back to article Wikileaker Bradley Manning pleads not guilty to 'aiding the enemy'

After over 1,000 days of solitary confinement in a military prison, Private First Class Bradley Manning finally got his day in court, and he pleaded not guilty to the most serious charge brought against him. Manning, 25, pleaded guilty to 10 charges that he misused and transmitted classified information – which could net him …

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  1. Zaphod.Beeblebrox
    Big Brother

    Define "enemy" - and no, "who we say is the enemy" doesn't count.

    Though I don't agree with what he did, that charge seems over the top (not that I expect any less from the government). I also have to give him credit for admitting guilt on the other charges.

    1. LaeMing Silver badge
      Black Helicopters

      Well, from this case we can conclude that the US defines 'the enemy' as:

      "The whole world".

      1. All names Taken

        Re: Well, from this case we can conclude that the US defines 'the enemy' as:

        Or maybe even: Anyone who disagreed with the decision of an individual or individuals in power

        (It all looks KKK to me)

        1. JCitizen
          Boffin

          Re: Well, from this case we can conclude that the US defines 'the enemy' as:

          Individuals do not possess "powers" under the US Constitution; only the powers we give the states are delineated in the Articles. Individuals possess something much more valuable in that they have rights. And God given ones; if you are of the believer persuasion - as I am.

          1. Local G
            Mushroom

            "Individuals do not possess "powers" under the US Constitution;"

            Of course, the Declaration of Independence trumps the US Constitution and gives to any and all people the inalienable right to separate from their iniquitous countrymen once and forever.

            "When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation."

            No?

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: "Individuals do not possess "powers" under the US Constitution;"

              @Local G: I like your comment, so don't take this the wrong way, but when you use the words "...the inalienable right..." like you have, understand the preamble is not implying rights of any kind, it is implying what you should do yourself, regardless if you have the "right" to or not. To me it implies you should not be held for treason if you are doing what you know to be best, however, good luck with that.

              Also, when referring to "rights", it is good to understand that "rights" are more of privileges, they can be forfeited or taken away (the Patriot Act really shines here). Many will disagree with this, but whenever you read something along the lines of "God given rights", you probably should just replace those words with "Government given privileges".

              1. Local G

                Re: "Individuals do not possess "powers" under the US Constitution;"

                @MyBackDoor: Thanks for pointing out my bad language. Your version is much better.

                Man has no 'inalienable rights', especially not ones of 'life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness'. And the 'rights of man'? They only exist in the halls of Minitrue.'

                "Rights" are more of privileges, they can be forfeited or taken away" Exactly. Some have 'shelf lives' and "expiration days'. Some are term insurance that can be cancelled without notification.

                " It is implying what you should do yourself, regardless if you have the "right" to or not." This is a huge can of worms, MyBackDoor: See me before opening it.

                "Any law which violates the inalienable rights of man is essentially unjust and tyrannical; it is not a law at all." Robespierre.

                This from a disreputable expert on 'the rights of man.'

    2. JimC
      Headmaster

      > who we say is the enemy doesn't count.

      I rather think it does count you know.

      Historically one of the major functions of government has been to decide who is the enemy and to organise fighting wars against them.

      Perhaps you meant something on the lines of "who we *didn't* say was the enemy doesn't count"?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Thumb Up

        Re: > who we say is the enemy doesn't count.

        "Historically one of the major functions of government has been to decide who is the enemy and to organise fighting wars against them."

        Well, that is an "All enemies must die" approach, which will only leave peculiar "friends". But, I hope you mean "...*_hostile_* enemies and to organize...".

        He should be punished accordingly because you are clearly never under the impression that this behavior is non-punishable by death, in fact you know it is. Like anything else for better or worse, when you join in, you also join the rules. He won't get life, but I hope it's up there. I don't want to sound like a hate monger, but we know we can't have this going on in our government, there is places (eg. journalism), but not in government.

        The enemy bit is tiring, to see my government try to save face in this manner is just old hat. The only enemy you could reasonably and logically find would be potential enemies, and what is the head count of Earth currently? Of course, the way my government *recently* behaves, maybe the purpose of the behavior is to create enemies, maybe they want militias to fight here at home. You NEVER know.

    3. Wzrd1

      "I believe that if the general public ... had access to the information ... this could spark a domestic debate as to the role of the military and foreign policy in general,..."

      So, releasing and seeing the information published on informants spurs debate in the US?

      Sorry, but doing that *does* give aid and comfort to the enemy, for the enemy knows who not to trust, if not eliminate.

      The only reason he isn't charged with espionage and mutiny is, his commander was guilty of dereliction of duty. The moment Manning was flagged for deleterious personnel actions, his access to classified information and networks was, by regulation, to be stripped. It wasn't, he copied as much classified data as he could off of said systems and uploaded it to Wikileaks. It wasn't any noble cause he did it for, he did it out of simple vengeance, as he knew he was going to be separated from the military under other than honorable conditions for his insubordination and psychological instability.

      What would be right would be to see to it that his commanding officers, from battalion down, his S2 officer and NCO and his section leader and NCO face punitive measures for dereliction of duty and continuing with Manning's court martial.

      Instead, we'll only get the court martial and lousy leaders will continue on with their careers.

      Damn, but I'm glad I'm retired from the Army. Things like this used to really drive me around the bend.

  2. jestersbro
    Big Brother

    What a wonderful nation the US is.

    This entire court case is fair and reasonable. It is as it should be. After all, this type of courtroom drama is only fitting for a great, fair and noble nation.

    It will stand up as a shining light for all friendly nations to copy.

  3. rcorrect
    Pint

    Grey area

    Not a fan Bradley Manning's actions but if it wasn't for him the world wouldn't know about "those dead bastards" and that in fact many (if not all) of them were innocent civilians. PFC Manning you got me in stuck in a moral dilemma. Then again I am alive and those Iraqi's aren't which adds perspective. Cheer PFC Manning.

  4. Suricou Raven Silver badge

    Military justice.

    Secret hearings, secret evidence, secret everything, no jury, just three judges who know they aren't going anywhere in their own careers if they don't find as the higher ranks decree. Why are we even bothering with this charade? Might as well just throw him into solitary confinement for the rest of his life right now and save the world the drama. No-one is buying this trial as anything but a rather ineffective attempt to claim fairness. The outcome is as good as fixed already.

    They are barely even pretending this is a trial: Ruling in advance that he can only have one witness and that his most effective defenses are off-limits? It's a kangaroo court.

    I suspect the officers in charge are torn between wanting to get this over with and wanting to put on a big show of how effectively any future 'traitors' will be destroyed for putting their own conscience over the reputation of the country.

    1. Don Jefe

      Re: Military justice.

      It is a court martial. He agreed to the terms when he signed up.

      1. Psyx
        Stop

        Re: Military justice.

        "It is a court martial. He agreed to the terms when he signed up."

        He agreed to abide by the MCJ, yes.

        I don't think that says anything about holding people for a year in 'cruel and unusual' conditions before even getting a trail, though.

        1. Wzrd1

          Re: Military justice.

          I served for 27 years, 8 months in the US Army. From day one, I knew that if I divulged classified information, I'd be held in solitary confinement to avoid my further spilling classified information. It is in the annual security clearance briefing.

          He signed the forms, which he was required to read, agreeing to that and he agreed to be held accountable for his actions under the UCMJ when he enlisted, as well as signing his clearance forms.

          The only "cruel and unusual conditions" involved were some NCO's being unprofessional and unprofessionally overreacting intentionally when he made a crack about "if I wanted to hurt myself, I'd hang myself with my underwear". That particular NCO should lose two grades of rank at a minimum and 2/3 pay for three months for such unprofessional behavior.

          As for a year in detention before trial, sorry, federal cases take forever to assemble. They want every fact well documented, all forensics proved correct, the case water tight. Even civilian prosecutions by the federal government can take up to two years to assemble.

          That is why plea bargains are offered repeatedly during that period, to save time and expense and resolve the proceeding in a more timely manner.

          *UCMJ is Universal Code of Military Justice in the US DoD.

          One upside, capital punishment is off the table for Manning. Spending the remainder of his life in prison is still on the table and quite likely. Rightfully so, though his treatment in detention will be considered and the dereliction of duty of his superiors in not voiding his access to classified information while flagged for deleterious personnel actions will quietly be considered.

          Though, from his Battalion commander down to his section leader and their senior NCO's should also face discipline for not following the law and Army regulations in voiding his access as is required by said law and regulations, presenting him his opportunity for vengeance for his upcoming other than honorable discharge for insubordination and mental instability.

          1. bailey86

            Re: Military justice - amd what about the murderers? and what about you?

            So - Mr Do-it-by-the-book.

            What should happen to the mentally sub-normal kids who were flying the Apache which shot and killed innocent civilians and children?

            And if you found out your government was acting illegally and immorally - would you be brave enough to alert the world - or would you carry on obeying orders?

            Manning deserves to be treated as a hero for having the guts to stand up to evil.

            What would you have done?

          2. bailey86

            Re: Military justice - Justice?

            So.

            Torturing a prisoner - 2/3rds pay for three months.

            Revealing evidence of unlawful killings - lifetime of torture by solitary confinement.

            You need to rethink your priorities.

          3. Psyx

            Re: Military justice.

            "I served for 27 years, 8 months in the US Army. From day one, I knew that if I divulged classified information, I'd be held in solitary confinement to avoid my further spilling classified information. It is in the annual security clearance briefing."

            Solitary confinement does not traditionally include stress positions and not being allowed to sit down. Manning was abused as a prisoner prior to trial.

            The people who abused him, turned a blind eye to it, and let the clearly unstable guy have access to classified material in the first place should be doing a combined total of years in jail equal to Manning's. End of story.

      2. Intractable Potsherd Silver badge

        Re: Military justice.

        Don Jefe, you must be a legal positivist - one of the most unthinking forms of humanity. The rules are simply guidance, and there are ALWAYS exceptions. In this case, it has shown that the rules are manifestly unfair, and has proved, as I have said for some time now, that the system of "military justice" (an oxymoron) needs to be ended now, and *all* citizens dealt with by the same laws. Telling soldiers that they protect a system that they do not benefit from is perverse, and leads to exactly this sort of problem.

    2. graeme leggett

      Re: Military justice.

      I don't think anyone is expecting A Few Good Men, but it doesn't necessarily have to turn out to be a Paths To Glory.

  5. StephenH
    Big Brother

    141 witness for the prosecution but only 1 allowed for Manning. His only hope is the Chewbacca Defence

    1. Adam 1 Silver badge

      so what you are saying is

      That they have no hope of pinning him for any of the charges. Got it.

  6. Tom 35 Silver badge

    could have costs lives and hurt the country

    Much worse, he made important people look bad.

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Don't you think that Bradley Manning knew this would be the outcome...

    if outraged Americans didn't storm the Bastille after they read the reports he released.

  8. Geoff Sheridan

    Good to know

    ...that all the soldiers who were exposed killing civilians and children with evident glee were never charged with anything, while the man who exposes massive crimes is tortured and imprisoned without trial for three years, before having the book chucked at him. Good old USA. They make it too easy to see who the criminals really are.

  9. NomNomNom

    if all doors in houses had small windows in them this wouldn't have happened, that is unless he really did shoot his girlfriend deliberately. but if you were going to do that wouldn't you make sure a door wasn't in the way? difficult case.

    1. Magani
      WTF?

      Dear NomNomNom

      Can you please let me know what you're smoking?

  10. bailey86

    The worse the US treats Manning...

    ...the more it proves his point.

    And it's not like the US doesn't have previous - it's locked three men up FOR FORTY YEARS in solitary confinement for daring the request better conditions. And the US state is appealing again to KEEP one of them locked up even after a judge ordered him to be freed for the third time.

    http://www.democracynow.org/2013/2/28/after_40_years_in_solitary_in

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17564805

    http://www.amnestyusa.org/our-work/cases/usa-the-angola-3

    A brutal, hate-filled, barbaric, elitist and seemingly racist government runs the USA - and they have the nerve to criticise other countries like China - it would be laughable if it wasn't so tragic.

    The lunatics have taken over the asylum. I will be praying for Manning - he's young and hopefully can come through this.

    For the true horror of solitary confinement I'll paste some a couple links - they're upsetting reading to any normal human being - just like watching civilians and children being shot by an Apache helicopter and then the murderers being protected by the US state was no doubt upsetting to Manning.

    http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/10/solitary-confinement-shane-bauer

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/jun/19/solitary-confinement-congress-prisons

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/george-will-the-torture-of-solitary-confinement/2013/02/20/ae115d74-7ac9-11e2-9a75-dab0201670da_story.html

    1. Wzrd1

      Re: The worse the US treats Manning...

      For 27 years, I served in the US Army. For 27 years, I had annual security briefings which stated outright, divulge classified information, go into solitary confinement to avoid the risk of further spills of classified information.

      It's also in writing on the NDA form, which one is required to read before signing.

      Military justice is harsh be necessity, for many violations of regulations during time of hostilities can result in the death of soldiers.

      Funny thing about the videos he released, when watched in their entirety, they show weapons in the hands of insurgents who were previously engaged in firefights with US forces.

      Such as an Apache gunship engaging a group of insurgents who had a couple of journalists trying to interview them. An RPG and AK's aplenty are clearly visible in the video.

      Though, one group did their level best to edit out the most clear video showing weapons.

      Now, explain how it was his duty of honor to release the names of every informant and collaborator that helped US forces in Iraq and Afghanistan?

      1. bailey86

        Re: The worse the US treats Manning...

        Read up on the facts. You're obviously determined to hold a particular viewpoint - but reading the facts will show the parts you have wrong.

        And - see my earlier reply to your earlier post. What would you have done? Followed orders?

        1. Matt Bryant Silver badge
          FAIL

          Re: bailey86Re: The worse the US treats Manning...

          "Read up on the facts....." bailey86 it is patently obvious you wouldn't know a fact if it bit you on the arse.

          ".....You're obviously determined to hold a particular viewpoint....." Your viewpoint was spoonfed to you. You mentioned eralier that you were thankful that Manning notified you of "these crimes", yet the chopper attack had been widely reported long before Manning's tantrum. Maybe if you actually went out, looked at news from a variety of sources, and formed YOUR OWN OPINIONS, rather than waiting to be told what was the protest trend-du-jour, then maybe you wouldn't look like such an ill-informed, shrieking, bandwagon-humper.

          1. Local G
            Unhappy

            Re: Oh no, bailey86. Now you've done it.

            You've awakened Smaug the Magnificent. The terrible Worm who will belch fire and smoke on all of us who dare defend Manning the Little. We are double doomed. Woe unto us.

          2. bailey86

            Re: bailey86The worse the US treats Manning...

            I’ll paste up a link for the record. It's so easy to check facts these days.

            http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/01/us/bradley-manning-admits-giving-trove-of-military-data-to-wikileaks.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

            1. Matt Bryant Silver badge
              FAIL

              Re: failure86 Re: bailey86The worse the US treats Manning...

              "..... It's so easy to check facts these days......" You should have asked an adult to read this WaPo article for you, waaaaaay back in 2007, long before A$$nut got busy with his editing tool in 2010:

              http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/12/AR2007071202357.html

              Or maybe this article from the NYT looking at Reuters' efforts to investigate how two of their reporters got killed that day:

              http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D0DEED81E3EF930A25754C0A9619C8B63

              The event was even covered by an American journalist in a book published in 2009. Oh, sorry, I forgot sheeple like you needed to wait for a popstar or a mediawhore like A$$nut to tell you about "the facts"......

              1. bailey86

                Re: failure86 bailey86The worse the US treats Manning...

                When you write things like "sheeple like you needed to wait for a popstar or a mediawhore like A$$nut" you prove our point exactly.

                You are a nasty, abusive, fanatic - the US government seems to be run by nasty, abusive, fanatics - and it is supported by a huge number of nasty, abusive, fanatical Americans.

                There seems to be a particular dumb redneck mentality of "I'm dumb and I wanna drive my dumb truck and fuck anyone who get's in my way - fuck yeah!" which is prevalent in the US. Due to you not having anywhere near enough oil of your own your government has supported the pampered despots who run Saudi Arabia - some other Saudis got angry about your support for the brutal House of Saud for the last sixty years - and hence 9/11 happened.

                Now you're tied up in conflicts to support your oil imports which is destroying your economy. The air conditioning alone is $20 BILLION PER YEAR.

                http://www.npr.org/2011/06/25/137414737/among-the-costs-of-war-20b-in-air-conditioning

                Thanks for the links to the articles you posted - they clearly show how the US military was trying to spin events. The release of the video showed what actually happened - that's why it was so important.

                Let me make it clear - the shooting of the mini-van which was trying to pick up wounded was clearly utterly horrifying to any civilised person. Manning deserves a medal for releasing the videos which shows more clearly than anything the casual, childish brutality of the US military - the complete lack of respect for human life.

                If it makes a white, liberal like me angry then think how it incenses the Iraqis. Does that make sense now? It's about respect which is a huge issue for some nationalities. The problem is that I don't think a nasty, abusive, fanatic like you cares.

                And what are you doing in Iraq!?! Oil. You needed to get troops out of Saudi Arabia due to local opposition, you wanted to remove the inconvenient sanctions imposed on Saddam Hussein. You wanted access to their oil.

                I suggest you need to learn far more about the geopolitics - I suggest you start with 'Blood and Oil' by Michael Klare. As for your morality - I suggest you go to a local church and offer to help those less well off than yourself. As for your manners - that's up to you.

                1. Matt Bryant Silver badge
                  FAIL

                  Re: failey86 Re: failure86 bailey86The worse the US treats Manning...

                  LOL, that childish little rant was very revealing as to your self-delusions. Just for your information, I'm English, not a Yank.

                  ".....There seems to be a particular dumb redneck mentality of "I'm dumb and I wanna drive my dumb truck and fuck anyone who get's in my way - fuck yeah!" which is prevalent in the US......" You obviously have never been to the States, and probably never even met an American. The funniest bit is your own sweeping statement condemns people like Manning that you just tried to hold up as some sort of hero! What a clown!

                  "......some other Saudis got angry about your support for the brutal House of Saud for the last sixty years - and hence 9/11 happened....." Yeah, I think you really need to do a lot more reading into the history of Islamism rather than what is in the back of cereal packets.

                  ".....Let me make it clear - the shooting of the mini-van which was trying to pick up wounded was clearly utterly horrifying to any civilised person......" Let me correct that for you - utterly horrifying for some knob looking for a reason to get shrieky about the Big Bad Yanks. The rest of us that understand awful things happen in war without there having to be some dastardly evil motive involved, well we're just going to laugh at you. As has been pointed out endlessly here on these forums before, the Apache pilots were following the rules of engagement set out by lawyers and politicians, and in the case of the van attack they even asked for permission to engage from a senior officer despite there being more than enough justification to open fire in the first place. People like you that deliberately ignore the facts so you can satisfy your politically driven desire to bleat are simply fooling yourselves. If you actually knew some of the actual background to the events, rather than the heavily-edited version spoonfed to you by A$$nut, then you'd know that. But we've already established you are too much of an intellectual child to do your own research and form your own opinions Enjoy your trendy failure, just don't expect those of us with more than half a clue to applaud your stupidity.

                  1. bailey86

                    Re: failey86 failure86 bailey86The worse the US treats Manning...

                    Wait - are you seriously saying that the US has NOT been supporting the House of Saud since Roosevelt met King Abdulaziz onboard the U.S. Navy cruiser Quincy on February 14th 1945?

                    http://www.susris.com/2011/02/14/today-in-history-king-abdulaziz-and-president-roosevelt-meeting/

                    The problem is this - the US does not support Saudi Arabia as a country - it supports the House of Saud which is the family which has run Saudi Arabia.

                    http://www.hrw.org/middle-eastn-africa/saudi-arabia

                    http://www.hrw.org/world-report-2012/world-report-2012-saudi-arabia

                    It's OK if you're one of the pampered princes - but not if you aren't.

                    As another complication, Saudi Arabia was a long time supporter Wahhabism which is an ultra-conservative form of Islam.

                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabi

                    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/saudi/analyses/wahhabism.html

                    This article explains how the British initially promoted Wahhabism and how the Americans made the same mistake in the 1970's. Leading directly to Osama Bin Laden and the Taliban.

                    http://www.rferl.org/content/Saudi_Arabia_Awakens_To_The_Dangers_Of_Wahhabism/2017767.html

                    And this all goes to show the sort of mess the US has got itself in because rednecks want to drive their SUV's - OK - a simplification - the whole US economy is dependent on imported oil and the plan they came up with was to control the major oil producers using military force. All well documented, and the US administration have at times been quite open about their intentions. Again, read Blood and Oil by Michael Klare - it's full of direct quotes from the US administration and military.

                    Of course, none if this is going to make any difference to a fanatic like yourself - but I put it up for others who may read this thread.

                    1. Matt Bryant Silver badge
                      FAIL

                      Re: even more failey86 Re: failey86 failure86 bailey86The worse the US treats Manning...

                      "......are you seriously saying that the US has NOT been supporting the House of Saud...." Where did I say that? It looks like the reason you are dependent on twits like A$$nut to tell you what to think is you suffer from a real lack of comprehension. Try READING what I posted. Besides, Manning's crimes were commited whilst serving in IRAQ, not Saudi, and the Apache attack that A$$nut massively edited into the "Collateral Murder" lie took place in IRAQ, not Saudi! If you're so clueless you don't even know the difference then it really is asking too much for you to have an opinion of your own.

                      ".....This article explains how the British initially promoted Wahhabism and how the Americans made the same mistake in the 1970's. Leading directly to Osama Bin Laden and the Taliban....." Dear Clueless Child, you have completely failed to realise that the problems of Islam long predate the involvement of either the US or the British Empire in Saudi Arabia. Your failure must be quite embarrassing to your family, I hope they didn't waste too much money on that "education" you slept through. Seriously, you really need to go do a lot more reading of real history books and not just trend-du-jour opinion pieces and blogs.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: The worse the US treats Manning...

        >For 27 years, I served in the US Army. For 27 years, I had annual security briefings which stated outright, divulge classified information, go into solitary confinement to avoid the risk of further spills of classified information.It's also in writing on the NDA form, which one is required to read before signing. Military justice is harsh be necessity, for many violations of regulations during time of hostilities can result in the death of soldiers.

        Wow, so if it is written down you've got no choice then. It is so comfy to have blinders isn't it? It relieves you of the chore of thinking. Or having a moral compass.

        Ever heard of Nuremberg Wzrd1?

        1. Matt Bryant Silver badge
          Stop

          Re: AC Re: The worse the US treats Manning...

          ".....Ever heard of Nuremberg....." I'm betting the only time you heard of Nuremberg was when one of your equally dense buddies said to you "and if you ever run into some guy that actually knows about the military and stuff, just hide your ignorance with this throw away remark about Nuremberg....."

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: The worse the US treats Manning...

      The worse they will treat any future Manning who dares to expose fraud and deceit in the government.

  11. LinkOfHyrule
    WTF?

    Jeeze

    I think you made your point guys! Torturing him mentally aint really going to get you any further with your case against him so give him a window for Christ's sake at the very least!

  12. Stevelane
    Megaphone

    Freedom

    Bradley Manning should be geven the Medal of Freedom because what he had done is shine a search light on criminal activity by the military and the government. The thing is, criminal actions by government and the military weaken us all and put us all at risk. It takes a special kind of courage to blow that whistle and for the criminals in government it endagers them more than anything else. That is why they will lie, torture and even kill to protect themselves from the consequences of exposure. Those criminals do what they do because they think they are following a shining light. They are but it is light straight from the fires of hell! Of course a president who can claim a right to kill citizens without due process and also allow the continued Rovian persecution of Don Siegelman and Paul Minor for non crimes is more likely to give the medal to Bernie Madoff.

    1. Wzrd1

      Re: Freedom

      Sorry, but you missed some important facts.

      Fact one, the Apache gunship video clearly shows an RPG on the shoulder of one insurgent and AK's on the shoulder and in the hands of the majority of the group.

      The journalists sought out those who were engaged in firefights all morning long with US forces.

      Sorry dude, it's called a war. To complain about killing enemy combatants in war essentially rejects the victor of WWII for the bombing of Dresden and Hamburg and essentially say the allies should have surrendered.

      As for citizens being killed in the war, every war in history did so for any who helped the enemy or fought for the enemy. Try learning history for a change.

      Manning also released the names of every collaborator and informant. That in and of itself endangered those people's lives and cut off information that ensured the safety of our forces.

      We can agree that Iraq was a misadventure, to be painting it with pale colors, but once engaged, we were stuck with stabilizing the situation.

  13. Local G
    Joke

    " Manning will get 112 days taken off any sentence he receives."

    I wonder how many days would have been taken off if he had died in custody?

    1. Wzrd1

      Re: " Manning will get 112 days taken off any sentence he receives."

      All of them.

      Now, explain *how* he could have died in custody? Of boredom? He wasn't attacked, struck, tortured or otherwise physically abused.

      The lights stay on in prison. That is how it is. A few NCO's need to lose at least two grades of rank and 2/3 pay for three months for unprofessional and mentally abusive behavior, but still there is nothing that would endanger his life.

      He should get 112 days off of any sentence he will serve, for he's been serving it in detention pending trial as the case was assembled.

      He should also receive a formal apology from the government for the unprofessional behavior and psychological abuse performed by NCO's.

      1. Local G

        Re: " Manning will get 112 days taken off any sentence he receives."

        There ought to be another category for the coroner. "Death while incarcerated" When the army don't need a show trial to give current and future enlistees frightohoea about their "loose lips", all sorts of accidents may befall a prisoner.

        Look at that Australian Israeli who was found hanged in his cell. He was on suicide watch yet he managed "to slip betimes away."

        Did he commit suicide? Depends if you believe Mossad?

        1. Matt Bryant Silver badge
          FAIL

          Re: Local Dupe Re: " Manning will get 112 days taken off any sentence he receives."

          ".....Look at that Australian Israeli who was found hanged in his cell. He was on suicide watch yet he managed "to slip betimes away."......" Try putting your reflexive anti-Semitism aside and asking a very simple question, as asked by investigators all over the World - who had a motive to kill Prisoner X? And the answer is the Mossad and the Israeli government had no reason to kill him, he was securely locked away in isolation and no longer a threat of leaks, so why create the international incident of killing him? Honestly, if it pains you that much to realise the poor guy committed suicide then I suggest you need professional help.

          1. Local G

            Your 2013 pub cost's on me. Show any MB reply to criticism of Israel not a charge of anti-Semitism

            Local G. (my mark)

            1. Matt Bryant Silver badge
              Stop

              Re: Your 2013 pub cost's on me. Show any MB reply to criticism of Israel.....

              ".... Show any MB reply to criticism of Israel not a charge of anti-Semitism...." Whatever. You obviously enjoy wasting time, so why don't you post every post in reply to one criticsing Isreal where I have accused anyone of anti-Semitism and then show that it is a 100% occurence. Don't worry, no-one expects you to prove it as it's patently false. I'll be genearous and say it was just a mistake on your part.

              1. Local G
                Happy

                Re: "You obviously enjoy wasting time."

                Don't belittle yourself.

                It's hardly a waste of time uncovering your logical fallacies and arguing with you is much better than crossword puzzles for my Old Timers syndrome. :-)

          2. Local G
            Facepalm

            "I suggest you need professional help."

            Of course, I need professional help. Why else would I enjoy our little conversations so much?

            MB asks:

            "who had a motive to kill Prisoner X? And the answer is the Mossad and the Israeli government had no reason to kill him, he was securely locked away in isolation and no longer a threat of leaks, so why create the international incident of killing him?"

            "Zygier is understood to have been placed in solitary confinement in February 2010 and hung himself in the shower on December 15, 2010." Solitary confinement was in Unit 15 -- a prison within a prison. (Haaretz)

            "Melbourne-born Zygier, 34 — who hanged himself with a wet sheet from the shower in his cell bathroom, according to an official Israeli investigation partially declassified for publication on Tuesday" So the Israelis, who invented the anal cavity visitation, threw Zygier in to Unit 15 of Ayalon Prison, and then left sheets on his bed and let him shower in a stall without a video monitor.

            If you believe that, MB, you probably believe that at a seder, if you leave the door open, Elijah will come in and drink your Syrah.

            "Almost all of Zygier’s family and friends in Australia have erected a wall of silence around details of the death of the 34-year-old father of two. Brand said his friends in Israel were also “totally in the dark” until two weeks ago."

            Matt Bryant wasn't in the dark until 2 weeks ago. The last time MB, was in the dark was before his mother delivered him. He hasn't been in the dark since.

            Lior Brand said, "Suddenly we heard news he killed himself in jail. I tried to ask questions, Israel is a small place but I didn’t get any answers.” Lior Brand has known Zygier since he lived next door to him on Kibbutz Gazit in the mid-1990s when the Melbournian was a lone soldier in the IDF.

            I guess Brand should have called Bryant for the answers.

            Finally, why did the Israelis kill Zygier?

            Maybe the Australians -- and Zygier had dual citizenship with Israel and Australia -- were demanding to interview him. Who knows what treachery would have come out then?

            1. Matt Bryant Silver badge
              FAIL

              Re: "I suggest you need professional help."

              ".....who invented the anal cavity visitation....." What the fudge is that, you going homophobic as well as anti-Semitic now? If you want to pretend that Israel invented body cavity searches then please provide some proof.

              "....Maybe the Australians -- and Zygier had dual citizenship with Israel and Australia -- were demanding to interview him......" So what? The Israeli court could happily tell them to go get stuffed. Joining the IDF meant his joint-citizenship became instantly moot, as you should know but are desperately trying to ignore so you can bleat some rediculous conspiracy theory.

              1. Local G
                Big Brother

                What the fudge is that, you going homophobic as well as anti-Semitic now?

                No, I like anal cavity visitations as much as anybody else here. You included.

                I was in and out of Ben Gurion Airport in 1970 and, while I must not have fit the profile for ACV, I witnessed the official actions of the Israeli government controlling the arrival and departure of tourists and other travelers. I said to myself when I left Israel: "If this dreadful effrontery is here now, Anal Cavity Visitations cannot be far behind."

                What year did you visit Israel?

                Of course, there were no metal detectors then. The early metal detectors were nothing more than private cubicals where EVERYONE boarding a plane had to go, your luggage open and splayed out before an examiner. At that point anything could happen, Including shaggery, as my examiner was, to quote Joris Huysmans, "a handsome Jewess'.

                "So what? The Israeli court could happily tell them (the Australian Government) to go get stuffed."

                Good idea, Bryant. Then Israel would only have to tell Burkina Faso, Kiribati, Nauru, and Saint Kitts and Nevis to get stuffed and they will have told the whole world to get stuffed.

                "Joining the IDF meant his joint-citizenship became instantly moot..."

                And he became a citizen of Unit 15, a prison within Alayon Prison and lost all of his human rights including the right of speaking to a government official of the country in which he was born. Even Yulia Tymoshenko has more rights than that.

                1. Matt Bryant Silver badge
                  Facepalm

                  Re: Local Dupe Re: What the fudge is that, you going homophobic as well as anti-Semitic now?

                  ".....What year did you visit Israel?....." I've made several visits, but the most fun when it came to security was in June 1982, just after the IDF had swanned across the border into the Lebanon to kick the PLO artillery out of the range of northern Israel. I've seen plenty of security, I even moaned after the liquid bomb scare meant UK airport security went silly, but Lod airport was tighter than Fort Knox that day! Mind you, after the massacre in 1972, you can guess why they'd be a bit concerned. But I still enjoyed my visit and I hope you enjoyed yours.

                  The rest of your post is just the usual bleating and evasions.

                  1. Local G
                    Happy

                    Re: Local Dupe What the fudge is that, you going homophobic as well as anti-Semitic now?

                    June 1982 was a lovely time to visit the Levant. They say the Litani River is very beautiful then. The best place to visit for camp followers. Like skiing in Switzerland.

          3. Local G
            Boffin

            Re: Matt Bryant. Look who else "slipped betimes away"

            "Goering had escaped the hangman's noose, his death had to be officially recognized:

            The gymnasium doors opened again and guards entered carrying Goering's body on a stretcher.

            He had succeeded in wrecking plans of the Allied Control Council to have him lead the parade of condemned Nazi chieftains to their death. But the council's representatives were determined that Goering at least would take his place as a dead man beneath the shadow of the scaffold. The guards carrying the stretcher set it down between the first and second gallows. Goering's big bare feet stuck out from under the bottom end of a khaki-colored United States Army blanket. One blue-silk-clad arm was hanging over the side.

            The colonel in charge of the proceedings ordered the blanket removed so that witnesses and Allied correspondents could see for themselves that Goering was definitely dead. The Army did not want any legend to develop that Goering had managed to escape. As the blanket came off it revealed Goering clad in black silk pajamas with a blue jacket shirt over them, and this was soaking wet, apparently the result of efforts by prison doctors to revive him. The face of this twentieth-century freebooting political racketeer was still contorted with the pain of his last agonizing moments and his final gesture of defiance. They covered him up quickly, and this Nazi warlord, who like a character out of the days of the Borgias, had wallowed in blood and beauty, passed behind a canvas curtain into the black pages of history."

            http://archive.adl.org/education/dimensions_19/section2/executions.asp

            "the parade of condemned Nazi chieftains to their death."

            Here was another mistake at Nuremberg. A prade of condemned Nazis, but NO MUSIC. You can't have a parade without music.

            Brunhilde's Immolation from Gotterdammerung would be too trite. No, Bedřich Smetana's Die Moldau, from his symphonic poem, Má vlast. Every Zionist would have known that two years later, in 1948, Hatikvah, which used Smetana's music, would become the unofficial national anthem of Israel.

            The same way every Zionist knows that Iran is going to use its nuclear weapons on Israel two years from now, if not sooner.

            1. Matt Bryant Silver badge
              Facepalm

              Re: Re: Matt Bryant. Look who else "slipped betimes away"

              Nurse, please check that Local Dupe is taking his meds, he's wandering waaaaaay off topic again.

              Manning is not going to be hung or shot or otherwise executed, and now he's got a taste for the fawning bleats of the sheeple he's going to be too busy fantasising about appearing on Oprah to think of suicide. Well, at least for the next year or to, but when he realises he's looking at another forty-eight years after that he might start tying his sheets into a noose. I wonder which of his legal team wrote his thirty-odd page diatribe for him? Maybe A$$nut did.

          4. Psyx
            Stop

            Re: Local Dupe " Manning will get 112 days taken off any sentence he receives."

            "Try putting your reflexive anti-Semitism"

            Condemnation of the Mossad, Israel, or Israelis is NOT anti-Semitism, Matt. A country is not fu**ing immune from criticism just because of a single hyphenated word.

            </pet peeve>

            1. Matt Bryant Silver badge
              FAIL

              Re: Re: Local Dupe " Manning will get 112 days taken off any sentence he receives."

              ".....Condemnation of the Mossad, Israel, or Israelis is NOT anti-Semitism, Matt. A country is not fu**ing immune from criticism just because of a single hyphenated word....." Oh, yeah, you're right - it's only anti-Semitism when you put Jews in ovens, right?

              1. Local G
                Happy

                Re: Local Dupe " Manning will get 112 days taken off any sentence he receives."

                Instead of framing the argument as "What constitutes anti-Semitism?" Let's look at "What do Israel, American Jewry and their flying monkeys consider anti-Semitism to be?"

                Is there a difference between real, objective anti-Semitism and what the targets of anti-Semitism, consider anti-Semitism to be.

                You'll find them two different kettles of fish.

                A plaintiff in court doesn't decide what the law is and tell the judge how to precede. The injury must injure every ethnic group, not just one.

                1. Matt Bryant Silver badge
                  FAIL

                  Re: Local Dupe Re: Local Dupe " Manning will get 112 days taken off any.....

                  Whatever, you're just following your usual debating "tactics" - can't win the argument so segway off into some other piece of junk you think you stand a better chance in. Just admit it, Manning is up the creek without a paddle, and his only chance of leniency now is to spill the beans on how A$$nut coached him and encouraged his little tantrum leaking.

                  1. Local G
                    Happy

                    Re: Local Dupe Local Dupe " Manning will get 112 days taken off any.....

                    Move along, nothing to see here.

                    You are Ab Pos, 100% right about this one, Matt. "Manning is up the creek without a paddle" Just as he was the day he was taken into custody. Maybe next time you could be right about something a little more difficult than this.

                    "his only chance of leniency now is to spill the beans on how A$$nut coached him and encouraged his little tantrum leaking"

                    I can't admit you're right about this. It appears less a case of your heralded intuition, than it does wishful thinking, given your Catonic antipathy for Assange.

                    1. Matt Bryant Silver badge
                      Facepalm

                      Re: Re: Local Dupe Local Dupe " Manning will get 112 days taken off any.....

                      "......I can't admit you're right about this....." Dupe, denial is not a river in Egypt, mmkay? The fact that Manning was so desperate as to attempt a deal with the lesser charges shows his team are not confident they can beat the aiding-the-enemy rap. Manning is so screwed, it seems the only people that don't realise that are him and you.

                      1. Local G
                        Happy

                        It's too bad you don't know as much about Greek mythology, as you do about Israeli mythology.

                        If you did, you'd know that you are the incarnation of he beautiful nymph, Echo, who loved to hear her own voice (fits you to a tee). Hera (Mrs Zeus) was so annoyed at her, she punished the talkative Echo by taking away her voice, except in foolish repetition of another's (the ADL) shouted words. Thus, all Echo could do was repeat the voice of another.

                        Echo fell in love with a vain youth named Narcissus. I suppose in this narration that would be Abe Foxman

                        1. Matt Bryant Silver badge
                          FAIL

                          Re: It's too bad you don't know as much about Greek mythology......

                          Well, then ain't it lucky for me that you don't need to have an encyclopaedic knowledge of Greek mythology to be able to spot prejudice. And if anyone is stuck in echo mode, I think we have shown many times your lack of originality, be it regarding Dreyfus or your political "ideals".

                          1. This post has been deleted by its author

                          2. Local G
                            Unhappy

                            YIKES!

                            Wow, Matt. What a devastating comeback. I'm speechless. And mortified.

                            Off topic for a sec. Going to the gun show at the Ventura County Fairgrounds this week-end. Will try to sell my PPKs. What do you think about the Taurus pistols that fire shotgun shells? Do you know anything about them?

                            Supposedly they have quite a kick-back, but if I can handle your replies to my posts, I should be able to handle the recoil.

                            1. Matt Bryant Silver badge
                              Boffin

                              Re: YIKES!

                              "...... I'm speechless....." Hmmm, why do I sense that is highly unlikely.

                              ".....Will try to sell my PPKs....." Why? It's quite reasonable as a personal defence weapon. Besides, isn't it SoCal law that all private gun sales have to go via dealer, and don't you have to have registered the gun beforehand?

                              ".....What do you think about the Taurus pistols that fire shotgun shells?....." If you mean the Taurus Judge I'd say don't bother. I haven't fired it but i've read a few reviews (out if curiosity - shotgun pistols have a bad history). From the short barrel version the spread of shot at ten feet can be two feet wide - you would probably hit an intruder with a first shot, but there is too much chance of those pellets not dealing a disabling wound, and too much chance of the intruder returning fire whilst you're still choking on all the powdersmoke that leaks out of the Judge's cylinder. The longer barrel is only slightly better, much heavier, and still not easy to aim and fire. You'd be better off getting a proper, stocked shotgun like a Mossberg 500 - much easier to aim - and firing proper 12-gauge shells. I'm told just the sound of a pump-action is enough to scare many intruders away!

                              1. Local G
                                Happy

                                Matt, Is this joke anti-Semitic?

                                The Wise Rabbi

                                The only cow in a small village in Ukraine stopped giving milk.The residents of the village did some research and found that they could buy a cow from Kiev for 2,000 rubles or one from Minsk for 500rubles.Being frugal, they bought the cow from Minsk. The cow was wonderful.It produced lots of milk all the time and the people were amazed and very happy.They decided to acquire a bull to mate with the cow andproduce more cows like it. That way, they would never have to worry about the milk supply again.They bought a bull and put it in the pasture with their beloved cow.However, whenever the bull came close to the cow, the cow would move away. No matter what approach the bull tried, the cow would moveawayfrom the bull and he could not succeed in his quest. The people were very upset and decided to ask their wise Rabbi what to do.They told the Rabbi that "Whenever the bull approaches our cow, she moves away. If he approaches from the back, she moves forward. When he approaches her from the front, she backs off. If he approaches from the side, she just turns and walks away."The Rabbi pondered this for a while and asked, "Did you buy this cow from Minsk?" The people were amazed and dumbfounded since they had never mentioned where they had gotten the cow from."You are truly a wise Rabbi," they said. "How did you know we got the cow from Minsk?" The Rabbi answered, "My wife is from Minsk."

                                1. Matt Bryant Silver badge
                                  Facepalm

                                  Re: Matt, Is this joke anti-Semitic?

                                  Not particularly, seeing as you could substitute the Jewish element for Christian, etc. I also note it has nothing to do with the topic of the thread.....

                                  In the meantime, what you should be worrying about (as a rabid A$$nut lover) is that Manning's attempt to get his trial closed by pleading guilty to a batch of the "lesser" charges was done as a "naked guilty plea" - an acknowledgement that no deal had been done with the prosecution to limit the sentencing tied to that plea. For any legal defence, this is a most depserate strategem. Potentially, Manning is looking at twenty years just for the charges he has already plead guiltily to, a plea that the judge has accepted. The fact there was no deal with the prosecution just underlines how desperate Manning's team are to avoid a trial against the remaining charges - that means the prosecution not only wants to go for all the charges but is confident it will win, despite any media attention. They are not worried about the exposure of any new secrets, they are not worried about "embarrassment" of the administration, they are going to drop the hammer on Manning.

                                  That makes it more likely that Manning's only means of avoiding fifty years in prison is going to be to cut a deal on the prosecution's terms and provide testimony against A$$nut. Even worse for you is the news the judge has accepted Manning's plea but still decided to go to trial over the remaining charges, meaning Manning's attempt to avoid further charges has failed. If Manning was up the creek without a paddle before, he now also has a sinking canoe.

                                  On a more simplistic note, by pleading guilty to intentionally causing intelligence information to be published on the Internet, he is now not only officially a criminal but also a confirmed traitor. Even in the very unlikely event that he manages to not be convicted of aiding the enemy, he will be going to prison and he will be then dishonourably discharged - no pension for him. I hope Oprah pays well because Manning will need it.

                                  1. Local G
                                    Boffin

                                    Military (UCMJ) Pretrial Agreements (plea bargains)

                                    Written by: Philip Douglas Cave PRO Military Law Attorney

                                    Military pretrial agreements can be useful for damage control on a court-martial sentence. There are some unusual elements to a military pretrial agreement (PTA) compared to civilian plea bargains.

                                    1

                                    What is a pretrial agreement (PTA)

                                    A military PTA consists of two basics Parts: Part I sets out the agreement on what charges the accused will plead guilty to, and other conditions. Part II sets out the sentence cap. The separation of the two parts is very important because of how a military PTA is used at trial. The military judge knows there's a PTA, but he does not know what is contained in Part II until after he announces the sentence he will give. (Note: The military has a unitary sentence -- that is, one potential maximum for all of the offenses joined together. The military does not adjudge a range of confinement, such as 10 to 15 years, as many civilian courts do.)

                                    2

                                    How is the PTA used

                                    Once an agreement is reached the accused appears in court. At that time the accused enters pleas in accordance with the PTA. Once that is done there are two primary steps the military judge has to take before accepting pleas of guilt: ensure a voluntary waiver of constitutional rights, and that the plea is "provident."

                                    3

                                    Waiver of Rights

                                    In order for a person to validly plead guilty in court-martial the accused must knowingly and voluntarily waive the right to silence, a trial of the facts, and the requirement for guilt to be proven beyond reasonable doubt. The military judge will tell an accused that a guilty plea is considered the strongest form of proof. Assuming the accused properly waives the rights the military judge goes to the next stage which is to examine the providency of the plea.

                                    4

                                    Providency

                                    Under military law the military judge has to conduct a discussion with an accused who is pleading guilty to determine the voluntariness of the plea, that there is a factual basis for the plea, and that the accused is willingly admitting he did all of the facts alleged. The accused is placed under oath. The military judge informs the accused of the legal elements of the crime the prosecution would have to prove beyond reasonable doubt. The military judge then engages in a question and answer session with the accused to get the facts from the accused as to why he is guilty of the offenses charged.

                                    5

                                    The plea is accepted

                                    Assuming the accused gets through the providence inquiry and the military judge accepts the plea of guilty -- now what. The next step is the sentencing hearing. At this hearing the prosecution presents potential aggravating evidence and the accused can present evidence in extenuation and mitigation and as to rehabilitative potential. The military judge then decides on the sentence and announces that in open court. AND HERE is the essential difference not found in any other U. S. judicial system. You recollect there are two parts to the agreement. The second part contains the sentence limits. Remember the military judge DOES NOT KNOW what that part says. Only after the judge announces the sentence does he then look at Part II of the PTA.

                                    6

                                    What's the sentence

                                    Only after the judge announces the sentence does he then look at Part II of the PTA. At that point the accused gets the lesser of the two. So, some examples. 1. Judge announces five years confinement. The PTA sentence cap limits confinement to six years. The sentence is five years. 2. Judge announces five years confinement. The PTA sentence cap limits confinement to four years. The sentence is four years. The one year is suspended usually for a period of one year.

                                    ONLY AFTER THE JUDGE ANNOUNCES THE SENTENCE DOES HE THEN LOOK AT PART II OF THE PTA.

                                    THE ACCUSED GETS THE LESSER OF THE TWO SENTENCES.

                                    You better revise your RANT. Also I am no more in love today with Assange than you were in love with Jimmy Savile in the good old days. I'll take the Assange's cigar out of my mouth, if you take Savile's out of yours.

                                    I apologize if I touched a nerve and Mrs Bryant is from Minsk.

                                    The unbelievable Ventura County Gun Show will have ti wait. I'll only say that gun shows are the most ginormous loop holes ever. You can literally rap your legs around Big Bertha and drive through them.

                                    Please turn your spell check back on. :-)

                                    1. Matt Bryant Silver badge
                                      FAIL

                                      Re: Military (UCMJ) Pretrial Agreements (plea bargains)

                                      Mr Cave is largely correct in his definition of a PTA, but wrong as there is no PTA in Manning's case, this is still a "naked" plea. Manning did not agree with the prosecution which charges he would please guilty to in return for a PTA, his team instead tried pleading guilty to the lesser charges in the hope further charges would be dismissed or dropped. The only limitation the Convening Authority (who would actually have to agree a PTA, not just the prosecuting team) have stated is that the death sentence will not be applied - Manning has no other limitations on the books. Mr Cave is just supplying more wishful thinking for the sheeple, and you're re-bleating wihtout understanding the actual matter.

                                      And joking about Jimmy Saville? OK, I guess having your blindfold tweaked is painful for someone that has willingly lived in the dark for so long, but jokes about paedophiles should be below even you.

                                      1. Local G
                                        Meh

                                        "Bradley Manning trial delayed until June...."

                                        "Colonel Denise Lind, the judge presiding over Manning's court martial, has rescheduled the trial for June to allow extra time to deal with classified information."

                                        The trial has not begun. Are Manning's lawyers discussing a PTA with the prosecutors now? Is that's why the trial was rescheduled. To give both sides time to agree to a PTA and avoid a court martial the government doesn't want all over the media for days on end. Can you see that the Government might want to avoid a trial for Manning?

                                        " but jokes about paedophiles should be below even you." When I get tired of hearing the same pathetic line over and over again, i suppose nothing is below me. I want something to stop, and it stops. Like Truman and the war in the Pacific.

                                        1. Matt Bryant Silver badge
                                          Stop

                                          Re: "Bradley Manning trial delayed until June...."

                                          ".....The trial has not begun....." <Sigh> yes, that rustling sound is Local Dupe grasping at straws. The main event has not started, the actual trial started as early as Manning entering his original plea of not guilty.

                                          ".....Are Manning's lawyers discussing a PTA with the prosecutors now?....." If they are then the prosecutors have the upper hand and you know what they will ask for - A$$nut on a plate!

                                          ".....and avoid a court martial the government doesn't want all over the media for days on end....." Obambi has no reason to want to avoid a court martial - Manning has no new secrets to threaten to leak; by his own statement he has admitted he knew what he was doing was wrong and against regulations; and Manning's thirty-five page "justification" has blown his chances of pleading temporary insanity. Obambi is onto a winner - he gets to look tough on leakers, and gets to nail A$$nut. Obambi is into his second term so he doesn't have to worry about upsetting the sheeple and losing votes. There is no reason for the authorities to want to stop the trial, indeed they might be glad of the media coverage to take attention off the sequester mess.

                                          1. Local G
                                            FAIL

                                            Re: "Bradley Manning trial delayed until June...."

                                            The only straw I'm grasping at is the one you use to snort cocaine. In case there's a smidgen left to inform me where your mind goes when it departs from reality. For example,

                                            " The main event has not started, the actual trial started as early as Manning entering his original plea of not guilty."

                                            Matt Bryant, a box of pop corn between his legs and a can of Coors Lite in his hand, thinks that the conference between the referee and the captains of the opposing teams is part of the game. When the camera is on the captain of the team he hates, the pop corn spills, beer is spat at the tv and Mrs B gathers her bairns and rushes them out of the house.

                                            "then the prosecutors have the upper hand" D'UH. Did you ever hear of a prosecutor who didn't have the upper hand? Does the name Carmen Ortiz mean nothing to you?

                                            "Obambi is into his second term so he doesn't have to worry about upsetting the sheeple." Obambi already has upset the sheeple, dude. Just ask me. I voted for him twice and now I hate his black ass.

                                            "they might be glad of the media coverage to take attention off the sequester mess." You got this one mixed up. The sequester can't last forever; certainly not until the elections in 2014. Once the sequester is over, the sheeple will wake up to the fact that the Obambi administration is the slave of corporate America and that the Pentagon is dictating foreign policy and strategic positioning.

                                            1. Matt Bryant Silver badge
                                              Happy

                                              Re: Local Dupe Re: "Bradley Manning trial delayed until June...."

                                              Sorry, were you trying to make a point? All that last post came across as was "shriek, whine, gnashing of teeth, bleat, bleat".

                                              "......thinks that the conference between the referee and the captains of the opposing teams is part of the game....." So, you think Manning's original declining to enter a plea was made just for the fun of it? The trial has long since started, some would say at the PIA (second stage of the arraignment) when the final list of charges were set. Please do keep up.

                                              ".....Did you ever hear of a prosecutor who didn't have the upper hand?....." Plenty of cases have gone to court only for an acquittal. Oh, sorry, I suppose the idea of a fair legal system messes with your desire to call it all a big, rigged conspiracy, the White House under the control of "corprorate America", etc., etc.

                                              "........Does the name Carmen Ortiz mean nothing to you?......" There you go again, rattling off into fantasyland about some completely different case. If Schwarz had been a lot smarter he too could have won his case or even avoided going to trial at all (if he'd been REAL smart he could have not deliberately committed piracy to "prove a point").

                                              ".....the Obambi administration is the slave of corporate America and that the Pentagon is dictating foreign policy and strategic positioning....." Ah, there we go, the expected bleating about "corporate America", right on cue! I bet you have "Margin Call" on DVD and spend your days alternating watching it and footage of "The Storming Of The Winter Palace". So funny to hear the sheeple that voted for the great Not-White Hope Obambi now bleating against him!

                                              1. Local G
                                                Happy

                                                Re: Local Dupe "Bradley Manning trial delayed until June...."

                                                The only point worth making here is the pointy point known by all as your head. All other points melt and thaw in comparison to the acute cone atop your neck. If you ever make it from copy boy to editor (doubtful), you will be able to spike stories just by pulling them firmly down over the top of your head.

                                                Hold the Press! Matt Bryant, the greatest English legal mind since William Blackstone, has declared that the pre-trial or preliminary phase of a trial is no different than the trial itself. Motions that can be made in the early phases can be made in the later ones. If it is a jury trial, the jury is present for the pre-trial goings-on.

                                                "the idea of a fair legal system messes with your desire to call it all a big, rigged conspiracy."

                                                When I was 5, I used to believe in Santa Claus. Apparently Matt still does.

                                                "There you go again, rattling off into fantasyland about some completely different case."

                                                For the record, Matt follows this severe rebuke with 38 words about "the completely different case."

                                                Sorry to disappoint, Matt, but I was here before 'planned obsolesce.' Mental midgets like you think things have gotten better. Wrong.

                                                If you want to see something good on Netflix (streaming) look for "The Prince of Drones." Nothing but videos of drones killing civilians. Or as you call it: 'collateral damage.' Perfect for crisps and gin and tonic.

                                                If Shakespeare were alive today I think he probably change a line in Hamlet's famous speech, 'To be or not to be' -- the one that goes "Who would fardels bear...",

                                                To 'Who would spend 5 minutes in the Queen's closet listening to the incoherent babble of Matthew Bryant?"

                                                1. Matt Bryant Silver badge
                                                  FAIL

                                                  Re: Local Dupe "Bradley Manning trial delayed until June...."

                                                  "The only point worth making here is the pointy point known by all as your head....." So you're confirming that you don't actually have a point to make but you just can't stop bleating? This is my surprised face, honest.

                                                  ".....If it is a jury trial, the jury is present for the pre-trial goings-on....." You really need to go read up on the differences between a court martial and civil proceedings. Add it to your remedial reading list.

                                                  ".....When I was 5, I used to believe in Santa Claus....." Don't tell me, then the commissar told you all religion was a means of oppressing the proletariat, and therefore Santa Claus was just a capitalist conspiracy, hatched by the Eeeeeeevvuuuullll Joooooooos to make you buy more decadent consumer goods, right?

                                                  ".....Nothing but videos of drones killing civilians. Or as you call it: 'collateral damage.'....." Yes, because no drone attack has ever killed a militant or terrorist hiding amongst civilians, right? And no "innocent" civilian has ever supplied food, shelter or other support to uniformed or non-uniformed combatants, right? Care to compare to the number of civilians killed by "legal" and manual bombing during WW2? Of course not - that comparison would simply highlight the immense stupidity of your bleating. But then a comparison would also help you in deviating from the topic of the thread. Again.

                                                  1. Local G
                                                    Happy

                                                    Re: Local Dupe "Bradley Manning trial delayed until June...."

                                                    "you're confirming that you don't actually have a point to make..."

                                                    Nope! Same old point. If, to put it in your insane language, the trial part of the trial has not begun, the defense lawyers and the prosecution are free to amend the PTA. The negotiations between the two sides can continue until the judge gavels the trial part of the trial to order.

                                                    "You really need to go read up on the differences between a court martial and civil proceedings."

                                                    Send me the link or shut up.

                                                    "hatched by the Eeeeeeevvuuuullll Joooooooos"

                                                    How the fuck did you drag the Eeeeeeevvuuuullll Joooooooos into this thread?

                                                    "because no drone attack has ever killed a militant or terrorist hiding amongst civilians,"

                                                    Hey, why don't we bring back mustard gas? That doesn't separate from the chaff, either.

                                                    I like you, Matt Bryant, And I am anxiously awaiting that link to the procedure of sitting a jury at courts martial

              2. Psyx
                FAIL

                Re: Local Dupe " Manning will get 112 days taken off any sentence he receives."

                "Oh, yeah, you're right - it's only anti-Semitism when you put Jews in ovens, right?"

                Don't be so wilfully stupid. Again. It's pathetic.

                Being of a specific religion does not render one immune to criticism. Well-grounded criticism isn't anti-Semitic, no more than saying Blair is a shi*t-head and that NATO soldiers have committed their share of war-crimes is 'anti-Christian'. Israel as a nation regularly utilises strategies which are morally disgusting, and pointing it out is no reflection on the Jewish religion as a whole.

                1. Matt Bryant Silver badge
                  FAIL

                  Re: Local Dupe " Manning will get 112 days taken off any sentence he receives."

                  "......Don't be so wilfully stupid......" Oh, puh-lease, that pretence is comic! If it was only a matter of innocent criticism then your critical eye would be directed equally at all, but when you only look for faults in just one group of people, that is because you are prejudiced against that group of people. Deny it all you like, but you are blatantly prejudiced against Israel, and it is obvious to others why even if you are living in (more) denial.

  14. Dennis Wilson
    Unhappy

    A guess?

    Whatever happens i do know two things for certain, he will be found guilty, and the torture he endured in the marine prison will not be an issue in court either.

    1. Wzrd1

      Re: A guess?

      Really? Torture? So, he was waterboarded?

      He was placed in stress positions?

      He was racked?

      There was psychological abuse, true. Several NCO's were extremely unprofessional in the extreme. But, there was no torture involved, if there was, he'd have plead guilty on day one to all charges.

      That said, if I learned that one of my NCO's had done such things to a prisoner, they'd be short two grades of rank and 2/3 pay for three months at a minimum. I'd have to decide, case by case if I'd recommend separation from the military under other than honorable conditions.

      But, courts do not decide a criminal case based upon abuses by prison guards. They consider the crime, evidence and defense. Only in sentencing can any abuses during detention be considered.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: A guess?

        "But, there was no torture involved"

        Since when was torture only considered to be a physical measure?

  15. Velv Silver badge
    Coat

    J.A.G.

    But what we really need to know is who is defending?

    Is it Captain Harmon Rabb Jnr or is it Lieutenant Colonel Sarah MacKenzie?

    I think I'd prefer Mac!

  16. Chris007
    Black Helicopters

    Hello, kangaroo court and pre-judged case?

    "By contrast, presiding judge Colonel Denise Lind ruled yesterday that Manning could have only *** one *** witness: William Leonard of the National Archives and Records Administration. He will also not be allowed to present any evidence accusing the US government of excessive secrecy."

    yet the govt can have 141 - of course we are the land of the free and due process (and I don't want to hear any "it's a military court" crap)

    1. Wzrd1

      Re: Hello, kangaroo court and pre-judged case?

      Any other witness for his defense would already be present. Manning himself is there, his commanding officer will be there. Others who worked with him will be there.

      As well as every investigator, presenting-gasp- evidence, even stateside evidence from DISA network logs.

      Oh, sorry. I forgot, truth is inconvenient, so we'll ignore it.

      For, with all involved with him at the time, who else can he call as a witness? The retired pope?

  17. ukgnome
    Pint

    Whistle blowing

    Should be applauded when it proves a point, or improves things for the company involved.

    This guy should be applauded not imprisoned, he showed the world what a bunch of cucking funts the american military are.

    Yeah, lets all laugh and be jolly whilst we blow the crap out of people that may or may not be some sort of enemy combatant.

    <---a pint? hell yeah, manning deserves one.

    1. Wzrd1

      Re: Whistle blowing

      "Yeah, lets all laugh and be jolly whilst we blow the crap out of people that may or may not be some sort of enemy combatant."

      Do enlighten us all, how are a group of men with AK's and an RPG "may or may not be some sort of enemy combatant"? Perhaps you think they were on a hunting expedition with an RPG? Was it T-Rex season?

      Let me guess, you watched the edited video, rather than the full one that was released. The one where all shots showing weapons were cut out, save a sparse few.

      Guess what those "may or may not be some sort of enemy combatant" were doing all morning? Shooting at US soldiers.

      Then, a couple of idiot journalists decided to walk into the middle of the fighting, walk up and film those "may or may not be enemy combatants" with that RPG and those AK's.

      Meanwhile, you ignore the hell out of the lists of informants he also released, for it undermines your concept of him being an honorable whistleblower. You ignore the fact that he was already pending separation from the military under other than honorable conditions for insubordination and mental instability.

      Hell, you ignore anything inconvenient.

      1. ukgnome
        Facepalm

        @Wzrd1 Team America F##k Yeah!

        Hmm - in one particular jolly outing those good ol' boys can be heard chuckling as they blow up some German journalists.

        In America a group of men with AK's can be considered hunters, or don't you read the news.

        Let me guess, you're one of those good ol' apple pie types that think the NRA is a great organisation.

        Guess what those ....blah blah blah, I wasn't there so I can't comment - hence they may or may not of been an enemy combatant.

        Idiot journalists? Yeah, they speak highly of you. Oh wait, no they fucking don't they were gunned down by laughing american forces.

        I am happy that you have expressed an opinion, even if it is incorrect.

  18. mickey mouse the fith

    "In America a group of men with AK's can be considered hunters"

    Dont think many hunters shoot deer with rpg`s though. Just sayin....

    Regardless of the morals of it all, Manning put U.S operatives and their families at risk, he`s no hero, he`s a liability who betrayed his country and those who helped it. I have no sympathy for traitors like that at all tbh.

  19. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Fuck them all - this is a TOTAL farce.

    6 months before 9/11 the CEO's of the US oil companies all sat down with Ge3orge W Bush, making plans to invade Iraq and do an oil grab.

    When 9/11 happened, Condaleeza Rice said, "This is our excuse" (to invade Iraq)

    9/11 happened when Ben Laddin, stuck it up the Americans for sticking their military bases in Saudi Arabia.

    Saddam Hussain was ex CIA, and the CIA / US government (corporate $$$ puppet) and they could not assinate him, topple his regime etc., so they invaded, painted him up as a war criminal and hung him.....

    For the US to invade Afghanistan - it has HUGE oil fields, lots of special minerals, and the biggest opium crops in the world - and the drug trade is all HUGE $$$$$$$

    It's all the global Bankster Gangster scam.....

    I mean FUCK ME - what a bullshit

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smedley_Butler

    Smedley Darlington Butler[1] (July 30, 1881 – June 21, 1940) was a Major General in the U.S. Marine Corps, an outspoken critic of U.S. military adventurism, and at the time of his death the most decorated Marine in U.S. history. During his 34-year career as a Marine, he participated in military actions in the Philippines, China, in Central America and the Caribbean during the Banana Wars, and France in World War I.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3_EXqJ8f-0

    http://americanbuilt.us/patriots/smedley-butler.shtml

    "Gangster for Capitalism"

    In 1934, Butler came forward and reported to the U.S. Congress that a group of wealthy pro-Fascist industrialists had been plotting to overthrow the government of President Franklin D. Roosevelt in a military coup. Even though the McCormack-Dickstein Committee (precursor to the House Un-American Activities Committee) corroborated most of the specifics of his testimony, no further action was taken.

    Butler was known for his outspoken lectures against war profiteering and what he viewed as nascent fascism in the United States. During the 1930s, he gave many such speeches to pacifist groups. Between 1935 and 1937, he served as a spokesman for the American League Against War and Fascism (which some considered communist-dominated).

    In his 1935 book, War Is a Racket, Butler presented an exposé and trenchant condemnation of the profit motive behind warfare. His views on the subject are well summarized in the following passage from a 1935 issue of "the non-Marxist, socialist" magazine, Common Sense – one of Butler's most widely quoted statements:

    "I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents."

    Then go onto reading this:

    "WAR IS A RACKET"

    by General Smedley Butler

    This guy should be shot... "Ashden Fein" - he's about typical of what a pack of shit heads the legal profession is composed of...... Standing there in the proceedings, with his hand out for the dirty money, for dirty deals.

    Stand up and say, "I refuse to do this and I and every other legally trained person in the country also refuse to do this." No fucking way. He is just shit.

    "Ashden Fein, the leading prosecution counsel, said that he planned to call 141 witnesses to testify against Manning, including 15 who would demonstrate that he has directly harmed US national interests. Due to the sensitive nature of the evidence under discussion, 33 of the witnesses will give their evidence in closed court."

    What sensitive information?

    Corporation USA and it's bankster gangsters and the military industrial complex.... have contrived a phoney war of aggression to murder millions, dump a few thousand kilos of depleted uranium and shoot up the population by calling the freedom fighters insurgents - because they are not prepared to accept military occupation of their own country by another country, who's corrupt government contrived a phoney war to steal their oil?

    Oh fuck - we cannot have that as evidence in the court - has to be hidden that George W Bush is a drug fucked idiot, all his mates like Dick Cheney of Haliburton and the a board member on most of the USA's media, all stood to make massive profits...

    And Denize Lind? - and the other two judges? What kind of a game rigging arseholes are they?

    By contrast, presiding judge Colonel Denise Lind ruled yesterday that Manning could have only one witness: William Leonard of the National Archives and Records Administration. He will also not be allowed to present any evidence accusing the US government of excessive secrecy.

    Fuck them.

    Fuck them all.

    John Howard, and Tony Blair - all lying arseholes and cretins....

    http://www.documentarywire.com/war-made-easy

    The Video

    War Made Easy cuts through the dense web of spin to probe and scrutinize the key "perception management" techniques that have played huge roles in the promotion of American wars in recent decades. This guide to disinformation analyzes American military adventures past and present to reveal striking similarities in the efforts of various administrations to justify, and retain, public support for war. War Made Easy is essential reading. It documents a long series of deliberate misdeeds at the highest levels of power and lays out important guidelines to help readers distinguish a propaganda campaign from actual news reporting. With War Made Easy, every reader can become a savvy media critic and, perhaps, help the nation avoid costly and unnecessary wars.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpXZyhr1Sbg

    1. Psyx
      Stop

      Re: Fuck them all - this is a TOTAL farce.

      [citation needed]

    2. Matt Bryant Silver badge
      Happy

      Re: Fuck them all - this is a TOTAL farce.

      LOL! Are the US authorities paying you to make Manning supporters look silly?

  20. All names Taken
    Paris Hilton

    So, does it all smell sweetly of roses?

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