back to article Nokia's 41Mp Lumia 1020 'launches' in UK - but hoi polloi must wait

Nokia's impressive 41Mp Lumia 1020 flagship may have "launched" worldwide - with festivities including a glitzy Shoreditch gallery party featuring photographer David Bailey, actor Bill Nighy and cannibal entrepreneur Steve Bong - but UK punters won't get delivery until the end of the month. Some Blighty operators and retailers …

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  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    First and Last Chance Saloon for Noksoft?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Game over already

      With half the megapixels, the Xperia Z1 produces better, more detailed pictures in the real world according to reviews. Not really that suprising, as Sony's low-light Exmor R CMOS Sensor technology is now in it's 4th generation, and Nokia have only just started their copy-cat tech.

      Ah well, poor old Nokia.

      1. Kristian Walsh Silver badge

        Re: Game over already

        " the Xperia Z1 produces better, more detailed pictures in the real world according to reviews"

        Links to these reviews, please.

      2. Waspy

        Re: Game over already

        Care to back this up? I've read a few initial crappy 'I used auto settings' breathless gadget mag comparisons but I'm not sure many proper tests have been done yet.

      3. Dave 126 Silver badge

        Re: Game over already

        >With half the megapixels, the Xperia Z1 produces better, more detailed pictures in the real world according to reviews.

        Which reviews? I read up on the Z1 when it was released and whilst it looks to be a damned fine handset, I don't recall any reviewers being amazed by its camera. However, the Z1 does take better pictures underwater than the Nokia, on account of the Nokia not being waterproof.

        Nokia's approach takes a nice and simple approach based on the observation that most zoom photographs are taken during the day (landmarks, sports) and most low-light photos are taken at wide angle (indoors, parties, street scenes), so either cropping or interpolation is used accordingly.

        If the Z1's camera were that good, Sony wouldn't bothering with their 'Smart Lens' (basically the lens and sensor - but not the screen - from one of two of Sony's existing compact cameras, one of which, the RX100 M2 is very well regarded)

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Game over already

          The smart lens is for ANY android camera..

          There is a few comparisons, Google is your friend.

          1. Kristian Walsh Silver badge

            Re: Game over already

            "There is a few comparisons, Google is your friend."

            Google might be your friend, but I hope you'll forgive me if I keep my relationship with a multinational data-mining corporation on a more impersonal level.

          2. Piloti

            Re: Game over already

            "There /are/ a few comparisons......"

      4. Tapeador
        FAIL

        Re: Game over already

        I've seen a review comparing both and on detail the Nokia blows the Xperia Z1 out of the water.

        http://www.tbreak.ae/features/camera-comparison-nokia-lumia-1020-vs-sony-xperia-z1

        1. Lallabalalla

          the Nokia blows the Xperia Z1 out of the water.

          On that evidence I'd say the opposite. the Nokia is too dark, too contrasty and the colour rendition at night is just bad and wrong, the sony looks very natural by comparison.

      5. The_Regulator

        Nice try AC glad you got called out here.

      6. Maharg

        Re: Game over already

        After getting an Xperia this year (all be it not the latest model) due to its camera I can confirm the Xperia is really good at taking pictures… provided you are in bright sunshine or health and safety approved office lighting, other than that the amount of noise or blurring in anything that could be considered slightly low light is not good, with or without a flash, and nothing in comparison to the N8 it was bought to replace. Of course it’s still better than an iPhone but nobody buys an iPhone for its camera.

        I have been waiting for Nokia to bring out a decent Camera phone (and not on Symbian, although i was tempted by the 808) I’m pretty sure when I go to trade this Sony at the next opportunity I will not regret going for the Nokia, no matter what image correcting software you put in a camera, nothing beats having a physically good camera, decent sensor size and a 'proper' flash to get a good picture.

    2. LarsG

      You could buy a very decent compact camera for a lot less.

  2. MattEvansC3

    The good thing with the 3 options though is that all of their bundles for the 1020 come with 5000 texts and unlimited 3/4G (4G of course when it rolls out to your city so I'm expecting mine somewhere around 2030AD), so the difference in pricing is purely for the minutes.

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Remember when Nokia announced it was dropping series 60 operating system...

    ...and couldn't shift its phones as no one wanted to buy a dead end?

    They have been bought by Microsoft, who will do doubt make some big changes to the phone making it a dead end again.

    They may have trouble shifting anything new.

    1. Mark .

      Re: Remember when Nokia announced it was dropping series 60 operating system...

      Yeah, they only went on to sell about another 120 million Symbian phones, a mere 15 times what the iphone ever sold.

  4. Vimes

    What is it with mobile phone manufacturers and exclusive deals? Nokia seem particularly bad at this.

    Admittedly I've never worked in the mobile phone industry, but surely it would make more sense to try and get these handsets in the hands of as many people as possible, rather than erect artificial and unnecessary barriers to owning one of these?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Maybe

      Production fell behind on that model, so the cut an exclusive deal to make sure nobody buys them.

      O2's network is shit, so no-one with half a brain will be tapping them up for a new phone.

    2. Thomas Whipp

      I think the point is that Nokia doesnt sell to the end consumer - they sell to the network. So they want a device thats desirable to the end user, but only to negotiate with the network. I suspect that at a simplified level these deals have an initial fee and a per device fee - I'd be curious to know the split in revenue between those two parts.

    3. JDX Gold badge

      Presumably they paid enough in cash/promised promotion that they figure it offsets potential lost sales. Anyone who really wants one would probably consider switching networks so how many lost sales there really are might be hard to quantify.

    4. Timmay

      But when an operator is offering upfront incentives (ie. £££££££££££) to have exclusive access to a particular model, that is a tempting offer. Yes, you'll likely lose out on some sales, but if the wonga offered upfront is more than you think you'd lose in sales...

    5. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      It gives the mobile operator something obvious to use against the other carriers.

      Elsewise where would the difference be between one operator and another except in a bewildering confusion of tarrifs with quaint names.

    6. Andy Nugent

      RE:

      But people (mostly) don't but OEM's products, the networks do. They see an advantage of having exclusive deals to attract people to switch, and so offer incentives (bigger orders, more prominent promotion, higher unit price, etc.) to the OEMs to take these deals.

    7. MattEvansC3

      There's only so much shelf space and to an extent carriers hold more power than the handset manufacturers in this regard.

      In America at least its very common for carriers to refuse to stock handsets if they don't get an exclusive variant of a top end model so it may be a very similar situation over here.

    8. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      "surely it would make more sense to try and get these handsets in the hands of as many people as possible, rather than erect artificial and unnecessary barriers to owning one of these?"

      As a premium tech product they are banking on the fact that the market for these will regard swapping network operator as no problem in return for the latest gadget. WIthin the limits of reception I don't care who my network operator is - which for me at home means O2 or Toada, but for the sort of geeky urban professionals this is undoubtedly targeted at, they probably have fairly respectable coverage from all networks. Obviously there's some behind the scenes wrestling over subsidies, bundles and promotion commitments by the exclusive network, plus the appeal to the network of an exclusive, but for the makers look at history: Exclusive deals certainly didn't do Apple any harm, so the question may simply be how attractive WinPho is, how "killer" the camera is for users, and whether the price is right.

    9. Arctic fox

      @Vimes The problem is that in practice mob producers have to, in effect, bribe.......

      .........the carriers to put any genuine PR/advertising effort behind the device. This is particularly true of producers that do not have any kind of whip hand. The carriers are a plague on us all, regardless of which phone/operating system we might prefer.

    10. Ian 55

      Ah, but if you have a desirable phone, the network operators will bribe.. erm, pay you £££s for an exclusive period. You get to be seen as a hot thing, because they will advertise the crap out of your product, and the only people who lose out are the early adopters prepared to pay a premium.

      What's odd about this one is the choice of 24 months TCO of £600, or paying £330 now for a 24 months TCO of £570. Even with interest rates and inflation being what they are, that's a no-brainer, isn't it?

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Now if only it came with Maemo/Meego or even a rootable Android :-(

    1. pepper

      I long for a new Maemo/Meego version!

  6. Craigie

    Only one problem

    It's a winphone. I'd definitely buy it if it was an Android phone. Seriously. But with windows on it, I'm not remotely interested.

    1. cambsukguy

      Re: Only one problem

      All the same, it was interesting to watch a (BBC gadget thing) review where they used both phones. Pathetic review, stupid even, but it did show the Sony camera app crashing - not very comforting at all.

      On the four WinPhones I have/had or use, apps have crashed (duh!) but never the camera app.

      Not to mention the ridiculously cool Nokia Pro Camera app.

      As for quality, carrying around a massive lens in order to produce 'good' pictures means you may as well have a dedicated Super-compact with you - the battery will last longer ensuring the camera is always available.

      But, that's the whole point isn't it?, the best camera is the one you have with you. I don't believe for a minute that the Sony users will have the lens with them, all the time, paired and talking (over WiFi) all the time ready for shooting, woe betide their battery if they try. The Nokia has a massive clip-on battery/phone grip making it even easier to ensure you have a working unit at any given time.

      The Nokia is patently a better smartphone camera solution and IMHO a vastly better phone. At least I come from the standpoint of having used iPhones, Androids, Maemo/Meego (I had an N900 and an N9), S40 and S60.

      Since they are also tougher and better looking the choice ain't hard.

      I think the increasing market share (11%? or so in only 2 years, closer to 1 year really) in the UK and various other obviously discerning countries suggests others agree with me, at least on the OS.

      Kudos, however, for Sony water-proofiness, although I think it is done in the scary, block-up-the-holes-and-hope method. I would much prefer the soak-everything-in-hydrophobic-super-iridium-stuff method, far less scary - next gen or two I guess. Still, would like that in my phone too.

      1. Dave 126 Silver badge

        Re: Only one problem

        As I understand it, the OTHER high end waterproof handset, the Galaxy S4 Active, doesn't have a rubber plug in the 3.5mm headphone port as the Sony does. Whilst both handsets have a plug over the microUSB port, the Sony has two external pins for charging, in the hope you pay them for an optional charging cradle (in which the phone can be configured to do the old Blackberry trick of emulating an always-on-yet-dimmed alarm clock).

        Whilst some people might bemoan the lack of startling innovation in mobile phones, this maturity at least forces designers to compete by refining existing features (make it waterproof, make it easier to use etc), rather than just throwing in new ones (Samsung Galaxy eye-ball tracking, I'm looking at you).

    2. Cornholio

      Re: Only one problem

      Why? What exactly is your problem with WinPho 8? I was Phandroid, but I've no complaints about my Lumia 925. In fact, I think it's marvellous.

    3. Terry Barnes

      Re: Only one problem

      Why?

      We've got an array of devices on our house - iPad, Windows laptops and desktops, android phones and tablets and even a desktop running Edubuntu. I've got a WP8 Lumia - it's without doubt the best phone I've ever owned. When I switched from an Andoid mobile to my Lumia I felt like breathing a sigh of relief. That people think Android is a mature, reliable operating system ready for the big time amazes me. Don't get me started on the Play store rammed to the rafters with buggy, ad-crammed nonsense. It's the digital equivalent of poundland.

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Only one problem

      At least WP is fairly secure unlike Android, and this is no risk of being Malware infested. Not to mention faster / more efficient, with a smaller memory footprint, and better Maps / Nav....

  7. TheNSB

    They get a hefty fee from the network that wants to exclusive deal. If the beancounters think this fee plus the phones they will sell through just one provider is greater than what they would get by selling through all the networks then that's what they'll go for.

  8. Marvin O'Gravel Balloon Face

    I was going to get the S4 Zoom, then I saw this and thought I'd wait.

    Now this is out I've seen the new clip-on Sony lenses and I'm thinking the same thing.

    1. Dave 126 Silver badge

      Hehe... and if you're feeling really daft, there is the Samsung Galaxy NX, a 'compact system camera' (or EVIL -electronic viewfinder interchangeable lens) with 4G wireless connectivity. Trouble is, it cost more than a WiFi-only NX camera and a Galaxy S4 phone combined. Oh, and you can't use it as a phone.

      http://www.samsungmobilepress.com/2013/06/21/GALAXY-NX-1

    2. The_Regulator

      I will throw in a backpack to sweeten the deal, you can also use it to carry your new lens :)

  9. john devoy

    Why make changes?

    Why would MS make big changes to Nokia? It's was effectively already the main source for windows phone.

  10. moiety

    The hardware is very tempting; but windows...nah.

    1. Dave 126 Silver badge

      Out of curiosity, are you put off by the actual UI, the availability of particular apps, or the online services that winPho works well with? Just asking.

      I'm an Android user, but I wish WinPho well - competition is good for Android, and iOS isn't really a competitor to the whole range of Android devices.

      1. moiety

        Mostly it's the fact that Windows are trying to do an Apple-style lock-in but way too late and I don't think it's going to work. I'm no pundit; but I think we're probably looking at another Windows CE; but with even less incentive for developers because there's 2 established and popular ecosystems that -frankly- pay better.

        Also, you have Microsoft's recent decision-making (Win8; Win 8.1; The new Xbox (and what an arse they made of that...I LOVE my 360 but there's no way in hell I'm gonna get one of the new ones with all the strings attached)); multiplied by Nokia's decision making. Even if the devices and user experience are excellent it's looking very much like gambling on one would turn into a Betamax experience. The Xbox thing has also raised serious trust issues that have -for me- lowered trust to unprecedented levels...and I didn't trust them as far as I could spit a hedgehog to start with.

        As an analogy, iOS and Android are heads and tails respectively (reverse the order if it pleases your religious beliefs) and WinPhone is the edge of the coin...can happen but not enough to take it seriously.

        Personally, I'm hanging out for a decent linux phone where you have some control over the inevitable data-rape.

      2. The_Regulator

        Currently a Lumia 920 user. My only major issues are lack of a handful of first party apps (nothing that's an absolute deal breaker though) and the volume controls on WP just plain suck (raise/lower vol on media has same effect on ringers and notifications) other then that its really great to use.

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Since WinPhone is Microsoft I cannot possibly wish them well. I'd rather hope for BlackBerry to get back on their feet or FirefoxOS or Tizen or any of the others to become a success.

      4. RyokuMas Silver badge

        RE: Out of curiosity...

        "are you put off by the actual UI, the availability of particular apps, or the online services that winPho works well with?"

        In many cases, none of the above - it's usually a knee-jerk reaction to the fact it has Microsoft/Windows on the box, often backed up by some excuse about number of apps, using a "walled garden" model (which always makes me laugh when I think about piracy/malware problems), lack of a particular service, or some hazy or uncertified review that has been "read somewhere" about how "Android is better".

        You know - the same kind of behaviour that when applied in a pro-Microsoft manner earns the poster the label of "shill".

        Each mobile operating system has its pros and cons - FACT. Windows Phone market share is growing in the UK - FACT. Android has the highest market share worldwide at the moment - FACT. Competition is healthy for business and the customer - FACT.

        All you people who feel the need to get tribal about phones, get over yourselves. Honesty, it's like being back at school and listening to kids arguing over whether the ST or the Amiga was "better".

    2. The_Regulator

      What's your big issue with WP? Just interested to hear....

      1. Dave 126 Silver badge

        Thanks for your responses guys. : D

        Judging from what you say, and from other forums, it seems that negativity surrounding WindowsPhone is based mainly on

        - People's personal frustration with past MS products, from DOS onwards.

        - People's opinion of MS's business practices, a distrust of sorts,

        - A fear, justified by past events such WinPho 7 handsets not upgradable to later versions a la iOS or Android (you mileage may vary), that MS may abandon your investment in a handset and ecosystem, or force some unwanted change or 'update' on you. People might not mind too much, except they don't trust MS not to bugger it up (Ribbon Interface, Metro on a laptop)

        -Availability of apps... though many people don't need too many apps.

        -Integration with certain online services... though not everyone uses Gmail or whatever.

        -No microSD card expansion... though not all Android handsets offer this facility.

        It would seem that there might be some people out there who won't really be affected by any of the above points.

        + The 'Children's Zone' seems like a good idea given how people use their phones to entertain children on long car journeys... though Android now offers multiple limited user accounts which might perform the same function.

        1. Ian 55

          " A fear, justified by past events such WinPho 7 handsets not upgradable to later versions .. that MS may abandon your investment in a handset and ecosystem"

          Yes, exactly this - the lifespan of WP7 was a disgrace - combined with stopping people doing it themselves.

          It doesn't matter that HTC stopped doing updates for my phone - because Android is open, I have a choice of dozens of up to date ROMs via XDA Developers.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            "Yes, exactly this - the lifespan of WP7 was a disgrace"

            That's just bollox. You got upgrades to WP7.5 and then 7.8 - and it is still supported now.

            "combined with stopping people doing it themselves."

            You can upgrade yourself - for instance go and Bing 'Navifirm'....

            "because Android is open, I have a choice of dozens of up to date ROMs via XDA Developers"

            And because it is open, it is completely insecure, easily hacked and likely to be compromised by malware...That might work for a 'toy' phone OS, but Microsoft and Nokia are targeting the enterprise market. And are quite successfully replacing Blackberry in many corporates...

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        I find this strange too. The Borg (Google) and Apple are far less consumer friendly companies than Microsoft....

    3. Hans 1 Silver badge

      Given that the phone excels at HD video and retains a large master copy of each image - and doesn't allow expansion via MicroSD card.

      You like the hardware ? Who is your pharmacist, I could do with some of that !

  11. A J Stiles

    Megapixels are not everything

    Megapixels are not everything! Years ago, I had a FujiFilm 2800Z with a maximum resolution of 1600 x 1200 pixels (1.92 MPx). It wiped the floor with most 4MPx cameras of the time, thanks to its lens and a decent-sized sensor. A4 prints were no problem for it. If I didn't tell anyone it was only packing a measly 2 megapixels, they would have guessed it was more.

    A lens with aberrations won't project a decent image onto the sensor in the first place; and the physical size of the sensor determines the initial amount of charge which it can store, which in turn determines the amount of light it can accept before saturating. That then sets the maximum contrast between highlight and shadow, and in turn the noise floor (you want the amount of electrons displaced by light to exceed vastly the number displaced by random movement).

    I personally think sensor mm² would be a much more meaningful measure than pixels (although nobody seems to publish it; wonder why not?) And if anyone was making a phone with FujiFilm optics, I'd seriously consider buying it just on the strength of that.

    1. Terry Barnes

      Re: Megapixels are not everything

      It has the same size image sensor as most compact cameras - 2/3"

      1. sleepy

        Re: Megapixels are not everything

        @Terry Barnes: Remembering that in the crazy digital photography world 2/3" (two thirds of an inch) denotes an 11mm sensor (diagonal): it's apparently the outside diameter a 1950's glass vidicon tube would need to be to contain a sensor of that size.

    2. John H Woods Silver badge

      Re: Megapixels are not everything

      Nokia know this -- they are using the additional pixels to improve image quality, not to acquire 120MB RAW pictures. Their lens and assembly is of high quality, too, they are not just trying to bamboozle people with more megapixels = better.

    3. cambsukguy

      Re: Megapixels are not everything

      Since it creates one final pixel value from 7 actual pixels for the final delivered picture then pixel is 7 times larger unless you zoom in and reduce it accordingly.

      The actual sensor is large but obviously not gigantic.

      The point is that it takes good pictures, *for a phone*.

      OTOH, my 920 takes better low-light pics than all the compacts, DSLRs and phones that were trying to take shots at night of fountains and lit up buildings when I was on a trip recently.

      This is simply a consequence of having OIS of course but none-the-less, it slaughters those without it, or a tripod, in such conditions that require above maybe 1/10s exposure, which I find quite often occurs, more if you realise you *can* now just snap the picture of that lit-up building and have it look better than the actual eyesight view - extraordinary, anyone with a Nokia 92x will tell you.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Megapixels are not everything

        They're becoming a popular choice amongst colleagues and friends - I suspect they're well over 10% market share now. I found myself using it in preference to my compact on my last holiday, especially for the video on my 820. Much, much better than similarly priced Androids and nearly as good as Apple phones yet half the price.

        I don't think I'll ever stop playing with CityView. It's like being in a sci-fi film.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Megapixels are not everything

        "Since it creates one final pixel value from 7 actual pixels for the final delivered picture then pixel is 7 times larger unless you zoom in and reduce it accordingly."

        It doesn't do that for the 38MP standard native images. Only for the 5MP reduced size ones...

  12. h3

    The only Nokia's I was willing to pay full price for they didn't want to sell at all in the UK (Either N9 or N950).

  13. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    4MP vs 41 ?

    ...4MP of HTC One cammera was enought for big success. 41 is a joke - processing of such photos will kill the battery, what about size? Or sending such elephants by e-mail ? 41 will not help Nokiosoft much..

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: 4MP vs 41 ?

      "41 is a joke - processing of such photos will kill the battery, what about size"

      It's already out there, it works, and it handles the processing via the very efficient WP OS and some custom Nokia hardware. The 1020 comes with up to 64GB - and can automatically back up all photos to Skydrive. And you can select an optimised 5MP picture instead of the native 38MP ones if you prefer....

      1. Hans 1 Silver badge

        Re: 4MP vs 41 ?

        [...]Given that the phone excels at HD video and retains a large master copy of each image - and doesn't allow expansion via MicroSD card [...] for me complete utter waste. You can only get the 64Gb from one network, over-priced.

        And no, I do not believe the 41MP camera can do any good, in fact, I am pretty sure it will get outperformed by a 8MP Sony with Karl Zeiss lens. I cry Koool Aid.

        0wned by Microsoft Marketing department, you guyz are so c00l, ROFL!

      2. Pl0ns1971

        Re: 4MP vs 41 ?

        ...even you have super super Soft and processor you need a lot of memory... It is a lot graphics data anyway. Scen on PC you need a lot of ram and processing power to process such photos. So please..

  14. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I hope the finished product is better than the one they gave my OH last month.

    she went to a nokia event at a UK zoo last month. they were all given these to play with/take pretty pictures of animals with.

    The wifelett said the camera was great but VERY slow. A good, noticable, handful of seconds lag while the image was processed/saved. This isn't an issue on any high end android, or any iOS device.

  15. Maharg

    I have to question anyone who manages to fill 64GB on a phone, unless you have a number of movies and every picture you have ever taken ever; I currently have about 4GB worth of pictures which is a couple of hundred photos (12 MP phone), and 15GB worth of music, which is over 3,000 songs, add Apps, games videos etc and I’m just pushing 25GB, and I know very well I don’t need that many photos or songs on my phone.

    That saying I would prefer an SD card to 64GB, but that’s personal preference, I won’t lose any sleep over it, so unless this is coming packed with a tonne of space already taken up, I don’t think both are needed.

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