back to article What's in your toolbox? Why the browser wars are so last decade

Desktop browsers have reached a point where there isn't a huge amount of daylight between them. Google Chrome, Mozilla Firefox and Opera are all on a pretty even playing field when it comes to features and speed. Safari and Internet Explorer lag a little bit when it comes to the bleeding edge of web standards because they …

  1. Paul Crawford Silver badge

    "The pressure to differentiate is more intense than ever"

    Really? So why is Firefox so keen to dump useful GUI stuff in order to look like Chrome?

    1. Jim 59

      Re: "The pressure to differentiate is more intense than ever"

      Don't say "Chrome", say "Iron". Iron = Chrome with stalkware stripped out.

      1. captain veg

        Re: "The pressure to differentiate is more intense than ever"

        Upvote from me, but strictly Iron is simply a Windows build of Chromium, and Chrome = Chromium with stalkware added in.

        -A.

  2. Valeyard

    IE

    One good feature of the newer IE dev tools i like is that I can make the browser emulate lower versions of IE, so I just need the one VM to test back to where we start supporting (Ideally I'd not open IE at all but at least this little detail makes it somewhat less cumbersome to test for)

    modern.ie supplies VMs to test on which is pretty cool, so it looks like they're trying to help testing, just not with anything particularly powerful or exciting (or with a decent browser)

    1. Caff

      Re: IE

      I like that at the bottom of the Irish domained modern.ie page it says "hello from seattle"

      1. Valeyard

        Re: IE

        hey all the best companies come from here, we're the silicon island, a hotbed of tech knowhow!!

        Apple, Yahoo, Google, facebook

        ;)

        1. Valeyard

          Re: IE

          apparently 1 thumb downer doesn't get the subtle hint that i'm irish.

        2. Michael Habel Silver badge

          Re: IE

          hey all the best companies come from here, we're the silicon island, a hotbed of tech knowhow!!

          Yeah I'm sure that the Tax Breaks those Corporations receive for being in Ireland, have absolutely to do with 'em all wanting to be there...

          1. Valeyard

            Re: IE

            Yeah I'm sure that the Tax Breaks those Corporations receive for being in Ireland, have absolutely to do with 'em all wanting to be there...

            i've never been accused of subtle jokes before, but i think written communication robs something :(

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Big Brother

        Re: IE

        "Unfortunately somebody has already registered this domain name by proving their claim to the name and their connection with Ireland. Please search again for a different domain name." ref

        domain: modern.ie

        descr: Microsoft Corporation

        descr: Body Corporate (Ltd,PLC,Company)

      3. Saint Gerbil
        Coat

        Re: IE

        Must be hosted here:

        https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Seattle,+Mayorstone+Dr,+Mayorstone,+Limerick,+Ireland/@52.6572862,-8.6510715,13z

    2. Bladeforce

      Re: IE

      "One good feature of the newer IE dev tools i like is that I can make the browser emulate lower versions of IE,"

      Why, oh why, oh why? Just drop it like a stone and be dragged into the 21st century for Gods sake

      1. big_D Silver badge

        Re: IE

        MS announced over 100 "fixes" to break standard compatibility on their IE11 for WindowsPhone, because it is too compliant. Allegedly a lot of mobile web developers are using WebKit only (i.e. non-standard) meta tags and the sites don't render properly on WP, so Update 1 brings the fixes to make it interpret the non-standard meta tags...

        It looks like what MS did in the 90s is coming back around and Webkit proprietary tag extensions are now the bane of other browser developers.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: IE

          I've stopped testing in IE now. It's hardly used nowadays. I'll make it compliant with the current standards, and if IE doesn't like it: tough!

          If MS want to fix IE to make it work on my sites, they can fill their boots. With the burning hoops i've jumped through over the years to make something work with IE#, it's pay back time.

          1. big_D Silver badge

            Re: IE

            Hardly used? It has a larger market share than the other (desktop) browsers put together!

            1. Michael Habel Silver badge

              Re: IE

              Hardly used? It has a larger market share than the other (desktop) browsers put together!

              Yes, but, ONLY in the Week following the Second Tuesday of any given Month....

            2. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: IE

              Hardly used? It has a larger market share than the other (desktop) browsers put together!

              Really? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_web_browsers

              - There is only 1 source that backs up your claim, and their stats are skewed beyond reality. They are a Microsoft gold partner, they receive money from MS, they don't publicise their data sources, only that they use weighting rather than actual numbers.

              - Don't use the straw-man of pre-rendering, that (and bots) are not counted.

              - You tried to validate your statement with "desktop". Desktops are dwindling (apparently, I haven't seen that).

              Each version of IE renders differently. To me, they're separate browsers in the "Others" category.

              Just like the old days when IE peaked, I'm not wasting my time on the sub-10% browsers that are not improving or gaining. Shit happens.

              I'll make my site standards compliant - if you don't like that IE can't render it properly, then use a standards compliant browser or wait for MS to fix it. Not me.

              1. Stevie Silver badge

                Re: Really?

                The stats on that Wikipedia page do not refute the statement made (on my reading of it), though they do suggest it is inaccurate.

                The 'fine print' clauses on the Wikipedia page are illuminating.

                Thanks for the link.

        2. Charlie Clark Silver badge

          Re: IE

          Allegedly a lot of mobile web developers are using WebKit only (i.e. non-standard) meta tags

          It's not really the meta-tags but prefixes in CSS. Prefixes were never really a good idea (because using them was laborious and error prone) though the idea behind was: provide working implementations of stuff under discussion. Prefixes are being replaced by allowing developers to switch support for experimental features on or off.

    3. Anonymous Bullard
      Thumb Up

      Re: IE

      > modern.ie supplies VMs to test

      And that's a god send. It's helped me to completely move to developing on Linux.

    4. Pez92

      Re: IE

      Although it is good that they make it easier to support the older versions, that's a problem they created for themselves in the first place. The other browsers simply prompt and allow users to update their browser so that developers don't have to put in extra work to support an inferior and outdated product.

  3. ilithium

    Browser emulator

    You forgot Chrome's browser emulator, which allows you to switch between desktop and mobile views pretty easily.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Browser emulator

      I don't think the author actually looked for things like this, just assumed that since last time they checked a few years back it didn't exist, so it won't exist now. Many of the things found in Chrome / Firefox are also present in IE's dev tools, but it's obvious he's not tested them, just writing them off with a "not updated often enough" as some kind of excuse.

      1. auburnman

        Re: Browser emulator

        To be fair if I had to review browsers, I too would skip actually using IE if I had any chance to get away with it.

        1. big_D Silver badge

          Re: Browser emulator

          That would be a shame, IE 11 has come a long way...

          I still wouldn't use it as my main browser, but the bad old days are gone - and if you use a Windows tablet, then you pretty much have to use IE, Chrome is dreadful in "Modern" mode for touch and Mozilla abadoned making Firefox touch friendly before it got to the first release...

          I use it as my main browser on my tablet, but I still do sensitive stuff and exploring new sites in Firefox (NoScript and Flashblock) and Firefox is still my main browser on my normal PCs.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Browser emulator -IE 11 has come a long way.

            Was it Mao or someone else who said "We have come from very far and we have very far to go"?

            It's generally assumed he was referring to communism, but I think that IE was intended.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Browser emulator

          If you're reviewing browsers for developer, then there's no point even thinking about IE.

          1. DPWDC

            Re: Browser emulator

            "If you're reviewing browsers for developer, then there's no point even thinking about IE."

            As the actress said to the bishop...

            Come again!?

            Making IE render correctly for corporate customers pretty much REQUIRES using IE dev tools.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Browser emulator

              > corporate customers pretty much REQUIRES using IE dev tools.

              That's a good reason why I develop for the open web.

              The majority of corporate developers I've worked with are so lame it's untrue*. There are exceptions, but finding them when trying to hire is difficult (current situation).

              *[If I offended you, you're probably one of them]

        3. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Browser emulator

          > I too would skip actually using IE

          Why? I hardly have any experience with it, being a Linux / KDE type, but the few times I've used it, it annoyed me a lot less than Firefox, which has gone from being a fine browser to an utter piece of wank.

          Development tools aside, we were told we couldn't get a download progress bar "because that belonged in a plug-in", yet the sorry shit's got Twatter, Farcebook, and ObscureSocialThingMeToo integration right in the core.

          The Mozilla Foundation is not that different from a normal software company, except that as many "non-profits", management is some of the most incompetent people out there (out-incompetenced only by Wikimedia Foundation, I believe) so they're driving their star product into the ground, while neglecting their other stuff, such as Thunderbird.

          If there was a Linux version of IE, I'd fucking use it.

          1. Anonymous Bullard

            Re: Browser emulator

            > If there was a Linux version of IE, I'd fucking use it.

            That's a bit like a man telling a woman giving birth: "If only I could go through that pain for you instead..."

            You know it's not going to happen.

            1. captain veg

              Re: Browser emulator

              > You know it's not going to happen.

              It might. (Cough) Wine (cough).

              -A.

          2. Greg J Preece

            Re: Browser emulator

            Development tools aside, we were told we couldn't get a download progress bar "because that belonged in a plug-in", yet the sorry shit's got Twatter, Farcebook, and ObscureSocialThingMeToo integration right in the core.

            Sorry, what? This is Firefox? I'm in it right now and downloads are under an icon to the right of the URL bar, with progress displayed just fine. And I haven't seen Facebook or Twitter any time other than when I request them as URLs. What are you on about?

            Incidentally, KDE Linux here also, as well as Win8.1 and OSX Lion. Never seen what you're talking about in any Firefox version. Personally, I just removed three more add-ons from Firefox because their functionality had been built into core, so the trend for me is in the opposite direction to what you describe.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Browser emulator

              > I'm in it right now and downloads are under an icon to the right of the URL bar

              Eventually they condescendingly acceded to that... in version 24 I think? Soit dit en passant, every modern desktop has got a standard mechanism for reporting download progress... does Firefox use it? No, it doesn't. Apparently it's something to do with "maintaining a consistent look across platforms", i.e., sticking out like a sore thumb in all of them.

              > I haven't seen Facebook or Twitter any time other than when I request them as URLs

              Google "Firefox Services", or just read the release notes for recent versions.

              Or you may also try this: find one of those little Twitter "buttons" on any webpage (El Reg has them) and right click on it. Look for the additional context menu options.

              1. Greg J Preece

                Re: Browser emulator

                Eventually they condescendingly acceded to that... in version 24 I think?

                Right, and before that downloads were in a separate window, which I thought was irritating so I installed a plugin that moved it to a tab. Still had full progress reporting though. I can't recall ever using a version of firefox that didn't show me download progress.

    2. Brewster's Angle Grinder Silver badge

      Re: Browser emulator

      And simulate touch events.

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    IDEs

    In effect, we're returning to the 1980s personal computer model - the user interface is also the IDE. Perhaps Chrome OS is onto something.

    1. roselan

      Re: IDEs

      Depending on the customer i use eclipse, vs, sharpdevelop, netbeans, cloud9, sublime+plugins as ide, with svn, git, and whatever "pattern" they came up with one day.

      FF/chrome allow you to test stuff in context, and fiddle with it.

      If it runs in FF/chrome, these tools are available. No need to wait for a system/file right, firewall rule, svn update, whatever.

      These tools are for fiddling, bug hunting/understanding and prototyping. If you start to do "real" development with them, well, I wish you good luck sir...

      moreover, these 80' tools you speak about, i know them (oh can i forget). Depending on the user you logged in with, you were in dev mode or user mode. These wtf generators have, imo, nothing todo with modern stuff, which expose internals, so you understand what happens.

      On the same vein, there are "simple" online webeditor, or even confulence wiki that use the same tool for usage and admin. And what about jsfiddle, and other online ide, that use the client as an editor for another language?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: IDEs

        That's a lot of bloatware.

        Real men just use Vim and Terminator.

        1. big_D Silver badge

          Re: IDEs

          The author also didn't mention Lynx...

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: IDEs

          > Real men just use Vim and Terminator.

          REAL men use ed(1).

          1. Wibble

            Re: IDEs

            So IE users use edlin?

          2. Displacement Activity

            Re: IDEs

            REAL men didn't stop learning how to do new things 20 years ago.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: IDEs

              > REAL men didn't stop learning how to do new things 20 years ago.

              REAL men were born knowing everything.

              1. Stuart Moore

                Re: IDEs

                REAL men whistle down the telephone line to edit files

                1. Solmyr ibn Wali Barad

                  Re: IDEs

                  REAL men have a look on the files, which makes them to edit themselves.

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Fiddler2 is a useful tool

    That is all

    1. Adam 1 Silver badge

      Re: Fiddler2 is a useful tool

      It is very useful, but now it is owned by teleric it is only a matter of time before it is EA-ified.

  6. roselan
    Paris Hilton

    "personally, I think the answer is both."

    no no no!

    This is absolutely not personal!

  7. Fihart

    Wrong platform.

    Having used most browsers for the desktop I'd agree that they are, mostly, functionally identical.

    So let's have an article that compares mobile browsers -- currently my Blackberry (OS6) native browser crashes out on some pages and Opera Mini doesn't but is maddening to use.

    1. big_D Silver badge

      Re: Wrong platform.

      And web devs using non-standard Webkit only tags on mobile sites, which means they don't work properly on browsers using other engines - MS explicitly added over 100 fixes in WP 8.1 Update 1 preview to combat this problem.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Wrong platform.

        You need to stop going on about that. IE is actually breaking things by using the -webkit- prefix. The site author's decision to use -webkit- should be respected, even if they don't know what they're doing.

        If their site looks shit in IE due to the prefixes, then it's the site's fault for not keeping it up to date. IE shouldn't be masquerading as other browsers.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Wrong platform.

      BlackBerry OS 6 browser is like IE 6. BlackBerry OS 10 browser is an entirely different kettle of fish.

      1. Barry Rueger Silver badge

        Re: Wrong platform.

        Dunno - I've had more than a few issues with the BB10 browser.

        Followed by a realization that NONE of the big guys offers a BB 10 version fo their browsers - no Chrome, no Firefox, no Opera.... so, aside from a couple of "never heard of it" alternatives, I'm stuck with the factory browser.

        As much as I like some things about the Blackberry, the Apple-esque lack of choices and options is feeling a bit uncomfortable.

  8. RoninRodent
    WTF?

    > Safari and Internet Explorer lag a little bit when it comes to the bleeding edge of web standards because they update less frequently, but both are capable.

    I have one response to this. Shut. The. Fuck. Up. You clearly know nothing about browsers.

    Aggressive caching when told not to cache and not obeying the W3C standard padding box model by default are just 2 ways IE has wasted a lot of my time in the last 2 weeks alone. If I counted up the sheer number of hours I have spent tweaking sites that work perfectly in every other browser to also work correctly in IE over the years I would be looking at a very large number indeed. If every web designer could bill Microsoft for the time they spent satisfying that utter piece of crap until it behaves it would bankrupt the company.

    IE is "capable" as a browser in the same way as 2 tin cups and a piece of string are "capable" as a modern communication method.

    1. you are idiots

      IE XX caching is total F**Ked

      When IE is told using all methods available not to cache, the damn thing still caches.

      Then suddenly it decides to load the new file, maddening.

      1. Permidion

        Re: IE XX caching is total F**Ked

        I have the same problem with Chrome :/

    2. Charlie Clark Silver badge

      Aggressive caching when told not to cache and not obeying the W3C standard padding box model by default

      Don't forget that the original specification for the box-model was the way IE did it. Nevertheless, I'm with you on counting the days till corporates stop clinging to IE 8.

      1. Wibble

        Is that the IE box model commonly known as the "broken box model"?

        Whatever; the fact was that MS decided to ignore the standards.

    3. Tony Rogers
      Paris Hilton

      Into the Future

      Things appear to have moved on since my "Compuserve" days.

      Personal addresses....whatever next ?

      Bring back "Bullitin Boards" for a few days to let the screaming freaks

      who continually complain about todays standards see how far we

      have come.

      Rejoice in the ever improving browsers the tech boys build us.

  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    debating Browsers - isn't that what CA/Browser Forum is for?

    Of course, many in the industry see CA/Browser forum as a fountain of trust, since 2005, uniting all CA's & browsers to be always trustworthy - based squarely in 1990's technology, avoiding crypto, CA Pinning & PFS as much as possible???

    Whilst PayPal in 2012 supported CA/Browser Forum reform, advocated they "Operate publicly and transparently" and suggested they "Prevent minority interests or a single constituency group from controlling outcomes" {NSA or MS?}

    Have we got 'Snowden' criteria satisfying Browsers yet? - no!

    will we get them? ...... depends how much you really trust the CABForum....???

    back to the Browser debate...

  10. Forget It

    Elephant in the room: browsers on smart phones.

  11. JimmyPage Silver badge

    I think it's clear the direction we're moving ...

    the client end - PC plus browser, is becoming the end-goal. You then point that at the website of your choice, to actually do something.

    If this is the case, then the end of the journey will be a box which is intended for, and designed to just access websites, which deliver the real functionality.

    When you look at it that way, ChromeOS is a logical development. And hardware vendors need to think carefully about what they build.

  12. Ben Liddicott

    Debugging experience is better in IE

    If you are using IIS and Webforms or MVC, you can set breakpoints in javascript, and use the same debugger to step between server and client side code. It really helps.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Debugging experience is better in IE

      If you're restricted to Visual Studio, sure.

      WebStorm supports all browsers.

    2. Displacement Activity

      Re: Debugging experience is better in IE

      How does that help (seriously?)

      The server and client are asynchronous and completely unrelated, probably running on different platforms, connected only by a thousand miles of wet string. Use your browser/whatever to step through the JS, use your server dev tools to step through the server code. JS almost always runs asynchonously; there is no temporal correspondence between the client and server. Have I missed the point, or are you on too much MS Kool-Aid?

  13. MJI Silver badge

    Why is FF trying to become Chrome?

    Look Mozilla, if we wanted our browser to look like Chrome we would install it.

    Currently on 28 at work as I got Australised at home and I cannot stand it. Even with the removal tool it still looks shoddy.

    I need to find how to report the UI as a big.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Why is FF trying to become Chrome?

      "Currently on 28 at work as I got Australised at home and I cannot stand it. Even with the removal tool it still looks shoddy.

      "I need to find how to report the UI as a big."

      I can't actually understand what you're saying. You got turned into a southern continent? And that's why you're 28 years old? ...and the UI is a big ...a big WHAT ?

      1. Michael Habel Silver badge

        Re: Why is FF trying to become Chrome?

        "Currently on 28 at work as I got Australised at home and I cannot stand it. Even with the removal tool it still looks shoddy...."

        PROTIP: Install Firefox 24ESR (Current Build 24.7), and then use the up-to-then standard about:config fixes...

        browser.tabs.on.Top: false (Returns the Tabs to the bottom!)

        browser.download.useToolkitUI (Returns you to the older... More sane Download Manage!)

        Make such other fine adjustments to the Back, Forward, Home (Cancel) / Refesh | History, and Activity thingy.

        And that should set you up a working Firefox install. In the event that you are running Windows 7 w/Aero. IIRC you can correct this by adding this* to your userChrome.css File (x:\Users\USER\AppData\Roaming\Mozilla\Firefox\Profiles\****default\chrome)

        *

        window, page, dialog, wizard, prefwindow {

        background-color: -moz-Dialog !important; }

        #TabsToolbar {

        background-color: -moz-dialog !important;

        }

        1. Al Jones

          Re: Why is FF trying to become Chrome?

          Firefox 24ESR will stop getting security updates on October 14th - 31ESR has been released, and there will only be a "2 cycle" overlap, as far as I understand. That's 6 months more support than he'll get for version 28, which "expired" in April, but the there were significant changes to the Firefox UI between release 24 and release 28, so the 24ESR UI might not have features that he's using in 28.

          1. MJI Silver badge

            Re: Why is FF trying to become Chrome?

            The UI is so ghastly I am investigating PaleMoon now.

            There are many good reasons for rectangled tabs, there are many good reasons for title bars and fielk Edit menus.

            I do want the internal fixes but I don't want a ghastly GUI.

          2. Michael Habel Silver badge

            Re: Why is FF trying to become Chrome?

            Firefox 24ESR will stop getting security updates on October 14th - 31ESR has been released, and there will only be a "2 cycle" overlap, as far as I understand. That's 6 months more support than he'll get for version 28, which "expired" in April, but the there were significant changes to the Firefox UI between release 24 and release 28, so the 24ESR UI might not have features that he's using in 28

            Just One more Date to mark on the Calendar.... T_T

            Christ where am I gonna go now? Why can't someone just keep pushing out the Updates and, just leave the rest of it the **** alone?!

        2. Michael Habel Silver badge
          Linux

          Re: Why is FF trying to become Chrome?

          Who knew that, that info would be so helpful.... To me since my Windows 7 just tanked. CHKDSK just ate my c:\Windows Directory... And, left me with a Black Screen with just a useless Mouse Courser. Of course Rollback(s) weren't turned on at the time.

          Thankfully a Live Linux CD, plus something called Photorec, saved my Bacon... Well as much as it was possible to considering. The RPIFA was the lack of any DVD-Rs or a working USB Stick. Of all the times it had to pack it in... It just had to be then!

          Luckily I was able to reinstall off an External HDD, So I'm back again nice and fresh....

          Just enjoying the next few Hours on Windows Update(s) right now.... Really is a Rollup Patch for Windows 7, just too much to ask for MicroSoft?!

          Penguin.... 'Cause I should have used more sense, and installed Mint...

  14. Diogenes

    Brackets + Chrome + Ripple (plugin) great for kids

    I have just introduced my students to Brackets (as the editor) and Chrome + Ripple for developing HTML/CSS/JS.mobile apps (and bog standard websites). Brackets allows the students to see the structure of their folders (and code hints for hrefs etc saves a lot of grief :-) and having images "lightbox" in the editor to make sure you the right one is valuable ).

    Nice integration - Ctrl+Alt+P opens Chrome & a mouse click then opens the Ripple android/iOS emulator (lots of different screen sizes to play with) , and it is live emulation, change a css property or html element & you see the change live - without having to save & refresh (again something students struggle with remembering). And from within Brackets you can open the chrome developer tools with a function key.

    (Adobe & Google - who would have thought of me recommending that! combination)

  15. jason 7
    Meh

    Note to web designers.

    Please remember it's not just about the browser you design in. The end product has to work and look right in every browser out there in general use.

    I know most here won't fall into that noob trap but you'd be amazed at how many self-styled 'uber-web wizards' will make a website that looks marvellous in Chrome but falls over in Firefox or IE straight away.

    My other half makes websites and I reckon for her its 25% building and designing and then 75% of the rest of the time getting it to work properly in at least 8 different/versions/types of browser.

    Oh yes and developing in the latest and greatest platform that ends up being popular for all of two months (say Symphony etc.) and then you have stuff to support long term in a format no one wants or maintains.

    "Yes I have a website I'd like you to take over and maintain...platform? Oh I think it's in Symphony..hello? Hello?"

  16. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Every toolkit should have

    accessibility checking. Would help the partially sighted an awful ****ing lot.

    Given that the 40 year olds of today aren't going to stop surfing at 60, you'd better get some practice in now.

  17. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Same as ever

    Just like in 1999, there are no good web browsers. They all stink in one way or another; mostly the UI.

  18. Alex Sullivan

    Chrome canary has pretty nice responsive mode, too and is mainly stable enough for me to work with.

    For what it's worth looking at the IE11 developer tools they are a massive step forward from 9 (my last look) and the ability to emulate everything back to IE6 is a huge boon. I think Scott's right - these are the good times for web devs. (Or is that too positive for Vulture Central?)

  19. WibbleMe

    Time is money, a good web browser just works, the way it supposed to!

    If you have a good, sociable browser then people will recommend your non free products

    As a web dev oh many times have I said "oh ffs can you even do that I..." I have lost count.

  20. Henry Blackman

    Chrome is simply dreadful - awful UI, and is fundamentally a ongoing development project. Full of bugs that don't get fixed for a year or more (unable to scroll on large divs with overflow:scroll took nearly 18 months to get fixed), and now it isn't based on WebKit, it likely to cause another schism for developers to have to account for. Firefox is clunky, overweight and refuses to support standards like H264 because of their unholy war. IE at least works almost as well as Safari (a first class browser in every way, albeit not always out at the front but who cares when development must be done for all browsers anyway), and frankly them adding support for the -webkit prefixes is really just accepting that for years they were so behind, and developers have forgotten about them at all. Especially on mobile.

  21. Michael Habel Silver badge

    All I ever wanted out of a Bowser....

    Was answered back with Firefox 3.0 Its layout was SOOOOO good that I've been mimicking it in every subsequent release of Firefox since.... Till they basically sh--caned this idea starting with version 25. Thus alerting me to the existence of Firefox 24 ESR.

    For me the winner of the next Browser War(s), will be the One that continues to mimic this "perfection", instead of mutating into a wannabe clone of Google's Chrome.

    It's gonna be a sad day on the Wibbles once Mozilla decide to ditch this last good build. I might even need to SHOCK HORROR find a new hobby.. Perhaps I'll rediscover this thing called the Outdoors again? With the ESR Build currently at 24.7... It seems like we only have till about the end of the Year before this goes to. T_T

    1. Al Jones

      Re: All I ever wanted out of a Bowser....

      FF 31.0 ESR was released on July 22nd, along with 24.7 ESR. 24.8 ESR should be released at the beginning of September, along with 31.1 ESR, and that will be the last update for 24ESR.

      https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/organizations/faq/

  22. b166er

    Forget browser wars, how come email clients still render what the fuck they like with no concern for any standard whatsoever?

    1. Michael Habel Silver badge

      Forget browser wars, how come email clients still render what the fuck they like with no concern for any standard whatsoever?

      Sadly here I must admit, that I too have given up all use for a stand-alone e-Mail Client. Sans the One for GMail, and the other non-GMail eMail Client on my Phablet. Really I don't miss Thunderbird that much. And, somehow. I'd expect the MicroSoft (....to the Hilt) Corporates would all be using Outlook, for some reason. I guess this change must have happened after MicroSoft quietly dropped Outlook Express ~ca. Windows XP SP1. Some Ten Years ago now.

      Sadly eMail just never really caught on in these here parts. Now adays we just use Facebook, or Skype to communicate. Seems the only thing eMail is good for is for registering on some Website or other... And, lord knows thats what Billy G invented (or bought out) Hotmail for...

  23. captain veg

    Dragonfly

    Still using Opera 12 for development and debugging here. Such as shame that they killed Presto; I *almost* wish that Microsoft had bought Opera ASA rather than polishing the Trident turd.

    -A.

  24. Aoyagi Aichou

    Opera?

    >"these tools were (hopefully temporarily) removed"

    They removed a lot of features and I doubt they're coming back, Dragonfly included.

  25. Roland6 Silver badge

    And the point of including better "Developer Tools"?

    Sorry can't see the point of having 'Developer tools' shipped in what is effectively an end user application that will be deployed into production environments. However, I can see the need for better support and diagnostic tools to enable better event capture and hence aid understanding of what is causing a webpage or script to fail.

    Remember Windows doesn't ship with developer tools, but it does have a dump reporting capability that seems to do what MS need it to do.

  26. Displacement Activity

    Uh... back to the article

    - If you're debugging JS, you'll need to use both Chrome and FF. They respond differently to errors, and one may report nothing, while the other might give you enough information to find the problem.

    - the IE11 debugger looks like it might be pretty good. Not had the time or inclination to try it properly, though.

    - Chrome and IE are way ahead of FF in app shortcuts and web apps. Mozilla has absolutely no idea what it's doing here, and dropped shortcut support 4 years ago.

  27. Rottenham

    Responsive....Zzzz...

    Having abandoned Usability and Cross-Browser Compatibility, goals we almost achieved once, we now think "Responsive" is cool. This'll last until some new jargon comes along. Meanwhile, web design gets worse and worse. Zzzz...

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