back to article Lenovo to ship all new PCs with Start Menu replacement

You wanted the Start menu back in Windows 8.1. Microsoft listened ... and didn't give it to you. Now Lenovo says that if a Start Menu is what it will take to get you to start buying Windows 8 PCs, then by gum, a Start Menu you shall have. By now, everyone should be aware that the Start icon that's coming to the Windows 8.1 …

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  2. Proud Father
    Facepalm

    Just awesome

    Another piece of crap to uninstall when you get a new machine.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Just awesome

      Fortunately W8 uninstalls really easy.

    2. big_D Silver badge
      Facepalm

      Re: Just awesome

      Exactly! Microsoft must have listened to me, because I've always contended that the Start Screen works better than the old Start Menu...

      I don't want any more bloatware / crapware on new machines!

      1. Stoneshop Silver badge
        Holmes

        Re: Just awesome

        I don't want any more bloatware / crapware on new machines!

        So, what are you using instead of Windows? Inquiring minds want to know

        1. Goldmember
          Facepalm

          Re: Just awesome

          @Stoneshop

          That joke has already been done, 2 posts up.

    3. darklordsid
      Thumb Up

      Re: Just awesome

      Agree: Windows 8 is a real piece of crap, and it is better to uninstall it as soon as you have got the new machine.

      1. aqk
        FAIL

        Re: Just awesome indeed! I actually UPGRADED to Win8.

        I actually upgraded my old Lenovo from Win-7 to Win-8 (now 8.1 eval)

        And gee! It cost me $39 !!

        And then gosh! - I added the IObit startmenu-8 for $... oh, wait- it's "free" Shucks! All that 585Kb of "bloatware"! Andit took... um, 90 seconds to install.

        And before you tell me you shouldn't have to do all sorts of silly add-ons like this, I'll again suggest that you should really SERIOUSLY look at some anti-virus software "add-ons". If you haven't added this stuff, you're foolish.

        Mine is AVAST... oh wait again! I currently use Windows Defender! And it came with the win-8 install.

        See you in a couple of years. Enjoy your Windows-7. Or is it Windoze-XP?

        1. Chairo
          Linux

          @aqk: Re: Just awesome indeed! I actually UPGRADED to Win8.

          Enjoy your Windows-7. Or is it Windoze-XP?

          It used to be "Windows-XP". Since a few months it's Mint. And gee! It cost me $0 !!

          OK, it took a bit of time to download and put it on a bootable memory stick, but after installation my computer felt so clean!

          XP lives on in a vm - safely contained deletium.

          1. mmeier

            Re: @aqk: Just awesome indeed! I actually UPGRADED to Win8.

            And how much of your software is no longer working or had to be replaced with "80 percent" FOSSTard copies to make that switch? If it's a mobile unit - how much battery endurance did you loose?

  3. pip25
    Facepalm

    Pokki...? Seriously?

    How about Start8? Stardock would jump at the opportunity and license it to Lenovo for a fraction of the cost. Or if you don't want to pay a penny, who not Classic Shell? Why does even a sensible move like this end up as just another piece of crapware to uninstall? Why, why, WHY?

    1. Justicesays

      Re: Pokki...? Seriously?

      Well, I'm guessing because Pokki are paying Lenovo to ship this crapware, or providing some kind of profit sharing on the app store sales.

    2. stephajn

      Re: Pokki...? Seriously?

      "How about Start8?"

      That's what I was hoping for too. Having tried out a few of them, I found that Start8 was the very best out of them all to really feel like it was PART of the operating system and not just tacked on. Using IOBitStart Menu 8 right now, and it isn't bad for a free product, but I honestly feel like Start8 is the one that really sets the benchmark to compare all others to.

      (No I don't work for Stardock) lol

      1. Sorry that handle is already taken. Silver badge

        Re: Pokki...? Seriously?

        Have you tried ClassicShell? Interested in opinions on the differences between it and Start8.

        Additionally I found Stardock's ModernMix to be particularly useful, especially on a large desktop screen.

        1. MacGyver
          IT Angle

          Re: Pokki...? Seriously?

          Classic Shell is the only reason Windows 8 still exists on my Taichi. Without it, I would be using Mint full time by now.

          Windows 8.1 was a gigantic slap in face that I won't soon forget.

          1. mmeier

            Re: Pokki...? Seriously?

            @acGyver

            And how many of the quite costly hardware features of the Taichi would not run, run in "80percent mode" or lack support software?

            1. MacGyver
              Mushroom

              Re: Pokki...? Seriously?

              @mmeier

              A lot. I have tried XP, Windows 7, and Mint 14 XFCE. Only Windows 8 supports the fancy tablet side with touch screen properly. Windows 7 came close (I think the first couple may have come with 7), but switching between the two was a pain. XP, has no idea what is going on with that 2nd screen and touch screen, also ACPI gets confused. Linux is about the same, but if you power it on with it in tablet mode, Linux can make it work like a tablet only.

              My point is that I have tried everything to get rid of Windows 8, and without a Start Menu replacement, I wouldn't suffer Windows 8, I would just write-off the switchability of the tablet mode and use one of the other OSes, and dual boot it into Windows 8 if I wanted to use the tablet part. It is not some magic element of Windows 8 that makes it work correctly, it's the fact the vendor only makes apps and drivers for Win8, that is the limiting factor.

              Some people can live with Windows 8, I am not one of them.

              1. mmeier

                Re: Pokki...? Seriously?

                Interesting. Generally Win7 works with tablet pc within it's limits of "not good for touch" and ASUS has a nice W7 unit out in the EP/B121 (works with W8 as well). Since the Taichi is at heart a pen-based systems with touch add on I had expected better support for W7 (i,e the current gen Fujitzu kit supports both OS and you can choose)

                XP needs the "tablet edition" (or at least the add ons) to make use of tablet hardware as far as I remember (never used a Stylistic without XP/Tablet)

              2. shawnfromnh

                Re: Pokki...? Seriously?

                That's the problem with MS's thinking. They made Windows 8 for touch screens and tablets and the fact is I don't want a touch screen and like the mouse since a touch screen would kill my shoulders after an hour or 2.

                They really have to realize that a lot of people could care less about tablets or touchscreens and just want a regular cheap monitor and a mouse and a startmenu and a desktop and don't want to use paid apps and would prefer freeware downloaded from somewhere beside the MS store.

                My boss uses Windows 7 and will probably be using it till 2025 and on the same PC if he has his way since he can't afford and doesn't care about every new OS. If MS listened to their customers they'd only have a new full version every 8 years or so which is the time it takes to get the bugs out from the OS that replaces the good OS as in XP right to 7 or 98 right to XP, can't wait for Windows 9 to fix all the crap no one wants or needs in Windows 8 or maybe Linux will make a big jump by then and be so user compatible no one would consider buying MS unless they've never heard of Linux.

                1. mmeier

                  Re: Pokki...? Seriously?

                  And what is keeping users from

                  Using regular monitors

                  Using regular applications from whatever source

                  Using a mouse

                  on Win8? Oh wait - NOTHING!

                  You can even use a KEYBOARD with the thing. And multiple non-touch monitors.

                  1. Justicesays
                    Unhappy

                    Re: Pokki...? Seriously?

                    And what is keeping Microsoft from putting in a Full "classic mode"?

                    Nothing.. Except stubbornness.

                    And your argument kind of fails when they put down low shipment volumes on laptops to the lack of touch screens, so they clearly think that touch screen control is something people are just begging for, on their creative as well as consumptive devices.

                    There really is no telling what these people are thinking.

                    Touch screen is good in the case that you are holding the device in one or two hands, or something like a kiosk where touch screen allows you to quickly guide users to the correct information with easy to see and use prompts

                    Any other scenario, like desktops, laptops, TVs, you don't want a touch screen.

                    A touch screen will just add to your ergonomics issues while also dirtying up your screen and making things more expensive.

                    So putting a "touch screen based" UI on those kinds of devices is just a huge fail, and everyone can see it. It's an even bigger fail when you take into account that 1) Microsoft isn't really anywhere in touch screen devices 2) Its not like you can build an app for WinPhone, Windows RT and Win 8 simultaneously with minimal effort. Which just shows how much of a bodge job this "Strategy" actually is.

    3. adnim Silver badge

      Re: Pokki...? Seriously?

      "Why, why, WHY?"

      You are looking for altruism where there is none. This is about monetisation.

      A commodity such as a consumer really shouldn't ask why. Be grateful we have listened and given you with the right hand whilst taking away with the left. Now just buy the product and capitulate.

      Yours

      CEO

      Megacorp

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Pokki...? Seriously?

      Do Start8 also have an app store bundled? There's your answer.

    5. darklordsid
      FAIL

      Re: Pokki...? Seriously?

      Because of the bigger picture: Pokki has a start menu AND a Store.

      Everyone is p1ss3d off of MS trying to snuff software market saying everytime all is legacy apart from its beloved Metro/Store environment.

      Lenovo did not only slapped MS in the face providing an out of the box solution for missing start menu (on par with most other 3rd party solutions), but also kicked MS in the nuts, very HARD, showing that the "revolutionary" idea after 8 and its "daring" business plan and the billions dollars spent to enforce it... has NO HOPE to become the next MS monopoly and it is actually on par (or sub par) to what any middle sized softwarehouse can do in spare time!

      1. mmeier

        Re: Pokki...? Seriously?

        What monopoly? There never was an MS monopoly nor is there one. Throughout it's career there where alternatives. Widly available alternatives that often, on paper, where more powerful than the MS DOS / MS Windows boxes of the same time. That where in the big shops and chains (at least here in germany)

        Mac

        Amiga/Atari

        Acorn Archimedes

        OS/2

        Deskview

        Not in the chains but easily available for corporate use:

        Various solid PC Unix (SCO, Interactive, later Solaris/x86 etc)

        Various Unix workstations and servers

        And still - the people bought and used Microsoft. Both privat AND corporations

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Pokki...? Seriously?

          "Various Unix workstations and servers"

          We had SGis and very good they were too, then we replaced them with Linux PCs at 20% of the price and they were equally good and more usable by then. This would be ~2003

        2. Copperknickers

          Re: Pokki...? Seriously?

          Agree, Microsoft's motto should be, as the French say, "Why do simple when you can do complicated..?". But then I'm a long time Mac user and have never come across issues like these (whenever I use Windows it never stops shouting at me that I'm not allowed to do things). All the same there have been problems with each new Mac system trying to be all-embracing covering PCs, tablets and iPhones - with the PC as the dumbed-down loser. This culminated last year in the horrible OS 10.7, hastily backtracked by OS 10.8 - and now what does Maverick hold in store for us? But I'm an old fogey. I don't bother with smart phones (apart from the most basic cell phone) nor tablets (except the most basic Kindle) all I ask is a PC that lets me can get on with my work without hassle. OS 10.4 is still by far the best. I have three computers : one intel with the latest system in order to keep up to date and the others with OS 10.4 (which also happens to be much faster at reading flash drives etc.).

  4. Aitor 1

    ¿Malware?

    Ok, so we are back to "toolbars" + "addons".

    Why have the manufacturers have to install malware?

    1. Brian Miller

      Re: ¿Malware?

      When I first got my Lenovo notebook a few years ago, the "value added" apps weren't compatible with Visual Studio 2005. I had to uninstall a lot of Lenovo's apps for Visual Studio to behave properly. Also, after I installed Kaspersky and ran a scan, it reported that the Lenovo apps exhibited rootkit-like behavior.

      Comforting, huh?

      1. darklordsid
        Trollface

        Re: ¿Malware?

        Why on hell MS is no longer capable to deploy an IDE that avoids embarrassing bugs like the one you reported?

  5. Ross K

    Good Intentions...

    ...and all that, but isn't this just an additional piece of bloatware/crapware?

    If you absolutely must use Windows 8, surely Classic Shell is the first thing you need to install - not some half-arsed app store frontend?

  6. Fletchulence

    First PC with 8

    For my 17 years old son that is. He needs it for Rome II. I honestly didn't think W8 could be all that bad, but by beelzebub it's horrible.

    1. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge

      Re: First PC with 8

      The word is "horribad".

    2. MJI Silver badge

      Re: First PC with 8 Rome 2

      Seems it wil use 7

  7. The BigYin

    FFS

    "provides access to SweetLabs' own app store"

    It's cute 'n all the way Windows and Windows partners are trying desperately to copy the GNU/Linux package management system; if hilarious the way they are turning it into a total clusterfuck.

    "Hey kids, Win8 sucks as. Here's a fix and a store you never wanted."

    1. mmeier

      Re: FFS

      The OS, OS tools and the MS software are maintained by a central "repository" since more than a decade. That accounts for all Linux does, after all "Linux is just the kernel"...

      For the rest (and actually for the MS delivered updates as well) Windows has central software delivery/rollout in the company environment since a long time (WSUS), It works different from the "central repository on a system I do not control maintained by a guy I do not know" approach of Linux in that it is set up individually for your company by your admins.

      One can debate the pros and cons. For privat user the "Linux" approach might be hande, for company users it is not. No sane admin will blindly push updates from an external source into the net so he needs a company package management server anyway. No changes to WSUS. Given that the Linux approach depends basically on the Distribution managing decend repositories and doing so for a rather long time the Linux approach has limits.

      App stores are basically just a solution to a phone problem (Webshops don't work so well on 3-6 inch screens) that got transfered to tablets by Apple. You can use it (and apps) on Win8 - or you can install software the old fashioned way. Your CHOICE! (And choice is good says the Great Neckbeard IIRC)

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: FFS

        "No sane admin will blindly push updates from an external source into the net so he needs a company package management server anyway."

        Er, yes - that is entirely normal in large companies that run Linux. I've certainly worked where they had 200+ Linux workstations and they ran their own package repository and included in-house software there too.

        I don't suppose Google rely on the Ubuntu repositories for example

    2. darklordsid
      WTF?

      Re: FFS

      That is the really hard blow to MS: its pathetic effort to create a new API as basis for another decade of monopoly and halted innovation is so laughable to be considered fungible with the store of any other third party by the largest OEM (and by far, the one making more revenues)!

      I'll laugh even harder as soon as some big OEM will start providing out of the box BlueStacks to bring the largest Store to windows users.

  8. Big-nosed Pengie

    My!

    What a nice, shiny turd!

  9. DanceMan

    Do the Hokey-Pokki

    Or not.

    From the description and considering the app store component, NOT. There are other alternatives.

  10. Belardi

    Even with all these Start Menu replacements... none of them fix the ugly skin job that Microsoft shatted out for us to use and live with.

    1. Paul Shirley

      http://uxstyle.com/ for the theming engine. Puts back about half what MS ripped out going W7->W8

      http://xxinightxx.deviantart.com/art/Royale-8-337121007 will restore some XP/W7 polish to the window chrome

      There are fixes for some of the remaining rough edges (like rounding off title bars properly) I haven't bothered with.

      And 1 tip: don't touch the Win8 theming options once you add the above. If you do, uninstall/reinstall seems to be the only reliable way to restore the hacks.

      1. aqk
        FAIL

        Wow! Win-8 "add-ons"?

        You linux weenies complain about tacking on a little "start-menu" addition to Win-8, (of course adding a 100 Meg antivirus program doesn't count as an add-on, does it? ) - and then-

        And then YOU suggest adding this UXstyle malware! Wow!

        You really do wanna sabotage the newbies to Win-8, don't you? Do you work for Canonical?

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Oh, to be a carpenter

    This will cause a lot of chairs to be shattered in Redmond.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Oh, to be a carpenter

      A carpenter probably won't help as the chairs will probably be cheap plastic & aluminium made in sweatshop rubbish.

      1. Ged T
        Happy

        Re: Oh, to be a carpenter - No worries

        M$ probably have a contract carpenter who's mandated to us power tools without a Start button, too...

  12. Mark2410

    It's not bad

    I have a win 8 machine and I tried a few start menu replacements and I stuck on pokki. Sure it a stupid name but I like it, particularly the ability to run metro apps in a windowed form.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: It's not bad

      @Sure it a stupid name but I like it,

      Oh, you bad thing, going against the commentard hive think.

      Down with you, Down Down!

  13. Denarius Silver badge
    FAIL

    think of the ecosystem !

    if the manufacturers, to use the word very loosely, gave customers what they want, what would all the little "we hear you" software firms do ? Think of the employment the broadscale adoption of user hostile UIs has generated. Think of the extra coffee and other medication selling to help users cope with the IT rage currently infecting the planet. M$ have done a great job making work. <sarcasm>I know using their more recent "stuff" made 2 minute jobs take 45 minutes. Wonderfull for using up all the spare time job automation was going to free up </sarcasm>.

    And no, why should anyone have to relearn how common software works so a sales weasel gets a bonus? Some of us have real jobs to do rather than fiddle with stuff that suddenly does not just work.

  14. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Microsoft is not going to like this at all. They will try to pressure Lenovo to stop shipping it by not including them in various programs designed to give them money back. When they doesn't work, Steve will whip the checkbook out and buy SweetLabs and release an "update" that does nothing more than make sure the Microsoft App is the only store and the start menu is returned to the normal Microsoft approved one.

    1. Frankee Llonnygog

      Maybe this is a sign of how much their control is weakening

      Now that their partners have alternatives, Ms may need to act the bully a little less

    2. darklordsid
      Megaphone

      Not going to happen, Lenovo is now more powerful than MS due to W8 debacle.

      Steve Ballmer was fired instead.

      MS and Nokia quotes skyrocketed: guess why.

  15. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    opportunists

    this is typical of every situation where there is a high demand for something and a company refuse to deliver it. ever seen those 'make your facebook pink' scams? again it's preying on a feature that a large demographic want (teenage girls?) to trick them into having something bad / spammy installed.

    instead of the start menu it sounds like people are going to get additional scumware.

    in this instance you could easily debate over which scumware is worse, the metro start page and integrated Bing search junk, or this, but it's just the same.

    so by refusing to provide the experience people want Microsoft are opening up the Windows 8 to a whole bunch of new scumware / adware or worse installed by people desperate to get it for free.

    Nobody comes out smelling of roses from this, and while Lenovo want to spin it as something good for the users the same way Microsoft attempt to spin Metro as good for the users if either had any ethics they'd just provide one of the free and clean solutions instead, but there's no money in that is there?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: opportunists

      OpenCandy is evil

  16. tempemeaty
    Holmes

    Why do things in half measures

    While they're at it why don't they just do it right, replace Windows altogether and get that monkey completely off their back once and for all.

    1. Sceptic Tank
      Windows

      Re: Why do things in half measures

      Monkey? Why does everybody keep calling the chair tosser that?

      (Chair-tosser-man of the Board. Haha).

    2. mmeier

      Re: Why do things in half measures

      Okay, what Linux distro has

      + Support for my current and planned hardware that includes stuff like WACOM/NTrig pens, Miracast / WIDI etc.

      + Software to make use of that hardware with good handwriting and speech recognition

      + Reliably runs my development tools including Oracle DB and Word (customer demands and we obey!)

      ....

  17. bexley

    Uninstall

    I got a new lenovo y500 the other day and spent the first 2 hours of ownership uninstalling about 20 applications that they had put on there.

    Macafee would not uninstall either, ran the uninstaller from controll pannel but it remained and I had to go to the macafee website to download another specific tool just to remove that shite from my computer.

    Then onto tackling windows 8 only to discover that UEFI has damaged the ability to easily install Linux on another partition.

    It is technically still possible to do but requires lot's of editing of grub files to get it to boot.

    Things have gone backwards

    1. Ged T
      Thumb Up

      Re: Uninstall

      A "Thumbs Up" for sharing your experience of adopting a sound, alternate approach.

  18. Potemkine Silver badge

    Waiting for Win9

    Till then, sticking to Win7.

  19. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    People should make their own mind up

    A manager at work needed to replace an aging home PC, he settled on a very resonable Asus laptop with Windows 8 (lack of choices in the target cost range).

    I told him to see how he gets on with it, do the tutorials use the windows key and hoped that being a slightly older chap (the ones I hear take to it really well) he would prove my reluctance to recommend it misguided.

    After a few hours getting to know it he shared with me his initial impression. - I Quote

    --

    "Hate it Hate it Hate it Hate it Hate it Hate it Hate it

    How much is Windows 7"

    --

    Windows 8 is hurting sales at this address as I just won't say it's a good idea yet, really.

    Windows 8.1 is better but little things like WIFI stopping working within a short time have not filled me with the required level of trust that the changes are addressing the fundamental problem, but is introducing new ones. It is better, a little bit, but at the risk of appearing rude with a company the size of Microsoft one would fucking hope so.

    1. Chairo
      Devil

      Re: People should make their own mind up

      Windows 8 is hurting sales

      He was ready to hand out money for Windows 7, even after he already paid for his Win8 OEM version, so it seems it is actually generating sales.

  20. Mystic Megabyte Silver badge
    Meh

    meh!

    Lenovo is the new Fisher-Price.

  21. N2 Silver badge

    Clean install

    Id wipe it & install 7 regardless, easiest way to rid the dross these shit mongers install.

    1. Jim Willsher

      Re: Clean install

      First thing I do with any new PC is run Everest/AIDA to take a note of driver details then wipe & reinstall. Then I know it's clean. Back in the old days of XP/2000 you had to have the right media to match the license (e.g. I couldn't use an MSDN CD and enter an OEM license code), so I've got a whole set of XP CDs with different setupp.ini files. But with Win7 it's easy, just use an MSDN DVD and enter the OEM key on the PC, then go through telephone activation. So with a new PC I can wipe & reinstall in 45 minutes and know that I have a clean system. No spyware, no crapware.

      No idea if Win8 will give me the same flexibility 'cos I'm not going anywhere near it.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Clean install

        I used to do that with drivers, but Win7 is so good with drivers that unless you KNOW you're in an "edge case" situation i.e. odd kit, unusual peripherals etc then, generally, It just cracks on and works.

      2. Enrico Vanni
        Windows

        Re: Clean install

        Just going through the process of upgrading a Toshiba C850 from Windows 8 to 7. A head-scratching moment was when the install crashed because I hadn't realise there were two places in the BIOS I had to disable secure boot/UEFI.

        I am envisaging the day when there is no option to disable UEFI and you are forced to stick with the supplied OS (a la those big selling Surface Tablets)......

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Clean install

        WindowsXP (Pirated Edition) is the go to distro for XP.

        Updated regularly and works on almost every machine known to man.

        I don't know if there is a similar one for Win7

  22. Ted Treen

    Revolutionary...

    A supplier listening to what customers want?

    And giving it to them?

    Intriguing - but it'll never catch on...

  23. Patrick 17

    Pokki is utter rubbish, full of deceptive links to their app store. Start8 is definitely the best option out there (and I've tried most of them).

  24. monkeyfish

    "in the next several weeks,"

    Am I the only one that get really annoyed by this phase? 'In coming weeks' would be ok, so would 'in following weeks', and 'in several weeks' or even 'in the next week or so'. But 'in the next several weeks' is like running your fingernails down a black-board.

    1. Thecowking

      Re: "in the next several weeks,"

      Closely followed by "Up to several weeks."

      So somewhere between zero and an indeterminate number?

  25. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Jesus guys, let it go

    Windows is sinking. Come join the penguins. One of the species will work for you. I swim with the Debians myself. Runs on all kits, the ye-old PII laptop, AMD64 desktop, and 4 ARM devices. I wouldn't be without packaging mangement and it rolling in Debian Testing is awsome.

    I know it is scary, and if you want to be a tech/power user on Linux, it's a bit of a learning curve, but the gain is far more than the pain. It's also unlimited, you can learn everything about anything.

    Why cling to the slow, expensive, oppressive, ship Windows? If it's some legacy Win32 only software, you can always give Wine a shot, or keep a virtual Windows for those old apps. If you a programmer, join in with Wine to get that software working. It's a nice codebase (much better than the leaked Windows 2000 source.......)

    I just don't get Windows tech guys. Non-tech, fine, they know no better. But tech, well, yes it mean a lot of unlearning and relearning, but it's not like Unix is some new fad.

    Ok, done, yer I know a bit trolly, but I just don't get why not dump Windows already.

    1. Paul Westerman
      Thumb Down

      Re: Jesus guys, let it go

      How about because I'm a C# dev by trade who uses Cubase 7 to make music in the evenings, when I'm not playing Fallout NV or Bioshock Infinite.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Jesus guys, let it go

        > How about because I'm a C# dev by trade who uses Cubase 7 to make music in the evenings, when I'm not playing Fallout NV or Bioshock Infinite.

        The generic answer to that was "wine or VM". But specifically:

        C# == Mono (you already know this)

        Audio/music, no idea not my bag but: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/audio-production-software-linux-ubuntu,2860-6.html

        Games, again, not really interested my self but:

        Fallout NV = http://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=version&iId=21692

        Bioshock Infinite looks like it require dual boot to Wintendo.

        If Windows becomes just Wintendo to you, then Win8 is a lot less annoying.

        1. Atonnis
          FAIL

          Re: Jesus guys, let it go

          So...what DO you do with your PC...just so we know? CAN you do anything worth the effort?

          1. Joe Burmeister

            Re: Jesus guys, let it go

            > So...what DO you do with your PC...just so we know? CAN you do anything worth the effort?

            The normal, TV/movies (XBMC running on TVs), web browsing, spread sheets and word processing, plus nerd stuff. Quite a bit of programming, use to do the odd bit of artwork with Gimp and Inkscape and a tiny bit of Blender. Home server, mostly for media files, but also remote access and website to share photos with friends and family not the world. Plus lots of dicking about just to learn more. ;-)

          2. Chemist

            Re: Jesus guys, let it go

            "So...what DO you do with your PC...just so we know? CAN you do anything worth the effort?"

            Edit 1080p/50 video

            Edit RAW photos

            Generate panoramic photos

            Scan/print in colour & B&W

            Program in a considerable number of languages

            Layout & design PCBs

            Program PIC microcontrollers

            Access my other (remote) machines by ssh/fish/rdp

            Run a file/odds&sods server and a Samba server for the wife's Nexus 7 & phone

            Run considerable amounts of scientific software including hardware 3D modeling

            + all the usual wp/spreadsheets/browsing/video watching/GoogleEarth/Skype/e-mail

            More to the point there isn't anything that I want to do that I can't.

    2. Atonnis
      Pirate

      Re: Jesus guys, let it go

      Despite the scale of trollery and moaning/bitching that people do, the honest fact is that Windows generally works for what people want it to do.

      The reason there are millions of sales of Windows is not down to what certain Register hacks and general hatemongerers will have you believe, it's not just down to PC sales 'in the Channel'. IT people don't just buy whatever is put in front of them, you are given a spec and then you modify it, including removing the OS if you want to, and send it back for requoting.

      Windows is a surprisingly easy-to-use environment that has a huge development base and a massive array of supporting servers and technologies. Linux, on the other hand, despite it's many sterling qualities - which I won't deny because I'm not a raging fanboi - just doesn't have the platform uniformity, ease of use, software base or degrees of protection (yes, I said it - grow the f--k up if you can't recognise that the whole security nightmare of yesteryear went out two whole OS's ago).

      Security-wise, Linux is viewed as a joke, and if there were enough installs out there there would be hosts of malware pouring themselves across the platforms. File storage is awkward from the outset. User friendliness is extremely low. Even I, a stalwart IT guy, found myself staring at an install of Ubuntu thinking 'OK, now what?'. I didn't have my files, I couldn't work with my data, I could play some shitty or some titles-that-were-big-7-years-ago games from Steam.

      I found myself wondering about how to customise a couple of things, but then discovered I couldn't, and then when I looked up how to do it I realised I had to start up a CLI and start tapping away a litany of commands, each with a set of overly-verbosely-described parameters that I only half-understood (and yes, I do know my stuff)...and I just ended up thinking 'Why should I have to bother with this shit again?'. It's like PowerShell - I know it's enormously powerful, but there's a reason why I use the GUI for servers and systems - and I don't buy a system that doesn't have a GUI - because a GUI is a fucking easy-peasy thing to create nowadays - especially if the creator of the system actually knows what it is it's creating.

      Windows 8 is not slow. My home PC boots from BIOS to login in about 6 seconds, and logs in in about 4 more seconds. The Desktop takes a few seconds the first time after a cold boot to come up, and I can work, play, browse, whatever without wondering even once 'how the heck am I going to do this?'.

      So it's not oppressive, nor is it slow - you can claim anything is expensive if it's not 'free' but then free never actually is - because if it was then businesses would all crumble. Why is learning the awkward multi-kernel'd world of Linux any easier than the one-code-fits-all of Windows? Why would I want a virtual machine or 'Wine' to run those nice new, fast, AAA games at a slower rate (if at all)?

      It's not scary, and learning curves aren't a problem - I have a history of playing with and dealing with some very awkward and hard-to-learn systems, but the problem with Linux is that it's not a new learning curve. It's a matter of having to relearn different ways to get the same result that we got years ago. I don't understand what you mean about 'it's also unlimited' - that just raised my 'bullshit flag' up to 3/4 mast from the outset. Windows doesn't have some magic limit that intentionally stops you from using it. You talk about 'gain is far more than the pain' - what 'gain' do I make? Remember I don't give a crap about what system I actually use - just that it does what I want, does it quickly, and has a good selection of applications.

      I think you showed you 'don't get Windows tech guys' from the outset when you started out with 'I swim with the Debians myself' - an inane comment that immediately highlighted the first and biggest problem with Linux - the fractured ecosystem of multi-kernel'd mess that it is.

      The worst bit is that I come out at the end of this all looking like a raging Windows fanboi, and I really am not. I'm just a bit tired of the same old tripe about the supposedly slow, oppressive world of sinking Windows - I've been hearing that same litany for at least a decade, and it's just not clever, nor even endearing, any more.

    3. netean

      Re: Jesus guys, let it go

      Several reasons (and i say this as a die hard Linux user by the way)

      Linux is NOT suited to enterprise level rollouts

      Almost every business on the planet runs Active Directory: There is not (yet) a viable alternative to this in the Linux World - (Samba4 , Resara, 389, etc are not simple drop in replacements -or don't have the same functionality or maturity)

      Training: Most enterprise staff are Microsoft trained - Big investment shifting them to linux

      The "it's different problem" When 90 of an office staff spend 90% of their time using oulook and Word. ANYTHING that is remotely different will floor them.

      Sharepoint or Office documents: Good luck migrating to a sharepoint alternative, or finding any linux office application that will flawlessly migrate all your Word/Excel macros without problem.

      i don't say this to troll, as I passionately believe that Linux can be excellent and there are some brilliant things out there: Openchange for example (drop in replacement for exchange)

      Sadly Linux on the enterprise desktop, just isn't going to happen anytime soon

      1. jelabarre59 Silver badge

        Re: Jesus guys, let it go

        > Almost every business on the planet runs Active Directory:

        In my 25 years in the IT field, I have never worked at a company that uses Active Directory. Granted, I've had the alternative nightmare of using Blotus Notes and Sametime.

  26. Tom 7 Silver badge

    Just as the Germans warn anyone with anything important to do off W8

    can I have the hardware on its own please?

  27. Atonnis

    So much hate...

    It's weird. I bought (through the company) a Lenovo Yoga 13 and the first thing I did was wipe the hard drive and reinstall Windows 8, then downloaded the proper drivers. I then installed 8.1's preview. I think it's great.

    It does what I want, the tiles show me quick info, the Desktop is readily available. I get to read and/or watch videos on the way to/from work on the train, and it sits by my desktops ready for a quick reach-out-and-touch-for-info like such things from travel information to Twitter without a shitload of clutter and crapware loading up in the background (except for Twitter, because - seriously - that service is just a fucking waste of existence, it's just a shame I have to use it) - because when I install stuff I make sure that I set the preferences properly, and I stop unnecessary shit like the java scheduler and adobe updater launching in the background.

    All this, and I can do my day-to-day job on it, including managing and monitoring 6 sites.

    And this all happens because I remove every bit of bloatware.

  28. GotThumbs
    Boffin

    False statement countered facts....

    "By now, everyone should be aware that the Start icon that's coming to the Windows 8.1 desktop doesn't behave like the old Start Menu at all. It just an icon that, when clicked, takes you to the same old Start Screen that debuted in Windows 8 (with a few UI tweaks)."

    If you right click the Start icon in 8.1 you get a number of options for items like Control Panel, Task Manager,System Shut down, Restart, and a whole lot more.....

    At least open your mind to what 8.1 offers. If one never tries to learn or expand their knowledge....well then thats their choice.

    http://www.geek.com/microsoft/windows-8-1-lets-you-shut-down-from-the-start-button-disable-hot-corners-1560037/

    1. Chika
      Trollface

      Re: False statement countered facts....

      True. Indeed, I've seen it. It's a rather bland list of afterthoughts put there, no doubt, so that apologists can make such arguments as this. The list, however, is hardly a replacement for what you could do with the original start menu, even the one that shipped on Windows 95!

  29. Chika

    Here we go again

    Been there, done that. Spent last weekend running Windows 8.1 on a VirtualBox, not really impressed. Seen similar menus, start and otherwise, like this. Not really impressed.

    The point is that people didn't just want the button back, nor did they just want the menu back. They wanted the whole thing, the button, the menu and the functionality. They didn't want menus that blocked out the entire screen. They didn't want the broken continuity of the "Windows" key that they have seldom ever used in the past, usually because the alternatives often made more sense.

    I never use Bing as the times that I have accidentally used it proved it to be total crap. I doubt that Pokki will be different, but it is no different to the importunity of being nagged to install the Ask toolbar when installing Java, or the insistance by Microsoft that Bing is your default search engine out of the box. Advertising whores about and we do nothing about it.

    But this has all been said before. Do we need to say it again?

    Answer: YES. Because the idiots at Microsoft will never get it until we hammer the point home.

    1. Abot13
      FAIL

      Re: Here we go again

      It is even worse, java update doesnt nag to install the ASK crap. If you dont pay attention or are not a savy user you just click and it gets installed automagically. it is an opt out, not an opt in. Still bewilders me that Oracle chooses to do that, not that they have a good reputation, but this is surely a new low. They must really hate java for some reason.

  30. John Munyard

    For all you guys who are scratching thier heads over whether it's better or not, what alternatives are better, and what uninstalls properly, I suspect there are hundreds of us out here watching with bemusement and feeling completely vindicated that thier decision not to move on from Win7 or even XP was absolutely the right one.

    Can someone remind me again why Win8 is supposed to be so worthwhile? Does it make Outlook, Excel or Firefox run better? Or is it just "the newest thing you just don't need"?

    1. mmeier

      For me it is simple:

      It has some nice improvements over Win7 in parts that I use (WLAN connection, re-establishment of drive mappings on boot etc) that saves me time and effort when I start my client

      For me it works fine on tablet pc AND desktops. And since I use both (privat) or a convertible (job) that means one system for all units. I prefer that to the "what was the way to do x on OS y" of using more than one OS.

      It can replace a smartphone completely. My privat "smarty" is basically reduced to "long running but overpriced MIFI router" since whereever I lug a Note2/can use it - I lug and can use a tablet pc. For job use I would like some Modern apps that offer a bit more in the mail/contact range (A "modern style Notes" since we use Notes/Domino)

      There may be better tablet os (don't use iOS much, Android sure isn't) and better desktop os (Mac-10 sounds nice) but Win8 is the "best blend" of both.

  31. TRT Silver badge

    Is that the same...

    CandShell and SweetShop rubbish that I had to remove from a PA's machine as it was far far too malware-like to be good? I mean, it rewrote the DNS queries and redirected the search engine etc

    1. darklordsid
      Thumb Up

      Re: Is that the same...

      ... put Bing as default full system search engine without asking, forces you to load a brand new api to run their adware network, design an entire system around making you use their services, hose an UI to constantly bring you back to a gigantic launcher filled by ads of their services, kindly asks every now and then to register their services, and in last update kindly try to trick you to save data on their cloud, so NSA can spare some connectivity money directly having your files on their servers...

      oh, sorry, this is MS

  32. Stevie Silver badge

    Bah!

    So, to recap, Microsoft ships a UI in which the primary design feature assumes everyone is using a touchscreen, and the fix to adjust this dimwitted view to the real world written by pokki assumes you are permanently connected to the web.

    F*ckin' A.

  33. The dog ate it

    Windows 7?

    Is it still possible to buy a (kosher) windows 7 license? If so how/where?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Windows 7?

      try here ?

      1. The dog ate it

        Re: Windows 7?

        Thanks. Also found some on Amazon - some of which look very dodgy but some seem to be genuine.

        And eBay ... pass me that bargepole, don't worry I'm not going to touch anything with it.

    2. darklordsid
      Happy

      Re: Windows 7?

      Lenovo is known for very permissive downgrade terms, and good drivers support for 7. No wonder they are the only OEM to have good revenues in late quarters!

  34. netean

    Q: What kind of organisations buy Lenovo: Enterprise

    Q: What will they book looking for in a Windows 8 Start menu: Clean, unclutter, WinXp/Win7 like drop down/pop up menu without ads, without security risks and without showing stuff to their their users that won't be able to install due to their group policy and non administrator status.

    Q: What have Lenovo produced: More Crapware that an self respecting sys admin will remove instantly

    Q: What have Lenovo done by doing this: Given yet more reasons for their main market to stop buying Lenovo. As if the "lenovo give the chinese govt a back door to your computer" rumour wasn't enough, As if Windows 8 wasn't also enough. Let's add a gimmicky, pointless, bit of cruft that doesn't match our target market or meet the needs of anyone at all.

    Q: What will be the end result:

    Dell. HP, MSI, Asus, Acer, Sumsung etc all make gains while Lenovo loses

    1. darklordsid
      Devil

      Hi Ballmer, Lenovo makes more revenue that other OEMs you are talking about, because refused to follow crazy MS business plan and have 1) downgrade friendly policies for 7 2) button/store replacement (and don't forget fix for metro full screen madness) for masochists buying w8.

      And I remind you that most of the fabs of other companies you are talking about are based in China, and most components come from China, so you point reduces to nothing.

      Btw, Ballmer was fired today. Good riddance, good luck to the new MS.

  35. Mr. A

    Why?

    Technology moves on, better ways of doing things emerge... deal with it.

    1. Abot13

      Re: Why?

      if it was a better way people wouldnt complain, fact is it isnt a better way

    2. darklordsid
      Thumb Up

      Re: Why?

      Yes, today Ballmer was fired. That was a real evolution.

  36. Spoonsinger

    Ok, (and this is just an observation on a new windows 8 user)....

    a client I had to install a windows 8 PC for lately - a business women with no time for PC shenanigans - although sex shouldn't come into it - actually quite likes Win8. She likes the fact that the familiar start menu was there, (basically because I installed Classic Shell), but also liked that when she opened a pdf under windows 8, (thus using the inbuilt viewer), from an e-mail she just hovered over the right of the screen, went to devices and selected the printer she wanted to print from. I did enquire why that was better than in the "old days" on just selecting the print or menu option, and she said the option was just there and that's where I was supposed to click because it says devices and a printer was shown. (I said umm).

    So in short, people like an old classic menu but people also like it when they just hover randomly hover over something on the screen and it doesn't crash the computer when they click the option which is highlighted even if it might not be the thing they want to do. (this is just an extrapolation of a 'users' thought process - absolutely no idea what they think about in real life).

  37. Fihart

    And I thought Lenovo were a safe choice.

    But obviously the same sort of idiots slugging their computers with crapware.

    If they had any balls they'd call Redmond and tell them to sort out W8 or let them continue installing W7.

    They wouldn't be the first to make that call, apparently.

    1. darklordsid
      Trollface

      Re: And I thought Lenovo were a safe choice.

      Yes they preload it with Windows 8, a real crapware!

  38. Brian Allan

    Maybe Microsoft could listen to users...

    1. ITS Retired
      Facepalm

      They do.

      Every other time.

  39. Christian Berger Silver badge

    And as usual

    90% of those computers will run Linux before they finally get scrapped.

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