Some Muslims need to read their book more.
A religious row has broken out over Mars One's plans to send volunteers to the Red Planet on a one-way mission that will be televised for the world's entertainment. In April the Dutch group Mars One announced plans to send four people to a Martian habitat by 2023, with more settlers arriving every two years. The estimated $6bn …
That is the general problem with all major religions.
Every single one of them has these principles - Do Not Kill, Suicide is sin, etc.
Their devout followers however do not _READ_ the holy book, they _STUDY_ it. In other words - they are fed a particular interpretation first by a cleric, So even if they read it (most do not), they glance over the bits that do not fit that interpretation.
It's always been a mystery to me how religions go so quickly from "Love thy neighbour" to "Burn the heretic". Even the chilled ones like Buddhists aren't above setting each other alight if there's not enough monastery to go around.
> I guess they lost count a bit in Palestine.
I would suggest that they have a lot of catching up to do with the millions of people "exterminated" on the original journey to the promised land. But then it was OK wasn't it? After all, God said so.
"I would suggest that they have a lot of catching up to do with the millions of people "exterminated" on the original journey to the promised land. But then it was OK wasn't it? After all, God said so."
The indigenous Arab population of Palestine had nothing to do with those events. Perhaps Israel should occupy Germany and Egypt and committing genocide against those populations too?
Oh, wait, they already killed all the Egyptian first born. Just Germany to go then....
"I would suggest that they have a lot of catching up to do with the millions of people "exterminated" on the original journey to the promised land."
Not to detract from your general point (which is that the Old Testament is filled with horrendous crimes and glorification of the invasion of other people's lands), but the evidence that modern Jewish people are any more descended from the ancient Israelites than most non-Jewish people is mixed. There was a large wave of conversions to Judaism prior to the Fourth Century. So some groups of Jewish people are barely related to other groups at all -- at least no more so statistically than any other group -- and evidence that the main body of Jewish people trace their ancestory back to exiles from Egypt is pretty much non-existent. Or rather they just as much can as any non-Jewish group in Europe (and several other parts). That area of the world churned out wave after wave of settlers to other parts in ancient days.
Not that it really matters. Race is pretty much irrelevant in intrinsic terms. Barring the odd thing more prevalent in one ethnic group than another such as diabetes or sickle cell anaemia, we're pretty much identical. It's culture that matters. But the racial connection (or rather lack of) is important to building a narrative about a "diaspora," of being driven out of Israel. A narrative which is very important to many Zionists who want to justify ownership of the area along ethnic lines. (N.b. to the simple minded, Zionist =/= Jewish. There are a very large number of Christian Zionists in the United States and a massive number of non-Zionist Jews all over the place).
Queue incoming protests about Y chromasomes on people called Cohen in 3..2..1...
You do understand the Christian Crusades were in response to the Muslim Crusades which began almost 4 centuries earlier... But seeing ignorance of history is more the norm around here, I am not even going to give your comment any further thought...
I'll leave you with this, since you want to talk about death tolls...
Islam has killed about 270 million people: 120 million Africans*, 60 million Christians, 80 million Hindus, 10 million Buddhists, etc.
Next time try some research, you won't come off looking as clueless as Paris...
Christianity and Islam inheritated the same. But 'shalt not kill' is a mistranslation. It actually says 'you should not murder' or 'you shall not kill unlawfully.' It still allows for exceptions where the killing is authorised by appropriate law, and later sections of the texts describe many of those exceptions.
I wonder if the subject of Space Exploration has been covered in any of the religious books ?
Who knows, maybe there is a better Deity on the planet Mars....Now that would make for really interesting news....
You have to love the irony though:
Putting a death warrant on someone for potentially committing suicide..
And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. [2 Kings 2:11]
If that wasn't a bronze age alien abduction, I'd like to know what was!
"Depends on whether you consider Scientology a religion"
Much like Rob Hubbard turned a Science Fiction story into a religion, Mohammed copied much of early Christianity, spicing it up a bit to invent a new religion. It's quite amazing how gullible some people must be to believe this stuff....
abrahamic religions were created as a tool to control and exploit society:
1. master religion - ripping off all basic ideas and templates from various older religions ranging from egyptian, babylonian, cimmerian, hittite, etc. later forked into two more religions
2. these two slave religions are then periodically pitted against each other, for power, control, resources, abuse, exploitation, brainwashing, mental slavery, ethnic cleansing, genocide, etc
Much like Rob Hubbard turned a Science Fiction story into a religion, Mohammed copied much of early Christianity, spicing it up a bit to invent a new religion. It's quite amazing how gullible some people must be to believe this stuff....
You could quite easily say the same about Jesus.
That said, I don't think it's right to make fun of someone's religious beliefs. People can believe whatever they want, IMHO, unless they try to force those beliefs on me.
Or unless they are trying to scam people out of their hard earned money through a ridiculous cult (*cough* Scientology *cough*)
@AC; "Sorry, but Rob Hubbard was the excellent 8-bit Music composer from the 80s"
Assuming that was aimed at me... thanks, but I know who *Rob* Hubbard was (and that he wasn't L Ron Hubbard), hence the reference to his Commodore 64 music and the "whoosh" as the joke went over your head. :-)
Every so often I read bit and parts of the Scientology backstory and it is hilarious. Planet Earth was settled as a prison planet trillions of years ago and the ghost of murdered prisoners haunt us yet... They've so far successfully managed to sue whoever puts up links to it, on the basis of non-disclosure and trade secrets.
Think about it - none of the other religions feel any shyness about promoting whatever wonderful and informative stories their holy books carry. Scientology feels it has no choice but to keep it secret.
I also read Battlefield Earth and it is a whopper. In years and years of reading SF, a fair bit of it not very good, I have never read something as gloriously, unbashedly, awful. It sucks. Having Jonny Goodboy be the name of the main protagonist? A high point in its literary achievements.
Whoever disses the movie with Travolta always seems to miss how bad the book was.
There is some rumor that, once upon a time, a trio of poor SF writers, Hubbard, Phillip K Dick and another, were debating how to make lots of $. Hubbard's supposed idea? Found a religion.
You have a read some books good, it's not exactly having gone through auditing or even doing the most basic courses offered to get people in the door. There is something in it, some things of value hidden in all that other stuff. Some of the things I learnt in a fleeting contact with the COS have been a positive help every day, the other stuff I've probably forgotten and most of my contact was through people who had left the main church but valued the good techniques for helping people.
I always think people who assume there is no value in Scientology are like those so frightened of their own sexuality they would stone gays, if you are sensible to start with you'll be able to make value judgements about the ideas. My family were seriously into sky is falling! - "Cult" talk if I were to even read a book but they don't consider the damage of passing years of depressive mental mechanisms, that's society's "normal", getting a bit of awareness that's "dangerous talk".
I won't say it took me from a normal nut case to an activated higher being but it helped me understand the dynamics of many situations and spot motivations good or bad.
In the workplace once some of the mystery is taken away spotting someone's tone level can save a lot of surprises. I know most people here "know how to spot wrong'un" but we are not born at 30 so being able to spot the actions of someone covert or out of control of their own space can be very valuable. I see people who are happy to steal from a company and the give away is basic level motivation and often accompanied by subtle withholds, if it looks like a duck listening for quacks can help form a better judgement. If someone does A then B there is a good chance that next move is C, if C happens to risk you or your job being able to spot the pattern may mean a lot.
I suffered anxiety as a kid and going through auditing helped me with that, there is no way I would be able to rub shoulders with comentards like your good selves without that (feel free to pretend that is humour).
"There is some rumor that, once upon a time, a trio of poor SF writers, Hubbard, Phillip K Dick and another, were debating how to make lots of $. Hubbard's supposed idea? Found a religion."
The third was Roger Zelazny and I read it in an interview with him years ago. Long enough ago that it was in print. I've been trying to remember who the other writer was (Dick) since the first post above bringing it up. Zelazny's story was that the three of them went on a binge in San Diego and after many hours of drinking and talking the topic of religion came up.
"Anyone can start a religion", says Hubbard, "based on anything at all, the more nonsensical the better"
"Bullshit" , say they other two
"Bet you $20", says Hubbard and next week had the first draft of Scientology.
I wish I could find that interview again, outside of this it was very funny.
Yes, I know that a Fatwa is not a death warrant as such but the media and some clerics have successfully managed to make it appear as though it was.
Religion is and should remain a private affair unfortunately the religion leaders and the media don't want to make it so.....
In any event is there much difference to fear between death and eternal damnation......
" .. but the media and some clerics have successfully managed .."
Then make fun of the media and clerics and don't call it an irony, because you just admitted the source itself is not to be blamed (at least it this case).
Also, religion is not a private affair but a collective conscience and is aimed at guiding the followers, good or bad.
If one follows the logic of this fatwa, the Hajj is equally condemned, as one could easily die from the trip, the journey to Mecca, the return or the wide variety of diseases carried by other Hajj travelers.
A one way mission is not a suicide mission, that is what the idiots who proclaimed their fatwa missed.
There were plenty of one way missions throughout history. Indeed, the Americas and Australia come to mind for one way missions, though one was voluntary, one was not.
"You have to love the irony though:
Putting a death warrant on someone for potentially committing suicide.."
well for all the potential faults, a Fatwa is *not* a death warrant. It's important to be accurate about these things when we need to criticise them. Otherwise you get shot down on detail as opposed to intent/effect.
They went with songs to the battle, they were young.
Straight of limb, true of eyes, steady and aglow.
They were staunch to the end against odds uncounted,
They fell with their faces to the foe.
They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn
At the going down of the sun and in the morning,
We will remember them.
They mingle not with their laughing comrades again;
They sit no more at familiar tables of home;
They have no lot in our labour of the day-time;
They sleep beyond England's foam
Lest we forget: http://drawmuhammad.tumblr.com/
May 20th every year.
I thought the Dark Ages and the Inquisition ended years ago.
Still it's not a surprise is it when it comes from people who believe women are worth less than men, where honour murders prevail and where education for women is frowned upon.
Thank goodness not all Muslims are the same and that many are more enlightened than this, but it will take a million years to change the mindset of the most hardened.
that people persist in this silly anachronistic nonsense started by the 18th century propaganda, which chose Byzantium as a strawmen monarchy. There was no need to keep the "knowledge": up until 1453, the continuous tradition of Hellenistic education and scholarship was maintained in the Roman empire and its capital---Constantinople. There was almost at all times cultural exchange between the empire and Western Europe (sometimes, alas, in the form of Crusades).
You are overestimating the level of science suriving in the Byzantium. What survived there was engineering, not science. On that one it was considerably more advanced than the rest of Europe - for example their construction technology is something Europe reached in the industrial age (if not later).
I am writing this on hols while right in the middle of the ruins a "small" Byzantian 5th century fort. Used to be an insignificant admin center in one of their provinces. Small == the size of 11th century London (if not bigger) with 16 century or so equivalent construction technology and 19th century equivalent sanitation evident throughout the ruins. So on that count they were 1000 years ahead of the rest of Europe. There a reason for even such minor cities showing such impressive walls - the hordes of Slavic tribes, Bulgarians, Hunns and other invaders from the East. Europe was anything but "trader friendly" and "culutral exchange friendly" from ~4th century all the way until the Italian cities started to reestablish trade during the Renessaince.
Back on the subject - the fundamental sciences however - mathematics, phylosophy, etc all festered and putrified in the Byzantium. Byzantium did not burn books and put scholars on a stake. It had more subtle Byzantean methods (but no less effective).
Do some historians like it or not the only reason we have the fundamental (not engineering) part of the Hellenic heritage are Arabs. They have also added advancements of their own. There is a reason why ALGEBRA is an arabic word you know. Geeks kept drawing diagrams, they never got to the point of abstract equations. In fact, in greece if a mathematical proof was not acceptable if it did not have a visual depiction.
Indeed, I seem to remember an episode of a BBC history of science series (I think it was James Burke's thought provoking 'The Day The Universe Changed') discussing the stagnation of science in middle-ages Europe.
While scientific study north of the Mediterranean got bogged down in religious dogma (the idea of a non-changing god in the christian church, therefore a static universe and static science) it was left to the peoples south of the Mediterranean and in Arabia to continue progress in what we today would call pure science.
Algebra is an arabic word, but the mathematics it names come from India. As do our numbers. Arabs didn't invent these things (or the 0, before someone leaps in with that myth).
I'm getting very tired of all this cultural one-upmanship and willy waving going on these days. Mediaeval Europe wasn't a barbaric cesspit and the arabs weren't enlightened beings bringing science to the unwashed masses. Both sides advanced and retreated at different times and in different ways.
I beg to differ. Fundamental Hellenistic heritage are not natural sciences, but humanities. And this was preserved through the entire history of the Roman empire and bootstrapped Renaissance. Homer and Plato were studied and commented all they way down (vide http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gemistus_Pletho). And there was no need for Italian cities to re-establish trade: it was never broken. In fact up to 12 century, Naples, Amalfi, etc. were *part* of the empire, formally, politically and economically. Funny enough, Naples was even a staunch supporter of iconoclasm (if I still know my Gibbon).
If they had let the Nestorian Christians be, instead of wiping them out and taking their manuscripts, they wouldn't have had to do the work of preserving the Greek classics themselves. Hence, I can't really give Islam much credit for preserving what it first placed in danger.
'If you know a bit of astronomy you'll also know that most of the major stars have Arabic names. All catalogued by Muslim scholars when most of Europe was throwing rocks at Romans.'
I'll give you Aledbaran. On the other hand, Alpha Centauri, Arcturus, Bootes, Betelgeuse, Antares, Canis Major, Sirius, Ursa Major and Minor, Rigel, Upsilon Andromedae, and Zeta Orionis are Greek or Latin. And Polaris too.
'A lot of minor stars' have Arabic names perhaps. But the major ones were cataloged by the classical Greeks and Romans.I may not know much astronomy, but I can catch the whiff of hyperbole.
I'll give you Aledbaran. On the other hand, Alpha Centauri, Arcturus, Bootes, Betelgeuse, Antares, Canis Major, Sirius, Ursa Major and Minor, Rigel, Upsilon Andromedae, and Zeta Orionis are Greek or Latin. And Polaris too.
Fun! Zeta Orionis is called Alnitak, and Betelgeuse is actually a corrupted translation from Arabic as well. The 'proper' Greek name is Alpha Orionis. Even Antares was known by the Persians, so it seems to be more of a case of both camps observing stars. Though it is worthy of noting that they are Greek names, which reinforces the Middle Ages "brute" belief that science just stagnated during those centuries.
No. The 'believers' keep themselves in a Middle Ages lifestyle. I've got no problem with religion, in fact I think it does a lot more good than harm. However, if the 'believers' can't be bothered enough to investigate the precepts of their own religion, it's kind of hard for me to have too much sympathy for them.
In precisely zero of the worlds major religions, are there 'backwards' rules placed on the general religious population. All the poverty/sacrifice/physical restrictions are strictly for the most devout. There's really nothing wrong with that, the principals of removing everything except your primary mission/goal/whatever are very valid and practiced today by athletes and academics, anyone at the highest levels of their fields.
I'm uncertain about Shintoists, but all the other major religious texts go way out of their way to tell you not to make your religious observances all encompassing or inconvenient unless those things are appealing to you in your own quest of understanding the world/universe. If you're doing something 'holy' only because somebody said that's what the book said to do then you're not helping anyone and are being 'unholy' because you're making the motions but only because you feel obligated/scared isn't worth anything.
One of the central concepts most religions share is that you reflect your god most accurately and with the greatest respect and piety by acting true to your nature. They also stress that, by acting true to your nature, you will develop a greater understanding of the world and that your nature will evolve with that understanding. The person you are today, is not the person you will always be.
That last bit is HUGE because it addresses the sand in the Vaseline of Humanity that's caused no end of trouble. 'Your' mission from 'god' is the evolution of your 'self' during your life. If you start, in honestly with your-self, at say (1), and, as your understanding increases and your-self evolves to a (3) at the end of your life and you got there by being honest with yourself that's all you can ask for. The same is true if you go from (1) to (345,654,133.3). There is no goal, because it's the evolution itself that matters, not the destination.
The sand I was talking about is that people have fucked up a rather elegant philosophy by comparing their 'level of holiness' against the 'holiness' of others. Holy Willy Waving! There is no more, or less, holiness for anyone: (1) to (3) is exactly the same as (1) to (345,654,133.3).
My point was that no one much reads their religions holy works. If they did, they would know that all the bullshit isn't required to be 'properly pious'. Properly pious is being yourself. Everything else is made up.
You can die at any time from any thing, due to any number of risks. My Mum died after she slipped while climbing out of her car, she snapped her leg, blood clot shifted from the break to her brain and killed her. While she was an athiest, she did charity work, she gave blood, she worked with animals, she painted and did drawing her spare time, she tried her best to be a good person without the need for a book of fairy-tales from any of the major cults.
I learned from her death that life is worth living and every day is precious so do your best within your means to make the most of it. The Grim Reaper is lurking round every corner and death is not an "if" thing, it's a "when" thing, so live.
There is a Yoga exercise called "The corpse". It's easy to do, just lie on the floor and imagine that you have died. The cause of death can be different each time that you do it. Then imagine that your body rots away and is reduced to bones, then the bones turning to dust and being blown away.
There are several benefits from doing this exercise, here is two.
We are all going to die someday so this is a good rehearsal, it may reduce the fear of death.
It may begin to give you the feeling that your consciousness can exist without the body.
Some people, including me, have had out of body experiences. This experience raises questions about things like re-incarnation and the possibility of a Deity.
You have to assume that organised religion has subverted it's original teachings for the usual human reasons of power and money. For example, woman were written out of the early Christian church and it became a "men only" club for the elite.
In any event, the Boy Scout motto of "Be prepared" is good advice. Peace.
I'm always inspired by Tom Lehrers take on that - even better the the elements! (and still up to date)
Be prepared! that's the boy scout's marching song,
Be prepared! as through life you march along.
Be prepared to hold your liquor pretty well,
Don't write naughty words on walls if you can't spell.
Be prepared! to hide that pack of cigarettes,
Don't make book if you cannot cover bets.
Keep those reefers hidden where you're sure
That they will not be found
And be careful not to smoke them
When the scoutmaster's around
For he only will insist that it be shared.
Be prepared! that's the boy scouts' solemn creed,
Be prepared! and be clean in word and deed.
Don't solicit for your sister, that's not nice,
Unless you get a good percentage of her price.
Be prepared! and be careful not to do
Your good deeds when there's no one watching you.
If you're looking for adventure of a
New and different kind,
And you come across a girl scout who is
Don't be nervous, don't be flustered, don't be scared.
All words approx - my errors - c/o Tom Lehrer (available in all good music stores)
1) "Mars One" isn't going to happen. It's a figment designed to separate fools from their money. The cost-benefit analyses doesn't hold water.
2) Religious proclamations are similarly figments designed to separate fools from their money. Note that I'm not mentioning any particular religion in this post ... IMO, all organized religions are the root of all evil.
Christ didn't like organised religions either. The word "church" means gathering of people. The early churches were just that, people gathering together in each other's homes to discuss their shared beliefs. That's where it should have stayed - work out your own salvation with like-minded people.
That's certainly the natural reaction to this kind of news item.
A respected Muslim cleric from Pakistan, Muhammad Tahir-ul-Qadri, actually did make the news by issuing a 500-page fatwa against suicide bombing, so I have to admit that this is not something that never happened, for all the good that it did.
I find the Muslim mind a morass of inconsistencies worthy of the most abject derision. What did I expect. They stop everything 5 times a day to kneel to an invisible guy who lives in the sky, and is so without any visible means of support that he needs your money, your wife or your life.
Religious people give me such entertainment.
I find the Feminist mind a morass of inconsistencies worthy of the most abject derision. I find the Climate Science mind a morass of inconsistencies worthy of the most abject derision. I find the mind of Climate Deniers a morass of inconsistencies worthy of the most abject derision. In fact, I find the $x mind a morass of inconsistencies worthy of the most abject derision - where $x is any group of people sufficiently large* that the media can find two or more people with opposing views and present them as the settled opinion of the entire group according to whatever point they are trying to make at the time.
* In this context, "sufficiently large" means an integer greater than or equal to 2 (or an integer greater than or equal to 1, if that 1 is Richard Dawkins).
" .. I find the Muslim mind a morass of inconsistencies .. "
I give you the N button. Wipe that inconsistency out.
[It is sad that this thread is now 3 pages long..wipe out inconsistent posts from here as well.]
Islam has finally convinced me that life really isn't worth living... if you live by Islamic principles.
AC as ever, on matters like this, since even the dumbest of God's children is capable of doing a 'John Connor' lookup.
[Edit: Shit I've just made life difficult for anyone who happens to be named John Connor. Strike that – the name's Mohammed.]
Actually, in this case, you kind of have to agree with them, or at least agree that seriously applying for the Mars One "mission" is probably a bad idea. It seems extremely unlikely that Mars One will manage to land anyone on Mars in the next decade, if ever, and if they were to somehow do so, there's little chance that the "colonists" would remain alive for long. Even if they somehow manage to make the landings happen, there simply isn't enough time to perform the necessary tests to make sure things work as planned and people will be able to survive the trip as designed, let alone an extended stay afterward. Then there's the predicted budget, which might seem like a lot, but is really quite low considering what they claim to be trying to do. $6 billion to set up a manned colony on Mars? The Apollo program cost over $100 billion (adjusted for inflation) to send a handful of manned missions to the moon, which is a much easier feat to accomplish, and that was without the need to set up a colony or keep people alive for more than a couple weeks round trip.
The way this is likely to go down is that we'll see the reality TV show pop up within the next couple years, complete with nonsensical eliminations and voting and drama, and the show will last a few years, during which time the important parts of the mission necessary to make it happen will be continually pushed back and finally cancelled for lack of funding. I suppose if someone's an attention-whore who can pretend to be willing to risk their life to go to Mars, this could be a reasonable way to get attention, but for anyone else, it's probably mostly a waste of time.
While I agree Mars One has only a small chance of actual success, it's not reasonable to compare their challenges to Apollo. Apollo had a totally different set of challenges.
Apollo (and it predecessors) started with only minimal rocket and no manned space-flight technology, and basically had to invent *everything* - how to get to space, how to orbit, how to dock and undock, how to land on another world and lift off to orbit again, how to avoid fatal doses of solar radiation - *everything*.
Mars One, on the other hand, is getting most of their travel technology off the shelf. The Orion spacecraft, built by Lockheed Martin under a NASA contract, will be capable of delivering humans to Mars. America has landed numerous rovers on Mars using several different techniques, and kept them operational for years at a time. We've built several space stations, including the international Freedom, on which people have survived in space for almost a year at a time. We have a broad range of standard space tech and techniques on which to build.
Mars One's challenges are unique and interesting, but small enough to give a fair chance of non-trivial success. They will need to invent robotic construction techniques to build the colony and manage agriculture until the colonists arrive, and design and build the lander that will travel with Orion and get the colonists to the surface. No idea if they can pull that off for $6 billion, but if they can tap the benefits of free culture as open source software has done, it's quite possible.
How long the colonists can survive is the big question, and the point of the fatwa. If a key piece of tech breaks before the colony is able to begin building its own indigenous housing and agriculture tech, they have no plan B. Develop local tech or die.
But a lot of people are willing to risk their lives to make the attempt, and I applaud that spirit.
The problem isn't that they think that Mars One is a bad idea; the problem is the method of conveying that information: a fatwah is more of an order than advice -- it's like the edict of a pope or the "political opinion" of some US "ministers".
It illustrates a key problem of organized religion -- the tendency of those in the organization to shift from advising to demagoguery, and for the scope of their advice to creep beyond managing your spiritual affairs to managing your physical* affairs.
* or [extra]marital, even...
I had a friend blessed with a near photographic memory. It was sheer joy to be there when he invited Jehovas or Mormons or whomever came to convert us having their religion tied up in knots and thrown in the bin.For every quote he had a contradictory one instantly at hand for them to look up.
I told them - this was close on twenty years ago - when they started on about the need to be saved, that I had more faith in Humanity. They briefly um-ed and ah-ed, then went away, and never came back. That was my one and only attempt at dialogue with them. Now - living in a different part of the country - on the rare occasion they - or the Mormons - do appear, I just revert to the 'Not interested, thanks' and close the door.
I don't have as much faith in Humanity these days.
"But now the General Authority of Islamic Affairs and Endowment (GAIAE) has issued a fatwa forbidding devout Muslims from taking part."
Without seeing a translation of the original text, I doubt that very much indeed.
Fatwas do not forbid anything. The provide an opinion on what the holy texts say, but no concrete instructions to do this or the other.
(no, there never was a fatwa saying to kill Rushdie. There was a fatwa saying his text was blasphemous. Then there were people who, based on that, put a bounty on his head)
One should remember that islam does not have a hierarchical structure like the catholic church does. A fatwa like this isn't like a papal decree, it's like an opinion from a southern baptist priest or a Labour representative from Stoke-On-Trent, i.e. not binding but frequently amusing for other members of the organization.
That said, I hope religious fanatics of all creeds stay on Earth when humanity spreads to the planets, and the stars. That would be an excellent time for humanity to leave childish things behind.
I am 78 years old and have traveled 24 countries in the world and some of these countries were different religions controlling in the masses. What I found out in my travels is that if you treat your fellow people like you would like to be treated no matter what religion you have no problem with the majority of the people. In any country you have people which want to change things and that is ok but it comes down on how to change for the betterment of all. When a group wants to kill people to have their way against the majority it causes a large spike in that world and what happens is this. The spike is large enough to reach almost everyone and that makes people wanting to except or not except. The problem of this is it takes a great time to smooth out this spike and if the spike is small it takes only a small amount of time to smooth out. So it has to be a spike to only cause a small ripple in the sea of life or things start to degrade the many things we need to have a normal life on this planet. All this has no attachment to any group or religion since it is only how we live and survive. Survival is the highest drive we have to exist on the way we live. Food is the second most drive we need to exist. Production is the third drive we have. All this takes money or trade or barter to better our lives. Large changes are the worst problem all people have in this world since it causes a large wave in the sea of civilisation and makes life hard to except. So in closing if we treat everyone like we would like to be treated things are made less problematic in our lives.
"So in closing if we treat everyone like we would like to be treated things are made less problematic in our lives."
Unfortunately your summation does not incorporate the most powerfull driving force of them all : human greed.....
Altrusim is a wonderfull ideal, reality is a lot less perfect....
"if you treat your fellow people like you would like to be treated no matter what religion you have no problem with the majority of the people"
I, like you, have traveled extensively and often found this to be true.
Until I tried moving to North Wales. Those m'fuckers in N.Wales despise the English no matter how decent you try to treat them.
This article is like those clerics (Muslims or other) who foolishly declare notions with zero reference from the principles they claim to be part of. There is nothing in the message of God that tells the people not to explore His creation. On the contrary He motivates the believer to travel and explore, and since voluntary suicide is unadvisable by God in the Quran, dying by travel from incidents/ accidents isn't a suicide, only fools and cowards think that, like those idiots behind that Ruling (fatwa). Islam is the motivation to explore and seek the truth the reason why the pagan Arabs after they became believers in God and delivered themselves to His message, they translated the intellectual libraries (Grk-Rmn) from the past, corrected its faults and invented progressive methods of exploration of the elements which became and still today at the forefront of scientific research and proof by calculus, not just philosophy. After the 2nd Islamic century it is the Muslims who bridged scientific and proper knowledge back to the Europeans who studied in Islamic universities during Europes’ dark ages, because under the church such knowledge was considered blasphemy. The following are excerpts from the message of God which was revealed through the Prophet. This is just a small part of a very long list of references to the creation. Our Creator reveal things by leaving a shadow of doubt, to preserve the element of faith and gratefulness, which is at the core of our existence here and now, so it always clear but not enough. Divine messages are not scientific papers which some absurd unbelievers require to believe. Muslims are the only believers in the entire Monotheism from Prophet Abraham, Prophet Jesus Christ and ending with the Prophet Muhammad Allah’s Peace and blessings upon them all. I hope this helps
(Allah = the single Maker of any existence)
Quran (29:18 – 29: 20) “…and if you deny already nations before you have denied there is not upon the Messenger except the duty of clear notification have they not considered how Allah begins creation and then repeats it Indeed that for Allah it is easygoing, (O Muhammad) say (to the people) move through the land and observe how He started creation then Allah will produce the final creation indeed Allah over all things, is competent”. (( one of the many motivations for believers to seek knowledge by travel exploration)).
(21:30) “…Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the land were of one piece, then We parted them, and we made every living thing of water will they not then believe”. ((here we find the proven theory that existence as we know it was a singularity, then the proven theory that all animal human life originated from water)).
(51:47) “…We have built the heaven with might, and We it is Who make the vast expansion”. ((the expanding universe))
(29:47) “… see they not how Allah begins the creation then repeats it for Allah that is easygoing”. ((remember the theory of the big bang then big crunch then big bang etc...))
(32:7) “…Who made all things good which He created and He began the creation of humans from clay”. (( (…He began the creation of humans from clay…) is the proof that humans were created not suddenly as homo-sapiens but there was prior phases of development.))
(50:15, 50:16) “…Were We then worn out by the first creation? yet they are in doubt about a new creation and We created man and We know what his soul whispereth to him and We are nearer to him than his jugular vein”. ((this verse confirms the meaning included in 32.7, saying that there was a first creation, the creation of life, which then evolved according to a long process of learning how to adapt to the environemnt.))
(6:2) “…He it is Who hath created you from clay and then hath decreed a period a term is fixed with Him Yet still ye doubt”. ((In this verse we discover that God’s creation of life from clay (a combination of water and earth / soil) happened first then period passed letting it evolve, to interfere when He determined that it was time to interfere.))
ps: since Prophet Abraham Allah's peace and blessings upon him, never any authentic monotheistic divine message has oppressed, on the contrary always a bliss for life and a scale of wisdom and social welfare. Many rulers distorted scriptures, introduced philosophical poetry and made foolish and false fatwas suiting own policies which generated mischief and cruelty.
Thank you and may Allah's peace be with you
Its easy to cherry-pick excerpts from books to make your point but it borders on total arrogance to state " they translated the intellectual libraries (Grk-Rmn) from the past, corrected its faults and invented progressive methods of exploration of the elements which became and still today at the forefront of scientific research and proof by calculus, not just philosophy."
Who are you, or anyone else for that matter, to say that the intellectual libraries of the Greeks and Romans needed correcting. If anything needs correcting it a book that states the following:
Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief] is worse than killing...
Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."
Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority"
Quran (4:95) - "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward"
Sorry, but you'd have to be some kind of headcase to actually volunteer for such trip, especially if going solo. I can imagine plenty of narcissists of the type you get on Big Brother volunteering, then finding out they actually can't cope with being stuck on Mars. Good for ratings, watching their descent into suicidal depression, but not much good for science or space travel. Surely some ability to return, say after ten years, would be more sensible and attract better applicants?
"Such a one-way journey poses a real risk to life, and that can never be justified in Islam,"
Either we've all moved a couple of parallel existence's over or someone hasn't really got with the program, because even a cursory glance at the papers suggests that Muslims in Syria, Afghanistan, CAR etc didn't get the risk memo/fatwa. Mars 1 looks like a positively risk free exercise compared to popping out for a lunchtime sandwich in Homs, and at least has the laudable aim of extending civilisation rather than pounding it to rubble. It would probably cost less too.
What a pointless, pompous little man.
The Jewish religion may be the only one (organized) that has a "life for a life" doctrine (while not officially practiced), but interestingly it's the only religion that doesn't seem to kill people and instantly resort to violence/terrorism to solve perceived slights, while all the rest seem to have a "love thy neighbor" philosophy. (also not practiced) Before you mention Christianity, *ahem, bombing abortion clinics, burning witches at the stake, the Crusades...
Well, the Buddhists are pretty peaceful overall, as are the Hindus for the most part, though their outlook is a bit skewed. I suppose my view is closest to Buddhism personally.
"it's the only religion that doesn't seem to kill people and instantly resort to violence/terrorism to solve perceived slights"
Have you missed the last 90+ years of the history of Palestine? Israel was founded on terrorist acts against the British as well as against the indigenous Arab population and not much has really changed since....Numerous such acts continue to this day including many well documented deliberate acts against women, children and collective punishments against the general population. Not to mention numerous terrorist acts against it's neighbours ad others such as targeted assassinations of civilians...and the commando raid and murder of some the crew of a Turkish humanitarian aid ship - and the similar deliberate attack on the USS Liberty also spring to mind...
Glad you said 90 years...that takes us to the real beginning of Israel, the agreement between Khaza-r Zionists and the Reich in an amicable conference on resolving 'the Jewish Question". The agreement was the transferring of tens of thousands of Zionists to Palestine...much to the anger of Palestinians who knew what was afoot..the entire takeover of their country by these pseudo-religious ratbags.The reich traded with Khazar Israel, built its bank to facilitate than until by WW11 probably around 80,000zionists had been shipped to Palestine.
Other jews wanted be as far away as possible from these collaborators. Essentially they profiteered the war until things got serious back in Europe. Then came the great betrayals of Jews by Jews...not in the German pogrom but in the real holocaust..the blood sacrifice of Jews by jews "for we will gain far more by their suffering". Israel's terrorists,,,which featured many of the "hero's" including "Peres" "ben Gurion" Rahm Emanuel's father and Sharon to mention but a few of many..
These terrorist-profiteers offered Germany their assistance to wipe out the British but the end of the war made that redundant. Infuriated at only being allocated another56% of someone else's country over which Khazar 'Israel's 'pud-pull' their 'rights they began the ghastly slaughter of men women and children asleep on farms, escalated it to bombings and the Nakbar and their descendants and other wild animals imported there continue their spiteful blood lust.
Now they have a sort of safari park in Gaza where they can go sports shooting, leaving cluster bombs, torture the occupants and where abominations are carried out also by settlers,.supported by the Western Governments, including Australia's.
There I no greater obstruction to world pace than Khazar Israel. The sooner it becomes a state under Palestinian rule the best for the whole world. No country claiming to be civilised is as corrupt and brutal as Israel....it's secret life is a ghastly carnage of the most satanic kind which should be arrested..
Those are found in the same place where the Reptilian Thetans have their Space Hitler base, launched by the Iluminati and Raptor Jesus during the establishment of the New World Order. The Khazar are really inhabitants from Nibiru and are just waiting the deep space signal from Mothra to destroy OUR WORLD!!!! OMGWTFBBQ!!!
A bunch of different religions all staking their claim on a new world sounds like a recipe for disaster, but then I remembered that this endevour is supposed to be funded by reality TV sales, so they're definetly going to want to stack the deck for drama.
The story to develop from this is one where the people travelling to Mars slowly but surely have their religion meshed into a new religion for the Mars dwellers.
First the original planet of Earth will be seen as the cradle of their existence, but eventually a change will happen, and Earth will be seen as the hell hole from which only the worthy managed to escape.
Eventually the Martians will develop technology sufficient for them to begin their holy mission of saving Earth - via destruction of course.
I imagine some asteroid aiming of the like, since it is forbidden to set foot on Earth!
Urg. Stop pandering to the religious nutters with patronising insipid crap like "They can be the first Muslims to witness the signs of God's creation in heaven".
No. They can be the first -humans- to walk on Mars, and set in chain a voyage of extra-terrestrial exploration and colonisation that takes our species to the stars. All made possible by the application of science and reason, and the rejection of dogmatic religious bullshit.
Hi....Humour!!....One reaction to this story many might be asking 'can't we make a rocket big enough to send all the more screwed up Muhammedans and Jews and other sects including scientology all together on this exciting voyage however the article itself indicates enough paralysed thinking.
Fatwa...not again...if only they were given a life outside the security blanket of a religion which blames anyone but its men for the world's ills. One could well wonder about this Jewish "god' Muhammedans Jews and Christians worship......all spring from the Jewish 'god' which favoured the murderer Cain and the subsequent abominations upon anyone they don't like. . Christians should demand that the Torah/Talmud /in their various forms be stricken from Christianity. Suddenly the light would shine on them.
In my view all the indicators are these cults in doing so are satanic. The only saviour of men, women and children from themselves was the Jesus...whether man myth or a flash of philosophical energy hitting the earth and leaving an indelible mindset. The whole point of the deliberately deceptive 'there is no god but god' is to deny the Jesus as a divinity. Whether you believe that or not, no person has been closer to perfection as an example to us all. Certainly Muhammed was not a patch on Jesus...that doesn't need explaining as it's self evident to any reader of their lives.
The 'trinity emerged, when Israelites were not worshipping idols as Egyptians or Babylonians or the like from the Israeli "YWEH" as we call it...a trinity of Mother Father and son. The Christians flicked the woman .....no one needs them, they have opinions and get in the way.
Anyone who watched the programme on Israel on Kerry O'Brien's 7:30 very recently would have seen a truly evil khazar woman spruiking her evil interpretations of 'god's will' over Goys... We are jewish supremacy, get out of our way,....no exceptions. Had a muhammedin said the same words and exhibited the same passionate evil the dogs of war would still be baying but then Khazarian-Israel is committed to deception most of all to its 'friends' at which it sniggers, up its sleeve, as 'easily deceived fools.
Going onto the actual story as opposed to the satellite thinking. This mission may well end up with all persons dying. It may take all their remaining life. It may not. For all we know they might wander ito eternal life.
That said the morality is really quite clear. If a person is not taking the trip to suicide, if taking the trip knowing that death may await as an ending then there is no 'suicide".Every occupation leads to death, it is unavoidable....is an Imam on a suicide mission if he plans on preaching all his life?
No one could possibly be intelligent and raise the "escaping god' story other than to stir up the ignorant and the religious vegetables amongst followers ....well, vegetables have a myopic but also panoramic intelligence...so that's not as insulting as it seems.
Personally I think travelling for decades with a proselytising Muhammedin or Jew or Christian WOULD lead to suicide. I can understand idealistic reasons for offering tone a spot on the crew but......give us a break with this Fatwah, ignoramus-generated, attention-seeking nonsense...that is starting to sound closer to Judaism's"what about us...look at us...hey over here" attention seeking ...of which numerous very clever jokes have been written,,,by Jews,
"Protecting life against all possible dangers and keeping it safe is an issue agreed upon by all religions and is clearly stipulated in verse 4/29 of the Holy Quran: Do not kill yourselves or one another. Indeed, Allah is to you ever Merciful," said the GAIAE's President Professor Dr Farooq Hamada."
This is interesting given the various crusades an jihads fought over the years. Or was that one of the rules that are not rules when they choose to ignore them? In which case what's the fuss, go forth my friends and spread the message, just please don't kill one another once you get there.
Be fairer - Christianity includes core concepts like turn the other cheek, the meek shall inherit the Earth, etc.. Not quite up there with thalt shall suicide bomb thy neighbour...
Christanity is in general (with the possiblity exception of the beliefs of large parts of the USA) - a far more civilised and modern religeon....
"Christianity includes core concepts like turn the other cheek, the meek shall inherit the Earth, etc.. Not quite up there with thalt shall suicide bomb thy neighbour..."
You are clearly ignorant of what you speak. Islam (as it comes from the same root as Christianity) also says a lot about respecting others. In fact, most religions pay some kind of lip-service to living as a person within a greater community. That does not stop the organisational structure being used for hate and violence (including the rape of young children).
Religion is evil. The are good people on the planet *DESPITE* religion, not because of it.
In ANY group of people there will be a number of total c***s. And if these c***s get their hand on levers of power (social, religious, political, cultural, whatever) very bad things will happen.
If the weak-willed and the misguided fall in line behind the c***s then exceedingly bad things will happen. One of the main problems with religion is that it demands that the weak and misguided fall in line.
Anyone can see these days this entire article is just a ridiculous attempt to wrap up religious rubbish with a scientific mission. This mission has absolutely NOTHING to do with religion and stupid conflicts over beliefs. This was most likely stirred up by some idiot "concerned" that Muslims would "Miss out" on such a mission.
The rest of the rational world would be more concerned that the most suited to the challenges of the mission were present. There will be no consideration for comforts and religious beliefs. As pioneers, living conditions will be harsh and basic at best. Stamping feet and branding religions around in protest will not change these bare facts. That sort of lunacy has been demonstrated often enough already. Why it's been allowed in the past simply attests to the weak will of those who rule. Practicality and all vestiges of common sense are so often disregarded in favor of so called political correctness, at the detriment of all progress and true equality.
If it wasn't for the newspapers pointing out the differences, I would be hard pressed to tell the difference between a dictatorship and a religious state.
Aha! I have it! One is "Do as I say because I am the master." and the other is "Do as I say because I am the only one privileged enough to hear the word of our invisible master so I am the conveyor of the word of the master.".
"If you believe, I am the one that will direct your existence, if you don't believe, I will have you killed because my master decrees it." sounds much better that "Do as you are told or I will kill you.".
I get it now... If you cannot be the Emperor of a continent or the King of a country, start a religion and be the Master of it, if you cannot be the Master of a religion, then go and start another religion and be the master of that instead, because it is better to be a big fish in a small pond than a small fish in a big pond.
Anyway apart from the launch , the landing and the few first steps, it's not going get a mass tv audience for months and months is it? Look how interest waned on the Apollo missions and the Moon is big in the sky.
(Unless they maybe do it all in the studio and add some bug eyed monsters .. oh what ? really..? )
The cleric is just another ego fattened twat getting himself publicity.
"Protecting life against all possible dangers and keeping it safe is an issue agreed upon by all religions and is clearly stipulated in verse 4/29 of the Holy Quran: Do not kill yourselves or one another. Indeed, Allah is to you ever Merciful," said the GAIAE's President Professor Dr Farooq Hamada.
I assume that everyone else sees the irony in this.......
Man organised religion needs to go fatwa itself.
Good Quran quote. Similar things in Christian faith: James 1v27 "Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world."
So if "man organised religion" is defined as religion not consistent with the faith, then I agree with you.
My point: RELIGION != FAITH
This explains "religious" violence.
"Such a one-way journey poses a real risk to life, and that can never be justified in Islam,"
Hmm, they plant bombs on themselves, wives, and kids, yet this is a risk? Why heck, I though it would get them closer to Alah, and off our planet. I think they are just chicken. but then, who are they to blow up over there? Just sayin.....
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