back to article Nokia axes 300 IT bods, outsources 820 to Tata, HCL

Nokia will outsource 820 IT staff and make 300 more redundant, leaving a skeleton IT operation at the troubled phone maker. Up to 560 staff will transfer to Tata Consultancy Services and 260 to HCL Technologies, both of which are headquartered in India. Nokia says it has a relationship with the pair. Only small teams will …

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  1. Just a geek
    Unhappy

    Nokia to align IT function with its business focus

    which with Nokia seems to be 'outsource it! outsource it!!'

    1. Bob Vistakin
      FAIL

      Re: Nokia to align IT function with its business focus

      For those living under a rock for the last 30 years, this is known as "The Microsoft Effect".

      What follows is job losses, shit products, loss of market share and previously loyal customers suddenly hating you before inevitably you go bust and history records you forever as just another of Microsofts bitches. Mysteriously, however, the top brass who's palm was greased with silver over the original deal always seem to do very well out of it..

      1. Philip Lewis
        Childcatcher

        Re: Nokia to align IT function with its business focus

        Jesus H. Fucking Christ, Bob. I have had to upvote you again.

      2. WatAWorld

        Re: Nokia to align IT function with its business focus

        I don't know why you're on about MS over this.

        It happens with any OS, including the mainframe IBM OSes that were around when Bill Gates was a lad in shorts and Unix.

        But you're right about the bribes, er uh, "fishing trips, free meals, conventions in Bahamas, etc. that are an integral part of doing business". I didn't mention them in my earlier post.

        And if the bribes aren't enough, chances are your executive quits and gets hired on at a huge salary by the new outsourcer.

        1. WatAWorld

          I see the MS reference now, someone else made the same oversight below

          There is a huge difference, a mammoth difference, between doing an MS (or IBM) and opening an office in India and hiring staff loyal to you there, and outsourcing to staff loyal to another company.

          Switching to an outsourcer, means having staff dedicated to transferring as much wealth as possible from your company to their company.

          It matters not if the outsources is in India, the USA or UK -- look at the NHS e-health contracting. Look at other government contracting to domestic body shops.

          It is the change in IT staff allegiance that kills your business. They go from being loyal leaches trying to cost their company as little as possible to leaches loyal to an external blood sucking enterprise that is trying to drain your company of as much wealth as possible.

      3. TheVogon Silver badge
        Mushroom

        Re: Nokia to align IT function with its business focus

        Nokia just returned from losses to profitability though (in no small part due to high sales of the Lumia Windows Phone limited only by supply) so clearly what they are doing is working...

        http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2013/01/18/a-smart-move-for-nokia.aspx

        http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2013/jan/10/nokia-lumia-record-demand

  2. I think so I am?
    Mushroom

    That's a lot of tech staff to outsource especial for a Tech company! Beginning of the end me thinks.

    1. TheVogon Silver badge
      Mushroom

      Cutting costs is normal for a company that is restructuring.

      1. WatAWorld

        They're cutting productivity, not costs.

        They're switching from staff loyal to making them Nokia profitable to staff loyal to billing Nokia as much as possible.

        The sound you hear is a death knell.

        Good to hear this now as I'd been thinking of getting one of their phones.

        1. Manu T

          "Good to hear this now as I'd been thinking of getting one of their phones."

          Unfortunately that 808 PV is their only real smartphone around. All that WP-stuff is more like a featurephone with more apps than the regular featurephones. A superfeaturephone like the iPhone. Way to restricted to be really usefull but great to show off for 5 minutes at a party.

          Besides I need 2-way call recording. My 2005 SE K750i had it, my 2008 WM 6.1 Samsung Omnia had it and since then all my Symbian devices had it (improved with automatic call recording even). I can't go back to pre-2005 era crapphones. Especially since these days calling while driving is prohibited in most o/t western world not to mention that automatic call-recording saves me over 20000 UKP a year (for not hiring a secretary to handle my calls).

          I was hoping that RIM's new offering might provide call-recording but I doubt it. Which means i have no choice. The only phone available to handle call-recording out of the box is a symbian device.

          And NO I'm NOT interested in tampering/rooting/jailbreakin nor custom firmware etc.. That's way too much hassle for a device that should JUST WORK!

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        > Cutting costs is normal for a company that is restructuring.

        Even more so for a company that's going arse over tit.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Hardly, people outsource to get flexibility.

      It's like hosting, you can do it in house but if you want more capacity or less capacity then that means either buying kit or mothballing it.

      Same goes for the workforce. You outsource the more generic business functions if you need flexibility.

  3. Jess

    Re: Beginning of the end me thinks.

    Beginning?

    Phase 2 or 3 at least.

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Hardly

    A look at the recent Nokia financial results and the improvement in the past few months of their share price points to this hardly being the beginning of the end, but rather the start of a fantastic new chapter of rebirth and growth in the company. Their Windows Phone 8 range was sold out for weeks you couldn't buy one anywhere. People are starting to realise there is now a viable alternative to Android and Apple backed by two companies who know a thing or two about computers and mobile phones. What better partnership for your smartphone?

    1. Silverburn
      Pint

      Re: Hardly

      "I'll have what he's having"

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Hardly

        And thn you should probably smoke it ;)

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Hardly

      Em, a tech company with no tech. Sounds promising !

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Hardly

      That's one of the poorest shills I've seen for a long time - if I was Microsoft I'd be asking for my money back.

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Hardly

      "backed by two companies who know a thing or two about computers and mobile phones"

      I didn't realise that Nokia & MS were getting new expert partners involved

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Hardly

        Google didn't exist until 1998, Nokia were producing smartphones a year after in 1999 (Nokia 9100). We all know about Microsoft, much of the early home computer revolution was powered with Microsoft BASIC, being the first thing you saw when you switched on a Commodore PET.

        Google haven't developed much from scratch, a few "me too" web services and some search engine technology. Android was developed by Android Inc who Google purchased. The core of the OS is Linux based, again not developed by Google.

        Windows Phone 8 is developed by Microsoft, with some contributions from Nokia. I'd call that a lot more of an achievement than using some free OS, a hacked up version of Java started by Apache and some iPhone insired UI designs.

        1. Richard Plinston Silver badge

          Re: Hardly

          > powered with Microsoft BASIC,

          MS Basic may well have been used on several early computers but it wasn't written from scratch. It was based on an open source BASIC interpreter for DEC machines, such as the one that BillG programmed at Harvard. Development for Intel 8080 was done using compilers on DEC so the Altair BASIC was developed on DEC at a university (which BillG never paid for the time used) and transferred to Altair on paper tape.

          MS-DOS was developed by SCP and initially licenced and then bought outright by MS.

          MS-SQL server was bought from Sybase. FrontPage was developed by Vermeer Technologies Inc. The original MS C was bought from Lattice.

          In fact most of Microsoft was 'me too' either copying what was already on the market or just buying in a product.

        2. Chemist

          Re: Hardly

          Evening RICHTO, still plugging away at the cr*p

          "much of the early home computer revolution was powered with Microsoft BASIC"

          much of the early home computer revolution was hindered with Microsoft BASIC - fixed

          1. WatAWorld

            Re: Hardly

            So Chemist, you preferred x86 assembler?

            Why don't I believe that.

            1. Chemist

              Re: Hardly

              Me, I jumped from SC/MP assembler to 6809 assembler/Forth to C on 68K and the x86 C under Linux. I have used a MS 6502 ROM basic but it had a huge bug in its garbage collector.

              Today all 6 current machines run Linux.

              I suppose you don't believe any of this either, but I must admit I don't really care.

    5. Paul 75

      Re: Hardly

      Come on Elop, don't post anonymously!

    6. Anonymous Coward
      WTF?

      Re: Hardly

      Lol, you really believe that tripe don't you.

      Nobody I know owns windows phone, you never see them out and about either.

      It's a total failure.

    7. Philip Lewis
      Pint

      Re: Hardly

      I don't know what you are smoking, but could you please put me on to your supplier, because I want some - NOW!

  5. gjw
    FAIL

    Beginning of the End

    The things that led up to the N97 disaster were the beginning of the end afaic. They're just winding up now.

  6. Ralph B
    Thumb Up

    Finally!

    Finally, Nokia are concentrating on their core business again!

    1. WatAWorld

      Re: Finally!

      Are they leaving technology and going to strictly stick to sales and marketing other people's products?

  7. Dan 55 Silver badge
    Mushroom

    Still haven't taken their inept marketing department out back and shot them?

    Then they're not really fixing the problem them.

    Well, unless they made a start by taking Elop out back and shooting him.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Still haven't taken their inept marketing department out back and shot them?

      I'm not sure they've got an 'out back' any more - I think they've sold it off. They'll have to take them out front!

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    "Windows Phone 8 handset maker"

    Not "Finnish phone maker" any more...

    1. Silverburn

      Re: "Windows Phone 8 handset maker"

      "Finnish"?

      Just finished more like.

  9. James 47

    HCL were there already for about two years. Raise a ticket, hear nothing back

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Singapore based companies are better. They say "yes yes yes"' first of all, and only then do nothing. Communication is important, don't they know that? ;)

    2. Just a geek
      Meh

      James47 - Hah! I remember that and all the moaning about them on the internal facebook tool (socialcircle or socialjerk or something it was called).

      At least I got paid off by Nokia a year ago, rather that than getting shifted sideways into HCL. I feel for those left behind.

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    it wasn't the n97 vs the iphone

    ...it was Elop, who completely betrayed them as he bent over forwards for his old lover Ballmer.

  11. The Alpha Klutz

    im sick of getting turned down at job interviews for not being indian

    okay i said it. when the guy interviewing you is indian, and all his staff are indians, and he says you can do the job but he gives the job to another indian because you are white - that is racism. and ive seen it so many times.

    1. WatAWorld

      Re: im sick of getting turned down at job interviews for not being indian

      Indian, Chinese, American, ...

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: im sick of getting turned down at job interviews for not being indian

      I think they'ŗe trying it on with contracts in Europe as well. The clue is they never phone you back, even though you might be the only candidate that speaks the relevant local language and has the right skills and certs... I think they are routinely lying to the customer who needs the staff, too.

      Presumable they just keep searching and searching and then lose the contract. Do their bosses in UK know, or the press?

      Any elections coming up soon? Maybe some big fines to the agencies for violating EU and UK employment and discrimination regs or a couple of weeks porridge would wake them up.

      Could be ever so easily tested by a couple of journalists or an EU researcher, just make up a name for a suitable CV ;)

      1. The Alpha Klutz

        Re: im sick of getting turned down at job interviews for not being indian

        i'm going to set up an Indian account on monster and put on the Short Circuit accent and take the piss with these guys.

  12. J. R. Hartley Silver badge
    Meh

    Nokia is going the way of Commodore

    They had it all, but they fucked it all away :/

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Nokia is going the way of Commodore

      Ahh, reminds me of the old Whitney Houston song ....

  13. Stretch

    "Nokia to align IT function with its business focus"

    how do you align with "up own arse"?

  14. Daniel B.
    Unhappy

    So the MS philosophy is infesting Nokia as well

    MS, and companies living in the MS ecosystem are the ones that rely heavily in outsourcing everything to India. So it seems Elop is infesting Nokia with this mindset as well. So sad...

    1. WatAWorld

      between opening an office in India and hiring staff loyal to you, and outsourcing to staff

      There is a huge difference, a mammoth difference, between opening an office in India and hiring staff loyal to you there, and outsourcing where you're getting staff loyal to another company.

      Opening an office in India, or other comparatively low wage area, like Ireland or Canada, that cuts payroll expenses.

      Switching to an outsourcer, means having staff dedicated to transferring as much wealth as possible from your company to their company.

  15. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Can all the prophets, oracles and technology visionaries on here who have all posted to say that Nokia is heading for the wall please back up their claims with facts, figures & URLs where applicable?

    It just seems to be a bunch of Android fandroids spouting doom and gloom because they are concerned about an OS that isn't tied to one specific hardware manufacturer that could eat at Androids marketshare in 2/3 years time.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Stop

      When was the last time saw anyone with a Nokia smartphone

      Exactly....

      A barren marketplace and a non existent user base and some BS to keep shareholders happy

      1. Philip Lewis
        Thumb Up

        Re: When was the last time saw anyone with a Nokia smartphone

        I have an N9 (I am sure that rates) and I like it a lot.

        OTOH, I have only ever seen 1 windows phone "in the wild".

        Make of that what you will!

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: When was the last time saw anyone with a Nokia smartphone

          Hmmm, seems to be a lot of ex-demo white 64GB ones on sale in these here parts for about 220UKP, or 185 for the 16GB one. If I had that sort of dough sitting... trust me ...... add-to-basket ahoy!

    2. Richard Plinston Silver badge

      > please back up their claims with facts, figures & URLs where applicable?

      > because they are concerned about an OS ... that could eat at Androids marketshare in 2/3 years time.

      What astounding irony. You demand facts and figures and then make completely unsupported speculative claims.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Well I will start with

        http://wmpoweruser.com/the-us-windows-phone-market-share-grew-50-between-q2-and-q3-2012/

        And apple market share to be overtaken by 2016 -

        http://www.dazeinfo.com/2013/01/16/sales-of-windows-phone-smartphones-in-q4-2012/

        1. Richard Plinston Silver badge

          > http://wmpoweruser.com/the-us-windows-phone-market-share-grew-50-between-q2-and-q3-2012/

          According to that:

          """This would mean Windows Phone added around 1 million users from Q2-Q3 2012, while iOS added 4.3 million users, and [Android] 5.8 million users."""

          It doesn't seem that WP is gaining ground.

          > And apple market share to be overtaken by 2016 - http://www.dazeinfo.com/2013/01/16/sales-of-windows-phone-smartphones-in-q4-2012/

          There are always going to be crap predictions by companies that sell these to the highest bidder. For example previous predictions were that WP would have 9% share in 2012 and would overtake Apple by 2015.

          http://techcrunch.com/2012/01/19/isuppli-agrees-with-idc-gartner-windows-phone-to-surpass-ios-by-2015/

          Her's an earlier prediction that had WP at 3.9% by 2014 (and Symbian at 30%). They just make stuff up.

          http://www.gartner.com/it/page.jsp?id=1434613

          1. WatAWorld

            "The US Windows Phone market share grew 50% between Q2 and Q3 2012" that seems like gaining ground to me.

    3. WatAWorld

      I am thinking you are an accountant, because you can't look at a change in systems and see what it means unless you have links and spreadsheets.

      Imagine we outsourced the British Army to Pakistan. Less cost. Guys can shoot just as good. What would the change be to the effectiveness of Britain's national defense?

      Do you need links and spread sheets to tell me that?

      It has nothing to do with Windows for phones, Android or iOS. It has everything to do with outsourcing key parts of the business.

      It is not that Windows means no need for programmers, it is hiring programmers whose loyalty is to boosting their billings to Nokia.

    4. Chemist

      " about an OS that isn't tied to one specific hardware manufacturer"

      er, like Android, do you mean ?

  16. Paul J Turner

    prophets, oracles and technology visionaries

    Or you could just actually read the whole article and follow the links -

    Here's a URL - http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/01/11/nokia_q4_2012_preliminary/

    Go read the facts and figures.

    If this article is still writable on the 24th I'll add a link to their woeful financials (That's prophecy!)

  17. Philip Lewis
    FAIL

    So, these are supported speculative claims then?

    Worthless shill crap ...

  18. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Ive used both those companies

    ...and they're not very good. Polite, yes. Very good? no.

    For companies that are a good four hours ahead of us, they never emailed or replied or did any work on the system, before I got in UK time, even if I tasked them with work the evening before.

    Like a lot of Indian outsourcers, some gifted staff, mostly dross though.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Ive used both those companies

      Still look on the bright side, must have massively boosted the takings of some restaurants in Espoo for a few days. Which will be going down below normal longterm afterwards, of course ;)

  19. WatAWorld

    The outsourced IT department's job #1 will now be boosting billings

    In general, the problem with outsourcing IT is that other people's staff have different objectives than your own staff.

    Rather than boosting your own company's profits, the outsourced IT staff now want to boost the bodyshop's profits.

    That means hazy project objectives, specification creep, hard coding variables, hard to maintain code, reduced documentation, failure to streamline procedures, not passing on savings from when procedures are streamlined.

    All the wasteful stuff your own IT department tried to fight are highly desirable billing opportunities for your newly outsourced IT department.

  20. MrRtd

    Nokia, will be a textbook case of how to completely ruin a once successful global company. From #1 to 0 in record time.

    1. The Alpha Klutz

      lol

      I remember when Nokias were desirable, now talking about your Nokia is like knowingly giving someone AIDS.

  21. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Nail/head

    ...soundly connected by WatAWorld.

    The bottom line is that at a time when Nokia needs every employee to give 110% or more in order to survive they will now get what they contracted for and nothing more (unless it's additionally billed). The survival of Nokia is now only of secondary concern to a large group of people.

  22. Paul J Turner

    Re: prophets, oracles and technology visionaries

    As promised -

    Well, nearly good news in fact, $270M profit. The bad news, all made by cuts to production facilities, research facilities and 20,000 jobs.

    In terms of real business - "...revenue dropped to €8 billion ($10.6 billion) from €10 billion as smartphone sales plunged 55 percent..." and when they made that €10 Billion revenue the previous year, they made a $1 Billion loss with twice as much sales, so this is clearly a 'good' report driven by cuts.

    http://blogs.computerworld.com/windows-phone/21683/nokia-earnings-show-some-hope-windows-phone-lumias-lag-us-get-killed-china

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: prophets, oracles and technology visionaries

      Look at when the Lumia 920 was released. In 3 weeks it sold 4.4 million phones in China.

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