back to article Microsoft blasts PC makers: It's YOUR fault Windows 8 crash landed

Microsoft blames PC makers for underwhelming Windows 8 sales over Christmas, The Register has learned. The software giant accused manufacturers of not building enough attractive Win 8-powered touchscreen tablets. But the computer makers are fighting back: they claimed that if they’d followed Microsoft’s hardware requirements …

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  1. Andrew Moore Silver badge
    Gimp

    Well...

    They can relaunch a turd as many times as they want, it's still not going to smell of roses.

    Reminds me of the say "You can't polish a turd but you can roll it in glitter". Maybe that's what they are doing.

    1. Sooty

      Re: Well...

      I believe Mythbusters did indeed prove that you can polish a turd!

    2. Shagbag

      IT's what happens when you don't listen to your customers

      I have to laugh. After all the negative reviews of Windows 8 and people saying consumers don't want it, they're now blaming the OEMs.

      MSFT just don't get it.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Holmes

        Re: IT's what happens when you don't listen to your customers

        Obviously, Windows 8 is the Windows of pastel-coloured rectangles. If manufacturers can't get it together to manufacture pastel-coloured boxes for it, then, obviously it is not going to sell.

        1. Handle this!

          Re: IT's what happens when you don't listen to your customers

          Nip down to your local Wm Morrisons - some of their own label branded product packaging (ceral bars / health biscuit snack bars etc) look like the Windows 8 interface.

          Would you buy one if it were boxed like that?

          Moot point I think.

      2. Wade Burchette

        Re: IT's what happens when you don't listen to your customers

        Microsoft just made the common mistake many big companies make: They say "It is not our fault". People not seeing movies, it is not our fault because we know our movies are great therefore it must be piracy. People not buying new CD's, it is not our because fault because we know our music is great therefore it must be piracy. People not buying Windows 8 machines, it is not our fault because we know people like this new UI therefore it must be the OEM's fault.

        Far too often today people refuse to admit they made a mistake until they have no choice but to admit. You do not need to admit a mistake publicly, but at least stop blaming others and consider you may have made a poor decision.

      3. Lee Dowling Silver badge

        Re: IT's what happens when you don't listen to your customers

        Since when did MS get to dictate what people produced or stocked? Whether you can have their badge or OS, okay, bit overbearing - and been hung over the coals in terms of monopolistic practices before - but if that's what you want to do...

        But to tell a manufacturer (sometimes direct competitors in certain industries) what to make, and expect them to make it, and stock it, and push it - where does that come from? If people aren't buying product X, I'll be damned if the company that makes software to go on product X will tell me to make more or stock more or sell more, and that it's my fault their software isn't selling. They could ask, politely, given certain balancing rewards for myself but to dictate it?

        MS really just don't know what their customers, suppliers, partners, or anyone else wants. They are solely interested in just selling whatever junk they can make by any means necessary, and everybody else better play along. Maybe that's why they have to buy a part of Dell to actually make a break into the hardware side.

        We really need a manufacturer's revolt in the PC market, where people just say "enough", and start selling Android, or even Apple(!) desktops as "PC's" and so dilute the meaning to the point where Windows doesn't mean anything any more.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          @Lee Dowling - Re: IT's what happens when you don't listen to your customers

          Erm, let me guess! You've been somewhere else in a distant galaxy all these decades since the launch of MS-DOS, weren't you ? Otherwise you should have known that MS indeed dictates (and they always did) to OEMs on every little detail. Just read something on the net about the netbook saga and you'll get up to speed with the rest of us.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: @Lee Dowling - IT's what happens when you don't listen to your customers

            you should have known that MS indeed dictates (and they always did) to OEMs on every little detail.

            Indeed! Why do keyboards need 'windows' keys?

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: @Lee Dowling - IT's what happens when you don't listen to your customers

              "Indeed! Why do keyboards need 'windows' keys?"

              Which is why it's refreshing to see no such thing on the Chromebooks. Perhaps it's a sign of things to come - and it can only be better for customers.

              Apple have started on that same path Microsoft marched for many a year, showing arrogance and indifference to customers by dictating what software they must now use along with the new hardware you must have to run it. Microsoft no longer seem particularly relevant in the innovation game to the average punter despite being the only company really trying, albeit shoddily, to push new interface ideas into the maintream. So they're not in a strong enough position to threaten Apple's 'brand' dominance (ignoring of course their obvious massive install-base, but that's a different subject). Luckily Android has risen in profile and prominence enough to challenge Apple head-on and force them to stay competitive and it may prove to be Microsoft's saviours, staving off stagnation in the market and total Apple product dominance in the fastest growth form factors, and buying MS some time to get their act together and get back into the game.

              Interesting times to be a customer in the tech market after so many years of 'same old, same old'.

              1. kb
                Megaphone

                Re: @Lee Dowling - IT's what happens when you don't listen to your customers

                Riiight, a bog standard X86 laptop that is so locked down that only by switching to "dev mode" and jumping through a page and a half worth of CLI BS and possibly voiding your warranty (as you have to completely wipe the drive, no dual booting allowed) is "better" than what we had before?

                Love 'em or hate 'em but I can take any Windows laptop and in 10 minutes be booting from one of dozens of distros in live CD or installer form. ChromeBooks are so locked down there is exactly ONE Linux distro that can boot onto a ChromeBook and its a bootloader hacked version of Ubuntu put out by one guy, yeah sure that is gonna get a LOT of support.

                I'm all for choice and making MSFT actually compete as the next guy, I think competition is great, this is one of the reasons why i still build AMD exclusively but do NOT replace one corporate master with another, okay guys? Honestly Apple, Google, and MSFT seem to be having this contest called "who can be more of an abuser of their customers" so we should be screaming bloody murder about the dirty stuff Google does and just because MSFT is also terrible doesn't give Google a free pass.

              2. tom dial Silver badge

                Re: @Lee Dowling - IT's what happens when you don't listen to your customers

                Lost me totally beginning at "Apple have *started* ... (emphasis added).

                And Apple's main reaction to Android seems to have been to sue the manufacturers who use it. I suppose that might be considered innovation, but not in the context here.

        2. The Godfather
          Happy

          Re: IT's what happens when you don't listen to your customers

          Probably also a case of Microsoft no longer being in a position to bully people they way they have....

        3. John Smith 19 Gold badge
          Facepalm

          Re: IT's what happens when you don't listen to your customers

          "We really need a manufacturer's revolt in the PC market, where people just say "enough", and start selling Android, "

          Need it, yes. Get it. No.

          During the period that MS charged for MSDOS per # of PCs the mfg made regardless of wheather or not they had MSDOS loaded. When that was exposed they started charging for the level of Intel processor it was running (Or was it the other way around?) andy of the mfgs could have ratted them out.

          None of them did because they recognized MS's effective monopoly of the desktop market. The OS tail wags the H/W dog. You've either got an MS license for Windows WTF version it's called this 21 month cycle or you don't and as a mfg you're a dead dog if you don't.

          "or even Apple(!) desktops as "PC's" "

          Apple were partly saved from going under by MS partly (it is said) to demonstrate there was

          competition in the desktop market. Despite Apple core hardware being (in effect) a PC try loading another OS on their hardware and selling it and see what happens.

          Dell appear to be the one that has come closest and that's on a very low level.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: andy of the mfgs

            Andy, of the mfgs?

            Who was that Andy that held such power and yet failed the future by not using it? Has he ever forgiven himself?

            1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
              Happy

              Re: andy of the mfgs

              "Andy, of the mfgs?

              Who was that Andy that held such power and yet failed the future by not using it? Has he ever forgiven himself?"

              Ho Ho.

              I did of course mean "any." My bad.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Pint

                Re andy of the mfgs: My Kingdom for a Good Typo

                Always a welcome ray of light. Loved this one :)

                Have a beer, sir!

            2. This post has been deleted by its author

            3. Amorous Cowherder
              Happy

              Re: andy of the mfgs

              mfgs? That's those little LEGO people isn't it? You know the ones of Star Wars characters one of which must be called Andy!

        4. Euripides Pants Silver badge
          FAIL

          Re: and so dilute the meaning to the point where Windows doesn't mean anything any more

          Microsoft is doing a fine job of that all by themselves

        5. Rob 21

          Re: IT's what happens when you don't listen to your customers

          XP SP3. Now, and forever!

          1. Bob. Hitchen
            Thumb Up

            Re: IT's what happens when you don't listen to your customers

            Yes I still run it does all I want why change? There does seem to be a fundamental flaw in touch screen thinking. Who would use it outside the tablet/phone market? I have 2 28" screens that allow me to sit feet away and work why would I want to put grubby fingure marks on the screen - it's nonsense. The mouse and keyboard are fit for purpose and cheap to replace - how much is a touch screen?

            I have a relation who works in the health service and huge touch screens installed on wards have been a disaster - cost a mint nobody uses them. They're probably bug infested anyway.

    3. venneford

      Re: Well...

      Microsoft has mistaken vendor lock-in as brand loyalty. Once you break the reason why people bought Microsoft products, Microsoft doesn't have any leverage..

    4. Mad Hobbit
      Gimp

      Re: Well...

      well on Mythbusters they did polish a turd and got it quite shiny(ok two turds).but they underestimated how well windows 7 went over,reminds me of when coke came out with new coke.we still use windows xp on several machines at work. for what they are used for XP is more than enough of a OS.

      1. JimTopbloke

        Re: Well...

        I still use a Windows 95 computer at work, and it is the most stable machine I use!

        It runs all the programs I need and I can get work done faster on this machine using ancient software than I can with all the bloatware and distractions on newer machines ;)

        nor do I worry about virus infection because who is targeting Windows 95? No one!

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Well...

          "nor do I worry about virus infection because who is targeting Windows 95? No one!', and if/when an obscure bug is found who's going to give a rat's arse about you and your problem?!

          1. JimTopbloke

            Re: Well...

            do you not think windows 95 had enough well documented bugs to fry my system?

            my point is it's hardly likely anyone would bother attacking a windows 95 system, not that you should go and install it right away and it would solve all your problems..

            but imagine how fast it would run on a modern machine, not the Pentium II that it currently resides on ;)

    5. Anonymous Coward
      Happy

      Re: Well...

      The reason Win8 didn't kick start a hardware buying frenzy is because it works so well on old gear.

      I am typing this on an Acer laptop that shipped with vista (dog). I enjoyed a couple of years of Win7 and recently upgraded to Win 8. With Win 7 I enjoyed stability and much better media and vitualisation. However with Win 8, after two weeks of abject horror twice as traumatic as the Office Ribbon, I now have the best OS I gave ever used. It feels like a new upgraded machine it is so quick. It is absolutely stable and after the initial learning curve it feels a lot more up to date than Win7 did. It's also great to have two OS's for the price of one - I spend most of my time on the desktop but it's cool to play with the Metro in my 'free time'.

      I think Win 8 will be seen as a classic in years to come - a bit like XP. It took AGES for business to migrate from 2000 and consumers to migrate from Win98 but they did come eventually!

      1. Blitterbug
        Devil

        Re: I think Win 8 will be seen as a classic in years to come

        Err... no, I really don't think so. Unless in years to come the meaning of the word 'classic' has evolved to become 'gigaturd'. Incidentally, just to prove I'm not hatin' on MS, I likewise refute the 'dog' tag (hur hur) you attributed to Vista. With both SPs 1 & 2 installed it contains the W7 driver model & is nippy as you could like. Just my ten quids' worth.

      2. Mr Curmudgeon
        Happy

        Re: Well...

        I'm with you. Have a Fujitsu lappy that came preloaded with Vista. I always thought it was a bit of an underperformer, and I never wanted to pay what MS wanted for the W7 upgrade. I grabbed the cheap W8 upgrade and installed it. Now my computer works much better. Admittedly, have some issues with the learning curve / ridiculous switching back and forth of the views, but on the whole I'm satisfied.

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Windows

        Re: Well...

        mmmm.... Classic, that I wonder. However I do think that Win 8 is better than it is perceived and expressed on this forum. I've used the majority of the Windows OS's since Windows 3.1 and liked all since WinXP. However some people aren't quite that accepting of change and you still see people ranting about not changing off of Windows XP. The Metro/Modern UI interface is a bit of a shock, and I do tend to spend the majority of my time in the Desktop version of the UI. However I expect that having a shared UI interface for all form factors was in fact a good idea. I also expect that MS is in fact "all in" and that we will be seeing the Metro/Modern UI for a couple of iterations, not only desktop/laptop/tablet, but also Xbox 720 and Windows Phone. So while I am not sure I am SUPER THRILLED with it and I do think that it requires some degree of getting used to as well as some changes, it will be here for a while.

        However some people aren't happy unless they are drooling at the mouth and enraged, so be it.

        So those that hate Metro/Modern UI, RANT ON!!!

        Classic, I am not sure. But we will be seeing Metro for a while.

      4. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Well...

        Yes. I agree. We've had similar results in IT support Colin too.

        See you at the Christmas Party.

        Regards

        John Doe

        IT Support

        RescueMyOnlineReputation.Com

      5. Anonymous Coward
        FAIL

        Re: Well...

        "However with Win 8, after two weeks of abject horror twice as traumatic as the Office Ribbon, I now have the best OS I gave ever used."

        I am so fucking fed up with spending MY TIME, doing Microsoft Rework "brain surgery"on computers, while incurring losses, in this case, 2 weeks of losses, and then having to work an extra 2 weeks overtime to make up for the losses, that my answer to this is "Fuck Microsoft".

        That is a WHOLE month of fucked up earnings.... Fucked up clients and Fucked up home life.

        Yeah spend X dollars to buy an OS, and the lose XXXXXXXX dollars to make it fucking work.

        Yeah great deal.

        Remind me why suicide will make my life better.

        I suppose that you still cannot get rid of the idiot ribbon either.

        Fail - because Microsoft just is.

        1. Cyrus Lesser
          FAIL

          Re: Well...

          And I suppose Microsoft will also complain about poor sales of Windows Phone devices until someone tells them the hard truth that by removing USB cable synch functionality with Outlook the phone is unuseable by 99% of their loyal user base. What moron made THAT decision?

        2. Philip Lewis
          Thumb Up

          Re: Well...

          I too have burned countless days fighting Windows and fixing family computers.

          Eventually (and it took years) I convinced all my extended family to buy Macs. I don't get support calls any more.

          This is a fact, like it or lump it.

      6. Tex Arcana
        Devil

        Re: Well...

        Hah, like Fista was hailed by the users as the saver of all things PC... oh, wait: that was Win7. O___o

        When I built my i7-based rig in 2008, Fista ran pretty decently; but 7 ran rings around it.

        Either your laptop is a mega-rig, or you're a Ballmer-licker trying to shill the forums and comments.

    6. kb
      Windows

      Re: Well...

      Well its not only that, oh and FYI it was NOT "Vista PREMIUM Capable" as that would have meant it could actually run Vista HP, no what got them was it was Vista CAPABLE which they had set the bar so low so that Intel could unload their God awful 9xx chipsets that frankly you could have sold P3 Celerons and gotten that title as the bar was THAT low. It turned out "Vista capable" was Vista"BASIC" capable which the courts ruled wasn't Vista, it was a crippled netbook OS.

      Now as far as the turd goes...sigh, when you need a Win 7 PC to Google how to use the Win 8 PC? Something has gone horribly wrong and before any apologists chime in with "Oh you are just a Luddite you don't want to learn new things" or "All you need to do is (ton of keyboard crud)" I learned enough to do basic tasks in Linux, not do anything fancy, just basics, in about an hour, Android even less than that, about a half hour, whereas 4 days later I still couldn't find basic features in Win 8. I mean the UI doesn't even follow any established guidelines or even common sense. You get to the shutdown from a SETTINGS icon, really? And I'm far from the only one, here is a guy that writes fricking tech articles all day and even HE needed a Win 7 PC to Google how to use the brand new Win 8 PC in front of him. There is NO context clues, no consistency on how things work, its just kinda random..

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTYet-qf1jo

      Everyone should watch that video because as a tech writer he explains exactly what is wrong (he goes so far as to say there should be a recall) I would only add that in my little shop I had a frankly beautiful Athlon triple core running Win 8 for nearly 7 months for people to try and not only did I not get a SINGLE person saying they actually LIKED Win 8, the closest i could get to a compliment is "Well it may be alright on a cellphone" but not a single person made me an offer on that system, even though it was frankly a beautiful machine. I put Win 7 HP on it? Sold it in less than 3 days. Hmmm...7 months VS 3 days...yeah as a retailer that is all i need to know right there.

  2. This post has been deleted by a moderator

    1. Silverburn
      FAIL

      Re: Windows 8 FAIL

      oooh, you're slipping Eadon...your anti/ms bile was only 2nd post! We were all expecting to see your biased dribble cruise into 1st post within seconds of the article being posted...

      1. Tom 7 Silver badge

        Re: Windows 8 FAIL

        Sliverburn - are you trying to become an ubertroll

        Uberubertroll.

      2. envmod

        Re: Windows 8 FAIL

        you MUST be Steve Ballmer

      3. W.O.Frobozz

        Re: Windows 8 FAIL

        Hey look, it's the new "Steve Barkto!" Still getting your cheques to be a Munchkin, right? Maybe you'll get a nice shiny Kinect (complete with Dance Dance Han Solo) as a reward for being a "MVP."

        That's the fun thing about Microsoft astroturfers. You can spot 'em a mile away these days and no one is fooled by their bullshit anymore.

    2. hitmouse

      Re: Windows 8 FAIL

      For many years Microsoft has had more hardware designers than most of its OEMs put together. I imagine that after the OEMs did such a bad job of designing early grey boxes, that Microsoft wanted to provide some thought leadership.

      1. This post has been deleted by a moderator

        1. hitmouse

          Re: Windows 8 FAIL

          @Eadon: Ummm let me see Microsoft makes prototypes of tablets back in 2000 which the OEMs use. It puts out a tablet-enabled version of Windows XP in 2002 while Apple and Dell are triumphantly telling the world that no one wants tablets.

          MSN Search is older than Google, and was rebranded as Bing. A fair chunk of Google's top brass are ex-Microsofties.

          If you want to make these accusations please lay out the design trail between Microsoft, Apple and the OEMs. I'm sure the courts would be interested in your *cough* theories.

          1. This post has been deleted by a moderator

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Windows 8 FAIL

              @Edon - Bing toolbar doesn't send Google search results back to MS, it sends the URLs you have visited to MS, like it tells you it does.

              In other news one of the things that the EU want Google to stop doing in order to not investigate them under anti-competition laws is, you guessed it: Stop reporting other search engines' results as their own.

              1. Richard Plinston Silver badge

                Re: Windows 8 FAIL

                > In other news one of the things that the EU want Google to stop doing in order to not investigate them under anti-competition laws is, you guessed it: Stop reporting other search engines' results as their own.

                Perhaps you are unaware that the complaint to the EU was made by Microsoft and it was them who made the accusations, including the spurious and unsupported one that Google was blocking MS.

                """After a 20 month investigation, the FTC -- whose boss made it clear he absolutely wanted to bring down Google if he could -- couldn't find any evidence that Google's search results were somehow anticompetitive. All of the evidence pointed to the same basic thing: what Google did was for the benefit of its users. While some competitors were upset about it, antitrust should not be about propping up competitors who can't compete, especially if consumers are not being harmed. Besides, if you actually look at the "competitors" who complained the loudest, many of them are doing quite well these days. """

                https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130111/07473421641/do-we-really-want-eu-bureaucrats-deciding-what-google-search-results-should-look-like.shtml

              2. This post has been deleted by a moderator

            2. Wallyb132
              Boffin

              Re: Windows 8 FAIL @Eadon

              Sir, may i refill your glass for you?! This Kool-aid sure goes fast around these parts....

          2. Richard Plinston Silver badge

            Re: Windows 8 FAIL

            > MSN Search is older than Google, and was rebranded as Bing.

            """Page's web crawler began exploring the web in March 1996, ..."

            """MSN Search first launched in the third quarter of 1998 and used search results from Inktomi. ... a short time in 1999 when results from AltaVista were used ... Image search was powered by a third party, Picsearch. ..."""

            So while Google, and others such as Inktomi and AltaVista, developed search engines and invented internet searching, MS came along later and merely provided an MS branded front end to others' work.

            That is the usual MS 'innovation'.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Linux

          Re: Windows 8 FAIL

          "This is not going to end well (for Microsoft)." - Music to my ears......

    3. dogged
      Meh

      Re: Windows 8 FAIL

      (let's face it, it's rubbish

      No, it's an improvement over Win7 which was itself rather good.

      If you don't like the interface, that's your right but the OS is fine. Then again, you're on record here as declaring Windows 7 "unfit for purpose" which I think marks you as a zealous idiot rather than any kind of useful judge.

      1. wowfood
        Windows

        Re: Windows 8 FAIL

        Honestly I think it comes down to Microsoft attempting the 'we know best' route... again.

        They did the same with the ribbon, they launch a new UI, force it on everyone. Some people adapted and enjoyed it, it attracted a few people from different crowds, but a fair portion of the existing market for office migrated to libreoffice or openoffice. They forgot that people have a choice and if they don't like something they can leave.

        Enter windows 8, they push a new UI which is not suited to a desktop environment, or a laptop environment, or a business environment, but works well on tablets and phones. Some people have/will adapt. Some people may migrate over liking the new simplified interface. But a fair portion are going to say "NO" and begin looking elsewhere, macs and linux come to mind.

        Yes you can re-enable the desktop mode as a main feature, but a lot of people don't want to have to go through several steps each time they use their computer just to get the environment the way they like. An OS is meant to 'just work' not 'just work, after you move the mouse here, click there, open run, go to regedit, change a 0 for a 1, reboot, go to the bottom left corner, show desktop mode"

        And god forbid if they deem windows 8 a 'success' then they'll likely disable the desktop permanently (as they have done with the old taskbars vs the ribbon)

        I used to use a lot of microsoft software, but every time they've forced a change on us I've chosen to migrate away to a free version with an interface I like, rather than one I tolerate. Right now the only reason I keep windows is for visual studio and games. And thanks to mono / WINE I may not even need it for that any more.

        Some may like it, it's true. But Microsoft need to learn that they can't just tell people to like change and force it on them. They need to learn that not everybody likes change, not everybody wants a ribbon, or a touch interface, or to jump through hoops to do anything.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Windows 8 FAIL

          I took delivery of a new windows machine six weeks ago. You have it spot on. It's not that the new UI was counter-intuitive to the point it was just difficult to use, but for work it was near impossible.

          I can't imagine any corporation taking the hit on productivity by taking on this mess.

          1. Levente Szileszky
            Thumb Up

            Re: Windows 8 FAIL

            "I can't imagine any corporation taking the hit on productivity by taking on this mess."

            Bingo. I will not disrupt our entire workflow with this unfinished piece of junk, SMB3.0, the only meaningful plus, does not worth it, it isn't *that* much better at all.

            Buhbye, Ballmer - welcome, you non-beancounter successor, now get busy putting back our Start Menu or else...

          2. kb
            FAIL

            Re: Windows 8 FAIL

            I was reading a quote from an actual usability expert, one that works for one of the large software houses advising on UI design and I think she nailed it when she was asked about Win 8 and said

            "Windows 8 is designed for content consumption rather than content creation and multitasking. Whereas content consumption can easily be done on other media, such as tablets and phones, production and multitasking is still best suited for PCs. Windows 8 appears to ignore that."

            Honestly I couldn't have said it better, its "Microsoft WINDOW" design for single tasking mass consumption while ignoring that passive content consumption is a VERY small part of what anybody uses a PC for. Even my little old lady customers make their little calendars with the grandbabies on it or run their little chat programs while they surf so their friends can pop on and talk to them when Win 8 is strictly about trying to sell MSFT customers on an appstore and blindly buying all their content (at a pretty good markup I might add, most are even more expensive than the iOS version) from them. But MSFT can pretend all it wants, slapping a pastel paint job won't make us buy the WinPhone or Surface and all this is doing is killing OEM sales at what frankly couldn't be a worse time.

            1. dogged
              Meh

              Re: Windows 8 FAIL

              @kb - your "usability expert" seems not have noticed the Desktop. At all.

              Makes you wonder about these "experts".

        2. streaky Silver badge
          Boffin

          Re: Windows 8 FAIL

          "a fair portion of the existing market for office migrated to libreoffice or openoffice"

          Not the paying market.

          Re: This whole story - Microsoft seem to have missed the fundamental point that not everybody wants or needs a tablet. If I can't play BF3 @1920x1200 and spend all day writing code on a device it's probably no use to me, and it is a market that makes up maybe 90% of windows' desktop market that isn't enterprise. And the enterprise hates it. So that's tablets done. The OS? Too much touch - waiting for Leap.

          iPad is for casuals and people who haven't realised it yet - and it doesn't have legs. People need to stop trying to copy it.

          1. Nigel 11

            Re: Windows 8 FAIL

            "a fair portion of the existing market for office migrated to libreoffice or openoffice"

            Not the paying market.

            Give them time.

            A thing Microsoft doesn't (or won't) understand about many corporate customers is their desire for stability, upward conpatibility, and a quiet unexciting life on the IT front.

            These customers are likely still be running Office 2007 (some, 2003), often on XP. Upgrading may well mean paying to have all secretarial and non-technical staff sent on an Office 2010 course, on top of the hardware, licensing and IT staff costs.

            And if that's going to happen every 3-4 years (2003 - 2007 - 2010 - ??) maybe 2003 or 2007 - Openoffice starts to look attractive?

            1. Rattus Rattus

              @Nigel 11

              Indeed, the organisation I work in has not yet completed migrating from XP to Windows 7, nor have we quite finished our migration from Office 2003 to 2010. I cannot imagine we will be migrating to Windows 8 at all, though by the time Windows 9 is out we MIGHT be ready to start planning our next migration.

          2. JEDIDIAH
            Linux

            Re: Windows 8 FAIL

            Something like msoffice depends on the perception that everyone needs it. Once people realize that they don't need a particular iteration of Word Perfect level overkill for their personal documents, much of the reason for people to use the perceived monopoly evaporates.

        3. The Godfather
          Happy

          Re: Windows 8 FAIL

          Perfectly and lucidly put...

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Windows 8 FAIL

        If you don't like the interface, that's your right but the OS is fine.

        Well the problem with Windows (and OSX too) is that the user interface is an integral part of the OS. Don't like it? You're out of luck, gotta live with it anyway. Since the user interface and the underlying OS are so tightly coupled, IMHO it makes perfect sense to declare the whole lot "rubbish" if one thinks that either part is rubbish (I'm not saying Win8 is rubbish, mind you: I didn't try it yet).

      3. This post has been deleted by a moderator

        1. Dave 126 Silver badge

          Re: Windows 8 FAIL

          >Well the problem with Windows (and OSX too) is that the user interface is an integral part of the OS. Don't like it? You're out of luck, gotta live with it anyway.

          It seems fairly straight forward to install a 3rd party Start Menu replacement.

          > Then why has the market rejected Windows 8 on both mobile and desktop? Are you correct and the market somehow wrong?

          Don't throw stones if you live a glass house, Eadon. There could be plenty of reasons for people not buying Win8 (waiting to see how the hardware plays out / comes down in cost being just one of them) just as there valid reason that not everyone uses Linux on their desktop- and that's free of charge.

          By the argument you've just given ("the market knows best") then Linux on desktops must be absolutely awful. Since it isn't, then your argument must be faulty.

          1. Richard Plinston Silver badge

            Re: Windows 8 FAIL

            > It seems fairly straight forward to install a 3rd party Start Menu replacement.

            You can _add_ to the UI but you can't 'replace' it. TIFKAM is still there it just doesn't show up as often.

            You can add KDE to Windows too, but this doesn't replace the UI, you are stuck with it.

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            @Dave 126

            It seems fairly straight forward to install a 3rd party Start Menu replacement.

            You seem to assume that TIFKAM is the only problem with the Windows UI (and thus that pre-Win8 Windows UIs had no problems).

            Sorry to burst your bubble but the Windows UI lacks so many basic features that I don't even know where to begin the list. Oh sure there are probably some programs out there that partially implement those missing features in a clumsy way but that doesn't quite cut it.

            Want an example? I tried several programs supposed to allow me to scroll a window or a control without focusing it first. No luck, none of them work correctly. Same goes with a number of other features that I tried to "fix" using 3rd party programs.

            Conclusion: when I have to use Windows I'm stuck with a sub-par UI and I gotta live with it.

            1. dogged
              WTF?

              Re: @Dave 126

              I tried several programs supposed to allow me to scroll a window or a control.

              Seems pretty easy to me. I'm no WPF expert but I'm pretty certain I could make that happen, although to be fair the window or control in question would still fire events during scrolling.

      4. maxpowers43

        Re: Windows 8 FAIL

        "Win7 which was itself rather good"

        rather good? for windows OS maybe, but not for OS's in general. you saying so shows you're just another brainwashed MS slave.

      5. JEDIDIAH
        Linux

        Re: Windows 8 FAIL

        "The OS is fine" is not really a good argument.

        You can use that same type of argument with VMS, Solaris, or Linux but it's not exactly going to get you anywhere.

        The "shell" is what users are going to interact with. If that sucks or doesn't adequately address their expertise with the last 10 versions of the product, then you are going to have trouble. No amount of weak excuses are going to change that.

        Microsoft finally finds itself in a position where it can no longer dictate. Users now realize that they have other options and that they aren't trapped into being "DOS compatible".

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Windows 8 FAIL

      @Eadon - You were complaining the other day that MS surface cost too much to be a serious contender, but now your complaining that it's competing with the OEMs.

      Try to think your arguments through before using them.

      1. This post has been deleted by a moderator

        1. hitmouse

          Re: Windows 8 FAIL

          @Eadon " Furthermore, MS are competing on an unlevel playing field, MS don't have to pay licence fees for their OS. And they can use API's for their own kit that they may make unavailable to OEMs. They can tweak Windows to give their own kit an unfair advantage, in terms of speed, features, training their own developers, etc."

          I guess they're competing with Apple's similarly closed OS and API arrangements.

          1. This post has been deleted by a moderator

            1. Super Hans
              Pint

              Re: Windows 8 FAIL

              Eadon I think you need a holiday mate. I can just imagine the steam blowing out you ears every time you see the word Microsoft. You will give yourself a heart attack. I think Windows 8 is crap too but it ain't life and death. Take few deep breaths and chill out......

              1. Grogan

                Re: Windows 8 FAIL

                It is life and death to me... Microsoft is RUINING the computing industry. This is the worst thing they have ever tried to do and I have nothing but hatred for the greedy cunts.

                Think beyond the queer user interface, there is something far more ominous in intent. The Microsoft Store. All "Windows 8" (Metro) apps have to go through them, and developers have to pay them homage.

                Microsoft is trying to turn computers into dumbed down, locked down devices that they control. They are trying to force a change in the industry, and seize control at this crossroads. I'm glad that vendors aren't playing into their hands.

                I've always hated Microsoft, but now it is a darker, and more seething hatred. Anything I can do to cost Microsoft money is my pleasure. (and I do, wherever my work gives me the opportunity)

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: Windows 8 FAIL

                  "All "Windows 8" (Metro) apps have to go through them, and developers have to pay them homage."

                  Apple is doing the same with iTunes and Apple software. Why not piss on that tree?

                  Luckily most o/t time Microsoft's Store doesn't even work. I have 2 clients with Win 8. Tried the Store at one client and all it kept giving was an error message. We had input even credit-details et all to no avail. We just couldn't get something to install (paid or free). It even baffles me.

                  So yeah, it is a fiasco.

                  Maybe it's good that these corps get a bit knackered up. They could do with a small lesson in humility.

                  1. Rattus Rattus

                    @AC

                    "Apple is doing the same with iTunes and Apple software. Why not piss on that tree?"

                    Because Apple only have a tiny fraction of the desktop market. Nobody really cares what they do. If Microsoft are allowed to get away with locking down the desktop market like that, it bodes ill for the continuation of the PC as a general-purpose computing device. Desktop PCs will gradually become like the locked-down Windows RT tablets with signed bootloaders ensuring you only run an authorised operating system which will only allow you to run authorised applications. It is Palladium all over again, just a few years later.

            2. Manu T

              Re: Windows 8 FAIL

              "and some OEMs will be adapting Android for desktop too"

              Which is completely ridiculous!

              There's a vast array of fantastic free REAL linux OS's around which are MUCH better suited to "the desktop".

              The only reason why it may succeed is because o/t games. Android is getting its fair share of games. If these become available on desktop Android (preferably without any hassle) coupled with the fact that you can "sideload" a lot of stuff, then that will push Android forward.

              Like it were the games that pushed the Amiga forward in the past, later on games pushed the desktop PC (anyone remember the voodoo rage...) and now these push both the iProducts and Android.

      2. Richard Plinston Silver badge

        Re: Windows 8 FAIL

        > but now your [sic] complaining that it's competing with the OEMs.

        Surface _is_ competing with the OEMs, _and_ it costs too much. OEMs would find it difficult to make equivalent devices at those prices or cheaper. Apple can make iPads at those prices because it has built up an effective supply chain and distribution channel and it has the economies of scale. Android tablets can be inexpensive because the specs can be fitted around what is available.

        For WinRT and Win8 tablets MS has laid down specs that require specific suppliers and even specific parts. The OEMs can not even choose which ARM suppliers to use, MS dictates that. Also each OEM has to have its own design so the manufacturing cannot get reasonable volumes to reduce costs.

        In addition they have to send a fairly heavy licence fee to MS which is around 20% of the cost. By the time wholesale and retail margins are added anything the OEMs would produce would be as much or more than Surface.

        Plus MS have cut the OEMs and retailers out of the software reselling market for W8 apps and taken all that revenue for themselves.

        > Try to think your arguments through before using them.

        Try to grow a clue, Surface (and other WinRT and Win8 tablets) are too expensive to compete in the iPad and Android markets, or even against laptops, _AND_ MS is trying to take OEMs' and retailers' revenue both with hardware and by locking in software sales to itself.

    5. Heathroi
      Facepalm

      Re: Windows 8 FAIL

      they need to make two changes 1 strip TIFKAM from win8 for laptops and desktops 2 include it for touchscreen based systems. how hard would that be?

  3. DrStrangeLug
    FAIL

    Windows 8 suffers from one big problem - MS wanted in on phone and tablet sales.

    I was being shown windows 8 laptop by a salesdroid over xmas and I was stroking the screen trying to get it to respond .

    "It's not a touch screen" the droid said

    "It's a touch screen user interface" I replied

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Which suggests that you agree that MS' argument is the case - generic hardware was supplied to run W8 when it should have been a bit more special.

      The HP envi looks pretty good, touchscreen, trackpad, keyabord, detachable tablet section.

    2. John70

      When I went to look at Windows 8 at PC World, nearly all laptops with Windows 8 were not touch screen.

      To me it looked like the hardware manufacturers just dumped Windows 8 on old hardware (I mean hardware created for Windows 7) to try and sell old stock.

      1. Roland6 Silver badge

        Touch screen laptops

        Windows 7 has supported touch screen since launch, so I suggest the lack of Win7/Win8 touch-screen laptops (and desktops) is saying something about both the actual demand for touch-screens and the price point implications of installing them.

        Interestingly, the only times I use a desktop's touch screen is when I'm guiding a user through something, as it means I don't need to wrestle the mouse away from them. Also the user tends to stay engaged, whilst when you take over the mouse they tend to sit back and relax...

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Touch screen laptops

          Most of the workstations around the office have 2 mice(?) attached for exactly this reason! Well spotted sir.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Stop

      are you ok?

      I assume that you do not own a X-Box 360.

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I thought that flogging had been banned...

    "...Gartner said last week that during Q4 2012 Windows 8 didn’t make a “significant impact” on PC shipments and other analysts said sales of Windows 8 are lagging Windows 7.

    Now Microsoft is planning to reboot its launch of Windows 8 next month. On Tuesday the company gave 9 February as the date for the US and Canada unveiling of the Intel-powered Surface Pro tablets. But sources tell us Microsoft is actually preparing for a February “relaunch” of Windows 8..."

    Its dead, Micro-Dudes, from EFI bios, through schizophrenic UI, to less than inspiring apps...

    1. Adam 1 Silver badge

      Re: I thought that flogging had been banned...

      Maybe sp1 with a start menu?

      I can dream can't I?

      1. Andrew Baines Silver badge
        Boffin

        It's no the lack of start that's the problem

        I've been using Windows 8 on non-touchscreen PC and laptops for a while now.

        Not missing the start button, typing what I need is quicker and made me realise how I'd stopped using the Start button in windows 7, preferring to search.

        BIG problem is that the 'modern' apps don't appear in the task bar, so as soon as you're using a mixture of 'modern' and 'proper' apps, switching becomes fiddly.

        For me, HyperV was enough of a reason to upgrade, but not convinced many people care about that!

        1. Jonathan 29

          Re: It's no the lack of start that's the problem

          I appreciate HyperV is probably better, but I still use WindowsXP mode a lot. Losing it means finding a legit copy of XP somewhere.

        2. Roland6 Silver badge

          Re: It's no the lack of start that's the problem - HyperV

          But Hyper-V Server 2012 is available from MS as a free download ...

      2. Lusty Silver badge

        Re: I thought that flogging had been banned...

        "Maybe sp1 with a start menu?"

        It's got a start menu. Try it you might like it, but until you actually use it stop knocking it. The start menu functionality is the same as in Windows 7 except it's full screen.

        1. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge
          WTF?

          Re: I thought that flogging had been banned...

          > it's full screen.

          Full screen might have been appropriate 10 years ago, on 640x480 screens, but when I have a twin-head setup with dual 1920x1200 monitors there is no excuse for anything being 'full screen", unless perhaps I request a video to be displayed that way.

          1. Lusty Silver badge
            FAIL

            Re: I thought that flogging had been banned...

            @phil o'sophical what exactly is it you're doing on your monitor while using the start menu? Telemetry (customer improvement program) from Windows 7 told MS that once start was pressed people never used anything else while start was open (dead giveaway, if you do start closes!). If you've found a way to use the start menu while also working on other things then perhaps you should let them know and stop whining about it?

        2. Robert Ramsay
          Pint

          Re: I thought that flogging had been banned...

          That was what I realised the first time I used one. Basically, Microsoft asked themselves "How can we put in a touch interface with the fewest number of places where we change the code?"

          Answer - whip out the Start Menu and directly replace it with the "Modern" UI!

        3. Chad H.

          Re: I thought that flogging had been banned...

          Re "start menu", tried it, didn't like a pointless full screen view when it just needed a fraction of the space.

          All windows 8 needed to be a contender is a proper classic shell - allow desktop by default and stop throwing us out of it when we want to run another program.

          1. JEDIDIAH
            Linux

            Re: I thought that flogging had been banned...

            > All windows 8 needed to be a contender is a proper classic shell - allow desktop by default and stop throwing us out of it when we want to run another program.

            The perfect approach would have been for the device to look like an old copy of Win7 so long as you had a mouse connected or the screen vertical and have the thing switch to touch the moment you actually touched it. Use the magic of computer automation to guess what approach was best for the given situation and allow the user to easily override.

            No one was clamouring for a tabletized desktop. Plenty of people were clamouring for a tablet that can be an old school desktop when needed.

            "Wrong Way Peachfuzz"

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Windows

            Re: I thought that flogging had been banned...

            yes, I concur. There's a number of changes that should be done. Two of them is a return of the Start Button/Menu for the desktop version, and the ability to choose if one boots into Metro/Modern UI or not.

            If MS allows us to configure our machines as we see fit, they will have more happy customers.

            Of course some people have no intention of being "pleased."

        4. Anonymous Coward
          Windows

          Re: I thought that flogging had been banned...

          yes, but not everyone want's to flip back to Metro in order to get to the start menu. Despite the internal research, despite that some prefer to use a search function instead of the start menu, some people used it and don't like it gone.

          So given people's response, it is useless for MS to dictate personal preferences like that. MS needs to keep in mind that if X person want's to configure the OS in X way, that they should attempt to allow such where at all possible.

          and yes, I am using Windows 8 right now....

        5. kb
          Stop

          Re: I thought that flogging had been banned...

          It does NOT have a start screen, it may be labeled "start" but in terms of functionality it should be called a "task panel" as that is what it is. Can you launch ANY application from it? No? Then sorry but it ain't a start screen, its a task panel. Same as the "charms bar" is a SIDEBAR, it comes from the side, has gadgets on it, no different than the Vista sidebar except it auto-hides which isn't enough for a full on rename.

          This is one of the many problems with "WinME the second coming" in that its obvious a good 90% of the changes are for tablets and cellphones. Not running it on a tablet or cellphone? Then its made of frustration and fail. ironically those that run it on a tablet don't care for it much either as the "desktop app" has to be used (settings are scattered between it and metro task panel for example) and as it has been since XP Tablet Edition the desktop metaphor just doesn't work well on a tablet.

          Even though I don't care for or own any Apple products I have to give them credit, they didn't just jam OSX onto a tablet and call it a day, all MSFT did was bolt a half baked tablet UI on top of their desktop UI thus breaking both. great job MSFT, first OS since WinME I'm actively avoiding, even Vista wasn't THIS bad.

  5. Mike Brown

    more proof

    that MS know they are in trouble, but dont have any real way to fix it

    1. Ledswinger Silver badge
      Meh

      Re: more proof

      "MS know they are in trouble, but dont have any real way to fix it"

      I think that's harsh, even unfair. For all their faults, MS are trying to evolve towards a post PC world, where there are multiple input modes - touch, voice, keyboards, mice, and Kinect style controllers, and where the centrality of monolithic PC's is diluted by laptops, tablets, and phones.

      W8 is admittedly a rather unsatisfactory compromise as issued, and if they only offered an easy "in the box" ability to switch between touch + app, and traditional desktop mode, then things might have been a bit better (for myself I'm happy with the Classic Shell add on). But for all the IT-types round here who whine about it, you have to wonder what happened to the days when IT was about enabling new technologies, and dragging the enterprise into the future? To judge by the love for XP, your average corporate IT function is desperate to stay in 2001.

      The users are revolting (more so than usual) with a probably mythical head of steam for BYOD, but even though that's overplayed, where's the noise coming from? Probably a reaction of opinion forming users to the stick in the muds of IT trying to foist brick like Thinkpads, XP, and Blackberries onto users who have seen better, and want it.

      So who is the real problem here? IT pros who can't keep up with the times, or Microsoft for having the temerity to try and evolve a bit?

      1. nematoad Silver badge
        Unhappy

        Re: more proof

        "So who is the real problem here? IT pros who can't keep up with the times, or Microsoft for having the temerity to try and evolve a bit?"

        Well I think I know who 's position I would rather be in, and it ain't Microsoft's.

        Technology is all well and good but it is a means and not an end. Companies and people want to use their computers as tools to do "real" work, not live on the bleeding edge of technology, that's for the hackers of this world.

        IT departments. have a poor reputation for being inflexible, resistant to change and not having the user as a priority. This may well be the perception, but don't forget the IT department has a job and a responsibility to the rest of the organisation.

        It's the guardian of the security of the data held and must make sure that anything new coming along is fit for purpose and will not pose a risk to the company's most valued information. Stuff must be tested and guaranteed to be safe and if that means a delay in rolling out the latest and greatest, well sorry, but if the brown stuff goes into orbit after a security breach you can guess where the finger of blame will point.

        Generally IT departments do as their management directs, this may seem to be obstructionist to someone eager to get the latest fix for their work, but again, safety first.

        Don't forget also, it's the company that makes the decision on what to buy and how to deploy IT resources. After all they are picking up the bill.

        As for MS it seems as if they can't find their own arse with a map, at least not Apple's recent offering, and are floundering around blaming everyone but themselves for the long predicted flop that is Windows 8. Like Ubuntu and Gnome they definitely seem to be heading down the wrong track and folks are not following.

        Wonder how long before the penny drops.

        1. Steve Todd

          Re: more proof

          If MS hadn't gone out of their way to force TIFKAM down our throats and disable the old Start desktop interface then there wouldn't have been the fuss. THAT'S what has got them into trouble. They could have got away with a system where touchscreen and tablet users got TIFKAM by default and everyone else got a conventional desktop.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Pint

            Re: more proof

            concur.

            I don't necessarily mind booting into Metro as it does give one a very quick overview of some data and it is very easy to switch to the desktop. However not everyone may have the same inclination, and I do agree that it should be the consumers choice what they boot into. I do also concur that removing the Start Button/Menu was a bad choice on MS's part.

        2. Ledswinger Silver badge

          Re: more proof@nematoad

          All valid comments, and ones with which I have a lot of sympathy. But much of the "guardian of security of the data" arguments now read a bit like the the sort of stuff that gets the H&S staff such a bad name. IT remains a function that often overlooks that it is only as good as its reputation, not its reality. That's why outsourcing the help desk is so often a disaster, because they are the people who are the first point of contact.

          And in this context, the obsession with testing and sticking with the safe tend to work against IT. Rolling out a new OS in a big business can be a big deal, but when the directors want access on their iPads there's always a work around. And when a new OS, new hardware or anything better or cooler is being "tested", it's always the senior IT bods who volunteer to test the kit. How selfless! Can't be important for the CIO or his reports to have secure reliable IT, so they'll be the guinea pigs.

          It is a challenge to be on top of the new, and run a secure reliable IT service, but I'm simply not convinced that most CIO's try hard enough. That isn't a plea for everybody or anybody to roll out W8,m but just an observation that IT professionals are playing catchup, and seem widely reluctant to embrace a future that seems more diverse, and moving away from the comfortable world of standardisation that we currently see as the route to the goals of low cost and security.

          1. nematoad Silver badge

            Re: more proof@nematoad

            "it's always the senior IT bods who volunteer to test the kit"

            At the one place I worked where we had the senior managers on-site they used what everyone else used, as they needed to get stuff done and could not afford to have a new piece of kit fold up under them.

            Their work was just too important.

            The people who did get to play with the new stuff were generally the team leaders and senior support staff, even then it was a case of using the new kit as a secondary device or program, not the primary.

            As safety was the prime consideration, you don't want dodgy kit running an oil refinery, we were VERY careful about rolling out new stuff, even if the users were screaming blue murder. It got tested and screened and then sent to another team to verify, before it was even put to the Change Committee.

            So yes, in a one-man-band or very small company it might be OK to give new stuff to everybody, but having worked at very sensitive sites, i.e. places that could blow up or in the financial industry, the IT department was ultra-cautious in changing anything unless it had been thoroughly vetted. We had no choice, that was what our bosses told us to do.

        3. Davidoff
          WTF?

          It's the guardian of the security of the data held

          Yeah, right. That's probably the reason why IE6 was still the mandated browser in many companies when the non-corporate rest of the world had long moved on, right?

          If IT departments were the 'Guardians of Security' then they would implement processes to test and roll out updates quickly, they would stay on top of developments (not only in the IT security field) or start working on migration plans early on (when the successor product comes out).

          The reality is that many (most?) IT departments is that it's mostly driven by cost-cutting and lazyness. That's why they are still on Windowsxp (an 11 year OS with worse security than it's three generations of successors), that's why they keep mediocre virus scanners like Sophos or McAffee deployed (which have terrible detecion rates but are simple to manage), and that's also the reason why migrations are pushed down the road until it is almost to late. Whatever makes life easy, unless of course someone who's at a level where he can make life of an IT bod quite miserable comes along and asks for a favor of course, then the sky's the limit.

          It doesn't have to be done this way (I worked on a place that had a very good IT department), but the above attitude unfortunately is not an exception but the norm.

          1. Corinne
            Stop

            Re: It's the guardian of the security of the data held

            "...it's mostly driven by cost-cutting and lazyness. That's why they are still on Windowsxp (an 11 year OS with worse security than it's three generations of successors), that's why they keep mediocre virus scanners like Sophos or McAffee deployed (which have terrible detecion rates but are simple to manage), and that's also the reason why migrations are pushed down the road until it is almost to late. Whatever makes life easy, ..."

            Lumping cost cutting and laziness together like they are the same thing, and the "fault" of the same people, isn't really accurate.

            Despite most large companies now being completely dependant on their IT, it is still often looked on as a non-productive overhead & as such is the first to be hit by the cost-cutting hammer. The cost of rolling out a new OS in a large company isn't exactly cheap (hint, it's an awful lot more than the costs of the license!), and the bigger the change from a user point of view the more expensive & disruptive it is, which is why many go with the old "if it ain't broke don't fix it" view and are still on XP.

          2. Richard Plinston Silver badge

            Re: It's the guardian of the security of the data held

            > IT departments is that it's mostly driven by cost-cutting and lazyness.

            Most IT departments are not part of 'the business' and are merely a cost that has to be borne by the revenue generating departments. Thus IT has to be grudgedly given budgets to work within.

          3. nematoad Silver badge

            Re: It's the guardian of the security of the data held

            "The reality is that many (most?) IT departments is that it's mostly driven by cost-cutting and lazyness."

            I'm talking from experience of working at some of the largest companies in the world.

            At one site we had over 4500 users and 2500 PCs and servers etc. And that was just one site with dozens spread all over the world.

            So yes, things did take a while to go through the system but it's like a huge oil tanker, you can't just put on the brakes. In this case size does matter and although the average user only saw his or her own little piece of the picture, in reality we did the job as fast as we could coupled with all the security and safety considerations needed on a site where it could literally explode or cause serious risk to life if something went wrong.

            Cost cutting may be a goal in many industries but it this particular instance the results could have been catastrophic.

      2. a cynic writes...

        Re: more proof

        That would be Microsoft (obviously).

        I got enough wails of protest when my users were faced with the ribbon for the first time I'd rather not think about the wailing and gnashing of teeth if I handed them Windows 8 as is. Yes I could add "Classic Shell" to every desk top in the same way that back in the day I had a DesktopX setup. But really why should I bother? Windows 7 works well and has years of life in it.

        The reality is MS does have a way to fix this but won't. They just need to add the option to choose which interface to use at boot (like my Ubuntu setup at home) and keep the upgrade price down. For £25 each I'd be willing to upgrade our machines and if they discovered it themselves I reckon a fair few of my users would be happy with TIFKAM if they discovered it for themselves. If I imposed it by diktat - not a chance.

        Unfortunately for any of that to happen MS will have to admit they cocked up. I'm not going to hold my breath.

        1. Snapper

          Re: more proof

          @ a cynic writes -

          A very well written dose of reality Sir!

      3. Joefish
        Facepalm

        Re: I think that's harsh, even unfair.

        > For all their faults, MS are trying to evolve towards a post PC world,

        > where there are multiple input modes - touch, voice, keyboards, mice,

        > and Kinect style controllers.

        And when your key market is businesses running cube farms that's a really, really stupid thing to do. If this were MS reaching out to the gadget-hungry manager or trendy blogger with a sideline in mobile devices then it could be judged on its merits. But it's not. It's them trying to foist their all-fits-one-size approach on everyone and it's unravelling their business.

        Now, back to what I was trying to remember - where did 'blaming every else' come on that list of 'how to spot a sociopath' I saw the other week?

      4. Levente Szileszky
        WTF?

        Re: more proof

        "So who is the real problem here? IT pros who can't keep up with the times, or Microsoft for having the temerity to try and evolve a bit?"

        Aye, just keep blaming someone else for your shit-quality product called 'times' we cannot keep up with...

        ...wait, are you talking about us, CTOs (or CIOs, Director of ITs etc) who are so afraid of change that we are even willing to switch to linux or anything else if we get a proper GUI, with desktop, Start Menu etc, instead of rolling out this pile of dual-desktop'd, half-baked broken PoS an undergrad student wouldn't dare to submit in school?

      5. Richard Plinston Silver badge

        Re: more proof

        > you have to wonder what happened to the days when IT was about enabling new technologies,

        Windows 8, Windows RT, Surface, touch screens are _NOT_ 'new technologies'. Everything in there has been around for years, some of it even from MS. Windows touch tablets have been available for a decade but have failed in the market because Windows software, the stuff users actually care about, just doesn't work well with touch.

        IT has been 'enabling' iPads and Androids for quite some time and MS is trying to catch up. It was told by consultants that WP7 failed to sell well because the UI was 'unfamiliar'. To fix that they embarked on a crusade to make it "the most familiar UI" by forcing it down the throats of Windows users. Once the users grow to love it (or die!) they will _demand_ it on their tablets and phones and MS will destroy Apple and Google.

        Even the animated tiles of TIFKAM are not 'new technologies', Windows 98 had 'active desktop' which was rejected en mass.

    2. Lars Silver badge
      Coat

      Re: more proof

      I think Microsoft is in a "you can't have your cake and eat it too" situation.

      The would like to make billions on hardware too, like Apple, but they are alienating the OEMs, the original source of their success yesterday. And why should they not try to invent something new and fantastic. But the way they do it alienates their users too. I would accept the ribbon if I could get rid of it once and for all, easily.

      I remember Gates was so impressed with the same Windows for every device. Sounds more like a way to cut costs than anything else.

  6. This post has been deleted by its author

  7. adnim Silver badge

    Form over substance

    "As market conditions evolve, we will continue to work in tandem with PC makers on creating successful and compelling campaigns."

    They should concentrate on creating a compelling product

    1. janimal
      Pint

      Re: Form over substance

      Wish I could multiple up-vote!

      +10

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Who are M$ ?

    I'm old (well middle-aged) , I'm suffering from (premature) senility . My wife and kids keep telling me this.

    I can remember that I've been using Ubuntu for several years, I just can't for the life of me remember what I was using before that .

    Might it have been this M$ Windows I keep hearing about ? I understand you have to pay for it . When I looked at it on my daughter's laptop I just found it so hard to use compared to my Ubuntu 10.04. Why would I want to pay for that ?

    Please help me , don't tell me that I used to pay to use that stuff, that would really upset me. Although the great thing about senility is I guess I'd soon forget about it , and just carry on using Ubuntu.

    1. Kiwi
      Linux

      Re: Who are M$ ?

      "don't tell me that I used to pay to use that stuff"

      It's like smoking. I used to pay through the nose to pump all sorts of vile filth into my body. Same with windows, I used to pay through the nose to have MS rubbish on my system.

      I also used to pay through the nose for medical bills thanks to my smoking. Same with Windows, lots of time and money wasted on "doctors bills" in the sense of AV, security and such extras that have to be bolted on.

      Fresh air is free.

      A quick, reliable and secure system is also free.

  9. Wibble
    Childcatcher

    Microsoft's conceited arrogance...

    Microsoft seem to become more arrogant as time passes. When Microsoft produced Windows XP in 2001, they shipped it with two interfaces; Fisher-Price and Windows 2000. Looking at it now, there's hardly any difference, but obviously enough to concern Microsoft about alienating their user community.

    Now wind forwards eleven years... Microsoft produce a radically different UI that will take most people a *lot* of getting used to -- and that's ignoring the valid argument that it's an inappropriate 'touch' UI foisted on a Keyboard/Mouse/Window interface.

    This time Microsoft are so arrogant that they make not the slightest concession to people used to their "old" way of doing things. They produce a radically new operating system, Windows RT, which requires a leap of faith that you'll be able to get applications, and charge MORE than the market leading iPad.

    Microsoft only have themselves to blame for this self-made mess.

    It beggars belief that Microsoft can't see what's happening.

    1. Chris 3

      Re: Microsoft's conceited arrogance...

      Well, to be fair, they have included the non-Metro trad interface for people who would like it.

      However to also be fair; my experience trying to help a couple of non-techy folk who have recently had to replace their laptops is that they are completely completely baffled by Windows 8 and hate it. I ended up having to install a Start menu add on for them.

      I mean whose smart idea was it to hide Settings etc. under a completely undiscoverable hot-corner?

      1. Tim Parker

        Re: Microsoft's conceited arrogance...

        "I mean whose smart idea was it to hide Settings etc. under a completely undiscoverable hot-corner?"

        ...possibly a break-away faction from the GNOME 3 developers ?

      2. Ragarath
        WTF?

        Re: Microsoft's conceited arrogance...

        I mean whose smart idea was it to hide Settings etc. under a completely undiscoverable hot-corner?

        Ah! you mean the hot corners it tells you about when installed? I take it you failed to relay this to the said people hence their difficulty (I take it you installed it).

        However to also be fair; my experience trying to help a couple of non-techy folk who have recently had to replace their laptops is that they are completely completely baffled by Windows 8 and hate it. I ended up having to install a Start menu add on for them.

        Again, you tried foisting something on someone without first knowing how to use it yourself and then training the people concerned (btw it takes 15 minutes at most to explain the differences).

        I find that it is actually faster for what I need to do now I have learn't how to use it. Desktop / Metro switching is a pain but only takes using the machine for 10 minutes to get used to. Again the shut down being in settings is just silly. But if you don't understand the OS yourself why are you trying to put it on peoples PC's?

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Microsoft's conceited arrogance...

          @Ragarath

          Basic user interface principles state that if you can interact with something, then it ought to be differentiated in some way from the non-interactive bits. Generally this is done with underlines, colours, animation, boxes, etc. If it's somewhere you are likely to move your mouse over frequently, you can resort to something that happens only when you mouseover it, a corner isn't generally where you move your mouse a lot though.

          Telling you about it when you install it is not enough!

          1. Ragarath
            FAIL

            Re: Microsoft's conceited arrogance... @AC

            Basic user interface principles state that if you can interact with something, then it ought to be differentiated in some way from the non-interactive bits. Generally this is done with underlines, colours, animation, boxes, etc. If it's somewhere you are likely to move your mouse over frequently, you can resort to something that happens only when you mouseover it, a corner isn't generally where you move your mouse a lot though.

            Telling you about it when you install it is not enough!

            Why is telling you about it not enough? Is your memory that bad?

            Also why do you expect underlines, colours, animations, boxes etc. to actually do something? Can you tell me why? Yes, that's right! At some point in the past that is what someone decided would work and everyone else learn't it.

            I knew I would get down voted for putting in a pro MS post but please, this type of response is just not thinking about why we expect these conventions you mention to actually do something.

            1. janimal
              Mushroom

              Re: Microsoft's conceited arrogance... @Ragarath

              "Why is telling you about it not enough? Is your memory that bad?"

              Actually yes - why should I be discriminated against?

              "Also why do you expect underlines, colours, animations, boxes etc. to actually do something? Can you tell me why? Yes, that's right! At some point in the past that is what someone decided would work and everyone else learn't it."

              And all those thousands of experiments in a field called HCI (Human Computer Interaction) conducted since the mid 1970's.

              1. Ragarath

                Re: Microsoft's conceited arrogance... @Ragarath

                Right so if you were told that this screen is interactive you would not work out how? It seems to me it is the person that is lacking if they cannot work it out. The visual queue is rather quick you know.

                1. janimal
                  FAIL

                  Re: Microsoft's conceited arrogance... @Ragarath

                  >"It seems to me it is the person that is lacking if they cannot work it out. "

                  That works both ways.

                  oh and it is visual CUE btw

                  1. Ragarath
                    FAIL

                    Re: Microsoft's conceited arrogance... @janimal

                    Thanks for the word correction, was typing fast as was doing something else, my mind was not fully on the task. And there is no need for veiled insults either. I understand where you are coming from but you fail to look at it from my side at all.

                    Would it be improved with a small indicator in the top right yes perhaps, but I assert this is for people that do not like to be shown new things and then remember them. Now that we know of this method of interaction, and if a new device came with no indicators, but you knew it was touch, would you not try this method? I know I would.

                    Yes it may be different but that is how things change we adapt and learn. Did you know how to drive a car just by looking at it for example?

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Microsoft's conceited arrogance...

        "I mean whose smart idea was it to hide Settings etc. under a completely undiscoverable hot-corner?"

        Someone who never uses it. Same with the start button, the up button, English.

    2. hitmouse

      Re: Microsoft's conceited arrogance...

      " This time Microsoft are so arrogant that they make not the slightest concession to people used to their "old" way of doing things."

      While I agree with this to an extent, there reality is that a) for most of the PC era, the market for new users has exceeded the market of current users, and that is where the design specs are targetted; 2) PC users have shown themselves willing to dive into foreign mobile interfaces on iOS and Android, plus on home media centres.

      The biggest markets for the old style interface are mostly in huge corporations where special install images are generally made to lay down a custom version of Windows and approved programs.

      1. Roland6 Silver badge

        Re: Microsoft's conceited arrogance...

        "The biggest markets for the old style interface are mostly in huge corporations where special install images are generally made to lay down a custom version of Windows and approved programs"

        Which also happen to be the markets that deliver most of MS's revenues ...

      2. Wibble
        Paris Hilton

        Existing vs "new" "users"**

        @hitmouse

        > ...the market for new users has exceeded the market of current users

        Really? Just where are these "new" "users"** hiding? Anyone in work will be using Windows (tips nod to minority of Mac & Linix people) and by definition these will have used Windows, i.e. they're not new. Similarly for the computing at home crowd; most of them already have their computer systems and again, most of these will be Windows machines.

        Apart from unborn babies or undiscovered tribes in the Amazon, where do these Windows virgins come from?

        What's odd is that apparently the user interface had to be completely redesigned for these mythical people.

        ** Only two groups of people call their customers users: the IT industry and drugs pushers.

    3. Roland6 Silver badge

      Re: Microsoft's conceited arrogance...

      I blame Bill Gates!!!

      It's odd that MS seem to be increasingly missing the point since Bill stepped back, the lack of a Classic interface in Office 2007 would seem to indicate the start of the rot...

  10. NightFox

    It's all very well MS dictating hardware spec to its OEMs for Windows 8, and those OEMs may well look to providing that level of hardware support in the future. But let's face it - the run up to Christmas was the trasitionery period when all the OEMs were ever going to do was shoehorn Windows 8 onto their end-of-life Windows 7 stock to give it a new lease of life.

    1. Tom 7 Silver badge

      Windows 7 stock?

      W7 stock is generally pretty powerful. I personally cannot see why the so called glaringly simple interface of W8 requires such much more power to do... , well to do what?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Windows 7 stock?

        It doesn't require more power. My Windows 8 machine is running on the same hardware as my W7, Vista and XP had previously done. It actually requires less resources than previous OSes, other than XP, but allows you to do more than XP.

        1. Jason Hall

          Re: Windows 7 stock?

          @AC:

          "It doesn't require more power. My Windows 8 machine is running on the same hardware as my W7, Vista and XP had previously done. It actually requires less resources than previous OSes, other than XP, but allows you to do more than XP."

          I agree it seems to run slightly better than Win 7 on the same spec machines, but what the hell does Win 8 *DO MORE* than Win 7 - except piss-off the majority of it's users?

      2. El Andy

        Re: Windows 7 stock?

        @Tom 7: "W7 stock is generally pretty powerful. I personally cannot see why the so called glaringly simple interface of W8 requires such much more power to do... , well to do what?"

        The key areas where Microsoft were pushing harder was in places like vastly improved touch experiences. Most Windows 7 machines with touch suffer from awful lag, poor detection around the edges of the screen and often quite low touch resolution. All of which leads to a poor experience. It's in meeting the requirements for a decent touch screen that OEMs are grumbling about, which is also the reason they aren't just shipping Windows RT on their cheapo Android hardware, which just doesn't cut the mustard for a quality experience.

        1. BitDr

          Re: Windows 7 stock?

          "Most Windows 7 machines with touch suffer from awful lag, poor detection around the edges of the screen and often quite low touch resolution."

          Ummmm... so would W7 also perform badly with a really kick-butt capacitive touch screen? If so then the problem is not the hardware.

        2. Pookietoo

          Re: they aren't just shipping Windows RT on their cheapo Android hardware

          That will be because of the restrictive boot requirement that MSFT has imposed on the RT platform, nothing to do with the other capabilities of the hardware.

        3. Richard Plinston Silver badge

          Re: Windows 7 stock?

          > they aren't just shipping Windows RT on their cheapo Android hardware

          Windows RT is written for a very limited range of specific ARM SoCs, just as WP7 was (but they are quite different ones). If the hardware isn't one of those, plus has identical support chips then it just won't work.

          Android on the other hand, can be configured and added to by the manufacturers so they can make it work any way they want with whatever hardware they choose.

          With WP7 MS had dictated the specific hardware well before the OS was ready, so even the original models were not bleeding edge. By the end they were well obsolete. Microsoft has always worked to a roughly 3 year cycle. If they don't keep developing for newer hardware at much more frequent intervals then Windows RT and WP8 will be stuck with old hardware while others take newer developments.

          With x86 this wasn't so much an issue because rate of development was so much slower.

  11. Mike 29
    Facepalm

    They don't know who their customers are

    They might have been able to sell a secure boot OS to enterprise, it's a very nice feature from a security perspective, but not with the horrible interface being rammed down their throats.

  12. Christopher Rogers
    Thumb Up

    Bought an 11" Asus Vivobook. Cracking wee laptop with an OS that fits perfectly, is intuitive to use and does not hinder my ability to carry out any tasks (that the hardware specs are capable of dealing with).

    So, frankly I'm going to back Microsoft on Windows 8.

    1. Pookietoo

      re: Bought an 11" Asus Vivobook

      Looks like a netbook to me - remember those, before MSFT killed them off? If everyone was in the market for that sort of machine (or a premium priced oversized tablet) then W8 would probably do quite well, but they aren't ...

      1. Christopher Rogers
        Windows

        Re: re: Bought an 11" Asus Vivobook

        I have a tablet. Its now a digital picture frame. I had a 17" desktop replacement laptop. Its now a media centre. I have a 6 core desktop machine. Used only for the occasional VM for work purposes.

        I never once heard of anyone replacing the rest of their devices with a netbook.

        However your point of "If everyone was in the market for that sort of machine" makes a good point. Thats why Win8 is on everything from tablets to laptops to all in one systems, because not everyone is in the market for that type of device.

    2. Christopher Rogers
      Thumb Up

      Oh and I have Windows 8 on the desktop machine. I have appended a Logitech trackpad to it.

  13. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Weird.....

    That in the post PC, "Android OS for free" era, Microsoft still thinks it has a monopoly on consumer OS!

  14. g e
    Holmes

    Perhaps if MS had offered to underwrite purchase of all unsold units...

    So the manufs could build the stuff in confidence of no stock liability.

    Oh but even MS knew that would be a stupid plan.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Perhaps if MS had offered to underwrite purchase of all unsold units...

      A large part of the problem for MS is that many of us have older computers at home that very well for our home usage. I, for instance, have a HP Pavilion dv6824ca that's 3 or 4 years old and it does everything I need and I've been running Linux on it for several years and Mint, in particular, for the past year or so.

      So, I haven't needed to upgrade my computer hardware and my software is not Microsoft. I think that First World (do we still call ourselves that?) markets are saturated with older but highly functional hardware and the choice not to use Microsoft software at home has never been easier.

      1. Pookietoo

        Re: First World (do we still call ourselves that?)

        Did we ever? It was Old World, New World and Third World, but I'm not sure that those distinctions have been clear or useful for some time now except in a historical context

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Coat

          Re: First World (do we still call ourselves that?)

          you've conflated two similar but different naming schemas.

          Old World/New World dates to around the 16th century and refers to Eurasia as Old World and everything else as the New World.

          However the First/Second/Third World is a reference to the Cold War period where the "West" is the First, the "Eastern Bloc" the Second World, and the "developing nations" the Third World.

  15. Charlie Clark Silver badge

    State capitalism

    the PCs it deemed the best were to be promoted under two labels: Hero PCs and Featured PCs

    Trying to pick winners is exactly why state capitalism so routinely fails (unless you effectively control the market). Whoever came up with that idea at Microsoft should be shown the door. MS and Intel have in the past been so successful at blanket ingredient marketing - spunking billions on marketing campaigns just as long at the right version of Windows was prominently promoted. Cash-strapped manufacturers in an infamously low-margin business are not keen on funding their own expensive ad campaigns.

    The ambitious hardware specs have, like other markets, left manufacturers little room for differentiation and forced them to take a bet that the market would love the high-end gear. However, few of them have the cash to take bets like that. Oh, and knowing that MS is picking winners and favouring the competition is hardly likely to go down well either.

  16. P. Lee Silver badge

    I think MS might be right

    I can't find a compelling laptop, even in the "ultrabook" range.

    I haven't seen one device that is powerful, thin, has a large trackpad, a hi-res 13" display and nice graphics.

    This might be a battery issue. :D

    What happened to the old "boot with discrete" or "boot with integrated" graphics?

    I also blame intel & amd. I want the ability to power off four or five of my six cores in a laptop to save juice.

    Although none of that is relevant to the success of windows 8, it just means I have no compelling reason to get a new pc.

    1. Steve Todd

      Re: I think MS might be right

      >What happened to the old "boot with discrete" or "boot with integrated" graphics?

      Graphics card manufacturers came up with ways of dynamically switching between the two depending on demand, so you get low power when you're not doing much and don't have to reboot to run a game etc.

    2. Piro

      Re: I think MS might be right

      I have a Sony Z12.

      Core i5 520M (dual core with HT 2.4GHz, turbo to 2.9), 8GB RAM, 128GB SSD (2x 64GB in RAID0), 13.1" 1600x900 screen, NVIDIA Geforce 330MGT 1GB GPU, carbon fibre body, incredibly thin, decent battery, and still has a DVD writer.

      They exist. But they're not cheap, and I completely agree, it's not easy to find them.

    3. Sooty

      Re: I think MS might be right

      "I can't find a compelling laptop, even in the "ultrabook" range.

      I haven't seen one device that is powerful, thin, has a large trackpad, a hi-res 13" display and nice graphics."

      This is exactly the thing that keeps tempting me to get a macbook pro, no-one else seems to do anything as nice hardware wise, especially now they have the retina version. I'm not a big fan of OSX so I'd probably end up putting windows 7 on it anyway.

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Coat

      Re: I think MS might be right

      "I also blame intel & amd. I want the ability to power off four or five of my six cores in a laptop to save juice."

      Now that's not true. I can power off two cores at a time in my laptop.

      Sadly that doesn't leave many left in a Core2Duo.

  17. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge
    Windows

    Expecting the "Ballmer and Generals in a Bunker" YouTube video any second

    I TOLD them what PCs to build. I TOLD them that we have to move forward! This is high treason!!! (Throws chair)

    "As market conditions evolve, we will continue to work in tandem with PC makers on creating successful and compelling campaigns.”

    Sure. How about successful and compelling products, guys.

  18. Neil Barnes Silver badge
    Holmes

    Let me get this right...

    MS designed a new operating system.

    It runs on PCs in various form factors that people won't buy because they prefer the W7 they're used to.

    And it's the fault of the PC makers?

    C'mon, guys - I'm already mad at the PC makers not offering me a choice of OS... but it's not their fault if the only OS they're allowed to offer is one that people won't use, surely?

    To be honest, I'd far rather if for *any* PC purchase - laptop, slab, desktop, whatever - there's a tick-box on the order form that says

    [ ] W7

    [ ] W8

    [ ] Nothing thank you.

    It works this way with servers; why can't it work with a four or five hundred quid laptop?

    Yes, there will be potential issues over servicing - but removing the disk and proving the system works is not a major problem, and it's reasonable to state, for example, that you don't have software maintenance if you don't buy the Windows flavour.

    1. Atonnis
      Megaphone

      Re: Let me get this right...

      The hard bit comes in when you factor in the whole OEM vs Open licensing models. There's a whole world of subsidising, driver support, etc that has to be pieced together in the OS costs.

      I totally agree that I'd want the choice, but to many, MANY people they just get a PC and want it to just work. I can see how Windows 8 is a horrible messy experience to many people - including myself, since that stupid Start screen has all the flexibility of a <insert company here>'s fanboi. However, I will be fair - Windows 8 DOES explain to you the basics of it's functionality from when you first start it up, and it's faster, lighter and smoother than Windows 7.

      The only reason I can see for Microsoft to be so daft with the Metro platform (and let's all just grow up and stop saying 'TIFKAM!! TIFKAM!!' and so inflexible is that they're bringing together the platform so it is suitable for all hardware types, including phones and the XBox. Once they get all those interoperating properly, I reckon they'll start complicating things from there (and hopefully gives us some damn FOLDER STRUCTURE ON THE "&*$ING START SCREEN GODDAMNIT!'.

    2. Chemist

      Re: Let me get this right...

      "that you don't have software maintenance if you don't buy the Windows flavour."

      Certainly I build all my own desktops/servers and install Linux on them - for years I've had NO maintenance cost other than one flaky HD

      Laptops are a more difficult matter - so far I've got by with 1 netbook (Linux from new) and 1 second-hand laptop (donated after a Windows Update disaster). I'm going to have to replace it soon-ish as various non-core bits are failing and the memory is becoming rather tight)

      I'm going to have to look around rather carefully

    3. El Andy

      Re: Let me get this right...

      @Neil Barnes: "It works this way with servers; why can't it work with a four or five hundred quid laptop?"

      Various OEMs toyed with this a few years back and eventually gave up because it ends up costing them more. They have higher support costs (yes some people really do buy a PC without an OS and wonder why it doesn't work out of the box!), it creates a more complex supply chain and they also can't make back money by pre-installing their crapware (which is something of a plus for consumers, but not so much for their bottom line)

      1. Ponmyword
        Boffin

        Re: Let me get this right...

        There are plenty of SMEs doing custom build jobs with bought in h/w, who will give you a choice of the available MS OSs or a "none" option for people to put Linux/BSD on. The "none" option is usually the cheapest version of the MS home OS with the proviso that it is wiped, so the m/c will have been tested before dispatch and can be started when it arrives.

  19. HBT

    MS has a point

    I haven't bought a Win 8 license because I haven't bought a new laptop. I haven't bought a new laptop because nobody makes one with the same screen res that I've been using for 10 years - 1920x1200..

    So I soldier on with my 2005 Pentium-M Dell Inspiron, with its gorgeous 17" 1920x1200 display, but annoyingly crap performance, bulk and loud fans.

    Get your act together., OEMs.

    1. Neil Barnes Silver badge

      Re: MS has a point

      Agreed - I ended up with the Acer with a 900*1600 17"screen simply because I couldn't find anything I could afford with better resolution. It's an improvement on the 768 by 13xx screens, but it should be the default choice these days.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        "improvement on the 768 by 13xx screens"

        But not by much:

        17" in 16:9 is approximately 15.7" in 16:10 for vertical size.

        17" in 16:9 is approximately 13.9" in 4:3 for vertical size.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: MS has a point

        @Neil Barnes

        X *THEN* Y dimensions please. It's not tricky is it?

        1. Simon Harris Silver badge

          Re: MS has a point

          @ AC 11:45

          Comparing two numbers and working out which is the larger. It's not tricky is it?

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: MS has a point

          > It's not tricky is it?

          Maybe he uses it in portrait mode?

          1. Neil Barnes Silver badge
            Coat

            Re: MS has a point

            I stand it on its side to use the screen in portrait mode, and use the keyboard like an accordion.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Crap displays...

      ...are the reason I am not buying a new laptop. My father has poor eyesight and would benefit from a screen with *more hight* but the current 17" offerings are smaller then the old 15" 4:3 ratio screen in vertical extent.

      WTF? How is this progress in the last 5 years?

    3. Sorry that handle is already taken. Silver badge

      Re: HBT

      Much as I like my similar era Inspiron's 1920x1200 pixel dimensions, I wouldn't ever call it gorgeous. It's a TN LCD panel; it actually looks rather horrible.

  20. paulc
    Linux

    No choice in PC World...

    It's Windows 8 on your windows box/lappy or an Apple box/lappy.

    No windows 7 machines at all... no Linux boxes either unless you count the stealthy Linux lurking on the routers, printers and smart TVs

    Mind you, was able to get my daughter a very decent 15.6 inch display laptop with 6G RAM and DVD writer drive for only £299; pity she could only have Windows 8 on it... I got her start menu and proper desktop back using a third party download...

  21. Sil
    Thumb Down

    Blame both

    It's fair to say both failed miserably.

    Microsoft completely failed Windows 8 launch, confusing consumers with Windows RT and the Surface, being invisible in retail and not tutoring / demoing Windows 8 at all.

    PC manufacturers were their equal self, drowning consumers under hundreds of awfull non-touch me-too pcs/notebooks/tablets with undersized batteries, ultra low res crappy screens, ultra slow hdd and only 4 GB of RAM when RAM is so cheap instead of concentrating on a few understandable product lines with decent characteristics.

    And the only exciting high end products (such as Lenovo x1tc or dell xps 12) have waiting lists for months and regularly ship one or two months late.

  22. Anonymous Coward
    Stop

    Consumers don't want it.

    end of.

    Microsoft are a dying breed, Their products are irrelevant now and consumers are voting with their wallets. Their dubious buiness practices of years gone by have now come back to bite them in the ass.

    Nobody wants Windows, Xbox, Zune, Surface, Windows Phone etc. Consumers are WAY to wary of their lock-ins,

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Facepalm

      Re: Consumers don't want it.

      "consumers are voting with their wallets"

      Of course, because the consumer market has always been their largest??

    2. Christian Berger Silver badge

      Professionals don't want it

      In the 1990s there was at least some professional market for Windows which by now also is largely gone. (except for companies signing in for the VBA vendor lock in)

      And the people who care about their IT and have multiple computers at home, usually go straight to some Linux distribution and used Thinkpads.

      1. Davidoff
        WTF?

        Re: Professionals don't want it

        "In the 1990s there was at least some professional market for Windows which by now also is largely gone. (except for companies signing in for the VBA vendor lock in)"

        Yeah, that's why there's no professional software on Windows any more. Oh, wait...there is. In fact, the majority of professional applications are made for Windows.

        How stupid software manufacturers are, making software for a platform that has no customers. They could have saved tons of money by just listening to you.

        "And the people who care about their IT and have multiple computers at home, usually go straight to some Linux distribution..."

        This narrow-minded thinking shows that your time is worth nothing and you don't have to use your home computers to a real job and earn real money. I guess IT is merely a hobby for you.

        However, for those that use computers for real tasks and have to make money with them (so-called 'professionals') it should be pretty obvious that a computer is only a means to do the job and not a purpose in itself. And when a computer is a tool and not a hobby then it's normally pretty obvious that the choice of OS is dictated by the availability of applications to do the job and not blind fanboi-ism. Sometimes it may be Linux, sometimes it may be OS X, but in many occassions it's simply Windows. Period.

        "...and used Thinkpads."

        Right, because Thinkpads are nearly perfect (and all the flaws that IBM and later Lenovo has designed into the T20, T21, A20, A31, T40, T41, T61 and many other Thinkpads apparently never existed in your world).

    3. Anonymous Coward
      FAIL

      Re: Consumers don't want it.

      hyperbole alert!!!

      you know reading this forum is starting to bore me silly. I think it's about time to play Mass Effect 3 on my X-Box 360....

  23. vmcreator
    Linux

    Rushed Implementations!

    Microsoft got left behind, panicked and delivered a whole load of rubbish. Their salesman are spouting bullshit and huge exageration. And this is the company that also wants us to put faith in Hyper-V 2012!

    I don't think so MS$. Openstack, VMware, Hadoop, Apple, agility and mobility are the big things again for 2013.

  24. Rob Moir
    Facepalm

    Microsoft need to look inside themselves for this one

    The OEMs are far from blameless in the way some of them build crap hardware that does no favours to the people trying to use it, but Windows 8 has plenty of problems of its own. It doesn't need help from the OEMs to suck - it already sucks enough to pull a bowling ball through a small straw by itself.

    There's some very good "under-the-bonnet" work that's gone into windows 8 but it's all overshadowed by some frankly bizarre interface decisions. Even if you like metro (I'm sure someone must, somewhere) then you must still be frustrated by the inconsistent mess that's resulted by crashing that interface into the windows 7 one.

    There's nothing wrong with change, even radical change, but the change needs to be a marked improvement on what it is replacing... and that's simply not the case here. I'll respect even a failed attempt at change for the better because at least it's an attempt and improving something, but Windows 8 feels a lot like change for the sake of change.

  25. Codysydney

    60,000,000 minus 2

    What about those people like me, who bought 2 copies of Windows 8, and even LIKE the new start screen, but both machines are now reverted to Windows 7 after a raft of Windows 8 issues (EG it won't even see my desktop's DVD drive even though it installed from it, and, it bluescreens my Vaio). I'll reinstall when there's both a compelling reason and they have a service pack out.

    IE, probably never.

    1. Jonathan 29

      Re: 60,000,000 minus 2

      Agreed, bought it whilst it was cheap, but highly unlikely to use it until it is less buggy.

    2. Paul Shirley

      Re: Win8 bugs

      Took me 2 months to get Win8 partially stable here. A depressing combination of forcing compatibility mode on far too many apps and services, soul destroying searching for 64bit drivers that don't crash on 4Gb+ machines (and reminding WIndows update NOT to send me more broken ones) and retiring perfectly functional hardware Win8 just won't work with.

      Now I'm reaching the giddy heights of 48hr uptime between forced reboots, MS deprecated (and vandalised) desktop mode to the point where when Explorer crashes it now disables every UI element on the entire system. Can't even fire up or use the task manager, can't switch out of desktop, can't restart. Can't even ctrl-alt-del! Only working input is the reset button on the PC.

      And I can't tell if it's the bugs desktop has always had or the 3rd party hacks needed to make it usable, whichever it is, making desktop just an app means when it crashes there's no way out.

  26. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Attention Microsoft: Field Of Dreams was a movie

    in the real world, if you build it, they still might not come

  27. Steve Liput

    MS have a point

    I want to buy a new touch screen laptop, probably an ultrabook. The choice out there is abysmal though - there's only 1 or 2 options per store that are even touch screens. Laptop manufacturers need to add touch to many more Win 8 laptops and soon or they'll miss the boat

    1. Chad H.

      OR....

      Ms moved to a touch-assumed interface before the world was ready. Rather than going to a halfway solution where you could switch between interfaces that excel in either the mouse or touch environment, they deliberately crippled the mouse option simply to try and get more App Store sales.

    2. Pookietoo

      Re: Laptop manufacturers need to add touch

      For most users touch only works well on tablets and kiosks.

  28. Paradroid

    Pot, kettle

    How can MS say it's the fault of the OEM's for not producing hardware at launch when they're only shipping their own Surface Pro in February?

    They desperately need to release a desktop-specific version of Windows 8 with a stunning UI, a sort-of evolution of Windows 7, instead of ripping out all the eye candy so it blends with boring Metro as they've done with Windows 8. This would cheer up desktop die-hards and businesses, who must be feeling left out in the cold as Microsoft goes off chasing the tablet market. And failing.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Pot, kettle

      "How can MS say it's the fault of the OEM's for not producing hardware at launch when they're only shipping their own Surface Pro in February?"

      Cause Ballmer is a w*nker with no idea. He'll bring them down. Get rid now.

      I stil like windows. I get what they have done with the start screen, some how, 1,000,000's have missed it.

      Too stuck in their ways to change.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Pot, kettle

        "some how, 1,000,000's have missed it."

        or alternatively ......

    2. Obvious Robert
      Linux

      Re: Pot, kettle

      "instead of ripping out all the eye candy so it blends with boring Metro"

      This is one of my major gripes with Windows 8 that's rarely mentioned round here. Yes the start screen and hot corners and all the rest of it are rubbish, but why on earth did they have to remove all that lovely eye candy from Win7? And not just the transparency but anything resembling a contour or depth at all? Every time I have to support a Win8 PC I do a double take because it looks like it's in safe mode or something, then I remember that no, it's just crap.

      Mind you there are positives to come out of this. About 9 months ago, after years of procrastination I'd finally got around to playing with Linux in the form of Ubuntu. I tried to like Unity, I really did but ultimately I just couldn't get on with it and I retreated back to Win7. Seeing the monumental shite pile that is Windows 8 made me realise that thinking long term, I really had to find a viable alternative. This spurred me on and over the last few weeks I've been busy making friends with KDE and Kubuntu - Start buttons! Functionality! Eye candy! Customisability! I'm still very much a Linux newbie compared to my years of tech support level knowledge of Windows, but now I've made the leap I feel there's probably no going back.

      Small but somewhat important note to Microsoft - if your new OS is so ugly and badly designed that it's encouraging long term customers to learn an entirely new alternative from scratch, you now need to accept that you've made a desperately massive mistake.

      1. ecofeco Silver badge

        Re: Pot, kettle

        When you log into Ubuntu, you can choose the standard interface instead of Unity. I don't like Unity either.

  29. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Using it and yet still don't like Win 8 on the desktop

    I first installed it on a 6 year old Acer 3690 (MSDN) . It worked, no issues with drivers. Smooth enough, but the hassles between (Not)Metro and Desktop were too annoying.

    Rollf forward a few months, I get myself a cheap netbook from Comet's dying days. It's meant to have Win 7, actually Win 8.

    I kept it rather than reclaiming the full HDD by installing Mint on it because the work is going to go to Win 8 soon apparently. The big bosses like it.

    They all use it on tablets.

    I can see this working nicely on a phone. Even though I am a commited Droid user, I could see this being an OK interface to use as a phone, but even though it imported account details from my Acer 3690 experiment with Win 8 (kind of creepy at first) .

    My wife, not a technophone, but less likely to get into things that make me think "cool" about an OS has also been using Win 8. She really loved it at first but as she goes on she finds it gets in the road. Finiding out how to CLOSE Metro apps is not intuitive. The switchout from Metro to Desktop gets on her nerves as does the interface being designed for a tablet as far as multiple windows/apps goes. No quick drag and drop between folders here, not in Metroland.

    Ideas from Metro might have been nice as a new approach to a desktop gadget bar, but for the desktop in its entirity, no

  30. RyokuMas Silver badge
    Stop

    Poor marketing, bad timing

    Right, let's not get too hung up on the merits and flaws of any particular operating system - Win8 or otherwise. Personally, I reserve my judgement as I've yet to get hands-on with a Win8 box for any length of time - although I have no problem with taking a pop at a ranting zealot who does not back up their argument with credible facts and figures.

    But in this case, Microsoft are not helping their cause in the slightest. As vmcreator states, the a lot of the Win8 project felt rushed and panicked, resulting not only in a badly timed and poorly marketed launch, but also in alienating people - which only gives the zealots ammunition. This mudslinging is only going to make matters worse.

    Like I said - I reserve my judgement over the software. But the marketing at the moment sounds a lot like a child yelling "me! me! me!" and then throwing a tantrum when things don't go its way.

    Microsoft are not yet a dying breed. But the are losing a lot of ground, and need to think both quickly and carefully if they want to stand any chance of turning things around. Throwing accusations will not help.

  31. Longrod_von_Hugendong
    Facepalm

    M$ has done exactly...

    what i said they shouldn't - release expensive, high end products - The nix tablets tried it and it failed badly at the start (then figured out if you copy apple you stand far more chance), palm tried it and it failed, how much more evidence do you need not to repeat the same mistakes?

    Not matter how good you think you are the public doesnt believe you - they buy apple if they can afford it.

    Should have released at £150 for that much i would have bought one, for the same price an an iPad i would upgrade my iPad to the latest version.

    (I will just wait for the flames now from the driod folk. :D - but its true never the less)

  32. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Ballmer can't bully the makers!

  33. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    cobblers

    so the MS demand manufacturers build expensive toys and when they bulk at this, far from being convinced they'll sell like hot cakes (financial crisis, folks buy fewer toys, etc), and don't want to imitate RIM or HP "firesale" - and then the good MS people blame those manufacturers for low interest from punters? Why, should it not be that with lack of this competition, MS own toy, aka surface RT should fly off the shelves? Non? Not flying? Flapping then? Keeling over? Pining for the Norwegian fjords? Sniffing warehouse atmosphere? Bad, bad manufacturers!

  34. Mystic Megabyte Silver badge
    Linux

    Sneak preview of Win 9

    http://neave.com/simon/

    On a serious note, there are always too many versions of Windows, Home, Pro etc and now RT.

    MS has always been a bare bones OS, to do anything useful you have to buy a lot more software. Explorer was/is a crap file manager and I believe that even the Media Player is now an extra.

    Ultimately I just do not trust MS, they have done to many dirty deeds. Vista assumed that everyone was a criminal and ran like a dog while it checked for possible copyright infringement.

    It is like BT and Phorm. Once a company crosses that bridge there is no going back, they will never convince me to support them again.

    1. Davidoff
      Holmes

      I believe that even the Media Player is now an extra.

      "...I believe that even the Media Player is now an extra."

      Only if you buy the EU-mandated 'N' variant. The normal Windows versions all come with Windows Media Player of course, and Windows 8 adds a (quite nice) Metro audio and video player to that.

      "Ultimately I just do not trust MS, they have done to many dirty deeds. Vista assumed that everyone was a criminal and ran like a dog while it checked for possible copyright infringement."

      I would have thought that by now everyone even in the sticks knows that the Vista DRM nonsense (which came from wannabe-scientist Peter Gutman from NZ) was just that - a huge pile of nonsense. As apparently you never used Vista (otherwise you should have known better) I suggest you have a read here:

      http://www.dasmirnov.net/blog/windows_vista_drm_nonsense

      "It is like BT and Phorm. Once a company crosses that bridge there is no going back, they will never convince me to support them again."

      Well, in this case you should never ever use a product from Apple, any Android phone, a PS3, and many other stuff made by or supplied by companies that have an eye on their customers. In fact, these days MS is by far one of the lesser evils.

      But I guess old habits (and prejudice) die hard.

  35. __________
    Coat

    Can I just say "I miss File Manager"

    I do.

    So there

    1. Chad H.
      Trollface

      Re: Can I just say "I miss File Manager"

      File Manager?

      Ha Ha Ha.

      MS-DOS Exec for me please.

      1. Corborg
        Thumb Up

        Re: Can I just say "I miss File Manager"

        Directory Opus for me please

  36. AJ01

    Ham Sandwich

    I was going to buy Windows 8 but then I had a Ham cheese and Pickle sandwich on warburtons thick cut sliced bread, not warburtons toastie cut bread, i prefer the additional bread supplied by the thicker cut. you know the one in the green packet not the blue or the orange ones, and nver that hovis crap you can only get in petrol station shops. i also added a bit of butter to the sandwich, i am not sure if you can taste it through the ham cheese and pickle but still its kind of tradition.

  37. Andy Watt
    FAIL

    Petard - hoisted on, see "own"

    End of story.

  38. CmdrX3
    Meh

    Windows 8 isn't that bad, just TIFKAM sucks a sweaty pair

    As soon as I got shot of TIFKAM and started using Start8 it certainly improved. I even like quite a few of the TIFKAM apps, it's a shame they use it to run. If they could just get those apps working within the normal desktop and give it a close button instead of having to drag the app down then escape from TIFKAM as quickly as possible. Even the ribbon toolbar is not that bad once you get the hang of where things are, and I originally hated the ribbon. They took a perfectly good start menu system and completely banjaxed it for the sake of touchscreen that few people want or use on a PC when they should have concentrated on integrating the Skydrive cloud more seamlessly. They made a lot of improvements in Windows 8, unfortunately they are completely overshadowed by the the turd that is TIFKAM. So if they want to do a Windows 8 launch reboot..... reboot the OS without that f*****g monstrosity.

  39. Monopolies-Suck
    FAIL

    Paying the Piper

    MSFT simply did not listen to the market - they want their own way and are now paying the price of that lack of listening. To blame the PC vendors may be in part accurate - they too do not want to have to put lipstick on a pig.

    During the development of Win8, MSFT folks were fobiden to talk about or divulge virtually anythig. By not talking (although Sinofsky did to a lot of talking on the blog and not a lot of listening) and more importantly not really listening, they ended up making some major mistakes, IMHO.

    At one point it was absurd: one MSFT FTE. speaking at a major industry conference, could not even admit that there WAS a Win8 being worlked on. They (Sinofsky) killed off the beta programme which had served MSFT well in terms of early feedback that could be acted on. So by the time BUILD had happened, MSFT was so committed to the new UI, there was no turning back.

    As a result, issues like the UI being poor for desktop/laptop users, there being no way to run multiple 'metro' apps next to each other (heck, even Windows 2 allowed you to run multiple apps side by side), etc, etc. While all this may make sense for a tablet/slate, but utterly suck on corporate laptop/desktop systems.And don't get me started on the lame application store. East German food shops were better stocked!

    But at the end of the day, the failure of Win8 is down to MSFT. They designed this turkey, they failed to listen to legitimate complaints, and they launched hardware that directly competes with their former 'partners'.What did they really expect?

    To sum it all up: #FAIL

  40. BitDr

    Success...

    It was Mr. Gates who said something along the lines of "Success is a lousy teacher, it convinces otherwise smart people that they can't lose". The executives at MS would do well to heed those words.

  41. coastwalker

    fiddling whilst rome burns

    I am utterly astonished that there is no hint that the high profile extreme risk of changing the operating system from a WIMP interface to a slidey touch phone one - no matter what the hardware, figures nowhere in the analysis of why sales are not at the level expected. Are these people complete and utter morons.

    If you have any sense I would sell everything to do with Microsoft - including shares in their partners because of this bizarre blindness. They must be grinding up those touch tablets and smoking them. A slow launch I could understand but bleating this juvenile nonsense without reference to the elephant in the room shows them to be so utterly complacent they must have a death wish.

  42. Anonymous Coward
    IT Angle

    MSFT Reality Distortion Field

    MSFT have over $60 billion cash on hand, yet Win8 is the best they can do???

    The 'tell' in this story is that they are no longer able to control market direction by diktat.

    Really, when has a company done so little with so much. MFST Q2'13 earnings are out today after the close. That should be an interesting read.

  43. Drefsab
    Thumb Down

    lol

    So after users all around the world saying windows 8 is rubbish Microsoft ignored them and decided to go ahead anyway, so people have used it and gone this is rubbish and guess what the users don't want it.

    Several people I know have bought new laptops etc that had windows 8 on it, each and every single one has come to me asking if I can wipe it and put windows 7 on it.

    I've used it myself to learn, while there are some elements I love about it (boot speed, the file copying dailogs etc) they may simple every day tasks so much harder than they used to be. For example looking at images in a folder double click a picture then use left and right to scroll through the images? oh no no no not on windows 8 we will make you open and close the metro app for each picture. Sure thats a simple thing to fix to but there to many things like that and it make users not want it.

    If users dont want it they wont rush out and buy new hardware with it.

  44. Piro

    Surface RT

    Was a pointless product, confusing the ever-living shit out of most Joe Public consumers, who if they understood the limitations, wouldn't want it anyway, and would probably be happier with a normal cheapo laptop, an iPad, or possibly "one of those google/nexus thingies".

    Windows 8 on its own, is a conflicted product - painfully pulling desktop users into a touch environment for no reason, but still having a small application base, so in reality, touch machines will need to enter the desktop to Get Shit Done.

  45. W.O.Frobozz

    Seriously, STFU Baldy

    Windows 8 is actually WORSE than Windows Vista. It is YOUR fault you wanted to shove a terrible tablet interface in everyone's faces.

    And even without that Windows 8 would have STILL been lukewarm because Windows 7 finally got it right.

    You expect people to upgrade to Windows 8 for "games?" What games? Microsoft stuck a dagger in the back of PC gaming when they invented the X-Box, causing games to either not be made for the PC or worse, end up with a crappy console port...wake up and smell the corpse, Ballmer. PC Gaming is dead and YOU were the one that killed it. The goldmine era of people frantically updating to the latest Windows to play the latest games is gone forever. Given what Valve is doing with Steam, they're going Linux.

    And as for business users using Windows 8? Let me be the first to say HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Right. Because professionals really WANT that crappy, clunky tablet interface making their day's work more difficult and painful. I know MY business has no plans to foist this lemming on it's employees.

    Steve "Barkto" Ballmer NEEDS. TO. BE. FIRED.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Childcatcher

      Re: Seriously, STFU Baldy

      You've seemingly turned up the hyperbole to eleven. I am unsure that congratulations are in order.

      No, Windows 8 is not worse than Vista.

      No, PC gaming is not dead.

      My suggestion is an Aristotelian moderation in all things.

  46. James Gosling
    Happy

    Well, let's face it...

    The current self inflicted humiliation Microsoft is going through is long overdue and each installment puts a bigger smile on my face! Microsoft have produced many products, some good, some bad, most not so great. But their overall contribution to the industry has been a negative one. Year on year they become more and more irrelevant, and unless this leopard changes its spots, that all for the good of IT.

  47. djstardust Silver badge

    Poor hardware is the issue

    Looking at laptops and PCs lately has scared me. They're either cheap and nasty looking or decent and expensive.

    Saying that, I have just installed a 256gb SSD in my 2009 Quadcore MacPro and put windows 7 on it. Bloody fantastic!

    I really dislike MacOS and Windows 8. Having tried both my ultimate solution is Mac hardware with an older MS OS.

    The future is bleak ......

  48. James Pickett

    Oxymoron?

    "attractive Win 8-powered"

    Not something you read every day.

  49. Levente Szileszky
    FAIL

    Again and again, it's the UBER-INCOMPETENT, clueless yet arrogant Ballmerian mafia...

    ...as they are DESPERATELY trying to avoid to have to face the music finally - GAME OVER, you big, fat, bald chair-throwing beancounting clown.

    "“Microsoft is not blaming itself for not selling enough Surface, it’s blaming OEMs for not having enough touch-based product,” our supply chain source said."

    AS ALWAYS. Cockroaches try to survive, to stay inside the BUBBLE where reality barely creeps in before devastating numbers like this hit them hard...

    "In a statement attributed to Windows business planning general manager Bernardo Caldas, Microsoft said it works closely with hardware partners on a list of selected devices which it believes “people will love and that showcase the best of the Windows 8 user experience. This is not a new process for Windows”.

    Awww, even for a usual BS by an MSFT bobbleheads like Caldas it's way too lame... not new? You couldn't f'n manage a SINGLE new platform rollout without completely screwing it up (no, W7 wasn't new, it was a fixed-up Vista.)

    "On those Q4 sales, Microsoft claimed 60 million Windows 8 licences had been sold to date - pointing to comments made by Windows division chief financial officer and chief marketing officer Tami Reller at a JP Morgan conference.

    Microsoft did say that the figure of 60 million could be attributed to upgrades and sales to manufacturers – so not sales of actual PCs to the end user. Reller had claimed the 60 million was “roughly in line with where we would have been with Windows 7".

    One word: priceless (and no pun intended.) The fact that the head of finance is the same person as the head of marketing should tell you everything about her credibility - indeed, tossing out shipments to manufacturers as sales numbers is downright pathetic.

    Again, this is the super-incompetent, uber-bureaucratic 'management' Ballmer 'managed' to build over his 10+ years reign - and it's now taking its heavy toll on MSFT.

    Once again, I MUST link the mandatory read about Ballmer et al - it was an excellent piece in Vanity Fair's last August issue :

    How Microsoft Lost Its Mojo: Steve Ballmer and Corporate America's Most Spectacular Decline

    http://www.vanityfair.com/business/2012/08/microsoft-lost-mojo-steve-ballmer#1

    Once you've read this article you'll understand why it is IMPOSSIBLE to fix MSFT while Balllmer and his ilks are still running it - BALLMER ET AL MUST GO, ASAP.

  50. Steve Mann

    Hurrah!

    Finally, Microsoft gets on board the Linux community message:

    "Ours is better; people don't use it because they are dumber than a bag of hammers so it's all their fault.

    Also: 8op"

  51. sambob223
    WTF?

    Apples an Windows

    I've noticed It never takes to long before It comes up someone suggests you use An Apple,or run Linux Instead of the latest version of Windows.....well how about sticking with the OS that you're using now if It's doing what you need It to do and just wait and see If windows 8 Is going to turn Into something you can use.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: how about sticking with the OS that you're using now

      Because it's a security headache?

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Apples an Windows

      Because the hardware they were running it on stopped working, and the new replacement hardware won't run it properly?

  52. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    They're both right (and both wrong)

    Microsoft is right - most PCs are deeply uninspiring, plasticy, poorly built, poorly executed creaky horrors. There's no joy in buying a new PC any more. To most people, all PCs are pretty much identical and have been powerful enough for the past 5 years.

    PC Manufacturers are also right - Windows is a deeply uninspiring, bug-ridden, poorly built, poorly executed creaky horror. There's no joy in buying a new version of Windows. To most people, all OSs are pretty much identical and have been functional enough for the past 5 years.

    Then there's HP. Everything they do, be it hardware or software, is absolute sh*t. They are always wrong, regardless of how much effort and cash they expend to be anything else.

    1. Nigel 11

      HP

      Everything they do, be it hardware or software, is absolute sh*t.

      Except printers. Which is probably the last hold-out of the old pre-Compaq HP, but for how much longer?

  53. Paulusar
    WTF?

    Some idiot at M$

    M$ decided they wanted in on the iPad market. So some idiot decided to design the next version of Windows to suit tablets and phones. Then the idiot said "How do we get people to buy the Windows 8 touch screen devices?"

    Eureka! Foist Windows 8 onto desktops and laptops. The suckers will love it so much that when they buy a tablet or phone they will want Windows 8 on it and not buy iPads.

    Well the suckers weren't that stupid, otherwise they would be already buying Apple products.

    Now Windows 8 is sinking faster than the Titanic and taking PC makers with it.

    The idiot in M$ needs to fired. M$ has only itself to blame.

  54. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    What a bunch of misinfo

    Windows 8 doesn't work with MY applications and MY third party hardware (mixing board, effects racks)

    Windows 7 doesn't work with MY third party hardware

    decided to build up a couple netbooks with win 7 on it after trying win 8 and "defang-ing" the BS GUI out of it and still just hating the fuck out of it.

    The only thing these new OS's did is make clear I would be fucked with my expensive audio hardwares... which COST a fuck of a lot more than any Microsoft OS.

    Linux is a different topic, I have linux boxes, but they are irrelevant to this discussion, they do the JOBS they were intended.

    So that leaves XP on the workstations.

    And here's the "propaganda" arguments against this practice of keeping XP.

    1. "Either way you cut it, XP has less than 500 days left on the support clock, which means organizations and users need to start taking the conversation seriously if they want to stay ahead of potential problems."

    Even with all this noise traveling around the materium, there have BEEN ZERO potential problems here. So what problems was I supposed to have? I don't see them.

    2. Security & Windows 8

    XP is behind a linux firewall, No problems, I use Nightly, Palemoon, Opera, Chrome, I never needed IE until microsoft killed their FTP off and went with this WGA / Updates crap. If there's no updates, then I can FINALLY set IE to a localhost proxy and slide all the fckin sliders to HIGH, set BITS and Windows Update service to DISABLED, what's not to like?! More speed, and less services.

    Want to talk about processes? In win7/8 how about all those shit processes running off the screen on your process hacker. Want to kill Firefox, scroll to the bottom... On XP I have 15 processes, they fit one screen. I instantly KNOW what the fuck is running. IF a worm gets run accidentally D7 (and others) will take care of it. OR I roll back the CLONE.

    3. time & cost savings

    Long term support - After April 2014,

    bagh already covered that, it's behind a firewall, fck support.

    Stability - The pro-XP zealots claim that XP is still the most stable OS from Microsoft to date, but the numbers surely don’t support this.

    Cooked numbers. Killing unwanted processes and services, is actually something I script. They whine about blue screens and hung apps, but if your box is kept cloned, tuned, clean and debugged, this propaganda is a giant pile of BS. XP gets my work done on time- every time. Those blue screens come from virus's and burned out hardware. OR the occasional deleted file (which I can re-copy from the CLONE)

    Money - saved didn't buy jack dookie. Saved ALL my money.

    Time - Saved. (my time was spent the last ten years debugging a perfect workstation which has ability to get anything I can possibly want done, the same way, every time)

    4. Application compatibility will continue to get worse

    Nonsense, it's actually the other way around, win7/8 app compatibility is the one with the problems. But then I am not buying the latest v +.1 incremental version shit all the time either, since nothing is specifically mentioned, it shows this is the propaganda BS it is...

    5. emulation

    And those companies cringing at the thought of moving off of XP because of old software not functioning under 7 or 8 shouldn’t worry too much. Windows 7 has a wonderful native feature called Windows XP Mode which emulates a full instance of XP Pro under a virtual machine, and seamlessly integrates usage into the primary OS. Windows 8 dropped Windows XP Mode, but has similar functions with the newly included Hyper-V capabilities which replicate 7′s XP Mode in nearly all aspects.

    Bagh, virtual doesn't work with real third party hardware which REQUIRES XP.

    And speaking on PC's - I've not ran into any machine that can't run XP, so saying that hardware like the motherboard won't run XP is bs, otherwise LINUX wouldn't run on it either. Maybe that old compaq portable 386 won't run it, I digress.

    6. Customers (especially business clients) who choose to stick with XP past April 2014 will be leaving themselves open to legal risks, application support sun-setting, and wasted funds on continued maintenance for aging XP machines.

    Legal RISKS? wtf is this fear cruft? They don't even NAME anything specific. app support - already said who CARES, I don't use your apps!!? wasted funds on maintenance for aging XP machines? what maintenance?! Fans? Video Card? vs a whole new $2000 computer!? get real.. If we can get more mom and pops to deal with used equipment instead of being brainwashed by the greentards UN agenda 21 crap, to just take it to the electronics cleanup (donation) where they make money grinding everything down to it's elements for recycle. Would you rather pay $600 for a new acer netbook or $99 and then upgrade your netbook with parts to make it better than the $600 one! PC's I have a house full, they will last me the rest of MY life. In short I already paid and prepared.

    Conclusion

    XP is the BEST OS microsoft ever put out.

    The EOL sunsetting date is something Microsoft wrote on a piece of paper, they can destroy that paper and keep selling security patches if they had a fucking open mind. Screw it, let them go the way of APPLE's arrogance and insolence, just don't let nobody say, "Oh I never saw that coming" when there's a 404 eRROR on microsoft.com. We saw it coming, it's just nobody listened.

    But there's other things at play here. Politics, Copyright, and the Electronic Civil war (Spying) going on where everything electronic is now being exploited against government's own citizens. How the fuck is win 8 security going to be any better than XP if all your data is being snooped off a fucking FIOS splitter and stored in UTAH? (NSA)

    The tablets and netbooks are frankly so small my eyes hurt. I sure ain't using that shit for audio and video production. email, usenet, ftp, ssh, text sure no problem. If that's all you got to do, which is more like a consumer than producer, then win8 is fine for you.

    Anyway, this is my little "Blast Back" to Microsoft.

    1. All names Taken
      Paris Hilton

      Re: What a bunch of misinfo

      Apple tried and is trying the same thing... OS or and/or iOS

    2. bag o' spanners
      Meh

      Re: What a bunch of misinfo

      I've managed to get a TC Konnekt 48 running smoothly on Win7 64, but my Focusrite digiboxes require XP 32 for stability and glitch free audio. I still have a Maxi Isis doodling away on a 98SE box, and a Wami Rack as an analogue sub-mixer and wordclock master on a skeleton XP machine. The only rig which cost more than the soundcard on it is the Win7 machine. The odds on these soundcards being supported by Win8 are slim to non-existent.

      Like you, I have a serious investment in outboard tech, and only require driver stability. All the garbage and bloat that comes with the OS gets nixed at install, or gets scraped out during the optimisation process. My firewalls consists of a big air gap. If I'm bouncing stuff around, an Adat or gigabit cable will do. Full sessions can travel on Bluray, or on a hotswap from cradle to cradle. 98SE hasn't been supported since the stone age, but my 1999 install still runs tickety boo. One PSU upgrade, a bigger data hd, and a newer graphics card in 13 years is an acceptable running cost. I couldn't tell you when I last had a bluescreen outside an incompatible ASIO driver episode when setting up a new audio gizmo..

      More to the point, is the fact that stable software that does a job effectively doesn't need to be replaced or upgraded every twenty minutes. Having install disks for worst possible case scenarios seems to reduce risky behaviour in the first place. Keeping data off system disks and having RAID on the main storage reduces system klutz and panic attacks to a minimum. That only leaves epic brainfarts to contend with.

      When my friends tell me that their Win7/Ableton or Mac/Logic laptop rig is disintegrating for the nth time, I try to explain the principles of system maintenance to them, but it's too much like hard work. Their TCO is ridiculous, but for some reason they prefer to work in a looped universe of upgrade/driver incompatibility/upgrade/crash/facebook wailing..

      [/olde farte whinge]

  55. Anonymous Coward
    Windows

    Dearest Maximum Leader

    Dearest Maximum Leader, I hope you don't mind I call you Steve.

    Dearest Steve....

    I am one of your minion who was running Windows 7 and have upgraded to Windows 8. Despite what many think, I find that Windows 8 is in fact fine. I hated it at first when I tried the Preview version as I found myself digging around in the corners waiting for this or that charm to pop up. Luckily either I got used to it, or one of your serfs fixed the issue. So overall I find Windows 8 enjoyable. Its' slightly schizophrenic UI took a little getting used to, but like an ex-girlfriend (or several) once I bedded said "Windows 8", I found I could overlook, at least for now, said idiosyncrasies.

    So while I find it painful to see Windows 8 unnecessarily slandered, it pains me more to think that you are allowing your august presence and the Microsoft company, which we will refer in the future as Elysium, to be sullied by what appears to be self-deception.

    So while it seems to this lowly minion, that your messaging in the Channel and to your end user was often opaque and failed to communicate the positive features of the new OS in favor of a series of superficial images who's meaning eludes me. That furthermore you likely ignored feedback from customers when you yanked items like the "start button" from the desktop version or your Windows 8, and removed the ability of your customers to boot into either UI version per their wishes. It also occurs to me that the Elysium Fields has been polluted by an internal culture that fails to see internal departments of said company as internal customers who's input and cooperation is required. Such being the case that heaven is turned into hell, it appears that your minions have been turned out to taunt and torment your poor customers with opaque messages on your customer service boards.

    I fear that the sound of my gnashing teeth can be heard even there in Mount Olympus, err Seattle. I do apologize for my intrusion and do humbly suggest that you get your shit together post haste....

    bh

  56. janimal
    Go

    Sirius Cybernetics Corporation

    First against the wall when the revolution comes....

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Holmes

      Re: Sirius Cybernetics Corporation

      Dear Sir,

      If your comment is directed at me, I would like to suggest that your humor recognition chip is defective. A replacement or a microcode update may be required. Given said defect, I would expect your response will be problematic. Given said likelihood, my second suggestion is one that would be inappropriate to write in a public forum.

  57. TheWeddingPhotographer

    MS are simply confusing what they think we want, with what we actually need

    Businesses need a simple stable OS, and a secure platform for workers to work productively (not play) with

    Family's are looking for a simple to use computer that has no surprises

    Only rich idiots can afford to upgrade every time a new phone / computer / tablet / OS comes out

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      "Family's"? I think you're looking for an OS with a spell checker.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        re: spell checker

        Grammar checker

    2. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge
      Pint

      MS are simply confusing...

      > what they think we want,

      Excuse me; should clearly be corrected to

      > what they think they want

      because it's all about pointing the wooden plane in the direction of a quite likely mythical "future market" that has something to do with mobility, relentlessmediaconsumption and touchscreens with a cloud mixed in, then doing the cargo cult dance and hope the bird flies. This market they hope to "monetize" with extreme prejudice by keeping competitors out, OEMs down and punters' wallets open, forever. And this, lazily - with one single product that shall be the same for everyone. Yah, fuck off, Microsoft. These ain't the 90's anymore.

      1. Ramazan

        Re: with one single product that shall be the same for everyone

        You know, Gates tried to do this (unified Windows) with original Xbox and Xbox 360, but it wasn't technically/financially possible then... Probably he thinks the time has come now

  58. All names Taken
    Paris Hilton

    Ad campaign fail

    U 2 kan bee a W8 klone too?

  59. Captain DaFt

    Note to Ballmer

    If you *really and truly* believe all that praise you've been heaping on Win 8 and all it's alliterations... Please check your shoes.

    If that smell's not from something you've stepped in, then you actually don't know shit from Shinola!

  60. Chad H.

    As I look a the article on this pass through, there's an add from Cruical encouraging me to buy more ram for my Windows 7 system.

    They know what their customers want....

  61. Tom 11
    Mushroom

    Dear Microsoft and estemed vendors...

    Stop flinging shit at each other and digest the following:

    TOUCH SCREEN IS NOT WHAT PEOPLE WITH HALF A FUCKING BRAIN WANT IN A COMPUTING DEVICE WITH ANY OTHER USE THAN GOOGLING, FACEBOOK AND CHECKING TV LISTINGS, ESPECIALLY FOR ANYTHING CLOSE TO ENTERPRISE. STOP SHOVING IT DOWN OUR THROATS!!!

    I am so sorry to the rest of you guys, I never CAPS rant, that was my first and it was embarrassing, but I had to get that out, it was beginning to consume me.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Coat

      Re: Dear Microsoft and estemed vendors...

      err.... from the data that I am seeing and from comments of OEM's indicate that touchscreen laptops are in fact selling well. Given in Windows 8 it takes about 3/10 of a second to switch to the desktop (which is in fact where I spend the majority of my time), I would like to suggest that if you don't want a touchscreen or to use Metro/Modern UI... DON'T BUY ONE.

      Given that touchscreens laptops are selling well, according to your scenario there's quite a few half-brained people. While I myself do not have a touchscreen for either my desktop or my laptop; I have strangely avoided "getting my panties in a bunch" as you seem to have done.

      Thereby my suggestion is; do not be so "touched", or conversely "get a grip."

    2. Zot

      Re: Dear Microsoft and estemed vendors...

      I wonder how many people only use a computer for Googling, Facefool and TV listings, internet purchases from Amazon/Tesco etc?

      Perhaps Microsoft has reacted to some market research - right or wrongly.

      For me a computer is a tool, I want to use all features of that tool to the max, but I'm a programmer/designer.

      Most people are not, especially the 'most people' in that possible lucrative market share.

  62. Bryan Hall
    FAIL

    720p? What's that?

    Amazing - Windows 8 isn't that bad. Certainly better than Vista, and a step up kernel wise from 7. And the $40 upgrade was a deal that made it make sense.

    BUT... Redmond seems to have forgotten about all those HTPC's that they pushed just years before - coupled to expensive 720p projectors when they set up the 8 standards. Some idiot in charge decided that 1024 x 768 was the minimum size screen for any device - so that tile apps (that most of us don't care about) - would have space to run on those tablets. Well - except second screens that are actually movie projectors and um... won't scale properly to 1080p due to cable lengths for the ceiling mounts with thick DVI cables (not HTMI).

    Hard coded minimum of no less than 768 - FAIL!

    SP1?

    FAIL!

  63. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Perhaps it's true here.

    I walk into the local electronic chains and all the Windows 8 machines do not have touchscreens. That's not to say that if they did have touch screens they'd be usable.

  64. JimTopbloke
    Pint

    I love windows 8

    I was reluctant to buy a Win8 machine because of all the bad reviews but I'm bloody glad I did!

    All you need to know are the shortcut keys WIN+D, ALT+TAB, WIN+TAB and ALT+F4 and you have yourself a great OS..

    If you have never used for more than half an hour then stop moaning about what you know sod all about, once you do you will realise that it works well..

    I have installed Ubuntu (sans Unity) and Windows XP on the same machine and I find myself gravitating more to Windows 8 than my previous Linux preference or the comfort of XP.

    The task manager is vastly improved too so had done away with my needs for Process Explorer plus a few other tools I deemed essential in previous versions of windows..

    Just be happy you have a choice people!

  65. Whiznot

    Why would I ever want to touch a monitor. There aren't any titties on it.

  66. Tyrion
    WTF?

    Wow! the shills and Micro$oft apologists are out in force today lol. No doubt the reg saw a sudden influx of accounts, and a set of corresponding downvotes for this comment thread.

    As far as Windows is concerned, it's dead. The desktop OS monopolist gravy train has reached the end of its tracks, and there's no way to reverse course. And you know what, it couldn't come sooner for me. I hope the OEM's dump Microsoft en masse and switch to GNU/Linux.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      FAIL

      fanboi

      You know you are half right. I did register for the first time today to write on this thread. Yes, I do use Windows, have a X-Box 360 and even have a Windows 7.5 Phone.

      Apologist no. While I use MS products, I am not impressed by what indications I can see of their internal culture. I am also very mixed on their customer service. Some of their customer service is fine, some very opaque and unhelpful. Some of MS's decisions are poor. I critique MS where I think they need critique.

      However statements like Windows being dead is just plain stupid. If you want to be a Linux fanboi fine, do whatever you want. I don't consider myself a MS fanboi, it is simply what I use and is therefore what I am interested in talking about.

      1. kb
        Thumb Up

        Re: fanboi

        Anybody who says "The PC is dead" is a fool, plain and simple. and Linux (notice how he had to get the GNU in there, easiest way to spot a rabid fanboi) isn't ever gonna get anywhere near the desktop.

        No the simple fact is the MHz bubble has burst and PCs are going back to the 5-8 year cycle which they had before the MHz war, that is all. Windows 8 is just nasty on anything that isn't a touchscreen (which describes a good 98% of the PCs built and being built) but nobody is giving up their desktop or laptop for an iPhone, they are simply holding off purchasing a new one or coming to somebody like me that will be happy to sell them one with Windows 7.

        Finally as to their "internal culture"? You could see which way the wind was blowing when Allchin and Ozzie left, its all marketing drones like the Ballmernator which is why all you see are copies of products Apple put out a couple of years before. Don't worry as sooner or later the board will put down the crack pipe and fire him, when even Forbes lists him as worst CEO its gonna be hard for him to drum up support. I think Sinofsky falling on the sword bought him a little time but when win 8 is as big a flop as WinME it'll be bye bye ballmer. Hopefully they'll bring back one of the engineers like Allchin to right the ship and instead of copying Apple they'll take a page from IBM and supplement their software sales with services and all will straighten out.

        Until then simply avoid the mess that is Win 8, stick with Win 7 that has another 7 years minimum support (I say minimum because its obvious that 7 is the new XP so it wouldn't surprise me if it gets an extension like XP did) and unlike Win 8 is actually designed for the user and not Wall Street.

  67. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    "The software giant accused manufacturers of not building enough attractive Win 8-powered touchscreen tablets."

    Microsoft had to cut production of the Surface. So what is Microsoft's excuse?

  68. MrZoolook
    Thumb Down

    My heart bleeds...

  69. Ramazan

    Re: accused manufacturers of not building attractive Win8 tablets

    He should've accused them of building _ugly_ Win8 tablets IMNSHO.

  70. David Strum
    Linux

    Microsoft lost the touch – not having touch and is very touchy.

    We hear what you’re saying Reg. You don’t want to take sides in a tiff between Corporate Devas. It seems however, that reading between the lines, Microsoft is just plain angry at how its Win8 horse came in limping - in the race to catch peoples dwindling Christmas cash-blowout. But what’s an eye opener is its attitude, which in the days of Bill Gates, would have been unthinkable. It’s basically throwing its pictured-CEO weight around, like a spoilt brat, without the grace to ask OEMs nicely. Mind you, the PC makers aren’t exactly the public’s best friend; I mean fancy selling an OAP a Vista machine with only 1gig of Ram inside! They’re all out and out dodgy dealers: they’ve messed up, and they’ve only themselves to blame. But this shows how human Microsoft is – at the end of the financial year – very much like its pictured-heavy-weight CEO; a tubby tyrant whose lost touch.

  71. bag o' spanners

    Large vehicle=huge turning circle

    It'll be interesting to see which foot the shoe is on when Google finally launches an Android desktop operating system. Probably for a pittance. OEMs would love to be able to bargain down the installed OS licensing cost for new pcs of any flavour, so maybe Redmond is gradually becoming aware of the need to at least create a measurable presence on mobile devices. I like my dumb phone, but wouldn't mind a smart one if it was an intuitive extension of my desktop OS, or vice versa. Win8 hasn't convinced me that it's a capable multi purpose OS, and I'm not buying into the myopic richkids fruitzone for a taste of that particular pie, but if Androd ever reaches critical mush on the desktop, Miscrosoft had better have a backup plan ready to go.

    I'm randomly crystal ball gazing the potential for Google to throw a big glob of profit at building a pc driver database, mebbe snarfing an ailing pc manufacturer to incubate some fancy code, and tilting at the Microsoft share price for shits n giggles.

    I remember being told 17 years ago that I was mad to think that Macs would ever be built in China. All that proved to me was that nerds were blind to the harsh fiscal truths of global business. I'm sure our friends across the pond can remember the hawks poo-pooing the possibility that China could affect the price of gas at the US pump around the turn of the century. Five years is how long hubristic incompetence takes to trickle through a company (or a gubmint) from the board to the bottom line. Then it's too late to fix without a firesale.

    MS obviously wants to creep across the entire device spectrum with a single unified OS, and scrape every last cent out of their legacy customer base for the licenses, while fending off the perceived danger of a grown up Android lurching over the horizon with its stompy boots on.. They're only three years late to the party. If Google "accidentally" undercuts MS on the desktop OS front, maybe offering consolidated utilitarian hardware/software packages for work/leisure BYOD phone and slab docks through its established manufacturing partners, the game will be up for MS (and Apple).

    I'm aware that Android on a portable device isn't a mature OS right now, which is why I'm typing this on a Win7 pc. Give me something more functional than a Chrome zombie terminal, and even I might be tempted to throw my purchasing and shitstirring weight behind a Linux-killer GoogOS. I can't see Google building a comparable driver database to rival Windows overnight , especially when it comes to specialist outboard and expensive cards, but .....for the workplace terminal, with its basic drudge apps, email, and a sniff of SQL and XML network front end doc retrieval, most of that posh stuff is irrelevant. As long as the graphics, network, and input devices work, and the UI looks simple enough for the watercooler generation to get their melons around, it'll find a place in the vast n bulbous organisations who are permanently looking for opportunities to gut their IT budgets. Windows, Office, and Sharepoint, with their bloated license fees, might as well have bullseyes painted on their arses.

    Looking further into the crystal ball, with the help of this jug of Old Hillbilly Premium Firebreather, it's not inconceivable that those megalithic entities with coders coming out of every pore could be driving the OS wars of the future. Google, Amazon and Facebook seem to be doing quite nicely with their homegrown server farms and control software development.. How long before one or more of them decides to push scaled down m2m versions into the enterprise sector?

    As we used to say in hippyville..."you're either on the bus, or under it"

  72. nhirsch

    Windows 8 is like the dumb blonde

    pretty on the outside with all the colored windows/makeup

    difficult to make it her understand what you want to 'start' to do

    jealous of others--wanting the hardware drivers/men only for herself

    exaggerations of how many people purchased/dated her

    developer/parents blame others when she isn't desired/asked out

    inability to do anything in a business environment

    impresses only brainless things with her superficiality

    ...

  73. Dave 15 Silver badge

    Microsoft need to re-learn the basics

    You can no longer send complaints or suggestions to Microsoft without 'registering' and 'paying' for the chance.

    Windows 7 is a crock of shit, can't even run skype on it with any success (keeps hanging), can't search for files properly (the facility is as broken as it is possible to be), in fact basically nothing that I use day to day is as food as it was in windows 1.0

    Why would I then buy windows 8? The usability is going the WRONG WAY, the testing is shocking and they have their fingers in their collective ears while they sing la la la la

    I used to work for them, I am glad I don't now, it would be shameful.

    The engineers are able to do what is required, I would like to know why they aren't being allowed to, perhaps the managements heads have just got too big?

    Open your ears, open the route for customers to tell you what is wrong and what they want, offer what is needed - full and free support so that customers don't end up looking at your 'product' and deciding it is an unusable crock of shit, then perhaps you might just win them back round and they might buy an improved offering. Carry on the way you are and my machines will be moved back a couple of versions and will stay there - at least my old machine actually WORKS - even including skype!

    1. Piro

      Re: Microsoft need to re-learn the basics

      The fact you can't run Skype has nothing to do with Windows 7, I'd suggest you have bigger issues with the PC there. There are millions of people that run Skype on Windows 7 without incident.

      However, you did touch on a real issue - search. It's garbage. Go and download Agent Ransack instead.

      1. Dave 15 Silver badge

        Re: Microsoft need to re-learn the basics

        There maybe millions who run skype on win 7 with no problem, there are hundreds of thousands who have exactly the same machines configured in exactly the same way running exactly the same skype for who it doesn't work. The company I work for provides the same machines with the same image to everyone and some have problems and some don't. It isn't the machine or the installation.

    2. kb
      WTF?

      Re: Microsoft need to re-learn the basics

      The problem isn't the OS, its you. It sounds like you have a corrupted Skype install, I've seen it happen a ton of times, what you need is an unattended Skype install and luckily that is free. Just go to ninite.com and check the box for Skype, while you are there you might as well check the box for any software you have as it'll update it if there is a newer version and skip it if there isn't, and just let its do its thing. That will fix your Skype problems in a snap.

      as for search, while it works fine for me if you need deep level searches you are better off with something like Copernicus or Agent ransack, both do deep level searches better than the built in Windows search. Why people can't just organize their folders into logical groups I'll never know, but at least you do have choices.

      And I'm gonna assume you meant good and not food, but frankly win 7 does have a LOT of good features, you simply have to use them. For example jumplists and breadcrumbs make getting back to where you were the previous day trivial, Readyboost can give your programs a speedbump by using a flash for random reads,and the split folder feature (simply slam a folder to the left or right of your monitor to have it take exactly half the screen) makes file and folder comparisons fast and easy, and the libraries feature makes combining media spread over multiple drive behave as if its all in one folder. This combined with file2folderGUI and media center master makes WMC into a great HTPC with all the artwork and synopsis loaded and ready to go, really makes movie night a pleasure.

  74. This post has been deleted by its author

  75. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    They should advertise the ability to switch interfaces between new and old on Windows 8 and lower the price of the upgrade (currently a fair £24.99) to match Mountain Lion.

    Instead they're raising prices and pushing the tiles, which are quite slick on a crippled tablet or smart phone, but not on a proper computer.

  76. adam payne Silver badge

    They can relaunch it as many times as they like I still will not be buying it or a new PC with it.

    It's Windows 7 with a flashy touch screen interface (sorry make that Silverlight).

  77. David Simpson 1
    Devil

    "Windows 8, though, was a radical departure that Microsoft had to flaunt. It introduced touchscreen input"

    ~Nope touchscreen input has existed since XP tablet edition. Windows 7 even had gestures, they just finally managed to make a touchscreen UI in Windows 8, not hat anyone cares anymore.

    If Google can centralise updates and combine Chrome OS with Android we really will see Microsoft sinking to rule the living room games market and hopefully are children can grow up in a software world without Microsoft.

  78. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Don't need it, don't want it

    The MS business model of churning out a new OS and Office version every couple of years has never been popular with most business or personal users.

    Most people, once they have got used to how something works, just want it to stay the same so they can leverage thgeir experience, and to have the bugs eliminated.

    Who wanted W8 other than fanbois and neophiles - no-one. For business it's a vast expense in re-training, new 3rd party H/W when the old drivers no longer work, re-deployment and for no real gain. Personal users usually only get a new OS because it comes with their new H/W.

    The better MS make their OS, the less need people have for a new one.

  79. Zot

    Dodgy product placement on TV

    I saw a really awkward moment on one of those TV cop/forensic shows (can't remember which one).

    The character gingerly picked up a chunky tablet with Windows 8 on it, and slowly went to search something on it, for no reason at all it seemed, with the camera zooming right in to the display. Then he put the thing down immediately and turned to the Mac on his desk that was in front of him all the time. The actor seemed like he knew none of it made any sense to the scene.

    Anyhoo, I burst out laughing, in a nerdy fashion of course. 8D

  80. Green Nigel 42

    Don't Panic!

    "Now OEM's", whirred Balmer, "I present you with a simple choice! Either die in the vacuum of space or" ... he paused only for melodramatic effect, ''tell me how good Windows 8 is!"

  81. agricola

    Where's the NEWS, El Reg?

    Microsoft blaming someone else? Give us some real news. please.

    Here's a scoop for you: in six months, it'll be us idiot consumers to blame for MS's problems.

    Here's the solution for Microsoft: assume COMPLETE control of the business by building the hardware yourselves, a la your most hated rivals.Then you wouldn't be at the mercy of all those nincompoops who don't know how to build or sell stuff, or follow directions.

    Then you'd have all the glory.

  82. ABapple

    End of XP support will force decision

    I have two tower ATX boxes with Intel MBs from approx. 2006. No MB support (audio, LAN, etc) for Win 7 or 8. The hardware is solid and gets the job done with XP.

    I probably will pick up a $39 Win 8 pro upgrade license for a lenovo laptop running Vista just to check it out.

    On the desktops will I replace MB, MEM, CPU and some software in 2014? Probably cheaper to look at alternate OS. After 25 years might part ways with Microsoft.

    As for the tablet wars $200 kindle or Google nexus tablets meet my needs. For many users that is the new price-point not $500-$700.

    1. kb
      Happy

      Re: End of XP support will force decision

      May I make a suggestion? Look at the AMD Bobcat boards. these have an APU, so you have the CPU+GPU covered, AMD has opened all their drivers so you can run any OS that you want, and most importantly while they are quite cheap you'll get more performance than those circa 2006 machines while using less power under load than that 2006 machine uses idling.

      Because i'm guessing with Intel boards from 2006 we are talking Pentium 4s here and those chips were truly awful, they just gulp power while giving just lousy performance. With the Bobcat you get dual cores plus an HD6310 GPU that does full 1080P over HDMI and at just 18w under load the amount you'll save in power alone makes it well worth the switch.

  83. ecofeco Silver badge

    But who's fault is it that 8 sucks?

  84. Tim Bates
    FAIL

    Customers don't want it.

    Lately our computer sales conversations at work (small country town computer shop) have gone like this:

    Us: Now do you want Windows 7 or 8?

    Customer: Ummm. Does it matter?

    Us: Have you seen 8 at all?

    Customer: No

    Us: Come have a look and see what you think.... <opens RDP connection to Win8 VM>

    Customer: OK, so what's this program.

    Us: Well, that's the new "Start Menu"

    Customer: I think I want 7.

    Since Windows 8 came out, we've sold around 20-25 computers (laptops and desktops). Out of these, about 3 or 4 had Windows 8 (and one of those was a system I built for a friend for Christmas).

    1. the Jim bloke Bronze badge

      Re: Customers don't want it.

      What kind of friend lets a friend do Windows 8 ?

  85. fabianburan
    FAIL

    Epic Fail and MSFT is only to blame

    Microsoft is slowly losing control in my opinion of not only the hardware market, but the OS market. I don't know a single person who wants or is asking for a Surface tablet, nor do I know of a single person with a Microsoft Windows based phone. Google is relentless, and has consumed MIcrosoft in my opinion, and I base that on the fact that my teenagers are now asking for Chrome Books and new Droid phones for the upcoming Christmas. I run an IT shop with over 200 people, and the other day the we were in a meeting with a major IT software supply company and they asked our CIO if we used Linux, which our CIO didn't know any better and said no - no Linux here. Everyone looked at each other and finally, FINALLY, the managers stood up and said most of our core infrastructure is now on Linux. The CIO looked like he was ready to fire someone! The only thing we indicated running Microsoft was for our Exchange, Sharepoint and MS AD environment, other than that, it was useless. Most of our employees now carry iPad's, and we started supporting BYOD mid-last year. Microsoft is a dying beast who has seen better days, and will continue to fall behind as long as they don't listen to their customers. Their best bet at this point is to provide infrastructure core services and bite the bullet on consumer based products. Sorry Microsoft but your letting the wrong people make the decisions.

  86. MrRtd

    Typical

    Notice this is a common response of Microsoft whenever something doesn't go their way. It's everyone else's fault, OEM's, other software companies, users, and the list goes on.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Typical

      Indeed, it was apparently our fault that we lost the start button on the taskbar too.

  87. Tree
    Flame

    Kick the can

    Reboot. What is that? Didn't they already can the designer of the 8th wonder of the windows world? Are they gonna ask him to bend over again for a second boot in the can? What was his name? Does he have a job now? He can consult as a motivational speaker explaining how to live with your failures and rise from the ashes. Maybe he can explain the Metro gestures in front of a live audience for the edification of those at the Gurgleplex. It ought to bring down the house.

  88. sniffles20
    Meh

    MS needs to re-evaluate their product or promotion methods

    OK, so MSFT blames manufacturers? What was their role in promoting this new product, which is a huge departure from the previos OS? What effort was made by MSFT in making it easier for manufacturers to transition from the old system to the new?

    And now the pc is becoming touch based instead of keyboard based, and consumers must purchase new monitors to experience the full benefit of the new operating environment.

    Touch screens are great for walking(android phones and tablets), standing(cashiers, restaurant applications) but awkward for desktop pc's and laptops in the office setting, where often the screen is not near you. It has to be seen as workable; I didn't see much promotion on microsofts part in displaying this to the public at large, and apparantly to pc builders as well. Would they invest new equipment in an application that may flop? What is the benefit to pc and laptop consumers in having touch screen monitors?

    You can't just make a new product and expect it to sell itself. They did not convince consumers that this is workable, apparantly the pc builders weren't even convinced.

    If this product is successful it is going to be a long slow transition. And it will be the consumers who decide this.

    Microsoft expected too much I'm afraid.

  89. Tex Arcana
    Mushroom

    Win8: Small&Limp's attempt to go iPC...

    The same old story: M$ wants monopoly, and can't quite get the public (who just eat up those pesky iPads and iPwns), or government groups (who occasionally do THE RIGHT THING for their public), or even corporations (DON'T THEY KNOW THEY'RE JUST LIKE US, PROFITMONGERS??) to play ball and let them have that li'l ol' monopoly!! And every time they try, they do something PROFOUNDLY stupid, pad their numbers, then try to blame ANYONE else they can for their failures.

    And, the story repeats itself yet again: M$ makes an OS that is completely out of touch with reality, tries to shove down the world's collective throats, then blames everyone else (including the CUSTOMERS!!) when we gag and spit it out.

    You'd think they'd have learned their lessons LOOOONG ago (Fista, ME, Ribbon).

    But, no: they thought that tablets were going to replace EVERYTHING--maybe eventually, but nowhere near to "yet" at this point. So they tried to obsolete every desktop with this abominations--tell me, who is going to run out a buy a win8 tablet? Or a touch-screen monitor, for that matter??

    And the ergonomics of this: if you're using a desktop, are you wanting to remover you hands from the keyboard to reach UP and OUT to touch something on a screen?? Especially super-repetitive gestures and commands?? Hell, millions of users will learn keyboard commands ([win]___ and [alt]___ and [ctrl]____) to KEEP THEIR HANDS ON THE KEYBOARD AND OFF THE MOUSE!!

    Again, repetitive gestures that aren't ergonomic, and can potentially cause Repetitive Stress Injury. Perhaps ol' Steve got a nice "bonus" from the Shoulder Surgeons of America to help drive their businesses... :tard:

    I think the biggest blind spot any software engineer has, is the human interface: they forget that humans have limitations, and that certain motions are just more humanly efficient. Kind of like how software engineers forget that, for the average or lesser user, what's super-simple to them and self-evident, isn't to the average joe; and never will be.

    And M$ repeatedly violates simple ergonomic principles EVERY FREAKING TIME they do something this stupid.

    Will they ever learn??

    Meanwhile, I'll stick to Win7 and my iPad; and if they decide to remote-kill Win7 from Mount Doom, then I'll switch to Linux, and never look back.

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