back to article Samsung turns off lights on LEDs worldwide – except in South Korea

Samsung has decided to stop pushing its light emitting diode business outside of South Korea, despite reckoning it would be a growth area a few years ago. Like Philips, Sammy has realised that LED is not, after all, where it’s at, and it will be shutting the unit down overseas. Philips recently announced it would be spinning …

  1. Sporkinum

    LED Bulb price

    I think the cost of the LED bulbs is what kills it. That, and the low output of the more common bulbs. I can get CFLs cheap, that use about the same amount of power. Why should I spend a lot more for LED?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Thumb Up

      Re: LED Bulb price

      "Why should I spend a lot more for LED?"

      A much better light quality for starters and they are dropping in price. Think I paid about £4 for a 9w candle type a few weeks back. Gives a much better light than the 11w CFL ones you tend get for the same purpose.

      1. Mage Silver badge

        much better light quality?

        Unless the CFL is garbage, CFL is HUGELY better colour rendition. LED source is simply too long a wavelength to have the decent mix of phosphors.

        Colour Temperature is NOT Colour Rendition/Quality.

        Also more efficient CFLs have poorer colour than other CFLs, but all kinds are better spectrum that any LED.

        Light diffusion is still an LED issue.

        1. Charles Manning

          Re: much better light quality?

          "LED source is simply too long a wavelength to have the decent mix of phosphors."

          Did you steal a physicists scrabble board?

          LEDs can produce a wider range of wavelengths than the human eye can see. All the way from UV to IR.

          "mix of phosphors"??? WTF does that mean.

          1. DropBear Silver badge
            WTF?

            Re: much better light quality?

            A much better light quality for starters

            Not from where I'm sitting, right now - as long as you're not trying to compare to the absolute cheapest junk, of course. Even though I'm seriously squeamish about "bluish" CFL light, ever since incandescents went out of style I've been using some half-decent warm CFLs in my room, and I have zero problem with their light "quality" (whatever that's supposed to mean - do they have a "bouquet" too?). They're also soldiering on quite nicely so far - I don't expect them to outlast me, and I'm definitely not willing to pay a princely sum for such a (rather dubious) feature either.

          2. Peter Martin

            Re: much better light quality?

            Err LEDs often use phosphors to produce different coloured white light.

            http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light-emitting_diode#Phosphor-based_LEDs

            And LEDs have a fairly narrow band of discrete wavelengths too

          3. Richard 12 Silver badge
            Boffin

            Re: much better light quality?

            No, he's absolutely right that LEDs have too long a wavelength to excite a decent phosphor mix.

            As somebody working the the field of LED illumination (at the middle to absolute top end), I see a lot of the details that most people never would.

            Near-UV LEDs do exist, but they are fairly low efficacy and have short lifetimes. Far-UV is basically unknown outside the lab - the efficacy and lifetime are just too poor to be worth it (yet).

            Almost every "White" LED you can buy is a Blue LED painted with a thin layer of yellow phosphor. The approx. colour temperature (CCT) is mostly decided by the thickness/density of the phosphor layer - thicker layers let less of the blue through - thus higher colour temps are more efficacious, but look worse.

            This obviously makes it really hard to make the same White LED twice!

            There have been some interesting experiments with LED lamps - Philips did a really nice "remote phosphor" lamp (it had external clip-on phosphor-impregnated panels), there was an excellent Red+White that red-shifted while dimming, and earlier in the year narrowband RGB mixes were being tried out, which are much more repeatable than "White" LED as you don't have to control the thickness of the phosphor layer.

            Unfortunately I fear that innovation at the domestic end of the market may be over now that both Samsung and Philips have exited the market.

            Philips were (and still are) absolutely terrible at the high-brightness end (the PL4 is just embarrassingly bad), but they made some really good domestic lamps.

            1. Alan Brown Silver badge

              Re: much better light quality?

              " RGB mixes were being tried out, which are much more repeatable than "White" LED"

              Viewed through a diffraction grating, RGB arrays have 3 colour peaks and not a lot in between. That means that they're great for wall-washing, but lousy for viewing anything needing full-spectrum colour.

              The human eye can cope quite well with redshifting - the fact that we can see "white" under incandescent and candle light is a pretty good demonstration of the fact. Seeing "Black" where a colour shoould be is somewhat more disconcerting.

              (Cheap tip for a diffraction grating - use the shiny surface of a CD)

            2. kiwimuso

              Re: much better light quality?

              @ Richard 12

              Well, guys, all I can say is you are looking in the wrong direction.

              I have no idea of the technicalities of LED lights with phosphors, colour shifts or whatever.

              I had started replacing bulbs with lower wattage types, including halogen, and had just started using LED bulbs. Expensive yes, but if they last as long as they claim, then that will be fine by me.

              All I can say is that I wouldn't have a crap CFL in the house and have just recently replaced 26 down lights, some of which were MR16 halogen (in the kitchen) and the remainder were R80 type.

              They have all been replaced by a 10W dimmable sealed LED unit designed by a company here in NZ, and manufactured in China (of course) Not only are they as MUCH better light output than the MR16, they have a better spread, with not so much of a spotlight effect. They are that bright with a good colour that I have had dimmers installed so that I can get some mood lighting going. No problem with colour - they're just a warm white - about 3500 K I believe.

              They are warrantied for 40,000 hours which my calculations lead me to believe that if I had them on 5 hours every night they should last me 21 years or so.

              SO I guess the reason that Sammy and Philips are no longer interested is that once installed they are unlikely to sell any more bulbs for a great number of years. Diminishing returns with no built in obsolescence. Not a good business model these days.

          4. John Tserkezis

            Re: much better light quality?

            "mix of phosphors"??? WTF does that mean.

            The white LEDs when people say "white LED", is actually a blue led with a phosphor that shifts that blue, into a wider range into the reds and greens resulting in what sorta looks like white.

            But it's not a smooth spectra of light, it has gaps, resulting in some colours not lighting up like they should.

            Using a lighting technology that uses phosphors, can "cheat" a bit and use multiple phosphors, where each one creates a spread of its own, where the result can be fine tuned to some degree to a better "white" or even a colour.

            This is how flourecents, CFLs and modern-day "neons" (that are actually flouros) work.

            The difficulty with LEDs are, since they're monochromatic (one very sharp colour), getting a good spread is harder to do, even with a "mix of phosphors".

            1. Alan Brown Silver badge

              Re: much better light quality?

              "Using a lighting technology that uses phosphors, can "cheat" a bit and use multiple phosphors, where each one creates a spread of its own, where the result can be fine tuned to some degree to a better "white" or even a colour."

              Which is exactly what the newer generations of LEDs do.

              The original yellow-phosphur leds had an awful spectrum, but they're a long way in the past.

        2. Gordon 11

          Re: much better light quality?

          LED source is simply too long a wavelength to have the decent mix of phosphors.
          I have one of these:
          https://www.any-lamp.com/philips-ledbulb-d-12-60w-b22-2700k-a60-master
          in an Anglepoise lamp, and the colour is much better than that from the CFL which I had there previously (and had to remove as my wife complained about it).

        3. Alan Brown Silver badge

          Re: much better light quality?

          "Unless the CFL is garbage, CFL is HUGELY better colour rendition."

          View the available types of both with a diffraction grating and you'll change your tune.

          CFLs emit far too much green and there are usual big holes in the spectrum. I haven't seen a LED with "spotty spectrum" for several years.

    2. Dan 55 Silver badge

      Re: LED Bulb price

      Because CFLs don't last what they used to.

      1. John Tserkezis

        Re: LED Bulb price

        "Because CFLs don't last what they used to."

        Some would argue that they never were worth it. There are constant bleats about "you're not using quality units", which is true, except their cost approaches LEDs, and the plethora of cheap chinese CFLs flooding the shelves doesn't help.

        So even if you account for the elevated cost, you're still better off with LEDs.

    3. Malcolm 1

      Re: LED Bulb price

      LED bulbs seem most immediately useful as a replacement for halogen spots. Although not a like-for-like comparison, I don't think I ever got all three GU10s lit in my old kitchen for more than a day or two (even after changing the light fitting), when we installed kitchen lighting in the new house we went for 6x LED AR111s and they've been happy for over two years. Relative cost of an individual bulb is incomparable of course, but when factoring in the hassle of regular bulb replacement it's far more attractive.

      1. Pet Peeve

        Re: LED Bulb price

        LED spotlights are the best things ever. Like Malcolm, I found that incandescents or CFLs in a can fixture (PAR10) in my kitchen ceiling would cook themselves very quickly, but I've had the same LED bulbs for 2 years now and they are still going strong.

        The color temperature and brightness of modern LED bulbs (CREE, Philips) are indistinguishable from incandescents of equivalent lumen value, and they use less than 10% of the power (and have well over 10 times the lifespan). I think the reason for the selloffs in the biz is because LED bulbs quickly became a commodity item, and they couldn't make premium dollars selling them anymore. Current prices are about half of what I paid for my Kitchen LED bulbs.

      2. DanceMan

        Re: LED Bulb price

        "LED bulbs seem most immediately useful as a replacement for halogen spots."

        I was hoping to use MR16 (12V) bulbs in track lights when the prices dropped. Seemed a good marriage: the track light units already had 12V mounts, and since most LED are lower output they seemed suited to lighting with more smaller output bulbs vs. fewer higher output. But my electrician son-in-law told me to stick to halogens. He said the LED's have a high starting current like an electric motor, and they burn out the transformers. Of course this would not apply to the integrated 120 or 240V screw-in LED's.

        1. danbi

          Re: LED Bulb price

          "He said the LED's have a high starting current like an electric motor"

          The guy might use some learning in what the "LED light" is.

          Any sane LED light would include electronic "transformer" circuit, because the LEDs do not operate at 12V or 220V etc. As with any electronic circuit, you can make the load signature anything you wish, someone just has to design it once, and the Chinese will stamp it in components for cents. Nothing to excited about.

          Of course, there are junk LED lights, that just run the LEDs in series, if you are lucky with a resistor. Even in such cases, the LEDs do not have such load characteristics.

          Cool halogen lights on the other hand, have very high initial currents, because, let's face it, the incandescent lamp is a resistor, when it is dark it has low resistance, when it gets warm, the resistance increases and it eventuLly stabilizes at it's rated power consumption. With time the filament gets thinner and thinner and eventually one day the high initial current gets too much for the already too thin filament wire and the lamp burns out.

          It is also because of these characteristics, that AC lamps wear much faster - there is a simple chematics that can be used to start the lamp at the zero voltage moment - making its life much longer.

          So, if desired and incandescent lamp can be made to last much more, easily (that schematics exist for decades, today they are dirty cheap) - but this will jeopardize the profits..

          1. Stevie Silver badge

            Re: one day the high initial current gets too much

            The thing that kills most incandescent light bulbs is the mechanical shock of being turned on, which is why most such bulbs go "fring!" rather than just refuse to light from the get-go.

            This has been known for years, as has the cure. One simply uses a fader or dimmer to bring the lamp up to brightness. Even the fastest flick of the finger is eons longer in lightbulb years than the surge of a switched voltage and the resulting mechanical shock is much lower.

            Which is why I've had the same 100 watt el-cheapo tungsten floodlight in my upstairs bathroom for about 22 years.

            LED lightbulbs are a boondoggle, sold on the public in a welter of misinformation and half-truths, and much worse for the environment all round than the vacuum and tungsten sort when one starts to dig into what goes on in a chip fabbing plant.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: LED Bulb price

          @ DanceMan

          "But my electrician son-in-law told me to stick to halogens. He said the LED's have a high starting current like an electric motor, and they burn out the transformers. Of course this would not apply to the integrated 120 or 240V screw-in LED's."

          Unfortunately, it seems your daughter married a retard...

        3. Alan Brown Silver badge
          FAIL

          Re: LED Bulb price

          "He said the LED's have a high starting current like an electric motor"

          Wildly incorrect. Incandescents have that property until the filaments are hot.

          " and they burn out the transformers."

          Bullshit.

          LEDs draw 1/10 the current of equivalent halogens, so switchmode-type supplies frequently won't startup (noone's used a "transformer" on Halogen lighting for decades). The answer is to change to a "LED" supply, which ranges in price from 4-12 pounds depending on the supply wattage (these supply proper DC rather than AC too, so the LEDs don't flicker at low settings)

          Your electrician brother in law sounds like a bit of a cowboy.

    4. Charles Manning

      Re: LED Bulb price

      You're right, but not the way you think. The cost of LED lights are killing it for Sammy.

      They were predicting a lucrative LED lightbulb business. The prices have dropped so low, so fast, that it has become a race to the bottom. Even the dirty cheap units work pretty well.

      Samsung has become a premium brand and are wasting their brand and energy chasing the LED lightbulb market.

    5. Jeffrey Nonken Silver badge

      Re: LED Bulb price

      "Why should I spend a lot more for LED?"

      I do because I find that CFLs don't last as long as their marketing claims, contain hazardous materials that require careful handling, and are easy to break. I find that LEDs are both more robust and easier to recycle. Even if I did manage to break one the cleanup would be easier.

      Also, CFLs don't work as well in the cold, though that's not much of a problem here in Sacramento.

      I believe LEDs are a better long-term investment than CFLs.

      If none of those reasons appeal to you, then by all means, stick with CFLs.

    6. Wilseus

      Re: LED Bulb price

      You can't have a CCFL that looks like this:

      http://www.tagra-lighting.co.uk/led-filament-bulbs/6w-led-filament-gls-bulb-e27-b22.html*

      That's what persuaded me to order a couple to see how they perform!

      *Other online retailers are available :)

      1. illiad

        Re: LED Bulb price

        but...... thats amazing!!!!! a LED to warm your 'filament bulb' heart.... :O :D :O

    7. illiad

      Re: LED Bulb price

      have you notice homebase does LED (eff. 60W) for £6.74 ???

      http://www.homebase.co.uk/en/homebaseuk/tcp-gls-led-10w-%2860w%29-bc----1-pack-266521

  2. Extra spicey vindaloo

    Patience.

    Only last year I changed the last lightbulb out for the low energy long lasting types, when they start going I'll be using LED's, but I'm not going to spend lots of money changing perfectly good working bulbs.

    1. Gray

      Re: Patience.

      Ayup ... an upvote for if it ain't broke, don't fix it!

      1. John Tserkezis

        Re: Patience.

        if it ain't broke, don't fix it!

        If it aint' broke, it doesn't have enough features yet.

    2. Richard Jones 1
      Happy

      Re: Patience.

      Since moving into my house in 1992 I have had the odd golf ball lamp fail. For a while I always bought a new pack as I was not sure where the spares were. Then they were tidied up... We have replaced less than 1/3rd of the original lamps. At this rate I now have enough spares to last me until I am well over 100 years old. Still In one of the most used rooms did replace the old type with LEDs to see what they were like - vastly better than CFLs, switch them on yesterday to get horrid light today and they never fitted the lighting unit!

      I am pleased that LEDs are coming down in price, but worried that with too many makers dropping out, both quality and supply will decline.

    3. Peter Mount

      Re: Patience.

      That's exactly what I've done having switched to low energy years ago.

      The most used ones like the spotlights in the kitchen are now leds and tbh are way better than the low energy ones.

    4. Daniel B.

      Re: Patience.

      I also did the phased change, but I had the benefit of having all my apartment to myself. When I moved in, everything was 100w incandescent, so what I did was that I let them burn out, then I started replacing the burnt out bulbs with the remaining ones in the apartment that were in areas I rarely used. Only 'till I was down to 3 bulbs did I go and mass-purchase CFLs to substitute all of my bulbs. Then I just left the 100w ones in the rarely used areas, those were substituted as soon as they burned out which did take a while. My whole apartment went full CFL sometime around 2007.

      LEDs are still too expensive for my taste, so the few CFLs that have burned out have still been replaced by CFLs. I guess it'll be about 3 years before LED bulbs drop down to the affordable range.

    5. Alan Brown Silver badge

      Re: Patience.

      "Only last year I changed the last lightbulb out for the low energy long lasting types"

      I changed out for CFLs over a decade ago. Even name brands (eg: GE) bought at chain stores (B&Q) have had spotty lifespans (6 weeks in one case).

      Now the CFLs are EOL, I'm changing for LEDs. Only the security lights are left to change.

  3. Lee D Silver badge

    I think it's not just "bulb" LED's that are the problem here.

    LED TV's haven't taken off.

    OLED's have died a death.

    And traditional LED's (such as the superbrights, RGB LED's, SMD5050, etc.) are so cheap and mass-market now as to make virtually no profit at all, I imagine.

    I've worked in a few schools that went all-LED for their Sports Hall lighting and things like that. Very impressive and bright, but you don't actually save all that much once you get into the long run, plus the initial cost.

    I think, as a whole, the entire LED segment of electronics is on a spiral to the cheapest possible way to do things, and that doesn't generate a lot of profit for anybody.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      "I think, as a whole, the entire LED segment of electronics is on a spiral to the cheapest possible way to do things, and that doesn't generate a lot of profit for anybody."

      Maybe, but I think a bigger problem is that good quality LEDs last so long that there's no replacement market. Not quite the everlasting lightbulb, but near enough in commercial terms as to make no difference.

      1. Richard 12 Silver badge

        Ledswinger's right.

        LED is being fitted in places like school gyms and streetlamps to reduce the cost of the access needed to replace the lamps, and improve the quality of the light.

        A school sports hall would previously have used high-bay halogens (3000 hours) or CDMs (5-10,000 hours).

        The lamps cost very little, and the CDMs will have been more efficacious, but the access equipment physically needed to go up and change the lamps is very expensive!

        If the LED luminaire saves them 5 to 7 lamp changes, that's a lot of very expensive "man up a picker" hours - and at least 10 years.

        However, the people who made that LED luminaire are only ever going to sell one set of them to that school!

        Heck, the lamps might even outlast the building itself...

      2. hoola Bronze badge

        LEDs, Long Life

        THat is correct, the LED itself will last a long time however what is a major pain is the junk pwoer driver that is incorporate into them. This is that part that always fails and then renders the bulb useless. LED lighting has to addres this and separate the LED from the driver. In most cases the driver is the cheapest switched mode psu chip and a crummy circuit wedged onto a board. The board gets hot from the LED and the fact that it is under rated with teh requried current,. Result ***POP****, no more light. I have taken numerous GU10 LED bulbs apart that have failed and they all have knackered drivers.

      3. Alan Brown Silver badge

        Led lifespan

        "Maybe, but I think a bigger problem is that good quality LEDs last so long that there's no replacement market."

        More lights, more dispersed - and there's a huge market opening up in areas which couldn't previously afford to run lighting at all (offgrid, etc)

    2. kevin king

      OLED is not dead...its just pining for the fjords

      >>OLED's have died a death.

      Hmmm no they haven't and its what is going to make LG display devision turn a profit in the coming year.

      http://www.businessweek.com/news/2014-09-15/lg-display-sees-oled-profit-as-talks-continue-with-sony

      The biggest challenge for OLED TV sales was the high price tag, about double that of the trad set but as everyone in the Television and Film industry will tell you the adoption of this technology is at a pace in production and film making and its just going to drive prices down to that the more trad high definition set. over the next year or so.

    3. Aitor 1 Silver badge

      Disagree

      It's just that CREE has eaten them...

      There is money in making leds.. you just have to produce at low cost with good quality.

    4. intrigid

      "I think, as a whole, the entire LED segment of electronics is on a spiral to the cheapest possible way to do things, and that doesn't generate a lot of profit for anybody."

      WTF? How does this make any sense? Would that same logic apply to computers and electronics in general? "[the computer industry] is on a spiral to the cheapest possible way to do things, and that doesn't generate a lot of profit for anybody."

      Sounds ridiculous when you think about it like that, no?

    5. Alan Brown Silver badge

      "LED TV's haven't taken off."

      Updating an old CRT to a flatscreen was an easy sell.

      Updating a 3 year old flat screen to another flat screen is a lot harder sell.

      (I just pulled the CCFLs out of my 7 year old flatscreen TV and replaced with led backlights. 13 quid vs 300 is a nobrainer.)

      "OLED's have died a death."

      Not at all. Same problem as above.

      1. Vic

        Updating an old CRT to a flatscreen was an easy sell.

        Not to me, it isnt.

        CRTs have a number of disadvantages, but when the images is supposed to be black, they go black. Proper black. LCDs give you a rather washed-out grey...

        I'm hoping flat-screen TVs[1] will catch up to the quality of proper CRTs, but I'll not be holding my breath...

        Vic.

        [1] Plasma TVs can often match CRTs - but offer few advantages, and are far too fragile & expensive for my liking.

        1. kiwimuso

          Hey Vic

          You should really have another look at the latest TVs. They used to a have a problem with blacks, especially compared with plasma, but they've come a long way since then.

          And they're a hell of a lot lighter to move!!! Even versus the old plasma screens.

          With OLED black IS the new black.

          1. Vic

            Re: Hey Vic

            You should really have another look at the latest TVs

            I did - a few *hours* after posting, my CRT TV died - it took on a bright yellow cast :-(

            I now have a 40" Samsung LED unit. The blacks aren't wonderful, but I'll get used to it, I guess. But it plays directly form my USB drive, so the benefits are quite good :-)

            With OLED black IS the new black.

            Yeah, but OLED is more money than I want to pay right now...

            Vic.

            1. kiwimuso

              Re: Hey Vic

              Good for you.

              I can't remember now what I paid for a Panasonic 42 incher OLED HD not long ago here in NZ, but whatever I paid, was probably over-priced for what can be got now, as they can now be bought for NZ$599, around £300. I notice a Samsung 40 incher is dearer at NZ$649 (£325).

              I don't know what your Sammie is like for blacks but the Panasonic is very good.

              Obviously I don't know your circumstances but personally I think that those sorts of prices are bloody cheap for OLED.

        2. Truth4u

          Once you've made the switch to a flat screen, watching a CRT is like staring at a strobe light

    6. Alan Brown Silver badge

      "but you don't actually save all that much once you get into the long run, plus the initial cost."

      The real savings are labour + H&S - Once you change a led lamp, it should last at least a decade, which means you're not paying for people to climb ladders and change the lamps every 2 years.

  4. i like crisps
    Unhappy

    Bring back Tungsten filaments...

    ...i miss the old 40 watters....and CRT tellies

    1. Gray

      Re: Bring back Tungsten filaments...

      Ayup ... and they doubled so nicely for what you Brits call an electric fire ... right? T'is hard to warm one's hands over an LED lamp on a cold, blustery night.

      1. TheRealRoland

        Re: Bring back Tungsten filaments...

        I am just amazed by the decisions the local departments of transportation are taking, over where I live - "let's replace all traffic lights with LED lights! Saves money!"

        But then they forget that when (not if...) it snows, the lights don't produce enough heat to keep them clear from snow...

        1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

          Re: Bring back Tungsten filaments...

          Then you buy shitty LED lamps. I live in Canada, eh? My city has had all LED lamps for a decade or more.

          I guess it's just to much trouble for all y'all to invest in $5 piece of plastic to solve the problem. Can't say as I've any sympathy. If ya need to figure out how to cope with snow, maybe you could ask them as have already solved the problem.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Bring back Tungsten filaments...

          The ones installed in Atlanta have been in long enough that the individual LEDs have started to burn out. Of course, that might have something to do with the supplied power. Several years ago, when I was a courier, I noticed that some of the LED lights would pulse every 3rd or 4th cycle. I reported it to the DoT, but I don't remember if I noticed after I quit driving 10hrs/day.

        3. Alan Brown Silver badge

          Re: Bring back Tungsten filaments...

          "But then they forget that when (not if...) it snows, the lights don't produce enough heat to keep them clear from snow..."

          Proper harsh environment luminaires have automatic heaters in them (relying on lamp heat only works for a narrow range of temperatures and shows that someone's been cheapskating) - and the leds last a _LOT_ longer than filament lamps, which is a big deal when you have someone up a pole on a street changing lamps.

    2. Pet Peeve

      Re: Bring back Tungsten filaments...

      If I never see a tube monitor again, it won't be long enough. They actually have negative value now - even scrappers and thrift stores don't want them.

  5. Dan Paul

    LED TV's are NOT DEAD!

    There will be no more CRT style tv's because they cost too much to make and too much to ship.

    LED TV's may be replaced by OLED tv's but I doubt it.

    The sweet spot in LEDTV is between 46" to 55" and the prices get lower every year. Even curving the screen doesn't mean people will buy another one as there is no specific reason to do so. 3D was a flop. You only have so many kids to hand the old one down to.

    Hey Marketing Morons, listen up. All I want is ALREADY here. I don't need SMART, 4K or CURVED.

    I want an LED TV with a digital tuner that works with anyones cable system (and a law that goes with it) and DOESN'T NEED A FRIKKIN CABLECARD, 3 HDMI inputs, fiber, A/V and THAT"S IT!

    Though better resolution would be nice, you should have provided that years ago and I won't buy that as a compelling feature now.

    Make the price right and I might just buy another.

    1. Message From A Self-Destructing Turnip

      Re: LED TV's are NOT DEAD!

      I feel it pertinent to point out that what is commonly referred to as a 'LEDTV' just has a LCD display with LED backlight as opposed to the now depreciated CCFL. Larger displays made entirely from LEDs do exist but are typically only used for public displays and advertising, mass production of this type of display for consumer applications is not really feasible. This is why OLEDs where developed using organic polymers, allowing low cost mass production of display panels using simple printing techniques.

    2. Vic

      Re: LED TV's are NOT DEAD!

      I want an LED TV with a digital tuner

      I just want a TV that does black levels properly. I don't care which technology it uses...

      Vic.

      1. Duffy Moon

        Re: LED TV's are NOT DEAD!

        Then plasma or OLED are going to be better choices than any LCD. Sadly, plasma is on the wane.

  6. Jim O'Reilly

    Lightbulbs are perceived to have a short life

    LED bulbs suffer from the decades of having light bulbs last around a year. No-one is willing to spend 15x the price on the promise of a very long life.

    The idea is very powerful,since LEDs are less than 50 percent the power of CF bulbs for twice the light output, but the economics and perception will be a killer until price drops near to the CF range, and legislation/price of electricity pushes the LED...that's going to be a while!

    Look for Europe, with their incredibly pricey "green" power, to lead the growth of LEDs.

    1. James Ashton

      Re: Lightbulbs are perceived to have a short life

      "LEDs are less than 50 percent the power of CF bulbs for twice the light output"

      When I go down the lighting aisle I find that LED lights struggle to even match CF for efficiency. 80 lumens per watt seems to be about the best you'll get for either technology. Wake me up when I can buy a standard bulb replacement that beats 100 lumens per watt.

      1. A Twig

        Re: Lightbulbs are perceived to have a short life

        @ James Ashton

        Was lab proven in 2012 ;)

        http://www.extremetech.com/electronics/143672-cree-releases-landmark-200-lumen-per-watt-led

        Can now be bought - wakey wakey! ;)

        http://www.cnet.com/products/ge-100w-replacement-led/

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Lightbulbs are perceived to have a short life

      "Look for Europe, with their incredibly pricey "green" power, to lead the growth of LEDs."

      The main rationale for LEDs is replacement of halogen reflectors. In that case the cost of reputable GU10 is around £5-7, for a bulb that will last 20-30 times the lifetime of a halogen. At 25 * £2 (for branded GU10 halogen bulbs), it is a no brainer to replace the halogen with LED even if electricity were free, and even if the LED only lasted for a third of its rated lifetime.

      Factor in that heat can be a real problem in a lot of halogen installations (eg ten fifty watt GU10 in a kitchen is quite normal, but has an effect like a 500W heater on continuously), allow only modestly for the circa seven fold reduction in electricity use, and Europe's energy prices are only a small bit player in the argument for LEDs.

    3. Alan Brown Silver badge

      Re: Lightbulbs are perceived to have a short life

      "LED bulbs suffer from the decades of having light bulbs last around a year."

      You can thank the Phoebus cartel for that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebus_cartel

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Turnover time

    We made the switch to CFLs eight years ago. Pretty much every incandescent got changed out at the same time. Since we'd just moved in the cost got mixed in with lots more expensive stuff, like a new roof. Power savings were about $30 per month. Those original CFLs started burning out or going unacceptably dim about two years ago, and I started replacing them with LEDs. About 1/2 of our lighting is still CFL, but if the unit cost goes down a bit more I'll be tempted to bite the bullet and switch them all over to LEDs. If Samsung doesn't think they can compete in that market then that's their business. Phillips bowing out is a shame, because their products have generally been high quality and reliable. But Cree is still in the game, and their stuff is as good as Phillips ever was.

  8. Terry 6 Silver badge

    The lesson of the LS120

    There is a section of the technology industry that seems to think that it can always sell its products for a high premium price, so doesn't need to charge a customer friendly one. Sometimes they get away with it. (iprices). But sometimes they get bitten.

    I chose the example of the LS120 "Super floppy". Because the cost of the discs was so exhorbitant that no one bought the damned things. Eventually they got overtaken by cheap CDs.

    1. 404 Silver badge

      Re: The lesson of the LS120

      There was one. Me ;)

      When the LS120 was introduced at COMDEX in Vegas in what? 97? I *had* to have one - had several... still have a couple of drives laying around. fyi, the superdisks don't seem to break down like regular 1.44s - they still work, unlike 70-80% of the floppies I still have boxes of.

      I need a bigger shed... or at least get rid of the floppies.

      1. Terry 6 Silver badge

        Re: The lesson of the LS120

        It's actually two of us.I got the drive.

        But I only ever bought 1 or 2 discs. And I had to save up for this.

        1. Kevin Johnston

          Re: The lesson of the LS120

          Ummm....#3 here. One drive, one disc, never really worked out why i let heart over-rule head.

          Oh yeah, and I have (possibly had, we did some clearing recently) 8" floppy drive and discs too

        2. Alan Brown Silver badge

          Re: The lesson of the LS120

          I didn't buy my ls120 for the 120Mb disks, I bought it because it could read/write an entire standard floppy in 7-10 seconds.

    2. Alistair Silver badge
      Boffin

      Re: The lesson of the LS120

      Me -> #4

      bought one drive. had many disks after a few years.

      Several friends had the drives, but they had issues - the (locked down and can't eject issue) - I eventually inherited the drives (and disks) from them -- I'd gotten rather good at winding a replacement spring for the ejector lever.

      Still have the drives and the disks, but that wont last long -- the SO has gotten on a "unpackrat the basement" kick of late.....

  9. Nick Ryan Silver badge

    I've been a fan of LED lights for a while, but this doesn't mean that I see them as a solution to every problem. Compared to CFL bulbs, they are rather more environmentally friendly: CFLs are rather poisonous if broken which is important to remember when one breaks on you.

    Both suffer from being rather more precise on the colour gamut compared to incandescent bulbs (heaters) or halogen lamps (even hotter heaters). Both flicker, although usually impercerciptably. For CFLs this depends on the coating persistence time and for LEDs it's the circuit quality, both of which suffer when you buy budget models. Budget CFLs tend to have fairly random colour gamut unless you buy identical bulbs in a batch, have varying start up times and times to reach peak brightness. Budget LEDs tend to either have light "hot spots", more pronounced flickering or more likely are just not bright enough to be usable replacements for the bulbs they replaced, this last fact alone is why a lot of people don't like LED bulbs. Hint: don't buy your LEDs from supermarkets or DIY stores, buy them from specialists instead; This situation will likely improve at some point but not for a while. Similarly, generally, don't buy no-name (or own-brand) CFLs from supermarkets or DIY stores either; for CFLs there are brands that produce better ones than others.

    For me I generally buy LED bulbs because good quality LEDs are brighter, use less power and are less environmentally damaging than CFL bulbs. Sometimes though, you just can't get an LED bulb in the required shape or light throw angle range but the winner is that LED bulbs can be dimmed but again there is a caveat in that you must use a quality dimmer control and these are somewhat more expensive than the dimmers that worked with incandescent / halogen bulbs.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      "Budget LEDs tend to either have light "hot spots", more pronounced flickering or more likely are just not bright enough to be usable replacements for the bulbs they replaced"

      The old (cardboard cubed) Tesco own brand GU10 LEDs were excellent, particularly the dimmable 250 lm versions. Using 6W they aren't as efficient as newer models, but I'd happily trust Tesco as a supplier on my experience of 20 odd LED bulbs with accumulated run time approaching 2,000 hours per light.

      The issue about hot spotting (or too narrow beam focus) can be somewhat improved by using a fine grained emery cloth on the plastic lens - frost it up a bit and the focus is diffused, the beam angle widened. If you're not really using GU10s as "spot" lights (as most I've seen are not) then this is worth doing by default.

  10. Henry Wertz 1 Gold badge

    3 sales problems

    I would guess Samsung ran into 3 big problems:

    1) CFL bulbs. LED bulbs (unless I'm mistaken) do use even less power; however, the CFL already cuts the power use by about 90% compared to a incadescent, so people just aren't sweating saving those last few percent yet.

    2) Competition. LEDs themselves are not expensive to manufacture, I would bet there are some Chinese LED bulbs undercutting on price.

    3) Longevity. Those who do buy LED bulbs will tend to not keep buying very many LED bulbs -- the LED bulbs have higher rated lifetimes than incadescent or CFLs; and some of the CFL bulbs tend to overheat in certain enclosures and so not get anywhere near rated bulb life. The LED will probably get close to full rated bulb life.

    1. John Tserkezis

      Re: 3 sales problems

      CFL bulbs. LED bulbs (unless I'm mistaken) do use even less power

      Even to this day, I'm stunned as to how much importance people place power consumption on lighting. Big things first, small things last, and lighting is a small thing - especially when they still use bar heaters.

      Competition. LEDs themselves are not expensive to manufacture

      Chinese LEDs are cheap because they're cheap in every sense. They're crap. That's why.

      CFL bulbs tend to overheat in certain enclosures

      LEDs have the same problem. They are also run harder and hotter to get the most light out, at a cost of life (even if it still is decades). Put them in a tight enclosure, and you're going to kill (or at least degrade) them, even faster.

      1. danbi

        Re: 3 sales problems

        Speak for yourself. I briefer my rooms properly lit and the one I sit in now originally had 10x40W halogen bulbs. Some ignorable 400W, yeah?

        Now the same lighting run on LEDs and consume around 60W for brighter light.

        The funny thing about "Chinese manufacturers" is that they produce the components for everyone, including Philips and Samsung. Perhaps you are confusing these with the Chinese sellers, who sell basically the same components, sometimes competently assembled, sometimes not. They usually have contracts with the "better" companies to not sell their products in the same markets (hint: buy your genuine Philips lamp at much lower cost In China).

        LEDs, unlike other technologies are much easier to control properly. The quality characteristics are all about the quality of the electronics that drives them. And today, quality electronics means proper design by someone who knows what they do (such people do exist, still). The electronics can be stamped (by a machine usually), anywhere, most often China, as others are lazy/stupid.

  11. MR J

    With all of the specials that were ran in the past where EDF, NPower, British Gas, and SSE (my area) gave away bulbs, I ended up with so many CFLs that I still have about 7 left (11 - 13w).

    I see some other posters on here saying they just moved from the heated filament bulbs to CFL, but to me that is just silly. If your still using anything other than CFL or LED then it should be time to move, the savings (if you use said light) is so high that waiting for it to take out is just costing you more.

    With OLED Lighting coming to market now we might start seeing things like Lightshades that are the actual lights, or bulbs that are all bendy to help them diffuse better.

    Personally I would like to see LEDs become greener (be it DC home supply or some other solution). I have no doubt the heat problems with LEDs will get better over time, OLEDs will get much more interesting over time, It will be lovely when we can get rid of the horrible ugly thing that we all know of as a light bulb... I think they are all horrid, but that's just me.

    BTW, I was a "early" adopter of LED and CFL, most people thought I was nuts.. The "early" LED units I got were so poor in quality (and high in price) that I vowed to wait until the tech was really good enough for the home. In a strip light, or flood lighting (where massive heat sinks can be had) I think they are ready, the bulbs for home use really don't do much for me at the moment.. Once 6 more of my CFLs go out then it will be time to move to LED, so I only have a few more years to wait ;)

    1. Alan Brown Silver badge

      "I have no doubt the heat problems with LEDs will get better over time,"

      Given the long lifespan of LEDs, the answer to the heat problem is not to try and shove them in the tiny form factor as a standard lamp. It's much better to replace the entire fitting.

      If you're in rental accomodation or using specialist fittings then I can see the point, but it's heat killiing the driver electronics which is the problem in lamps, not the leds themselves.

  12. Zog The Undeniable
    Unhappy

    This is sad to hear, because the cheap commodity Chinese LEDs from fleaBay can last a matter of days (the record was half a day, maybe half an hour of actual use) before they fail. They are total rubbish. I have never had a Philips one fail and I'm very happy with the light output and quality.

    1. Alan Brown Silver badge

      "This is sad to hear, because the cheap commodity Chinese LEDs from fleaBay can last a matter of days (the record was half a day, maybe half an hour of actual use) before they fail."

      Yes they can. And if they do, you raise a complaint about them, or push for a refund through eBay.

      Historically I've seen far more rip-off vending from USA-based sellers than I've ever seen from chinese ones - that's not to say it doesn't exist, but chinese sellers are touchy as hell about their reputations and have to jump through serious hoops to get a Paypal account.

  13. 7
    Windows

    Not hearing anything about my issue with CFLs

    Replaced all CFLs in cool basement because of the annoyance of waiting 5 minutes every time for the things to provide enough light to work with. LEDs provide immediate and very satisfactory light. Very happy. I now rather wonder if the CFLs I'd been using (standard Home Depot) are somehow different than those used by all these commenters.

  14. Sporkinum

    Yes, the CFLs have to warm up. But I pay 30p per bulb for 825 lumen 13 watt CFLs through a promotion from the power company. They sell LED bulbs too, but cost £5 for 830 lumen 11 watt LED. They claim 10,000 hour life on the CFLs vs 25,000 on the LEDs.

  15. Henry Wertz 1 Gold badge

    lower complexity to manufacture?

    "Even to this day, I'm stunned as to how much importance people place power consumption on lighting. Big things first, small things last, and lighting is a small thing - especially when they still use bar heaters."

    Agreed. Going from incadescents to fluroscents, you get the big savings, like 50-85W a bulb (depending on if you're replacing a 60W or 100W). Going from CFL to LED? Like 5W maybe? I certainly wouldn't replace a working CFL with an LED just for power savings. (If I had to wait for them to warm up like 7? Yeah I'd replace them and save the CFLs as spares for somewhere warmer.)

    I also have to agree... LED bulbs should have much lower manufacturing complexity... after all, rather than a high-voltage power supply, starting circuit, and a curvy bit of glass with fluorescent material and gas inside it, you've got a circuit board with some LEDs etched on it, and a low-voltage power supply (and I guess some plastic up front to diffuse the light.)

  16. Alan Brown Silver badge

    "Going from CFL to LED? Like 5W maybe?"

    The big improvements are: Reduction of RFI hash emitted by CFLs, faster startup and far better light quality (assuming you didn't buy cheap'n'nasties.)

  17. Kroneous

    This Writer is Whacked! lol....

    I mean really.... who does he think is getting all the electric car maker contracts right now? GMC, BMW, Tesla.... and that's just some of the cars. Samsung SDI's LiPo, LithiumAir and now they're killing it with Li S battery technology R&D. They just bought the Battery Division of the Company set to make Apple's electric iKiddy Car! lol....

    Samsung Techwin is one of the most successful divisions in that 80+ companies! lol.... and they will most definitely break $500 Billion in Revenue in Samsung Group alone. That's without a whole slew of Joint Ventures. Like the one with Royal Dutch Shell building the Prelude FLNG Project in one deal worth $55 Billion. Which you probably never of heard of. haha.... just because there's nothing about Apple connected with it.

    Just admit you're an Appleholic Samsung Haters Anonymous member and you go for any negative FUD or Misinformation about Samsung you possibly can when dealing with such a massive array of iPWNERSHIP in a Family owned Group of Companies held privately. Which since you're such a jughead, means they can never be considered as having the Delusional Market Cap Value, you iDiots cream in your jeans over!!! :D

    News for you; Market Cap is only really important to morons who think the iTrinket maker invented everything Way Before the Dawn of Time! hahaha.... iPhones.... is that all they got???? lol... Samsung has oil, gas, construction, ships, home appliances, fashion, fabrics, plastics, semiconductor processors, memory, cameras and mine all their own materials, besides owning the Gold and Silver in Sierra Leone Mines, that Apple will probably be forced to buy along with their best 14nm FinFet Fab plants making their chips, memory and screens. Samsung is still #1 Electronics Conglomerate in the World! lol...

    As to LEDs? Are you getting? You can get 7w LED bulbs for $2.50 in China right now on ebay. They do however own some serious Patent IP in IoT technology for specialty LED lighting. Besides making nearly all the lasers in Optical disk players, military use, etc. They supply them and other retailers rebrand and sell! They HUGE in Global R&D and their own Marketing Budget alone is more than most companies. Which majority of it they pay themselves haha.... via Samsung Worldwide!!! ;-P Dream on fool.... but you can't touch Samsung with a 10 foot pole on just the strength of their Global Diversity. Medical? ahahaha.... They own a Top 10 Cancer Research and Treatment Center and Medison invented 3D/4D Ultrasound. Don't make me laugh..... their pharma is new and it's growing, not stagnant 3 quarters of the year like Cr Apple w/ only one good quarter of selling iTrinkets only at launch! :DDD

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