back to article Samsung demands Apple's iOS 6 source code in patent case

In the latest chapter in the ongoing global patent litigation between Apple and Samsung, the South Korean company has asked a local court to grant it access to the source code to iOS 6, claiming that only the code will tell whether Apple infringed its patents. According to a report in The Korea Times on Friday, Apple's legal …

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  1. LarsG
    Meh

    Saucy

    You might as well hand them over the keys to your house and let them sleep with your mother, girlfriend, sister and wife.

    I think not.

    1. Blank Reg

      Re: Saucy

      Samsung doesn't actually get to see any of the source code. The way these things usually work is that a neutral 3rd party will be tasked with determining if the code violates the patent, after all the suitable NDA are signed of course. And normally the code is stored on a physically secure machine that is not connected to any network to prevent any hack attempts.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Saucy

        Wouldn't it be funny if the neutral third party chosen by the court was Microsoft.

        1. Fatman Silver badge
          Pint

          Re: ...the neutral third party chosen by the court was Microsoft.

          DAMN YOU AC!!!!

          A mouthful of a soft drink spewed all over a keyboard, NO THANKS TO YOU!

          Another keyboard ruined. Now where do I send that bill!!!!????

          </sarcasm>

          <------- No soda icon, so this one will have to do.

          1. Chika
            Coffee/keyboard

            Re: ...the neutral third party chosen by the court was Microsoft.

            Actually, there's never been a soda icon, but there IS a "you owe me a keyboard" icon... :)

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Saucy

          Why? Apple have Microsoft may be rivals but they have agreements on patents and it is in Microsoft's interests to keep Apple afloat. They did so in the 1990s to avert another anti-trust investigation.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Saucy

        Not an Android machine then...

      3. Wize

        Re: Saucy

        "Samsung doesn't actually get to see any of the source code."

        I don't think they would want to either as there would be all sorts of cross claims that you are copying the code you've seen when you release your next product.

    2. Adam 1 Silver badge

      Re: Saucy

      When I first heard it I too thought it was a ridiculous request.

      Then I remembered that this is a request to the same folk who think rounded corners are an invention and slowly came to realise that using logic is not a good predictor of the outcome of such cases.

      1. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge
        WTF?

        Re: Saucy

        I would consider this appropriate in copyright infringement cases, but in this case it's about patents. If it is not clear by looking at the device black-box wise whether a patent is even being infringed, said patent paper should be used as canine fecal removement tool and the USPTO doofus who granted it should be GITMOed for aggravated asshattery.

        1. Hungry Sean
          FAIL

          Re: Saucy

          Destroy All Monsters, your test for worthiness of a patent would eliminate a shit ton of hard work from patent protection while maintaining it for land-grabs and rounded corners.

          How about methods of write levelling on SSDs, object tracking, recovering signal loss due to multipathing in radio communication? I could go on and on. With a black-box approach you can tell someone else's product is doing a good job or not, or even if it is attaining similar performance to your method, but you can't tell if they are infringing your clever method of doing it.

          If you don't reject the patent system entirely, then this sort of discovery is a necessary consequence.

        2. hold2ransom

          Re: Saucy

          Software patents ring a bell!!

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Pint

        Re: Saucy

        That was good! Thumbs up!

    3. Andrew Moore
      Pint

      Re: Saucy

      Remember who is asking for this (and making lots of money)- It's lawyers versus lawyers. Both sides employ them so they might as well get some use out of them. And I'm sure both sides have some form of war chest to cover the costs of the 40 ongoing cases, and it's a fraction of their profit.

    4. amanfromMars 1 Silver badge

      Perfect Digital Storming Weather Ahead ..... Highly Frequent Squalls and Squirmishes Expected

      You might as well hand them over the keys to your house and let them sleep with your mother, girlfriend, sister and wife.

      I think not........ LarsG Posted Friday 25th January 2013 21:00 GMT

      Notwithstanding what you may think, LarsG, do you think the request, which apparently is not unprecedented, and may even be quite usual in such cases, has spooked some insider trading and parasitic profit making?...... Apple's Flash Dump In The Last Second Of Trading Caught On Tape

      Or is there another good reason for that ........

      Ok .... who's realising that Blackberry 10 [launch date Jan 30th] is the new superkid on the block? And what would constitute and precipitate a flash crash?
      .... on a rigged and rigging market platform with dodgy HFT algorithms which are vulnerable to ...... well, let us just say more expert chaos source manipulation.

      Welcome to the Greater Great IntelAIgent Game and Devilishly Heavenly ARG MetaPhorical Play ..... Virtual ShowTime.

  2. Herby Silver badge

    Seems to be a case of:

    You show me yours, and I'll show you mine.

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Facepalm

    Last man standing...

    I still say the way to settle this is a via Celebrity Death Match with the heads of both firms in the ring.

  4. g.marconi

    Clearly ridiculous to allow Apple cases to be tried by an American court.....should be in a neutral country such as Saudi Arabia.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      DUH! this is about patents registered in the USA!

      You have to register copyright, trademarks and patents in each country you want them active in.

      1. Tom Maddox Silver badge
        Trollface

        Hey, now, don't let logic, reason, and law get in the way of a perfectly good American Hate thread.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          @Maddox.

          the reason why you see these sort of posts in patent discussion forums, is the same reason why you see anti-Saudi Arabian posts in human rights forums.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        "DUH! this is about patents registered in the USA!"

        DUH! did you read the article? It clearly states "the South Korean company has asked a local court to grant it access to the source code to iOS 6". Local to South Korea is not the USA. If that's not enough for you, click the report which tells you specifically which South Korean court it is.

      3. Tim Bates

        "Re: Registering copyright

        Only stupid, backwards countries require people to register copyright.

        In sane countries, copyright applies the instant someone creates content.

    2. Fatman Silver badge

      Saudi Arabia?

      OK g.marconi, if you want to apply Sharia law to the "conflict" between Apple and Samsung; one way to make it more interesting would be to apply Sharia punishment also.

      Now, what is the the Sharia punishment for "theft"??

      Perhaps it can be applied to the CEOs of both companies, starting with the CEO of Apple.

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Why...

    can't we all just get along?

    1. JohnG

      Re: Why...

      "Why can't we all just get along?"

      Because all the lawyers would starve - and the lawyers won't let that happen.

      1. Chika
        FAIL

        Re: Why...

        "Because all the lawyers would starve - and the lawyers won't let that happen."

        Damn! I knew there was a flaw in the plan somewhere!

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Samsung just has to wait until Apples stock price depresses further, then they can buy Apple for a song.

    AAPL is down 34.5% from the high point in September.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Samsung's big success in the mobile market will be killed off by Google's nexus.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        "Samsung's big success in the mobile market will be killed off by Google's nexus."

        That requires... stock.

        (Annoyed Android Dev needing a new dev phone)

        1. cantankerousblogger
          Facepalm

          And physical buttons

          Nexus 4 is all very nice but I've lost track of the number of calls I've missed while trying to take off my gloves to answer the bloody phone. Soft buttons might be great for the Beach Boys but here in northern Europe it gets a bit chilly and I really miss that magic green physical button. It is not like the space is used for any other function either...

          1. Turtle_Fan

            Re: And physical buttons

            While I appreciate your frustration, which I shared till recently I must inform you that there are gloves out there (both thermal and work) that have a small patch of conducting material on the thumb and index finger ends.

            Of course it's a pain and an unnecessary cost but when you next go for a pair of gloves keep it in mind.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Think that might be a while - they are still vying for number 1 or number 2 with Exxon.

    3. Fatman Silver badge

      RE: .... they can buy Apple for a song

      Now, you are wandering into a real "dirty tricks" scenario there!!!!

      Imagine, for a moment, Sammy using some proxies to slowly buy up Apple stock while it sits in the tank. Then when sufficient stock is held by the proxies, stage a takeover. First act of the new "owner" - boot Apple's C level suite right out the door.

      Karma - best served without any warning.

  7. Lloyd Kinsella
    Stop

    Think of the children!

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Give it 3-4 years and Samsung will be back making pretty average fridges and microwaves.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      and Apple will be suing them, claiming that they invented the fridge and microwave.

      1. bolccg
        Mushroom

        You obviously lack ambition

        "and Apple will be suing them, claiming that they invented the fridge and microwave."

        Actually Apple invented cold. Um, and hot. So I guess until Apple came along everything was, like, the same temperature? Uh, yeah, sounds right*.

        * You may believe that ranges of temperature existed before Apple invented them, indeed you may even have seen science fiction movies that predicted the basics of things not all being the same temperature many years ago. Perhaps, at your most erroneous, you may believe that you yourself owned thermometers that indicate that others had considered the concept of temperature ranges to not only exist but in fact be blindingly obvious, years before Apple's invention. However, I spoke to twelve people in East Texas on the subject (one of whom was an "inventor" himself) and they tell me that you're wrong.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Actually Apple invented cold. Um, and hot.

          And Apple looked, and saw that is was good.

      2. Adam 1 Silver badge

        of course Apple invented the fridge

        Rectangle, check

        Rounded corners, check

        Cool, check

        Patent infringed.

        1. Dave 126 Silver badge

          Re: of course Apple invented the fridge

          Does any here know of a browser plugin that renders invisible any comment that contains the phrase 'rounded rectangle'?

          Of course; those of you who use such a plug-in won't be able to read this comment. Damn!

          1. nuked
            FAIL

            Re: of course Apple invented the fridge

            And you need a plug-in to achieve this outcome?

    2. FlossyThePig

      Average?

      what's wrong with average?

      By "pretty average" do you mean below average?

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      And Apple?

      Back making minority-market, over-priced PCs?

    4. Jonathon Green
      Thumb Down

      "Give it 3-4 years and Samsung will be back making pretty average fridges and microwaves."

      ...along with the oil tankers, power stations, hospitals, heavy construction equipment, insurance, theme parks, department stores, and jet engines. Seriously, mobile hadsets are just one part of an electronics division which is one small part of a highly diversified industrial behemoth...

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samsung

      I suspect they'll be around considerably longer than Apple.

      1. asdf Silver badge
        Trollface

        >Give it 3-4 years and Samsung will be back making pretty average fridges and microwaves.

        Better than making subpar ones and charging premium prices for them ala Sony's electronics these days.

  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Karma's a bitch

    Apple have been free to rip-off Android for years, because of it's opensource nature. (Notifications anyone??) Now the tide has turned, it's payback time...

    Oh dear. I'm sure all will turn out fine, as it's quite clear Apple have plenty of US officials in it's pockets thou..

    1. Steve Knox
      Headmaster

      Re: Karma's a bitch

      Thou what?

      Incidentally, dost thou have a standard QWERTY keyboard layout?

      If thou hath such, please find the L key on thy keyboard.

      Now, move two keys to thy right.

      Now, rip that key off of thy keyboard and cast it from thine presence.

      1. Fatman Silver badge

        Re: Karma's a bitch

        You have me with:

        If thou hath such, please find the L key on thy keyboard.

        Now, move two keys to thy right.

        Now, rip that key off of thy keyboard and cast it from thine presence.

        On my QWERTY keyboard, the key 2 keys to the right of the L key is the ' / " key. Now, why would I want to get rid of it??? It comes in handy when I create BASH scripts.

      2. JohnG

        Re: Karma's a bitch

        "Thou what?"

        How about: Thou shalt finish words and sentences and not just tail off in the middle.

      3. Kubla Cant Silver badge
        Headmaster

        Re: Karma's a bitch

        @Steve Knox: I just upvoted you for amusement value, but...

        thou hath => thou hast. "Hath" is third person singular, as in "he hath" - you got it right with "dost thou".

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Karma's a bitch

      Which came first? oh yes, iOS did.

      Android phones would have looked like a qwerty blackberry device without the iPhone.

  10. Wiibloke

    Bored

    So so so so insanely bored of this now. If they want market share then make a product that earns it.

    1. Ken Hagan Gold badge

      Re: Bored

      They did. Unfortunately, someone else is now claiming it was *their* product.

  11. regorthegreat

    Patent a Patent Trial process?

    Maybe Apple should try to patent the process by which they require source code from another company to fight a patent trial. Since they tried to do it before, it must be ok. But OMG if someone tries to do it to them.

  12. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    If Apple does have to disclose the source code, anyone care to wager that an out of court settlement will be reached quickly? The $1 billion that Apple won will go away and Apple could end up paying Samsung off.

  13. John Tserkezis

    My guess is...

    ...that Apple will do the same as SCO.

    Hand over fifteen CDs packed with code to the courts and tell them to sort it out amongst themselves.

    1. Dapprman
      Thumb Up

      Re: My guess is...

      It was IBM with AIX. SCO were the ones who demanded the source code. If memory serves me correct IBM gave them print outs as no specific format had been requested.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: My guess is...

        If i was IBM I would have dug out an old punch card machine and gave them the source in that format then :)

        1. Fatman Silver badge

          Re: My guess is...

          I can imagine some truck driver with pallets of punch cards "delivering" that source code.

          Oh, and BTW, insure that it is NOT delivered in the correct instruction sequence, either. (i.e. Shuffle the deck first.)

      2. Vic

        Re: My guess is...

        > If memory serves me correct IBM gave them print outs as no specific format had been requested.

        Nope. IBM gave them servers.

        SCO had IBM's AIX source code in an easily-searchable form. THe reason they found no infringement is that there was no infringement to be found...

        Vic.

  14. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Source Code

    Apple are terrified they'll be forced to reveal that iOS is actually written in ActionScript.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Source Code

      You mean Visual Basic...

  15. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Apple should ask for plans for the Death Star.

    I mean seriously seems Samsung copy most things from Apple - so what next iiOS or sOS on one of their devices. Why not ask for plans and prototypes of all new Apple gear so they can get a head start.

  16. Patrick O'Reilly

    Apple Advantage

    If Apple want to review Samsung's source code all they need is, to paraphrase Andy Rubin:

    mkdir android ; cd android ; repo init -u git://android.git.kernel.org/platform/manifest.git ; repo sync ;

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Apple Advantage

      It was TouchWiz that triggered The Great Patent Wars and I'm pretty sure that's not included in the Android source. At least I hope it's not.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Apple Advantage

        Having had to work with TouchWiz, the bits I've seen and the way it breaks standard Android, I have every reason to believe Samsung use the infinite monkey approach to writing code.

        1. asdf Silver badge
          Trollface

          Re: Apple Advantage

          >have every reason to believe Samsung use the infinite monkey approach to writing code.

          Seems to be the case in most companies but especially in companies outside of western Europe and North American. First thing comp sci majors need to learn when going out in the real world is never reuse code off the internet from someone whose last name contains more than 15 consonants.

  17. Joerg
    Thumb Down

    Samsung bribes to steal from Apple ...

    ...if the judges are corrupted then Samsung will get away with it.

    That is called mafia.

  18. jowlymonster

    I'm bored.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Well do some work then!

      Yours cheerfully,

      The boss.

      1. Fatman Silver badge

        Re: Well do some work then!

        he is lucky that he isn't trolling CW's Shark Bait, otherwise JIM THE BSOS would FRIER HIS SRORY ASSK.

  19. Not That Andrew

    Wow, the iTards are out in force today.

    1. xyz
      Devil

      That got me wondering...what is the collective noun for...

      ....iTards, you know like a Vectra of salesmen or a glaring of cats. Maybe a denial of iTards and a shiney of fanbois.

  20. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Politician line on crime

    If Samsung was politician the line would be..

    "If you've done nothing wrong you've nothing to fear."

    1. Chika
      Coat

      Re: Politician line on crime

      The trouble with that is another rule which starts something like this:

      "How do you know when a politician is lying?"

      Come to think of it, corporate lawyers seem to be heading in the same direction, ne?

  21. 404 Silver badge

    Neither here, nor there...

    Don't you just hate it when a typed word just looks wrong? Neither, Niether, breaks rule i before e yada... moving on.

    Vastly amused by comments this morning - there is a high volume of generational 'there was nothing before this product' folks out, especially concerning these products. Funny how that is, what ever you, personally, grew up with, that was the pinnacle of whatever it was, and has gone down ever since.

    Ya'll have fun, I'm off to figure out why we can finish a quest we started in EverQuest last night/this morning (Vergalid Mines if you must know) and will toss off a prayer to those people at RIM that they know what they are doing and produce a good 'un with BB10.

    ;)

    1. Hungry Sean
      Pint

      Re: Neither here, nor there...

      and going delightfully off topic:

      I learned the rhyme as "i before e except after c or when sounded like A as in neither or weigh"

      Now, I have no clue who on earth says "Nayt-her"-- I do know people who say nigh-ther. And what about weird? Probably this all made sense at one point when germanic influences on English pronunciation were stronger, but it seems an overhaul to the mnemonic is overdue. How about: "i before e/except when you see/some long since dead guy/placed e before i" ?

      1. Kubla Cant Silver badge

        Re: Neither here, nor there...

        According to an unimpeachable source* there are more words that break the rule than follow it.

        * Oh all right, Stephen Fry on QI. And most of the examples he gave seemed pretty tendentious.

  22. tempemeaty

    Perhaps Apple put it's fangs in a something the should not have?

    Apple should have done their homework on Koreans and war before Apple went to all out war against their partner Samsung. Sucks to be Apple.

  23. JeffyPooh Silver badge
    Pint

    Maybe Samsung's code review would help Apple fix a few of their stupid bugs

    Posted from my imperfect iPhone.

  24. Wort

    Nicer Company

    I wonder if Apple really anticipated such a vigorous response from Samsung in courts worldwide?

    I wonder how much it is costing Apple to switch CPU's and switch to a different memory supplier?

    I wonder how anxious Samsung will be to have Apple be among the first customers for it's (possibly game changing) new flexible screen tech?

    I wonder how Apple management feels now that their lawyers have made them look ridiculous with their crazed patent claims?

    I wonder what it is like to be the most avaricious company (Apple) in tech? (and that is saying something given Intel's near monopoly in some market segments)

    I wonder how all the Apple fanbois would feel if Microsoft/Intel acted like Apple is acting?

    Apple = Stifle Innovation

  25. Duncan 4
    Coat

    Like most of it's products Apple is all talk and no trousers!

    1. Chika
      Happy

      The trousers would be supplied as an overpriced add-on, ne?

  26. Scrumble
    Coat

    How much

    "Apple and Samsung are currently embroiled in more than 40 lawsuits in the US, Europe, Asia, and Australia, as each tries to use the courts to gain market advantage over the other"

    And who's paying for all this. Maybe if they stopped all these stupid, pointless law suits which cost millions, they wouldn't have to charge such ridiculous prices for the bloody phones in the first place. Ultimately its us, the muggins, that pay for these bloody expensive lawyers.

  27. MrZoolook
    Stop

    "It doesn't make any sense. Samsung is saying that we should give up our most important data,"

    At least Samsung are asking a court for it, instead of the Apple way of procuring it... Theft!

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