back to article Why Windows 10 on Raspberry Pi 2? Upton: 'I drank the Kool-Aid'

Today Microsoft and the Raspberry Pi Foundation announced that Windows 10 will run on the new Raspberry Pi 2. But why? The Register spoke to Pi founder and CEO Eben Upton. “We’ve had people queuing up and saying they want Windows, the whole time,” says Upton. “I think there’s a sense that 'you’re a real PC' if you run Windows …

  1. Spiracle

    “In terms of whether we approached Microsoft, or Microsoft approached us, I don’t think it was either, I think it was a conversation in a bar,”

    Let's see, The Flying Pig on Hills Road is handy for MS Research and, given the story, appropriately named.

    1. Thecowking

      I think they drink in The Salisbury though, it's a lot closer for them and the food's better.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        both wrong....

        take it from me as someone posting from inside MS Research, they like their real ales. The Cambridge Blue it is.

        Me, I like the Pig :-)

        1. Roland6 Silver badge
          Pint

          Re: both wrong....

          >Me, I like the Pig :-)

          But which one? Hop Trotter, Captain Pigwash, Yeller Belly...

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Well at least this should make using a Pi a lot easier and more accessible. And if Windows 8.1 versus Ubuntu 14 is anything to go by, faster for most things too.

    3. Stretch

      Ha! Yeah they drink in there. Obviously. That's a place that will show up a lot on Grindr if you get my meaning.

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Strangely these days, Kool Aid from M$ seems more tasty than Google's.

      Times they are a changin'

  2. Voland's right hand Silver badge

    Excellent

    Well, I am going to say this agian (to be downvoted again by the fanboys):

    With this in mind, I am not surprised about the the announcement of core and memory increase to match the Windows 10 requirements which is _NOT_ a Linux requirement or a requirement for 99.9% of current Pi apps.

    Now let the downvotes commence.

    1. James Hughes 1

      Re: Excellent

      As someone who has actually spoken to Eben Upton about this, let me say again - this upgrade was NOT done at the behest of MS, nor was it done for MS.

      It was done because there is now serious multicore competition in SBC space, and because the new chip became available. Note that there has been no increase in price. If this upgrade could only be done by a price increase, it would not yet have happened, MS or no MS.

    2. jaywin

      Re: Excellent

      > I am not surprised about the the announcement of core and memory increase to match the Windows 10 requirements which is _NOT_ a Linux requirement or a requirement for 99.9% of current Pi apps.

      And what about the ∞% of apps which can't run on the existing Pi hardware, but could with a hardware upgrade? Just because the only use you can see is as a media centre or NAS, doesn't mean every possible use for the Pi is already out there and running happily.

      Only two weeks ago we wrote off using the RasPi for our digital signage software, because it couldn't run the animations smoothly enough. I suspect the new version will be more than adequate, so the order has gone in for one for testing.

    3. Lysenko

      Re: Excellent

      "With this in mind, I am not surprised about the the announcement of core and memory increase to match the Windows 10 requirements which is _NOT_ a Linux requirement or a requirement for 99.9% of current Pi apps."

      The devil is in the detail. Windows on embedded ARM is nothing new. The FreeScale MX28 SBC's we use can run Windows Embedded Compact 7 (essentially WinCE) so no surprise that *some* Win10 variant or other will run on a Pi.

      Most track side monitors on the rail system run Win7 on ARM, as do lots of security scanners in airports. If the Pi guys want to grow their industrial side (and they repeatedly make reference to such customers) then they need Windows on the Pi more than MSFT does.

      We use Linux incidentally. I just know a lot of the competition don't.

    4. P. Lee Silver badge

      Re: Excellent

      >I am not surprised about the the announcement of core and memory increase to match the Windows 10 requirements which is _NOT_ a Linux requirement

      Not an essential requirement but there is more than one distro which needs > 756MB RAM to install. Redhat (Fedora?) and Suse spring to mind, unless things have changed recently. I'm sure its possible to squeeze them in somehow, but why make it hard? Extra memory also improves the ability to buffer which can mean less stress on disk systems, which if memory serves are USB which put a strain on the CPU.

      1. Richard Plinston Silver badge

        Re: Excellent

        > more than one distro which needs > 756MB RAM to install.

        That would be if one is using a graphical installer to install a distro that includes a (or several) GUI.

        OTOH other distros will install and run on RPi model A with 256Kb with a GUI (LXDE).

        I used to run FreeSCO Linux on a 386 with 20Mbyte RAM booting from a diskette (1.44MByte). It was a router/firewall that ran other services.

        1. JDX Gold badge

          Re: Excellent

          And I used to run Windows on a system with far less than that - so what?

    5. Flywheel Silver badge

      Re: Excellent

      Of course it's not a Linux requirement, but it'll be very nice to have. I haven't experienced memory usage problems on my Raspberries but I'm looking forward to having the mail server run in a more lively fashion.

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Embrace. Extend. Extinguish.

    Keep reminding yourself of the above until sanity returns.

    "Their feeling is that they have the most secure operating system to build IoT applications." - Microsoft have been negligent regarding security for a long time. We've all been bitten in the past, it will take a longer time to trust them again.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Embrace. Extend. Extinguish.

      "Microsoft have been negligent regarding security for a long time. We've all been bitten in the past, it will take a longer time to trust them again"

      Well Windows has had fewer vulnerabilities every year that on average have been fixed faster than the most common enterprise Linux distributions for over a decade now...

      And the Microsoft application servers like IIS and SQL are way ahead of the competition in terms of number of vulnerabilities in the same time period too.

      1. Flocke Kroes Silver badge

        Please link to your numbers

        Last time I saw Microsoft's numbers, Microsoft scored 52/year (patch Tuesday) and the Linux numbers included every package multiplied by the number of distributions. I admit that was a long time ago and things have changed - these days Microsoft do not update every Tuesday.

        1. Sandtitz Silver badge
          FAIL

          Re: Please link to your numbers @Flocke

          "Last time I saw Microsoft's numbers, Microsoft scored 52/year (patch Tuesday) and the Linux numbers included every package multiplied by the number of distributions. I admit that was a long time ago and things have changed - these days Microsoft do not update every Tuesday."

          "Better to Remain Silent and Be Thought a Fool than to Speak and Remove All Doubt"

          Patch Tuesday is so named because the patches are usually delivered on the second Tuesday of every month. That's about 12 "Patch Tuesdays" per year. Not 52.

          Since the Patch Tuesday was established in 2003, it may be better if you refrain commenting on things you apparently have little knowledge of.

          Linux kernel apparently had 133 publicly disclosed vulnerabilities in 2014.

          Windows 7 apparently had 37 vulnerabilities in 2014

          These are not "MS numbers", and don't include the different packages.

          Feel free to point the errors in this post.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Please link to your numbers @Flocke

            "These are not "MS numbers", and don't include the different packages.

            Feel free to point the errors in this post."

            The first error is that you're using CVE details for a purpose which the CVE people explicitly say they should not be used (unless things have changed since last time we went through these hoops on here).

            With a start like that, I don't see much else to address.

    2. Z80A

      Re: Embrace. Extend. Extinguish.

      Microsoft has form against little Linux machines - remember netbooks. After Microsoft embraced them, the skinny Linux models were driven out by fatter Windows 7 based ones. History will recur.

      1. Suricou Raven

        Re: Embrace. Extend. Extinguish.

        It's hard to even get a netbook these days - manufacturers realised that their razor-thin-margin netbook products were eating into the sales of their far more profitable ultrabook products.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Embrace. Extend. Extinguish.

          Many of them were taken back because they had Linux on them (remember, these were ordinary members of the public expecting Windows).

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Embrace. Extend. Extinguish.

            "Many of them were taken back because they had Linux on them (remember, these were ordinary members of the public expecting Windows)."

            And more importantly, they cost the vendors a lot more to support.

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Embrace. Extend. Extinguish.

            "Many of them were taken back because they had Linux on them (remember, these were ordinary members of the public expecting Windows)."

            I expect these people (and a lot more) are now running Android or iPad tablets without worrying too much about Windows

            1. Tim Jenkins

              Re: Embrace. Extend. Extinguish.

              True, but they probably don't expect those devices to be able to digest a pirated Office 2003 CD or attach to their Argos-issue USB printer, which they did when they bought that temptingly priced netbook, took it home and found Lin-something-or-other on it...

        2. plrndl

          Re: Embrace. Extend. Extinguish.

          @ Suricou Raven

          Netbooks and ultra books are at opposite ends of the market, and do not compete.

          MS & Intel killed off netbooks to protect their fatter margins on fatter devices. Netbooks have been replaced by tablets, and the evil duo have lost out completely (PMSL).

          Ultrabooks are Mac Airs for people who want to run Windows.

          1. dajames Silver badge

            Netbooks (Was: Embrace. Extend. Extinguish)

            Netbooks and ultra books are at opposite ends of the market, and do not compete.

            That's what the marketing people keep telling us, but most people just see a notebook that is smaller and more portable than other notebooks. Those who can afford an ultrabook buy one, everyone else just bemoans the demise of the netbook (and probably buys a cheap tablet).

        3. Greg Fawcett

          Re: Embrace. Extend. Extinguish.

          My perception is that netbooks evolved into chromebooks. The manufacturers still have the issue with cannibalising laptop sales, but at least they don't have to pay for or support the OS.

      2. Anonymous Blowhard

        Re: Embrace. Extend. Extinguish.

        "Microsoft has form against little Linux machines - remember netbooks. After Microsoft embraced them, the skinny Linux models were driven out by fatter Windows 7 based ones. History will recur."

        The factors that worked against Linux based NetBooks are not applicable for Raspberry Pi; lets go through them:

        1) Users appeared to want Windows; many manufacturers and retailers had problems because people bought what they thought was a "Windows PC" and then complained when they found it wasn't.

        http://blog.laptopmag.com/ubuntu-confirms-linux-netbook-returns-higher-than-anticpated

        2) Manufacturers of NetBooks also sold Windows PC and may have been subject to commercial pressure from Microsoft. In the case of Windows on Raspberry Pi, there's no commercial relationship between Microsoft and Raspberry Pi Foundation; even if Microsoft were making a charitable donation to them, how could this be used to force out Linux?

        I still have my Asus Eee PC 901; bought with Windows (because it was cheaper) and currently running Mint 14, it's a great machine with Linux but my requirements and expectations aren't the same as the average PC buyer. I suspect that many people who wouldn't touch a non-Windows NetBook won't buy a non-Apple tablet either.

        1. Anonymous Blowhard

          Re: Embrace. Extend. Extinguish.

          I forgot to add my take on why Microsoft want to be on Raspberry Pi; which is most likely because they see it as a potential growth area in which they aren't already toast (i.e. mobile) and being second to the party is still better than not going at all (Apple?).

    3. Peter Brooks 1

      Re: Embrace. Extend. Extinguish.

      A long time == Never

      You can never trust a binary from anybody.

      With Microsoft nobody sane would trust their open source either.

      I'm expecting somebody to find a trojan in all that .NET bloat. It can only be a matter of time IMHO.

      1. daywalker03

        Re: Embrace. Extend. Extinguish.

        Well, given that they are most likely going to be using .NET Core/.NET Native to allow apps to run on the Pi (and other Windows Embedded platforms), and .NET Core is open source, I expect people to be keeping an eye on that.

    4. Suricou Raven

      Re: Embrace. Extend. Extinguish.

      Not so much negligence as differing priorities. Microsoft is very reluctant to do anything that would break backwards compatibility, which often means compromising on security. They also strongly dislike anything that could confuse or inconvenience users at all.

      1. Pookietoo
        FAIL

        Re: strongly dislike anything that could confuse or inconvenience users

        That explains why Windows 8 was so intuitive and user-friendly then.

    5. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Embrace. Extend. Extinguish.

      The story is different this time, this time I believe "they" want to support the platform: It should be clear by now that every tool, service and system offered by an American corporation is also a weapon in disguise, always ready to do the bidding of it's non-elected masters.

      The way the yanks see it, hackers, hobbyists and people freely running software on "off-shore" hardware simply weakens National Security, so they have to get their tentacles inside that space or else Terrorists, Child Molesters and Space Aliens will MURDER US ALL - possibly by corrupting our vital fluids!!!

      Microsoft is simply the gateway for the tentacled ones, know only by the Three Letter Acronyms. They are there because they are ordered to.

    6. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Embrace. Extend. Extinguish.

      >>> Microsoft have been negligent regarding security for a long time. We've all been bitten in the past, it will take a longer time to trust them again.

      Please, that BS is years out of date. A long time ago there were big security holes as they were taking what was effectively a standalone desktop operating system (early windows) and putting it on the internet, but those holes are long since patched. Now all the big scares seem to be decade old unix bugs and problems with the android malware.

      You're right to be worried though, MS has a techie in charge again and he's making ALL the right moves. Doesn't bear well for you "I trust google" dickheads.

  4. Palpy

    Fwoar! Oh, my.

    "... I think there’s a sense that 'you’re a real PC' if you run Windows.”

    Win 10 on ARM -- is it going to be RT redux? As Vaughan-Nichols wrote, "Windows RT, Windows 8 for ARM, is both a confusing mess and crippleware."

    *shrug*

    1. Dan 55 Silver badge

      Re: Fwoar! Oh, my.

      As well as no Win32 it seems yet have to run VS on another computer, compile, and deploy to the Pi.

      For universal apps on kiosk displays I suppose it'll work, I'm not sure about anything else.

      And here was me thinking MS had had a funny turn and Win32 on ARM was going to be unrestricted and VS was going to compile ARM.

      1. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge
        Windows

        Re: Fwoar! Oh, my.

        “I think there’s a sense that 'you’re a real PC' if you run Windows.”

        Filthy casuals!

    2. Flocke Kroes Silver badge

      Looks like a cut down RT thing

      I found more information here. As I became a penguin last millennium, I could easily have misunderstood some the things I read about Windows for Pi.

      If I understand what I read there and elsewhere correctly, a Windows Pi is not a developer's computer. A developer works on some other computer, creates a Windows Pi executable and transfers it to a Pi to run. When the target is a 300MHz MIPS, OK. When the target is a single core 700MHz ARMv6, and the application is big, then OK, but for 4x900MHz ARMv7: Why?

      I think I found a why. If I understood correctly, Windows has some alternative to NFS with some weird authentication protocol that only Windows understands (excuse: I am a penguin, so really do not know what the Microsofties were talking about). Now you can connect to this stuff with a $35 pi instead of the $299 box Microsoft needed to run their software.

      The only really consistent thing I have seen about Windows for Pi is that Microsoft will make an announcement real soon now. I get the impression Marketing do not know anything yet and Microsoft's techies found out about the project from The Register.

    3. joed

      Re: Fwoar! Oh, my.

      and haven't they stop work on RT - no official 10 version for the platform, no new Surface, maybe some updates.

      Not that anyone cared.

      1. Hellcat

        Re: Fwoar! Oh, my.

        No, they said RT surfaces would get Windows 10, but not all the features. Not that it makes much difference to me and I even own one. The OS will still work long after Windows 10 is retired - same for Windows phone 7 handsets. They still make calls, text, facebook etc yadda yadda.

  5. sisk Silver badge

    Security???

    Ok, admittedly MS has made huge strides on improving their security, but they're a long ways from security being a reason that you choose Windows. And the most secure for IoT? Yeah, not even close. That would be BSD, with Linux as a close second and Windows still closing the gap.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Security???

      "That would be BSD, with Linux as a close second and Windows still closing the gap"

      You are out of date. Windows is a long way ahead of Linux there. Just look at website defacement stats and then divide by market share. You are far more likely to be compromised these days running a Linux server stack than a Windows one.

      1. Peter Gathercole Silver badge

        Re: Security??? @AC

        "Just look at website defacement stats" - this old chestnut again.

        You're looking at the wrong thing. Websites may run on computers running Linux, but the code that delivers the web site is not Linux in the same way that IIS is not Windows, and a website defacement is not the same as an OS exploit. There may be some overlap, but it's very far from an exact match.

        I thought we had educated all the AC trolls that cannot distinguish between the OS and the applications running on the OS.

        1. Fibbles

          Re: Security??? @AC

          I thought we had educated all the AC trolls that cannot distinguish between the OS and the applications running on the OS.

          Education is pointless when they're paid to post the same FUD over and over again.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Security??? @ Peter Gathercole

          "I thought we had educated all the AC trolls that cannot distinguish between the OS and the applications running on the OS."

          We need to educate Microsoft to stop embedding code that belongs on the user side deep in the OS whenever they see an opportunity to shaft the competition. Sometimes the result is applications so tightly coupled to the OS there's not much point distinguishing where the exploit is.

          1. P. Lee Silver badge

            Re: Security??? @ Peter Gathercole

            Not sure why you got downvoted at all, never mind twice.

            I'm not sure why anyone cares, MS seem to be degrading RT to a curiosity. They could give this away for free. Its never going to a platform for Office, which is MS' cash cow. Windows users want to see a GUI. Like unaccelerated X on a Pi, its going to be disappointing, which means the main interest will be from command-line / server people. A home-based AD controller perhaps? That might be useful, if it could *do* domains. I don't see the point of a command-line phone/tablet OS.

        3. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Security??? @AC

          "but the code that delivers the web site is not Linux in the same way that IIS is not Windows"

          Last time I installed Apache, it came included with a Linux distribution in the exact same way that IIS is included with Windows....

          1. Peter Gathercole Silver badge

            Re: Security??? @AC re Apache and IIS

            I think that you are deliberately blurring the distinction between an operating system and an application in a repository, particularly in the Open Source world.

            Just because something appears in the repository for a particular OS does not mean that it forms part of the operating system! If it did, then you could imply, by applying reductio ad absurdum, that everything in the Apple App store or Google Play is part of IOS or Android respectively.

            What Redhat, Cannonical, SuSE, Debian et. al. do when creating a repository is take a package which has an open or permissive licence, and compile it to run on their distribution. They take ownership of the port and packaging, but pass any security, functionality or performance problems upstream to the package owner. And in some parts of the repositories, there are community maintained packages where the Distro maintainer does even less!

            So in the case of Apache, problems that have nothing to do with the build process will be passed to the Apache Software Foundation, not owned by the Distro organisation.

            You were correct in pointing out that my analogy with IIS was actually not a good one though, because with IIS, the owning organisation is the same as the owner of the OS.

            I don't think that was your intention, however!

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Security??? @AC re Apache and IIS

              "Just because something appears in the repository for a particular OS does not mean that it forms part of the operating system! "

              How about if it's on the DVD? The default install?

              1. Peter Gathercole Silver badge

                Re: Security??? @AC re Apache and IIS @AC again

                Plain and simply, no it doesn't.

                Same issue. The CD/DVD is just a local extract of the repository. And I'm not too sure how many distros have Apache on the install CD/DVD. Desktop releases of Ubuntu don't.

                To put this in context, LibreOffice is on most distro media, and that is not part of Linux. Similarly Firefox.

                You've still not understood what Open Software is about.

      2. I don't have a handle

        Re: Security???

        "You are out of date. Windows is a long way ahead of Linux there. Just look at website defacement stats and then divide by market share. You are far more likely to be compromised these days running a Linux server stack than a Windows one."

        That actually made me laugh: "Just look at website defacement stats and then divide by market share".

        I can't decide if you are a shill, a comedian or just unbelievably naive. (Hopefully you were aiming for comedy).

      3. sisk Silver badge

        Re: Security???

        Just look at website defacement stats and then divide by market share. You are far more likely to be compromised these days running a Linux server stack than a Windows one.

        And here I thought that particular breed of ignorance was extinct in this day and age. Here's an education: OS and even web server software are pretty much non-issues for website defacement. Every major web server software, be it IIS, Apache, NGinix, or any of the various Java based servers (ie Tomcat) can be locked down so tight that the NSA would be jealous of their security.

        When you actually dig into the statistics and look at how the attacks were accomplished it turns out that almost all of them came in either through a misconfiguration or through SQL injection. In other words bad administrators and web developers are to blame, not the OS or application.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Security???

          When you actually dig into the statistics and look at how the attacks were accomplished it turns out that almost all of them came in either through a misconfiguration or through SQL injection"

          A quick search shows that you are wrong. Most of them were Linux OS compromises. See www.zone-h.org/news/id/4737

          1. Androgynous Cupboard Silver badge

            Re: Security???

            A quick search shows that you are wrong. Most of them were Linux OS compromises. See www.zone-h.org/news/id/4737

            That's a four-year-old article. Got any recent truthiness to cite?

            1. sisk Silver badge

              Re: Security???

              A quick search shows that you are wrong. Most of them were Linux OS compromises. See www.zone-h.org/news/id/4737

              Perhaps you should read the article in its entirety. And I quote...

              We were talk­ing about local ker­nel exploits, but the first prob­lem is in the web­site code.

              From the results one out­come is clear – code devel­oper teams and web­server admins are still liv­ing in two dis­tinct worlds. And if some­thing is not work­ing prop­erly, their answer is that this is most likely the other side’s fault. While this “fight” con­tin­ues, the deface­ment count still grows up.

              And also, as Androgynous Cupboard pointed out, that article is very out of date. It's a 4 year old article discussing a Linux kernel vulnerability from 7 years ago.

            2. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Security???

              Not only is that article four years old and its statistics largely irrelevant to applications other than web servers, it admits that the most used exploit in question came from a bug that had been fixed some years previously but accidentally re-introduced before rapidly being corrected again.

              Not mentioned in the article was that the error in question was exposed when you ran a particular 32bit Linux app under a 64bit Linux OS.

              Now, I don't know about you, but I'm hoping that the chances of that particular set of circumstances occurring again ought to be small.

              Whereas at least one other OS vendor still seems to be shipping code that has been broken for years, despite multiple claims of thorough code reviews, judging by the number of patches that go back to XP and occasionally beyond.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: Security???

                "Not only is that article four years old and its statistics largely irrelevant to applications other than web servers, it admits that the most used exploit in question came from a bug that had been fixed some years previously but accidentally re-introduced before rapidly being corrected again."

                But it still resulted in millions of websites being compromised. Just like the number of recent critical Linux vulnerabilities have probably also resulted in...

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: Security???

                  "But it still resulted in millions of websites being compromised. "

                  It certainly did when there was a brief reversion that reintroduced the bug and a rash of defacements having fun.

                  Whereas the recently-fixed MS bugs that go back unfixed as far as XP (e.g. JPG handling, again?) have been out there unfixed for how long? Affecting

            3. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Security???

              "That's a four-year-old article. Got any recent truthiness to cite?"

              Does being 4 years old make it any less truthful? Got any more recent anything to cite?

          2. Peter Gathercole Silver badge

            Re: Security??? @AC re Linux OS compromises

            The cited defect in the Linux kernel is actually a privilege escalation issue.

            Now I know that I don't know the full details of the way that this was used, but I would suspect that it is not a remote vulnerability. Looking at it, it appears that in order to exploit it, you need to be able to have a local user session on the system, which implies that the first point of security has already been breached. Looking at the stats, this is probably because of lax user or password administration or issues with input validation of data in web pages.

            Indeed, the quoted stats. appear to show that the highest vector for attack is a file inclusion, with the second highest being an attack against the administrator like password stealing or sniffing.

            So if web site owners tightened up their code ad administration practices, even if the bug still existed, it would not be nearly as important.

            Anyway, the public aspects of the Zone-H web site appear to show that it is not frequently maintained (only two news items in 2014), although there may be more information to logged in users, so it's probably not that creditable source of information.

      4. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Security???

        "Just look at website defacement stats"

        You're not still quoting that stupid blogpost from some bloke who turns out to be MS Director of Trusted Computing or something like that are you?

        Sorry, can't remember the details right now, can't find sufficiently unique keywords to find my posts on here about it either. Reminders welcome.

        Anyway, amazing though it may seem, there is actually more to computing than running a webserver.

    2. dogged

      Re: Security???

      > Ok, admittedly MS has made huge strides on improving their security, but they're a long ways from security being a reason that you choose Windows.

      It's getting close though and you have to admit that Windows has the largest attack surface. How many billion Windows installs are out there? That anyone can install software on (without a walled garden)?

      The most secure OS is probably some dodgy port of AmigaOS used by four people in a lab somewhere but I thought we'd all agreed that security via obscurity was a stupid idea.

      1. Kevin Fairhurst

        Re: Security???

        It *was* the most secure... but someone wanted to play a copied version of SWOS, and they're infected with a bootloader now :(

  6. Ragequit
    Joke

    Security...

    Well in this case maybe he's right. After windows 10 is loaded there won't be enough ram left to load the latest malware platform...

    1. Dan 55 Silver badge
      Joke

      Re: Security...

      You mean there won't be enough RAM left to load the malware, the latest malware platform is Windows 10. See, MS have finally made Windows secure at last by removing the memory.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Security...

      "After windows 10 is loaded there won't be enough ram left to load the latest malware platform..."

      If it's anything like Windows Phone compared to Android, then the Windows version should need less RAM and run faster.

  7. adnim Silver badge
    Linux

    Not a problem

    As long as one has the freedom to remove Win 10. Why all the bitchin'?

    MS lubbers can lube for the shafting, whilst those with a clue will do whatever they want.

    Linux aint OS to the gods, it's an OS for those with a clue..... Perhaps El Reg should change the mouse over description.

    1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Re: Not a problem

      >As long as one has the freedom to remove Win 10. Why all the bitchin'?

      The raspberryPi was aimed at schools.

      It was aimed at fixing the problem that CS in schools is now click on icon in Word to bold a word.

      It was aimed at the; it is a offense to touch the school PCs without explicit permission, it is a violation of the schools service contract to do anything on the PCs not aligned with keystage 2 subsection 3 para 4 of the people's central curriculum.

      So Microsoft make a few phone calls to their friends in government to "develop enhanced curriculum support" - and all those Pi in schools are suddenly limited to running Internet Explorer to access Office365 to click on an icon in Word ....

      1. adnim Silver badge

        @YAAC Re: Not a problem

        I didn't think that all Rpis would come with Win 10 as standard. Is this the case?

        If so then Rpi is just a crock.. don't educate.. enslave.

        Like some bank ads (don't see enough ads to remember which bank) for computer programming.... Drag and drop this icon here and type plain English into this box... Congratz you are now a computer programmer.

        If the teachers haven't a clue.... And they won't have in a generation or two because they will be brought up on this bullshit, neither will the kids..

        I can't code in assembler. Too much thinking and hard work, maybe I ain't smart enough.

        Anything less than assembler/machine code is bending to another's will. It's yet another layer of abstraction from what is really happening. Another layer of wool over their eyes.

        Unfortunately those that are responsible for the curriculum and the education of our children haven't a clue now let alone in a generation or two.

        1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

          Re: @YAAC Not a problem

          The point of the RPi was to get back to the BBC micro/Sinclair days when kids (who frequently knew more than the CS teachers) could play with the machines, have machines at home, discover things for themselves, break things and above all LEARN.

          Now a combination of factors has led to useless IT lessons with students basically being told to fear the locked down Windows PCs and doing anything outside the lesson plan is at best a fail and worse cyber-terrorism.

          Not all the kids will program in assembler or rewrite the kernel, but some will.

        2. wallaby

          Re: @YAAC Not a problem

          "don't educate.. enslave"

          PMSL

          the world CHOOSES Windows for 2 main reasons,

          1) most people dont care how a computer works they just want to use it.

          2) for me its mainly because of the vocal minions in the Linux community - there is nothing clever in making something complicated just because you can - click a button or type lines of case sensitive code to make something happen - give me the button every time.

          The Linux community are the most unwelcoming arrogant bunch I have ever come across - I had a need to run Win 95 on a linux platform as a VM, I asked for help online and all I got was "why the hell would anyone...... M$ *&$!"$!"%" - BECAUSE I WANT OR NEED TO THATS WHY !!!!

          I ask a question on an MS forum and (apart from the ones who always state the obvious) I usually have a sensible reply in a short time.

          I bought a Pi because I wanted to learn, instead I got something that didnt work out of the box without me modifying my config file in my Win 7 laptop first. A platform that updates itself before it will let me in, not download the files in the background and then apply on reboot, and a platform that has commands that are so unforgiving they have to be in the right case, in the right place etc. etc.

          You want people to embrace Linux - try getting of the high horses and actually help people, if your product is that good constant badmouthing the opposition wont mean a damn - and boy do I mean constant.

          Ive been into PC's since the first ones hit desks early 80's, Ive always tried to make life easier for the people I support, and not once in all that time have I derided them for asking a question - cant say the same about every question Ive asked about Linux.

          1. Pookietoo
            FAIL

            Re: Ive been into PC's since the first ones hit desks early 80's

            You don't like Linux because it's not like DOS, and you can't find the apostrophe key.

          2. Richard Plinston Silver badge

            Re: @YAAC Not a problem

            > a platform that has commands that are so unforgiving they have to be in the right case, in the right place

            It sounds like you wouldn't cope with modern computer languages either. You should stick to COBOL - that is case insensitive, though you do have to put stuff in the right place (such as columns 7, 8 and 12 and not beyond 72).

          3. JamesTQuirk

            Re: @YAAC Not a problem

            Is it because a Linux user READ's the MANUAL ..... While windows users wait for a icon or IT to show them ? If U Had installed WINE in your linux it would run Win95 Software, no real need for original, really, but I do keep a VM of it, myself, Cause I am still maintaining software & machines I sold in 80's & 90"s ..

            I have 1 who is still using SuperBase on Commodore 64, it's what he knows, & he refuses to change, and maybe that's the problem .... People stuck in their ways, refusing to learn NEW things, or spend more money on equipment ....

            Linux Users on "High Horses", OMG, maybe it's the maniacs who keep throwing money @ MS & MaCrapple to solve problems by building a huge OS to cover EVERY possible user need, while Linux user's who just install what they need ... We don't need a 3d dancing paperclip with tits to keep us company while CONTINOUSLY update, scan for virus&malware, we know were our files are, we know what we are doing, we do not need Microsoft trying to own our hardware by it's OS ...

        3. d3vy

          Re: @YAAC Not a problem

          Its Barclays.

          And actually if you tried what they are suggesting rather than bashing it because *you* dont understand it then you would know that what its teaching kids is how programs are structured - what a loop is, what logic statements are, how events work - without requiring the kids (6-7 year olds) to remember the syntax.

          Whats easier for a 7 year old - the orange block with a loop arrow in it and a box to type a number or drop a variable block - or :

          for (int i = 0; i < 10; i++){}

          The idea isnt to teach kids to program - its to get them interested, to give them the knowledge that underlies programming that they can then take forward. Same as maths or any other subject, they are taught the basics, the building blocks.. a foundation for further learning.

    2. Richard Plinston Silver badge

      Re: Not a problem

      > As long as one has the freedom to remove Win 10. Why all the bitchin'?

      Current Windows RT (Windows on ARM) devices are _required_ to be UEFI locked without the option to unlock them.

      1. Cynic_999 Silver badge

        Re: Not a problem

        Surely the UEFI is on the SD card? So you just replace the SD card with one loaded with whatever OS you like.

        1. Richard Plinston Silver badge

          Re: Not a problem

          > Surely the UEFI is on the SD card? So you just replace the SD card with one loaded with whatever OS you like.

          On current computers the UEFI is in ROM and switching the disk does not replace it. That does not mean the the Pi will implement UEFI in ROM, nor that they will make it locked.

          Apparently a cut-down version of Windows already runs on the Galileo Board in some crippled way (no display). Microsoft have said that on the Pi it will be 'similar to other boards'.

          1. werdsmith Silver badge

            Re: Not a problem

            A lot of guessing going on here.

            1. James Hughes 1

              Re: Not a problem

              Indeed. There isn't any way of embedding a boot loader on Pi, it just doesn't work like that.

              Pi's come with NOTHING installed. You then install what OS you want on an SD card. There is no possibility of MS lock in here.

        2. Peter Gathercole Silver badge

          Re: Not a problem @Cynic

          UEFI is a BIOS replacement. It will always be in the ROM/Flash memory as a first stage bootstrap.

          If you have the part of UEFI hard-coded so that only allows booting of a cryptographically signed OS from the media (and this is what WindowsRT mandated, it would not boot if UEFI was configured to be more relaxed), then you've got a chicken-and-egg situation where you can't break in to run another OS.

          Microsoft insisted that WindowsRT systems were locked down like this because they did not want someone buying a Surface, and showing how well Android would run on the rather nice hardware.

          As discussed before on these forums, the consensus is that one of the distro owners should provide a UEFI complient cryptographically signed Grub that could be booted to break the straight-jacket that was being planned by the Trusted Computing Group, or whatever it was last called.

          A locked UEFI on a RiPi would be a complete disaster.

    3. d3vy

      Re: Not a problem

      "As long as one has the freedom to remove Win 10. Why all the bitchin'?"

      Remove it from what exactly? RPis dont come with an OS... Christ, they dont even come with the memory card required to load the os onto...

      So what people are complaining about is being given the choice to run windows if they want to...

      Those bastards at microsoft... letting me choose an operating system for my hardware...

      1. Richard Plinston Silver badge

        Re: Not a problem

        > So what people are complaining about is being given the choice to run windows if they want to...

        The RPi does not 'run Windows' in any way that would be generally understood. There is no 'launcher', no menu, no OS screen. What MS supply is the ability to run a [single] 'Universal app' on RPi as long as you have a full Windows 10 PC to develop that on and load it into the RPi.

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Ok, as long as I can write services, I can access it using RDP, and I dont have to put everything through as a Windows Store apps, I might be interested.

  9. Stoke the atom furnaces

    Windows 10.

    When you look at the dark side, careful you must be... for the dark side looks back.

  10. Teiwaz Silver badge

    You're a real PC if you run Windows.

    In my experience a depressingly common perception among many...

    Good for the Raspberry, they'll see an increase in Sales provided they sell an option to pre-install (and please please make it only an option).

    Subsequently an increase in customer complaints unless MS actually ensures their Arm variety can do everything their regular version can, 'cause most of the 'real pc = windows' customers won't understand why they can't do X, install X or run X when their laptop can.

    1. James Hughes 1

      Re: You're a real PC if you run Windows.

      AIUI, this Win10 is the IoT version, so command line kernel stuff only, no desktop.

      But I'll find out more this evening...!!

      1. Teiwaz Silver badge

        Re: You're a real PC if you run Windows.

        Sounds like some sort of zen. Windows without windows.

        Sounds fine for the IoT applications, the putterers and tinkerers if this is the case, but it's be a bit hardcore (no, not that kind) for the cherished offspring of Mr & Mrs 'real PCs run windows' should they decide to fastrack their childs IT education with one. They'll not windwoo many outside industry with that.

        The Penguin is laughing now, "see this is why the ui is separate from the OS."

        1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

          Re: You're a real PC if you run Windows.

          If it is just the .Net Compact Framework then there is very little point, I can do that on an Netduino already with 1 core and 256Mb of memory.

          If they needed quad core and 1Gb it has to be a decent tablet-esque version with a display, network keyboard etc etc - even if it can't host visual studio 2013.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        @James Hughes 1 - Re: You're a real PC if you run Windows.

        And no Secure Boot ?

      3. dajames Silver badge

        Re: You're a real PC if you run Windows.

        AIUI, this Win10 is the IoT version, so command line kernel stuff only, no desktop.

        No, AIUI it will be graphical ... but probably Metro and store apps rather than a desktop.

        As it says in the article:

        Although the desktop might not be available, the Windows build will support visual applications. “It is a headed device, HDMI primarily at the moment but then LCD panels in due course".

        So, still not really Windows as most users understand it, then.

  11. thx1138v2

    What's in it for MS?

    They get all of those young hearts and minds. Remember that the Pi was originally developed to get school children interested in computing and thus developed contacts in the schools. So MS gets to take advantage of those contacts.

    Back in the day, Apple was giving their early versions to schools free of charge to get the youngsters familiar with their system before they ever got into the working world where corporate computing was happening. This is, essentially, the same marketing technique on the Pi.

    "The pitch from Microsoft is they’ve got great tooling to get it started..." Sure and a great marketing opportunity with the marketing channel already opened up by the Pi developers. And the opportunity to get the kids started on using their development tools.

  12. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Although the desktop might not be available

    All you need to know right there. This isn't Windows 10, it's Windows 10 kernel, and a huge publicity stunt....

    Even Windows 10 on the desktop is getting downgraded. I wonder how many Windows 7 upgraders will be miffed about the loss of Aero....

  13. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Trying to keep Windows relevant. The ARM version being especially unpopular.

  14. sorry, what?
    WTF?

    "There is nothing to touch Visual Studio"

    #sigh# I do wish people would stop saying this sort of thing. As an IDE it is so last century. Try something that actually does a good job of supporting modern software development, like IntelliJ IDEA. Then you'll see that VS is really old hat.

    1. Richard 12 Silver badge

      Re: "There is nothing to touch Visual Studio"

      Qt Creator is also considerably better than Visual Studio.

      Infinitely better if you want to go cross-platform, whether Qt or pure C++. (Kits are awesome)

      The MS C++ compiler is great for Windows, but only Windows.

      Pretty much every developer knows that Windows is the wrong OS for IoT - too expensive in terms of hardware, development tools and per-unit licence costs.

      Presumably this is MS' attempt to change that, but unless they become free they will fail.

      IoT is low margin, high volume. That's the point!

      I can do embedded Linux and RTX development for the cost of the hardware alone, and while I'm happy to pay extra for developer support, the key feature is that the resulting product has a zero cost licence.

      For a device that has a total hardware cost of under $30, a $50 licence is laughable, and even $5 is unrealistic.

      Enclosure or Windows? I pick enclosure.

  15. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    " I’ve drunk an enormous amount of Kool-Aid by the sounds of it"

    Hmm yes.

    Anyways, if Microsoft stick to treating the Pi as a device to port embedded applications to only, and Eben Upton makes damned sure they stay well away from the key reason he claims for starting the Pi - kick-starting proper CS training in schools - then maybe he hasn't made a big mistake.

  16. Nigel 9

    Wow..... just look at all the hate.

    "But why bother with Windows? What can you do that you cannot do with Linux?"

    If the Author had written this the other way around in a different article, he would have been subject to a torrent of hate in the comments.

    For years, Linux supporters (of which I'm one) have argued that people should be given the ability to *choose* what they put on their hardware. However, what many of them seem to interpret that as "*I should be able to put Linux on this!"

    Blogs, articles and forums have been full of penguin-heads for years shouting that they had successfully installed their preferred flavour of Linux on phones, NAS devices, Chromebooks (or laptops with none-supported drivers).... All in the name of choice and doing what *they* wanted.

    Apparently (judging by the comments), fans of the Windows OS aren't allowed the same thing.

    This is a major software company committing support for their future OS on a popular learning platform - In no way is this a bad thing, so please pick your dummies up from the floor.

    1. adnim Silver badge
      Mushroom

      Re: Wow..... just look at all the hate.

      "This is a major software company committing support for their future OS on a popular learning platform - In no way is this a bad thing"

      Are you sure? This is a multinational corporation with little to no altruistic tendencies trying to ensure it remains mainstream and the dominate force in the desktop market place. And now the desktop market place is waning with mobile devices and the IoT in ascendancy MS is running scared... MS is giving Win 10 away for free because in the light of the free alternatives available, that is really all it is worth.

      I look forward to the demise of Microsoft. During my career I had to support and fix their bug ridden proprietary crap for 20 years and they wanted to be paid to fix broken ffs!. What a scam. Yes, I do feel hate toward MS... However It isn't unfounded. I am not vindictive or nasty I just do as I am done to.

      1. cambsukguy

        Re: Wow..... just look at all the hate.

        > I am not vindictive or nasty I just do as I am done to

        That is vindictive and nasty as well as vengeful.

        Perhaps more along the lines of "treating people as you would wish to be treated" would be better.

        1. sisk Silver badge

          Re: Wow..... just look at all the hate.

          Meh, run what you want. As I've often mentioned I've a habit of telling people who shouldn't be running Linux (gamers, students, and the terminally technophobic) to stick with Windows.

          But when it comes to Windows on RasPi though I find myself scratching my head and wondering why anyone would do that. Low power machines like this are one of the biggest areas where Linux really shines as well as one of the worst areas where Windows historically falls down. It's not hate so much as confusion.

        2. DropBear Silver badge
          Devil

          Re: Wow..... just look at all the hate.

          Perhaps more along the lines of "treating people as you would wish to be treated" would be better.

          You're welcome to keep turning the other cheek and be eternally pummelled. Me, I see nothing wrong in treating one exactly as badly as he/she/it treated me as long as I'm fairly sure it was no accident. Don't get mad - get even, and all that jazz.

      2. fajensen Silver badge
        Pint

        Re: Wow..... just look at all the hate.

        During my career I had to support and fix their bug ridden proprietary crap for 20 years and they wanted to be paid to fix broken ffs!.

        What is so bad about that? Supposedly someone paid you to "shovel the manure off their front porch" which presumably kept a roof over your head, the heating on and a healthy level of beer in the fridge?

        Sometimes, I think that a good part of why Windows still exists is because it creates a thriving eco-system of people and businesses working on palliative cures for it's brokenness.

        Systems that are "too good" or even perfect, will also be sterile since these systems are self-sufficient and do not require humans to perform any function. This is what the "rise of the machines" means in practice, the machines evolving faster than the human parasites can adapt to, thereby leaving the majority without any means of making a living by participating in the economy.

        IOW: The shitty-ness of Windows is also what is good about it! If it was perfect, it would be useful only to microsoft.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      @Nigel 9 - Re: Wow..... just look at all the hate.

      Windows doesn't have fans! It's like the belly button, everybody gets one either they want it or not so it is extremely popular for this reason.

    3. Teiwaz Silver badge

      Re: Wow..... just look at all the hate.

      (Error: hate not found) (apart from adnim)

      Where do you see comments forbidding installation or use of Windows?

      Disbelief why any would chose to, yes.

      Questions as to what form Win10 might take, yes

      Questions as to any underhand motives, yes, understandable given their track record

      The occassional troll, probably

      The occasional anonymous coward, inevitably

      Using underhand tactics to prevent installation of competing alternatives to their products has been the purview of that particular 'major software company' for a number of years, they might have turned over a new leaf, and we might forgive, but we won't forget quickly, but obviously you have.

    4. tom dial Silver badge

      Re: Wow..... just look at all the hate.

      On interpreting freedom to install an OS of their choice as "*I should be able to put Linux on this!": What manufacturer requires (or did until just now, maybe) to allow its OS to be installed only on ARM hardware locked down to prevent installation of any other OS?

      Have Microsoft committed to putting Windows on a Pi 2 with an unrestricted boot loader? Neither of the two applicable Reg articles indicates that (or, to be fair, the contrary).

      Unless they are abandoning the locked bootloader for Raspberry Pi 2, they are not "a major software company committing support for their future OS on a popular learning platform", they are monopolists in one domain trying to extend their monopoly control to another, and any hate on them is entirely justified.

    5. BitDr

      Re: Wow..... just look at all the hate.

      The trouble is that it's not the fans of the WIndows OS that are doing the work, it's Microsoft.

      The Windows OS can't be rebuilt by it's fans to run on new or unusual hardware because the fans don't have access to the source, making it impossible for them to perform the task. If they had the source then they would also be in violation of the EULA, which is a whole other problem for them.

  17. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

    As far as I can see from the article Windows isn't going to be a pre-load, it's going to have to be installed. When Windows RC was launched it was conditional on manufacturers installing it on ARM hardware that they wouldn't allow other OSs to be installed. Is this now a dead letter and if so will it then be possible to install other OSs on ARM-based Windows 10 kit?

    1. werdsmith Silver badge

      A Pi OS loads from an SD card.

      Pi Suppliers will offer pre-loaded SD cards to folk who are not too keen on doing their own.

      Most other users download an image and writes it to the SD card, which the Pi then boots from.

      The rest of the users roll their own.

      Windows 10 IoT is going to be one of those options. Not Windows RT, not Windows 10 Home Professional Premium Discount Poundland Pedigree Chum Edition.

      Just IoT as an option, which will run some kind of cut down GUI shell and allow users to side-load apps that have been developed using VS on x64 and cross-built for ARM IoT Win10.

      Nobody is trying to kill your dog or eat your children.

      Calm down.

  18. W. Anderson

    Obviously Mr. Upton has received considerable monies from Microsoft in this Windows 10 to Rasberry Pi 2 project.

    However he goes too far by stating that Microsoft Azure and Security are the strongest (in the industry) ever!! How patronizing and proven false is that when one of the premier and respected Cloud Computing research and analysis organizations reported in January 2015 that Azure had "by far" the most outages - some by hacking - in 2014 than any other major Cloud Computing vendor.

    It seem that many technology companies and leading technologists are quite willing and content in this new era to prostitute themselves and their company's mission just for gobs of money and more notoriety, even when there is a distinct and direct conflict with the original and long term goals and visions, particularly if Free/Open Source Software (FOSS) was a critical and integral component of the project.

    1. James Hughes 1

      The Raspberry Pi Foundation have received no money from MS, it's entirely MS's doing to port their OS to the Pi.

      They have had a bit of tech support from the PF, but nothing extensive, and nothing paid for.

      I'm not qualified to talk about the security side of things.

  19. Andus McCoatover
    Pint

    "...it was a conversation in a bar.."

    IIRC, similarly was Arduino conceived. If I'm right, the name "Arduino" is the Italian coffee shop where the folks drew on the ubquitius 'fag.packets' on.

    Pint, because the fruit machine at my local bar spewed out enough money for me to buy one today.

  20. DougS Silver badge

    32 bit Windows 10?

    I thought Microsoft was dumping 32 bit systems with Windows 10, but I guess that's just for x86?

  21. Andus McCoatover
    Windows

    Dunno, folks....

    ..I'm gonna 'suck-it-and-see'. In a commercial environment, not some wannabee bedroom masturbators den.

    Give it a go. If iWindows-10 goes tits-up, I've lost only my time - I won't experiment in company time. We're broke already.

  22. Nathan 6

    What about Python and Java?

    Giving that Python and JDK are some of the more popular platforms for hacking the RPi, I don't see any mention of windows 10 for RPi shipping with those. Granted anyone can port those platforms over, but why when you can just use Raspbian or what ever.

  23. FuzzyTheBear

    New Pi

    New Pi , Now with NSA and other related outfits backdoors and trojans ..

    Need i say more ? Great .. < drums desk > Just great.

    1. jaywin

      Re: New Pi

      > New Pi , Now with NSA and other related outfits backdoors and trojans ..

      Only if you put the μSD card in labelled "Windows". You do realise that action is voluntary, right?

      1. Will Godfrey Silver badge
        Unhappy

        Re: New Pi

        ... for now.

  24. Rol Silver badge

    When the music died

    "At what point did you loose your desire to write programs?"

    "Well, I never did loose the desire, it was taken away from me"

    "Please explain"

    "Well I used to write programs on CBM Pets, Dragons, BBC's and ZX80/81's, but then I bought a PC running Windows 98 and for the life of me, it just wasn't obvious where I could merrily start banging in some code."

    "You do realise there exists a wealth of Microsoft software out there which would enable you to code in a multitude of languages"

    "Well, yes I do now, but back then I expected it to be included in the OS as it was in every other OS I had encountered thus far. The idea I had to get my wallet out again to buy what I assumed was already in their didn't occur to me."

    "So what's your problem now?"

    "The very idea that Microsoft, the company that sank a generation of would be coders, is about to team up with Rasberry Pi, the flagship device, that is kickstarting a new generation of coders, it's like celebrating your birthday in the local abortionists clinic. It just feels wrong"

    "Perhaps MS has seen the light?"

    "Yeah! Here, try another pig wing they're delicious"

    1. Rol Silver badge

      Re: When the music died

      lose lose lose lose lose lose lose lose lose lose lose lose lose lose lose lose lose lose lose lose lose lose

      lose lose lose lose lose lose lose lose lose lose lose lose lose lose lose lose lose lose lose lose lose lose

      lose lose lose lose lose lose lose lose lose lose lose lose lose lose lose lose lose lose lose lose lose lose

      Not quite one hundred times, but I think you should know I am also flagellating myself.

    2. Cynic_999 Silver badge

      Re: When the music died

      The first PC I ever used (this was pre-Internet) ran DOS on a monochrome VDU and had MASM and its associated linker, as well as "debug" included as standard. I'm pretty certain that MASM came with Win98 as well, but if not I'm quite certain it could have been downloaded for free from many bulletin boards or Compuserve. Come to think of it, my Win98 machine came with a Basic interpreter as well (called "basic.exe" IIRC). OTOH I had to purchase an editor and Z80 assembler for my Spectrum (on a cassette tape of course) in order to program my Sinclair Spectrum in anything other than its own flavour of Basic (except for hand-assembling and entering the program in hex, of course).

      There's also the point that the ZX80 etc. might have allowed you to write a program straight out the box - but that's about *all* you could do with those computers - any useful applications that you did not or could not write yourself had to be purchased separately.

    3. david 12 Bronze badge

      Re: When the music died

      >"Well, yes I do now, but back then I expected it to be included in the OS

      > as it was in every other OS I had encountered thus far. The idea I had to

      > get my wallet out again to buy what I assumed was already in their didn't

      > occur to me."

      It didn't ocour to me either. Fortunately, the free tools MS and others provided allowed me to continue programming as I had before, on a series of main frame, mini, & micro computers.

      I take it you didn't actually try very hard: what I can't tell from here is if you even actually owned a copy of Win 3.x and Win 98, or if you are just making it up.

      1. Rol Silver badge

        Re: When the music died

        I had already got the bug to code, as I was fortunate to have had access to many machines that put me straight into a coding environment at the push of the power switch.

        MS on the other hand, did little to encourage coding straight out of the box and made it a quite obscure route in for newbies.

    4. jbuk1

      Re: When the music died

      Let all forget that Windows 95 still had BASIC installed for command line programming and that you could compile assembler into 16 bit COM files from Debug.

      No it had no program ability at all apparently.

  25. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    MS: Got to keep/get Linux out of Education space

    Simples.

  26. linicks
    WTF?

    Slackware rules!

    I can't imagine MS stuff on this. I use Slackware on my 3 PI's:

    http://rpi.fatdog.eu/

    The main one runs my local network DNS, DNCP, NTPD and other stuff. The two others I messed about to set up a fish tank cam ( fishpi.linicks.net/. I don't even need to mount the swap file:

    :~# free

    total used free shared buffers cached

    Mem: 494540 140368 354172 0 72588 29480

    -/+ buffers/cache: 38300 456240

    Swap: 0 0 0

    The thing runs easily 'nice':

    Temperature: 43.3 C

    Voltage: 1.20 V

    Min speed: 700 MHz

    Max speed: 850 MHz

    Current speed: 700 MHz

    Governor: ondemand

    Disc space?

    Filesystem Size Used Avail Use% Mounted on

    /dev/mmcblk0p3 6.6G 1.8G 4.5G 29% /

    none 1.0M 36K 988K 4% /var/run

    Next to nothing.

    So, forget Ubuntu, MS and other bloatware crap.

    Try Slackware.

    Now, back to MS stuff. What happens when you add/change new stuff to the gpio pins? Change the camera? Add new boards?

    Phfff. MS on the PI is really PI in the sky.

    1. Anonymous C0ward

      Re: Slackware rules!

      Cool, I'll have to try that.

  27. Henry Wertz 1 Gold badge

    Well... OK

    I'd like to first point out, I think these (alleged) people lining up asking for Windows on Pi, I'd guess in general are expecting *Windows*, not WinRT. I wouldn't be surprised to find out most of these people (if they indeed exist) may not even realize that, for example, their phone and their desktop are running completely different CPU architectures. I know (even as a non-Windows user) that I found it quite disappointing when "Windows for ARM" rapidly devolved from potentially a full copy of Windows with x86 emulation for non-ported software to essentially ".NET subset that runs on a tablet". (Before you think this is pie-in-the-sky, recall Apple ported MacOS from 68k to PowerPC, and PowerPC to Intel, while maintaining this type of compatiblity; and Linux for non-x86 platforms gets you a full desktop, and optional x86 emulation to run any non-ported apps.) That said, having a WinRT 10 BSP (Board Support Package) available certainly can't hurt.

    But... anyway... as long as they don't force-bundle Windows 10 with the Pi or something... fine with me. ARMv7 is a significantly better chip than ARMv6, with significantly better software support. Forget Windows 10, most Linux for ARM ports also require ARMv7 or up... the existing ARMv6 Linux versions and software builds are basically *just* to support the Pi, virtually everything else was using ARMv7 even when the Pi originally shipped. Although perhaps unnecessary (as long as you stay away from Windows), having more RAM can't hurt either since it hasn't increased the price.

    linicks -- They make a slackware for Pi? Damn, that's nice, if I get a Pi that's defeinitely the way I'll go working on it!

    1. This post has been deleted by its author

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Well... OK

      >I'd like to first point out, I think these (alleged) people lining up

      >asking for Windows on Pi, I'd guess in general are expecting

      >*Windows*, not WinRT. I wouldn't be

      Speak for yourself son.

      I'm glad for you that you've got a GUI on your toy *nix workstation: Personally I do mostly embedded and network connected programs.

      1. Teiwaz Silver badge

        Re: Well... OK, A/C

        Good for you on the embedded and network connected programs BTW.

        There's been some debate over whether this Pi on Windows arrangement is only a non-ui job or whether it's to be a Surface RT job. The article refers to 'real pcs runs windows' interest, which (as the ad slogan for the Windows desktop vs. apple campaign) seems to suggest this will include a ui.

        It may well be both an embedded minimalist version and a ui version. I would suggest Microsoft would be wise to cover both bases. Of course, *nix can be booted up into either (cool 'toy' huh?)

        Another option is always good, as long as the manufacturer isn't pushed into exclusively bundling their hardware with non optional copy of any OS.

    3. JamesTQuirk

      Re: Well... OK

      Did they Test it with Windows 10 in Full swing, while scanning 4 virus &or updating @ same time?

      4 Cores for under $50 is good, but things move quick, I am playing with Idea of what u can do with Older Allwinner A80 OctaCores, like Tronsmart Draco AW80 (Meta) Octa-core TV Box, a media Release from Allwiner is here ... http://www.allwinnertech.com/plus/view.php?aid=471

      @ Under $200 for 80 Cores, it seems a better bargain, and it's just 1st of first from NOVEMBER last year, and recently @ around $170 ..

      http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/Mass-Manufactured-OctaCore-ARM-Cortex-A15-A7-Allwinner-A80-Android-4-4-Board/1021496_2015735541.html

      I got my Parrot Drone to Run Linux HAM Radio Libs 4 Comms, Had a Play with Pi, but as always, maybe its TIME to look around ...

    4. werdsmith Silver badge

      Re: Well... OK

      "I'd like to first point out, I think these (alleged) people lining up asking for Windows on Pi, I'd guess in general are expecting *Windows*, not WinRT."

      They will be doubly disappointed then, because they are not getting either.

  28. RumRunner
    Devil

    Noooooooooooooo...

    oooooooooooo!

    Evil. Evil. Evil.

  29. Salts

    Hmmm...

    Quad core 900mhz, 1gb ram, same video core, compatible with RPi 1 and part of the RPi ecosystem; Well I think I need to buy a few, the extra oomph will help me build a nice new low power lab that can run 24/7 and not have to worry too much about the electric bill.

    Windows, don't see the need myself, but also I don't see it harming anything, just more choice for the RPi community.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      @Salts - Re: Hmmm...

      Since when Windows has become a choice ?

      1. James Hughes 1

        Re: @Salts - Hmmm...

        It's a choice on the Pi. You either have it on an SD card, or you....don't....and use Linux/RISCOS/Plan9/BSD instead.

        There will be no 'lock' in - it's simply not possible on a Pi since it doesn't have the required bootloader.

        1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          Re: @Salts - Hmmm...

          And what boots the SD card? It's got a stage 1 boot in ROM on the SoC.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: @Salts - Hmmm...

            "And what boots the SD card? It's got a stage 1 boot in ROM on the SoC."

            Quite. And yet... some clarification would be helpful here.

            Readers might want to have a look at (for example)

            https://thekandyancode.wordpress.com/2013/09/21/how-the-raspberry-pi-boots-up/

            and see what you think; I make no attempt to summarise here.

  30. POSitality

    As an occasional embedded developer...

    ...I welcome this: more choice = good.

    Besides, it makes my life easier. ATM I have to swap between .NET (main line systems) C (small scale Arduino prototypes) and Linux/Python (complex Raspberry Pi prototypes.)

    Just using one toolset and jettisoning Arduino (£10 vs £30? forgetaboutit) happy days!

  31. david 12 Bronze badge

    Red Cool-Aid

    Rasberry of course.

  32. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    LOL

    “We’ve had people queuing up and saying they want Windows, the whole time,” says Upton. “I think there’s a sense that 'you’re a real PC' if you run Windows.”

    Yeah people want a 'real' PC running Windows, so here is the cut down **** RT version that has sold less copies than a Jeffrey Archer novel

    1. John 62

      Re: LOL

      I know I'm citing Wikipedia, but Jeffrey Archer sold 250 million novels. Very few authors have had that kind of success. I'm struggling to find a comparable figure in IT. Maybe someone like John McAfee?

  33. Alan Denman

    Remember Asus and Linux ?

    Yes, Embrace , Extend, Distinguish.

    The bottom line is that this is good for Pi sales. And if it it encourages actual open systems to expand then the means justifies the end.

    I'd suggest cheering on Cyagenmod but the the money grabbers in charge seem to be heading to grab some swag out of the "Embrace , Extend, Distinguish" cash pile.

  34. Mage Silver badge
    FAIL

    Microsoft has a really good clue?

    “Microsoft has a really good clue about cloud integration. There’s a great story about Azure, and about data integration between IoT devices and Azure,” enthuses Upton. “I think they’ve got a pretty compelling security story as well."

    He's been drugged. I never heard anything so daft. I'd not touch Azure with a barge pole.

    I suppose C# on Visual studio is OK, but there are three ways of building GUIs now on Visual Studio and none are quite finished.

    VB6 was good if you didn't program in Basic, and understood which junk to avoid. A nice RAD.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Microsoft has a really good clue?

      " I'd not touch Azure with a barge pole."

      You might not, but the cloud markets as a whole are definitely headed that way - especially in the large enterprise space. Azure is going to be the largest cloud both by OS instances and by revenue soon. Even Apple uses Azure!

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Microsoft has a really good clue?

        "headed [for Azure] ... especially in the large enterprise space."

        Those companies would generally be the ones with dedicated MS account teams and a big MS spend with potential for attractive discounts on overall MS spend if they try Azure out for a while, wouldn't they?

        Whereas companies left largely on their own to choose based on best technical and commercial fit for the business...

        Hmmm....

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Microsoft has a really good clue?

          "Those companies would generally be the ones with dedicated MS account teams and a big MS spend with potential for attractive discounts on overall MS spend if they try Azure out for a while, wouldn't they?"

          Yes, most "large enterprise" companies would be in that position. Or if not, then they should be.

          "Whereas companies left largely on their own to choose based on best technical and commercial fit for the business..."

          Which also tends to be Azure / Office 365 these days instead of AWS / Google apps as used to be the fad.

      2. JamesTQuirk

        Re: Microsoft has a really good clue?

        Really, So after securing your PC /PC's, and backing up valuable company data, you leave it online so "the bad people" have plenty of time to hack it, even if your not online ?

        AZURB !!!!!

  35. razorfishsl

    Thar she blows

    Bloat ware on an underpowered postage stamp.....

    I'd rather be running linux, secure , fast configurable......

    1. werdsmith Silver badge

      Re: Thar she blows

      "I'd rather be running linux, secure , fast configurable......"

      You forgot sanctimonious.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Thar she blows

      "I'd rather be running linux, secure , fast configurable......"

      Actually there were more security holes in just the Linux kernel than in a complete current Windows OS last year. And Windows is miles ahead of Linux in terms of 'fast configuration' both from the GUI tools - and the command line (Powershell).

      1. JamesTQuirk

        Re: Thar she blows

        umm, cause Linux users fix problems, we will to wait 5 years b4 all of LAST YEARS windows holes are found, cause windows users wait 4 somebody else to fix ?

  36. Stevie Silver badge

    Bah!

    Two things occur to me:

    a) The GUI performance of a Raspberry Pi running tailor-made Raspbian is execrable, all but unusable. Given the shoe-horning a Pi requires, how could a terra-bloat GUI be better?

    2) Wouldn't putting Windows on a Raspberry Pi simply be a way of making the device cost the same as a PC to buy?

    Before the screaming and leaping commences, I own two Raspberry Pi model B machines, an original 256 meg one and a spiffy up-memoried 512 meg one. All comments about performance verified by experiment and long nights trying to make the GUI work acceptably.

    1. werdsmith Silver badge

      Re: Bah!

      I love your mixing of numbering your bullet points.

      a) The GUI performance of a Raspberry Pi running tailor-made Raspbian is execrable, all but unusable. Given the shoe-horning a Pi requires, how could a terra-bloat GUI be better?

      The Pi which you have spent so many long nights experimenting with is not the one that Win10 IoT is being prepared for. Yesterday a new 4 core ARM7 1GB Pi was released, but you know that already because it was impossible to miss. And IoT is not supposed to be a primarily GUI OS anyway.

      2) Wouldn't putting Windows on a Raspberry Pi simply be a way of making the device cost the same as a PC to buy?

      Microsoft are giving Windows IoT away free to makers.

      Amazing how many people have just hurled themselves at conclusions based, presumably, on just the headline.

  37. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Microsoft blowing a raspberry* at the British.

    Spectrum - dead

    Acorn/BBC dead (sort of apart from ARM)

    Microsoft - alive, kicking and clawing away from the grave that the NSA have shoved them in.

    Apple - alive and tracking and backing up everything they can.

    Google - alive and tracking everybody, everybody, everybody.

    Anyone who thinks that having a Microsoft OS on the British made Pi is a good thing, either has no idea of computer history (watch the end credits to "Micro Men") or is missing that this is feeding straight into the education of the next generation of computer wiz-kids. It is mass marketing and lockin. Get them when they are very young, and they will be enslaved for life. Microsoft did not get into the position that they are in today by being nice. Every PC maker in effect had to sign an exclusive license deal with them to ship their product, They could ship another OS, or no OS, but they still had to pay Microsoft for a license.

    [In case you never learned cockney rhyming slang, blowing a raspberry comes "raspberry tart" for "fart"]*

  38. John Tserkezis
    Joke

    The last thing I need..

    ...is for my toaster to demand more update downloads before I have a chance to toast my bread.

    Why do I need an internet connected toaster? There's only one reason, because it's cool.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: The last thing I need..

      > Why do I need an internet connected toaster? There's only one reason, because it's cool.

      A cool toaster is as useful as a chocolate teapot. Get one that gets hot.

  39. Chezstar

    I feel a sense of deja-vu coming on...

    1990's:

    Microsoft Exec: "Hey boys, someone figured out how to get Linux onto PC's! Round up the townsfolk, there's a hangin' to be had!"

    2015:

    Linux Evangelists: "Hey, someone took OUR hardware and figured out how to put Windows on it! Round up the townsfolk, there's a hangin' to be had!"

    I have one on order because I have a CHOICE of what to put on my Pi2. Stop trying to foist your ideals, preconceptions and prejudices on me, go build something on YOUR hardware. Bloody hell, it's not that hard to understand.

    Go congratulate Billy because he built a nifty little doodad or geegaw on his Pi2, before you castrate him on your altar made from half finished, hand-etched circuit boards and Linux CD's because he made a choice to do something differently to how you wanted him to.

  40. J J Carter Silver badge

    I can envisage one of these in the cabinet of high-end PC to act as boot device and orchestrate starting up the main system, like on a VAX 11/780.

  41. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    telnet is not secure.

    The IoT demo that goes wrong, where an M$ programmer need to connect via "telnet" says all you need to know about how great M$ is at security. It starts with the mindset of the programmers, if that is wrong your building on a swamp, with no foundation and no drainage.

    http://dev.windows.com/en-us/featured/Windows-Developer-Program-for-IoT

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: telnet is not secure.

      "The IoT demo that goes wrong, where an M$ programmer need to connect via "telnet" says all you need to know about how great M$ is at security."

      You can enable IPSEC if you are concerned about security. I'm sure implementing secure solutions like Powershell remoting is on the to do list. Microsoft's OSs don't natively support legacy options like SSH, so Telnet is probably the only lightweight option without building something new.

  42. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    The future is now

    One can only hope that future Raspberry Pi boards do not come with built in microphones, like GCHQ and the NSA have, allegedly, asked for repeatedly. They were having a major problem getting on to the boards, but now with more CPU and a Gigabyte of RAM and Microsoft's help automatically connecting them to the cloud, that is a thing of the past.

    Big brother has called from 1984 and has asked that everyone get a free camera.

    (no need for "sudo echo 'disable_camera_led=1' >> /boot/config.txt" any more, with M$ on the job)

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