back to article 'Programming on Windows 8 just like playing bingo' - Microsoft VP

Windows developers have suffered multiple changes of direction in recent years. There is Win32, WPF (Windows Presentation Foundation), Silverlight, and now WinRT (Windows Runtime), the platform formerly known as Metro. Can they be confident in the longevity of the new thing, or might it be swept away in favour of some other new …


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  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    It's a shame this dude was running late for the presentation.

    at least I assume he was, he's got his electric shaver with him.

    1. Fihart

      Re: It's a shame this dude was running late for the presentation.

      Clearly not a shaver or that ghastly 'tache would have been gone.

      Incidentally, don't you just hate those boy-beards the hipsters are currently sporting.

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Only 'Very committed' then?

    Thanks for the heads-up. I'll give WinRT three years max before is it 'All Change Please' once again.

  3. Bronek Kozicki Silver badge
    Thumb Down

    thx for asking about variadic templaces

    seems like proper commitment, this time.

    1. boltar Silver badge

      Re: thx for asking about variadic templaces

      Are variadic templates "critical" other than for producing even more unreadable and unintelligable code than can be managed by normal templates? I avoid templates like the plague unless there's a really good reason or I have to use them ( eg STL). Seems to me C++ is just turning into a language geeks wish list rather than a clear and sensibly designed programming language for developers who simply use it as a means to an end. (And yes, I am a C++ developer).

      1. rhdunn

        Re: thx for asking about variadic templaces

        Variadic templates simplify things like std::tuple and std::function and forwarding functions (think of things like std::bind1st, std::bind2nd and boost::bind). The way Boost and VC2012 implement them is to explicitly generate N versions of those classes/functions (1 template arg, 2, ..., N). For example:

        template<typename T1> struct tuple;

        template<typename T1, typename T2> struct tuple;

        template<typename T1, typename T2, ..., typename Tn> struct tuple;

        With variadic templates, this simplifies to:

        template<typename T1...> struct tuple;

        This is not only less code (easier to maintain), but the compiler performance is orders of magnitude better at compiling them (memory and speed). The gcc version goes from exponential time with the number of template parameters to a second. [See].

        1. CmdrX3

          Re: thx for asking about variadic templaces

          You see, this is why I never became a software programmer, you lost me at.... Re: thx for asking about

          I wish I could, I really do but my brain laughs at me anytime I try.

          1. Nigel 11

            @Cmdr3X Re: thx for asking about variadic templaces

            If you still want to learn programming, start with the right language. These days I'd suggest Python. Anyway, definitely a scripting language (interpreted), so you can type bits of code at the computer and immediately see what they do. As a side-bonus, you won't need to pay a penny for a compiler or a developer environment (even if you are determined to stick with Windows).

            If you get to the point where you are a competent programmer and are being frustrated by the slowness of code written in your script language of choice, you might then consider learning a compiled language. (But do first make sure someone hasn't already written what you need!)

        2. boltar Silver badge

          Re: thx for asking about variadic templaces

          "think of things like std::bind1st, std::bind2nd and boost::bind"

          I'd rather not thanks, I've just had lunch. C++ was supposed to make programming easier compared to C. Its actually done the opposite by creating a syntax so vast and obtuse with some much potential for implicit code execution, its close to vying with Perl as a write only language. Thats a big fail IMO, however I don't expect many people to share it.

          1. sed gawk

            Re: thx for asking about variadic templaces

            It's not that bad, You don't have to rushing to write the cleverest template code you can.

            Write simple code and C++ is a lovely language to work in provided you follow the rule.

            Finally you have both typedef and a macro pre-processor, you really don't have any excuse for code that's hard to read.

            Boost and the STL contain some very clever code (a bit hard to read, I grant you) but there are quite a few open source frameworks which are rather easy on the eye, try looking at for an example of clean easy readable C++ write on top of Boost no less.

      2. Bronek Kozicki Silver badge

        Re: thx for asking about variadic templaces

        Good you asked.

        Yes, variadic templates (and templates in general) are important. Rember "printf"? Remember what happens when you use wrong type in format string? Templates in general help to avoid these problems. Since you do *use* templates (in standard containers) you probably did notice that they are not actually difficult to use. They are sometimes difficult to write, but that is slightly different from *using* them (slightly, because in both cases you have to learn to understand compiler errors thrown at you).

        Back to "printf" - variadic templates enable someone (not necessarily you) to write a function taking unbound number of parameters (like printf does) and process these parameters during compilation time, thus enabling type safety (which variadic macros do not provide). In practice this means allowing one to write functions with interface similar to "printf", where compiler actually knows types of all parameters supplied when you call it. You don't have to write such a function - but as explained above, writing is not the same as using.

        And frankly, if you are too dumb to learn how to use templates (or exceptions, destructors etc.), perhaps C++ isn't for you. There is plenty of less demanging languages to choose from.

        1. Bronek Kozicki Silver badge
          Thumb Up

          Re: thx for asking about variadic templaces

          hah, just noticed my slip of the tongue.

          demanging - damaging if your skillset is not up to level demanded by the tool.

  4. Christoph Silver badge


    Can anyone strip all the marketing jargon and handwaving out of that and work out what, if anything, he's actually saying? There seems to be a lot of vague promises and assurances, but that's about all.

    Microsoft have a history of messing about with programming interfaces - look at all the different database access methods they went through.

    1. GavinC

      Re: What?

      Here's my take on what was said - Microsoft is committed to all the technologies in Win8 for the life of Win8. i.e they make no promises they will survive in Win9.

      In fairness though, while Microsoft may have went through many database access methods (to use your example), all of them continue to work in Win7.

    2. Blain Hamon

      I was about to say,

      I had thought aManFromMars had broke loose and now was doing the interview. Actually, where is our favourite martian, to suss this all out?

    3. TheOtherHobbes

      Re: What?

      Reading carefully, and passing the text through my special MS manadjmuntspeak tranzlator, it looks to me like he said 'MS is totally TeH Win. I love you. Apart from that, whatevs babe.'

      Anyone who thinks Win RT is going to be any kind of standard should be sentenced to a lashing by the Cat o' Nine iOS Fails.

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    bla bla from Soma

    Another bunch of marketing bla bla from Soma.

    The messaging hasn't been very good, when they first announced WinRT, it sounded like .Net was dead.

    They talk up Xaml a lot, but it seems like each platform has a distinct and not very compatible version. Silverlight is a lot like WPF, but its different enough to be a real pain.

  6. Jad

    'just like playing bingo' ...

    I would have thought more like playing Russian Roulette!

    1. hplasm Silver badge

      Re: 'just like playing bingo' ...

      Either way, it confirms that Windows 8 is a true gaming platform...

      1. Nigel 11

        Re: 'just like playing bingo' ...

        I think you meant "a true gamble" not a true gaming platform ....

  7. historymaker118


    Masters of double speak. Sounds just like another bunch of marketing hype over something that is probably destined to fail. The end of microsoft can't come soon enough for me!

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Windows

      Microsoft has its faults, for certain, but there are a lot of us totally reliant on the MS legacy for our livelihoods. I looked into linux as an alternative a long while ago, and to be honest the opportunities for earning money just couldn't match up, and they still don't (unless you're really at the top of your game - and by definition not everybody can be!).

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Windows

        Funny you should say that... I look at my income over the 2011—2012 financial year... and maybe 1% of my earnings had anything to do with Windows.

        Namely, fixing up a problem with a web page that wasn't loading right in IE8. (the web application is the front-end of an energy management system.) Everything else for me revolved around Linux.

  8. mraak
    Thumb Up

    It's great

    All you need is 40GB Visual Studio

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: It's great

      Here's a quid, so you can get the extra space required...

  9. etabeta

    I'll take his word

    ...So programming on Win 8 is a big gamble...he said it, not me!

    1. Tom 35 Silver badge

      Re: I'll take his word

      There is no gamble at all.

      They have removed a few of the balls so there is no way your going to win.

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    pretending any of it was his idea

    gotta laugh.

    basically Windows said "jump" and the Visual Studio team said "how high"

    after a brief rebellion where they tried to create .Net, WPF and Silverlight as attempts to stay relevant the Windows team has reminded them that developers hate this "new shiny objet" churn and put them back to writing tools for languages that work and have a future.

    an example... while Microsoft thrashed about taking Classic ASP and bolting on about 4 releases of .Net to make it monolithic and complex PHP and Python continued to evolve as small agile solutions... the impact seems to be that IIS and .Net lost the traction asp had got as developers voted with their IDEs. Android, iOS, OSX ... they all have one predominant way of doing things and you know it's got a decade or more of life... on Windows (x86, RT or Phone) you're lucky if the landscape stays recognizable for 18 months.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: pretending any of it was his idea

      PH - egh, yuck. sorry I think a house fly flew into my mouth - P

    2. Sentient

      Re: pretending any of it was his idea

      Developers don't determine what platform consumers buy.

  11. Another Justin

    Whats the obsession with the name of the interface?

    Honestly, does anyone actually care that the new interface is no longer called "Metro"? Yes they had to change it for legal reasons and of course they don't really want to admit that, but does it actually matter? I for one couldn't really care less what they call it.

    1. hplasm Silver badge

      Re: I for one couldn't really care less what they call it.

      It's more how they call it- the APIs aren't consistent...

    2. AlexV

      Re: Whats the obsession with the name of the interface?

      Don't really care what they call it, as long as they call it *something*. At the moment, they haven't got a name for it, just a bunch of descriptions. "Modern apps", "Windows 8 apps", "Windows store apps", etc. Those aren't names. Call it "Squareo" or "Touchblox" or whatever you like, we'll get used to it as long as they don't keep changing it.

  12. Michael H.F. Wilkinson Silver badge

    On the photograph

    Soma seems to be doing an impression of a flounder. Is this to suggest Microsoft are floundering?

    Darn, I'm hungry now

    Mine is the one with Rick Stein's "Seafood" in the pocket (OK, in the backpack).

  13. btrower

    Saw the writing on the wall ...

    I saw the writing on the wall a long time ago, when MS ditched OS/2 APIs (pretty nice for their time) in favor of Win32 (pretty awful any time). The change was just so radical, and broke so much of our code more or less permanently, I determined that they either did not understand what was under all that or they had some strategic reason for creating the havoc. To be honest, even though I keep a tin-foil hat near me at all times, I am still not sure if we are facing incompetence, malice or some combination.

    What I advised back then, have continued to advise and essentially advise now is to abstract your own core business function so it does not care about the underlying APIs or metal and spend as little as possible on that. Concentrate instead on *data*, which, despite decades of thrashing about is still a very weak point in the entirety of the fortune 500 and government.

    As part of the data piece, I have, since the early 1990s advised to pay special attention to security. In my opinion, it is essentially impossible to secure most of the perimeter and hence it makes good sense to concentrate on 'core' stuff and protect that by having huge redundancy, integrity checks, and at all times 'proximal' (a few simple transforms away) human-readable representations. Humans can still spot 'blemishes' and tampering much better than any machine. Let the machine do exhaustive comparisons, but let people examine 'canvases' of data to spot problematic anomalies.

    Although I have kept abreast of things I have only coded against stuff like .NET or SOAP when specified by third parties and otherwise done vanilla code against thin abstraction layers using largely immutable stuff like ANSI-C. I have, admittedly, had more latitude than most, but nearly every working programmer has been presented (numerous times) with embracing the flavor of the week/month/year or taking a more conservative line. The conservative ones, in my opinion, have won hands down. If you are a programmer and you look under the covers you will see a *ton* of C/C++ code between whatever you are working with and the metal. It is not because other ways have not been tried. They have been tried and they have ultimately failed.

    At some level, you are obliged to embrace some third-party abstractions and protocols. Here, FWIW are some of the ones I have embraced:



    HTTP(S)/(S)FTP and similar long lived protocols



    [Binding SQL programmatically is an ongoing problem. I reluctantly use vendor stuff (MS, Oracle, etc) or other language bindings]


    .gz, .tar, .zip

    SAMBA & Co.

    Will MS change this again? Bet on it. I am.

  14. Another Justin

    Not really seeing the "change in direction", just need to choose the right tool for the job

    There may be a number of different tools, but thats becuase there are a number of different jobs (and some of the tools are older than others)

    - Win32 / GDI is the original API that has been around since the dawn of Windows. Its stable, reliable, its here to stay until the end of time (for backwards compatability reasons) and its also a pain in the ass to use because the API was designed before OOP became prominant (and also for backwards compatability reasons)

    - Windows Forms is essentially just a wrapper around the WIn32 API / GDI. Its stable, reliable, infinitely easier to use than the Win32 API, and again here to stay until the end of time.

    - WPF is for developers creating "rich" (i.e. flashy) user interfaces for desktop PCs. Windows forms is still built on top of GDI, a system originally designed at the time of 16-bit operating systems and so its not really geared around flashy interfaces. WPF aimed to make things easier by starting from the groud up with a new layout engine. Its future may not be as assured as Win32 or Windows Forms, but I'd say that its still a fairly safe bet that WPF will be around for a while.

    - Silverlight is a WEB technology, don't confuse Silverlight with WPF just because it uses XAML. There probably could have been more consistency with WPF, however in a lot of places the inconsistency is there because its a WEB technology and just can't do everything WPF can (e.g. for security reasons).

    - WinRT is a technology for building mobile (i.e. phone and tablet applications). Like Silverlight, don't confuse WinRT with WPF & the .Net framework just because it uses XAML, and again like Silverlight its inconsistent in places because you can't do everything that you can do on a desktop on a tablet. You woulnd't choose WinRT to build desktop applications, you choose WinRT to build mobile applications - the fact that they work on desktop PCs too is just a bonus.

    Maybe they could have been more consistent in places, but I don't really see the "change in direction" - Each of these technologies has its purpose (even if that purpose is allowing me to keep developing my legacy applications).

    In fact Microsoft are being pretty consistent with their use of existing languages (C#, XAML, HTML, JavaScript) even on new platforms. The only popular development environment I'm aware of which is more consistent across platforms is Java, and developing in Java is a pain in the ass.

  15. Paul Wells

    Visual Basic?

    Time to find the old disc of VB6 then.

  16. Stephen Channell

    It'll all become clear in Windows 9

    With Windows 9 Microsoft will enable “Modern UI” to be Windowed, re-sized and docked on a desktop computers and big-screen panels. The task-bar will be replaced with a Start bar that are active tiles instead of icons.. many will call it a return to Win7, but MS will describe it as WinPhone experience for large displays, and those without MS keyboards (that replace function-keys with a touch panel). There will be no return to the “start” button, but there will be a “Home” app that is more like a WinRT version of Win3 Program-Manager intended as a launch-pad for Windows-Store-Azure-Apps. Windowed WinRT apps will look pretty indistinguishable to WPF apps (which will gain traction after Microsoft open-sources .NET).

    We’d wonder what all the fuss was about, but will be told it was all needed because the Windows-8 touch interface didn’t fit with Windows-9’s gesture interface & kinetic keyboards.

    As for programming… even MFC will still be supported!

    1. N2 Silver badge

      Re: It'll all become clear in Windows 9

      Its the one thing thats consistent with Windows - the chant that it will all be fixed in the next version - yeah right.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: It'll all become clear in Windows 9

        Ohh, it'll be "fixed", but for every problem that is fixed, there are at least several things broken in the process.

  17. Ken Hagan Gold badge


    “But go back to Windows 32. That’s a platform that came out 15 or 20 years ago. That platform has stood the test of time. Take .NET for example. That has stood the test of time. Take WPF [Windows Presentation Foundation] for example. We absolutely continue to support WPF for desktop applications. Visual Studio uses WPF for its own application, because it makes sense in that scenario."

    He missed out Win64. This is sufficiently different from Win32 that most apps for the latter platform have not yet been ported. Perhaps he's drunk too much cool-aid and doesn't know this.

    Win32 is indeed still here, unless you are talking about their 64-bit Server platform, in which case it is an option. MS would rather you targetted Win64.

    .NET is not. (It's absence is the main reason why Win8 manages a smaller footprint than Win7.) It is true that there's some logic to automatically download it from the web if you try to install a .NET application, but the writing on the wall is clear -- MS would rather you didn't use this anymore. There was also (at least during the beta program) a nice bug whereby it would download the wrong language if you (say) bought a machine with US English pre-installed but immediately changed it to your local tongue. Apparently this was by design.

    Visual Studio uses just about everything (not just WPF) because it needs to let you develop for just about everything. Apart from the demo-ware aspect, you can't write a decent IDE without incorporating a little bit of "invasive" code to let you debug a given target. If he can't find a better example than VS then we can assume that WPF is moribund.

    1. dogged

      Re: Disingenuous

      .NET is not. (It's absence is the main reason why Win8 manages a smaller footprint than Win7.)

      Uh, what? Yes it is. .NET4 is installed by default, .NET3.5 (which is cumulative and contains .NET1, .NET1.1, .NET2.0, .NET3.0 and .NET3.5 itself) is an option install, like IIS.

      Where is all this ".NET IS DED O NOEZ WE IZ ALL DUMED" bullshit coming from? It can't be from .NET developers, who already know better.

      So what's the source? Ignorant people with big mouths or deliberate FUD? Gotta be one or the other.

      1. dogged

        Re: Disingenuous

        Oh, and @Ken Hagen -

        WPF is a Presentation Framework (hence the name). It can't do anything except draw shit on the screen (along with some stuff like bidirectional binding, which is nifty but exists for the purposes of, er, drawing shit on the screen).

        Nobody with any clue as to what they were talking would claim that VS2012 is written wholly in WPF because that would be impossible. Thus, I find your attack on the speaker either a) ignorant or b)... disingenuous.

  18. This post has been deleted by a moderator

    1. dogged


      None of the things you call dead are dead.

      Why are you lying?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward


        Well, dead, or persistent vegatative state. What's the practical difference?

        1. dogged

          Re: DOT NET IS DOT DEAD

          The only thing you can say that about is Silverlight.

          I don't know why the Reg keeps on running this same bullshit story day after day but as a dev/tech architect who is actively using and developing for Win8 right now, here's how it is.

          The .NET framework is a means of addresses core APIs via managed code. It also includes a lot of handy functionality and utility APIs. .NET 4.0 is bundled with Win8. You can't even disable it during the install - it is there whatever you do. It's regarded as a core part of the OS.

          In the past, .NET addressed the Win32 API. Then it was expanded to include the Win64 API. Now they've added the WinRT API to the functionality which .NET can address. Does WinRT have all the power of Win32? No. Does .NET address it? Yes.

          You can still write .NET code in VB, C#, (Managed) C++, F# and IronPython. You pick the platform you're targeting, you just have more choices than "Win32/Win64/Mixed".

          .NET 4.5 is now released and contains some pretty wow functionality in terms of the Web API and MVC4.

          Where the Reg and various commentards are getting ".NET is dead" is totally beyond me. It isn't. It's thriving and growing. Okay, you can now address WinRT with HTML5 and Javascript - yeah, so? You could write unmanaged C++ or even Delphi if you hated yourself that badly under all previous versions of Windows. So what?

          The article is just more of this outright falsehood. How in the hell is this being reported as fact?

          1. dogged

            Re: DOT NET IS DOT DEAD

            Edit button please - you can also say that about XNA, which, although it still works and can be used to develop desktop and XBox games, is not being updated and can't write Metro games. Like Silverlight which will be supported but not updated.

            But that's seriously it. Neither of those two addressed the full .NET framework anyway.

            Why does the Reg keep telling us .NET is dead when it clearly, to anyone who bothered who to even look for 5 seconds, isn't?


            1. This post has been deleted by a moderator

              1. This post has been deleted by its author

              2. dogged


                If you code like you write, then I'm pretty certain your "skills" match your knowledge of .NET by not existing at all.

      2. Tom 35 Silver badge


        'Ere, he says he's not dead.

        Yes he is.

        I'm not.

        He isn't.

        Well, he will be soon, he's very ill.

  19. Anonymous Coward

    As a .Net programmer

    I'm reading:

    "Er... it looks like we haven't put a lot of thought into this, and that we're making a huge balls up, but that's far from the truth. There's... a plan... to this... of sorts."

    Metro's TMed, so all change, after a year or so of chanting Metro.

    .Net support thrown in after JS/HTML5 and C++ makes .Net devs have kittens.

    XNA kinda supported, ish. Just like Silverlight. Well... less ish... that one's dying.

    Clearly the in-fighting at MS between high-level officials, and fear that they were falling behind in key markets (smart phone and tablet) has lead to, what can only politely be referred to, as a gigantic cluster fuck.

    Various people have gone to Ballmer saying "I have the silver bullet, this will sort things out", and he's loaded all of them into a gun, and is now wildly firing into the air.

    And they're all flying off in random, totally pointless directions. Much like where they seem to be sending us developers.

  20. LinkOfHyrule

    I played programming Bingo once

    It was very confusing - two fat ladies 88, yeah I understand that - but it got very confusing when the bloke plucking the balls out shouted - two fat fucks - FF! - programming Bingo uses hexadecimal in turns out!

  21. oroboros

    Of course it is marketing blather. Microsoft reinvents their developer paradigms continuously, and it isn't just some random mistake. There's plenty of money to been made every time they do it, from the Microsoft Certifications to the books to the new licensing deals for third party tool makers. Leading us all around by the nose is a big part of their business plan, of course they have a new paradigm for developers.

  22. rhdunn

    Career Path

    1. Answer questions without answering them... check.

    2. Say a lot without saying anything... check.

    Is Somasegar planning to move into politics?

    1. Manu T

      Re: Career Path

      "Is Somasegar planning to move into politics?"

      It wouldn't surprise me if early next year Sony hires him to "rescue" their smartphone busines >:->

  23. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Embarcadero unable to target the Windows Runtime?

    "many OS-supplied APIs which are required by anyone implementing their own language RTL are actually off-limits unless you’re the VC++ RTL DLL" link

  24. IGnatius T Foobar

    Microsoft API du jour

    Yet another API in the long line of Windows failures. Nobody cares anymore.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Microsoft API du jour

      OSX would dearly love to fail as hard.

  25. david 12 Bronze badge

    system APIs that only the Visual C++ runtime

    Which is to say, that msvcrt is the new system API. This is good news for open source projects targeting Windows -- they always use MSVC as the compiler, and they never have any idea about the Windows OS API, because they come from an environment where the OS API is, by tradition and definition, the C api.

  26. Fihart

    crimes against the english language

    Like so many corporate drones, Microsofties use language in a way that defies logic. Here they are trying to change history. It makes you wonder how any of them can write code that actually does what it says and isn't full of waffle and bloat.

    They had to change the name Metro -- NOT we only had Metro as a working title and now we've settled on the final name.

  27. All names Taken
    Paris Hilton

    I may be wrong but I don't see it as either or arguments between various flavours of design environments and coding languages.

    My simplistic view runs along lines of:

    Apple - controls/releases hardware and so has a tighter development framework and environment and strategically aims to make iOS stuff easy to do and pretty secure.

    MS - broad hardware support with variance across mains operated devices and various portable/battery operated items with a variety of power requirements so has to use a wider ranging software development solution (just look at the trouble websites have to display similarly across several browsers.

    Google - can't make its mind up yet. Will it be modelled more of Apple lines or MS lines? Or will it have to flexibly pick up changes where those just happen to be successful and grab public eye/purse/wallet and attention?

    Varied, loosely controlled hardware making for varied, loosely controlled design environments?

    1. Manu T

      re:All names Taken

      MS is trying to be more like Apple this time. With a walled garden approach introduced on Windows Phone 7 and pushed with loads of money into relative success. In fact punters even speak of a 3rd ecosystem... all I see is a Third Reich... >:->

  28. fixit_f
    Thumb Down

    Every time somebody uses the word "churn" in this context.....

    ...... I want to punch them full in the face.

  29. Field Marshal Von Krakenfart

    Er, I don’t know what Internet Explorer is called, said Somasegar.

    I do, its called a pile of crap.

  30. mark jacobs

    What is wrong with this dude?

    He absolutely keeps splitting infinitives with the word "absolutely". Especially when there's a valid criticism being levied at him. Jeez! What a d**k! Bring back Gates - at least he could program...

  31. Andrew Baines Silver badge

    Still waiting for a decent Java IDE

    Need someone to create a Java IDE as good as Visual Studio. then I can pack in C# and move to Java.

    Bit sad really, been using MS development since VB4.

    1. This post has been deleted by a moderator

      1. dogged

        Re: Still waiting for a decent Java IDE

        C# is an ECMA standard, liar. That's how come you can write C# for Mono under Linux. Further, there are two runtimes, 3.5 and 4. 3.5 contains all previous targets.

        It's pretty clear you know nothing about .NET. Please, keep your ignorance to yourself.

        1. This post has been deleted by a moderator

        2. rhdunn

          Re: Still waiting for a decent Java IDE

          Actually, there is the .NET 1.0 CLR, .NET 2.0 CLR (supporting generics) and .NET 4.0 CLR. I am not sure if .NET 1.1 uses the 1.0 CLR or if .NET 4.5 uses the 4.0 CLR, so that is at least 3 runtimes. The other .NET versions have different libraries that execute on those runtimes.

          The ECMA standard only applies to .NET 1.0 (maybe 1.1 or 2.0). It only covers a portion of the .NET library -- it excludes things like the Microsoft namespace, XML/XSL, WinForms, WPF, WCF, ASP.NET and other APIs. There hasn't been an update of the ECMA standard to cover new C#/other language features written on top of the CLR, or the newer runtimes and libraries.

          So if you are targetting the ECMA standard, you will be using C# 1.0 or 2.0 with a limited library available to you that excludes any UI or Web framework. Mono supports a lot more than that and tracks Microsoft's implementation of C#/.NET.

          And, for a large part, C# programs written for Windows make use of P/Invoke to call into the underlying Win32/64 APIs so cannot easily be ported to Mac/Linux/BSD/... -- they need to run on Wine.

  32. Charles Smith

    Same old, same old...

    Ho hum - the now classic adage comes to mind.

    "Never buy an even numbered version of the Windows operating system"

    The VP speaks pure marketing.

  33. This post has been deleted by a moderator

    1. Manu T

      Re: Charles Smith

      Guys, I've been telling you AGES ago.

      1) we are doomed!

      2) we are regressing NOT progressing

      In fact, I dare all of you "developper" to do the following!

      - Buy a Raspberry Pi

      - Run RISC OS on it

      --> start programming with the build in BBC Basic anex BASIC ARM assembler.

      No fancy stuff, pure programming your guts out. Make webbrowsers, music pograms, games even farting apps for all I care. All this on an easy to manage and maintain computer. In fact the ONLY operating system that EVERYBODY can start programming in. No fancy SDK's or expensive compilers needed. Just press F12, type BASIC and a start!

  34. John Smith 19 Gold badge

    "Any technology you see shipping as part of Windows 8, we are very committed to that. "

    Unless it drops like a stone, in which case we'll drop it like a stone.

    Look at what MS uses to develop its *key* products in.

    They will no doubt supply nearly *any* language if they see there's enough market.

    But seriously support it?

    Put it on a level playing field with their internal API's?

    Mine will have the dead tree copy of "Barbarians lead by Bill Gates." Well worth reading.

  35. Spotswood


    Life's good, shutup.

  36. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Another one of those bozos talking out his his ass.

    “We’ve had a fair amount of churn in our platforms,” he acknowledged.

    -but yet you still ADD to the confusing by releasing yet another platform.

    “The goal is definitely to have more consistency,” says Somasegar.

    - As clint would say: "Goals are like assholes, everybody at Microsoft is one!"

    "I asked Somasegar to clarify the naming around the platform formerly known as Metro. He did, up to a point."

    - Are you sure this guy is actually working at Microsoft? Because he knows as much as anyone else in the street. I guess they picked him out some bar downtown.

    "The commercial name for apps is Windows Store apps."

    - It seems the only thing they do at microsoft lately. Naming and re-naming stuff.

    “It’s really a bingo card,” he said.

    - WTF. So developers have to earn money by playing bingo!? Why don't I just go to the pub, have a couple of pints and play darts then?

    “The goal is to make it fair and open for everybody...

    - Oh Dear, another one of this bozos 'goals'. Isn't the frecking soccer match over yet? And when did Microsoft ever care about "fair and open for everybody"?

    And then ex-microsoft employees get involved in other companies and they fuck things up beyond belief. No wonder! Does this guy even know how to wipe his ass? Oh wait, He'll use a bingo card for that.... >:->

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