back to article Glasgow subway's new smart tickets aren't, moan passengers

Glasgow's new smart tickets, for use on the city's underground network, aren't smart enough to count the journeys made, forcing the operator to withdraw carnet tickets at the end of June. Strathclyde Partnership for Transport (SPT) has named the new system Bramble, eschewing its traditional seafood nomenclature. Bramble, which …

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  1. lglethal Silver badge
    FAIL

    Doubling? Did I miss something?

    You say that a 20 carnet trip costs £22, and a week pass costs £12. So buying 2 week passes, costs £24.

    I would hardly hardly consider a £2 add on as doubling the cost of transport!

    1. LarsG

      Re: Doubling? Did I miss something? Yes you did.

      The original card was for 20 journeys, if you worked Mon-Fri and didn't travel at weekends it would last 4 working weeks.

      The new card is a 7 day pass so over the same period you would need to buy an extra two passes to get you through 4 working weeks, a total of £48.

      Or if you divided it up into single journeys it would be £1.10 against £1.71 per journey.

      1. Vince

        Re: Doubling? Did I miss something? Yes you did.

        Well I'm glad you explained that as el reg spectacularly failed to do so.

        They may as well make this site one big wiki and we can all just make edits, it wouldn't affect the quality of journalism.

      2. This post has been deleted by its author

      3. myob
        FAIL

        Re: Doubling? Did I miss something? Yes you did.

        4 weeks? TFA says 2 weeks. 20 journeys is 4 weeks only if you take the subway in one direction.

        1. graeme leggett

          Re: Doubling? Did I miss something? Yes you did.

          is it the case that it was 20 RETURN journeys under the old system - otherwise the numbers don't seem to stack.?

          Whether £1.10 for a single trip or return it is spectacularly cheap commuting. On a bus round here I could barely go a few stops for the same price.

          1. myob

            Re: Doubling? Did I miss something? Yes you did.

            It is 20 single journeys. It's cheap, but it doesn't go very far.

          2. The BigYin

            Re: Doubling? Did I miss something? Yes you did.

            £1.10 is the cost of the underground, given that it only serves some parts of the city some parts of the day (not night service and little on a Sunday), the price is fair.

            FristBus hold a near monopoly on buses in Glasgow (and as the city council are bunch of gutless wasters spunking money on jumped-up sports days when no destroying the local architecture - e.g. George Square); FirstBus get away with totally eye-watering prices (and a dreadful service).

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Doubling? Did I miss something? Yes you did.

          I understood it to mean you buy a days journey on the carnet valid for 20 journeys not individual journeys.

          Once stamped the ticket is valid for the whole day you travel.

        3. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Doubling? Did I miss something? Yes you did.

          I understood it to mean you buy a days journey on the carnet valid for 20 journey days not individual journeys.

          Once stamped the ticket is valid for the whole day you travel.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Doubling? Did I miss something? Yes you did.

            The glasgow system, under the current 20 journey 'carnet', or 20 multi-journey as its called is as follows:

            it costs you 22 quid.

            it gives you 20 single journeys on the underground, not 20 days or something like that.

            if you travel TO and BACK from work, that is 2 journeys. therefore, if you travel 5 days a week, both ways, and do not go out on weekends, then one 20 multi-journey ticket will last you 2 weeks.

            Am a bit confused at the journo's assertian that prices have doubled as well... glasgow underground like to keep their price hikes small and often.. a doubling would just make it too obvious :)

          2. VinceH Silver badge
            FAIL

            Re: Doubling? Did I miss something? Yes you did.

            "I understood it to mean you buy a days journey on the carnet valid for 20 journey days not individual journeys.

            Once stamped the ticket is valid for the whole day you travel."

            Hmm. And from the article, the relevant part that everyone commenting in this thread so far must be very familiar with:

            "A commuter paying £22 for a 20-journey carnet (at £1.10 per trip, enough for two weeks commuting) will instead have to buy two seven-day passes at £12 a pop, more than doubling the cost of travel."

            "20-journey" (not "20 journey days") and "enough for two weeks" (which fits with twenty individual journeys - five days per week, one trip each way) - all of which strongly indicates that the increase over two weeks is £2, and not "more than doubling the cost of travel" which it then goes on to actually state.

            I think Bill Ray may have read (and quoted) that it more than doubles the cost, and read the 20 journeys without realising it meant journey days, doing his own maths to establish that it lasts two weeks, without spotting that the two things are contradictory.

      4. Kraggy

        Re: Doubling? Did I miss something? Yes you did.

        Er, please explain to a non-Glaswegian how I would only need one journey per working day 'cos where I live I make two journeys every working day, so 5 x 2 = 10 per week.

        /confused

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Doubling? Did I miss something? Yes you did.

          @Kraggy

          You get so pished in the evening, an ambulance has to take you home...

          1. Squander Two
            Devil

            An ambulance has to take you home.

            OK, seriously, when I lived in Glasgow, the police and ambulance service made a public appeal for this practice to stop. Apparently, people who found themselves wanting to go somewhere that was roughly on the way to the hospital were faking an injury or illness of some sort, calling an ambulance, and then announcing a miraculous recovery and asking to be let out when they reached their destination.

            1. Squander Two
              Devil

              Re: An ambulance has to take you home.

              A thumbs-down? For a true story? Why? Not having enough of a sense of humour to take a joke is one thing; not enough to handle reality, quite another.

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Boffin

            Re: Doubling? Did I miss something? Yes you did.

            I'm gonna get pished after reading through this thread!

            maths on El Reg seems to fare badly in comments - I've been marked down before for pointing that out.

            <Dons heat-proof Y-fronts>

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Doubling? Did I miss something? Yes you did.

          "Er, please explain to a non-Glaswegian how I would only need one journey per working day 'cos where I live I make two journeys every working day, so 5 x 2 = 10 per week."

          The clockwork orange goes in one big loop, so you just stay on, and get back to your house eventually. An additional bonus is you don't need an office to go to. One downside is there's no internet connection. And it's not very good for your health (going through places like Ibrox)

        3. TeeCee Gold badge
          Coat

          Re: Doubling? Did I miss something? Yes you did.

          Easy one. They're Scotsmen and it costs 'em extra to get off at the other end, so they don't.

      5. jimmyhill1998

        Re: Doubling? Did I miss something? Yes you did.

        Surely that only works if you are walking home every day. Maybe part time workers have have a case but regular workers are no worse off...

      6. Steve 13
        FAIL

        Re: Doubling? Did I miss something? Yes you did.

        20 journeys lasts for 2 weeks, not 4. 5 days per week, 2 journeys per day.

        The cost goes up by £2 a fortnight, not "more than double".

      7. Irongut

        Re: Doubling? Did I miss something? Yes you did.

        So you go to work every day but you don't return home?

        Commuting involves 2 trips per day, 20 / 2 is 10 so you get 10 days travel on a 20 trip ticket. Which is 2 weeks commute.

        So the old tickets were £22 for 2 weeks commute and the new tickets are £24 for two weeks commute.

        So it's a pound a week more. Hardly breaking the bank and definitely not doubl.ing the cost.

        Extra detention to redo your maths all round.

      8. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Doubling? Did I miss something? Yes you did.

        Assuming you get the subway to and from work, the 20 journey pass will only last 2 weeks... it's 20 single journeys, not 20 day passes/return tickets

      9. This post has been deleted by its author

    2. Cliff

      Re: Doubling? Did I miss something?

      Every other carnet system I've ever seen or used is a book of single journeys, either they were previously very generously all-day-fill-your-boots tickets for £1.10 which is insanely cheap (£7-odd here in the West Country for buses only £12.30 to add in some trains), or whoever did the sums can't count.

    3. Great Bu

      Re: Doubling? Did I miss something?

      The original calculations failed to mention that most of the carnet users only use one ticket per day, they get on the train in the morning and then spend the rest of the day riding around without ever getting off the train. It's nice to have somewhere warm and dry to drink all that Buckfast.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        There's always one

        "It's nice to have somewhere warm and dry to drink all that Buckfast."

        Anymore stereotypical bullshite?

        1. NoOnions
          Mushroom

          Re: There's always one

          Tight - moaning about an extra £2

          No sense of humour (your post above)

          Need I go on?

          :-)

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: There's always one

            Think of it as a diet. That's 2 steak bakes less you'll have the cash for.

    4. Benchops
      Holmes

      Re: Doubling? Did I miss something?

      A £2 increase on £22 is over 9%. That's a MORE THAN DOUBLE* increase, which is obviously what El Reg meant.

      * the inflation rate

  2. LarsG
    Unhappy

    If

    It is as they claim 'better value' could they please come to a televised forum and explain why?

    Obviously it has been introduced to increase revenue at the expense of travellers......

    In Brazil the Government quickly changed its mind over the fare increases there, it just depends on how strongly you feel about it and if you want to protest.

    1. dramill
      Mushroom

      Re: If

      You could protest if you wish, but would the result of a riot in Glasgow have any noticable impact on the area? It's already World War Z as it is....

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        And another one

        "You could protest if you wish, but would the result of a riot in Glasgow have any noticable impact on the area? It's already World War Z as it is...."

        Any more stereotpyes? Any one? The trolls that post here are so predictable.

        And you wonder why no one takes you seriously?

        1. Squander Two
          Devil

          Stereotypes.

          One of the things I love about Glaswegians is that they take the piss out of themselves and their city so much and so well. You clearly didn't get the memo.

          1. Ian Johnston Silver badge
            Thumb Up

            Re: Stereotypes.

            Reported in the Herald diary recently: A couple of Glaswegians were walking through the city centre one Sunday and saw it prepared for shooting a disaster movie. Rubble all over the place, burned our cars and buses strewn around. One turned to the other and said, calmly, "I see Celtic lost at home yesterday".

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: And another one

          Anything that keeps half-cut Weegies off the streets is good in my book.

        3. Maharg
          Happy

          Re: And another one

          I went to Glasgow once, we refer to it as Belfast-lite…

        4. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: And another one

          ""You could protest if you wish, but would the result of a riot in Glasgow have any noticable impact on the area? It's already World War Z as it is...."

          Any more stereotpyes? Any one? The trolls that post here are so predictable.

          And you wonder why no one takes you seriously?"

          You've missed that fact that Glasgow was actually the shooting location for some of the scenes in World War Z.

          Bit of a sad story here pal, mah wifes been bitten and ah just need fifty pee tae get the bus up tae Dennistoun tae finish her aff afore she turns mah wean.

        5. This post has been deleted by its author

        6. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: And another one - Aye!

          The 2 directions on the Subway are known as the inner and outer, because they couldn't find 2 wise folk in town. If they had, iit would have been called clockwise and counter-clockwise.

  3. frank ly Silver badge

    re. traditional seafood nomenclature

    They could have called it 'cod'.

    1. LinkOfHyrule
      Paris Hilton

      Re: re. traditional seafood nomenclature

      I reckon they should have called it "Crabz Card".

      The slogan could have been "Itching to go somewhere? Then you've got Crabz!"

      1. tony2heads
        Thumb Up

        Re: re. traditional seafood nomenclature

        How about Fugu - it inflates itself and is toxic!

    2. Ledswinger Silver badge
      Coat

      Re: re. traditional seafood nomenclature

      "They could have called it 'cod'."

      How about "Docker's oyster card"?

      On a slightly more serious note, why didn't the daft bu99ers just use the same Oyster card system as London. All the R&D's done, it works on buses, trams and tubes, and it works very well.

      1. TeeCee Gold badge
        Meh

        Re: re. traditional seafood nomenclature

        .... why didn't the daft bu99ers just use the same Oyster card system as London.

        That would mean overturning several hundred years of tradition and admitting that the effete English bastards got something right.

    3. Colin Miller

      Re: re. traditional seafood nomenclature

      Except that it's haddock, not cod, in most Scottish fish suppers.

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    price increases

    they do them every so often.. at about 4-5 times the speed of inflation :)

    Also, fuck the ticketing system, that's the least of their useless money squandering... they decided to upgrade the entire underground system in time for the 2014 commonwealth games.. which apparently didn’t mean extend service, opening of new stations, new trains or extending the circle line (the only line), but DID mean ripping up all the classy looking brown/beige tile off the walls and slap white slaughterhouse tiles everywhere making the stations converted so far look like abbatoirs… putting in more metal and orange lights.. and now seemingly putting up new barriers.. because the old magnet stripe tickets were working too well? Because they were running out of paper? Because they had more money than they knew what to do with?

    Piss on them, I now ride a bike to work.

    1. vmistery

      Re: price increases

      You take the bike now - perhaps its a new fitness scheme in disguise!

  5. Calum Morrison

    No they don't!

    "the Clockwork Orange, as _everyone else seems to think_ Glaswegians fondly refer to their subway network". There, fixed that for you.

    They just don't; in 20 years here, I've never heard it referred to as such, except by outsiders. It was officially called the Underground for long enough but changed officially to the Subway as that's all Weegies ever, ever call it.

    That is all.

    1. knarf
      FAIL

      Re: No they don't!

      Yeah its called the "underground" except for by folk who don't do their research it seems. Who ever wrote this needs a bollocking and a math exam for Age 5

      1. Ian Johnston Silver badge
        Headmaster

        Re: No they don't!

        Real Glaswegians call it the Subway, which is the name it had from opening until electrification in the 30s. At that point the official name changed to the Underground, but it never really caught on and in changing back to the subway, the cooncil have reflected popular usage.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: No they don't!

          Until another fast food company pays to sponsor it / open up next to each station entrance.....

    2. Magnus Ramage

      Re: No they don't!

      The Glasgow Underground was certainly popularly referred to as the Clockwork Orange when it was rebuilt in the late 70s - I remember it well as a child living there. I don't live in Glasgow any more, but I don't think I ever hear anyone using the term now when I visit. But as demonstrated by some of the stereotypes above, perceptions of Glasgow in the rest of the UK still seem to be based on what things were like a couple of decades ago.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: No they don't!

        I'm old enough to remember the old, pre update system.

        The "Clockwork Orange" was marketting spin by the City Fathers. It didn't stick.

        Meanwhile the "Armadillo" is a big Slater

      2. Squander Two
        Devil

        Re: No they don't!

        > perceptions of Glasgow in the rest of the UK still seem to be based on what things were like a couple of decades ago.

        Or maybe some of us have just been up some of the side-streets off Alexandra Parade. Or worked in an all-night garage on the Red Road. (One night only. NEVER AGAIN.)

      3. Ian Johnston Silver badge
        Thumb Down

        Re: No they don't!

        I don't believe you. I lived in Glasgow when it was rebuilt, and I never, ever heard it referred to as the Clockwork Orange. That terms seems to be wholly a figment of the imagination of lazy journalists. Give me half a dozen contemporary written citations by non-journalists and I'll maybe change my mind.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: No they don't!

      Wrong. You must be about 12.

  6. JeeBee
    FAIL

    So - make Bramble essential if you live in the area

    Just get everyone to have a "Bramble" card if they want discounted travel. That worked well in London with Oyster. People without pay full whack - and soon enough the people without are tourists, exactly the people we want to subsidise our daily work commute.

    Oyster still has the problem that it is sometimes cheaper to do two single journeys each day, five days a week, rather than buying a weekly travelcard. I could see something like a commuter travelcard being popular - and hence it will never be introduced.

    1. Colin Miller

      Re: So - make Bramble essential if you live in the area

      The underground is only good if you are travelling from/to the city centre from the West End or the South-West.

      They are talking about getting a RFID card on the monopoly that is First buses for the Commonwealth Games, I assume that is going to be Bramble.

  7. teapot9999
    WTF?

    Too cheap

    Why is it so cheap? Maybe they should join the real world with the ticket price put up to at least £4.

    I cannot even get on my local bus for £1.10.

    1. JayBizzle
      Trollface

      Re: Too cheap

      It must be some English subsidy paying for it again... what's that about Oil and Gas you say?

    2. Efros
      Pint

      Re: Too cheap

      If you understood the size of the Glasgow circle line you would get it. There are 15 stations on about 6.5 miles of track on a single line, the London system has 11 lines, 250 miles of track and 270 stations.

      1. Ian 55
        Paris Hilton

        Re: Too cheap

        In London, it still costs £4.50 (WTF!?!) cash or £2.10 (still not good) on an Oyster for a journey on zone one, even if that's from Leicester Square to Covent Garden and you've probably walked further down to the train and up again than it is between the two stations.

        Paris, because their Metro prices are better than London's.

        1. Tom 38 Silver badge

          Re: Too cheap

          In London, it still costs £4.50 (WTF!?!) cash or £2.10 (still not good) on an Oyster for a journey on zone one…

          The price of a cash fare is deliberate, it is to maximise the revenue from tourists and visitors to London without affecting the residents.

          …a journey on zone one, even if that's from Leicester Square to Covent Garden

          That one stop route keeps TFL in gravy.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Leicester Square to Covent Garde

          The reason for that pricing is to discourage people from using the tube for short journeys in central London. The capacity isn't there to cope!

    3. Irongut

      Re: Too cheap

      The standard price is £1.20 and has increased several times in the last few years. It is that price because anywhere you are going on the Underground you can reach by walking in 30 minutes.

    4. Ian Johnston Silver badge
      Thumb Down

      Re: Too cheap

      Come to Edinburgh. Local buses (owned by the council) charge a flat rate of £1.50 for journeys of any distance, and £3.50 for unlimited travel for a day. And the system still makes a profit.

    5. Andalou

      Re: Too cheap

      No, it is not cheap. Bus travel is expensive - £1.90 single or £4 for a day pass in Glasgow. More expensive than when London offfered bus-only passes (Boris has now banned bus-passes, you now have to pay for trains as well).

      The Subway in Glasgow is very small, a single circuit and only serves a small part of the City. And a ticket costs £1.40 (single) - not all that cheap bearing in mind its range.

      The advantage of the old 20 journal tickets is that they do not expire and they can be used by anyone. For those who do not need a daily (or weekdaily) usage prices are now going up 27% from £1.10 to £1.40. For the weekday commuters prices are going up from £1,10 to £1.20 (though that is with a seven day pass for £12)

  8. jimmyhill1998
    FAIL

    Bizarro Price Rise

    So weekly passes are being reduced from £16 to £12 which will in fact cost exactly the same a the current 10 ticket carnet (but you get unlimited travel) and this is a price RISE?

    1. Kevin Johnston

      Re: Bizarro Price Rise

      Alas, you are falling for the hype. If you allow the people selling the tickets to define the calculation then it will never be a rise (or not one of any significance anyway). As has been mentioned above, this wonderful deal is only a wonderful deal if you intend to spend large portions of your life enjoying the Subway. If you are a commuter then the inference is that you are using it to travel to work and back home hence 2 journeys per day, 5 days per week. Since these people make up a very large proportion of the users then the fact they have to pay more to cover their current usage means it actually is a rise.

    2. oddie

      Re: Bizarro Price Rise

      "So weekly passes are being reduced from £16 to £12 which will in fact cost exactly the same a the current 10 ticket carnet (but you get unlimited travel) and this is a price RISE?"

      Yes, because nobody every buys the 10 journey tickets... the cheapest one is the 20 journey... currently priced at 22 pounds.

      the new weekly pass at 12 pounds is _almost_ as good.. as it works out at 24 quid for every 2 weeks.

      this holds true as long as:

      *you are never off work sick

      *you plan all your holidays around your weekly travel pass

      *you travel to and back from work on the underground every day

      (to be fair the new proposed system is actually slightly better if you also travel around glasgow on the underground during the weekend.. or if you travel more than twice on the underground per day.... say into city centre to work in the morning.. into the west end for a drink after work... and them home before the underground shuts.. unless u live in the west end to begin with, obviously :))

    3. Andalou

      Re: Bizarro Price Rise

      Yes, it is a price rise to everyone except commuters. From £1.10 per single to £1.40. Although £12 per week is cheap for commuters Glasgow is small and the Subway even smaller and very few Subway users need return tickets each and every trip. With the random weather the carnet was useful for when it rained and useful for taking home shopping (without having to pay to go into town).

  9. Omgwtfbbqtime Silver badge
    Facepalm

    The Tyne and Wear Metro is getting smart cards

    ... and I am expecting a much greater screwups than this.

    It is already 3 months overdue on roll out (from their own documentation received with my smart card), and I cannot get a straight answer out of them as to whether it will still be possible to buy the 4 weekly pass online, as I do now, or whether I will lose the 10% discount for online purchase.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: The Tyne and Wear Metro is getting smart cards

      3 months overdue? Crikey mate they've been planning to implement the Pop card system since before DB Regio took over. Nexus first tabled the plans for the new ticket machines back in 2007. They first planned the barriers in 2011. Of course both have just only completed rollout this year and heaven knows when we're actually going to see the smartcard system.

      Of course that didn't stop them hiking up the prices. They eliminated off-peak fares entirely c. 2009 on the promise of "more flexible ticketing soon". An evening return ticket to town from zone 3 went from £2.30 to £4 overnight on the basis that smartcard ticketing would be much cheaper, as it is in London. 4 years on, they're now £4.30 and those smartcards are like hen's teeth.

      Total omnishambles.

    2. TeeCee Gold badge
      Joke

      Re: The Tyne and Wear Metro is getting smart cards

      You should spare a thought for the poor bastards on Merseyside.

      Every time they get a ticketing system to work, it jacks it in to go and scrounge off the dole instead.

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    They're complaining they have to pay 12 quid for a weeks travel?

    Just zone 1 London underground costs over 30 quid.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      you have zones!?

      from the ever trushworthy wikipedia:

      Fare zone 1 is the central zone of Transport for London's zonal fare system used by the London Underground... It is about 6 miles (9.7 km) from west to east and 4 miles (6.4 km) from north to south, approximately 62.08 km2.....

      aparently you also have 83 stations there, and 11 lines in that zone alone... and a single of those lines in zone 1 alone is the quivalent length of glasgows entire subway network...

      I'm not sure what number you should multiply 12 quid a week with if you compare this to glasgow with its 15 stations and 6.5 miles of track, but the lowest one I found is about 66 quid a week ;)

      On a related note.. I wish they had just got a deal with transport for london so we could use oyster cards on both subways... in stead of all these independent systems all over the place...

      1. macfin

        Re: you have zones!?

        Oyster is a proprietary system that only works in London but Tfl have themselves been upgrading their gates and introducing new back office software to enable interoperable smart tickets to be used there too.There are numerous other commercial smart ticketing deployments being rolled out across the UK that are interoperable with Bramble. The Bramble card will be capable of being used in London as it is based on an interoperable open standard ( mandated by the UK government) so no need to buy Oyster cards when Glaswegians visit London.

        1. DuncanL

          Re: "based on an interoperable open standard"

          Bllimey! Are you sure this is a government project? That sounds far too sensible and reasonable.

          It'll never actually work - someone will screw up the infrastructure...

          1. lglethal Silver badge
            Go

            Re: "based on an interoperable open standard"

            I just got back from Japan, and they have recently lined up pretty much all of their metro systems to run on any city card. So whilst each city has a different card "brand" they all work everywhere. You have seriously no idea how convenient that was!

            If they can get the same thing happening in the UK, trust me, you will be a happy camper in the long run!

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: "based on an interoperable open standard"

              As a Londoner - why would I want to visit another city in the UK?!

              1. WayUpNorth

                Re: "based on an interoperable open standard"

                As a resident of another city in the UK...why would you want to be a Londoner?

            2. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: "based on an interoperable open standard"

              One does not "camp", but your message is understood!

            3. mgumn
              Stop

              Re: "based on an interoperable open standard"

              You need to visit a third tier city like Bristol. The buses are extraordinarily expensive and unreliable. The urban rail north of the river is a dream but doesn't really go to the right places.

              The thought of having a town/city wide smart card for public transport for many of the UK's inhabitants is a wild dream, and the thought of it working interoperably in other cities country wide is some sort of utopian day dream.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: you have zones!?

          Until some mad bad Politician causes Scotland to use some non-GBP currency, perhaps. Or folk north of the border see sense and oust the wee rancid turd from Bute House.

    2. Bill Fresher

      "Just zone 1 London underground costs over 30 quid."

      I'd happily pay 3 times that if they ever introduced first class carraiges on the tube.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Bubbly and fold fla seats? Sounds amazing.

    3. Cliff

      Zones?

      On the plus side, £30 instead of £12, and you get to be in London, not Glasgow.

      Nothing wrong with Glasgow, but it's no London - compared side by side for jobs, income, property prices, theatres, galleries, museums, airports and international links, it's a little unfair to pick on just one axis.

  11. Steve Brooks

    suckers

    Fortunately Melbourne hasn't been inflicted with any of these price rise woes with the introduction of the new system, in fact most people now travel free because the machines tend to break down every 5 minutes, except of course you take the risk of getting caught by, and beaten up by, the railway police. The excuse that the only working machine on the system happens to be the one at the destination station carries little weight, you should have walked there, validated your ticket, walked back and then caught the train there.

  12. Mark Broadhurst
    WTF?

    £1.10 for a return?

    The cheapest way for me to get to work is a £3,000 pa travel card which works out at about £8 per day or £4 per trip.

    The most expensive would be £25.50 per day if I bought it on the day everyday.

    1. Rufus McDufus

      Re: £1.10 for a return?

      £3000 pa would £8.20 a day if you travelled every single day of the year. More like £13 a day on average if you deduct (say) 20 days holiday and some public holidays.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: £1.10 for a return?

      Have you thought of moving closer to work? (Just an idea)

      1. Lee D Silver badge

        Re: £1.10 for a return?

        I would imagine that, where he works, the house prices are SIGNIFICANTLY more than £3000pa more expensive on a mortgage.

        Like just about everyone else of the millions of people who live in suburbs and work in cities.

        I know that if I had £3000pa extra "free" to buy another house, it would barely cover moving costs in the first year, and would then work out at £250 extra a month on the mortgage, which wouldn't get me a mortgage significantly different from the one I have, and wouldn't get me to move closer to work without some other MASSIVE detriment (like moving to a much worse area, losing a room in the house, having no garden / car parking / whatever, etc.).

        People who commute to work do so for a reason - it's the most profitable way for that person to live, or they really wouldn't be doing it. City-salaries, suburbs-costs. Even with travel expenses, they work out better. But that doesn't mean that the railways aren't taking the mick either.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: £1.10 for a return?

          Is that because you need those accoutrements, or is it just to impress the tennis club luvvies?

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: £1.10 for a return?

        Or increase one's own gavitational fore and let work come to you?

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: £1.10 for a return?

      Structural travel is madness. Move and free up capacity for ad-hoc travellers and tourists.

  13. Squander Two
    Devil

    There is an easy solution to this.

    The slight price rise can easily be offset by wandering around the bus stops in Union Street at about 10pm asking everyone you see if they've got a "spare" 20p for you to get home. You get a bit of money, plus you get to do your bit to preserve an ancient tradition.

  14. lnLog
    Meh

    The glasgow subway is a joke, it goes a pitiful distance and was built for midgets. In most cases its easier to take the normal train or walk.

    1. Efros
      Pint

      Indeed, at 6'4" the only place I can stand vertically is in the centre of the carriage. I swear there's a couple of 90 degree turns as well, at least it feels that way.

    2. Silverburn

      You lucky bastards.

      It's the model of efficiency compared to the Edinburgh trams, and they're not even running yet.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      The designers focused on the "Wee" and forgot the "gie" part o he passengers.

  15. Anomalous Cowshed

    What a joke

    Glasgow is a great and marvellous city of more than 1 million people including its suburbs. In the early Paleolithic Era (OK, in Victorian times), a small, twee but interesting underground railway loop was built under Glasgow, one of the first of its kind in the world. Since then, there has been almost nil investment in that system, other than to upgrade the trains maybe, and the signalling, and of course the logo. Classic mid to late 20th century British investment policy. What a shame! With the exception of London, other cities in Britain are also treated in this way: take Manchester, a city of 2.5 million people in its metropolitan area. It has an unbelievably dinky tramway as its primary public transit network. When I say 'dinky', you must have experienced the shaky ride from Victoria station to Bury to know what I mean. I couldn't believe it. Not only that, most of it was built on existing railway lines that were DOWNGRADED to "light rail" status to allow for the dinky tram to travel on them, presumably saving money in the process by stopping the "heavy rail". Meanwhile, many cities of just 250 thousand people in boring old Europe have full-on metro systems or professional tram systems. Though I admit that they are somewhat lacking in 'deregulation', 'free competition', 'franchises' and...logos.

    Where is all the money going? Or what's wrong? Can anybody enlighten me?

    1. Silverburn
      Thumb Down

      Re: What a joke

      Where is all the money going? Or what's wrong? Can anybody enlighten me?

      Probably to Edinburgh, to pay for that beacon of efficiency, the trams.

      1. davemcwish

        Re: Edinburgh Trams

        Don't forget the 15 year operating loss projections.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Edinburgh Trams

          Usually Weegie-free tho' so major plus.......

  16. Crisp Silver badge

    Train Journeys are too expensive anyway.

    The last trip I took by train cost more that it would to drive to my destination!

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Train Journeys are too expensive anyway.

      The last train journey I took in the UK cost more than a return flight to the south of France - and took longer.

      1. Cliff

        Re: Train Journeys are too expensive anyway.

        >>The last train journey I took in the UK cost more than a return flight to the south of France - and took longer.

        Thereby better value in terms of £/minute.

    2. Silverburn
      Go

      Re: Train Journeys are too expensive anyway.

      You probably forgot to include vehicle depreciation in your calculation, but then again...the prices are so ridiculous now, that even that can be factored in and still be cheaper.

      UK railways are the worst in Europe, for how much we pay. FFS - with a flat rate 50% discount card (which everyone can get, and can be for almost *any* journey), even rail travel in Switzerland is cheaper.

  17. subwayfan

    Some facts about the Glasgow Subway

    Thanks for this interesting article, giving us some technical background about this. And suggesting that SPT, the operator of Glasgow's subway, is lying when they say the new tickets are not capable of handling multi-journey tickets, if I understand that right (not that it comes as a surprise).

    Some very interesting comments here as well - I think some facts might help to understand the situation in Glasgow.

    First of all, Glasgow has no integrated public transport (unlike, say, London), so you need separate tickets for the bus (in fact, one for each of the several bus companies operating in the city), the train and the subway. It means that the quoted prices are for the subway "network" only, which happens to be a single circle line with 15 stations. One round takes 24 minutes to complete.

    You also have to take into account the service times of the Glasgow subway, these are 6.30 am - 11.30 pm Mon-Sat, and less frequent trains on Sundays from 10 am - 6 pm (yes, that's right: http://www.spt.co.uk/subway/timetables/ )

    So are the current prices cheap? I don't think so. And now they are scrapping the only half-good value tickets, because the new "smart" system supposedly cannot handle them.

    Another overlooked fact so far is that a lot of people use the subway regularly, but not daily, and the best ticket option for this is the multi-journey ticket, which is now to be scrapped. Granted, you can then top up your new "smart" card with 28 £ and use this. However this equals a price increase of 27.3 % compared to the current 20 journey ticket for 22 £ (that price was increased from 20 to 22 £ last year, equalling a 10 % increase). All this without any real service improvements, i.e. faster journeys or longer opening times.

    It's also worth noting that the Glasgow Subway operator SPT is a publicly owned and run body, and it seems they are looking for a way to pay for their 300m GBP "upgrade" of the subway.

    For those wondering about lack of protest, there is a quickly growing online petition with well over 500 signatures already. I will post the link in a separate comment, so it can easily be deleted by the admins/publishers, as this happened every other time I posted this somewhere.

    1. Colin Miller

      Re: Some facts about the Glasgow Subway

      The Zone Card works on all trains, buses ad the subway within the old SPT travel area. However, it is expensive unless you need to swap providers regularly.

  18. subwayfan

    Petition link

    Well here's the link to the petition if anyone cares. Please share if you support it.

    http://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/spt-glasgow-subway-improve-service-and-retain-10-20-journey-tickets

  19. SMackay
    Unhappy

    Sorry, this post may be slightly on-topic

    I use the Glasgow underground once or twice a week. I buy a multi-journey ticket. I pay in advance, get a slight discount over the basic fare, and I don't have to queue up to pay cash every time I travel. They are abolishing these multi-journey tickets, either because of a stupid technical restriction, or else as a revenue-raising trick. I will now have to queue up for a ticket every time I travel, as a weekly pass would be very expensive for the odd journey. This is less efficient and will cost me more.

    1. Silverburn
      Facepalm

      Re: Sorry, this post may be slightly on-topic

      This is less efficient and will cost me more

      Ha, ha, that's not inefficient. If you want a true masterclasss in creating an epic clusterfuck of an "efficient transport system", travel 40 miles east to witness the glorious Edinburgh trams. An epic failure on so many levels it defines all logical explanation.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Sorry, this post may be slightly on-topic

        That's only because some arses in the council tried to run a real business and engage a foreign company (with sound credentials) on shitty terms.

  20. Timbo
    Coat

    "You say that a 20 carnet trip costs £22, and a week pass costs £12. So buying 2 week passes, costs £24."

    20 trips is enough for 10 work days (home to work and then back again same day), so 20 trips costing £22 = £1.10 per trip.

    Buying 2x 7 day tickets, costs £24.....but if you are only using it for the same 20 trips (over 10 workdays), that makes £1.20 per trip.

    If one worked 7 days a week, making 28 trips in the 2 week period, it's cheaper than the 20 carnet ticket @ 85p per trip.

  21. Flywheel Silver badge
    FAIL

    "discounted price" "their enduring popularity"

    The 2 phrases that are beloved by punters and loathed by Transport Operators - no wonder there are problems with the system, and no prizes for guessing who loses out.

  22. ukgnome Silver badge

    Boo Hoo

    I commute from Norwich to Ipswich and that costs £306 per month.

    Now that's expensive!

    And what do I get for this?

    An ageing fleet, no free wifi, congestion on the tracks, sometimes I do however get a seat.

    1. Mayor Boris

      Re: Boo Hoo

      Move to Ipswich? Can't be much difference in property prices between the two.

      1. ukgnome Silver badge

        Re: Boo Hoo

        But then I would lose 12k due to a unique on call \ overtime arrangement for another client.

        And also, Ipswich!!!!! Nope I don't think so

        1. Cliff

          Re: Boo Hoo

          >>But then I would lose 12k...

          That would then be a case of making your choices and living with them. 'Fraid I can't join you in shedding tears. I used to pay over £6k/year to travel to work, but I made a decision to take a job that paid well enough for that to be a good idea. Sounds like you've done likewise?

          If the trains are crappy or full, have you considered first class BTW? It's what it's there for.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Boo Hoo

          Then stop whining.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Boo Hoo

        And since houses in Ipswich can't cost more than 3,000 GBP the move will have paid for itself in less than a year with the money you spend commuting.

  23. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Looking forward to this

    I hated it a few years back when they abolished the 28 day ticket (we used to have one) - going to the 20 Journey tickets actually increased my outgoings).

    However, now it's back and it's only £45 a month (at least until they go to Bramble, then who the hell knows what price it'll go up to) - should save a a little.

    I'm a tad uneasy at this interim step, but I'm happy to only have to buy a ticket once a month (or two, depending on when the days fall), rather than 3 times a month again.

    Either way, I know I'm going to end up paying more, so might as well get used to it - given that gas, electricity, council tax and house insurance have all went up this year, it would be a bit of a shock if the Underground didn't (it'll never be the Subway).

  24. Maharg

    Names

    Should they not rename the London Circle line as it is no longer a circle?

    1. Cliff

      Re: Names

      I quite like the 'Spiral Line' idea

      1. Tom 38 Silver badge

        Re: Names

        'Spiral In to Hell Line' is more accurate.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Names

          Don't be so soft! Just take it in the opposite direction and it's going out of hell! Duh!

  25. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Zonecard

    Sounds like the same ripoff as the Zonecard, which is only cheaper than just buying individual returns if you go in at least six days a week.

    SPT have never understood the concept of discounts.

  26. Silverburn
    Thumb Down

    £22???

    Ive been on it.

    *They'd* have to pay *me* to travel on it again.

  27. Squander Two
    Mushroom

    Anecdotal evidence.

    In response to the uncharacteristically humourless Weegie who keeps complaining that the jokes being made here are based on an out-of-date fantasy....

    I love Glasgow to bits. It's one of my favourite places on Earth, and I regard it as home. So I'm not trying to slag it off. But these are still real things that I saw there:

    I was threatened with physical violence by my downstairs neighbour because, when he and a friend had tried to break my front door down the previous day, I hadn't opened the door and invited them in.

    I saw a man using the bus's emergency door-open mechanism in order to jump back on the bus and lean around the bus-driver's anti-assault shield to spit in his face after the bus driver refused to give his obviously at-least-ten-year-old kids free tickets for the under-fives.

    A friend lived in a street in Castlemilk that was terrorised by a local psycho: he'd set light to cars and she couldn't open any of her windows because he'd immediately sneak in, just to scare her. The police told her quite openly that they had a policy of not responding to any 999 calls from that street because the last case against him had collapsed and they were waiting for him to do something and leave better evidence next time.

    Waiting for a bus outside the Odeon at Renfrew Street, I watched a pished ned regale an old woman with a surprisingly in-depth explanation of just how much he loved Buckfast. "It's just really, really... like, nice. I dinnae know what it is exactly. I mean, I do like other drinks, but. But I just really love Buckfast. Something about it, it's just pure brilliant, know what I mean? I remember when I first tried it...." For fifteen minutes.

    Some local kids set fire to my building, with me in it, three times, so they could jump on the back of the fire engines.

    A flat up the road from me got blown up -- proper exploded -- by drug dealers.

    A bunch of gangsters had a little turf war on the Alexandra Parade, which involved bombing each other's shops.

    My downstairs neighbour (a different one this time) chucked his girlfriend out of the flat in the middle of the night. So she kicked the door down. He used to play Bonnie Tyler records loud enough to be heard three streets away, so there were mitigating circumstances.

    A friend of mine got jumped and hospitalised by a huge gang. For a laugh.

    When I went to see Primal Scream on Glasgow Green, some bampot was stabbing a syringe into random members of the crowd. (Yeah, yeah, I know: it was probably Bobby Gillespie.)

    I had fireworks thrown at me by pedestrians and from moving cars for the four weeks prior to Guy Fawke's Night every year. I was once with a friend from the West End, who was actually startled by the bang, while the rest of us Southsiders barely noticed it, it's that routine.

    It was completely normal (before First took over the buses and bought some new ones) to find bus seats missing. Not just vandalised: gone.

    Course, when the seats were still there, they had often been set alight.

    I lost track of the number of times people would ask me, on learning that I lived in Govanhill, "Is it not a bit of a problem with all they pakis?"

    I watched fights kick off on the buses regularly. One involved almost an entire busload of boys in tracksuits singing sectarian songs. The police sent a squad car to stop the bus that time. One involved projectile pizza.

    And, most memorably, I once opened my front door to find a man standing there with his jeans round his knees injecting heroin into the base of his penis.

    No place to raise kids, but God, I love Glasgow.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Anecdotal evidence.

      London's no better these days.

      I had a vagabond regail me for a few pounds as I paused outside my home to smell some flowers.

      I told him to get a job and he called me a bloody snob.

      Fortunately my butler heard, ran out of the house and punched the ill-mannered chap in the goolies.

      I recommend you hire a butler.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Anecdotal evidence.

      In other words,

      Glasgow == Greenock Lite..

    3. Pav
      Thumb Up

      Re: Anecdotal evidence.

      Absolutely love Glasgow! Living in the East End of Glasgow; I've experienced many of the same kind of incidents.

  28. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Glasgow subway's new smart tickets aren't, moan passengers.....

    Are the tickets smarter than many of the passengers though?

  29. Pretendiname
    Flame

    Why it pisses me off:

    I am maybe a corner case, I use the underground sparingly, and many times once a day, as after work I might walk to the train station.

    A 20 jouney ticket can last me up to 3 months, thanks to walking and lift-shares.

    They are going to replace that ticket with a 1 week all I can ride ticket.

    There will be other 'occasional' subway users. For that category of person, it will make the price per journey go from £1.10 to £1.40 at the moment.

    Every time they refurbish a station, prices go up - expect them to with this new system. Last time they did anything pressworthy (Hillhead refurb/Mural/Alisdair Gray) they put the prices up 10%. If Glasgow Subway increase their tickets at the same rate for every station refurbishment a single ticket will cost £12.12.

    Finally - they did this with 2 weeks notice essentially. Giving me no time to use up my journesy!

    Rant over.

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