Do dishwashers really blunt knives

This topic was created by Simon Rockman .

  1. Simon Rockman

    Do dishwashers really blunt knives

    I'm told I should not put sharp knives in the dishwasher because it will blunt them.

    What is the mechanism by which this happens or is it a myth?

    Simon

    1. Pete Smith 2

      Re: Do dishwashers really blunt knives

      My take on this:

      I have had a 9" Sabatier knife for just over 20 years.

      It's been sharpened with a steel whenever it needed it (every few uses) - the steel is now worn out, but the knife *blade* is fine.

      However, the overall structure of the knife is a stainless steel blade & tang. It's an encapsulated tang though - the knife tang and end of the blade is wrapped in an aluminium sheath, and that's then inside the black plastic handle.

      Because the encapsulating material is aluminimum, the highly caustic dishwasher tablets have eroded it, which means the blade is now slightly loose in the handle.

      Since I realised this was happening, I've stopped putting it in the dishwasher, but the damage is done.

    2. Oh Homer
      Headmaster

      Re: Do dishwashers really blunt knives

      No.

      However, the dishwasher powder might, since it contains highly alkaline compounds like trisodium phosphate, unless that powder also contains a corrosion inhibitor like sodium silicate.

      Although "inhibiting" is not quite the same as "preventing", and so persistent long-term exposure to these chemicals will eventually degrade the materials, including dulling the edge (although that's the least of your concerns, since the rest of the knife is also deteriorating).

      This is why professional chefs never put their expensive knives into the dishwasher (indeed they typically don't even trust them to the kitchen porter, but clean them personally).

    3. Mike Rodgers

      Re: Do dishwashers really blunt knives

      They get dull because the average person tosses them in the silverware basket with everything else - and it gets beat to death during agitation by the other utensils.

    4. Chozo
      Joke

      Re: Do dishwashers really blunt knives

      I'm told I should not put sharp knives in the dishwasher because it will blunt them.

      Well.. If your technique is poor then striking bone is a real posability.

  2. Zacherynuk

    There is no such thing as a sharp knife. Only a knife which has been sharpened well.

    You should re-hone your edge prior to every use (within reason) store the knife well (I use a straw stabby-style knife holder, but magnetic ones are also good.

    The edge can be diminished in a dishwasher due to the copious chemical and especially the sodium content, but seriously, if your knife-ware is of such poor quality that it is substantially impacted by this, then you have bought some really criminally poor shit, or you are washing it 12 hours a day every day.

    Get a half decent knife sharpener (~£10) and forget about it.

    The real questions in the kitchen are to do with quality (or otherwise) pans in the dishwasher. Do some research on Teflon & PFOA. Nice to have, but better to learn to cook properly ;)

    1. Fred Flintstone Gold badge

      Get a half decent knife sharpener (~£10) and forget about it.

      Sorry, no. Those half-decent are actually rubbish, because you end up cutting with burrs rather than a honed edge. A standard steel is the best to keep the blade inline and in condition, provided you do it regularly and you use a knife of decent quality steel.

      1. Nym

        Um, sorry, no

        If you want to keep them actually sharp you're stuck with traditional methods, although carborandum stones are no longer necessary (there are diamond stones for the rough-cut start) progressing up to and through the standard oil stone.

        Steels are maintenance, they don't sharpen terribly well. That's why butchers hire people to sharpen their knives past a certain point.

        And yes, cooking knives in dishwashers tend to be able to bang against other metal objects, resulting in nicks and eventual loss of the edge

  3. Simon Rockman

    So if I store the knives well and sharpen regularly I don't need to hand wash them?

    1. Hungry Sean

      careful there

      you're getting some potentially really bad advice above.

      If you knives are stainless steel, dishwasher use may be ok-- in fact, many restaurant grade knives are designed for this. However, some of the best blades are high carbon steel (much sharper). You don't want any water sitting on carbon steel (rusting) and it tends to be more sensitive to chemicals.

      Also, would recommend you be careful about sharpening. You don't want to actually do this often, you want to steel your blade at every use and sharpen as needed. Sharpening is a really good way to permanently destroy a blade if you don't know what you're doing and there are lots of cheap and not so cheap sets that will help you with that. In particular, most of the sharpeners that have two carbide bits (sometimes disks, sometimes rods) you pull your blade through and the electric sharpeners are recipes for destroying your edge. I've successfully used and would recommend the Lansky youtube demo here, but in general you shouldn't need to sharpen a lot and if you're about to buy a high-end knife, it should come from the factory with a pretty darn good edge. Read the manual for any sharpener you get carefully before you go and use it. Or, visit your local butcher and find out who they get to sharpen their knives. The key though, is a nice, long, steel (longer is easier to use and less work) with consistent, low pressure strokes.

      1. Walternate

        Re: careful there

        From my understanding, the alkali used in dishwasher "soap" causes decarburization (or decarbonization) at the knife edge, essentially leaving a rough surface...so not a rust issue, but a lack of sharp edge issue. I think some commercial dishwashers don't even use an alkali, rather high pressure water and steam, thus maybe in commercial world this is not an issue.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: careful there

        In particular, most of the sharpeners that have two carbide bits (sometimes disks, sometimes rods) you pull your blade through and the electric sharpeners are recipes for destroying your edge

        Personally I think those things should be flat out banned because they're dangerous. You end up with an edge which consists mainly of burrs. Sure, it'll cut really well afterwards - maybe twice if you're lucky - but you have just made an incredible mess.

        Concur 100% with the steel observation - there is no substitute. You can follow up with a belt, but that's for perfectionists or cut throat razors :)

  4. Zacherynuk

    Hmm, whilst I have to agree with some of what HS said, I think that it all depends on the knife.

    Prior to using the knife make a test cut, if that isn't clean, then sharpen the knife, this is just basic safety. I have used knives for butchery which have lasted years, being used 5 hours a day and sharpened sometimes twice a day+ especially when bones are involved.

    The sharpener you use, if you aren't a knife geek is very important - butt there are plenty of simple ones on the market that do a great and safe job, you are honing, not grinding! A very important difference!

    Regarding water / chemical corrosion. Slicing anything will get the knife wet and keep it wet. Slicing something like apples (especially) will pit the metal - high carbon metal very quickly. Many chefs I have talked to actually state that high carbon knives are not sanitary.

    Bear in mind, of course, of all the equipment in the kitchen, the knife is amongst the easiest to wipe clean and store dry anyway!

    As far as dulling the knife goes, storage and chopping board are just as important as washing.

    At home:

    I like this style of block: http://www.redferret.net/?p=17354 (though there are alo ones with none edge contact slots which are good)

    I am happy using this style of sharpener: http://www.lakeland.co.uk/14747/Robert-Welch-Signature-Knife-Sharpener?src=gfeed&gclid=CPKtjZ7uvLoCFWfLtAod-ScAsw

    I use Wusthof knives, I have a favourite knife for all prep work and this is this top one: http://www.wusthof.com/desktopdefault.aspx/tabid-75/105_read-950/317_view-121/categories-121/country-gbr/wlang-2/categories-210 - used extensively for many years and in the dishwasher at least 4 times a week probably.

    But to answer your question, the mechanism by which this happens is oxidisation. The chemicals in the fruit / dishwasher / vegetables will do several things to increase the rate of corrosion. They help water be attracted to the metal (or rather they attract water full stop), and they help make the water a better conductor so the atoms in the oxidisation process can move more freely - this is a catch 22 style and obviously the most affected part will be the thinnest part, which is the edge.

    1. Hungry Sean

      good points. Ceramic (as used in the sharpener you suggest) is much less likely to screw up a blade than carbide. Personally not a fan of that style sharpener, but maybe because I've seen too many people mess up nice cutlery.

      this is what I normally use-- takes and holds a great edge, unquestionably dishwasher friendly, and not at all expensive.

      http://www.foodservicewarehouse.com/dexter-russell/s145-12pcp/p8634.aspx

      I have used Wusthof and Sabatier knives in other people's kitchens, but they've always been disappointingly dull in comparison to my $20 knife. Which goes to the general point of this discussion that you can have the most expensive and best equipment, but if you don't treat it right it won't perform.

      1. MonkeyCee Silver badge

        It is indeed much more about what you do with it, rather than quality of your tools.

        I worked in a catering shop that did a large range of knives (House of Knives in Petone) when I was at school, so got to see the people buying the full sets of forged Wusthof for looks, as well as lots of actual cooking professionals. Best way to sell someone was to let them chop up some carrots with a good example of each knife type, and let them decide. We also supplied the local catering college, and made sure they got good knives rather than the shit they get palmed off on some others.

        Also lots of demonstrating steels and sharpening. Steels is nice and easy, you are drawing the blade across the lines in a smooth cutting motion at a 20 degree angle (roughly a quarter of a right angle) with firm but not hard pressure. The "safe" way is to put a steel vertical point down on a chopping board, and cut down it, so you should not cut anyone. A steel "realigns" the fine edge of the blade, pushing it back into alignment. Sharpening is cutting a new fine edge. You can steel your blade on pretty much any hardish metal, I've used the spine of other knives before in a pinch (and steel worktops, palette knives, pan lids etc)

        As far as sharp knives go, proper butchers are the fussiest. It's the literal profit margin. But short of the cleaver and cooks knife, pretty much all butchery knives are flexible. Hence tend to be steeled often and sharpened more than any other knife.

        For kitchen work, either a light, narrow high grade stamped steel blade or a more weighty forged blade will suit, depending on your budget and feel. Handle comfort is important. I've had professionals swear by each, the lighter blades need to be steeled or sharpened more often, but are less tiring and cheaper. If you need a single large cooks knife (over 10") then you mainly need the length as leverage, so a $30 Victorinex is as useful as a $400 for splitting pumpkins.

        My biggest problem with Wusthof is they started making rolled steel stuff that looks like their forged stuff. I've spent a few thousand hours in kitchens using a Wusthof as my workhorse, with Victorinex for my paring knives.

        My last work knife was a 9" Classic that was about 5mm thinner from repeated sharpening, and so the bottom inch or two worked as a cleaver (with a wider edge ground on it), and the rest as a normal knife. I won it in a poker game, and traded it away for bag of weed. That was a proper cooks knife :)

        As for not being able to tell the difference, I've always been the one with all the kitchen kit in flats, and after the "knife talk" (I have plenty of normal ones, so the few that I'll get mad if you break I'll highlight, and the others can be wrecked) the flatties will use them. And have strong preferences for the Wusthofs. And when flats have moved on, and we run into each other, they always mention that they missed having sharp knives.

        Going back to selling them to people, if they are both sharp, you'll notice the difference with a forged knife over a non forged one. Not one that by itself justifies paying 5-10x the price, but there is. If you can't tell the difference, then either they are blunt, or they are rolled steel Wusthofs. In which case, then there isn't any real difference, apart from the handles.

        Dishwashers blunt knives when they get knocked against other things, as well as all the other noted parts. In general, knives need sharpening after a bit of use. At home, the wear on the edge from the dishwasher (assuming it gets washed after making dinner for 4) is probably as much as it gets from cutting things. All in all, probably going to have sweet FA effect on the blade. Handles, maybe a different story. Wood sucks for dishwashers, but is less problematic if ignited.

        In terms of bang for your buck, a rolled stainless steel cooks knife (german, french or chinese) with a handle that fits your paw, ditto for a paring knife, is perfect. For a knife that will outlast you, forged ftw. I swore I'd never get a forged paring knife (frippery! It'll get thrown away with the peelings!) but got given one as a gift and use it for everything.

        As for high carbon knives, I can't think of anyone who sells them for cookware, other than handmade stuff. You want harder, more brittle for cutting. And if you wanted flexibility, you just make a massively cheaper rolled steel. They have a use (easy to resharpen, hard to snap), but they rust like buggery.

        TL, DR: Get Wusthof Classic or Grand Prix forged knives if you can afford it. All good rolled steel knifes are basically equal. Handles are important. Dishwasher safe knives are fine in dishwasher.

  5. Cliff

    My beloved can and does destroy any blade by using carving knives to strip willow, etc. You try to cut anything in our kitchen and it makes no difference if you use the 'sharp' or blunt edge. She also objects if I attempt to re-grind them as they become 'too sharp and dangerous'.

    The sharpest knife we have is actually a good quality stainless steel butter knife with a bone handle (which has become dyed pink, goodness only knows how) - somehow it has stood up to punishment the actual chopping, paring etc knives wilt at.

    1. Swarthy Silver badge

      I am guessing that you have tried to argue that sharp knives are safer, because you know where they will go, use less pressure, etc.?

      Although, don't try the argument that sharp knives are better because you won't feel it as much if you do cut yourself. That one does not fly.

    2. sisk

      She also objects if I attempt to re-grind them as they become 'too sharp and dangerous'.

      If my wife said something like that she would get laughed at and told to think about what she's saying. We've had exchanges like that, going both ways, many times.

      Knives are SUPPOSED to be sharp and dangerous. That's why you don't let little kids cut up their own steak. But as was mentioned above a very sharp blade is far less dangerous in the kitchen than a kinda sharp blade.

    3. Grahame 2

      IMO a blunt knife is more dangerous than a sharp one. With a blunt knife you have to use more force and have less control. But I don't have kids to worry about.

      I use a ceramic wheel sharpener with Global knives, the type you put a bit of water in and it works great.

      I don't use a dishwasher on them, but when I wash them I NEVER let go of the handle, cos having that blade lurking hidden in the washing up would be stupid.

      1. Cliff

        Oh I fully agree about blunt knives being waaaayyy more dangerous, but I also don't cut towards myself ffs. Pick your battles in this life, that's not one I'm going to win.

  6. Kubla Cant Silver badge

    Ceramic

    My ex-wife puts knives in the dishwasher, and hers are always blunt. Mind you, they're crap knives to start with. The other problem is that the knife is always in the dishwasher when you need it.

    I've never used a sharpener - the grinding noise as you drag the blade through it sounds too much like damage happening. For the past couple of years I've been using a ceramic "steel" , and I find it much more effective than the steel steel I used before. When I bought my insanely expensive Global knife, I couldn't persuade myself to get an £80 Global ceramic steel as well. I subsequently found a ceramic steel in Ikea, for £10 IIRC. Actually, the top-of-the-range knives I bought in Ikea are pretty good, too, and much cheaper than Global.

    @Hungry Sean: "Sabatier" isn't a brand. It used to be a name used indiscriminately by manufacturers in Thiers , the French equivalent of Sheffield, but more recently it just describes any French-style cooking knife, typically with a triangular blade and a black handle.

    1. MonkeyCee Silver badge

      Re: Ceramic

      Never saw the point in Global. Looks cool, average steel quality, no bolster. Handle is OK in normal position, but lack of bolster means (for me anyway) when holding it with the blade in a pinch, the side of my middle finger is against a straight and rather uncomfortable edge. Hardly sold any either, but that's more just bad price point. You could get a forged one for the same price, or comparable one for a quarter of the price.

      A steel is a steel. Cheap works just fine :)

  7. Paddy

    Ceramic knives?

    Can they go in the dishwasher?

    Do they need to be re-sharpened by their manufacturer?

    1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

      Re: Ceramic knives?

      1) Yes

      2) No

      Ceramic blades hardly ever get blunt but they are very brittle so it depends what use them for and especially what the chopping surface is like. If you chop quickly, say your slicing carrots, on a hard surface you'll quickly splinter it; on a softer surface you'll get years of use.

      If a ceramic knife does need sharpening you can do it with an electric device but much better to take it to a knife shop and let them do it.

      1. Terry Cloth

        Re: Ceramic knives?

        A friend uses ceramic knives, and curiosity led me to check the edge with a jeweler's loupe. The wear process was chipping, with still-sharp bits between the chips. Looked to me as if it was turning itself into a serrated knive with a sharp, intermittent edge. I suspect it'll stay super sharp until most of the original edge is gone.

        Can anyone who actually knows what they're talking about expand on this?

        Note to webmaster: We really need an icon of someone talking through a hat.

  8. Eddy Ito Silver badge

    I imagine the mechanism is people putting them in the same basket perhaps with other assorted utensils and the water jets simply jostle them all together. They then find the sharpened edge softened by tines, handles and whatnot.

    Speaking for myself, I don't put my good knives in the dishwasher for two reasons. First I've had one cut through the plastic basket and get beat up by the spinning whirly-gig underneath and second was me being a bit careless when unloading, and having decided that blade up was better, that left a nice scar on my left index finger. Now I wash, dry and store the sharp knives individually to avoid both problems.

  9. cheveron

    corrosion

    I've noticed corrosion on my V-Sabatier knives since my wife has been putting them in the dishwasher. I can't say if they are getting dulled by the process as she also sharpens them regularly with a grinder. I'm willing to believe stainless is more hygienic, but it won't hold as keen an edge as non-stainless. After sharpening with a pocket whetstone, my sailmaker's knife will cut through eight layers of flax sail cloth without much effort. I can't get the same edge on my rig knife, but then it has to deal with salt water.

    1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

      Re: corrosion

      The dishwasher powder, and especially the softening salt, promote corrosion. How heavy the corrosion is will depend to some extent on the hardness of the water: harder water needs more softening and more softening will mean more corrosion. There are tabs that you can buy that are designed for use with steel and silver (even more susceptible to corrosion) that I find really* do make a difference and now I only use them when washing knifes or pans.

      In general, however, knives are easiest washed by hand. If you do wash them in the dishwasher then use the special tabs, use the shortest, gentlest cycle and take them out and dry them as soon as the cycle has ended.

      * I recently bought a pH-meter to help identify the best water filter for the very heavy calcium content in the water here, so I do take these things perhaps a little too seriously.

    2. MonkeyCee Silver badge

      Re: corrosion

      Since I managed to miss it in my spiel above, you are absolutely correct. High carbon needs more frequent sharpening, but can hold a finer (thus sharper) edge. It's softer, and will also take more abuse before snapping or cracking.

      Even if you decide they are too unhygenic for the kitchen, they work great as hunting or butchering knives :)

  10. sisk

    It's a combination of factors. First and foremost there are corrosive chemicals in your dishwasher. They're not going to hurt most of your dishes, but the edge on a blade is surprisingly delicate (well, most blades anyway). Unless you've got a VERY good knife it's not going to be able to stand up to that. Second, people tend to throw all their silverware, knives included, in one basket. The rub up against each other as the dishwasher runs. Now considering that a glass cutting board can do some serious damage to your blade, imagine what a steel fork will do. Third, the blades don't get dried as quickly in the dishwasher as when they get hand washed. Water isn't good for steel. Even stainless steel can only take so much sitting around in water before it starts to feel the effect.

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Having got myself into straight razor shaving you learn a lot about sharp edges and keeping them sharp. Stropping them on leather will get the edge back to normal. After a while you will need to sharpen using a sharpener though.

    1. Zacherynuk

      Even against your forearm! Try it! I haven't changed my blade in 5 years. Just run it down your forearm half a dozen time before you use it (wet) and voila - everlasting shaving blade. (long or mach 3 stylee)

  12. Scroticus Canis
    Boffin

    Always wash the sharp blades by hand and individually.

    Dishwashers use cleaning agents that has a grit like component which sandblast the dirt off as much as the detergent dissolving grease and they use a high pressure jet to do it. It's this which dulls the edge of the sharp knives more than the chemicals. Just check plates that have had a life of dishwasher cleaning, there are minute scourings which cut into the glaze which you don't get from hand washing and it also removes patterns/pictures from sand etched glasses.

    I find that a diamond coated steel is the best way of keeping a good hone on my knives (as well as not letting others use them!) but you need to be able to keep a constant angle of blade to steel (about 17 degrees) or you are wasting your time. If the diamond-steel is new it cuts metal very fast and the inexperienced can ruin an edge in a couple of strokes but they OK for a regrind; thus I always have two, one new and rough the other old and smooth which is used daily for the touch up.

  13. Will Godfrey Silver badge

    Hopeful

    Can someone buy me a dishwasher so I can try this out for myself please?

  14. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I never knew what sharp was...

    I never knew what sharp was until I got a Spyderco Sharpmaker set. The stones are excellent, and the base provides a very simple (upright is easy for eye to judge) means of getting the angle right. It takes most of the skill out of the job, but not all of it. It is fairly easy to sharpen a kitchen knife so it will shave arm hairs effortlessly --- but it still requires time, patience and some work. You can use the stones independently of the base to sharpen just about anything ---with as much skill as you can muster--- so this kit does not limit one.

    Quick and easy version is my Chef'sChoice 2-stage hand sharpener. No shaving, at least not with my knives, but much much quicker to get to fine-slice-a-ripe-tomato stage. In other words: quick and useful! But also much more aggressive on the knives. I'd like an electric one, but that would be shere luxury for an occasional cook, even one who sharpens the knife almost every time. Chef'sChoice seem to be *the* choice of electric sharpener, unless one moves to workshop kit.

    My knives are carbon steel. They get sharp more easily; they get blunt quickly; they stain, and rust if left wet. Do pro cooks still use these things? I doubt it. Stainless knives are so very much better these days than they were decades ago. If I were young, today, in my first home, it would probably be stainless all the way --- with a Chef'sChoice pro 3-stage electric sharpener which does honing and steeling as well as grinding.

    But I still would probably not buy a dishwasher. Washing up is just not *that* much hassle. So I wouldn't be asking about putting my knives in one!

  15. Andraž 'ruskie' Levstik

    I prefer manual sharpening

    But then I tend to use japanese style knives. I also clean them after use not put into a dishwasher. Only really need to resharpen every 6 months or so. But then my kitchen probably has more blades than any other utensils.

  16. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Can you keep the discussion focused, please?

    Having debated this point with my brother for years (basically I think that dishwashers should do no harm and he does not get his knives even close to it), I came to this topic with high expectations of being able to finally settle the debate. Only to find a really long thread where people mostly expose their cutting preferences. Please, restrict yourselves to the point: is a knife safe in the dishwasher?

  17. Don Jefe
    Boffin

    Sharp stuff from an engineers perspective on keeping it sharp

    There's a lot of good advice and some bad above. That said knives (or any sharp thing) are like women, wine and beer, it's what works for you that really matters. Not what some knob at the cutlery store sold told you. How you use the sharp thing determines what 'sharp' is, as noted above, there's no such thing as 'sharp' just well done and task appropriate sharpening/honing.

    Now for the Big Question: Does a dishwasher dull a blade? The answer is no. However, as others have noted, water/minerals/chemicals inside the dishwasher will have a negative impact on how cleanly you cut your (thing).

    The sharp part of any sharp blade is made at the very, very, very edge of the blade and is defined by the angles at which the two sides of the knife intersect. The actual part that does the cutting can be seen under 20x magnification, but everything behind that intersection has no effect on the sharpness of the blade, only how the body of the blade interacts with the material as it follows the sharp edge (again, ideally the blade is purpose designed, ie: bread knife).

    As the actual sharp part is very small, it is highly susceptible to mineral deposits and corrosion (even stainless and ceramic) that are not visible to the naked eye. Those deposits most certainly have a negative effect on sharpness but are somewhat intensified because they are carried and deposited as particulates in the steam inside a dishwasher instead of being carried away as they are under running water. The steam deposits a nice even coating of particulates across the entire edge.

    Another factor is the 'wire edge' created during most abrasive sharpening processes. A stone or burnisher leaves a teeeeny little piece of metal (or ceramic) just past the actual intersection of the two sides of a blade. It is a function of the sharpening and can not be eliminated in process: Removing it is another step (below). Cheap knives are left with this edge intact intentionally, as it is very sharp but it breaks off easily, which is the leading reason cheap or poorly sharpened knives go dull quickly, this unsupported wire edge breaks off. The act of placing a knife in the dishwasher is almost perfect for breaking this edge off as well, but in this case it's the rack that's doing the damage, not the water itself.

    In any case, putting water on knives, of any material, is the main issue and it is only intensified by the dishwasher, but the water itself is the problem.

    Lastly, a well sharpened knife will stay that way for many decades of home use with 20 seconds on a leather strop after you sharpen it with a stone, a burnisher or cleaning it. Unless you drop it or stab someone hit something hard like a bone you don't need aggressive sharpening. All you are doing is removing excess material from the blade and repeatedly creating, and subsequently breaking off in use, a wire edge. A strop cleanly removes that wire edge (as opposed to breaking it off) and keeps the actual intersection of the sides even and clean (sharp). Even the finest diamond hones are too coarse at the microscopic level where a strop works. Additionally, it looks totally badass when you break out an old school strop before you cut into the sacrificial holiday animal and your knives will last exponentially longer. My cooking knives were made for my family by a New Hampshire blacksmith in 1784, they've seen sharpening stones exactly 13 times in all those years and they are unbelievably sharp, just from a good stropping after cleaning and before use. It only takes a few seconds.

    1. Stacy

      Re: Sharp stuff from an engineers perspective on keeping it sharp

      OK - you beat me. I'm happy that I have the knives that put my mum through chef school about 30 years ago. When she gave up cooking she passed them to me. I've had them since 2000.

      And after that time they are still the sharpest I have ever used, with them being honed on the steel twice a year at most when my mum visits - she can do that far better than I can, and I really believe in knowing what you are good at, and what you should get someone else to do :)

      As to topic, I have been told I can put them in a dishwasher by various people, but couldn't bring myself to do it! It's not like they take long to wash by hand (you just have to be careful)

      1. Uffish

        Re: Sharp stuff ...

        Upvoted for "It's not like they take long to wash by hand...".

  18. Don Jefe

    Steels

    I forgot to add, there is no such thing as a 'sharper' type of steel. High carbon steel sharpens to a ridiculously sharp level easier than stainless or high speed steel, but the end result isn't 'sharper'.

    1. disgruntled yank Silver badge

      Re: Steels

      I have never been able to put a decent edge back on stainless steel. No doubt there are tools to do it, but I haven't found them.

  19. offal

    Orwellian

    “The creatures outside looked from guardian to register, and from register to grauniad, and from register to grunublugh again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.”

  20. mike 19
    Stop

    the dishwasher temperature was detrimental to the handles on my henckles knives

    i had 2 roommates that would use my knives and then put them in the dishwasher to wash instead of wiping them down which i was used to doing while chefing my way throughcollege for an it degree. the knives cost quite a bit and i was a little upset that they were put in the dishwasher to clean, especially when i noticed the cracked handles when retrieving them. the care instructions that come with the knives specifically say 'no dishwasher' and now i know why.

    the hot/cold, expansion/contraction effect on my henckles professional s series knives caused the black plastic handles to crack on a 10" chef knife and a 4" paring knife. i think this is due to the knives being full tang construction and the plastic handle bits being riveted onto the full tang. the knives were replaced under the lifetime warranty. i've always had my knives professionally sharpened and only use a honing steel on them to straighten the edge out and they were only washed a couple of times in the dishwasher so i can't comment on them being dulled with an automatic wash.

  21. Zacherynuk

    Thread summary: TLDR :)

    Blades: ok

    Handles: iffy

    Word of the day: "Stropping"

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Word of the day: "Stropping"

      Only until someone says, "Whetting!"

  22. Herby

    Does it really matter?

    It all comes down to "she who must be obeyed". No more, no less. So, I refrain from putting knives in the dishwasher, and use an oil stone to sharpen them at reasonable intervals. Between that, the steel works well.

    Now, for a definitive answer one needs to try to get Mythbusters to do a complete survey on the subject. There ARE lots of variables: Water type, detergent, additives temperature, length of exposure, knife composition, just to name a few.

    So, after you pay the Nordstrom's bill, keep them out of the dishwasher. Peace and domestic tranquility will follow.

    1. Lars
      Mushroom

      Re: Does it really matter?

      Oh no, not the Mythbusters, they will only shoot the knives and blow up the dishwasher.

      1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge
        Mushroom

        Re: Does it really matter?

        @Lars

        They could teach Lester a thing or two about launching appliances into space. I still enjoy seeing waterheaters overheating!!

        1. Lars
          Mushroom

          Re: Does it really matter?

          @John Brown

          Yes I saw that program, and as I have a big old waterheater in my house I decided to keep that door locked as I remember my self too well as a teenager. I used to like the Mythbusters but today I get fed up half way through the introduction which seems to become longer and longer. I have had enough of all the shooting, crashing and explosions. Fine that they have not started yet to show us how to make efficient and cheep explosives at home,

          1. Sooty

            Re: Does it really matter?

            I got fed up with every episode of mythbusters consisting of about 5 mins of actual content, the rest is

            what we are about to do

            what we've just done,

            what we'll do after the break

            what we did before the break

            arsing about

            .

            .

            .

            blow something up!

  23. C. P. Cosgrove

    Dishwasher - what's that ?

    My wife has a dish washer - it's called Chris ! But that doesn't matter because I do most of the cooking and the knives are MINE !

    Hot water from the tap to clean, and a rub with a steel to sharpen. The only one that shows signs of rust is the tattie (sorry - potato) peeler, and I haven't worked out how you sharpen one of them yet. Anyway, the rust comes off after the second spud and the human body needs a certain quantity of iron in any case.

    Chris Cosgrove.

    1. Lars
      Happy

      Re: Dishwasher - what's that ?

      It's not iron but a cocktail of stuff your body does not need at all. I was told that in old days you could stick an iron nail into an apple for some time and then eat the apple without the nail, I think. And that would give you good iron for your body. But today there are no pure iron nails.

  24. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Observations from a sushi nut

    I follow my dad in this one, as he was an ace cook and the cheap knives that we could afford when I was a nipper are still working for him years later. So he must be doing something right:

    1. No dishwasher, ever. It probably helped that we didn't have one for a long time, but even now he doesn't stick them in there.

    2. The knives get washed in hot water + dish soap with a brush and then wiped dry. Immediately.

    3. He wipes them down with a kitchen towel with a bit of (veg/olive/sunflower) oil on before they go in the drawer

    4. When he's doing fish, he wipes the knife blade after every few cuts. He's never been able to explain this to me but I have seen sushi chefs do the same and I speculate that the fish noodles the carbon steel [citation needed, as they say]. Why the old duffer does this on a $15 knife I've no idea.

    5. he sharpens them on the same oiled stone he does his woodwork chisels on, maybe twice a year.

    Now that I've written all this it sounds like my dad is an OCD nut job. Sorry dad!

    1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge
      Thumb Up

      Re: Observations from a sushi nut

      Why the old duffer does this on a $15 knife I've no idea."

      Probably because he grew up in the days when you looked after everything you owned, repaired it when it broke and rarely threw anything away because you knew how to fix things and there was always somewhere to go to buy spare parts if you couldn't fix or make your own spares.

      In other words, the olden days, before we became a throw-away society.

      1. Don Jefe
        Happy

        Re: Observations from a sushi nutm

        Wiping the knife on the towel is a form of stropping like I discussed above. In the days when all knives were kept sharp, but a specialized split leather strop was outside the financial means of most, a piece of cloth or wood was substituted. In fact, a piece of was the primary country folk solution for keeping things sharp. The wood, or cloth, is used just like a strop and works almost as well.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: throw away society.

        I've often wished I could.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: noodles the carbon steel

      Noodles it?

      Hmm... "Whetting" didn't last long as word of the day.

  25. Schultz
    Boffin

    Most things work as advertised

    Some companies sell you dishwasher-safe knifes, buy those if you want to throw them into a dishwasher. It all depends on the type of materials (steel, aluminum, wood, plastic, ceramic) used in the blade and handle.

    I use both types, rather cheap dishwasher-safe knives (need multiple because they are always dirty and in the dishwasher) and better knifes that get hand-washed and are always ready for use.

    Definitely get a steel rod to regularly hone the edge.

  26. Cornholio

    Sorry, no time to read through all the posts...

    ...but has anyone mentioned ceramic knifes? Great things, keep their edge for years.

    Can't comment on dishwashers though. Somebody else's problem, too middle-class for Cornholio Towers.

    If I did have a dishwasher, I wouldn't want to risk my carbon steel Sabatier in it. I like to treat my tools with respect ;o)

  27. MattW99

    Yes.

    Let me start by admitting to being something of a knife obsessive, I make knives and other edged tools, I collect them and I've rescued hundreds of abused knives for friends. I'm possibly even more obsessed with sharpness...

    The steel used in any edged tool is a trade-off between edge holding, durability and in the case of 'stainless' steels, corrosion resistance. Most decent kitchen knives use a fairly high carbon content to give better edge holding and it's the carbon in the grain boundaries of the steel which is attacked by aggressive dishwasher detergents.

    If you look at the edge of a knife with a hand lens, you can often see the grain structure (more obvious in forged blades than ground) and in a regularly dishwashed knife, this edge starts to fall apart and turn into a jagged mess due to erosion of the grain structure.

    'Sharpening' with a steel actually exacerbates the problem as steels actually micro forge the edge, moving steel around rather than removing it. This slightly weakens the edge and makes it more prone to grain erosion. Steels are fine for interim sharpening but you need to regrind the edge every so often to restore its geometry and expose 'fresh' steel. A few years ago, I used to collect and resharpen the knives for a few chefs in local restaurants - after repeated steeling and dishwashing, the edges on these knives were knackered - really convex and falling to pieces.

    So if you care about your knives (and you should), don't dishwash them and get someone who knows how, to teach you how to regrind an edge (a simple oilstone works just fine, if you use it well - you can also destroy a knife with one if you don't use it well). Sharp knives are safe - I good rule of thumb is if you can shave your forearm with it, it's sharp enough.

  28. John Robson Silver badge

    Cheap knives

    And replace them just before Christmas each year (when you often have extra people around anyway, to use the extra knives you have for a month).

    At £1 for a knife that will hold an edge for a year (dishwashed as normal, sharpened as required) an "expensive" knife is probably going to have to outlast me to be an economic decision - and that is ignoring any time I take looking after it "properly".

    Nice knives are nice, no doubt, but with the effort some people are going to above?!!

    For a chef, then yes - buy decent knives.

    For a home kitchen - go for ease and replace the cheap knives just before Christmas.

    1. Stacy

      Re: Cheap knives

      I would say try some decent knives...

      I have friends who do what you say, and when I cook at their house my knives go with me. Rather than use an OK blade I would much rather have one that glides through almost anything I am trying to cut through without effort. It reduces the effort involved in cooking and improves the look of the end result.

      Sure they are not cheap, but at the end of the day a decent set of knives are not expensive either. Just don't buy from a trendy kitchen shop, but from a chefs shop.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Cheap knives

      Hear, hear.

      These people are taking things far too seriously, IT bods who've watched a bit too much Jamie 'Clean ya chimney guvna' Oliver.

      These people should not have a dishwasher anyway, they should have a small filipino chap on an expired visa doing all their washing up - or they're not really doing it like the pros.

  29. Getriebe

    Arkansas white whetstone, carbon steel, and olive oil

    And gentle caressing

    Anything else is pointless

  30. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Seasonal Topic - Knife Safety

    As yesterday was Halloween, I feel it's appropriate to bring up a little Knife safety observation;

    Sharp knives should not be left anywhere obvious. I've seen enough horror and psychological thriller movies to know that an easily accessible knife is frequently the opportunistic killers weapon of choice - they've sneaked in to your house and just happened to find one conveniently lying around. Sharp knives should be cleaned and put away immediately after use - preferably in an obscure and un-marked drawer.

    If you keep your knives in a block on the sideboard and end up getting stabbed to death by the psychopathic serial killer who forgot to bring his own... well, you only have yourself to blame!

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: the psychopathic serial killer who forgot to bring his own

      I think I'd rather he used a sharp knife. I don't fancy being stabbed to death with something blunt.

      Just off to stick Sharp Knife Here labels in the right places.

      Aaaaaargh!

      (Rather than AaaaAaaaaAAAArgh!)

  31. mraak

    Ceramic knife will break

    My wife put it in the dishwasher and and next time I used it it broke. I'm guessing the heat weakened it, possible?

  32. Terry Cloth

    Serrated edges?

    With all this knife knowledge coming out of the woodwork, could someone speak to sharpening serrated knives? I have a really nice bread knife that needs some attention. Do I just sharpen it as I would any other knife, figuring I'll hit the high points, and the valleys don't matter? Must I buy a new one?

    Inquiring minds want to know.

    1. Mike Rodgers

      Re: Serrated edges?

      You can get some ceramic sticks for the valleys, try to find some really coarse leather to drag the flat side against to smooth down the inevitable curl you'll create.

      I'm guessing you can still get the sticks, they used to come as a pair and stuck into a block of wood to make a "V".

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Serrated edges?

        This is the basis of the Spyderco Sharpmaker I mentioned earlier. The triangular stones have rounded corners and can be used on serrated-edge knives. Even food-processor blades can be tackled. Not saying it's easy, though.

        http://www.spyderco.com/catalog/details.php?product=77

  33. Don The Elder

    Washing & sharpening

    I have an assortment of Mundial, Edge Resources, and Old Hickory knives, the most expensive ones acquired through Amazon at 80% off list (yeah, right!) Acquired through 47 years of college and marriage, the high-carbon Old Hickory see the most use, and the most machine washing, and have to be from the last home we had, pre-1982. I lay all the knives in the top rack, with the edges angled up to avoid direct pressure from the water streams, and use the no-heat drying function, hopefully opening the door shortly after the washing finishes to dry things more quickly. I find no rusting on any of the blades, and I've gradually gone to all high-carbon for ease of edge maintenance. I slice bread, serrano ham very thinly, tomatoes, cheese, corn cobs, chicken bones...I used to butcher my own lambs. I resharpen with a few strokes whenever the ball-of-the-thumb test demands.

    For sharpening I use Edgecraft's Chef'sChoice Model 478 & 480 diamond hones. Using strips of diamond abrasive material (anyone remember freshening your car's distributor points?) both sides are sharpened at the correct angle at the same time, no honing needed. Following the curve of the tip is easy, without the jump of falling off one of the angled rods so commonly used. I've not tried ceramic blades, knowing that my current propensity for dropping things (too much elbow and shoulder wear) would dramatically shorten their lifespans.

    Whilst a scanning electron microscope operator 45 years ago (senior and post college,) I ran across an article comparing wet versus dry sharpening. Using a scanning microscope, one of the major sharpening companies found that dry sharpening (with honing) resulted in smoother edges. Ever notice the dark line the first cut with an oil-whetted knife leaves? That's why many people test the edge on a sheet of paper. That's the particles that filled in the microscopic pits left by the sharpening process, making the edge feel smooth faster than dry sharpening, but immediately dulling the edge. The company followed up by doing customer knives both ways and sending them out unidentified. Butchers using the dry-sharpened knives kept using them longer than those using the wet-sharpened ones.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Wet? Or Whet?

      My theory is that this is a linguistic confusion, leading people to believe that a whetstone has to be a wet stone. I suffered from this myself.

      It may be that some abrasives benefit from lubrication, or from a mechanism that washes away the removed metal, but, in hand sharpening, I suspect that most do not, and that reading any instructions that come with them will confirm this. The primary purpose of wetness on rotary stones is cooling.

  34. Martin Smith 1

    More knife geekery than I ever knew was possible. Fascinating Captain.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      There is no known end to knife geekery

      1. MrDamage

        There is a known end

        to knife geekery. It's being at the wrong end of the sharp side of one.

  35. dzlegac

    My question is a bit different than most on this site. Since I've been using Cascade Chrome, my dinner knives have been chipping. Does anyone know if there's a relationship between the detergent and the degrading of the knife blades?

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