back to article HP sacks English employees to bag Scots gov jobs cash

HP will axe workers in Sheffield and shunt their roles to Renfrewshire in Scotland to bag a £7m grant from the Scottish government, the Public and Commercial Services (PCS) trade union claims. It's understood the multimillion-pound grant from the public purse is a reward for boosting local employment. About a third of support …

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  1. Ian 45
    FAIL

    English Taxpayers

    English taxpayers giving money to Scotland so they can subsidise jobs at the expense of England. Why dont the English get a vote on an independent Scotland?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: English Taxpayers

      Because many would vote for it to be independent, keeping

      I wouldn't myself, although I think the whole devolution process was an unfair mess, managed by idiots to apease those who could shout louder, and just gave power to even more idiots who could shout loud......

      I say the UK needs to stay United, United we stand, divided we fall...

      But with politics as it is, we'll start having countys breaking away form the Union soon!

      1. Wize

        Re: English Taxpayers

        "Why dont the English get a vote on an independent Scotland?

        "Because many would vote for it to be independent..."

        If the PM wanted to keep Scotland in the UK, why did he head north of the border and campaign for a 'NO' vote?

        That is a red rag to a bull for the Yes vote.

        1. Halfmad

          Re: English Taxpayers

          Only for knuckle draggers - those with any common sense are waiting on the actual non-biased facts to come from the governments on both sides of the border and from the EU etc. Personally I detect Cameron, but I'm very skeptical of anything that comes out of Emperor Salmonds mouth too.

        2. Jess

          why did he head north of the border and campaign

          Because just like the Microsoft/Nokia situation (where if the Nokia share migrates to Android, MS still win.) it is a win-win scenario.

          If Scotland goes, England ends up with a Tory government, long term. (Look at make up of the seats north of the border.) If Scotland stays, it's what they really want, but they need to sort the economy out big time to stay in power.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: English Taxpayers

        Since when has companies relocating employees to cheaper, third world countries been news?

      3. Dazed and Confused Silver badge

        Re: English Taxpayers

        There is no reason why the English should have a vote in Scottish independence. If we want to independent of Scotland there is nothing to stop us voting in some so inclined politicos to put together an English independence bill.

        If and when the Scot's decide to go their own way however, we'd damn well better get a vote on whether we want to share a currency with an independent nation. As the Eurozone have proved recently, sharing a currency while having independence doesn't work.

        1. Pax681

          Re: English Taxpayers

          really? no monetary union????

          you do realise that a sterling monetary union is NOTHING NEW

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_punt#Second_pound

          The irish Were in one with the pound for YEARS before the euro and Irish notes and coins were produced by the ROYAL MINT.. again try doing some research before you open your mouth and let yer belly rumble!

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Pound Sterling in use by Isle of Man and Channel Islands

            The Pound is fully convertible, anyone can use it

            Australia also used it for years

    2. knarf

      Re: English Taxpayers

      Because English are from England and Scottish are from Scotland.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Because Scotland is a NET CONTRIBUTOR TO THE UK EXCHEQUER

      This is going to come as a shock to you, but Scotland puts more into the Exchequer and gets less out than the UK as a whole.

      For putting that money in, Scotland gets a lesser portion back, it can't borrow, it can't print money like the BoE, it has a fixed budget.

      It then has to balance it's pocket money.

      If you want those policies, form or vote for a party that will put them in place

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Because Scotland is a NET CONTRIBUTOR TO THE UK EXCHEQUER

        No it doesn't, Scotland gets a much higher per person net expenditure than the rest of the UK, and produces much lower revenues.

        The only way Scotland can pretend not to be a burden on the rest of us is if you count off shore oil / gas, which is a national asset and not the result of Scottish productivity.

        1. Pax681
          Thumb Down

          Re: Because Scotland is a NET CONTRIBUTOR TO THE UK EXCHEQUER

          oh really... i think you'll find that the per capita spend goes like this

          top of the list.. London... then Northern Ireland then Scotland.. but hey.. don't let facts get in your way

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Per Capita Spent does not negate Net Contributor

            One can get money back, but still contribute more to the pot, which is what is happening.

            Also, that per capita spent includes money spent in Lodon, on MOD for example, on "Scotland's behalf"

    4. Gregor
      FAIL

      Re: English Taxpayers

      RE: Why don't the English get a vote on an independent Scotland - because the principle is SELF determination - i.e., each nation deciding its own future. England is equally able to decide its own future, in or out of the union :-)

      As for "English" taxpayers - well, erm, bit of a newsflash, but those in Northern Ireland, Wales and yes, even people in Scotland pay taxes too.

      Although Scotland has 8.4% of the UK's population, about 9.3% of all UK spending is up here. Many people would say that that suggests a subsidy, as you have done. What that fails to take into account is that 9.9% of all the UK's revenue comes from Scotland.

      So in fact, Scotland subsidises the rest of the UK, not the other way around.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: English Taxpayers

        Sorry - there is some confusion here:

        You state that 9.9% of UK GDP comes from Scotland - close I think, was nearer 8.8% in 2011 but this is not the same as UK Government revenue (tax receipts) which is a bit lower still at around 8.1% (2011 figures) whereas Scotland receives, as you say, 9.3% of public sector spending.

        In short the tax take (including oil taxes) is proportionally lower against GDP per head than in the UK which is why Scotland is currently running a (proportionally) higher deficit.

        There is an argument that the discrepancy between GDP contribution and tax contribution is due to the fact that the overall subsidy from the UK to Scotland artificially boosts the Scottish GDP - these are very much related factors.

        Personally I neither condemn nor condone Scottish independence, my own heritage is Scottish, Irish and French, but be careful what you wish for. It is much easier to predict how things would be if nothing changed, vs. what does appear to be a massive gamble.

        Welcome further debate.

        1. Pax681

          Re: English Taxpayers

          what youy are also failing to consider as a factor is that the only oil and gas revenues counted in the G.E.R.S figures(govt expenditure and revenue Scotland) figures are ON SHORE revenues. The oil and gas revenues are hidden as earnings from "Extra-regio territories" so add those on.... and you'll find a different story.

          Also you'll find that 20% of all corporation tax revenues in the UK are from Scotland.

          As to the "careful what you wish for" silliness.... well put simply you'll find that the 500 questions put up by the "better together campaign" are unanswerable as they can only be answered by two sets of circumstances.......

          one that Westminster , as recommended by the electoral commission, entered into pre-negotiations with the present Scottish Govt so as to clarify positions and probabilities.

          Two they could only be answered by the elected govt of an independent Scotland... an election that won't happen till 2016 should a yes vote occur.

          Also we have the OECD making a laughing stock of the office of budget responsibilities figures... telling us that the oil/gas in the North Sea alone would be worth up to 4 trillion(min 1.5 trillions).. i wish my life could be THAT uncertain.

          Also there is oil/gas off the West coast and a lion share of the Claim at Rockall(shared with Iceland and Ireland) now those assets lend stability, especially when managed using the Norwegian Model which gives Norway a state oil fund which bailed out the world bank from pocket change.....

          Also, as recently described by Lesley Riddoch, a journalist.. Scotland "is the Saudi Arabia of renewables" both in terms of use but also research..

          Mind you, come independence we will have back the 6000 square miles of Scottish waters re-zoned on the fly by Blair and Brown in 1999... a ridiculous situation whereby if you sail 12 miles off the coast of Fife.. you are in English waters.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: English Taxpayers

            "The oil and gas revenues are hidden as earnings from "Extra-regio territories" so add those on.... and you'll find a different story."

            But that's in the middle of the Ocean and nothing to do with Scotland. Hence why it is excluded.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Scvotl;and's International Waters

              Your argument that it is "nothing to do with Scotland" is silly.

              Perhpas I can dig up the New Forest? The Royal Line that planted it died out, it's nothing to do with England. I'll have it then

            2. Pax681

              Re: English Taxpayers

              well the legal experts at the European Journal of International Law would beg to differ with you on that and i would hazard a guess they , being experts in international law would know better than you or I.

              They are on Scotland's portion of the continental shelf.. and thus... Scottish.... and thus for tax and revenue purposes.. Scottish... so they invent "extra-regio territories" to hide the extent of the riches of Scottish revenues

              It excluded so as to artificially deflate Scotland's contribution to the UK.

              This is something that BOTH the OECD and the European Journal of international law have stated as did Ted Heath when he admitted in a recent interview that Successive tory and labour govts have lied their asses off about the worth and amount of Scottish oil and gas for YEARS.

              Also there's the McCrone report by a govt economist which was declared a state secret which stated that Scotland, as an independent nation would " be in an embarrassingly large surplus as an independent nation" as compared to it's then position within the UK(1973/4)

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: English Taxpayers

                My wife used to be a lab chemist for Big Oil, she analysed oil from wells all around the world, and assures me that the oil coming out of the North Sea at the moment is "shit" it's "the worst oil [she] has ever analysed". Basically these oil fields are dead and dying, new techniques are able to exploit them more, to get oils out which used to be un-economical to exploit, there are a few gas fields which are giving up some good gas, but that's about it.

                Not to mention: What sort of political party peg their country's future on a finite resource which fluctuates in price? Even if there is lots of good oil, there needs to be something else.

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: English Taxpayers

            " come independence we will have back the 6000 square miles of Scottish waters re-zoned on the fly by Blair and Brown in 1999... a ridiculous situation whereby if you sail 12 miles off the coast of Fife.. you are in English waters."

            No you won't be getting it 'back' - why do you think they did it? You lot are a bit slow up North....

            1. Pax681

              Re: English Taxpayers

              oh we will be getting it back... check out what the European journal of international law has to say about it.. as does international law and maritime law...

              Westminster doesn't have a leg to stand on when it comes to that one Mr AC troll

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: English Taxpayers

                But that law only applies to countries that are a part of the EU....

              2. TheVogon Silver badge
                Mushroom

                Re: English Taxpayers

                Oh but you are wrong, precedents have been set already by the existing territorial divisions, and International law is clear that it is a matter of negotiation to change them - "International law provides procedures for resolving the dispute rather than any clear answer."

                American international lawyer Professor David Scheffer says: "I don't think anyone should say that the law of the sea is static on this issue of where do you draw the line in the North Sea that would determine who has jurisdiction over which part of the reserves.....international law has always invited negotiation on how to draw that line."

                Prof Kemp says there have been departures from the median line principle in various settlements around the world, including judgements made by the International Court.

                International credit rating agency Fitch recently put out a note which said: "A geographical division of oil is an extreme outcome."

      2. Nuke
        Facepalm

        @Gregor - Re: English Taxpayers

        Wrote :- "RE: Why don't the English get a vote on an independent Scotland - because the principle is SELF determination - i.e., each nation deciding its own future. England is equally able to decide its own future, in or out of the union"

        Er ..... paradox there. Wouldn't the English (and Welsh) voting in a Scottish-independence-from-England/Wales referendum be exactly the same in principle as the Engish/Welsh voting in a English/Welsh-independence-from-Scotland referendum? I take it you would not object to the latter? Your own argument could be used to claim that Scottish people should be _excluded_ from a referendum on the split!

        So it wouldn't it be logical to allow English, Welsh and Scottish _all_ to vote in a England/Wales - Scotland split. No ?

        The paradox is rooted in your treatment of Scotland as a nation. It is not, nor is England; they ceased to be nations in 1707. Today, Great Britain is a nation and a split would affect all the people.

        I loved the way a Scottish Nationalist summed up his position on TV news once. It was like "We think London is too far away from Scotland to understand its problems. So we want to be ruled from Brussels."

        1. Pax681

          Re: @Gregor - English Taxpayers

          <blockquote>The paradox is rooted in your treatment of Scotland as a nation. It is not, nor is England; they ceased to be nations in 1707</blockquote>

          I would re-read and then get a legal opinion on that piece of idiocy....

          Scotland and England NEVER ceased to be nations.... not ever.

          why do you think there are separate and distinct legal systems in place???

          why do you think that when, for example the Westminster apllied for the share of the oil/gas off Rockall it did so "For and on Behalf of the Nation of Scotland"........ research that.. you might learn something

          1. Jamie Jones Silver badge
            FAIL

            Re: @Gregor - English Taxpayers

            "Scotland and England NEVER ceased to be nations.... not ever."

            So, what is the ISO country code for England?

    5. Irongut

      Re: English Taxpayers

      We pay taxes too. How do you knbow it isn't our own taxes paying for this you sassenach?

    6. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: English Taxpayers

      You havent heard of the "Oil and Gas" and "Scotch Whisky" indutries I guess!!!???!!?

      Oh Dear.............

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: English Taxpayers

        a lot of the "Scotch Whisky" industry uses English barley.

        Though there is a flourishing English whiskey distillery not so many miles from where I am typing. Benefits from one of Scotland's greatest exports - Scotsmen (and women - though not in this case)

        1. Kubla Cant Silver badge

          Re: English Taxpayers

          Other important things Scotland contributes to the UK economy:

          RBS

          Clydesdale Bank

          HBOS (the last third of this one)

          Fred Goodwin's pension

          1. Anonymous Custard Silver badge

            Re: English Taxpayers

            It does make you wonder what the outcry would (or wouldn't) be if there were sessions in Westminster where the laws of England were voted on (as distinct from those of the UK), from which MPs from Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland were excluded.

            Fundamentally that seems to be the heart of the law debate - that all MPs seem to get a vote on English law as well as UK law, which isn't the case for Scottish, Welsh and N. Irish law due to their having their own separate parliaments/assemblies/etc.

            Such a distinction would I guess help as tax and suchlike would then follow suit along similar lines. Although for those who want closer ties rather than a group of essentially separate nations then it wouldn't be as welcome probably.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: English Taxpayers

              <quote>It does make you wonder what the outcry would (or wouldn't) be if there were sessions in Westminster where the laws of England were voted on (as distinct from those of the UK), from which MPs from Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland were excluded.

              Fundamentally that seems to be the heart of the law debate - that all MPs seem to get a vote on English law as well as UK law, which isn't the case for Scottish, Welsh and N. Irish law due to their having their own separate parliaments/assemblies/etc.

              Such a distinction would I guess help as tax and suchlike would then follow suit along similar lines. Although for those who want closer ties rather than a group of essentially separate nations then it wouldn't be as welcome probably.</endquote>

              Because Westminster is the UK parliament, not the English parliament, if you want an English parliament and independence from the Union then vote for it.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Actually English MPs DO get to vote on purely Scottish matters

                It's rarer than it used to be, but it still happens, and Scottish Questions is usually dominated by English MPs

            2. __________

              English Parliament

              Interestingly enough I doubt you'd get much argument from the people of the other parts of the UK.

              But you woul;d have to do a proper job of delineating between UK and English issues

            3. Pax681

              Re: English Taxpayers

              that was the point of Tam Dalyell's "West Lothian Question" in the 1970's

              Under the act of the union separate and distinct legal systems were guaranteed for Scotland and England.. with few exceptions reserved to Westminster

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: English Taxpayers

            RBS and HBOS are registered on the LONDON Stock Exchange. You may have heard of London, it is in England.

            Not sure where the Clydesdale comes into it, as it wasn't hit like the others.

            Now, the"bailout" for such banks comes form the country in which the business is done. So, a large wodge of cash came from the Yanks.

            Only 10% of it's business was in Scotland, so that would have been that share. The rest from Westminster

            Where do RBS and HBOS and their employees pay their taxes to in the good times? Who will get th ebenefit of the sale, Westminster, nothing to do with Scotland

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: English Taxpayers

              @AC 12:32 GMT:

              Just because a company is registered on the LONDON Stock Exchange, does not mean it is English. There are hundreds of foreign companies listed on the LSE, because they either maintain multiple listings (one on LSE and one in their home country), or because they are attracted by the regulatory regime. Do NOT make a simplistic assumption based on listing. HSBC for example is listed in London, Hong Kong, New York and Paris, amongst others. Which country identity do they adopt?

              Here are the registered headquarters addresses for RBS and HBOS:

              Registered Head Office of The Royal Bank of Scotland Group: St Andrew Square, Edinburgh

              Registered Head Office of The Lloyds Banking Group: The Mound, Edinburgh

              The Lloyds Banking group includes Lloyds TSB Bank plc (with registered head office in Gresham Street, London) and Bank of Scotland plc (with registered head office at The Mound, Edinburgh). Halifax is a subsidiary of Bank of Scotland plc and trades under their banking licence.

              HSBC (HSBC Holdings) on the other hand: 8 Canada Square, London.

              That makes Lloyds/HBOS and RBS Scottish, and HSBC English. Simples.

              1. petetp
                Unhappy

                Re: English Taxpayers

                >That makes Lloyds/HBOS and RBS Scottish, and HSBC English. Simples.

                Err... HSBC, the Hong Kong and Shanghai Banking Corporation, is as "English" as egg foo yung.

                All big corporations are multinational monstrosities that take their profits wherever they can get them, and if that means screwing over two "nations" in one country to blackmail a few million ito encourage them to bring a few hundred jobs to their country and make a few politicians look better, that's just fine by them.

                Ker-ching, thanks mugs!

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: English Taxpayers

                  A tiny bit of history for you:

                  Hong Kong used to belong to Britain. Before the lease reverted back to China, HSBC moved the majority of their operation, to Britain, in order to avoid being appropriated by the Chinese.

                  So, the Hong Kong, Shanghai Banking Corporation is as English as Chicken Tikka Masala.

            2. Kubla Cant Silver badge

              Re: English Taxpayers

              @AC 12:32

              RBS and HBOS are registered on the LONDON Stock Exchange. You may have heard of London, it is in England.

              And if they were Scottish they'd be registered on the Edinburgh Stock Exchange? I think the last business done there was to finance the Darien Scheme (another Scottish financial disaster - the financial fallout from this was the main reason for the Union).

              1. Pax681

                Re: English Taxpayers

                The Darrien scheme that failed due to the Blockade of Scotland and the routes to south American by the English Navy?

                Yeah.. that Darrien scheme.... and the union was brought about by that crash ... plus the Alien act making it illegal to trade with Scotland or even employ Scots in England.

                The Nobles might have been mostly skint by the Darrien Scheme but the towns and Burghs were far from it.

                Then we have the bribery by English Govt Agent Defoe....

                And then the fact that it was actually an illegally convened Scottish parliament who passed the act here.

                The people of Scotland didn't want the union....

                In fact there were riots in the streets in Ayr, Glasgow,Edinburgh,Dumfries, Dunfermline, Aberdeen and other places.

                Burns even wrote a poem about it called "Parcel O' Rogues"

                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Such_a_Parcel_of_Rogues_in_a_Nation

                Also, you'll find that the Edinburgh Stock exchange didn't exist in 1706/7

                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edinburgh_Stock_Exchange

              2. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Yes darien was a disaster

                But not for Scotland, only for the investors in the scheme. Like the South Sea and Railway bubbles later.

                The nobles and worthies were ruined, which is why they took English subsidies in order to sign the Treaty of Union.

                The armies on the borders, and the seizing of Scottish ships, in fact, the Bill going through Westmister to make it legal to seize any Scots ship, all might have contributed to that

          3. Pax681
            Thumb Down

            Re: English Taxpayers

            RBS... HBOS, Clydesdale bank........ all owned by multinationals...

            Just because they started in Scotland doesn't make them Scottish any more.. they became huge multinationals.. in fact the clydesdale was bought over in 1988 by an Aussie bank , as was the midland Bank.

            please read further than the bloody daily mail for yer facts

        2. Dave Perry
          Thumb Up

          Re: English Taxpayers

          I like Scotswomen personally - their accent gives me a nice feeling :)

      2. FanMan

        Re: English Taxpayers

        Oil and gas are declining and Scotch whisky is subject to volatile changes in consumer taste, and peanuts in global terms anyway. Get real. We Scors need to stay inside the tent.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: English Taxpayers

          This "Oil and Gas are declining" bit

          I take it that is why there have been so many announcements of investment in the Oil and Gas industry?

          That the lifetimes of the fields keep getting extended?

          That these are volatile is apparently NOT a problem when the UK Exchequer wishes to use them, and the Finance Industry, only the Scots

          Fancy that

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: English Taxpayers

            Oil and Gas have near zero to do with Scotland anyway other than happening to be off the coast of it.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: English Taxpayers

              "Oil and Gas have near zero to do with Scotland anyway other than happening to be off the coast of it."

              Really? I guess I must be imagining the industry that runs and supports it, including all the companies and workers in and around Aberdeen and the rest of the North East and North of Scotland, the oil depot in Sullom Voe, Shetland, the Gas processing plants at St Fergus and Mossmorran, the refineries at Grangemouth.

              But maybe you're right, the petrol and gas just go straight from the sea to your local petrol station and your cooker don't they?

              I mean whisky's got nothing to do with Scotland has it, just happens to be distilled there?

              Retard.

              1. graeme leggett

                Re: English Taxpayers

                "Gas processing plants at St Fergus and Mossmorran"

                My gas comes ashore at Bacton on the coast of Norfolk from the southern parts of the North Sea.

              2. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: English Taxpayers

                Aberdeen is just a stopping off point for ships and helicopters. Of the well over 100 oil + gas companies with offices there, only 5 of them are actually Scottish. And 4 of those are tiny.

                If you think that oil and gas can't be removed by ship or a pipeline that doesnt end in Scotland then you are sadly mistaken...

            2. John Brown (no body) Silver badge
              Flame

              Re: English Taxpayers

              "Oil and Gas have near zero to do with Scotland anyway other than happening to be off the coast of it."

              IIRC, the United Nations guidance on offshore territory is decided by following the general direction of the border between adjoining countries and projecting out to sea. Since the English/Scottish border trends approximately southwest--> northeast, that would place significant portions of the UK oil and gas fields in English rather than Scottish waters.

    7. Gav
      FAIL

      Fooled again

      As usual, a multinational plays one country off against another, and the petty minded in both fall for it _every_ _single_ _time_. This only twist in this is that its both countries in the United Kingdom.

      HP laugh all the way to the bank with their subsidised profit, while the blind nationalists on both sides argue between themselves. I hope those flags you're wrapping yourselves in are warm, because a multinational has fleeced you, yet again.

    8. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: English Taxpayers

      Do shut up. Londoners get more subsidy than the Scots per head. Scotland also provides more funds to the English than it gets back (as well as having its resources stripped by the English).

      High-time Scotland went independent. Maybe a few of the North England counties would join and free themselves from the corrupt cancer that is London.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Megaphone

        Re: English Taxpayers

        I agree London gets the most heavily subsidised. Personally I think we end devolution because it causes more division (The "Scottish Police" force instead of Scottish regional police is a great example of this) and costs a lot of money.

        Some of the devolved powers could then be passed onto LGA's (tuition fees, prescription medicine, etc..), so people would get more say on how certain things are spent, this would make Local Councillors more important.

        We should then force parliament to sit in a different country each year, i.e. Year 1 Belfast, Year 2 Cardiff, Year 3 Edinburgh, Year 4 Westminster.

        The issues which caused Scotland to want to devolve are the intense London centric view of our government, perhaps if we forced them to see the rest of the UK they would start spreading government investment. Secondly since we are already paying for them to stay in London, the cost of 1 year paying for a 12 month contract in Cardiff, Belfast, Edinburgh, etc... should cancel out the relocation costs (since they are cheaper to live in).

        *Just my own opinion

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: English Taxpayers

        London gets more subsidy than the scots per head? You sure about that?

        http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-2100345/Londons-taxes-prop-rest-UK-One-pound-earned-capital-funds-rest-country.html

        1. Pax681

          Re: English Taxpayers

          yes it's a fact from official govt figures...

          London top per capita spending... then northern Ireland then Scotland

        2. Gav
          Facepalm

          Re: English Taxpayers

          Re: http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-2100345/Londons-taxes-prop-rest-UK-One-pound-earned-capital-funds-rest-country.html

          A stupid comparison if there ever was one. This is the result of a capital city doing what a capital city is supposed to do. If there wasn't a concentration of money and resources, and therefore taxes, in London it would be failing in its role as a capital.

          I've no problem with London getting more money spent on it. It's a huge capital city, so no surprise it takes the lion's share of investment . But the line needs to be drawn when those in London start bleating about how they're paying money out to the rest of the country. You're living in the capital. That's your job. If London doesn't want to be the capital any more, I'm sure there would be other cities happy to take on the responsibility and the perks.

        3. Adam-the-Kiwi

          Re Re: English Taxpayers (12:26)

          Interestingly, from that report:

          "The figures will be relevent to the ongoing discussion of independence for Scotland. Scotland receives no net subsidy." (sic)

        4. Jamie Jones Silver badge
          FAIL

          Re: English Taxpayers

          "London gets more subsidy than the scots per head? You sure about that?

          http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-2100345/Londons-taxes-prop-rest-UK-One-pound-earned-capital-funds-rest-country.html"

          How many big government employers - paid for by the tax from ALL OVER THE UK - are based in London and the South East?

          Londoners/Southerners seem to miss that point

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: English Taxpayers

        "Do shut up. Londoners get more subsidy than the Scots per head. Scotland also provides more funds to the English than it gets back (as well as having its resources stripped by the English)."

        Yes, because comparing London to the whole of Scotland is sensible. There are far more organs of the state and infrastructure based in London than there are across the rest of the country, this is a classic false argument peddled by the SNP because it sounds shocking, however doesn't stand up to any cursory examination.

      4. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: English Taxpayers

        Londoners also make much more of a contribution to the GDP than the Scots per head...

    9. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: English Taxpayers

      If the English were given a vote in the referendum for Scottish Independence, there would be an overwhelming win for severance.

      Darling and Brown could just have messed up the local government economies in their own constituencies, instead of taking the whole of Britain into permanent recession.

  2. g e
    FAIL

    Classy

    That must be one of the most openly cynical things I've read of a company doing in a good while.

    Nice one HP, remind me not to buy your stuff.

  3. graeme leggett

    More employment but poorer jobs?

    So the UK (as a whole) is paying HP to shift jobs around.

    Presumably HP can do one of two things. Hire from the well-qualified tech staff available in Scotland - to replace those it had taken on under good employment terms (TUPE) in Sheffield - on a like for like basis. Or hire less-experienced and cheaper staff in the new locale.

    Hmmm.....

    1. gerryg
      Gimp

      Re: More employment but poorer jobs?

      ...but will they pay corporation tax on their improved profits?

  4. frank ly Silver badge

    Anybody who uses 'transition' as a verb ...

    should be transferred to a bad place.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Anybody who uses 'transition' as a verb ...

      may I recommend Dundee? As I mentioned to a colleague earlier - by coincidence - without a shadow of a doubt the most racist place I have ever visited in my life - and I'm including some of the slightly wackier parts of the US in that (some of which make the most extreme 1970s Afrikaners seem cuddly). Definitely unpleasant.

      1. Pax681

        Re: Anybody who uses 'transition' as a verb ...

        i call bullshit right now on that.

        let's look at it from a viewpoint of membership in the likes of the EDL and their Scottish counterparts.. the SDL

        The EDL have membership of THOUSANDS all over England and are crazy, racist, mental assholes...

        In Scotland there are less than 100 SDL members and they are despised.

        And the extent of the BNP's membership in Scotland became known after the membership list leak a few years ago... it was also under 100... sitting then at about 86.

        England as a whole is FAR more right wing leaning than Scotland.. this is simple fact. just look at how far right the labour party has swung to the right to catch that "Middle England " vote.....

        So far right that they have actually abandoned any pretence of "socialism".

        I have travelled extensively over the past couple of years from Scotland down to Nottingham via Leeds and Sheffield and have found the racial tension to be incredibly horrendous.. all racial groups seemed to be at each other throats.... none of which is helped by the likes of the EDL, BNP and UKIP which all seem to have a lot of interchangeable membership

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Anybody who uses 'transition' as a verb ...

          But you have far fewer foreigners / muslims, etc in Scotland, so not surprising you have fewer objections to them...Once they start moving cheap illegal labour in to your country, abusing your children, bombing public places and killing soldiers on your streets, then you might just see a sharp climb in membership of similar organisations....

      2. Intractable Potsherd Silver badge

        Re: Anybody who uses 'transition' as a verb ...

        Right - I'm from a place near Sheffield, and now live in Dundee - I think I have something to add to this. Dundee is worse than Sheffield in several ways. Sheffield, even when it was going through the bulk of its post-steel depression and reinvention was always a very safe place to live - the universities there made a big thing of how few "no-go" areas there were in Sheffield, and especially for foreign staff/students (I think you were more likely to be given some bother if you were a southerner).* Dundee, on the other hand, going through its post-industrial change now, is a city full of no-go areas, often next to very nice areas, with no way of telling the difference as a stranger. It is a place that should be so much better than it is - lovely location by a huge estuary and close to the sea, surrounded by very nice countryside. However, it is a bit of a shit-tip in all respects - it is no secret that professionals who work in Dundee (health service, university, police, legal services) rarely live in Dundee, preferring Perthshire or places in Fife. When we get round to looking for a house of our own, it won't be in Dundee, that's for sure. I have rarely lived in a place where people are so fucking rude as a default - and no, it isn't "working class bluntness": remember, I'm from South Yorkshire. People here in general seem to resent every other person in the world, especially those with non-Dundee accents (so that includes people from Perth and Fife!).

        On a different topic: shitwit AC bringing up the "Muslim hordes" argument - ODFOAD!

        * This has changed a bit, but regrettably to say that there are some areas that Anglo-Saxons should avoid, though Asians are advised not to go to some areas where African/Afro-Carribean people have settled, and vice versa.

  5. Elmer Phud

    You know when you've been Tupped.

  6. Ralph B
    IT Angle

    Make It Better

    >> HP is in the process of slashing 27,000 29,000 jobs worldwide by 2014, as part of an ironically entitled “make it better” programme.

    Yeah, maybe it should be called "make it less", but less HP is better for the rest of us, so maybe the programme has the right name after all.

    (Nevertheless, my sympathy to the 29,000. And also to those condemned to remain at HP.)

  7. This post has been deleted by a moderator

    1. FanMan

      Relax

      It's not going to happen. The Scots (myself included) may be daft but they're not stooped.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Relax

        @FatMan - I totally agree: People who aren't blinded by hatred of the English, who tend to be the more poorly educated and susceptible to Nationalist preaching, can see through a motives of an Economist who actually stands up and preaches about how pinning the economy of your country on a finite product which fluctuates in price.

        I no longer live in Scotland, but my friends and relatives who do say that the most people who want Independence are the people who will profit from it in terms of power and the people who say "it's pride, mate, it's about national pride".

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          You did know there are English people in the SNP and the other parties?

          True, some of them are even MPs, MSPs and members of the Scottish Parliament

          The blind hatred and poorly educated seem to come from the side supporting the Union. Which is why, one assumes, they attract the EDL, the Orange Lodge, the Progressive Unionist Party and the BNP.

          1. Intractable Potsherd Silver badge

            Re: You did know there are English people in the SNP and the other parties?

            As posted elsewhere, I'm from England now in Dundee. I am tempted very much to vote for Scottish independence next year unless there are some very serious changes in how Westminster is going to relate to Scotland. So much here is done so much better than England (e.g. no NHS Trusts, so the service actually works!) However, if I'd been given the option, I'd have voted for Yorkshire to be independent. The current setup is too biases towards the South-East and a bunch of people that have no clue what the effects of their decisions are going to be on those in different areas. I can't see any *really* negative effects of being independent of London.

      2. This post has been deleted by its author

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      No government runs its business in another country... really?

      Scotland IS another country. Wales IS another country... Northern Ireland... well... *whistles*

      Just because they are in a union with us does not make them any less of a country than they are...

      1. This post has been deleted by its author

        1. Pax681

          obviously you have never actually read and understood the wording of the act of the union ;)

      2. JayBizzle

        "No government runs its business in another country... really?

        Scotland IS another country. Wales IS another country... Northern Ireland... well... *whistles*

        Just because they are in a union with us does not make them any less of a country than they are..."

        Wales is a Principality not a country.

        1. Pax681

          tell that to the Welsh :P

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          "Wales is a Principality not a country."

          I mentioned that to one of my Welsh friends at the pub the other day, when he was bemoaning no Welsh representation in the flag. He said "You do know that we have an assembly now." One of our other friends retorted "yeah, my school had one of those."

  8. NightFox
    Facepalm

    Oh, the irony...

    The 124 workers facing redundancy designed and maintained systems for the UK government's Department of Work and Pensions (DWP), such as those used by Job Centre Plus offices, said the PCS.

  9. FanMan

    So they'll "transition" them, eh?

    Oh. You mean "move".

    Well why the **** didn't you say so?

    1. Anonymous Custard Silver badge

      Re: So they'll "transition" them, eh?

      'Cos then you'd know exactly what they were talking about and could immediately get upset by it, rather than hiding it for long enough that they can scarper.

      I mean it's not as if they want to be clear that they're giving bad news when they can dress it up as something else.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: So they'll "transition" them, eh?

      I think the difference between "transition" and "move" is amount of time and expense the former takes

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    It wouldn't have to sack so many staff to save money...

    ...if HP management didn't make $19 BILLION dollar cock-ups on a regular basis.

    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/02/26/shareholders_rolling_heads_hp_board/

    It's OK though - HP Execs still keep getting their million $$ bonuses and salaries, so they are OK.

    Welcome to the world of the 1% and fuck all the proles!

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    This is how any country like Scotland will get business, through being cheap. There is simply not that many other reasons for big businesses to base themselves there.

    Hardly the best reason.

  12. Wize

    It doesn't usually make big news when...

    ...it all heads south.

    People only get upset when these changes are not in their favour.

    1. Intractable Potsherd Silver badge

      Re: It doesn't usually make big news when...

      Whilst I do feel sorry for Sheffield - it still has quite high unemployment - there is a lot more unemployment up here in Scotland.

  13. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Eh..

    The article did state that some of the jobs were being moved to Newcastle, in the interests of balance, could we also see some vitriol being directed at the Geordies please? Or could we all just calm down a bit and realise that this story has nothing to do with the Scottish independence debate.

  14. Magister

    Happens everywhere

    I used to work where we could look out and see a large building, paid for by the Regional Development Fund. As well as the building of the new site, the (US owned) company concerned received a nice little wedge to move jobs to the area.

    12 months later, they closed the business down, made all the staff unemployed and moved the work to another part of the world where they were getting a similar cash bung.

    4 years later, the empty building is still there; the local council receives no rates on it and despite all efforts, can't find anyone to buy it. However, they have to maintain the land outside of the building at a cost of around £20,000 per year.

    Our CEO was furious; he had asked for a much smaller amount to extend our factory, but was refused the grant. (He eventually borrowed the money, made the investment and developed our site increasing employment, without any public money.)

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Happens everywhere

      Magister, sounds just like LG who got a nice wodge from the Welsh government, only to shut the site down four or so years later... They were forced to pay back a lot though.

      1. Magister

        Re: Happens everywhere

        It was a pharma outfit.

        The RDA and local gov tried to get thie rmoney; they were told not to waste their time and money as it would cost more than they would get back.

  15. Anonymous Coward 101
    Thumb Down

    Newcastle

    I note that the HP spokesman said that some of the jobs were being transferred to Newcastle as well as Scotland. What proportion of workers are being transferred to Newcastle, and were HP being offered subsidy to move to Newcastle?

    As an aside, I note that whenever big companies (e.g. Lexmark, Solectron) are bribed to move to Scotland, they often just take the cash, operate the factory for a few years, then fuck off. Will it be different this time?

  16. raving angry loony

    Divide and conquer

    Corporations are really good at dividing and conquering, especially the multinationals. Get regional governments arguing with each other and they then don't notice that they're ALL getting screwed around and generally ripped off. Meanwhile, these corporations take massive taxpayer funded subsidies and call it "free enterprise".

  17. Halfmad

    Why is this suddenly becoming abash scotland discussion?

    I do love how this is twisted into an English V Scotland thing, would it have had that much impact if the Newcastle part of the story had been the main focus? Probably not, but then again bigots do thrive on bad journalism.

    Dragging the referendum into the comments is purely retarded, it has absolutely nothing to do with the story. Let's all have a crack at Scotland whenever possible, but let's ignore the fact that a large number of English folk living in Scotland get to vote in the referendum, that Scotland is a net contributor in taxes and the fact that it's likely to remain part of the UK anyway, especially if the Scottish 16-18 year olds get a say :)

  18. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    The grant to HP is contingent on NEW jobs created - the grant money is NOT paid out on jobs transferring to the Renfrewshire site from other sites in the UK. The 721 jobs MUST be new posts. There may be many more than 721 "new" jobs in Renfrewshire - but only the 721 real new posts can trigger grant payout.

    There are very speciifc rules in place to prevent different regions in the UK poaching jobs from each other to gain regional grants.

    Notice its the union man that makes the grant accusation - his prime concern is whipping up histeria to try to save his members jobs.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Though the Renfrewshire creation grant may still be acting as an incentive for HP to make the move. Making the consolidation of existing and new jobs at one site much more "cost effective".

      Equally sometimes companies invent consildation to justify a white elephant they are commited to.

      The movement of the MAFF central laboratory from a site where it was cheek-by-jowl with the Institute of Food Research and the John Innes to a new building in York is one case. The new Sand Hutton building was under-occupied because its activities had been reduced.

  19. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Why is this being allowed?

    Great, lets allows firms to hijack us! Giving grants fo generating local jobs, only for them to be "transferred" elsewhere at a later date? Sounds like highway robbery to me!

    Once again, the rich get richer and the poor get poorer and we're subsidising it! W T F is going on?

  20. This post has been deleted by its author

  21. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    As some Nazi decided he could delete a perfectly reasonable post, I've withdrawn all the posts I put on this topic.

    It's not worth attempting to contribute to any discussioin where some Nazi removes perfectly reasonable and legal comment, just because he/she doesn't like it.

    Really El Reg, I'm disappointed, disgusted even.

  22. This post has been deleted by its author

  23. Polyphonic
    Devil

    Back to the subject

    Are HP truly evil or just pretending? They do know how to f*ck up a company.

  24. Boris the Cockroach Silver badge
    Meh

    I cant wait

    for the Shetland isles to declare independence , then Scotland will be royally ****ed.

    Or would King Alex send the army in....... ?

    Because thats what all the scottish independence is about, having a king Alex rather than some useless eton twat as prime minister

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: I cant wait

      Sssshhhhhh!!!! Don't mention that the Shetland Isles and the Orkney Isles were independent states allied to England before the Union. Before you know it the dumb nationalist racists will figure out that if they leave, and the the Shetlanders and Orkney Islanders revert back to being independent, they'll take all the claimed 'Scottish'oil' with them, and Scotland will be completely fucked. We need to be very careful they don't catch onto this, or we'll all have to listen to their racist ranting for evermore.

      (I suppose there are some advantages to knowing this thread is being policed by some cowardly Nazi who won't explain why they remove perfectly reasonable and legal posts, if you're removing stuff just because of your personal feelings about it, I can just say whatever the hell I like, in fact it's incumbent upon me to do so, upholding my right to freedom of speech and all that.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        well that's untrue

        1) They were part of the Kingdom of Norway

        2) They have done polls there. Guess what, the Zetlanders and Orcadians would prefer to go with Scotland than stay in the UK

        3) even if they did, islands in another nations waters get treated in a particlar way. Basically the oil and gas do not go with Orkney nor the Shetlands as they are enclaves in another nations waters

    2. Pax681

      Re: I cant wait

      actually it wouldn't if Shetland went independent it would be legally classed as an "Enclave" and thus only have 12 miles of territorial waters inside Scottish waters which would extend 200 miles.

      you reallY haven't a clue.

      As for the "king Alex" crap.. who says they are going to be the govt of the day in an independent Scotland... that's for the electorate to decide in the first post independence elections.

      And seeing as the Reason D'etre of the SNP will be achieved.. then the broad church that makes up the SNP would probably move to other parties....

      There's much more to the indy campaign than the SNP.. there's the green, Scottish Labour for Independence, Scottish Trade Unionists for Independence, The Radical Independence Campaign.. and a whole lot more.....

      It's interesting to note that unionists try to make this about personality rather than the truth... which is it's about independence NOT Salmond or the SNP....

      1. Pax681

        Re: I cant wait

        BTW the same counts for Orkney as well and were they hell .. Orkney for Example was gifted to The Sinclairs of Rosslyn and they became the "Jarls" of Orkney, the Shetlands and Orkney were NOT allies of England.. you are purely making shit up.

        As i said, Orkneys.. Scottish... gifted to the Sinclair...

        And the Shetlands were fundamentally "pawned" to Scotland as part of the dowry for his daughter Margaret to King James III in 1468

        you don't half talk some crap pal.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: I cant wait

          What's up Pax681, don't like history?

          Orkney and Shetland were allied to the British Crown before Independence, and there's a growing appetite to consider their options should you all voter "Yes" in that referendum.

          http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/9794316/Alex-Salmond-warning-over-Shetland-oil-after-independence.html

          You'll love this one.

          http://scottishunionist.blogspot.co.uk/2008/09/independence-for-shetland.html

          What little good ever came Shetland's way from goverments has always come from London, Edinburgh never did us one iota of good, and I've seen nothing from this current incarnation of Scots rulers that anything has changed since 1468.

          1. Pax681

            Re: I cant wait

            ok.. let's say they DO for some reason, decide to stay with the union.. let's say they do... ok?

            they would both have "Enclave" status and only 12 miles of territorial waters which would be within the Scottish waters which are 200 miles from the 12 mile limit.

            and you know what?

            within those 12 miles... no oil and no gas.....

            so it's just another BS scarey story that seems to make the unionist doom and gloom merchants feel good about themselves as they try to scare the vote into a "NO".

            sorry but THIS was precisely covered in the European Journal of international law.

            So i am afraid you'll just have to suck that one up :)

            READ IT AND WEEP

            http://www.ejil.org/pdfs/12/1/505.pdf

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: I cant wait

              @Pax681

              so it's just another BS scarey story that seems to make the unionist doom and gloom merchants feel good about themselves as they try to scare the vote into a "NO".

              Many of us want you to vote "Yes", so there's no attempts being made to scare anyone into voting "No".

              See if you leave it will increase employment opportunities available to English people, as all those "UK" (of course it won't be called "UK" after you've gone) come back south again.

              There goes another nationalist pet theory, sorry to dissappoint you old chap.

              1. Pax681

                Re: I cant wait

                as they say in Scotland..... you talk pish...

                there has always been the "too wee, too poor, too stupid" coming from the no camp.

                and they are ALWAYS trying to spread FUD... it's their stock and trade. The FUD is an attempt to scare the "don't knows" into being a no vote.

          2. Pax681

            Re: I cant wait

            BTW I am reading for my Masters in Scottish history at the University of Edinburgh.. so yeah i love history and not made up nonsense from sources like a blog :)

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: I cant wait

        "actually it wouldn't if Shetland went independent it would be legally classed as an "Enclave" and thus only have 12 miles of territorial waters inside Scottish waters which would extend 200 miles"

        Nope. It would have whatever maritime borders London decided suited the UK best.....Just like they already did with the oil / gas fields....

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: I cant wait

          Quite - the Falklands managed a 200 mile zone, so i'm sure Shetland can do something similar - as a future British Crown Dependency...

        2. Pax681

          Re: I cant wait

          sorry .. but you are wrong, which is why you post as AC.... just a troll. international law and maritime law are against you on this :)

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: I cant wait

            Nope - International Law provides a resolution path and guidance. Precedents have already been set by the current arrangement - and similar examples exist elsewhere in the world where "international law" based were not resolved based on a equi-distant principle.... So basically the Scots can take whatever the hell view they like, but without English agreement and desire, it isn't going to happen.

            Although maybe you could use your Army, Navy and Air force to enforce your viewpoint? Oh, wait....

            1. Pax681

              Re: I cant wait

              you'll find that there is precedent :)

              http://abcnews.go.com/ABC_Univision/News/maritime-border-colombia-nicaragua-set-international-court-justice/story?id=17763048#.UcIs6G0gihY

              BTW are you a legal expert? me.. nope.. however i am quite sure the guys at the European journal of International law are... :)

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: I cant wait

                That's an example of why Britain woudl win such a case. The existing agreement (rahter than one forced on the parties) was viewed to stand.

                The process is as follows:

                – Identifying the relevant coasts and baselines;

                – Ascertaining whether there is any pre-existing agreement relating to the delimitation of the maritime areas;

                – Delimiting the territorial sea (where requested) by applying the equidistance-special circumstances rule;

                – Delimiting the continental shelf/EEZ applying the equitable principle-relevant circumstances rule.

                Step 2 is where Scotland won't have a leg to stand on...

              2. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: I cant wait

                Nope - Scotland would loose that one:

                25. The Court must not only look at formal agreements, but also consider whether there is any tacit agreement between the parties. Indeed, in the view of the Court, there is a possibility that State practice (such as oil concession practice in the Cameroon v. Nigeria case, or the regulation of fisheries in the Continental Shelf (Tunisia/Libya Arab Jamahiriya) case) may evidence a tacit agreement or acquiescence to a particular maritime delimitation or delimitation method for the territorial sea, continental shelf and/or EEZ.

                http://chinesejil.oxfordjournals.org/content/9/2/271.full#sec-6

    3. twelvebore
      Happy

      Re: I cant wait

      I visited Shetland a few years ago and was highly amused to see lots of the brown Scottish Tourist Board road signs had had the thistle and the word Scottish spray-painted over. The sort of thing you see in Scotland and Wales on anything with an English slant.

      I certainly got the impression that someone there wanted the Scots to git forked.

  25. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I suspect a "scottish unionist" blog might be somewhat partisan

    http://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/Article.aspx/3201771

    "An opinion poll of residents of the Northern Isles, commissioned by the Press and Journal newspaper, has given the lie to claims by certain supporters of the anti-independence campaign that Shetland and Orkney might seek to remain a part of the UK if Scotland becomes independent.

    The poll, published in the newspaper on Wednesday, finds that 82%, the overwhelming majority, of the islanders wish to remain Scottish.

    Asked "Should Shetland/Orkney be independent countries, separate from Scotland?" only 8% of islanders who participated in the poll said that they were in agreement, with a further 10% saying they did not know."

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: I suspect a "scottish unionist" blog might be somewhat partisan

      "The poll, published in the newspaper on Wednesday, finds that 82%, the overwhelming majority, of the islanders wish to remain Scottish."

      Erm, no. It found that they did not want to be "independent countries, separate from Scotland"

      If they had been asked 'would you want to remain part of the United Kingdom' then the answer would likely have been very different....

  26. JP19
    FAIL

    Devolution

    Scots hated being governed by a pack of wankers in Westminster.

    So did/do the English.

    The Scots had this brilliant idea to at great expense have their own pack of wankers.

    So now Britain has an extra 129 wankers and pissed away £420 million just on building a house for them.

    Paying HP 7 million quid to sack a load of people and hire them somewhere else is one of the great ideas these extra wankers came up with.

    1. Pax681

      Re: Devolution

      Actually you'll find that it was in 1979 that the Scots decided they wanted their own assembly however some anus in Westminster changed the rules in an early day motion to make it so that if people didn't turn out to vote... like the recently dead for example... that those non votes were ruled to be np votes.

      The EU then pressured the Westminster govt about self determination and "regional assemblies" and the Blair govt presented it like it was all their idea.. which it wasn't.

      If you want to blame anyone about the cost of the building... which the people of /Scotland were also very pissed off about ... then how about you blame the labour run procurement procedures at the time whereby all the contracts went to their pals in construction.

      And ask Labour why they never put penalty clauses in it for lateness or a penalty for moving the goal posts on costs..... Also have a look into what board members have heavy labour connections via membership or being donors.. that'll give you the answer :)

  27. Marko71
    WTF?

    Giant corporation in decision ot cut costs shocker!!

    Part of the move is cost but not just due to grants, HP owns the building at Erskine (its been there 25 years), there is no rent to pay on it thus it's a money saver. This has been ongoing for 2 years now since they moved out of Thames Valley Park to save a fortune of rent in the London area.

    Erskine is one of HP's key global centres, as the company needs to save money due to a terrible previous year obviously it's going to move work to more economical regions & especially to a huge campus it already owns. If the campus were in Newcastle it would all have been moved there, but it's not its near Glasgow so thats where some of the jobs are going.

    The Anti Scottish rubbish on this thread is vile and nonsensical, this has nothing to do with the Scottish people or a measely grant which pales compared to the money that is being paid in rent for the ex EDS sites which HP have been moving out of. I thought the people who visit this site were meant to be educated & professional workers, nice to see that both of those traits dont exclude bitter racism & general hatred from being spouted.

    I've worked at the Erskine site for almost 9 years now & it's constantly in a state of flux employment as it houses many GBU's. Just two years ago over 1000 lost their jobs here to the Czech Republic but I dont recall such anti Czech spouting going on then, but maybe thats becasue it didnt happen to an English site?

    Also many of those people who were to be displaced when TVP shut moved here, so Scotland cant be that bad a place to be & I'm sure some of the Sheffield folk will move to Newcastle or Erskine, but please dont let that get in the way of your pitchfork & torch session.

    Let the downvotes, "You would say that you HP lackey" & uneeded swearing begin. ;-)

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Giant corporation in decision ot cut costs shocker!!

      The focus of these comments has indeed errantly been on beano style 'Jocks and Geordies' rubbish. Where it should have been concentrating on shining a light on what a shower of faeces HP, and EDS before them, are.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Giant corporation in decision ot cut costs shocker!!

      nice to see that both of those traits dont exclude bitter racism & general hatred from being spouted.

      40+ years of having to listen to Scots direct bitter racism and general hatred at the English was always going to have an effect, don't you think?

  28. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Where are you Eadon!

    Can you comment here so that the discussion becomes slightly more balanced and rational?

  29. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Hearts / heads

    ASAICS The Scottish Vote is basically on two levels: financial and emotional. The financial aspect seems to be very unclear, but the emotional aspect is VERY clear. I find that Scots often let their hearts rule their heads when it comes to England, as it did when a very intelligent Scottish friend got drunk and advised me that 'ye hav nay culture' because I was English. I reeled off a long list of items of which I considered to be 'English culture', whereupon he ran out of the pub, put his foot through a telephone kiosk and charged down the street yelling 'FOOK THE ANGLISH'

    I think the 'emotionals' will prevail in the Vote, and good luck to them.... finally the English will get some peace, and perhaps an opportunity to govern ourselves.

  30. MagicBoy
    Alert

    Far from the first time this has happened. IBM Global Services relocated the account I was working on from Manchester to Greenock in 2002, to populate a new building. The large chunk of government cash to help them put up a new building was just a co-incidence. 3 years later it was closed...

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