What?

              Yes, but you missed off "Zero known users. Zero known apps

              Facebook, twitter, instagram, candycrush, LinkedIn...of course many of those are happpily bundled in standard the People App...well that's 90% of user needs fulfilled.

              Here blows Google / Apple maps out of the water. Lumia cameras better than anything Apple and Samsung offer for even close the price (the app itself is way better). Mixradio another great one, oh of course Cortana.

              Still have to use my Samsung from work for my gas / electric readings, so it does have some use.

              Oh as you see, not AC and not a MS employee

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: Wait,,,,What?

                >Facebook, twitter, instagram, candycrush, LinkedIn...of course many of those are happpily bundled in standard the People App...well that's 90% of user needs fulfilled.

                >Here blows Google / Apple maps out of the water. Lumia cameras better than anything Apple and Samsung offer for even close the price (the app itself is way better). Mixradio another great one, oh of course Cortana.

                Cool save that. You can use it for WP's obituary here in 3 years or so.

          5. proud2bgrumpy

            Re: Wait,,,,What?

            @AC - zero known vulnerabilities / zero known malware (because nobody can be bothered writing the malware or finding the vulnerabilities for a trivial userbase.

            In fact - here are the stats from my dinky website:

            Windows Hits: 374 (Win7: 274 / Win8.1: 61 / WinXP: 23 / Vista: 15 / Win8: 3)

            Windows Phone: 4

            iOS 191

            OSX:61

            Android: 121

            Linux: 13

            ChromeOS: 4

            Blackberry: 1

          6. Mr.Bill

            Re: Wait,,,,What?

            "Millions infected with malware"

            yep, on non-google compliant models in 3rd world countries.

      2. Jess

        best camera sensor, lens, maps / nav,...

        I think I'd prefer a pureview 808

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        >>"just not "desirable""

        >Unless you happen to want the best camera sensor, lens, maps / nav, microphones / recording and screen contrast / touch panels and the most performant and secure OS available on any smartphone handset.

        Wasn't the Zune the best on paper as well? Desirable does not always have to do with specs as WP's tiny and declining market share can attest too. The market decides not Microsoft's corporate strategists or marketing team.

  2. Dave 126 Silver badge

    Windows 10 on desktop and on phone... C'mon Microsoft, do some things that Apple has never bothered to do*- such as making it easy for desktop applications to dump tool palettes onto a smaller touchscreen device. I'm not talking about the laggy high-bandwidth approach of just making the touchscreen device a secondary desktop monitor, but a well thought-out implementation. Give Windows 10 desktop users a reason to buy a Win 10 phone.

    This applies to you too, Ubuntu.

    * not quite true... iPhones have always had wireless MIDI baked-in, so have been easy to incorporate into electronic music workflows. And using

    http://music.tutsplus.com/tutorials/quick-tip-midi-translation-midi-to-keystrokes--audio-6914

    MIDI inputs can be output as keystrokes, so one could use any MIDI instrument to control any application with keyboard shortcuts. An example - using a Korg box of knobs and sliders to control Photoshop parameters - is here:

    http://www.bome.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3116

    (Strangely, I've only ever tried doing the opposite - trying to use a Wacom Baboo as an ersatz Korg Kaospad - but I got frustrated with Windows' sound subsystem and gave up in disgust. )

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Why would you want to drop a tool pallets onto a small touch screen when you could by a full blown touch screen for a fraction of the price?

    As for things like MIDI, part of the issue is, especially Android (yes fandroids this is a fact) is that Apple have the edge as they control the hardware and software, so the timings can be tightly controlled and given a known config. MS could do this to an extent, as most phones sold are the Lumia's but for music control, Android is out.

    1. Dave 126 Silver badge

      >Why would you want to drop a tool pallets onto a small touch screen when you could by a full blown touch screen for a fraction of the price?

      I take your point - for just displaying tool palettes the screen quality isn't important, so a very cheap 7" tablet would be perfectly adequate.

      What I was getting at was more the software integration between the desktop and the mobile OS. In the above example, I wouldn't' want the secondary display to emulate a mouse, because it would shift my cursor from where I want it. (DANG! I've just discovered that Adobe did this four years ago.... sorry for being slow on the uptake - I'm not an Apple user. http://appleinsider.com/articles/11/05/10/adobe_releases_photoshop_companion_apps_for_apples_ipad )

      Who has both a mobile and a desktop OS? Google*, Apple**, Microsoft, and possibly Ubuntu.

      For MS, having what will be a very common desktop OS should be an asset to help push their phone OS. It could be something as simple and convenient as including a suite of polished phone apps for controlling media playback on their desktopPC, through to full remote desktop.

      *okay, ChromeOS isn't too common, but Google have made the Chrome browser something akin to a User Environment... e.g desktop Chrome tabs open on my phone, Google have an experimental game viewed on the desktop Chrome but controlled by the gyroscopes on my phone, Chrome runs productivity applications and document storage...

      ** Apple have been adding 'Continuity', to allow some tasks to be handed over from MacOS to iOS and vice versa. Simple example, allowing the user to write SMS texts on their Mac. I don't know what took them so long.

      Even Sony are looking to merge their devices.... see Remote Play - playing PS4 games on their Android games across the LAN.

      1. Teiwaz Silver badge

        Small touchscreen

        I've been considering the possible value in a small touchscreen sitting close to the keybaord (7-10" max) as a large touchscreen would sit almost an arms length away in a traditional desktop configuration.

        This small touchscreen to be used for toolsets like the gimps tool windows, it could also free up the large screen from any on-screen panels and docks and be utilised as an onscreen keyboard. A little alteration to the likes of browsers and office apps and the toolbar could go there as well.

        X certainly has no baked in setting for this, and I doubt Wayland or Mir exactly have this in mind. A tiling WM like i3 could probably approximate as long as the role of the window to be matched could be identified from the main application window.

        1. Dave 126 Silver badge

          Re: Small touchscreen

          Thanks Teiwaz.

          I looked into this very briefly the other day - I'm not a regular Linux user. Reading a bit more, I found a few threads in which Ubuntu users were struggling to use multiple workspaces with multiple displays - where each display was dedicated to a workspace. I didn't read on enough to discover if they had found a solution.

          I don't get on well with the GIMP on Windows because its tool palettes hide each other, though I've heard it is much nicer on some Linux distros because it benefits from a window manager.

          I was actually prompted into looking into this by the article about two upcoming Ubuntu phones... and again, wondering if 'synergies could be leveraged'* between Ubuntu Phone and Destop.

          *Yeah, I know. I deserve some abuse for that.

          1. Teiwaz Silver badge

            Re: Small touchscreen

            I keep seeing the odd small reference that Enlightenment (one of the new ones) can do the 'workspace per screen' workflow most tilers do, but every times I try to find the original source I fail, and I can find no clue in the Enlightenment config (which is an unholy mess IMO).

            It's really down to the WM behind the desktop, which on Unity is still currently Compiz. I am currently running i3wm with two screens, browser on topscreen in workspace4, terminal on bottom in workspace 2, I can change workspaces on the bottom and the browser stays where it is. Had I a small touchscreen additional to this I could also have my music player on workspace 0 on it and be able to flick tracks with a finger, this is a rudimentary use and trivial to pull off with a simple couple of entries in i3s config setting Clementine music player to the workspace 0 (as it is already) and workspce 0 bound to the touchscreen. Other configurations could be added too for example, move the musicplayer to scratchpad when I activate an omscreen keyboard to the touchscreen to be returned when the keyboard is dismissed. Gimps toolbox assigned to a specific dimension and place on the screen might be a little more dificult to achieve on i3, but it's doable on Xmonad or Subtle window managers.

            Kwin as some quite good controls baked in allowiing you to bind windows and applications to certain desktops/activities, and Enlightenment creates DESKTOP folders for each screen. Unitys approach to workspaces is the one thing I find wrong with that ui, it just doesn't fit my workflow, and as workspaces are switched off by default it's obvious ubuntu doesn't rate workspaces highly as a design feature.

            Oooh, I've almost convinced myself, I wonder if that usb 10" capacitive touchscreen I saw on Anders has dropped in price from £200 yet (hmm, it's that or the ubuntu phone).

        2. Robert E A Harvey

          Re: Small touchscreen

          I have an wacom intuos graphics tablet next to my keyboard which I can use as a touch device. OK, it's not got a display on it, but you can manipulate the mouse pointer, pinch-zoom, and do other gestures on it. It's great.

          1. Teiwaz Silver badge

            Re: Small touchscreen

            Yeah, I already have a logitech t650 (about 13cm squareis), nice device shame about the non-existant linux support from logitech, but it was reduced in price so I chanced getting it working on linux.

            It only lacks touch to click (I have to press down on it), which requires a firmware update (using a windows OS, which I don't have).

            I also want to look into current handwriting recog as I think this is a input method that's currently underapreciated for it's potential usefulness for the desktop paradigm.

    2. Mr.Bill

      "Apple have the edge as they control the hardware and software, so the timings can be tightly controlled and given a known config"

      Using Samsung as an example, just as with Apple and not "android", I have a Galaxy Note, for which samsung controls the hardware, and essentially the software as they can modify whatever they want as long as it passes google compatibility tests. So you can't necessarily compare "android" here - only base AOSP android.

      So, to say that apple controls the hardware and software, but not Samsung, or any OEM for that matter, is not correct. You are just saying "android" as in "google", who doesn't make hardware. This is why there is that "update delay" always brought up regarding android updates. What are many of them doing during this time? "tightly controlling their timings", for one.

      Samsung has always added and tweaked things over stock android. Music control works just fine, although I cannot speak for MIDI but how hard can that be? I have used real time guitar effect apps such as Andrig that stock Lollipop has only now caught up to as far as latency, which is on par with apple.

      So, while there is some truth to what you say as a blanket statement, it is not true when you start talking about specific models of android based phones.

      And windows? The OEMs cannot customize the source code. So there is certainly no optimization they can control there. MS's own lumia's could but how are they going to get any OEMs to be excited about making their phones if Lumia has the advantage?

  4. Aslan

    So does this mean you'll be fixing my HTC HD7 then?

    I've got a lovely phone, an HTC HD7. The only problem is the OS it runs, Windows Phone 7 and the horrid browser called Internet Explorer. It's the worst smartphone browser I've ever used. Worst smartphone too. To get something less capable and stable it would have to be a featurephone browser. Other than the OS the HTC HD7 is a wonderful device, a decent phone, an excellent videoplayer if you have the video in exactly the right format, and a good music player. So does this mean Microsoft is finally going to fix their software and make the HTC HD7 a good device?

  5. RyokuMas Silver badge
    Boffin

    Developer... sense... tingling...

    "some Windows 10 features will be cut out"

    Come on Microsoft, let's have a list of exactly what's getting chopped - keeping developers hanging on not knowing what's going to work and what isn't going to win you any friends. God knows, you've got a tough enough battle thanks to FUD based on estimates and antiquated links - no need to make things harder for yourselves!

    1. JDX Gold badge

      Re: Developer... sense... tingling...

      If they're still working on it, they probably don't know themselves yet.

    2. A Non e-mouse Silver badge
      Joke

      Re: Developer... sense... tingling...

      But Microsoft said there's no need to identify what version of Windows a device is running:

      www.theregister.co.uk/2015/02/09/microsoft_explains_windows_as_a_service_but_how_many_versions_is_too_many/

      And just like any Internet service, the idea of asking ‘What version are you on?’ will cease to make sense – which is great news for our Windows developers

      (Yes, I know the article is really about Windows on the desktop, but the gag was too good to miss. It's Monday: Cut me some slack!)

      1. Kristian Walsh Silver badge

        Re: Developer... sense... tingling...

        For phone apps, the store submission script is where you'd enforce version capabilities.

        Also, the phone store doesn't have to serve the same app binary to every user. You can submit different packages under the same "application", and which one the user sees is determined by their device and/or locale.

        My experience is that maintaining two branches of an application is far less messy than having all the possibilities encapsulated in one source-file, or worse: all in one executable.

    3. Dan 55 Silver badge
      Happy

      Re: Developer... sense... tingling...

      It's going to be a new theme. Bet the apps are still Windows 8 apps instead of Universal apps.

  6. Planty Bronze badge

    Ambition

    so that's a no then.. But don't let that stop you buying one and living in hope....

    1. cambsukguy

      Re: Ambition

      99% of all buyers of 520s are not sure what an OS is. They do not care whether an update occurs because they don't know what their phone can do now.

      An anecdote... I once replied to a text using voice control to someone I was going to meet, "Will be there soon, just turning off the main road".

      The later conversation involved her wondering how I managed to text while driving and her discovering that it was even possible to use her iPhone to answer texts while driving - although I think she tried and gave up.

      The point being was that she used an iPhone 4, Siri was world famous and she still had no idea.

      The 'limited' features may be memory limited in some cases, even storage limited since some Lumias are very lowly specified but also hardware limited since many will lack suitable hardware, including older high-end devices. This is SOP for putting new software on old hardware.

      Besides, none of the Win10 changes I have seen thus far are relevant to phone use, except the universal app thing meaning more apps could exist.

  7. Big_Ted

    One of the nicest phones I have ever held was the HTC 8X but I had to get rid of it due to lack of certain apps I needed that were not available at the time.

    Might look for a good one now if it will get windows 10 upgrade.

    1. Ryan Clark

      I had an 8x as well and it has been the best smartphone I have owned. Unfortunately the battery life reduced dramatically 18months into my tenure. Just replaced it with a Nokia 930 which I am still getting to grips with.

  8. Phoenix50

    "New chapter for a sad story"

    My god Gavin, you're not even trying to hide your hatred for Microsoft anymore are you?

    Just come out already and admit it - they could s**t gold bricks into your bank account for 10 years and you'd still slag them off.

    I'd say I'm sick and tired of reading your unapologetic bias against them, but I have just about enough energy to bother coming on here and commenting on it.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: "New chapter for a sad story"

      Grow up...

    2. Teiwaz Silver badge

      Re: "New chapter for a sad story"

      "they could s**t gold bricks into your bank account for 10 years and you'd still slag them off."

      They don't even do that for their shareholders... They've had to grab the goose by the neck and wring it thoroughly until it dumps a few measly pellets.

  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    With an utter lack of scientific and statistical rigour...

    ...I'm a bit puzzled why the published market share of Windows Phone doesn't match my commuting experience, where I reckon around 10% or so of people using phones that I can see, are using a Nokia running Windows phone.

    I also know of one or two large firms where the much-hated and primitive BBs are being retired in favour of Nokias across all locations, so I'd say Microsoft have turned a corner. But see title for caveats.

    1. M E H

      Re: With an utter lack of scientific and statistical rigour...

      I'd agree with this. I got bored with my iPhone and loath Android so got a Lumia 2 years ago and haven't looked back. It is a bit clunky in places but generally easy to use, well made and clear to look at.

      My employers now issue Lumias as standard now as we can't source suitable BlackBerries through our mobile phone supplier.

      If it wasn't for a lack of apps I'd probably keep mine longer term but I've just changed to a SIM only tariff and might change to an iPhone 6 if the mood takes me.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Happy

      Re: With an utter lack of scientific and statistical rigour...

      I think the UK and Europe is quite popular for Lumia's, but less so the rest of the world.

      Saturday was weird, out of 5 people I saw using their phones, 3 were Lumia's.

    3. Jess

      Re: With an utter lack of scientific and statistical rigour...

      Possibly you live in a statistical blip?

      Yesterday I was in a van and 66% of the phones were BB10, and the other a dumb-phone. Does that mean BB has 100% of the market?

    4. Jes.e

      Re: With an utter lack of scientific and statistical rigour...

      "...I'm a bit puzzled why the published market share of Windows Phone doesn't match my commuting experience, where I reckon around 10% or so of people using phones that I can see, are using a Nokia running Windows phone."

      I'm puzzled also.

      I live in Seattle.. you know, right across the lake from Redmond and when I use the bus 75 percent of the riders are head down in a smartphone.

      *None* of them are Windows phone..

      ..Eaqualy split between iPhone all in cases, and gigantic Android Phablets.

      Women tend to have iPhone and Asian guys ALL seemingly have giant screen gaming devices.

      I have a BB10 and have only seen one other person using a BlackBerry, an older one.

      My biggest point of interest is where those guys are keeping their big screen devices..

      I haven't noticed male purses or fanny packs, nor have I seen any sporrans being worn.

      It's a mystery..

      1. veti Silver badge

        Re: With an utter lack of scientific and statistical rigour...

        Microsoft's marketing in the USA makes it perversely difficult to buy a Windows phone there. (Sample anecdote.)

        Compare that with - well, almost anywhere else - where the mobile companies themselves aren't married to either Apple or Google, so they have no problem with shifting the handsets. In Australia, for instance, Windows Phone has close to 10% market share. Actual data are hard to come by, but anecdotes and personal observation aren't, and if you walk into one of my local phone stores and ask for a cheap phone, they'll sell you a Lumia.

      2. cambsukguy

        Re: With an utter lack of scientific and statistical rigour...

        The USA is statistically anomalous in this area.

        The word smartphone is used but often, in literature and the media, the word iPhone is used instead.

        This is reflected (and perhaps caused by) the very high penetration of actual iPhones.

        The USA is wealthy, the extra cost associated with an iPhone is easier to bear.

        The USA is marketed to so much that they actually listen to advertising that tells them to ask their doctor for medicine by name. I repeat, they ALLOW PEOPLE TO ASK DOCTORS FOR MEDICINE BY NAME! Worse, doctors often capitulate and actually give them what they ask for. The use the word Tylenol for Paracetamol (which they call Acetaminophen),

        In short, branding is everything, Philips spent a fortune getting name recognition when they were one of the largest companies in the world because the brands they owned names like Magnavox. For an indication of product placement watch Gene Hackman view and squash Will Smith's Philips pager in Enemy of the State - the pager takes up the whole screen at one point. I worked on that pager, hence the strong memory.

        Despite Lumias being sort of American, iPhones are seen as truly American and this also matters.

        The figures for the USA are not indicative of the rest of the world, especially poorer places and places that, for instance, use dual SIM devices of which Apple produce precisely zero.

        Apple make products to make Apple rich, not for the world to actually use.

  10. John Sanders
    Boffin

    """Microsoft is working to get Windows 10 working on devices with just 512MB RAM, including the Lumia 520."""

    """Just one catch: small memory means sacrifice and some Windows 10 features will be cut out to make the forthcoming OS run on the phones."""

    That a single-user embedded device requires more RAM than 512MB is something I still still have a problem getting used to.

    Note, this is not a complain against Microsoft, just the industry in general.

    1. Loud Speaker

      "Just 512MB RAM, " - from the people thought 640k was enough for anyone!

      Its a phone, damn it! How long before a watch requires 640GB?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Stop

        from the people thought 640k was enough for anyone.

        You're new here I guess, otherwise you know that is an urban legend.

        He *may* of said "640k ought to be enough for anyone", well, in the 1970's it probably was"

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    It is not the 10 they want you to think !

    They are really just removing the 'Phone' word from Windows Phone.

    If they keep saying it enough people will believe 10 is up from 7 which is up from XP !

    Will the con work ?

  12. larryk78
    Coffee/keyboard

    No such thing as "future proof" hardware

    Any moderately capable programmer knows that you have to respect the constraints of your environment. Failure to keep your peak RAM usage under the available physical RAM will lead to paging. When that happens, performance and user experience deteriorate.

    Meanwhile, for an OS to have an identical feature set on every possible target device would mean developing for the lowest common denominator. That would mean building the experience for $50 phones, original purchase prices of older generations of hardware notwithstanding.

    Being able to flex the feature set to maximise yet not degrade system resources on multiple hardware platforms is not just common sense, it's business sense. Dropping out RAM-hungry features on older hardware is what all software vendors do when providing upgrades for older hardware. Not news.

  13. thomas k.

    520 as iPod killer?

    This is the mp3 player Zune should have been. I can listen to my tunes, watch videos and surf the web. Oh, and it makes phones calls, too!

    Satisfied 520 user here.

  14. Youngone Silver badge

    Lumia Users

    I don't have a Windows phone, and don't want one either, but I have noticed several people in my general circle with Lumias of one model or another and they have a couple of things in common.

    They are all non-technical people who don't want to learn how to use a new piece of tech.

    They are also not prepared to shell out big bucks for an iPhone.

    That might be Microsoft's market then.

    I would imagine there are an awful lot of those sorts about.

    1. Terry 6 Silver badge

      Re: Lumia Users

      Well, yes

      Not prepared to shell out on the Apple Tax, paying a supplement for Apple's costume jewellery.

      But if you want a functioning smartphone that does the job well at a price that makes sense for its purpose the WinPhone is ideal.

      And if you just want a device for porting spyware into flashy games, get an Android Googlephone.

      1. cambsukguy

        Re: Lumia Users

        Also bear in mind that a Lumia is a tougher phone and probably has better reception, both things because the case is plastic, and you have more reasons to select it.

        Add the built-in maps which reduce your monthly data costs and the free streaming music service and maybe there are other reasons too.

  15. SpiderPig

    So What.....

    To be honest who really gives a toss......MS will end up making a complete mess of what was once a magnificent phone business.

  16. xox101

    Too little...too late. Microsoft is like a puppy...constantly chasing after a juicy bone, in any direction. I love my 1020, ok so it's not the fastest but fantastic camera and hardware. But what is the point of a shiny new operating system without apps to install on it? Without the apps I don't care how good the system is! Dropped the ball again MS.

    1. RyokuMas Silver badge
      Facepalm

      The great app pissing contest...

      "Without the apps I don't care how good the system is!"

      Right, before the downvoting commences, I absolutely accept that the Windows store has a lot fewer apps than the App Store or Play, and that this is not due to "quality vs quantity" reasons.

      I also accept that there are people out there who are after reasonably specialised apps to fulfill a specific need, and there is a good chance that there is nothing available for Windows Phone that meets this requirement.

      Finally, I understand that a large company may opt not to make a Windows Phone version of their app for whatever reason - because they don't perceive it as financially viable, because they want to keep exclusivity for their own smartphone OS, whatever.

      But I just don't get this perpetual wailing about "not enough apps". I remember seeing a list a while back where one anti-WinPhone commenter posted a list of apps that were allegedly "unavailable" for Windows Phone, only for someone else to post in response stating which apps were available either in their official form or as an unofficial substitute, and I think the only one missing was YouTube.

      Ask yourself - how many apps do you use every day? every week? And how many would the average man on the street use? Apart from as a statistic to wave at other mobile operating systems, does it really make a difference how many apps are available?

      Personally, I'd like to see a lot fewer apps on all stores - regardless of operating system. Quality over quantity, there's far too much crapware out there...

      And as for people on here commenting about the lack of apps... I thought this was supposed to be an I.T. site? If there's something you're after specifically - again, regardless of platform - why not try building it yourself? There's enough cross-platform toolkits out there, and your creation just might be the next killer app...

      1. Richard Plinston Silver badge

        Re: The great app pissing contest...

        > I understand that a large company may opt not to make a Windows Phone version of their app for whatever reason - because they don't perceive it as financially viable, because they want to keep exclusivity for their own smartphone OS, whatever.

        It seems to me that there are many reasons for not developing for Windows Phone. This starts with the complete discontinuity that MS has wrought with zero compatibility from WM 6.5 to WP7 and then again from WP7 to WP8. Now they are moving to 'Universal Apps' so WP8 apps will be another dead end. Then it is alleged that MS has paid developers for WP versions of iOS and Android apps. Other companies will also want that subsidy so will wait for MS money rather than invest their own.

        > If there's something you're after specifically - again, regardless of platform - why not try building it yourself? There's enough cross-platform toolkits out there, and your creation just might be the next killer app...

        Many cross platform tools require licensing, either per seat, or per end user. Others require development in non-native languages or are web-based. Either way they require a large investment in time and/or money. Also, of course, they need testing on each target so you are suggesting that instead of buying a phone that already has the app available they should write their own version and buy several phones to test it on.

        1. cambsukguy

          Re: The great app pissing contest...

          > and then again from WP7 to WP8

          This is tosh. Almost every app that was written for WP7 ran on WP8 unchanged - I know because I switched phones at the time and installed almost everything I had on the new phone.

          MS did a huge amount of impressive work to make the binaries operate with a completely new kernel and I recall many were surprised at how transparently they did it.

          And W10 phones will run almost WP8 apps as binaries of that you can be sure. There may be some apps that needs tweaks or a rebuild for minor reasons of incompatibility but they will be very small minority.

          What will happen in parallel is that the same WP8 apps may be able to be rebuilt with changes to operate in Win10 tablets and desktops.

          1. Richard Plinston Silver badge

            Re: The great app pissing contest...

            > This is tosh. Almost every app that was written for WP7 ran on WP8 unchanged - I know because I switched phones at the time and installed almost everything I had on the new phone.

            https://msdn.microsoft.com/library/windows/apps/jj206947(v=vs.105).aspx#BKMK_BreakingchangesinWindowsPhone8

        2. RyokuMas Silver badge
          Boffin

          Re: The great app pissing contest...

          "This starts with the complete discontinuity that MS has wrought with zero compatibility... from WP7 to WP8."

          Sorry, but I have to agree with cambsukguy on this - before going cross-platform (brought about by XNA's deprecation), I had seven games out on WinPhone7, all of them continued to work fine on WP8, and now on WP8.1... although I can't say anything much about other apps, as for the most part my devices were used for testing my own projects as opposed to running other peoples'.

          Do you have a link to a list of apps that are known to have been broken by the update to WP8?

          "...instead of buying a phone that already has the app available they should write their own version... "

          Hmmm, guess I wasn't explicit enough in my original comment...

          "If there's something you're after specifically - again, regardless of platform - why not try building it yourself?"

          If you can get what you want and you're looking to buy a new phone then absolutely! Get the phone with the apps that fulfill your needs - that's basic common sense. But if you've got a phone and you find that it doesn't have an app to do what you want... well, some might relish the challenge of having a go at building the app that meets their needs, as opposed to shelling out for a new phone.

          "...and buy several phones to test it on."

          Test clouds and emulators will get you a long way on this front.

          And as for the investment in cross-platform tools - well, I for one am more than happy to trade this off against having to maintain multiple codebases in entirely different languages.

      2. cambsukguy

        Re: The great app pissing contest...

        I agree with this app thing, and some of the WinPhone apps, including the 'built-ins' are superior to their counterparts on other OSs.

        But the youtube comment is strange - there are a huge number of yt apps, including one from MS.

        But Metrotube is better than all of them I have seen as well as having no ads.

  17. Munkstar

    Windows mobile is a very good effort and works fine for me from Cortana text talk in the car to MixRadio music streaming, podcasts, MSN apps, lumia camera apps etc. if you haven't got one you don't know what your talking about ..... not that that appears to be an impediment here.

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