back to article Tata says USA rejecting HALF of Indians' work visa requests

Indian IT services giant Tata Consulting Services (TCS) has said as many as half of its visa applications to the US are now being rejected as Washington continues to clamp down on immigration ahead of a new bill passing through Congress. TCS global head of human resources, Ajoyendra Mukherjee, told news site Livemint that the …

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  1. Richard 12 Silver badge

    Well, that'll backfire spectacularly

    "We can't get visas so had to hire locally"

    "Good, that's the point!"

    If they wanted to stop that legislation, why announce that it's working as intended?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Well, that'll backfire spectacularly

      "the 50 per cent rejection rate had forced the company to increase hires from the US and Canada by a third this fiscal year, from around 450 to 600 each quarter."

      So if they are having to hire low grade Indian labour locally, who will be left to drive the taxis?

      1. GX5000

        Re: Well, that'll backfire spectacularly

        That's not who they're hiring, read the article again where they start off by Saying University Campus...

    2. JeffyPoooh Silver badge
      Pint

      "Tata says USA rejecting HALF of Indians' work visa requests"

      Simple; just submit twice as many applications. Problem solved.

      1. Roland6 Silver badge

        Re: "Tata says USA rejecting HALF of Indians' work visa requests"

        >Simple; just submit twice as many applications. Problem solved.

        well as they have offices in the USA, they could and probably are also using the L-1 visa option...

  2. Raumkraut

    Damn americans, staying over there, working their own jobs

    While hiring US workers may slightly increase costs for the business, it also means that more US workers will have more money to spend, and so expand the market for goods pretty much across the board. Unless your business is entirely export, it surely makes long-term sense to hire locally.

    1. frank ly Silver badge

      Re: Damn americans, staying over there, working their own jobs

      Yes but .... the workers they hire locally and pay locally, don't buy goods and services from Tata Consulting Services. Also, you raise the issue of 'long term sense' .......... TCS would be concerned with short and medium term costs and profits.

      1. ItsNotMe
        WTF?

        Re: Damn americans, staying over there, working their own jobs

        "Yes but .... the workers they hire locally and pay locally, don't buy goods and services from Tata Consulting Services."

        And the ones brought into the US from India would? What makes you think that?

        1. cortland

          Re: Damn americans, staying over there, working their own jobs

          Some 16 years ago, the now defunct US computer firm I worked for in California contracted for a number of Indian software engineers, laying off (after they'd trained their own replacements) its too-costly American ones. It came out in time that the Indians got no salary while in the US, their home firm paying only expenses, and withholding accrued salary until (or if) they returned to India.

          Ransomware v1.

    2. willi0000000

      Re: Damn americans, staying over there, working their own jobs

      back in 1914 a less than kindly fellow named Ford broke with tradition and started paying his workers the princely sum of $5/day. twice the going rate! part of the reason he did it was so that his employees could afford to buy his cars.

      this could properly be considered the start of the growth of the American middle class. admittedly, the work was hard and dangerous (to a degree) but it was a very good workman's wage. those Ford workers could afford to buy other things as well and the economy was given quite the boost.

      reasonable immigration policy (and not subsidizing the offshoring of jobs) is a beneficial policy for the entire US economy. problem is that it is long-term and nobody thinks that way anymore.

  3. Sam Machin

    Only Half?

    So they've just admitted that they haven't been trying to fill the jobs locally before applying for a visa, time to start rejecting the other half as well I think.

    Now if only the UK would wake up and realise too.....

    1. Ian Michael Gumby Silver badge
      Boffin

      Re: Only Half?

      I wonder if we did an audit of those rejected and see if it was because they lied about the skills they supposedly had, or if there was some other discrepancy in their paperwork?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Only Half?

        I know once we got management to allow us to actually interview people before they shipped over from india, not a single person has sucessfully shown any of the abilities they claimed.

        The "best" of the bunch, that we were forced to accept anyway as there was no alternative, had their visa application rejected. Of course we only found this out when they didn't turn up in the office the day they were supposed to start.

        1. Corinne

          Re: Only Half?

          "I know once we got management to allow us to actually interview people before they shipped over from india, not a single person has sucessfully shown any of the abilities they claimed"

          This, ten times over. I worked on a programme a little while back where the service manager insisted on interviewing all the off shore people who would be working for him. A 3 day visit overseas to confirm the recommended appointments (mostly internal transferees) ended up being about 4 week-long trips to try to find people who were barely adequate let alone good at the job.

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Cheap Labour through the back door.

    They barely reject anyone in the UK, while I don't want to condemn anyone that does want to come here, what I object to is that when they do,not only is their salary/pay alot lower because they continue to be paid in India but also that their taxes are also paid at home.

    It's galling to think that we have people who can do these jobs here, but companies like Tata are playing a game and bringing over low paid workers through the back door of loop holes instead of employing local workers.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Cheap Labour through the back door.

      I've first hand experience of outsourcing to Tata and it was a complete failure. Two projects were outsourced and a bunch of them came here to the UK, we had to train them in the relevant technologies (including java and c++) and even then they failed to deliver and what they did do was absolute drivel.

      The company had to go back to many people they made redundant, most on high contractor rates and the rest on higher salaries which led quite a few of the existing staff that remained leave as they were no offered better rates to match.

      One project ended up costing 4x the amount received for the software and over a year late. At least lessons were learnt and not been repeated (yet).

      1. MrXavia

        Re: Cheap Labour through the back door.

        Similar experience, first time a company I worked out-sourced to india, they had to bring in a very expensive contractor for a few days to fix the mess they were left with AND they had to pay a ransom to get access to certain accounts the indian company had managed to commandeer..

        I then had to outsource some work a few years later, false economy had to dump 90% of the work they did and still pay them!

        While the odd Indian programmer is good, I've worked with a few, I have a policy to NOT outsource to India, so far its always been a mistake!

      2. GrumpyMiddleAgedGuy

        Re: Cheap Labour through the back door.

        The company I worked for had a similar experience with Indian outsourcing. Not only that, our project was fixed price. Once they decided they were gong overtime, they presented us with drivel and walked off site. I was told later that the received about 90% of their fees.

        I despair.

      3. theModge

        Re: Cheap Labour through the back door.

        This is how it always seems to go - heard many stories of it and been involved in one, pretty much the same as above.

        Oddly though, Indian programmers who've lived in the UK for a bit (even "freshies" who came over themselves and weren't born here) are generally at least as good as their UK born counterparts - I've worked with plenty.

        Never understood quite how this makes sense, but it's certainly held true so far. I just assume that those who manage to get here must be very motivated and that this extends to learning to program properly. Discussed it a lot at my last work place, which was heavily British Indian.

      4. Fatman Silver badge

        Re: At least lessons were learnt and not been repeated (yet).

        Yet, some dumb ass member of damagement probably touted thecost savings on his CV.

    2. Guus Leeuw

      Re: Cheap Labour through the back door.

      Dear Sir,

      mind you, this is not only done by alien firms like TCS but also by English/US firms like IBM / HP / Barclays, to name a few...

      I really hate the practice. It undercuts the freelance market enormously. Nowadays you get offered £400 for an architect job... For that amount of money, I can't even begin to set the alarm...

      And indeed, the most appalling aspect really is that they do not even pay local Income Taxes, so it also undercuts the permanent jobs.

      Not fair on anybody, even on the poor Indian who has to live in the UK on a mugger's salary, which is not easy, even given that housing is provided for the people. No wonder you see them come into the canteen with boxes full of rise, and community made lunches... Nothing against that, don't get me wrong, but their standard of living is far far away from what it *should* be (comparing to locals)... It's just too damned profitable for companies to not use this scheme...

      Illegal and immoral from all perspectives... People go to jail for less...

      Regards,

      Guus

    3. Triggerfish

      Re: Cheap Labour through the back door.

      I think some issues comes about from the indian version of "face" that you come across in a lot of SEA cultures as well and can also cause similar problems.

      Its a weird thing and even having been there a while can sometimes catch you out.

      From what I understand you can explain something to an employee and ask them if they understand your instructions. They may actually say that they understand because they do not want you to loose face by looking like you are inadequate at explain your requirements to them. So you'll get a nod and then they will just muddle on through.

      It can be frustrating and lead to odd situations one of my old bosses built a factory in Pakistan and it needed gas burners in it (to dry cotton), no one thought to point out that no gas supply pipes had been fitted before the foundations and factory floor was laid because it would have made someone above look bad.

      My current employer is talking about some work in SEA, (very forthright type A personality). The culture clash could drive them mad.

  5. Rambler88

    --However, Mukherjee told the news site that this is not necessarily the case. “At the junior level (in the US), it’s probably less expensive to hire someone locally than taking someone from India. Everyone thinks getting someone from India would be cheaper, but it’s not true – it’s more expensive at the junior level,” he said.

    Very recently I was having a rather intensive professional conversation with an IT person at a US IT-based company with $80B+ annual revenue. This person has spent a couple of years training lower-level people IT people based in India. Now the offshoring is moving up the ladder, and the company is replacing him and a couple of hundred other mid-level IT people with staff in India. The management's statement was that if they had to hire three (or more, with no limit) offshore Indians to replace one American, they'd do it.

    If three-to-one or more is acceptable for offshored personnel, perhaps one-to-one is acceptable for imported personnel as long as they can get the visas. Facebook and Google are pressing heavily for more tech visas, and I doubt they're only thinking about senior people. I doubt that all of the very numerous Indians here are in senior positions. Perhaps Mr. Mukherjee is lying. I once read about an Indian businessman telling a lie, and I suspect that there have been other instances of which I'm not aware.

    --Gartner has warned that “risk mitigation and contingency planning are strategic imperatives for enterprises with outsourcing deals that utilise India-based talent”.

    Gartner is not lying. My source's comments about the extreme incompetence and dependency of the offshore staff in India bears this out. Those people don't get any smarter when they're shipped over here. Or more likable. Or more intelligible. Or more to be trusted with access to critical data.

    Much of the widely-alleged benefit of offshoring sounds like a typical tunnel-vision fantasy of a stereotypical accountant. As with IT, there are a lot of Indians here working in accounting. I wonder if any of them are pushing both offshoring and importing--and perhaps steering their employers to particular staff sources in India. Of course I wouldn't want to suggest that anyone is taking bribes. No American businessperson--much less a government official--would ever do such a thing, any more than an Indian businessperson would offer a bribe.

    1. Horridbloke

      IT'S CHEEEEEAAAAAP!!!!!

      "Much of the widely-alleged benefit of offshoring sounds like a typical tunnel-vision fantasy of a stereotypical accountant."

      Bingo. I while ago I worked at a UK software outfit that had been bought up by US dot-com lunatics. At one point there were several IT professionals from India visiting the officers on six-month stints and supposedly learning the ropes. The phrase "Don't worry, you're not training up your replacements" was uttered numerous times. A development office was opened in India, the folks there got access to our CM system and the fun really started.

      I'm sure there are lots of educated, capable and very well motivated technical types in India, but the people we were asked to work with were about as good as a random UK-born chav would be if plonked into a development role and expected to produce with no pertinent training. Of course there were language problems to contend with as well. I had the impression the US overlords had travelled to India and hired the cheapest people they could find there.

      This was all a bit ironic considering the cash the people stateside were burning on nice offices and perks, but given they didn't respect the engineering function I suppose it made sense.

      1. MJI Silver badge

        Re: IT'S CHEEEEEAAAAAP!!!!!

        As I have said on a few occasions, the good Indian IT staff are running their own companies in India, or are employed at decent wages for India in one of those companies, or are working alongside you as a decent member of your team.

        They are not much cheaper but generally are very good.

        Beancounters use the inexperienced and not very good.

      2. GrumpyMiddleAgedGuy

        Re: IT'S CHEEEEEAAAAAP!!!!!

        City of London: If you get access to the figures you might find outsourcing is not as cheap as you think. Certainly when our company cast around, they found that all the outsourcing companies charged about the same for the same tasks. (Collusion? No, how could you suggest such a thing?). The quotes came in around 85% of that required to do it locally.

        I guess that makes sense - pay a pittance to those actually doing the job, and charge as much as the market will bear (why charge 30% of local rates when you can charge 85%). Big profit margins.

    2. Ian Michael Gumby Silver badge

      @Rambler

      "Much of the widely-alleged benefit of offshoring sounds like a typical tunnel-vision fantasy of a stereotypical accountant. As with IT, there are a lot of Indians here working in accounting. I wonder if any of them are pushing both offshoring and importing--and perhaps steering their employers to particular staff sources in India. Of course I wouldn't want to suggest that anyone is taking bribes. No American businessperson--much less a government official--would ever do such a thing, any more than an Indian businessperson would offer a bribe."

      I don't think you have to dig that deep to get a reason why you see companies not only onshoring staff but building technical staff over in India.

      First to the bean counter who has his MBA from some school, he is taught that the secret to success is to reduce costs which will increase profits. In IT, that means reducing the cost for staff.

      If all you need are trained monkeys, you go to where you can find the cheapest trained monkey. (If you don't like monkeys, replace it with seals...)

      They don't understand that just because you are a FTE and have the same title as the guy next to you, that you are not equal. They also don't understand that the art in software engineering isn't just to hammer out code that works, but that not only works, but works well and can easily be maintained and extended.

      Another myth is that having code that just works is ok because in 3 years, the next great thing is going to happen so they will end up replacing the system. (Only trouble is that you now have a sunk cost in your software and you want to ride it out because you don't have budget to build the next great thing.)

      The other truth is that the bean counter gets promoted and a bonus for making short term gains, regardless of the long term expense.

      The evidence is that I fail to see one success story here about making things work in an off shore outsourced world.

      How many sites do we see that pop up with 'interview questions' and answers?

      I've even seen one guy boast that he could learn enough to get the job... and I've heard funny 'horror' stories of interviews gone wrong...

      But I digress...

      The point is that until the MBA schools teach manager that Offshoring doesn't work... they will continue to do it.

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    50% Rejection Not Bad

    Wish Cameron and his pet lap dog Clegg could get 50% of economic immigrants to the UK blocked !

    1. Tom 13

      Re: 50% Rejection Not Bad

      Yeah, but that's only 50% on India Indians. For Mexicans it is -50% (that it, we import 50% more than we're legally permitted).

      1. sisk Silver badge

        Re: 50% Rejection Not Bad

        For Mexicans it is -50% (that it, we import 50% more than we're legally permitted).

        Not to defend illegal immigration, but there's a bit of a difference. Indian IT workers are typically doing jobs that would be high paying for Americans and that Americans are willing and able to do.

        Illegal Mexican immigrants, on the other hand, typically do low paying work that Americans are unwilling to do for any kind of affordable wage. I spent a summer doing the kind of work that illegals normally get during the summer between high school and college. It was back breaking manual labor, 60 hour weeks of it, and I made a measly $400 a week.* Few Americans are willing to work those hours for that pay, especially if said work involves a more intense workout than you can get at the gym.

        *They got around minimum wage by making it a flat rate. So much money for each task, the task in this case being to weed a bean field, with the value being determined by how dense the weeds were in the given field, so a field that took longer paid more. I don't recall all the details, this being 15 years ago and me, at the time, being more interested in being handed a check than worrying about how the wage was calculated.

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Meanwhile

    Meanwhile US companies either send yanks abroad to fill senior positions or pull senior job posts back to the homeland so they don't have any ethnics (including Brits) getting any sort of influence.

    USA - the greatest threat to the free world.

    1. Gordon Pryra

      Re: Meanwhile

      Free World?

      Wheres that then?

      1. Andus McCoatover
        Windows

        Re: Meanwhile

        "Free World? Where's that, then?"

        Never fear, Curiosity's near. It'll find it for you unless its power unit fails first.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Meanwhile

      Meanwhile US companies either send yanks abroad to fill senior positions or pull senior job posts back to the homeland so they don't have any ethnics (including Brits) getting any sort of influence

      Sounds a bit like Scottish companies, IME.

    3. Marketing Hack Silver badge
      Headmaster

      Re: Meanwhile

      I know plenty of Brit execs and engineers working in Silicon Valley.

    4. Ian Michael Gumby Silver badge

      @AC ... Re: Meanwhile

      No, the Brits pull us over because the software ideas were developed and integrated here.

      When your management team is so very conservative, you'll watch your intelligent young Brits jump ship from the island and come to the US where they have freedom.

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Xenophobes rule..

    This comment thread is going to get seriously unpleasant. having said that, my experience of TCS and other outsourcing companies has left me somewhat less than impressed.

    Seems they create teams from out of nothing and throw them into your company with incredibly low prices, incredibly high promises and fail to deliver on either, leaving your staff very disillusioned and often resentful.

    Still, your bottom line looks good and those damn IT staff are just a burden on the books.

    1. Khaptain Silver badge

      Re: Xenophobes rule..

      "Xenophobes"

      No, I don't think so. I think that what we are seeing is some of the failings of "Globalisation"....

    2. A Non e-mouse Silver badge

      Re: Xenophobes rule..

      People here do seem to be confusing xenophobia and inexperience.

      As Tom 38 mentions further down, an idiot from any country will write bad code. It doesn't mater if they are from India, China, the UK or the US.

      1. LDS Silver badge

        Re: Xenophobes rule..

        Yes, but managment has a tendency to hire cheap idiots - just because they are cheap - and the cheaper they are, the less they look at their real skills - after all coding is easy, isn't it?

        When they have to shell out more money, they become much more careful about who they hire.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Xenophobes rule..

          "Yes, but managment has a tendency to hire cheap idiots"

          Well, if you've little respect for a job, and think idiots will do, I guess it makes sense to hire from the cheaper end of the idiot pool.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Xenophobes rule..

            I have to say I've worked with a lot of people over the years and I'd say a good 25% have been utterly useless, 50% barely capable, 20% capable, 4% good, 1% excellent.

            Didn't matter where they happened to have be shot out of their mothers vagoo.

            Me? Competent I suppose.

        2. DB2DBA

          Re: careful who they hire?

          "When they have to shell out more money, they become much more careful about who they hire."

          When you look at the spin rate for CEOs I don't think you will find care in hiring decisions being made at US companies whether at the very top or the very bottom.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Xenophobes rule..

      Don't know what this has to do with 'xenophobia' but...the wife works for a very large insurance company. Said company outsourced all of it's IT to India, courtesy of Tata (or some other outfit like it).

      Basically work doesn't get done. The Indian side of the equation constantly lies, saying "this has been done" and even when presented with the evidence that their "work" is garbage, broken, and incomplete...still, it continues. Management has told everyone "they are not allowed to talk about the Indian contractors" despite the constant fuck-ups they cause.

      So who is responsible? Even the VPs are hamstrung because it is the shareholders who WANT this in the name of "savings." But nothing is being saved. I don't know what it takes to get through the thick skulls of the shareholders that the Indians are destroying the company from within.

      50% rejected? In the name of sanity it should be 100%.

      1. Tom 13

        Re: 50% rejected? In the name of sanity it should be 100%.

        I don't have a problem with hiring from outside the country if there really isn't someone inside the country who has the qualifications to perform the work. Problem is, as Tata seems to be admitting, this has nothing to do with there not being anyone here who is available and can do the work. I think the same thing should apply to every country: hire from your own ranks first, then seek additional help from elsewhere when you run out of qualified people.

      2. Triggerfish

        Re: Xenophobes rule..

        I cant help wonder if this sort of thinking is to do with share dividends.

        Short term, hire cheap crappy staff for the next few financial years each April profits look nice so share dividends are high bonuses all round for the board etc. Ten years down the line doesn't really matter does it if your policies fuck up a company for those ten years you get your cash and then bugger off.

    4. sisk Silver badge

      Re: Xenophobes rule..

      I don't think it's xenophobia at all. Outsourcing is, at best, short term gain - long term loss. When you outsource labor you (sometimes) pay less in wages, but you're removing money from the economy that supports your company. A few companies outsourcing a few positions isn't a big deal, but when you have hundreds of companies outsourcing thousands of jobs each that's a lot of money leaving your own economy. When you damage your economy you damage your own bottom line.

      I guess what I'm saying is that it simply doesn't make economic sense in the long run to outsource more than a few jobs, and then only if you can't find local talent able to do it for a reasonable salary.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Xenophobes rule..

        Yes, and there is the catastrophic loss of knowhow - not that the outsorcers' loss is the remote body shops' gain...

        Sadly, I think it is irreversable.

  9. Daniel Palmer

    So the US can expect to see a massive rise in code quality and a dramatic decrease it stuff that has to be totally rewritten from scratch by someone that costs ten times as much but actually knows what they're doing. I wish that all developed nations would actually enforce the "skilled" requirement of these guys visa applications.. by excluding 99% of developers from India, Vietnam etc local people could actually get entry level jobs and big state funded IT projects etc might actually work for once.

    And if you're thinking I'm just being nasty about the foreigners that "took our jobs!" you'll understand once you see 4000+ line classes that are 90%+ identical to 100s of other classes in the same codebase and have to fix it or are bleeding money paying expensive consultants to fix it.

    1. Tom 38 Silver badge
      Flame

      Except you are just being nasty about the foreigners - junior developers who have little experience tend to write bad code, whether they are Indian or from Sacramento. Hiring Merkin does not necessarily improve code quality, only hiring experience improves code quality.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        But employing staff with degrees from a third world university probably doesn't help much either....

        1. Khaptain Silver badge

          Employing people from 3rd world universities is not a problem.

          Employing people from 3rd world universities with no 1st world experience is a problem.

      2. Daniel Palmer

        In my experience the code of an entry level US or UK native is usually on par with that of someone that these companies would claim is "a senior developer". Indian's are apparently born with Java certifications but I've yet to see a piece of Java written by an Indian that:

        Uses packages properly.. yes a mix of hundreds of classes that implement totally different parts of the system is just great.

        Understands how visibility works and uses it properly.. let's make everything public instead of actually thinking.

        Doesn't use singletons all over the place to pass around state instead of structuring the application properly.

        Doesn't contain code ripped straight off of stackoverflow (even funnier when they rip off the non-working code the person asking the question posted..).

        etc etc etc

        If you did a few hour sessions in Java at college or uni you can produce better code than that.

        1. LDS Silver badge

          I've seen that from any highly cheap zone, even in Europe because of state or EU aids and subsidies. There companies rise like mushrooms to find barely skilled workers (the really good ones already found a good job elsewhere...) and try to sell them anywhere the labour cost is higher - and their offer is always the same "our workers are much cheaper than what you can find locally - you'll have huge savings!!!" - and most manager when hear that becomes blind to everything else. They do not check what the real capabilities are with a test project or the like, they jump on the boat dreaming about their bonuses...

      3. LDS Silver badge

        The question is: at the same salary level would they hire them? The answer is a big "NO". I would not enforce legislation to deny visa, I would simply enforce a legislation telling you can't pay less a worker for the same job - no matter how where he's from or where he lives. You will see that the need for "indian IT worker" suddendly evaporates, because the only driver to hire them is how much cheaper they are, regardless of their skills.

      4. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        "Except you are just being nasty about the foreigners - junior developers who have little experience tend to write bad code, whether they are Indian or from Sacramento. Hiring Merkin does not necessarily improve code quality, only hiring experience improves code quality."

        Really? almost no one on my college course would have done such mistakes (thats High School level to you Merkins), if your saying Merkin junior coders are just as bad I am shocked...

        1. Tom 38 Silver badge

          Really? I wouldn't trust most of the people I went to university with to code their way out of a paper bag. The cheap US workers that Tata will hoover up will be of similar competence to the cheap Indian workers that Tata hoover up.

          Their respective cheapness is not a coincidence, they lack either the skills, intelligence, experience or opportunity to command a higher wage.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Well it was a British College, not US Uni, and while they were not all brilliant, they would not have passed the course if they made such mistakes as described....

            1. GrumpyMiddleAgedGuy

              Well, I got a MSc. in IT from one of the worst British Universities and it was a joke. I used to be a high school teacher and the graduates would not have passed high school IT exams. IMHO, the Uni was a machine designed to get primarily overseas students an impressive sounding British qualification for a price.

              Ironically I did the MSc since I have a BSc from University of Queensland, one of the top 100 universities in the world, but it was not acceptable as a pre-requisite for post-grad courses in the UK.

              In the UK, the whole outsourcing, overseas students thing is a joke riddled with people playing the system.

      5. GX5000

        The concern is hiring for the local economy.....

        Why have immigration bring more new Citizens when old Citizens are still available...

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      oh the repetition.....

      I remember one contract where I was shown some VB code from an indian outsourcer, it was 300+ lines, and then they had 'cut-&-pasted' the entire mass 4 or 5 times, changed a couple of values and that was good for them.... I was shocked that any programmer could consider that acceptable... next time I had to outsource to an Indian coder I learned that they are not taught to code they are taught to pass exams,

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        "they are taught to pass exams,"

        Or taught to pay someone else to pass the exam...

        IT qualifications earnied in India are in my experience near universally worthless as an indication of skills / knowledge.

    3. Number6

      ...and big state funded IT projects etc might actually work for once.

      And you were doing so well up until that point. You've strayed beyond the bounds of what's possible.

    4. Ian Michael Gumby Silver badge

      @Daniel Palmer

      That's a different rub.

      Bean counters like the dollar per hour metric.

      They don't grok that you can do with fewer higher priced people and the end result will be working software for an over all lower TCO.

      But here's the rub.

      There's always some idiot who will BS about their ability and demand the higher wage even though they can't do the work. So all the bean counters see is a bunch of consultants wanting more money.

      If you can build the small team of people who can produce results and repeat those results, then you have a winner.

  10. LDS Silver badge

    OOOhhh! At last!

    The average skill and experience of an Indian IT worker is appaling - without being so cheap nobody would hire them. They also grow in a culture that doesn't lead to good problem solving, team working,, and taking responsibilities - and being polite (the worst forum/newsgroup members usually come from India). But managers like them because they usually are "yesmen" and don't discuss bad management decisions - and we all see where it led.

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    At least somewhere has entry criteria.

    Having previously worked with a business who outsourced to the same company, I'm surprised any of their staff got visas. They rotate poor quality staff through at whirlwind speed, half of home can barely use a PC let alone admin an estate. They don't stay on site long enough to be familiar with the nuances of the site before they're pulled back.

    And don't get me started on the shoddy documentation and outright deceit.

    AC for obvious reasons.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: At least somewhere has entry criteria.

      It's all because of translation losses

      US Manager -> I need 10 folk with the right qualifications = Skills

      Vendor Manager -> Yes we hired 10 folks with the right qualifications = Degrees

      Degrees ≠ Skills

    2. Tom 13

      Re: At least somewhere has entry criteria.

      Yes, but only while the immigration bill is temporarily on hold. Once it passes everything will go back to SNAFU.

  12. Andus McCoatover
    Windows

    "But, but, but, Sahib!"

    "I graduated from Starbucks College, and know how to make a good cup of Java!"

    "Java?? OK, you're in!!"

  13. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Short-Termism

    Whilst it might make economic sense *now* to migrate roles to India, with an average inflation rate that is ~3x that in the UK or ~5x that of the USA it is only a matter of time before India prices itself out of the outshore market... I suspect within 5-10 years that companies will start to move out of India and take advantage of/abuse other, cheaper markets

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Short-Termism

      They already are. China, Philippines are both cheaper than India irc. Generally the education/ability level is better in the Philippines too in my experience, maybe not as a country but it seems there has been less farming of IT trainee's than India.

  14. Ian 45

    Economics

    Simple economics, US firms used to save money on Indian outsourcing then Indian wages skyrocketed so no there is no benefit to the US. They now simply move the jobs back onshore to US citizens. Bye bye India.

  15. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    They have to think of their countrie's ecomomy and reduce this trend

    You hire a temp from another country and most of their spending money will leave with them, thus putting nothing back in to the employing company's country.

    Perhaps it is something that all those 'ethical' companies* should think of and try employ locally where possible.

    *Ethical companies are the kind that pride themselves, for example, in not taking bribes to get contracts, even in countries where bribes for contracts are common place

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: They have to think of their countrie's ecomomy and reduce this trend

      Last couple of companies I worked for are 'ethical' like that. Unfortunately keeping principals intact doesn't help compete with other firms in the third world places.

  16. Gerrit Hoekstra
    Facepalm

    1 billion Indians want visas for the USA

    Of course they a few of them will need to be rejected!

    1. Tom 13

      Re: 1 billion Indians want visas for the USA

      Not what the article says. It says the rejection rate is up because of the pending immigration legislation. Which it probably is. I don't want it passed because it will make our sieve even more of a joke than the UK immigration sieve. Ironically, we both have the same problem: neither of our countries are likely to let someone from the other immigrate, but they are happy to let in just about anyone from anywhere else.

      1. Number6

        Re: 1 billion Indians want visas for the USA

        It is possible to move from the US to the UK and vice versa, just a bit harder. The important thing is to find a company willing to pay the right wages, which is not so easy because both countries expect higher wages than some immigrants. Plan B is to marry a citizen, but that comes with its own set of problems and expenses.

  17. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Where I work almost all potential (and actual) new hires for developer roles - are from India. It seems mad to me - we (UK, Europe generally) are in effect filling up the UK with immigrants (nice people, in my experience some - from those that we've hired - are actually pretty good at what they do).]

    Apparently we don't have enough houses - wildlife in the countryside is dying as we "consume" the environment (yes, yes, relax Mr. Smith, you do indeed see lots of green fields from your train window, unfortunately it's not going to be enough) we already cannot feed or support ourselves as a nation.

    Train British people properly - to do the jobs here. Stop companies encouraging people from outside the EU into the country to work on the cheap. I understand the motivation of people to come here - but it's not helping us.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Everything is going to be all right. I can't 'code', but I'm teaching a bunch of five year olds how to 'code'.

  18. Dramoth

    Nothing against our brothers from India and other 2nd and third world countries, but some of their work practices just suck.

    A female friend of mine got a job as a team leader for the ATO many moons ago and was placed in charge of an Indian guy who was also quite 'senior' in terms of tenure. Apparently she had to constantly go to her boss and complain about the guy because she would ask him to do something and he would go off and do something completely different to what she asked. She would also be talking to him and he would just walk off and leave her standing there. He just wouldnt take orders from a woman. Apparently, the guy before my friend was younger than this guy and he wouldnt take orders from him either.

    And then when they did actually manage to get him to do the work assigned to him, it was substandard.

    I studied with a lot of Indians while I was doing my degree 18 years ago and some of them were actually quite talented and could churn out quality code. But then again, those guys were also incapable of working outside of academia and ended up going on and doing masters and PHD's in Australia. And getting jobs lecturing at the uni. The rest of them tended to get done for plagiarism for either copying each others work or for copying directly from books.

    1. I'm Brian and so's my wife

      Almost all of the comments here, including yours, point to poor-quality management that lets down permie staff over and over again. It's exactly that kind of crap that led me to contracting's warm bosom, where I happily reside now.

      We also have a large number of off-shored staff and they aren't especially good. Probably the worst of the lot is a contractor they have out there. We regularly have to redo their work and the company is paying UK contractors' rates to achieve that - such foolishness on their part, but thanks anyway!

    2. LDS Silver badge

      If you come from a culture where that is normal - you don't find reasons to act in a different way, If you've been taught that women can't tell you what to do, that younger people should always pay you respect no matter how, that if you come from an higher caste those from lower ones can't tell you what to do and so on, and you're not clever enough to undestand how silly it is, you're doomed to act like that guy. And especially in an environment like IT which is extremely "meritocratic" that attitude hinders them from learning truly.

  19. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I've only had bad experience of "on-shored" workers from India; by that I mean people who were born, raised and educated in India and are brought to the UK for a short (e.g. 6 month) stint, as opposed to those who have spent a few years over here.

    - They tended to be at about the same standard as bottom level trainee developers from the UK, despite my various employers paying for mid to senior level developers.

    - It was impossible to get a straight answer from them about delivery. If they DID ever give a date/time, it would always be what they thought we wanted to hear & would rarely if ever be met.

    - The comprehension level of what was required was sorely lacking. Unfortunately they would always say yes they did understand what was wanted and were able to deliver it, even if they hadn't understood a word. The usual technique for getting out of this was to just ignore the task in the hope it would go away, or someone else would take it on.

    - Their status awareness would be a big blocker. If they thought you weren't senior in rank to them, everything you said or asked for would be ignored.

    - Their manners were appalling. Littering courtyards (with bins available) with empty coffee cups, dropping cigarette butts on the ground when they were standing right next to an ash tray then laughing at the cleaners who had just swept that area, barging into lifts, barging in stairwells rather than wait a couple of seconds to let someone pass them, pushing in front in queues etc.

    - Those with organisational type roles were pretty useless, e.g. taking 5 days (with a lot of pushing from us) to find out information they were responsible for passing on, then what they told us was already outdated by the time we'd asked for it in the first place and had changed about 3 times since.

    I can't bear to think about the panic they would go into when under time pressure.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      - Their manners were appalling.

      if that's all you're lucky, you should see the issues we have with our toilets! Used toilet paper put in bins instead of down the toilets, plastic cups dropped down toilets, toilets broken because of people squatting on them instead of sitting... We have signs up for UK toilet etiquette, with pictures of how to use one properly.

  20. RainbowTrout

    With the issusing of H1-B visas I thought onus was on the part of the employeer to prove they could not fill the position with permanent residents or citizens?.......

    1. Tom 13

      Re: onus was on the part of the employeer to prove they could not fill the position

      Theoretically. In practice, not so much.

      Case in point from way back in the dark ages (as in, before "outsourcing" was even a buzzword in management circles). I went to uni at a college town. That is if it weren't for the university, you wouldn't be able to find the place on a map. Not necessarily top 10 for computer programming, but a solid and respected department and degree. By luck I landed a tech writing job at a local company. They started work on a computer program and needed to hire on someone full time to work on it. Employment in the town was either federally paid work/study or burger flipping/pizza delivery for students. Did my company find someone from uni to work on the program? Nope. They brought in an H1-B visa, emergency provision because her student visa had just expired. Granted she was knowledgeable, well spoken, and a nice lady, but really? Out of a couple thousand students they couldn't find anyone who wanted that sort of work even part time? I hold her no grudges but I know the system is and has been corrupt for a long, long time.

      1. DB2DBA

        Re: onus was on the part of the employeer to prove they could not fill the position

        Generally, these situations speak to the incompetence of HR.

  21. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    They should reject them ALL

    There is high unemployment in the U.S. and plenty of people to fill jobs. There is no need or benefit to workers from India.

    1. ecofeco Silver badge

      Re: They should reject them ALL

      PERIOD

  22. john80224

    Oh the irony

    The irony of NASSCOM complaining about "discriminatory" behavior us fabulously rich. A business model that discriminates against four protected classes specifically defined in the law (ethnicity, age, gender, religion) and in general one so axiomatic it's implied (citizens) along with skirting pay provisions in immigration law and ignoring labor condition laws now cries foul when a loophole they exposed may be closed. Apparently US law is only good when it can be avoided.

  23. Marketing Hack Silver badge
    Thumb Down

    Tata crocodile tears

    Unfortunately, H1B is so corrupt that an Indian business exec can publicly talk about how U.S. compsci grads are equivalent to junior Indian personnel, and complain about how he U.S. law screens out half the junior guys he tries to bring in place of the U.S. grads. Supposedly, an H1B is only to be used if you can't find the talent you need in the U.S.

    I guess Tata's talent search in the U.S. is limited to the HR manager reading the job req soto voce in her office, and then sourcing the req from India because a qualified U.S. professional didn't magically materialize in front of her desk...

  24. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    We had an indian development dept.

    ... in India near Delhi.

    What a waste. Really, cheap and useless, and their local manager couldn't have organised a piss-up in a brewery.

    While the team were likeable enough chaps and lasses, all sporting advanced degrees, they were to a man (and woman) more or less totally useless.

    Ability to understand the technology. Zero

    Ability to think about a problem. Zero

    Creativity. Minus one.

    And so on. Really, the only attribute they had going for them was that they were a cheap and friendly bunch and did make an effort, but not nearly as cheap as one is led to believe. Basically is was a costly exercise for us with nothing much to show for it except scars. Local staffers in Europe were, measurably, an order of magnitude more productive and the quality of work was not even comparable.

    We have looked to central Europe now. My personal experience with folks from the Baltic, Czechs, Poles etc. in several countries has been uniformly good. These countries have real education systems and there are a staggeringly large number of talented, highly intelligent and very well educated people available. The difference between our central European development team and our former Indian team, is staggeringly large. India is the wrong place to look for talent.

    That being said, I have at least 20 Indian friends and they are all nice chaps. I have never worked with any of them so I cannot attest to their professional competence.

    I no longer invite sub-continentals to job interviews because the CVs are mostly bullshit and I am tired of wasting my time with people with no real skill set. A sharp intellect would be enough, but that is even rarer.

    Anon, obviously

  25. IGnatius T Foobar
    WTF?

    STOP *ALL* H1B

    If there are *any* Americans looking for work, there should be *no* H1B visas granted. Considering that we are still feeling the effects of the Obama Recession and 10% of the US workforce is unemployed, there are NO valid reasons why anyone should be allowed to hire H1B's.

    This is as clear as day. Stop ALL the H1Bs. NOW.

    1. ecofeco Silver badge
      Alert

      Re: STOP *ALL* H1B

      You got everything right except who caused the recession.

      Obama was NOT in office in 2007 nor 2009. The recession started with the Wall St meltdown in 2007-2008 and was caused by the previous ten years of the unregulated financial market passing off worthless CDOs and other junk securities starting the very instant Glass Steagall was repealed.

      Google Wall St meltdown.

      The deregulation was more or less approved by the average person because their wages had been driven down by H1Bs and other professional temp immigration jobs programs (oh, you didn't know there were others?) as well as millions of jobs being sent overseas for decades, leaving them with only the Wall St casinos and the horse trading of real estate to make up the loss.

      So yes, there is no excuse for importing workers. It is nothing short of treason when unemployment is very high.

      1. DB2DBA

        Re: STOP *ALL* H1B

        I agree with the sentiment but, it's not gonna happen. What should happen however is that issuance of H1Bs should be tied to the unemployment rate. Once the rate falls below 3 percent, H1Bs are allowed. For each additional 1 percent drop in unemployment, the number of visas issued are increased by a fixed amount.

  26. Gordon Pryra

    This article has decended into racism a bit faster than I expected.

    While the article is about visas being rejected, the forum is about the quality of Indian labour being crap.

    This is not so, but the people being hired for 2 beans and a shoe lace are what you can expect for that money.

    Some of the best people I work with are based out of India, (IBM have a strong presence there) then again, I’ve hung up on a fair number from there as they are not worth wasting my time talking to.

    The Xenophobia from the Spetics I find hard to take in, you country was made of foreign devils it’s makes you “you”. From the English, well we are allowed to be Xenophobic despite being possibly the most mongrel people in any country (we have French blood in in FFS)

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: This article has decended into racism a bit faster than I expected.

      "but the people being hired for 2 beans and a shoe lace are what you can expect for that money"

      But 2 beans and a shoelace can feed a family for a day in India!

      "From the English"

      Well we did leave india with most of the vestiges of civilisation that it still possesses - like it's railway system - but unfortunately you havn't moved on much since we left!

      "the most mongrel people in any country "

      Obviously you havn't got your US VISA yet...

  27. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    IT services company I work for is in the process of outsourcing some of our lower tier work to India.

    I went there for a few weeks to get the office set up and to show the techs the ropes.

    The staff there are very friendly, and more than happy to do the work that our local guys grumble about. I had a great time with them when I was there, and really like them as people.

    However, they have aprox 1/10 the skill of a local tech. Entry level techs that we hire here in 'merika generally know Windows fairly well, may have some server experience, probably understands what a router is/does, and generally have a few other skills.

    The techs we hired in India know 1 thing each. Sure, they're 1/5 the price, but you have to hire 10 of them to get the same skill cross-section. 1 guy knows how to use RDP. Another guy knows what a "service" is. Another one knows what an IP address is for. Dog forbid you need someone to log in to a client site and make a change to a router - something that takes me 2 mins will take 3 of them hours to do and I have to spend 30 mins answering questions like "why can't I SSH to 10.0.0.1 from my PC - the docs say that's the client's router IP?" When the "router guy" doesn't know that he needs to connect in to the client environment before trying to connect to their router you KNOW you have a problem.

    Now, all that being said, I fully agree with the guy earlier who stated that there are great techs in India, it's just that they're already working, and the ones we're getting are obvs diploma mill recipients who are incapable of working thru a problem if the exact steps aren't immaculately detailed in a spreadsheet. I'm not saying all Indian IT workers are shite, but the ones we hired certainly are.

    Sadly, we're now locked in to a 2 year contract with them and are desperately trying to find any work that they're capable of so we're not just burning their salaries. :(

    (AC, cuz my boss would be pissed for airing laundry and kvetching)

  28. foobar12

    This is payback for the Devyani case.

    India thought they could flex their muscles and cut the US Embassy privileges as a payback for America arresting that Indian diplomat for VISA fraud and underpaying her maid. I for one am glad the US is putting a stop to all these shenanigans.

  29. Bracdiver

    Rules

    Funny how they claim discrimination and yet they will only hire someone here locally as a last resort. Now they have to follow the same hiring rules as most honest companies in the US. They may actually have to make sure the people they hire are actually qualified to do the job.

  30. This post has been deleted by its author

  31. agricola
    FAIL

    ONLY HALF?! THAT MEANS THAT TATA STILL HAS ALL THOSE PEOPLE TO RUIN PRODUCTS!

    "Tata says USA rejecting HALF of Indians' work visa requests "

    Perhaps that's because one can see direct evidence of the quality of Tata's work in what they have done to Jaguar/Land Rover since they bought it/them.

    Turn out sh*tty work and then bitch about the people who complain. Tata has learned its lessons well from us..

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