back to article YES, Xbox One DOES need internet, DOES restrict game trading

Microsoft has finally confirmed that Xbox fans' worst fears are at least partially true: Although the new Xbox One gaming console won't need an always-on internet connection, that connection had better be on pretty often or you can forget about gaming. And don't assume you'll be able to sell or trade your old games, either. " …

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  1. Anonymous Coward
    Mushroom

    Microsoft: "We're always listening to our customers"

    Bullscheiße.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Microsoft: "We're always listening to our customers"

      @Entrope, you're jumping the gun a bit there; they'll say it in six months after shipping 15 units, but say it they will.

    2. ~mico
      Big Brother

      Re: Microsoft: "We're always listening to our customers"

      With this always-on device with microphone and internet connection, they actually might. Literally.

      And then report it to NSA.

      1. yossarianuk
        Linux

        Re: Microsoft: "We're always listening to our customers"

        But Microsoft said that our privacy was important... Whilst giving NSA access to their servers.

        Hold on, if Microsoft lied about that why does anyone trust that their products like Windows do not have deliberate backdoors in also ?

        Stallman wasn't paranoid, he was right.

        Linux is the only major OS I can trust.

        1. JDX Gold badge

          Re: Microsoft: "We're always listening to our customers"

          I wonder... if the used-game market is squashed will new-game prices reduce at all? I am not holding out any hope, but in theory it could do.

    3. Haku

      Re: Microsoft: "We're always listening to our customers"

      Given the need for being onllne and the restriction on reselling your old games I'd say they're listening more to the developers who have been bitching like little girls over the 2nd hand games stores, than they have to the people who are actually buying the games at full price in the first place.

      1. TechnicalBen Silver badge
        Facepalm

        Re: Haku

        Replace "developers" with "publishers". I'm not sure Johnny Blogs making a game really cares who/how it's distributed and used as long as he gets paid. See Indi games as an example, with pay what you want and open betas.

        1. Haku

          @TechnicalBen

          I've seen some posts on slashdot from people claiming to be games developers and they're really pissed that they're not getting a cut of the sale of 2nd hand games, they somehow think they're more special than any other industry that generates products for the general public, who can then sell on those products if they feel they no longer want them (like cars etc.) without having to pay the original manufacturer a cut of that sale.

      2. Mephistro Silver badge
        Flame

        Re: Microsoft: "We're always listening to our customers"(@ Haku)

        Funny, they Game Publishers must think that people that sells their old videogames spend the money on booze and sluts.

        No, Sirs! Most of the money obtained through this method is used to purchase new games. It also help to keep games addiction at a high level, even if the seller or the buyer are temporarily short on cash.

        Now, the degree to which these companies are willing to harm/insult/mug their customers in exchange for a very small -probably under 1%- rise in profits is just mindboggling, and mindbogglingly stupid, to boot.

        But it fits well with MS's policy, which in the last years gave us marvels like Windows Millennium, Windows Vista and Windows 8.0, all of them with the same design philosophy: 'We don't give a crap about the users'.

        It's about time that MS stockholders begin dragging Ballmer and his toadies through the courtrooms. Their level of incompetence is fscking unbelievable.

    4. Chairo
      Big Brother

      Re: Microsoft: "We're always listening to our customers"

      No, no, you got it wrong, it's not "customers", it's "sheep". They need a thorough shaving, lest they overheat in summer!

      And that's also why they need to keep you online on a console that has a camera and microphone and sits in your living room - to protect you.

    5. This post has been deleted by its author

    6. LarsG
      Meh

      Sadly

      There will be fools who will want to buy it, all three of them.

      1. TheVogon Silver badge
        Mushroom

        Re: Sadly

        You know Xbox One already broke Pre-Order records, right?

        1. LarsG
          Meh

          Re: Sadly @TheVogon

          'You know Xbox One already broke Pre-Order records, right?'

          Yes but they didn't know the terms and conditions until today!

          1. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge
            Paris Hilton

            Xbox one, Xbox gone.

            You know Xbox One already broke Pre-Order records, right?

            Like with those 100 million Windows 8 licenses "SOLD?"

            1. Lazslo Anton Zapotec

              Re: Xbox one, Xbox gone.

              Its the new New Math - Neo-Math. Gates and company are pushing it into the curriculum in their charter schools in the USA. Excel makes it all understandable. Just ask Reinhard and Rogoff.

              BTW: Does anyone know what the record is for cancelled pre-orders?

              1. TheVogon Silver badge
                Mushroom

                Re: Xbox one, Xbox gone.

                I assume you mean "Maths" and "Neo-Maths" .

                It is short for MathematicS

        2. Blaster

          Re: Sadly

          Lets see how many go straight onto ebay once the 'sheep' realize they've bought the wrong console!

          1. Tom 260

            Re: Sadly

            Many of those preorders were probably destined for ebay anyway, at 1.5x-2x the original price once they announce that launch day stock will inevitably be limited.

        3. hplasm Silver badge
          Meh

          Re: Xbox One already broke Pre-Order records...

          True. Never has so much apathy been generated by a console launch.

        4. Anonymous Coward
          WTF?

          Re: Sadly

          I wouldn't trust pre order records especially as that news comes from blockbuster UK who I really thought were closing down, not the best people to pre order from.

          The WiiU had record breaking online pre orders reported by people offering pre orders but some of them were counting website hits as interest in pre ordering, so when sales figures came out either everyone cancelled or it was mainly bollocks to begin with.

        5. Anonymous Coward
          FAIL

          Re: Sadly

          AT BLOCKBUSTER in the UK.... Which no longer trades.....

          You consider this a sign of the wider world's interest??? Really....??????

          http://www.mcvuk.com/news/read/xbox-one-breaks-pre-order-records-at-blockbuster/0116237

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Big Brother

        Re: Sadly

        If only it were going to be three. But the dickheads will flock to buy them, bend over, take it like the punks that they are and thus ensure this disgraceful bullshit becomes the norm.

      3. Lazslo Anton Zapotec

        Re: Sadly

        Quite true. But look on the bright side. Less load on the Microsoft authentication servers!

        Even with only three accounts, I suspect Microsoft, or their partners, will find a way to render the system inoperative within three months.

    7. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      In the news

      The US government has been secretly compiling and collecting data from computers and mobile phones without the knowledge of the user. Just to make a point, they've been doing this to everyone, the world and his dog.

      All this to keep us safe they say, preventing terrorist attacks, but they can't tell us about it.

      Do you think Microsoft is in on this?

      1. Paul Anderson
        Meh

        Re: In the news

        No.

      2. Vic Sub
        Black Helicopters

        Re: In the news

        "Do you think Microsoft is in on this?"

        From: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/06/07/prism_plan_for_nsa_surveillance_of_internet_companies/

        "Nine companies are currently part of PRISM. Microsoft was the first firm to sign up on Sept 11, 2007"

        ".....the PRISM project, a system described as being the largest single source of information for NSA analytic reports. PRISM apparently gives the NSA access to email, chat logs, any stored data, VoIP traffic, files transfers, social networking data, and the ominously named "Special Projects"

        Could this be one of those "Special Projects?

        NSA: "Yeah, we read about this in our trade publication "1984". A Television device but where the state can watch its "citizens" at all hours..... Why do you think the Kinect can swivel around? Our trade publication pointed out a drawback where the subject was able to find a corner of his living room to hide in. This eliminates that oversight"

      3. tripwire401
        Thumb Up

        Re: In the news

        My thumbs up just got me in trouble.

    8. hplasm Silver badge
      Thumb Up

      Re: Microsoft: "We're always listening to our customers"

      "- it's a sort of indistinct muttering, an annoying sort of buzz; we tend to try and ignore it."

    9. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Concessions

      So they give us a few concessions, bit like trying to bribe a child with a lolly, the difference is we are adults...

      They will listen eventually, look at the Start button coming soon.

      Well, not quite, they won't listen to us, until they find their profits tumbling then get ready for another statement,

      'Microsoft listens to its customers so we will.....'

    10. Piro

      Re: Microsoft: "We're always listening to our customers"

      Not possible to agree more. Not a single customer has said "please require a call home every 24 hours" or "please charge me a fee for a used game". Not one.

      Therefore, by very definition, they are not listening to their customers. Or they are, but they ignoring them so much to the point of that statement being meaningless.

      1. Darren Barratt
        Unhappy

        Re: Microsoft: "We're always listening to our customers"

        Anctually, I think you'll find the games companies are microsofts customers, and they have definitly asked for the used game tax.

      2. David Evans

        @Piro

        You're making the usual mistake of assuming "customers" means the people who go out and buy boxes, rather than the publishers and developers MS receive licence fees from.

        This type of locked down "games ecosystem" has been predicted for at least a decade; its only now that the bandwidth is there to support it. And all you people saying "I'll buy a PS4 instead"; why do you think Sony, the acknowledged masters of botched DRM and consumer-unfriendly lockdowns, will be any different? Maybe at launch they'll sucker you in, but it won't last. This is the future.

        1. Lazslo Anton Zapotec

          Re: @Piro

          "This is the future."

          Not necessarily. Both Sony and Microsoft have invested considerable money into the two new consoles and neither can afford heavy losses if their product does not sell well.

          If the PS4 does not contain similar restrictions and sells moderately well at launch, while the XBone stumbles out the gate, then I think it is possible that Mr. Ballmer will sacrifice a few scapegoats (Inevitable anyways actually) and change their policy to something rather less restrictive.

          If both consoles have these restrictions, I suspect their sales will falter soon after launch, and one company or the other will have to change their policies.

          Time will tell and, as always, it largely depends on people's willingness to hand over the money. Assuming we have any money to hand over going forward.

          1. Matt Bridge-Wilkinson

            Re: @Piro

            It will contain similar restrictions http://techreport.com/news/24141/sony-patent-describes-rfid-infused-drm

          2. TheVogon Silver badge
            Mushroom

            Re: @Piro

            Microsoft could afford heavy losses. It is Sony that would be in trouble....

        2. Matt Bridge-Wilkinson
          Stop

          Re: @Piro

          In fact I am pretty sure I read about Sony patenting an ability to incorporate a chip into a disc for ID and DRM purposes. Why else would they want to ID a disc if not to prevent you sharing or selling it second hand?

          Quick google brings up lots of threads, so everyone saying they will just buy a PS4 will face the exact same problem there too.

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Microsoft: "We're always listening to our customers"

        Customer: "I don't want to have to have an Internet connection..."

        Microsoft (writing): "have... to... have... Internet...connection."

        Customer: "I don't want anything to prevent me from buying or selling used games..."

        Microsoft (writing): "prevent... buying... or... selling... used... games."

        Customer: "I don't want my console spying on me..."

        Microsoft (writing): "console... spying... on... me..."

        Microsoft (looking up at Customer): "Yes, go on, we're listening."

      4. Tomato42 Silver badge

        Re: Microsoft: "We're always listening to our customers"

        or they really are listening to their customers, they have "just" mistaken developers for customers

      5. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Microsoft: "We're always listening to our customers"

        If the games studios are the customers, which I suspect they are in MS's eyes then they have been listening to them .EA etc want to lock you into their systems permanently, no off line gaming... no trying to recover any money when you find the game you spend $50 on turns out to be a turd.....

      6. TheVogon Silver badge
        Mushroom

        Re: Microsoft: "We're always listening to our customers"

        Not a single customer has said "please require a call home every 24 hours" or "please charge me a fee for a used game". Not one.

        But they probably have said - "Let me use my games anywhere without the disk", and "let me lend lots of my friends my games without giving them the disk"

        Microsoft have specifically stated that they won't charge for transferring used games...

    11. Greybeaver
      Holmes

      Re: Microsoft: "We're always listening to our customers"

      ¡Los hombres de Redmond hasta la mierda, siempre! http://www.theregister.co.uk/Design/graphics/icons/comment/holmes_32.png

      1. JDX Gold badge

        Re: Microsoft: "We're always listening to our customers"

        Stupid to predict One won't sell. XBox is an established big player with only one competitor.

        Remember, most people plug their console into their router anyway. I predict the used-games thing will be a minor annoyance, not a deal-breaker. Speaking generally of course, of course there will be loads of people who are incensed.

        However when you also factor in that serious used-game buyers who would not buy One based on this issue, are not buying many new games, and that games rather than consoles are where the money is made, it could be even less significant. Perhaps MS lose 20% of their customers, but new games sales fall only 5%, as an example.

        Personally - I don't buy used games, I just wait for the cheap Platinum editions to come out.

        1. Paul Shirley

          Re: Microsoft: "We're always listening to our customers"

          Someone has to trade in every used game before it can be resold and many of those users factor that into the price of new games. By raising doubt about resale Microsoft are discouraging a large group of new game purchasers.

          Unless this translates to much cheaper new sales there's no upside to this for anyone. Since figures of £35 have been suggested for minimum 2nd user prices that seems unlikely.

          Sony already won this round by having a more game focussed and powerful console, if they react appropriately to the public response Microsoft are getting they could annihilate xbone.

          1. The_Regulator

            Re: Microsoft: "We're always listening to our customers"

            Do we really know anything about the PS4 though? Details seem to be extremely scarce. The reason the Xbox360 won the last round was because it was first to market.

            I have also heard rumours that Sony was going to do something similar to this with their used games policy so this could just be how it goes!!

            Personally this does not affect me in the least, I only play a handful of games, my internet connection is always turned on to my ps3 currently and thats about all she wrote. I am going to reserve judgment until we have all the facts in front of us.

        2. monkeyfish

          Re: Microsoft: "We're always listening to our customers"

          But do you SELL your used games? What of the people who buy new games knowing they can get about half the money back when they've finished with it. Those used games have to come from somewhere... Perhaps the developers should concentrate on making games that you actually want to keep to play again some day, you know, ones with re-play value.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Microsoft: "We're always listening to our customers"

            The problem is not so much the playability and life, but the initial cost. People have to trade in to reduce the cost of gaming. £40-50 is a lot compared to other media types and while a music album can last your lifetime in terms of enjoyment a game gets boring.

            Games cost a lot because they have transformed from something people used to play for a couple of hours to something that they live and breathe. So to make games that are immersive and with so much depth takes a very long time and a lot of work, hence expensive.

            1. Juillen 1

              Re: Microsoft: "We're always listening to our customers"

              Tell that to Nethack/Angband. I _still_ play those after more than 20 years. They didn't cost much at all..

              Actually, there are a shed load of older games that I still pull out and have a merry wander around because they were just so fun (even if quite simple).. And the running theme was that they all had good gameplay, even if the graphics were like trying to look at art through the medium of paintball gun.

            2. Tomato42 Silver badge
              Thumb Down

              @AC Friday 7th June 2013 10:32 GMT

              "Games cost a lot because they have transformed from something people used to play for a couple of hours to something that they live and breathe. So to make games that are immersive and with so much depth takes a very long time and a lot of work, hence expensive."

              I've spent literally hundreds of hours playing games like Sid Meyer's Alpha Centauri or Dwarf Fortress. Even the original Half Life was a 10+ hour game. Current AAA FPS titles rarely have 6 hours of single player gameplay. If being lead between two walls 4 meters apart can be considered gameplay...

            3. h4rm0ny

              Re: Microsoft: "We're always listening to our customers"

              "£40-50 is a lot compared to other media types and while a music album can last your lifetime in terms of enjoyment a game gets boring"

              I get bored of music too. Let's compare it to films. A film might last around two hours. A Blu-ray of it will cost, let's say £15 (we are comparing new and big name films if you're pitching £40-50 for games). So a film is £7.50 per hour. Do these £40-50 games come in under seven hours of total play? Because if not, they are a good buy compared to film media. Note that I was especially generous in comparing them to purchased discs which multiple people can watch (just like multiple people can play a game) rather than to cinema tickets which are per person (rather than per household like the Xbox games) and which would *really* make games look cheap.

              Some here are ignoring the flip side of the criticism that if games companies are against trade-in because it hits how much revenue they get from games, then limiting trade-in should result in cheaper games, unless there is price-fixing going on in which case you have a different problem.

              Also, has anyone compared the financial impact of trade-in games with the impact of piracy? It seems to me that the latter is quite probably a far greater cause of this DRM than trade-in.

              1. MJI Silver badge

                Re: Game value

                Decent campaign you want to play again.

                Make us want to play it again.

                Make any multiplayers addictive and FUN

                So far longest SP I have is over 120 hours for £20

                MP over 800 hours for £38 + all DLC + new controller

                Even a fun game may get 2 SPs and my sons may have a go.

          2. shawnfromnh
            Thumb Up

            Re: Microsoft: "We're always listening to our customers"

            Absolutely right. I just found my old copy of the original Diablo the other day and though I played the crap out of that game long ago I installed it and it's almost fresh again. I also don't need an internet connection or to register it online since I own it and installing a game and playing it less than 2 minutes without some stupid please register popup made me realize how good getting a new game used to be and why I rarely buy games now.

        3. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Microsoft: "We're always listening to our customers"

          Establish big player that ended both their gaming generations firmly in last place.

          yes consumers have spoken. The Xbox userbase is the smalled of all the consoles, as 50% of it's console purchases are replacements...

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Microsoft: "We're always listening to our customers"

            "The Xbox userbase is the smalled of all the consoles"

            So why do Xbox releases almost always outsell PS3 ones?

        4. Paul Anderson
          Meh

          Re: Microsoft: "We're always listening to our customers"

          Nice to hear an intelligently expressed view JDX.

          Personally I think that sale of new games is affected by availability of trade-in options. I usually buy 2nd hand, but sometimes new if it's a game that I want. The thing is, I wouldn't have bought some of those games new if I knew that I wouldn't be able to claw some of my cash back by selling on. So ultimately how much does the publisher benefit from stopping me selling my games ?

          XBox / PS market share is still a big factor. If PS4 doesn't allow resale blocking it will likely gain some market share from XBox One as 2nd hand gamers switch. If MS stick to their guns but perceive this threat too they will likely pressure publishers to allow resale as, after all, MS still have to licence the games, right ?

          Some good news here is that EA actually stopped their 'online code' requirement for multiplayer in games bought 2nd hand, so maybe they will allow resale and others too.

        5. Steve Brooks

          Re: Microsoft: "We're always listening to our customers"

          Ah yes more fool you then, without the cheap secondhand game market there won't be platinum games editions, who did you think they were competing against? They sell the game for $109.95 until enough people have got tired of playing them and traded them in that the market for new copies tanks, then they release platinum editions at the same price of second hand games to keep the money rolling to them instead of the second hand game shops.

          If they can kill the second hand game market they will never need to release cheap platinum edition copies to compete, they will just sell the games at $109.95 until the market is saturated and sales stop, then release the next piece of mindless entertainement at $109.95 etc etc. Gamers will either have to pay the $109.95 or simply never play the game.

        6. h3

          Re: Microsoft: "We're always listening to our customers"

          I don't buy used games either.

          The platinum series and equivalents don't seem to be properly stocked at retail.

          These consoles are not going to be sold at a loss. The stuff in them is not that expensive at all.

          It would be interesting if MS released this at £150 though that would start to bleed Sony.

          Cannot imagine it costs much more than that to make.

    12. Matthew 25

      Re: Microsoft: "We're always listening to our customers"

      "We're always listening to our customers"... And if we don't here from them we cut them off

      1. Chika
        Trollface

        Re: Microsoft: "We're always listening to our customers"

        "We're always listening to our customers"

        Yes, we are. We like a good laugh!

        1. Robert E A Harvey

          Re: Microsoft: "We're always listening to our customers"

          To be fair, it must be monotomous, when 80% of what you here is someone saying "jesus christ on a bike, what is it doing now?

    13. Green Nigel
      Big Brother

      Re: Microsoft: "We're always listening to our customers"

      Listen, extend, embrace, extinguish!

      XBox One or 101?

    14. Anonymous Coward
      FAIL

      Re: Microsoft: "We're always listening to our customers"

      Where is #Anonymous when you need them....

      Playing on their Xboxes ironically....

    15. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Microsoft: "We're always listening to our customers"

      Xbox One is basically catching up with PS3's Blu-Ray and TV features, with added DRM sauce.

      Nothing to see here.

      1. TheVogon Silver badge
        Mushroom

        Re: Microsoft: "We're always listening to our customers"

        Yes - dont forget we can thank Sony for Cinavia - and for installing anti-copy root kits on 70 million PCs...

    16. Triggerfish

      Re: Microsoft: "We're always listening to our customers"

      Listening is different from caring about what they say.

    17. TheOtherHobbes
      Big Brother

      Re: Microsoft: "We're always listening to our customers"

      And watching them with the webcam too.

    18. intrigid

      Re: Microsoft: "We're always listening to our customers"

      “Listen, smile, agree, and then do whatever the fuck you were gonna do anyway.” – Robert Downey Jr.

  2. Sorry that handle is already taken. Silver badge

    Welp

    Guess I'll just stick with my Atari VGS/2600 for another cycle.

    1. Steven Roper
      Thumb Up

      Re: Welp

      Those old 8-bit games are a fuck sight more fun to play than the 3D eye-candy shite that passes for video games these days anyway!

      Case in point: I was playing Bubble Bobble on an Amiga emulator with my mate a few weeks ago, and I'd forgotten how much fun it was. There's something "delicious" about all those 16-colour cartoon candies that modern realistic games can't match. The gameplay is focused on fun rather than immersion, and I didn't realise how much I'd missed that kind of gameplay until we sat down and whiled away a few evenings with it!

      1. Muscleguy Silver badge
        Thumb Up

        Re: Welp

        My wife has found an emulator for old style text adventures and installed it on her newish Windoze 8 laptop. Not what Microsoft had in mind for such machines and systems, not at all.

      2. wowfood

        Re: Welp

        I wrote a report at uni on the quality of graphcis vs gameplay. The general thesis of it was along the following lines.

        Year 0, 8 bit games had extremely limited graphics and sound capabilities, the only way to sell a game was to focus almost entirely on the gameplay aspect. Some of the best of this genre were the text based games as they had no graphical foucs.

        Year 1. Poor quality graphics and audio focus is still on gmeplay over graphics.

        *fast forward*

        Modern games (PS generation) graphics are now a key score on reviews matching gameplay. The developers started to focus on graphics more, but there was still a rather low ceiling on what could be done, so this was probably a fairly golden transition phase. Good graphics and a focus on gameplay.

        PS2 generation, the graphical roof was raised and gameplay was focused on less and less, graphics continued to get more and more focus in reviews.

        PS3 generation, pretty much no ceiling anymore, and a flood of FPS clones since the gameplay already exists without any additional effort.

        There are of course games out there which have a focus on graphics and gameplay. But more often than not the gameplay is tacked on to make use of graphics and physics features, rather than graphics and physics features being designed to make the gameplay stand out.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Welp

          Why have one or the other. The Uncharted series of games have them all. Amazing graphics, great gameplay (online and offline), and a hollywood blockbuster script with top notch dialog.

          No games come close to the production values on these.

          1. MJI Silver badge

            Re: Welp AC19:05

            Actually they now have been exceeded - by Naughty Dog

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        @Steven Roper

        "There's something "delicious" about all those 16-colour cartoon candies"

        I agree, at 16 everything is delicious!

        I'll get my coat..

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: @Steven Roper

          I'd get it quick if I were you, the police are already on their way.

      4. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Welp

        A mere 16 colours? Sure you weren't playing an Atari ST?

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Welp

      My younger brother (by 33 years) laughed at me for bring the original pacman over to play. He soon found out it wasn't as easy as he thought. Would love to load up donkey kong, space invaders and defender for him. Nothing better than showing him how badly he is at a game after he pulls the poor-winner bit with the slightly younger sister with street fighter. At least she'll light saber his character if he jerks with her on the lego star wars games.

      I really wish a lot of the newer games would either have simpler rules or better stories to justify all the game playing to learn every nuance.

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Another great micro$oft design decision

    If Sony aren't stupid, they have this in the bag.

    Problem is, the track record of Sony suggests .....

    1. SteveCarr
      Terminator

      Re: Another great micro$oft design decision

      Given Sony's record on DRM, don't hold your breath.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Another great micro$oft design decision

        Want to expand on this? I don't recall any anti consumer actions by Sony. They just make a great console with great games. My PS3 has been my best tech purchase ever. I don't care how much Microsoft shot themselves on the foot. PS4 is a day one purchase for me because every other PlayStation has delivered the goods ( despite Microsoft's attempts too convince people otherwise).

        What's really funny is Microsoft fanboys who gave Microsoft a foot in the door must now be feeling rather silly that they are taking advantage of that.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Thumb Down

          Re: Another great micro$oft design decision

          " I don't recall any anti consumer actions by Sony."

          You mean other than introducing a rootkit to 5.7 million customers PCs without their consent or knowledge?

          You mean other than ripping off the copyright and licence of someone else's software in order to create the rootkit that they tried to justify as copyright protection when they installed it on those customers PCs without their consent or knowledge?

          You mean other than lying to their customers through their teeth at every possible turn, and inventing new sets of lies when they were caught?

          You mean other than letting hackers run riot over the PSN and then taking a week to bother telling 77 million customers that their personal data had been compromised, possibly including their credit card details?

          You mean other than criminal negligence with regard to the hack and their complete and utter failure to maintain something vaguely resembling what is expected of PCI-DSS compliant merchants with regard to network security (unpatched servers, questionable firewalling decisions)?

          You mean other than the music division bribing DJs to give their label artists more airplay?

          You mean other than INVENTING a film critic to give their films good reviews?

          No I don't recall any anti-consumer actions by Sony either.

          1. Captain Obvious
            Unhappy

            Re: Another great micro$oft design decision

            Missed one. Sony no longer permitting Linux to run on the PS/3 :(

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Another great micro$oft design decision

            Missed another - Sony were responsible for Cinavia infections of Blu Ray players too...

    2. Charles 9 Silver badge

      Re: Another great micro$oft design decision

      Given a recent patent application (for discs with NFC chippery built in), I would say Sony will go one better and come up with a "use once only" disc that doesn't even require an Internet connection. Even if you have no Internet at all, once you use the disc, the NFC chip on the disc (which will likely contain a crypto key or the like) will prevent it being used anymore.

    3. Daniel B.
      Happy

      But they won't do the MS thing.

      They pretty much axed the FUD on the "we'll tie in PS4 disks to one console" during the PS4 unveiling. Similar rumors were put out for PS2 and PS3, and both times they were disproven as well. While they did act as true asshats with the whole OtherOS issue, they haven't gone on full evil as their stupid music arm (the rootkit fiasco) or as MS is now doing with the XboxOne.

      And with the WiiU also lacking this stupidity, they even have competition on the "we let you play second hand games" camp.

  4. solidsoup
    Coat

    Thank you, Microsoft, for making this an easy choice. Now I want to see what Sony offers. If PS4 can play used games offline, then that's my next console. If not, I'm done with console gaming.

    * mine's with Eadon's watch in the pocket - even a broken watch is right twice a day

    1. Dazed and Confused
      Joke

      Re: Eadon's watch

      > even a broken watch is right twice a day

      I'm sure Eadon has a watch which reports seconds since epoch, so can only be right once.

    2. Tartanyak
      Unhappy

      You've said exactly what was in my brain there. I suspect I'll be carrying on with my PC rather than a new console any time soon.

    3. VinceH Silver badge

      Optional

      "Thank you, Microsoft, for making this an easy choice. Now I want to see what Sony offers. If PS4 can play used games offline, then that's my next console."

      Nah - with what I've read about the options for playing older games on the PS4, I think I'll stick with my PS3.

      Even when the supply of new games runs dry, there will still be plenty of old ones available second hand - and, TBH, although I used to play quite a lot, these days I switch on infrequently enough that my existing collection of games (most of which I haven't even started playing) will probably last for the rest of my life anyway, so even the second hand market is largely irrelevant.

      So, it looks as though both Microsoft and Sony have helped save me some money. Nice one, guys.

    4. Mad Hacker
      Mushroom

      Amen

      I've been a hardcore console gamer since the Atari 2600. Looks like once the next gen consoles ship I will no longer be a console gamer.

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Happy

    Surreal and comical.

    The Xbox One seems so horrible that it's extremely funny that it actually exists! It's a practical joke on consumers of such a grand scale! Can people wish hardware into Phantomware?

    1. A J

      Re: Surreal and comical.

      Indeed, and MS have taken their patented concept of f***ing their own customers to new and stratospheric heights!

  6. ACx

    And is in all likely hood connected straight to the NSA, in case your gaming scores make you a terrorist.....

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Happy

      Don't be silly. It's your in-game communications they'll be after.

    2. JDX Gold badge

      Seriously, how can you see to type with so much tinfoil wrapped around your head?

      1. Greg J Preece

        How are you white-knighting for this console so hard that you completely failed to register an obvious joke?

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Happy

          white-knighting... LOL.

  7. henrydddd

    From the sounds of it, Microsoft's Xbox isn't the product that they are selling, their customers are.

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Not only deny it Internet access

    I'd go as far as to deny it electricity access.

    1. Adam 1 Silver badge

      Re: Not only deny it Internet access

      I'd go as far as denying it shelf space.

  9. MIc

    Calm down...

    I don't think all of the hysteria is warranted

    http://wmpoweruser.com/microsoft-no-restrictions-on-used-games-with-xbox-one/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+WmPowerUser+%28WMPowerUser%29

    1. Charles 9 Silver badge

      Re: Calm down...

      Actually, I think it's QUITE warranted.

      1. The control is being left to the publishers, and given the track records of the big guys like EA and UbiSoft, how do you think this will go?

      2. The model already exists with Valve and Steam.

      3. Given a recent patent application, I think Sony are actually going to go one worse than Microsoft on this and employ a system that can work even without Internet.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Calm down...

        "2. The model already exists with Valve and Steam."

        Steam has always had an "offline mode" for this reason. As someone who used to "admin" LAN parties from random borrowed buildings with no net, there was always a few who forgot to put steam into offline mode before coming and had to suffer the wrath of doing it over a GPRS connection.

        1. Scrumble

          Re: Calm down...

          I don't know what Valve claim about Steams offline mode, but from personal experience it isn't unlimited. You still have to go online every now and again.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Calm down...

            I've gone a couple of months without needing to go online, I tend to use offline mode on the laptop and just leave it offline for months at a time (the laptop doesn't get heavy use).

            But yeah at points it moans, I assume the cache of your details expires, but as long as it gets me past that "1 month to get a new internet connection" period when I move house or a couple of weeks in the cheapest hotel my company could find to stuff me in then there is little problem.

            24 hours isn't long enough, it needs to be about a month.

            Consoles really came into their own in the moving scenario as after you've shifted all your boxes about and unpacked a plate, kettle, some cutlery and, the coffee all you needed to do was plug in the console and the tv and you could play games amongst your cardboard empire. Little point in unpacking the PC as you can't browse the internets for another few weeks.

            Though I'm one to talk, I've only got a PS2, well used to have, now I've just got a ps2 emulator and all my games come from steam and gog all the issues the new consoles will face were played out in the pc market years ago and pc gaming got a hell of a lot cheaper after it all ended. Unless you buy release day ports of console games in which case you're a mug.

    2. Michael Habel Silver badge
      FAIL

      Re: Calm down...

      Love how your link offers precious little in way of refuting any actual argument(s), and actually disallows any further discussion(s), on these/those matter(s). But, hay if you'll be a good enough shrill perhaps MicroSoft will give you a nice fresh Copy of Windows 8, a whole Year of Office365 and an XBONE for free....

  10. RAMChYLD
    Boffin

    Eighth generation

    They're all just glorified PCs now. X86 architecture, bog standard GPU and RAM...

    I just cannot fathom how they're better than PCs if they're just technically PCs.

    I'll skip on this and the PS4, thanks.

    1. This post has been deleted by a moderator

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Eighth generation

      > I just cannot fathom how they're better than PCs if they're just technically PCs

      They never were "better than PCs", and not really designed to be. Consoles always have been relatively low spec machines (roughly equivalent to a mid-level gaming PC when they are introduced with obvious ranking-rot over 5 year lifespan). The £250 price point for the base version should have given away the fact that it isn't exactly a high spec machine ...

      Their main advantage is a fixed hardware spec so the game developers know exactly what they are targeting, and therefore what they are optimizing for. And because of "fixed spec" it usually "just works" for the technically inept (or kids) ...

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Eighth generation

        Can you get gddr5 ram for PCs yet? As I'm pretty sure I saw the ps4 was specced with 8gb of gddr5, but yeah, they are just pcs though, but on release they're not bad value. 8 cores, 8gb of memory, radeon 7790 (the two invariably have different boards and classes of bits an pieces but that's the base of the systems) so not to shabby for £400

        1. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge
          Devil

          Re: Eighth generation

          Sure you can. Not on the mainboard, but on the graphics engine:

          EVGA GeForce GTX 780 SuperClocked ACX, EUR 680.

          > 8gb of gddr5

          Not for the CPU.

          1. Blank Reg

            Re: Eighth generation

            That's right, not for the CPU and that's the key. The unified memory architecture will nearly eliminate copying data back and forth between CPU and GPU. Also a GPU with that amount of RAM would cost almost as much as a PS4+XB1.

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    without complete offline....

    Why do i need a box anymore?

    Why do i need to spend hundreds of dollars on hardware, since if everything can come from "the cloud" how big a step is it going to be to play virtualised games over a net connection.

    An xbox is good but its something i buy out of choice not need and in this case, i probably just wont buy one.

    1. Scrumble

      Re: without complete offline....

      A teeny tiny step. Onlive.com already exists

    2. Yag

      Re: without complete offline....

      Unless you have a RJ45 in your forehead to allow for a direct brain/internet interface, you'll always need some kind of box...

      The main issue for a very dumb box is the required low latency - FPS players knows what I mean - and very high speed connection - sending high resolution/high refresh rate pictures in almost real time is not as simple as a bufferized broadcast TV.

      You'll pay more for such a connection than by buying a high end console every couple of years...

      "The cloud" is an interesting solution to a few problems (mostly linked to scalability), but is not THE answer - everyone knows it's 42. And about the promises made, don't forget that clouds are mostly made of vapor.

  12. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    1) "The main benefit of this is that your games can now follow you wherever you are. You can login with your account on your friend's Xbox and play all of your games there. You can even share your games with up to ten members of your family, and they'll be able to play them wherever they go, too."

    The can accomplish that without the need for your machine to be on (even in a hibernated state) or have a constant Internet connection. Microsoft also had this to say:

    2) "When you install a game for the console, a copy of it is automatically associated with your online account, no matter whether you bought it online through Xbox Live or picked it up on physical disc at a store."

    If the copy is associated with your online account, then you should be able to do everything in paragraph 1 as that data should be cached in the Microsoft servers. So it shouldn't have to contact the actual Xbox at all. Go to a friends house and it sees you have such and such games, you can play them; there is absolutely no reason it needs to access your Xbox. As usual Microsoft just does things the stupid way.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Yeah, but

      I've been able to do that with Steam for years, and they have an offline mode.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Stop

      PS3 Store Games

      Excluding Singstar you can have your account on upto 5 PS3's and download all of the PS3 games onto those consoles. So how is this new?

  13. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    The new consoles are a hard sell

    Steam has an off-line mode that works (I know, I've tried it). The PC is backwards compatible with games like Half Life (released 2004), Doom (released 1993) and Myst (released 1993), and can be upgraded while still maintaining compatibility. Steam regularly has sales that offer discounts of up to 95%. The PC games market has free mods like Black Mesa, Minerva and Cry of Fear. There are also free new levels for games like Portal and Left4Dead 2, as well as additions to games like the Elder Scrolls and Fallout series (e.g. Project Brazil). There is a much greater variety of Indie games and MMOS.

    I already have a PC, and for the price of a new console I can upgrade it with a high end graphics card, which will also speed up some of my non-gaming software.

    I think I'll give the new consoles a miss.

    1. TheVogon Silver badge
      Mushroom

      Re: The new consoles are a hard sell

      The Pirate Bay provides an offline mode too....

    2. Greg J Preece

      Re: The new consoles are a hard sell

      Half Life (released 2004)

      1998, you mean. :-p HL2 was 2004.

  14. Greg J Preece

    The main benefit of this is that your games can now follow you wherever you are.

    Couldn't they do that before? I mean, I would pick up the game disc, and walk off with it, and play it at my friend's house. Or I would log in on his system, download my game, and play there. (Admittedly, we run PS3s.) What am I missing here?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      "Or I would log in on his system, download my game, and play there"

      Let me fix that for you:

      "Or I would log in on his system, wait several hours to download my game, and play there"

      1. Greg J Preece

        "Or I would log in on his system, wait several hours to download my game, and play there"

        Depending on the game, sure, though the Playstation Store servers do tend to fare much better than other services I've used when it comes to download speed.

  15. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I don't mind it

    In exchange for DRM, they give up to 10 householders the ability to play ALL of the household's games simultaneously on their friend's machines.

    You can also loan the game to a friend still.

    More flexible than the physical alternative.

    1. Yag
      Trollface

      Re: I don't mind it

      Read the fine print.

      I'm pretty sure there's a sentence saying "Multi-user and loaning functionality is at game publisher's discretion".

      The use of the weasely "up to" is a giveaway.

  16. Greg J Preece

    So I'm wandering how long we'll be into the next faltering console generation before GabeN turns up to announce the Steam Box's release date.

  17. Eguro
    Unhappy

    10 years from now?

    So what happens to my game collection when the Xbox one 2 comes out?

    Not backwards compatible I'm sure. So all my games are now useless because the servers needed to authenticate my Xbone are gone. I can be like the end of A.I. and play for one last day, before it's gone forever.

    1. Zot

      Re: 10 years from now?

      Gone are the days of selling the gaming system in the paper to an appreciative family somewhere who were looking for something on a budget. You can't tell them the transfer cost as every game publisher will have different prices. Not to mention the admin time dealing with it all, they'll spend all day putting in 32 character registration numbers with the joystick. ; )

  18. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    just a silly thought

    with the kinnect camera always on and the target audience being minors. will ms be prosecuted if a kid uses their xbox nude with possessing child porn?

    didn't end well for the american school that installed spyware on their students laptops without their permission.

    1. MattEvansC3

      Re: just a silly thought

      Its not always on, MS have stated that on their website. It can be switched off completely or put into a low power mode, when in low power mode the Kinect is only listening out for "Xbox On". It also goes through the privacy settings with you and does not transmit any data unless you give it your explicit permission.

      1. Lordbrummie
        Alert

        Re: just a silly thought

        If it's "on" only listening for the "Xbox on" verbal command then it's on all the time, listening to EVERYTHING being said, processing EVERYTHING that is being said, using processing power until the "Xbox on" verbal command is recognised by the console.

        How is this not intrusive?

        Someone with decent network skills and nefarious desires could basically create 1984. With Microsoft's record on security this has got to be a hackers wet dream.

        Maybe I'm getting old but this will mean no console in my home when the existing xbox packs up, which to be fair, shouldn't be too long.

        Added to the simple fact my son cannot afford to buy 6 AAA games a year without selling the ones he has finished with, why is the software industry so blinkered, I sell my car 2nd hand does the manufacturer get a cut? NO.

        I sell anything outside of games, DVD's and music, the original manufacturer gets nothing, why should these guys be any different, I bought it, I own it, I'm not copying it, I'm reselling something I no longer want and guess what, I use that cash to but MORE ORIGINAL games, DVD's and music.

        MSFT is cutting it's own throat, but what do you expect from a business that is led by a guy who said "the iphone will never take off".... yes MSFT really listens to its customers.

        1. Zot

          Re: just a silly thought

          Another silly thought - MS does a TV advert with some shiny toothed loon saying "XBOX ON" really loudly, and everybody's console will blink into action!! It'll be like a terrible Dr Who episode.

        2. TheVogon Silver badge
          Mushroom

          Re: just a silly thought

          "With Microsoft's record on security this has got to be a hackers wet dream."

          Microsoft have a much better record than Sony in this field....

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: just a silly thought

      >didn't end well for the american school that installed spyware on their students laptops without their permission.

      no-one lost their job, no criminal charges were brought and almost all of the legal costs were covered by insurance...pretty good result for the school really.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Will ms be prosecuted if a kid uses their xbox nude with possessing child porn?

      Of course not!

      Thanks to the laws in the UK, and precedents set by kids taking selfies, it would be the child itself that would be prosecuted for the production and distribution.

  19. Captain DaFt
    Facepalm

    It's a pity

    I was actually leaning toward getting an Xbone up until they announced their plans for it.

    As for PS4... well all they've got to show so far is a controller, a fuzzy rectangle, and some video mock-ups of games it might have.

    Wii U? Nope, why would I want a game system tethered to a tablet with lousy battery life? Not to mention, the only reason I have a Wii ws that it played the games I wanted, and the Wii U doesn't. (I know, I know; "Coming soon", but they said that for months with the 3DS, and then.. "Japanese market only."

    So what's left? Steam?

    Conclusion: None of the new systems look appealing, my PC is getting long in the tooth, so the obvious choice is to find a decent desktop running Win 7. Any recommendations? (Eadon need not apply)

    1. Charles 9 Silver badge

      Re: It's a pity

      Roll your own is my recommendation. Gaming requirements have hit a plateau lately, meaning you can get some decent hardware for a modest investment. Though given your PC's age (in comparison, mine's about 4 years old), it'll probably have to be built from scratch if you don't have an empty case lying around. Pick and choose your parts.

      You can go middle-of-the-road (like a Core i5 or something from AMD) without much trouble since most of the grunt work goes to the GPU, and there you have plenty of options (budget $200-300 for something with comfortable performance; choose nVidia or AMD to suit your taste).

      Measure how much you put on your hard drive(s) to determine what's best for you. If you put a lot of stuff in it, you'll probably want to stick with traditional drives at least as a secondary. Getting a solid-state drive for the boot drive does help with performance, but the price premium means you need to choose the device carefully depending on your storage and performance needs as well as you budget.

      Memory generally isn't a big problem these days, especially with 64-bit OS's. Try to get at least 8GB of memory to give yourself some headroom, but check for the ideal clock settings and always buy in matched sets to maximize the performance on your motherboard (check your motherboard's specs for details on ideal arrangements). Getting more may not be needed right away, but as an option it doesn't really hurt on a 64-bit OS.

    2. gregthecanuck
      Meh

      Re: It's a pity

      Wii U - there is a larger rechargable battery coming soon for the tablet. It has been shown in Japan.

      So far to me the Wii U is the better product - no funky XBone DRM. I expect Sony to have similar restrictions now that MS has broken the ice on that front. Also no rental possibility for games? We use RedBox to try out new games and only buy ones we feel are worth it. And some games you can finish in less than a day! Latest Laura Croft title for example. Very bad $ value.

      I suspect the Wii U will get a boost due to:

      - no funky DRM issues

      - supports rentals

      - supports used game market

      - less expensive than XBone

      IMO the graphics on the Wii U are "good enough". As others have mentioned it's all about gameplay. There are some awesome titles on the Wii such as Xenoblade that are as good as anything on Xbox. Next-gen Xenoblade from Wii U likely to be shown at E3 soon.

      1. Greg J Preece

        Re: It's a pity

        IMO the graphics on the Wii U are "good enough". As others have mentioned it's all about gameplay. There are some awesome titles on the Wii such as Xenoblade that are as good as anything on Xbox. Next-gen Xenoblade from Wii U likely to be shown at E3 soon.

        Couldn't give a toss about the graphics, but the U has everything that annoyed me about the Wii: not enough good games, too much shovelware, too many gimmicks. The 'motes were annoying enough because they barely worked, and the tablet can just sod off.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: It's a pity

        A game that would really help Wii U out would be Madden football. Peole could enter their own plays or pick presets on the tablet, that wouldn't show on the main screen.

        1. TheVogon Silver badge
          Mushroom

          Re: It's a pity

          "A game that would really help Wii U out would be Madden football"

          A real Football game like FIFA maybe. Hardly anyone plays Madden - niche market.

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: It's a pity

        I suspect the Wii U will get a boost due to:

        - no funky DRM issues

        - supports rentals

        - supports used game market

        - less expensive than XBone"

        You are forgetting that it is relatively crap and major game publishers have effectviely dumped it. Who wants a last gen console with few games when Next Gen is out....

        And you certainly can rent games on Xbox One. You don't even need a disk to do so!

    3. Tom 260

      Re: It's a pity

      I can see Sony announcing a similar system to the Xbone, there's already been a clue in EA withdrawing from developing for the Wii U, if they're happy (and DRM is EA's wet dream) with the Xbone's system, they'll have to be happy with the PS4's restrictions too.

  20. This post has been deleted by a moderator

    1. Stuart Elliott
      Trollface

      Re: XBox CONSOLE FROM HELL

      Obviously the answer is for the "trollololols", but I'll ask anyway...

      Given your obvious disdain for anything Microsoft, why do you read any of their propaganda and feel the need to denigrate it, when I think everyone is aware of what you're going to think of it anyway ?

      1. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge
        Alien

        Re: XBox CONSOLE FROM HELL

        BECAUSE IT'S EADON!

    2. TheVogon Silver badge
      Mushroom

      Re: XBox CONSOLE FROM HELL

      "Therefore they serve their real customers, - the media companies"

      Versus Sony that is a media company, you mean?

  21. This post has been deleted by its author

    1. Charles 9 Silver badge

      Re: Ever reliable...

      Then explain why Steam is taking off. Why can't Microsoft do things Steam is doing like demos and sample periods? Wouldn't that and online reviews take the place of word of mouth?

      1. Piro

        Re: Ever reliable...

        The console market ≠ PC gaming.

        Console gamers don't generally put up with crap, and they bought a console so they could toss a disk in and play a game. Swap the games with their friends, sell it off when they're done with it.

        The system has always been like that. Simple and easy.

        Steam's advantage is that they have compelling offers that are often ultra-cheap. Also, Valve, simply put, aren't dicks. Yes, it's a form of DRM, but they have been actively trying to provide Steam on multiple OSes (Windows, Linux, OS X) to provide best coverage possible, so you're not locked to a platform.

        There's an offline mode. Just to re-iterate it again - the sales are so incredible that almost none of the downsides matter. You can get legitimate games at prices that make you feel like you stole the game.

        New games are always more expensive on consoles because of the licencing costs of being on the platform.

        Then you have the small matter of the fact that on console - you PAY FOR THE CONSOLE. Steam does not get a cut of your machine. Your machine that you already have and that can be used for every purpose. Not a console which is from one company, for one purpose.

      2. TheVogon Silver badge
        Mushroom

        Re: Ever reliable...

        Microsoft already do offer demos on XBL. The new changes enables even more flexible use of games - e.g per hour rental would be possible...

  22. mIRCat
    Terminator

    I see.

    "Offline gaming is not possible after these prescribed times until you re-establish a connection, but you can still watch live TV and enjoy Blu-ray and DVD movies."

    Doesn't sound like this X-Box will be connecting from my house. Ever.

  23. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    So.....

    A friend is playing games on my XBox1. He likes the games and goes and buys one but I can't lend him any of my older games until he's been my "friend" for more than 30 days.

    Frankly this is as barking mad ad Garth Brooks demanding that he should get royalties on second hand CDs because they don't wear out....

    1. TheVogon Silver badge
      Mushroom

      Re: So.....

      "A friend is playing games on my XBox1. He likes the games and goes and buys one but I can't lend him any of my older games until he's been my "friend" for more than 30 days."

      Wrong - you cant GIVE him the game for 30 days. You can lend him games as soon as he is your friend.

  24. Stephen 2

    Aside from the original playstation

    I've always preferred the xbox over the PS. But with me being in a country where the internet really isn't that stable, there's no way I'm going to buy the xbox one. Plus the whole buying/trading/selling games thing just hits me badly. I don't want to support the route they're trying to take gaming so I think I'll be looking towards the PS instead.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Aside from the original playstation

      A good point on internet-deprived areas but if everything was built to lowest common denominator most of the technology used everyday in 70% of the world would be unavailable, phones, digital TV, its a long list.

  25. ElNumbre
    Meh

    Thoughts from the Casual Gamer...

    I'm an XB360 owner and casual gamer, and watched with interest the XBone launch.

    But I think Microsoft (& partners) are putting off customers like me.

    80% of my game library is 2nd user; frankly, for the once or twice a quarter I fire up the console to play games, I cannot justify spending £40 on a game I don't know that's any good. £10-£20 is a much more reasonable price point for me, but I can't see game makers allowing this resale at a price point much below RRP, if at all.

    I mainly use the XB360 for its DVD player, or TV catchup services from Murdock Corp and Auntie, and even then only occasionally. But if these agreement's aren't in place, then it becomes a very expensive Blu-ray player (I don't own Blu-rays).

    Whilst its still early days for known facts about the XBone (and the PS4 for that matter), neither has that 'must have' factor that I had for the previous generation. If they're not appealing to the casual user, and the hardcore gamers are up in arms, this generation could turn into big white (or rather subtle grey and black) elephant.

  26. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    So...

    I own a game on Blu-ray. I go to a friends house and I can play it there without the disk.

    Just the small matter of a 25Gb download.

    1. qwarty

      Re: So...

      Most of that 25Gb will not be required to be downloaded before playing the game, the vast bulk will be media assets related to where you are in the game which can be downloaded if and when they are needed. No reason I can't design a game with 250Gb assets but only a few megabytes to be installed before it can boot.

      In principle what Microsoft are doing makes a lot of sense and for some people (not all) represents a step forward in the console model of gaming. The devil is in the detail, much of which we don't know yet.

      Personally, I'm looking forward to being able to visit a friends house and address the kinect "Good morning Hal" to hear "Good morning Dave, what can I do for you today".

      1. OrientalHero
        FAIL

        Re: So...

        Have u not seen all of 2001 Space Oddessey???!

        Whilst seemingly cool and geeky to have Hal respond "Good Morning Dave, what can I do for you today?"

        deep inside you'll be fearing for the response

        "I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that."

        1. Captain DaFt
          Coat

          Re: So...

          Even worse, it suddenly switches to Bugs Bunny's voice and announces: "Eh, Doc, I seen what you did, I'm gonna tell the authorities, I'm gonna tell the athorities!"

  27. Confuciousmobil
    WTF?

    So?

    Most of my devices are always connected to the Internet, I usually make sure I buy things that can be.

    As for second hand games, I've never bought one or sold one.

    Some people might not like it but most won't care.

    People do like to moan, don't they?

    1. Lamont Cranston

      Re: So?

      Sounds like you're alright. Pull the ladder up, Jack!

    2. Greg J Preece

      Re: So?

      People like you piss me off more than Microsoft. You're alright, so fuck everyone else, eh?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Thumb Up

        Re: So?

        RE: Greg J Preece - "People like you piss me off more than Microsoft. You're alright, so fuck everyone else, eh?"

        Yup, 'cos you're the minority mate. Most people will buy it, plug it in & forget it.

        Given that all second hand games are going to go the same way it'll come back down to whether you want to do it on PC, PS4 or X-One - look at how many people queued up to buy CoD new, those are the people that'll always do it, same as there is always someone that'll pay $5000 for a bug ridden smart TV - just so they can have it first.

        Why would EA etc. give a stuff whether you only want to pay $10 for a second hand copy. As long as they make a billion from the same lot they always do, you can go jump in a lake 'cos you're not their customer.....

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: So?

      After I bought the PS3 for the kids, I bought 3 new games and 20 used games because the prices are outrageous for the content. They're responsible for saving their money and buying games or getting them as gifts because of that. I would never purchase a console if there was going to be a problem with playing used or RENTED games.

  28. Joe Montana
    FAIL

    Always listening

    Microsoft: "We're always listening to our customers"*

    * Via the kinect system integrated into the xbox one.

    And "The PC is backwards compatible with games like doom (1993)"...

    Not really, to play the original version you'd typically need an emulator like dosbox. The reason doom still works is because it was open sourced and people have updated it to work on modern systems.

    1. Greg J Preece

      Re: Always listening

      Not really, to play the original version you'd typically need an emulator like dosbox. The reason doom still works is because it was open sourced and people have updated it to work on modern systems.

      ....Which you couldn't do on a console. What, you think Microsoft would let people make an Xbox version of DOSBox?

  29. kdh0009

    We need the 'RIP' icon back

    See title - cheerio games consoles

  30. Gatt
    WTF?

    Another reason for me to stick with the PC..

    I've never been a fan of using a controller and prefer the keyboard/mouse - this is mainly due to the FPS style of games that I play - and due to me being brought up with the likes of the Spectrum 48k and C64 - (Z,X,P,L & SPACEBAR anyone?)

    PC Games have virtually died of death in shops - yet there are rows and rows (and walls and walls!) of Xbox and PSx games - with an average price tag of £45! Oh and then you have your Live subscriptions on top of that!

    Console are a massive rip off considering whats inside them, and the games are even worse!

    I'd much rather spend cash on upgrading the PC - knowing that I can still enjoy my old games as well as the new.

    Pre-owned games? not a problem - again Steam allows you to sell them on..

    Viva la PC!

    1. Crisp Silver badge
      WTF?

      Re: (Z,X,P,L & SPACEBAR anyone?)

      Q, A, O and P surely!

    2. M Gale

      Pre-owned games? not a problem - again Steam allows you to sell them on..

      No it doesn't. Not until the European courts whack Valve over the head a few times and make them enable that functionality. It'll probably only be enabled in Europe too.

      Even then, it's a shitty system and I'm having nothing to do with it. I can do without toys that come with built-in ransomware and spyware.

  31. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Not to worry

    In 18 months or so an iso loader and some sort of fake internet always on device will appear. Then i shall buy one, when the fucker is cracked wide open.... God ms are starting to piss me off. Since ballmer has been in charge, their decisions and products have been laughable....

    1. Charles 9 Silver badge

      Re: Not to worry

      Five pounds gives you ten the authentication connection will be over SSL with the consoles having the public key, meaning faking the authentication will only be possible by stealing the private key. Track records for private key thefts have been historically very low.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Windows

        Re: Not to worry

        Wont matter a jot if an ODE is developed for it.

        Thats whats happened for the PS3 and it seems sony are powerless to stop it. Ditto for the 360, the holy grail of LT3 is now widely released and, MS (for the moment) are unable to stop it.

        There are active markets and clever people working on these devices and the new incarnation will fail just as easily.

        That key will be worth a lot of money and given enough time, someone will out it....

        1. Jonathan 29

          Re: Not to worry

          The ODE (optical drive emulator) works precisely because PS3 and Xbox require no other verification than just the disc. Tying disc to account with online verification checks will be difficult to crack. The only question is whether the loss in sales and bad press is greater or less than the loss to piracy.

  32. Murphy's Lawyer
    Big Brother

    Thank you, Microsoft

    That's made me feel a lot better. I certainly won't be buying an Xbox One, with its HAL 9000 overtones; and haven't touched Sony since they infected PCs with rootkits on fake CDs (though I did waver because the PS3 was niiiiice, then they took away the opportunity to install Linux because OHMYGOD IT COULD BE USED FOR PIRACY).

    Yup - I'm smug and happy with my Wii U for niche fun games, and my PC for the hardcore stuff. Cheers.

  33. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge
    Trollface

    Get treated as if you were buying a government "service"...

    Problem, Customer?

  34. Anonymous Coward
    Black Helicopters

    useful data

    I guess this is the final piece of the jigsaw.

    Now the NSA will not only read your emails, texts, observe your facebook activity and google searches to see whether you're a terrorist (or anti-government troublemaker). They'll also be able to see how good you are with a gun and grenades via your Xbox, and even watch and listen to you 24/7 via the Kinect box in your living room.

    Of course MS might say they're not listening/watching all the time through that. But they also say they don't let the NSA have access to their servers, yet they appear to have it anyway.

    1984 has truly arrived.

  35. Potemkine Silver badge
    FAIL

    MS is going to vistasize the XBox

    - Captain, Iceberg ahead!

    - Stay the course, Full speed ahead!

    1. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge
      Trollface

      Re: MS is going to vistasize the XBox

      It's more like the Death Star Trench, with the Microsoft X-Wing soon to meet a fiery demise.

      "Stay on target"

      "I'm panicking!!"

      "Stay on target"

      "I'm listening!! I'm listening!!!"

      "Fire product!"

      "MISSED!"

      "BOOOM"

    2. Jonathan 29

      Re: MS is going to vistasize the XBox

      If the officer in charge of Titanic had done that then the ship would not have sunk. The problem was that they started to turn and consequently damaged multiple bulkheads.

    3. TheVogon Silver badge
      Mushroom

      Re: MS is going to vistasize the XBox

      "- Captain, Iceberg ahead!

      - Stay the course, Full speed ahead!"

      Which of course would have saved the Titanic. It only sunk because they tried to change direction...

  36. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Apple and Sony

    Apple got a lot of hate the way iTunes used to work - initially only DRM content was available and sharing was hard. They changed.

    Will Sony act in typical duopoly fashion and mirror Microsoft's position or will they take an opportunity to differentiate themselves and allow full off-line gaming and no restriction on the sale and transfer of used games. I fear we will get more of the same from Sony.

    At least people can go back to hating Microsoft for a little bit - a bit of a break from Apple hating.

  37. Danny 5
    FAIL

    aha

    So we've got the official word now. The console needs to be online at all times (and don't give me that crap about it only being once a day, that's the same thing) and you are not free to resell your games.

    Well that's the final word then, goodbye Microsoft! I've had tons of fun with the 360 and will treasure it as one of the best consoles i've ever had (and i've had some!). I'll likely be playing my 360 for a good while and will continue to do so once i've bought a PS4 (provided they don't go down the same road), but the Xbox one will NEVER sit in my home, not in a million years.

    I really thought Microsoft had turned a new leaf, i've even been dumb enough to defend them in discussion, oh how wrong i've been. I really believed Microsoft had my best interest at hart and was trying to be less "evil", but obviously it was all a ruse to get people onboard.

    It's one of the oldest tricks in the book really, act innocent and gain people's trust. Once you're in, start taking off heads! Problem is that Microsoft is now very likely to lose over half of their hardcore gaming userbase and i'd like to see them handle that loss.

    I hope Sony plays it smart and capatalises on this information, they stand to gain a massive amount of hardcore gamers, people who are more then willing to spend hundreds, if not thousands of dollars on their precious games.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: aha

      What is it about internet features being integral to the XBox One concept that gives you a problem?

      Most of my devices, phone etc. are always online (unless I switch them off) this seems no different to me.

      As far as I've read, you will be able to resell games (if publisher permits as true with PS4 too), what we don't know is exactly how that will pan out.

      Personally, I'll likely buy a PS4 or an Xbox One later in the year and will make the decision which in a few months when have full information not speculation and conjecture.

      1. Danny 5

        Re: aha

        You already answered your own question with "unless i switch them off". With all my devices, i CHOOSE to have them online and i set that choice as a requirement.

        1. TheVogon Silver badge
          Mushroom

          Re: aha

          You can 'choose' to turn off your Xbox One - or disconnect it from the Internet once it has checked in if you really need that much tin foil round your head....

      2. Jonathan 29

        Re: aha

        It is well known publishers hate used games. Give them the ability to block that and they will. Losing customers who buy used games is not going to cause them any sleepless nights.

  38. Eradicate all BB entrants

    Sony will do exactly the same .....

    ..... or worse as this is what the publishers want. While the Wii U may be able to survive without EA if many more publishers walk away Nintendo will be in trouble. Sony will face a similar choice. And on a personal note I would rather go with Xbox which especially on the 360 has added features over time unlike Sony which takes them away over time (downvote all you like but those who bought 1st generation PSP's day one and updated them will understand).

    As for the other points, can't play second hand games or borrow them? I never have on my current xbox, all purchased brand new (just waited till the price dropped online, except for Forza). I always have it plugged into the router so the always on makes no difference.

    As for the comparison with Steam, come on guys stop taking the piss. It's swings and roundabouts. I have over 120 titles on Steam and I quite like it. But while Steam has an offline mode, in order to share DLC with my son if he signed onto it on my computer I would have to buy it again, on the xbox he has access to it without the need to pay.

    1. Danny 5
      Meh

      Re: Sony will do exactly the same .....

      Sony can go right ahead and do the same, it'd be quite stupid though.

      If Sony goes down the same road, i'm switching to PC gaming and the vast majority of hardcore gamers that i know will do the exact same thing. Gaming companies seem to be forgetting that the gaming market is consumer driven. If you don't take care of your consumers, if you don't listen to their wishes, they will take their business elsewhere.

      1. g e
        Holmes

        Re: Sony will do exactly the same .....

        So far SONY have said they'll leave secondhand game-locking up to the publishers. Eminently sensible, makes the publisher look like a dick instead. They've also tempted folk with the idea of the online streaming of older titles for compatibility, which if they offer sensible access (e.g. original disk = pass to play for free) then excellent.

        If these statements are true and this is how the PS4 is going to launch then SONY must be checking the insurance on their execs to see if 'dying from laughter' gets a payout, right about now, as XBOX Vista has pretty much handed the next gen market to PS4 with sparklers, an umbrella and a little cherry on a stick.

        1. Eradicate all BB entrants

          Re: Sony will do exactly the same .....

          Are you seriously so against Microsoft you didn't read the article?

          "Third party publishers may opt in or out of supporting game resale and may set up business terms or transfer fees with retailers,"

          So Microsoft are leaving it up to the publishers, but you slag them off for it, yet laud Sony for doing exactly the same thing. You're an idiot. I so wish I could reach through the internet and smack your head off your monitor.

          1. Eguro

            Re: Sony will do exactly the same .....

            I think the disconnect lies in the notion that while MS will include a framework in their console that allows developers to do this, Sony will not.

            Should Sony not include such a framework - aka actually "leave secondhand game-locking up to the publishers" - then they are surely to be lauded.

            The inclusion of a 2nd hand market framework cannot be the wish of purchasers of the Xbone console, so clearly the customers that MS have been listening to in this regard are the publishers.

            Whether or not Sony is actually going leave it up to publishers I don't know, but the above would be the difference perceive at the moment between MS and Sony in this regard.

            1. Eradicate all BB entrants

              Re: Sony will do exactly the same .....

              Ok I am now forced to dumb it down so much.

              Developers/Publishers demanded this, MS had to capitulate as it would be pointless selling a games console that no one would make games for. Sony WILL do exactly the same but they are not/will not say so until close to launch. If you hadn't been blinded by shit reporting and your unwarranted hatred of all things Microsoft you may consider that what MS are implementing might be a framework to make the ball ache of trading games under these restrictions easier.

              2nd hand games. Why is it the majority of you will happily give Game/Gamestation 90%+ margin on a second hand game when the people who make the damned things are lucky if they get 10% on the new copy. In a previous life I was a games buyer for a major retail chain, I know how the retailers operate and blackmail is their preferred negotiation method.

              Even more bloody hypocritical is the majority of you criticising this are the same people who complain about freetards.

              1. Stiggy
                FAIL

                Re: Sony will do exactly the same .....

                Serious fail post, I'm afraid.

                From what's been announced, we can infer that:

                1) On XB1, every game WILL stop working if it can't check in with MS every 24 hours. This is unconnected with whether or not the publisher allows resale - it's built right into the OS.

                2) On PS4, any such shenanigans will be down to the publisher to implement independently. If they're that stupid.

                Want offline? No internet? Buy a PS4 and avoid the douchier publishers.

                Done.

  39. Hairy Spod
    Alert

    I'm bracing myself for a thousand downvotes here, but is it just me that thinks that this actually sounds more flexible than Steam?

    You know Steam which most people seem to love on their PC's why should it be any different on your console?

    1. Aoyagi Aichou

      @Hairy Spod

      It is more flexible than Steam, but it's "taking away liberties". I understand it makes people upset, but they only see their point of view and they think they have rights to resell something as specific as software(it doesn't decay, doesn't need maintenance, can have services related to it, etc, etc...). Besides, nobody said all games are going to have this 'feature', it's exactly the same like with always-online: it's up to the publisher to decide.

      1. Babbit55

        Re: @Hairy Spod

        Also on Steam brand new titles come out for significantly less AND they have awesome sales. Will we see 75% reduction on games for this? No, they will still be £45+

        1. Aoyagi Aichou

          Re: @Hairy Spod

          The sales might be a direct result of no-resale policy, but PC games have always been cheaper than XBox or PS games. The prices seem to drop tad faster though...

  40. Aoyagi Aichou

    "Redmond won't charge you any fees to do so, it's up to game publishers to decide whether it's allowed for their games"

    If that means what I think it means (publishers get the money), I fully support that. Downvote me to hell, but it won't change my opinion that it's publishers who should get money for their work, not second-hand stores...

    1. Danny 5
      Devil

      hmmm?

      I made this analogy before and am curious to hear what you think.

      If you buy a second hand car, would you be ok with you having to pay VW a fee, before you can drive it?

      If you buy a second hand Iphone, would you be happy with paying a fee to Apple, before you can use it?

      If you buy a second hand book, do you feel the author of the book should be paid for that same book again?

      Fair enough if your answer to all three is yes, but i presume that wont be the case.

      What's so weird about having ownership and thus full control of ANY product you buy?

      1. Aoyagi Aichou

        Re: hmmm?

        Cars use expensive spare parts, maintenance and a used car is hardly the same quality as a new car (unlike software) and cars are incomparably more expensive, plus are rather essential part of most people's lives.

        Apple gets massive margin from (again) maintenance, developers licenses and Appstore. If a game is ridden by DLCs, microtransactions and whatnot, resale fee is arguably bad.

        Books are often limited goods, but I wouldn't be exactly against some similar fee when it comes to books. Of course, books of certain age should probably be freed of this charge as there wouldn't be any way to get them otherwise and I do believe that this should apply for games as well. For example, I wanted to buy a new copy (license, whatever) of Freelancer, but I couldn't, because they simply don't sell it anymore...

        For most products, full control is not an issue, but software is obviously specific, because the quality doesn't worsen in time (in fact, it mostly gets better with patches) and because it doesn't make sense to me. I keep thinking of a comparison, but there isn't any, that's why the issue is so difficult to talk about.

        On a semi-related note, I posted this in the previous article's discussion, but too late: http://youtu.be/2G_f8YBy39M

        1. Danny 5
          Meh

          Re: hmmm?

          That doesn't answer the question, i asked if you where ok with paying a fee to VW when you buy a new VW golf, before you can actually drive it. I fail to see why the two cannot be compared.

          Your response to the Iphone doesn't answer the question either, but dances around the issue, is vague and offtopic. The question was simple, would you be ok with paying a fee to Apple if you bought a second hand Iphone, before you can actually use it.

          Your response to books is really a bit silly, there's a million and one events where people go to to trade books, there's a vast number of stores that sell second hand books and i am yet to hear an author complain about it, quite the opposite in fact.

          Why should software be any different from any other product? I buy code, written on disk and regardless of the content of the disk, i should be just as free to resell it, just as i would any other physical product. Why should software have a "status aparte"?

          I buy music on disk, which is exactly the same, ones and zeros written on a disk and i am free te resell that, how's that different?

          There's not a single argument that justifies this behavior. For many, many years companies making software have acted as if software is a product unlike any other, while in fact it's not. I outright refuse to be pushed into this way of thinking. If you're fine with their policies, then power to you mate, but i'll be damned if i let my views on this be changed by software vendors.

          1. Aoyagi Aichou

            Re: hmmm?

            Obviously answer to first two questions was "no" as both products are incomparable to software and therefore irrelevant.

            Maybe authors don't complain, because all they invest into the books is time, not millions of dollars.

            Software isn't physical product, it's virtual product.

            The fact that you are free to resell music doesn't mean anything, physical music CDs is only one level of income for the music industry and not even the main one at that. You're still comparing it to totally different things. Games are consumables that last for lifetime.

            I made several arguments before and games are hardly a "product like any other". You're free to disagree (or flat out ignore them as you seem to do that) and you can vote with your wallet. That is your right in this and I hope you'll use it.

            1. Danny 5
              Thumb Up

              Re: hmmm?

              I guess we could go on and on about this, but the truth is we obviously have a fundemental difference of opinion on what software is. I haven't heard any compelling arguments to explain why software is different from any other product. You say games last for a lifetime, but they don't. Their longevity is far outstreched by many other products. books supposedly last a lifetime too, as do movies, but neither are under the same scrutiny as software.

              I suppose we're going to have to agree to disagree in this case. I strongly disagree with you, but i respect your opinion (begrudgingly, i admit)

              1. Aoyagi Aichou

                Re: hmmm?

                Well, I'm terrible in explaining my thoughts. The video I linked explains some of it (thought I again disagree with some of his points). But I'm glad we at least agreed on disagreeing without tears, heh. I do hope that people who disagree with such practices will let them know the only way they care about (not buying the device), but I have a feeling that won't be the case... :(

            2. Ben Holmes
              Facepalm

              Re: hmmm?

              "Software isn't physical product, it's virtual product."

              Tell that to the software devs who spend their lives creating the games/utilities/operating systems that you use on a daily basis. Real man hours are put into creating these things. Where there is effort, there is a cost.

              Just saying.

              1. Aoyagi Aichou

                Re: hmmm? @Ben Holmes

                Sure, I'm the one who supports paying them for their efforts, not paying resellers who push second-hand games because they have better profit from them. But with the virtual comes "used is literally as good as new", therefore there is no objective reason to purchase a new game. Hence my belief that second-hand games are nonsense.

                1. GreenOgre
                  FAIL

                  Re: hmmm? @Auyagi Aichou

                  > "Sure, I'm the one who supports paying them [developers] for their efforts"

                  Unless each game is written entirely from scratch with zero re-use of code then, using your logic, each sequential title from a developer should be progressively cheaper. e.g. If the first title developed using a specific "engine" sells for $80, the price of the second (and subsequent) title(s) should not include the cost of developing the "engine". This is obviously not the case.

                  If the developers can re-use code, then users can "re-use" games.

    2. g e

      Same as SONY then?

      First time I've heard of this from M$, maybe they're back-tracking.

    3. A J Stiles
      Holmes

      Publishers have *already* had the money for their work -- the first time they sold it.

      Once they've sold it (meaning, it does not belong to them anymore) that's the end of their involvement with it.

  41. g e
    Holmes

    Which, incidentally

    Also destroys the second hand XBOX One market as now who gives a flying *%&£ if it 'comes with fifty games' cos all those games are now useless unless you pay £35/pop or whatever to activate each individual item.

    Which means that in two years' time, unless M$ truly have a cunning plan (let's face it, they've not had one in the last decade), the XBOX One is already kaput. Think about how many people you know who waited a coupla years to buy a new gen console at a lower price and with some thrown in game library, those people have now pretty much been told to go to Playstation, effectively, as there's no legacy compatibility to tie them in to previous gaming purchases either.

    They should have called it XBOX Vista. In fact I'll be calling it that now, going forward.

    1. Stiggy
      Thumb Up

      Re: Which, incidentally

      I'm liking XBox GOne myself.

    2. This post has been deleted by its author

  42. chiller

    A perfect opportunity for Sony ......

    .... watch them blow it big style.

  43. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    So they're going to do to XBox what they've done to desktops. Very wise.

  44. MS Screws the customer
    Thumb Down

    Another MS case of MS ignoring their customers!

    Let's see... MS didn't listen to their customers about windows 8 and the start menu.... We know where that has got them. Now they are making the exact same mistake with the XBOX. I personally won't be buying one.... And I love the XBOX360!

    Hopefully Sony will get this right! I have never been a PS fan but will be switching if they do.

  45. Dwidian
    FAIL

    Alienation

    Microsoft just alienated a significant portion of their customer base -- military personnel. Oftentimes they deploy with their game system, and to locations that don't have always-on internet available... or once-a-day internet access, for that matter.

    This blows.

  46. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    >"Third party publishers may opt in or out of" ...

    ... respecting your legitimate property rights in items you have purchased.

    They deserve to get their games pirated to hell and back for this act of criminal misappropriation. Why should they expect anyone to respect their property rights if they don't respect ours? One shitty turn deserves another...

  47. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Hoping enough others hold out....

    ....for the non--metro-ized, non-persistent-connection, non-killer of 2nd hand games

    .......Version: ....Xbox1.1 ....

  48. IHateWearingATie
    Thumb Down

    Not sure this is all MS' fault

    I suspect the game publishers are the driving force here - it looks to me like the cost of lost customers outweigh the benefits for MS

    And don't forget that parts of this are already happening on the current generation of consoles. I just got Grid 2, which to play online I need to either buy the "VIP pack", or enter the code for a free one they include in the box. If I sell Grid 2 on later, whoever buys it will have to buy access to VIP or only play it offline. The restrictions on XB1 seem to be a logical next step.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Not sure this is all MS' fault

      Is this Race-Driver Grid 2? If so loved the first one. How is the new one and where are all the places you can race? thanks...

  49. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I foresee a huge illegal profile-exchange market coming online ...

    "While a persistent connection is not required, Xbox One is designed to verify if system, application or game updates are needed and to see if you have acquired new games, or resold, traded in, or given your game to a friend. Games that are designed to take advantage of the cloud may require a connection."

    ....That's persistent in my interpretation of the word. Imagine how these daily updates will dog the box too!

    "The main benefit of this is that your games can now follow you wherever you are. You can login with your account on your friend's Xbox and play all of your games there. You can even share your games with up to ten members of your family, and they'll be able to play them wherever they go, too."

    ....I foresee a huge illegal profile-exchange market coming online with these changes. Either that or a significant number of people will opt to get their box's rechipped as they do in Asia and South America. It can be done for an existing 360 for $50. After that copied games cost $2. Can't see the new Xbox not being crackable. In fact these choices by MS will fuel piracy IMHO.

    1. Danny 5
      Thumb Up

      Re: I foresee a huge illegal profile-exchange market coming online ...

      I was thinking of that. Just create a gamertag with each game and sell it along with it. Your gamertag has lost all it's value anyway. they're going to give you achievement points for watching TV, elliminating the small bit of value the achievements had. With that, there's no use for your gamertag anymore either, so just create one with each new game.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: I foresee a huge illegal profile-exchange market coming online ...

        "they're going to give you achievement points for watching TV, "

        ........Yes, if that happens a Gamertag will just become a privacy liability....

        "Just create a gamertag with each game and sell it along with it."

        ........Seems like the smartest thing to do doesn't it?"

    2. Jamie Jones Silver badge
      FAIL

      Re: I foresee a huge illegal profile-exchange market coming online ...

      "....I foresee a huge illegal profile-exchange market coming online with these changes."

      Illegal? How? Where? Despite what MS and the media companies want you to believe, they don't have power over the first sale doctrine, which is LAW in both the US and (under a different name) the EU.

  50. Phil W
    Mushroom

    the Cloud

    As per my posts in other cloud computing threads I make the following ridiculous statement.....

    What is this "the Cloud"? Presumably since it's singular there must be only one "the Cloud" and my printing at work is in "the Cloud" so can print from my Xbox One to my work printers?

    Can I access my files on the servers at work with it to? They're in "the Cloud".

    My local pub as "the Cloud" WiFi hotspots, can I sign into these with my Xbox account and access my stuff?

    P.S.

    "The Cloud" is a stupid meaningless term.

    Reg journo's should know better. STOP IT!

    1. Lamont Cranston
      Trollface

      Re: the Cloud

      It's a catch-all term for remote storage, and also a specific brand on public Wi-Fi. Calm down.

      I have a Henry Hoover at home. He's not really a Hoover, though. Bet that makes you cross!

      1. Phil W

        Re: the Cloud

        Not at all, since Hoover is used to refer to a household vacuum cleaner. All household vacuum cleaners perform the same function.

        The Cloud as a catch all term doesn't work, because it doesn't just refer to remote storage as you say. It also refers to applications and services provided on distributed systems, as well as certain implementations of multi-site redundant server virtualisation. Though mainly my issue is with the use of the word "the", implying there's only one.

        Saying you have stuff stored in The Cloud, is no different that saying you have stuff on "THE server" without specifying what server you're talking about. Your stuff on "THE server" is certainly not my the server in my house.

        1. Lamont Cranston

          Re: the Cloud

          Oh, alright then, The Cloud is a catch-all term for applications and services provided on distributed systems, as well as certain implementations of multi-site redundant server virtualisation, and file storage. Saying that something is "in the cloud" is roughly analogous to saying that it's "on the internet" - both terms are vague, but imply that "it" (be it a file or an application) is in a location away from the device, and accessible via the user's internet connection. The Cloud is also the brand name of a WiFi hotspot provider, but this is usually not what someone means when the refer to "The Cloud".

          Bleh. That was a mouthful.

          Quick, everyone down The Pub (but don't specify which one!).

  51. Steve 54
    FAIL

    Game Over!

    I've been a gamer since the early 80's starting with my ZX81 and various Spectrum's and Atari's. I've owned Xbox and Xbox 360, Wii, PS1 and PS3 and I was quite excited about the new consoles. However, I for one won't be buying either, and it all comes down to a matter of trust.

    Sony have had their share of failed DRM attempts, or should that be rootkits? The killer for me though was when Sony decided I wanted 'Sing Star' on my console. So they installed it without warning and without giving me the option to skip installation, or to remove it. And today, it still sits there, unwanted, and unused. What is there to stop Sony doing the same again on the PS3, or the PS4?

    Microsoft have also lost my trust. Why do they have to check every day if my games are still licensed. If I own an Xbox One game for 3 years, that's about 1,100 licence checks. If my web connection goes down for more than a day, then they won't let me play Forza or MoH. Why? The game was licensed all the other 1,100 times they checked, but oh, I may have sold the game on eBay yesterday!

    As for the issues surrounding used games, I'm just glad that used cars are not banned or being treated the same way as MS wants to treat games. I have purchased a few used games in the past, mainly because the game was no longer available new, (Colin McRae Dirt for example). But under the new 'used sales model', you won't know how many times a game has been sold, so you won't know if MS will allow you to play it, so you won't buy the game.

    MS and Sony can still change their stances up until the day the consoles are released, so I'll be following developments with interest, but, for now, if these are their rules, my console gaming days will be over.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Game Over!

      "MS and Sony can still change their stances up until the day the consoles are released"

      ....It'll be interesting to see if MS are in actuality 'testing-the-market' with these announcements, and will change the terms before the launch if there's enough criticism. The big question is, have they learned from their Metro experience? If they have then they may use this time to better gauge the market. That said MS has historically been deaf as a post. So I wouldn't hold my breath.

      I despise Xbox Live. I feel its a gamer tax that Sony doesn't charge or didn't for the PS3 (afaik). And unlike PC games you can't play user-maps, which vastly increases the life of games. Just look at how many PC gamers still play COD2, COD4 and Far Cry2 for instance. Being online only serves two purposes, one is patches and updates. The other is phone hone tracking which can only lead to Ads...

      1. TheVogon Silver badge
        Mushroom

        Re: Game Over!

        "I despise Xbox Live. I feel its a gamer tax that Sony doesn't charge "

        You get what you pay for - it's much better than PSN. And Sony WILL be charging on the PS4.

    2. TheVogon Silver badge
      Mushroom

      Re: Game Over!

      "The game was licensed all the other 1,100 times they checked, but oh, I may have sold the game on eBay yesterday!"

      No - it's to check if you are playing the games somewhere else or if you transferred any licences.

      "But under the new 'used sales model', you won't know how many times a game has been sold, so you won't know if MS will allow you to play it, so you won't buy the game."

      What?! Under the existing model you have no idea how many times a game has been sold. Under the new model there will be an audit trail so it will be possible to know....Not that it will matter as you no longer need the disk...

  52. Karl Pearson
    WTF?

    Offline

    I moved house 18 months ago and it took 4-5 weeks to get BT to put down their brews and provide me an internet connection, so for the 1st 24 hours Micro$haft will allow me to use my console to game, but then for the next 4 and a half weeks it gathers dust as I like most people already have a blu-ray player and a TV signal so don't need the dvd player in the console or the TV service...

    I bought the 360 when it came out and upgraded it to newer versions since.... no more i'm afraid, my internet connection has been known to be down for a couple of days so everytime I would be screwed....

    I'll stick to my PC thanks....

    1. Himalayaman

      Re: Offline

      You mean Steam? 4 weeks no internet... forget playing your PC Steam games.

      1. Avatar of They
        Stop

        Re: Offline

        What? Works for me, unless the game is based online. (Though I can't think of many in steam like that, but something akin to diablo, or simcity)

      2. Greg J Preece

        Re: Offline

        You mean Steam? 4 weeks no internet... forget playing your PC Steam games.

        Don't believe he mentioned Steam, just PC. Or are you totally ignorant of the many other ways to get games on PC?

  53. mark l 2 Silver badge

    Looks like Microsoft are planning to kill even more of the high street stores by not allowing rentals and having grey areas over whether you will or won't be able to buy/sell second hand games.

    All this will do will make people go out and have there shiny new xbox1 chipped to play offline games/second hand and of course as part of the process the pirates will be the ones who are making the money not MS or the game developers.

  54. John117
    Trollface

    Licensing Trend ....

    Unfortunately, Microsoft has moved to a Gaming console licensing model similar to PC SW and OS. The hope is that Sony does not follow suit on their next gen console.

    WRT Microsoft's network connection requirement, one wonders if they are gathering statistical data to sell to advertiser to create a new revenue stream.

    I have been a long time XBOX fan and have enjoyed two generations of their consoles. I will skip the third gen console and move to PC gaming ala Steam or seriously take a look at Sony's new console.

  55. Lamont Cranston

    I used to think that video games were worth getting worked up about,

    but then I grew up.

    Trolling aside, mandatory online, and no 2nd hand games, makes the XBoxOne sound repellent. The idea that you could use your credentials on a friends machine, to play for a whole hour, gave me a good laugh, though.

  56. Himalayaman
    Holmes

    Used games

    How many of you even buy used games or bother putting games on eBay?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Used games

      All of my games are 2nd hand, bought a month or two after release for half the price.

      I never sell them though.

    2. Babbit55
      Thumb Down

      Re: Used games

      Almost my entire game collection is used, and CEX has managed to build a very successful chain of stores JUST selling used games, so I would say a good amount, even places like Asda and Tesco now sell 2nd hand games!

    3. teebie

      Re: Used games

      257 of us

  57. Tommy Pock

    It's up to 3rd parties whether to allow resale

    The reason for this - the only reason - is to create a loophole enabling Microsoft to evade any litigation by any companies involved in or dependent on the second-hand games market.

  58. Jonathan 29

    disc vs disk

    If you are going to allow people to play games from disk without an optical disc being present then there needs to be some way of verifying that the copy is genuine. That seems fair to me otherwise it becomes a rent/rip/return free for all.

    Having the disc present however should bypass any need for online checks and be sufficient to ensure ownership regardless of where said disc was purchased.

    The odd thing is the XBone doesn't have enough disk space to store that many games anyway.

  59. TheBeardyMan
    Joke

    The real meaning of the new console's name

    It's not "XB One", it's "X Bone", named after what they're doing to the customers.

    1. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge
      Devil

      Re: The real meaning of the new console's name

      Let Uncle Fester Fist Up the OXO With an XBone!

  60. sequester
    FAIL

    "Great" DVD player?

    If the 360 or any MS-related software player are anything to go by, Microsoft's idea of a "great" *-disc player is so far sub-par that my over a decade old standalone DVD player runs cirles around it in every aspect.

  61. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I had been looking forward to the new XBox. Not now. I will definitely not buy one. I had made that decision before the news about PRISM and the NSA snooping. Now my resolve is significantly stronger. Microsoft were one of the first to bend over and give unadulterated access to their servers and user data. Do I really want to buy a machine that can--and undoubtedly will--spy on me and my family?

  62. brain_flakes

    If they followed the Steam model I wouldn't mind so much (30 days offline play, mega discounted AA titles etc.) but pay full price for phyiscal games that can't be sold and can't be played after just one day of being off-line??

  63. teebie

    One the positive side

    ..the xbox won't listen in on every conversation you have in your living room, whether you allow it to or not.

    Are our expectations really this low?

  64. Thomas 4

    Neat

    I've never seen a console kick itself in the balls before.

  65. Why Not?
    FAIL

    The Royal one?

    Is it just me that read it as the Royal one?

    One does connect to the Internet, One does rule the gaming consoles, One does gouge you with fees?

    XBOX One thinks its royalty?

  66. This post has been deleted by its author

  67. Green Nigel

    XBoxed

    X Box nOne for me.

    Have MS boosted the old second hand console market values?!

  68. Danny 5
    WTF?

    and another thing

    Why should people even buy physical games in this model? surely there's no added benefit to it anymore? I might as well just buy my games from the online store. I guess i'm starting to see the even bigger picture, Microsoft and the game publsihers don't want a slice of the second hand market, they want a large slice of the entire retail business.

    Well what can i say, other then they can go F..K themselves?

  69. Green Nigel
    Trollface

    XBox 360 update

    that will also prevent un registered game use in the pipeline?

  70. Purlieu

    Offline

    So, I have connection problems for a few days, or, I go on holiday for 2 weeks.

    When I get back to my Xbox One what will work ?

    We need to know

  71. DanDanDan
    Facepalm

    Looks like I'll be getting the other console then...

    I'm very tempted at the minute to get a minute PS3 (£140, what can go wrong?) The bulky always listening Xbox 1 (Xbox 3 == Xbox 1? Makes sense...) is creeping me out.

  72. OldBiddie

    That's saved me a bit of cash on next-gen games and consoles. Let's see if Sony save me a bit more.

  73. Anonymous Coward
    FAIL

    Easy choice for me then...

    I completely skipped getting an Xbox360 or PS3. I'd predominantly had PC and Wii for the odd game or two.

    I did fancy getting an Xbox360 in summer due to the good USED back-catalogue of games that you can buy for between £10 upwards but was waiting on the clarifications for the XboxOne.

    Lack of backwards Xbox360 compatibility had already pretty much ruled it out but this news about the second hand market is pretty much the icing on the cake for me.

    Will hold out now and see what the PS4 is like now (although that too isn't backwards compatible) or just buy a cheap second hand Xbox360 and run it into the ground on older games.

    On the Internet side - if they had followed a model like Steam (activate once and allow offline play) then that would have been fine. As it stands - barring issues with the phone line etc. - we have always on internet here. Just means you wouldn't be able to take your console away on holiday (and sometimes the break away from technology is just fine)

  74. Shasta McNasty
    Thumb Down

    24 hour dial home

    If the repeated dial home (that you can't turn off if you want to play games) is for updates (that presumably you can't turn off either) then what are the odds of a poorly written update that could disable the world's xbox one machines within 24 hours?

    I mean its not like MS to release updates that make things worse, is it?

    1. Vladimir Plouzhnikov

      Re: 24 hour dial home

      Poorly written? It can be done on purpose (and I hope someone will do it).

      1. Shasta McNasty

        Re: 24 hour dial home

        I wasn't suggesting it wouldn't be done on purpose, just that MS would probably do it themselves anyway.

        In fact after the Xbox One is released, I give it about a week before someone has bypassed this and all dial home requests are being responded to by the router, which will probably open up a number of other exploits.

        1. TheVogon Silver badge
          Mushroom

          Re: 24 hour dial home

          Basic public / private key cryptography would defeat that type of auto responder. And as we all know, it is Sony that doesn't understand cryptography. Microsoft have historically been quite good at it...

  75. Avatar of They
    FAIL

    I love Microsoft

    No seriously, they are great, I mean they can STILL use the phrase "We listen to our customers", without any hint of sarcasm or irony, they can and still use that phrase.

    ....And no one has yet beaten them to death with their own foot?

    100% on Kinnect and 'should be' 100% on internet. What next? Gold membership (with the cost) 100% of the time. (You heard it here first folks)

    I will stick to PC's and Steam, at least they ask a very nice pop up question when they ask you if they can take something like PC hardware details, allowing you to say no.

    As a part time user of my Xbox and a one time user of the kinnect (the games were sh1t) it came with, gaming is poor, controls are poor, the degisn is poor, the titles are rehashed from previous ones and the sound of the machine playing a disk is louder than the film it is playing, all bundled under a windows 'metro' interface which takes a four step process to move bettwen menus and makes it a fifteen step process to move around, (or wave your arms like a dick) is also sh1te so why upgrade?

    Think I will stick with my PC and media centres.

  76. Downside
    Go

    Big. Deal.

    My XBOX is connected to the net 24/7.

    I'm taking a wild stab in the dark that 90% of existing 360's are connected 24/7

    The only thing that perturbs me is VirginMedia's inability to provide 24/7 internet, so I guess a switch to BT is inevitable come this autumn.

    Otherwise I am just not bothered in the slightest. My PC Steam account sure likes to check into the net regularly too.

    Of course, if you are

    a) Paranoid

    b) Like stealing your games

    This DRM 'centric move is probably gonna annoy you. Stick to your free add-sponsored mobile games or fire up your old 486 for a game of Dark Forces or Tie Fighter.

    1. Ben Holmes
      Stop

      Re: Big. Deal.

      You trust British Telecom to provide a 24/7 internet connection?

      Dream on.

      1. MrXavia
        Facepalm

        Re: Big. Deal.

        BT, 24/7? what a laugh...

        It took me 2 years to get them to send an engineer out and admit there was a fault!

    2. Danny 5
      Thumb Down

      Re: Big. Deal.

      You're missing the point. Yes, my 360 is wired to the internet 24/7 as well, but if i choose to do so, it'll fully function after i take the cable out. THAT'S the issue here. If i take out the cable of an Xbox one, it'll stop working after 24 hours and in my book, that's a big no no.

      And yes, i'm paranoid, do you feel completely safe knowing companies like Microsoft are likely to share their data with the NSA? data gathered by your console? by your consoles camera and microphone?

      Also, you attitidue is sorely lacking in common decency.

      1. Downside
        Devil

        Re: Big. Deal.

        Yeah, so how often DO you unplug your 360 from the net? Aside from when your ISP inadvertently does it for you? :)

        The "you"s in the next bit arn't directed to you, dear commentard, but to the reader in general.

        If you thought your browsing or phoning was private, then you have never worked in IT or engineering. Idle techs will happily read your emails for kicks, check your internet history or listen in to your calls. People get bored, and, truth be told, it's a giggle.

        As I've said elsewhere on the net, you are more likely to get shot in the US than have any of the agencies take an active interest in what you, joe public is really up to. Unless of course your mate you phone every few weeks is a coke dealer or an unknown-to-you armchair jihadi, in which case you'll pop up in their network analysis.

        This sort of SIGINT has been around for bloody years in the UK along with ANPR cameras.

        IN reality there is so much data, most of it is ignored. UK goes bonkers and elects the EDL on a landslide, I'm not worried. Its still quite easy to be an unnoticed child/soldier murderer with dodgy browsing habits, so most of the overly paranoid non-gamers on this thread can continue spitting their dummies out with no discernable impact on Xbox One sales.

        I fully expect the "must phone home" time to slip to 3 or 5 days or even longer once launch comes round.

        As a parting gambit, I guess most of you downvoters turn your phones off and take the sim & battery out once you've made you call or checked for SMS's.

        I think the PS4 might win the console "war" by virtue of being faster and bundling a library of games for a yearly subscription, a kinda netflix-for-games @ £50pa or somesuch; sorta xboxbox live with a point.. It will have zero to do with this farago.

        1. Convolute
          Thumb Down

          Re: Big. Deal.

          We never have our console plugged into the net mate. And when we go on holiday, and its raining and we have no internet connection, what do we do then?

          So in my opinion, a stupid terrible idea to have it permanent plugged in, or require a daily connection. Nothing to do with privacy fool.

        2. Danny 5
          WTF?

          Re: Big. Deal.

          Speak for yourself. I happen to be an email admin and i most certainly don't read my customer's email. None of my colleagues do either. I'm pretty sure this is just a sad trolling attempt, but if not i pitty your clients.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Big. Deal.

        I'm sure the NSA have better things to do than watch your gay fetish sex sessions, so unless you are using an RPG as a dildo, you are pretty safe imo.....

    3. M Gale
      1. Downside
        Devil

        Re: Big. Deal.

        Don't get in a tizzy. just don't buy one. It's not mandatory.

      2. TheVogon Silver badge
        Mushroom

        Re: Big. Deal.

        You can still dispose of your own property - the disk - as you see fit. It might not do much without a license though...

    4. PineyCreek

      Re: Big. Deal.

      That actually sounds like an awesome idea. Dark Forces and Tie Fighter were great games.

      1. Downside

        Re: Big. Deal.

        exactly. oh so so so many hours playing DF. Best StarWars game by a mile. {sigh}

    5. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge
      Facepalm

      Re: Big. Deal.

      > 2013

      > Using "paranoid" as an attribute with negative connotations.

      I SHIGGEDY DIGGEDY

  77. Jyve

    This makes the Ouya look highly impressive!

    Stunning that all this is blowing up in MS's face now. With E3 coming up, there's not going to be chance to talk about games. It won't be just games journalists there, but regular press (I hope) badgering MS execs on providing information to the Government.

    Always on? Kinect always running? Listening in? Identifying who's in the room?

    No wonder it's already being known as the Xbox1984

    1. OldBiddie

      Re: This makes the Ouya look highly impressive!

      Not likely - Microsoft have cancelled their press round table and won't be talking to journalist.

  78. Ted Sbardella
    Trollface

    Prizm preloaded?

    If it comes with Prizm preloaded. I can only imagine.. Just think at the NSA you can cobble together the largest voyeur collection ever imagined. its Amazing HAL.. its full of naked people.. Xbone is People! its People talking in the living room! So y’all need to hide your kids, hide your wife, and hide your husband cause they’re tapin’ everybody out there.

  79. PineyCreek
    FAIL

    Well, that cinches it

    The pretty much required Kinect that's on all the time, the restrictions on used games, the blatant invasion into privacy beyond what I normally expect from Microsoft, the crappy price, no backwards compatibility and honestly the console's fugly. I don't mind the "always on" Internet required, I kind of expected that. The only pull they could possibly have at this point would be that the exclusives would have to be amazing. Like REALLY amazing. Like beaming a holographic Scarlett Johanssen into my living room that I could interact with amazing.

    If I have to get another console, it'll be PS4. Or I'll just spend my money on my PC...I can emulate DOS on there and play the original XCom on that. How's THAT for backwards compatibility.

  80. Jay 11

    Considering we have a legal right within the EU to resell software under our own terms how exactly without adding time limits to the ownership of software, which is of dubious legality in itself when media is supplied do Microsoft intend to implement this without falling foul of the law. Even if as Microsoft say they are merely allowing Software houses to charge they are directly facilitating an illegal act and as they charge a license fee on each and every new sale they are benefiting from an illegal act.

    I think someone needs to write a piece on the legality of Microsofts actions. This could make the anti trust cases small in comparison.

    1. Charles 9 Silver badge

      Simple: They never sell you the software in the first place, merely subscribe or lease you to it (think Steam and OnLive; both use the same model). You cannot resell what was never legally yours.

      1. This post has been deleted by its author

      2. Jamie Jones Silver badge

        "Simple: They never sell you the software in the first place, merely subscribe or lease you to it (think Steam and OnLive; both use the same model). You cannot resell what was never legally yours."

        That argument has been proved invalid:

        From: http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2012-07/04/eu-judgement-implications

        "On 3 July, the European Court of Justice made a pretty important judgement. It said that software makers exhausted their distribution rights when they sell software to a customer -- whether it's on a physical medium or distributed over the web.

        That sounds dry, but what it means is that customers can re-sell their digital downloads, and developers have no ability to prohibit second hand sales."

        Also, the court said: (From: http://www.bit-tech.net/news/gaming/2012/07/04/curia-digital-distribution/1 )

        ‘The principle of exhaustion of the distribution right applies not only where the copyright holder markets copies of his software on a material medium (CD-ROM or DVD) but also where he distributes them by means of downloads from his website. Where the copyright holder makes available to his customer a copy – tangible or intangible – and at the same time concludes, in return form payment of a fee, a licence agreement granting the customer the right to use that copy for an unlimited period, that rightholder sells the copy to the customer and thus exhausts his exclusive distribution right. Such a transaction involves a transfer of the right of ownership of the copy.

        ‘Therefore, even if the licence agreement prohibits a further transfer, the rightholder can no longer oppose the resale of that copy.’

  81. William Hinshaw
    Mushroom

    buhbye M$

    The reasons I can't purchase the new XBOX.

    1. It spies on you 24/7 with camera and mic.

    2. Basically requires an always on Internet connection to feed data to the NSA, M$ marketing and sales as well as the highest bidder. You can damn well bet they will sell it just like GOOGLE does.

    3. M$ can't ever make something secure. I give it a month tops before some hacker is spying on some MILF and posting it on 4Chan. Or god forbid some fat old man.

    4. Now I have to ask for M$'s permission to give a game away let along sell it.

    Any one of these items is a deal breaker, but if the games are good enough MAYBE give it a go, but all of these (and I'm sure there are more issues) is just too much to take. I'll stick with the 360 and just skip the XBOX 1, I was planning on getting it and the PS4 but meh just the PS4 and more games I guess for that system. I wasn't planning on getting the WII U but I might as well now as there is no way in hell I'll get and XBOX One till I can run it without the Kinect plugged in, with the ability to filter the data that M$ receives and the ability to give the games that I PURCHASED away to friends and family as I FUCKING see fit without their knowledge or fucking permission.

    FYI they can also take that METRO ui and shove it up their ass so far that they choke on it.

    I wanted to be polite about this but I just couldn't. I had high hopes for the new XBOX but it comes with so much of the worst aspects of technology that it just angers me in the extreme and knowing there are so many sheeple that will simply get it cause they don't understand just serves to make me madder still. Till the XBOX 1.1 comes out I just will not get it and I will tell everyone I know just how invasive it is and I'll be doubly sure that all the mothers out there know that hackers will be spying on them and their children hoping to get some nude footage of them to post for all to see and fap too.

  82. Adam T

    Worry not

    "...you can still watch live TV and enjoy Blu-ray and DVD movies. "

    They should promote the writer of that line to VP. If only they weren't already.

  83. chris 143
    WTF?

    Take my games with me where ever I go?

    Assuming I'm prepared to wait for ~4GB to download?

  84. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Real test

    People will buy it, mostly because they are completly clueless about this. They'll bitch and scream and moan when they go to said used games stores, however, that it's totally unfair they can't exchange Xbox One games. That, sadly, is when they will realise how stupid the idea is. By then, everybody else will be doing the same and we'll start to see the death of the console.

    What's annoying is they are doing the same thing with Office and Windows too now. You should see how fun that is when some broke ass shows up at the tech shop and wants you to install his sister's cousin's office on his 7 years old computer, cause now they can't see the cat pps ...

  85. Techs UK
    Happy

    All sounds good to me

    don't you have to keep your Sky box connected every day too?

    my 360 is connected every day too

    i'd rather have this than the shuffling the disks in and out of the trays when I switch game - I just want to play it.

    true, it's not like the PC.

    how does steam do it? how often does it have to call home?

    loads if you lot are winging about it, but it's an awesome way to get a reliable, fantastic spec gfx machine.

    1. King Jack
      Holmes

      Re: All sounds good to me

      What happens when you fill the hard drive? It is not upgradeable and all games must live on it. So 15 games or so in, you will have to delete your collection to play something new. So games will only be available for a few months to the average person. You can always revert to 'shuffling disks'. You should think more.

      1. Charles 9 Silver badge

        Re: All sounds good to me

        Where does it say the games MUST reside on the internal drive? What happened to external drive support which already exists on the 360?

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: All sounds good to me

        You can download all of your games any time from the cloud.

        Assuming the average game is 15GB, that's at least 30 games installed to HDD before you have to consider rotation. That's adequate for the vast majority of people. And I expect a 1TB model will be out soon enough...

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Don't come crying to us when you crave gaming but all you can do is watch DVDs!

      Think it will never happen? Then you're making big assumptions. How will this 24 hours limit work exactly. We don't know! Take a scenario where someone in your house watched DVDs and BlueRays all day yesterday, but they had stupidly unplugged the router. Now today, there's maintenance in your area and your net connection is down. You've just got home from work and you're craving some gaming but the AdBox1 wants to call home first... On that day by all means enjoy your "we are planning for a connected future" user experience! I think the connected interval needs to be longer i.e. a week minimum. Otherwise taking the box on holiday for instance is out of the question.

    3. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge
      Trollface

      Re: All sounds good to me

      "loads if you lot are winging about it, but it's an awesome way to get a reliable, fantastic spec gfx machine"

      This message brought to you by Lilly, the purveyor of the world-renowned PROZAC®

      PROZAC®. Makes even your XBone look good! (1)

      (1) Approved by the FDA. May not be fully remimbursed by government-free healthcare. Failure to medicate regularly is highly correlated with suicide. Please talk to your government-regulated MD about problems and counter-indications. Do not be alarmed. Be seeing you!

  86. Levente Szileszky
    FAIL

    Ballmerian MSFT: HOPELESSLY TONE-DEF & UTTERLY ARROGANT...

    .., that's all I can say about these incompetent idiots these days - sorry for repeating myself: http://forums.theregister.co.uk/forum/4/2013/06/05/microsoft_windows_81_demo_computex/#c_1849566

    Obligatory reminder with the Vanity Fair link to read the greatest article about MSTF & Ballmer from last August:

    "How Microsoft Lost Its Mojo: Steve Ballmer And Corporate America's Most Spectacular Decline"

    http://www.vanityfair.com/business/2012/08/microsoft-lost-mojo-steve-ballmer#1

  87. Levente Szileszky
    WTF?

    So much for Chief Xboxer Dan Mattrick, so-called "new rising star" in this freak show...

    ...because unless he quickly changes direction in due course it will be ENDLESSLY ENTERTAINING to see them losing BEEEELLIONS on this awful-looking, ass-backward anti-console (before they will be eventually forced to drop these totally idiotic requirement.)

    My fav was their utterly fake, staged "discussion" with that other clown, NFL Commissioner, both sitting in a cutaway shot with their socks out under the khaki pants, with those butt-ugly, utterly distasteful lame "business" shoes...

    ...the quintessential boring, corporate shitkickers-ruled MSFT and partner world. Perfect shot.

    Speaking of which... the Vanity Fair link to read the greatest article about MSTF & Ballmer from last August:

    "How Microsoft Lost Its Mojo: Steve Ballmer And Corporate America's Most Spectacular Decline"

    http://www.vanityfair.com/business/2012/08/microsoft-lost-mojo-steve-ballmer#1

  88. knarf
    Flame

    Goodbye XBOX

    I've 3 xbox consoles in the house, mine and two kids all linked via xbox family account. So we won't be buying ANY console which does not allow us to swap games between consoles in the same house.

    F@~k you F$£king F$£ker Microsoft.

    1. The_Regulator
      FAIL

      Re: Goodbye XBOX

      Did you even read the stuff, it specifically says you can share your games between 10 people on your friends/family account .........

      1. M Gale

        Re: Goodbye XBOX

        Or alternatively, buy a games machine that doesn't have a built in camera and microphone and demand you tell Microsoft who you and your contacts are before allowing you to fire it up, or even pass a disk around.

  89. jmk89
    Pint

    Long live the 360

    The XBOX 360 has a massive user base, is cheap as chips to to produce, is powerful enough and developers know it inside out. Gonna stick with it for the forseeable future!

    1. M Gale

      Re: Long live the 360

      "And developers know it inside and out", like XNA that's being rapidly deprecated?

      Unfortunately, people won't be developing for the 360 much past the release of the Xbox One, for the same reason nobody makes PS2 games any more.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Long live the 360

        "Unfortunately, people won't be developing for the 360 much past the release of the Xbox One, for the same reason nobody makes PS2 games any more."

        I think its different this time. I remember how things quickly moved on from the PS2 in terms of game development. However people were still buying PS2's for GTA and many other games until long after, especially as the prices dropped. In the case of the 360, I think they're going to continue to sell well after the launch of the new box. Here's some reasons why....

        I don't see the AdBox1 being adopted as quickly as the 360 was. It will be substantially more expensive with Kinect. The latter is a gimmick that has yet to prove itself. I haven't found anyone here who can tell me how it adds value to the user experience in any of the titles listed below for instance.

        I believe that Microsoft will be competing with itself. For instance the Xbox 360 4GB model is attractive as its inexpensive due to MS skipping the overpriced HD, unnecessary Kinect and any bundled games. Memory isn't a problem as you can reuse old USB memory keys. Second-hand games are cheap and easy to come by. But crucially the 4GB 360 can play all the latest games. So far I've tested Bioshock Infinite, Dishonored, Far Cry 3, Hitman, Skyrim, Halo 4, Forza 4 / Horizons, FIFA 13.

        In addition, there are privacy and connectivity issues and data collection fatigue is setting in. A lot of people will sit on the sidelines and see how this plays out. But there are no such concerns with the 360. I think MS has vastly overweighed the importance of its TV interactivity and Kinect. BlueRay and DVDs are so yesterday when you can watch 1000's of TV shows or Films off a cheap external drive.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Long live the 360

        As per the E3 announcement - there are over 100 new Xbox 360 games currently in development.

  90. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Offline Local Multiplayer-- Split-Screen & System-Link...

    "With Xbox One, we are planning for a connected future"... How nice for you! Now listen up MS! My circle want the best Local Offline Multiplayer gaming experience. i.e. Multiplayer SPLIT-SCREEN (co-op optional). We want offline SYSTEM-LINK back! Forget Xbox Live, its expensive and you can't play User-Maps. Take a look at the extensive collection of free COD2 and COD4 user maps for PC. Many rival the built-in maps in more recent versions of COD...

    Moreover, stop making assumptions about what everyone wants. You remember Metro, right? Did the same Focus Groups tell you that everyone loves Xbox-Live? Its simply not true! Playing strangers is not as much fun as playing against close friends in the same room. The latter is quite social and connected! But there's no money in that for you is there? And what about network latency (LAG) and controller differences that make online gaming a mixed experience at best.....?

    Lastly, we don't want enforced patches and updates when all we have is 5 mins to play before catching a bus. With the direction this is going it may actually reboot the PC sector. Because gamers like us will buy high-end PC tech in order to wriggle back control. It won't solve the 2nd hand game issue as Valve blocks that market too, but at least we can control what we see and when updates are done.

  91. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    "Allows developers create ... persistent worlds that evolve even when ...not playing"

    #1. "As the console is always on, it allows developers to create "massive, persistent worlds that evolve even when you're not playing", Microsoft said."

    This is a positive? Surely it can only lead to inconsistent and varied gaming experiences by region and class of broadband? Until maybe we're all on fibre in decades to come or we all move to the USA!

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    #2. "After signing in and installing, you can play any of your games from any Xbox One because a digital copy of your game is stored on your console and in the cloud."

    Great. But without fibre how long will it take to download these games? Not sure the cloud offers all that much of an advantage here unless you've lightening fast broadband, which most of us don't have.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    #3. "You can game offline for up to 24 hours". "Offline gaming is not possible after these prescribed times until you re-establish a connection, but you can still watch live TV and enjoy Blu-ray and DVD movies."

    For my money this has to be the lamest assurance ever. I've had regular 2-3 day outages with building and road work in my area for the past two years. I can't imagine I'm all alone on that. Watching TV-- WTF? You can do that w/o the AdBox1. And watching DVD or Blue-Ray movies in a world of cheap storage and MP4 / AVI movies, hello? While we're at it, I hope they improve the tray door opening system. If a person or pet brushes past my 360 it triggers the tray door and the game aborts. Anyone know a fix?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-22812743

  92. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Should have called it the Xbox Zero..

    .. because that's the chance of me buying one now.

    same for other members of the family who have got through 3 360s each.

    RIP (console) games industry.

  93. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    AdBox-One.... We know what you're up to Microsoft...

    We don't want phone home tracking of our TV viewing habits! It will only lead to being bombarded with highly targeted invasive ads which get in the way of gaming. So stick your Ad-Box-One plans! Christ we need a privacy backlash of omnipotent proportions to break this kind of trend, where companies routinely think its ok to track you to death-- sorry-- I mean connect the world into being more social. Jesus, euphemisms that advertisers have hijacked, eh?

  94. MrXavia
    FAIL

    So, lost sale from me then, I was planning on buying an XBOX one, but if its always on, no thanks...

    Sure its great you can buy digital games, BUT what happens if your internet goes down for a few days?

    More of the Sims style restrictions.....

    Can someone please create an Open Source Console?

    1. M Gale

      Open source games console

      Or at least, as open as the games industry is ever likely to get.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Well I guess what is needed is a HTPC but designed for gaming, and a decent range of accessories, such as wii controllers etc...

  95. The_Regulator
    Facepalm

    always on internet no problem check

    no used games no problem check

    Personally none of these things are an issue for me but I am sure for many out there they are, makes me laugh at the Shite that people come up with though.

    I want to see what Sony has to say and I am going to laugh if they are taking the same stance (which I expect them to) PS4 seems strangely elusive though dont you think?

    1. M Gale

      I'm alright, jack.

      Guess little old me on a mobile Internet connection is stuffed then. Good for you.

      I'll just have to console (har) myself with the 200mph model aircraft that's sat in the shed begging me to make a new crater with it. Or maybe the palm-size quadcopter. Perhaps I'll try and jump a house with the nitro monster truck again, or attach cameras/sensors/etc to any of the above for more amusement?

      All are toys that cost less than an Xbox with no games, and provide vastly more amusement with no risk of spyware. I can sell 'em on when I'm bored with them or running out of space, too. There's a couple of people who have some nice five-foot-wingspan four-channel trainer airframes thanks to me (that'll be the Arising Star and Tutor 40). Built like tanks, tend to hit the floor and bounce, unlike your average games console.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      I guess you aren't aware that the PS4 can be completely offline with no need to phone home. And it came from Yoshida himself

      http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-02-21-the-big-interview-sonys-shuhei-yoshida-on-ps4

  96. Anonymous Coward
    Stop

    You do the math.

    500GB hard drive.

    Disks on the Trojan Blu-Ray format (as was previouslled termed by Microsoft) at 50GB a game, mandatory installs...

    Yep, you can have a whole 10 games on your Xbox One, less if you use it for it's primary purpose of being a STB...

    People really want this crap?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: You do the math.

      Hard Disk installs are NOT mandatory on Xbox One, except for small amount of game files.

      I think you are thinking of the PS3 where whole games gave to be copied to disk because the included Poo Ray drive is so slow...

  97. Herby Silver badge

    Shades of Windows 8?

    It seems to me (a non gamer for sure) that the suits at Microsoft really DON'T understand their audience. They seem "to know what is best" for everyone and think that the public "should be thankful" for their technology.

    This attitude has detrimental effects on the population as a whole. They really don't trust the manufacturer and will probably vote with their pocketbooks. The net result is that a big financial rag (Forbes) is predicting that if Sony's PS4 does things "right" it might win the console war "by default".

    It could come to pass that Microsoft will come out with Xbox One.1, but I won't hold my breath. The more likely event is that they will force a touch-screen interface on the FPS gaming community (which ought to be good for a laugh)!

    Time will tell.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      "the public "should be thankful" for their technology."

      Reminds me of the line: "its not the industry that is God, its the brand. And like God, you'll take what you're given and be grateful"...

  98. shawnfromnh
    FAIL

    Open your eyes

    Between the latest Sim City that was always on and lied about the ability that a hacker found for offline play, and the failure of Diablo 3 which I wouldn't buy because it need also to be on I guess MS didn't learn a thing. I also like a lot of gamers aren't into MMO's at all and would rather play against the computer like Diablo 2 which I played for several hundred hours.

    If this crap keeps up there won't be any companies to have console wars.

  99. Serge 2

    How it works today

    Forget about customer is always right. Today its more like the shareholder or the investor is always right. Today customers are ten a penny but investrs are a lot harder to find. The focus today is how to keep them happy and well lets face it, who cares about end user.

    For a manufacturer the chain of parasitic feeders is so large that they never meerlt the end user face to face. Such is the perils of making money out of thin air and imaginative value added by publishing houses and distribution cartels. So piss and shit on little guys we are but a money cows.

    Fuck off Xbox 1, PS4 and the like. For now I will use my 360 until it dies. Then I will look forward to Steam hopefully releasing their own console. (I hope it would one day happen)

    1. Joerg

      Re: How it works today

      Fact is.. if customers don't buy products.. in this case the fake next-gen consoles frauds XBoxOne and PS4 (which is going to be the same DRM crap.. software houses signed a multi-million dollar agreement for that).. investors won't exist anymore...

      The real money comes from customers not investors.

      Any manufacturer that doesn't sell the products is doomed to go bankrupt.

      And Microsoft clearly deserves to now more than ever before.

      And Sony managers just have to decide if they want to go bankrupt too or not.

      These rich managers thieves like bankers thing that scams and frauds along with marketing lies to sell the crap to people is the only and best way to do business.

      These people are criminals. Indeed. And they are untouchables, obviously the corrupted justice system is being paid to stay silent worldwide along with politicians.

  100. RonWheeler
    Windows

    Cloud revealed

    One of the clearest examples upfront of what 'The Cloud' is all about to the big boys. Ransomware. Pay up or you can't access your own stuff.

    Hopefully we'll see a resurgence of PC gaming over the next few years. Steam may be a annoying and sucky, but it was never so brazenly controlling as this.

  101. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    PS4 will likely be the same

    Think about it: if you're a publishing company like EA etc... and you have one console basically offering to block or at least make used-games trading as difficult as possible, and another not preventing the (lucrative) used-games market, which one are you most likely to publish to?

    This strikes me as being more about listening to companies like EA, Ubisoft etc.. who aren't going to be big fans of the used market. You can imagine the board room conversation now:

    Exec1: XBOX ONE has limited used sales but PS4 doesn't.

    Exec2: What does that mean for our run rate?

    Exec1: Well, if we develop for XBOX ONE, the used games market won't impact our sales so much.

    Exec2: And PS4?

    Exec1: Sony haven't done anything to line our pockets lately..

    Exec2: Then that's settled! Let's develop *exclusively* for XBOX! Now, who's for Tacos?

    <Enter stage right> Bullmar: Did someone say "Tacos"?

    I can't imagine Sony not doing something extremely similar to Microsoft. They just haven't told anyone yet.

    1. DougS Silver badge

      Re: PS4 will likely be the same

      That assumes people don't refuse to buy Xbox One over this. From all the complaints about this and predictions of doom for Xbox One, that's probably not the best assumption.

      The game companies that went exclusively Xbox One as you suggest would quickly go bankrupt, and those less stupid game companies that produced titles for PS4 would benefit. Sure, it sounds good to sell games for a console that has no used market. It also sounds good to Ford and Toyota to sell cars that don't have a used market, but they'd quickly find that they simply gave GM and Honda a lot of new customers if they changed policies to prevent their customers from selling their cars used without handing them a cut.

      If Sony does the same thing, it won't help Xbox One, it'll just mean that this will be the last generation of consoles.

    2. TheVogon Silver badge
      Mushroom

      Re: PS4 will likely be the same

      The problem for Sony is that Microsoft have patents on their licensing and DRM technology.....I'm sure they would have loved to do the same - but they don't have the capabilities...

      What Microsoft have done is actually ahead of the curve. Disks are dying. Downloads are the future. And what Microsoft have provided - ability to sell games, ability lend them to up to ten friends at once is far more than say Steam have provided....

  102. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    The correct title for this article is...

    Microsoft gives serious consideration to leaving the gaming market.

  103. TheHappyBunny
    Thumb Down

    Old Xbox games unplayable on new console

    I think the dealbreaker is that the new console won't be able to run any previously made games, so owners of the new machine will only have a few new titles to play anyway - no legacy games will be supported.

  104. Unicornpiss Silver badge
    FAIL

    Think I'll pass

    I'm not much of a hardcore gamer, but the features of this console make it interesting... until you get to the part about the draconian DRM. Do we really need even more restrictions like these in our lives? And do we need another device around that becomes an expensive paperweight if not permitted to constantly phone home to Big Brother? (and report back only God and MS knows what) I think not.

  105. Cipher
    Megaphone

    Attention Microsoft:

    Thank you for validating my decision to move to Steam.

    Attention Steam: Thank you for moving towards Linux...

    1. M Gale

      Attention Cipher:

      Good luck trying to sell those second hand Steamworks titles.

      Frying pan -> Fire?

  106. SnakyGamer
    WTF?

    End of console era is near??

    They seem to be shooting themselves in the foot... several times...

    I still have hopes for PS4 though

  107. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Not so stupid

    Microsoft might sometimes be stupid, but they ain't that stupid. They are unlikely to be testing the water either.

    I fully expect the PS4 to act in a similar way.

    Why? Because this idea won't have come from the hardware manufacturers - it's come from the software side. The publishers will have been pushing for this. Quite probably Nintendo didn't want to go along with it - and so EA announced it will stop working with them.

    If you want to be paranoid about it, view the always-on requirement in the light of yesterday's Prism news. New tech offering new way of communicating? We'd like to monitor that thanks.

    One thing I did wonder - with the number of servers that are being brought on stream for this, will peer-to-peer XBL gaming be a thing of the past? Because for me, the biggest thing killing the Xbox right now is lag caused by such a hosting arrangement.

  108. P Taylor
    Megaphone

    Always listening to customers.

    Microsoft always listen to their customers. After all, they released Windows 8 and Office 365.

    Oh wait.........they are not what we wanted either.

  109. CeeBeePee
    Happy

    What a pity - I was on the point of buying an X-Box for the family but not any longer after reading how Microsoft wants to take control where and when we play our games and what we do with them when we are tired of them. No-way, Never!

    Besides, when we go to to our holiday home we don't have an internet connection .... so how are the kids going to play on the XBox on a raining day then? This is a stupid idea from a greedy manufacturer. Microsoft should be ashamed of themselves.

    BTW: When I was checking out gaming consoles in-store yesterday I found out that there are some really fantastic deals going on Sony PlayStation so I think we will head in that direction and give MS the big miss!

    Now, if only Google were to release an open source gaming console .........http://www.theregister.co.uk/Design/graphics/icons/comment/happy_32.png

  110. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    And Microsoft had the nerve to call the PS3 little more than a DVD player...

    Oh how the past comes back to haunt you...

    http://spong.com/article/10219/Microsoft-PlayStation-3-is-New-Betamax

    Full list here:

    http://www.psu.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-143148.html

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      "when we go to to our holiday home we don't have an internet connection "

      Just tether your mobile phone to it for a minute. Not exactly hard to deal with....

  111. Jamie Jones Silver badge
    FAIL

    fail

    "Although it will be possible to trade in, resell, or give away your disc-based games in some cases, and Redmond won't charge you any fees to do so, it's up to game publishers to decide whether it's allowed for their games – and how much it might cost."

    No, it's up to the laws of the land.

  112. Convolute

    Boycout

    Well, I have always been a PlayStation fan, but my flatmate who is a long time Xbox FanBoy is now not even considering a new Xbox one due to the 2 new policies.

    PS allows for free online game play, game trading and resale and also, doesn't require access to the internet regularly.

    So, now to my delight, we will now be a PS only house hold. Good on you Microsoft, a great way to alienate the fans of your console.

    1. TheVogon Silver badge
      Mushroom

      Re: Boycout

      Uhm, but PS4 reqiures a compulsory subscription to play on line....

  113. Efros
    FAIL

    Not a gamer

    Looking at this from the outside, it seems a truly gigantic waste of time and money to invest in all that R&D to end up with a finished product that, because of a couple of 'features', drives your potential and loyal customers into your competitors hands.

  114. RAMChYLD
    Alert

    Just thought of another thing...

    It's an X86-64 CPU. Meaning it should be X86 compatible. It's also running NT6.3, which should be NT5 compatible.

    The original Xbox uses an X86 CPU and NT5. Why isn't it backwards compatible with the original Xbox then?

    1. TheVogon Silver badge
      Mushroom

      Re: Just thought of another thing...

      Because no one now cares about the original Xbox games. If it was the Xbox 360 then it might be another matter...

  115. goats in pajamas

    I don't own an x-box...

    ...but feel compelled to add my 2 cent's worth.

    Microsoft, grrr, tut tut tut, typical, what else do you expect, developers, monkey boy, grrr.

  116. wowfood

    I don't see why

    the whole "ermahgerd it don't suppert legacy" thing is such a big deal. Up until ps2, no console supported legacy.

    Can I play my nes games on my snes? nope, snes on my n64? nope, n64 on lamecube? nope. I honestly don't mind the whole lack of legacy thing and it's not really a deal breaker for me.

    I mean lets face it, most legacy games are only played for the purpose of nostalgia (I still play ff7 every now and then) or because the new console doesn't have enough games yet.

    As for the 'no used games' bit, that irks me slightly but at the same time I think it might actually be better for consumers. In the last few years we've had games that come with DLC, whether it be online mode, multiplayer mode, or key parts to the game itself (robin in arkham city) those DLC are being sold between £15 and £12.99 and yet you're still getting stores like GAME selling these games pre-owned for about £2 less then the game would be brand new, and people are buying it while losing out on the DLC so are technically paying more if they want the full game.

    Now if the pre-owned market wasn't such a rip off it wouldn't be quite so bad. (I walked out of GAME with a large stack of games once, 7 games and they offered me £2.50 for them, most of these games were on sale pre-owned for £20 each) but as it is right now, I'm almost in support of blocking off pre-owned games.

    Besides, if microsoft block pre-owned but sony don't, all that'll happen is these companies will continue to put in built in DLC for £10 or however much, and then customers will be ripped off even worse with the pre-owned section. End result is (hopefully) people realize that pre-owned is not the way to go anymore and they buy new anyway.

    As a final note, kinda bored of all the comparisons of used games to used cars. You buy a games console and that's it, you have th console and the games and the car companies have their money. You buy a used car, you still (with a lot of them) need to buy tha tspecial toyota crank shaft which is the only one that fits your car without modifications. Used cars still make money for the manufacturer, used games do not. Y'know unless you buy a lot of DLC

    1. M Gale

      Re: I don't see why

      Up until ps2, no console supported legacy.

      I think people who remember Sega's 8 bit adapters for their 16 bit consoles (and MasterGear converter for playing Master System games on the Game Gear) will tell you very differently.

      Yes, Sega dumped their hardware division after the Dreamcast did less well than expected. The 16 bit consoles were way before this, and massively more successful.

      1. Charles 9 Silver badge

        Re: I don't see why

        IIRC even Sega backpedaled on backwards compatibility. The Power Base IIRC only worked on the original Genesis. The Model 2 Genesis had different hardware that made things quirky and the Model 3 Genesis had no Z80 in it, meaning no 8-bit support. The MasterGear adapter was pretty basic as the Game Gear was merely a souped-up, shrunk-down Master System). Meanwhile, Saturn games couldn't be run on a Dreamcast.

        1. M Gale

          Re: I don't see why

          The original model one was out for years. The model 2 worked fine, and I'm not even aware there was a model 3 of the 16 bit consoles. After some wikichecking, seems that was limited to North America and Brazil. On this side of the Atlantic, I was playing Master System games on a Megadrive up until way past the Saturn launch.

          Considering the 3rd model didn't even support the DSP used in Virtua Racing, nor the Game Genie that was quite popular over here (or even the 32X and the CD add-on, whatever you want to call it), maybe people on this side of the Atlantic just tolerated less bullshit at the time?

          But still, the original point stands. PS2 was nothing like the first console to support backward compatibility.

  117. Green Nigel
    Trollface

    The Game shop sketch

    'E's not pinin'! 'E's passed on! This console is no more! He has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! 'E's a stiff! Bereft of life, 'e rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed 'im to the perch 'e'd be pushing up the daisies! 'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig! 'E's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisible!! THIS IS AN XBOX ONE!!

  118. fishdog
    Mushroom

    Xbox One = Vista 4 Gaming

    What else is there to say? The Vista approach - lock everything down and charge like a wounded bull while treating your customers like criminals - didnt really go over big with customers, although certain commercial interests loved it. This seems to be deja vu all over again.

    A once-famous company becomes, inevitably, infamous.

    The only really astounding thing here is that Microsoft will follow the same dreary path to oblivion that has been trod by so many companies before them:

    hubris, hubris .. and, oh, look; more hubris!

    (Try reciting that last line in the voice of Sam Gamgee talking about Lembas. It's the only feeble laugh in this otherwise idiotic tale.)

  119. cheeryAllyjspurs

    Unfortunatly everyone loses here, we get stiffed for used games. Reason this is being done? because modded boxes and rampant piracy of games. Endless spiral, consumers rip off the software, software companies in turn protect their investment, now we all lose because of millions/billions lost in piracy. The honest gamers now paying through the nose due to the thieves.

    1. M Gale

      This is just a convenient excuse.

      Don't ever accept bullshit for an answer. Right now the only thing wafting in the breeze from various game publishers is a distinct manure scent.

  120. Anonymous Coward
    Thumb Down

    Think I'll pass

    I don't want cloud.

    It's a gateway drug to software as a service & MS disabled features available on Xbox 360 for local networks before advertising them as "Cloud features". EG: Account recovery.

    Can I disconnect kinect, even throw it in the bin?

    If you really want to see negative feedback on the Xbox One check out their forum.

    They've re-dubbed it as XBone, the new Zune.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Think I'll pass

      XBone = short for XBox ONE....

This topic is closed for new posts.

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