back to article Google defends drowning Acer's newborn Alibaba Linux mobe

Google exec Andy Rubin has defended his advertising giant's decision to block Acer from launching a mobile phone for Chinese e-commerce giant Alibaba, claiming the Android ecosystem is quite fragmented enough. The phone was supposed to launch on Friday, but hours before the event Acer, the handset's manufacturer, pulled out …

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  1. Anonymous Coward
    WTF?

    "what appears, at a glance, to be clear abuse of market power."

    Where is this abuse of market power? If Alibaba wants to release a OS that is an android variant, and if manufacturers want to release phones running that OS, they are still free to do so. But if that OS won't run all android apps, and if apps produced for that OS won't run on Android, then don't expect to have google play store on it, and don't expect support from Google.

    In what is this abuse of market power?

    1. Scott Earle
      Stop

      Re: "what appears, at a glance, to be clear abuse of market power."

      Yes, if Google don't want to support the manufacturer for those devices, that's fine.

      But Google told Acer that they would not get support for *any* devices if they released phones running Aliyun. That's anticompetitive, and feels a little like late-80s Microsoft.

      1. eulampios

        anticompetitve?

        Is it the same PC manufacturer that would not reimburse you an imposed anticompetitive Microsoft bundled license, unless you ship the machine to their facility at your own expense?

        Google told Acer that they would not get support for *any* devices if they released phones running Aliyun. Not a big deal? Acer gets the Android code free, right? Why not getting the source and develop it on their own?

        There might be a possible problem of Aliyun that uses Linux kernel to not comply with GPL though, since no one has heard of them publishing the code.

        1. Ian McNee
          FAIL

          Re: anticompetitve?

          Way to miss the point eulampios: Acer being shite and failing to seriously address the Windoze tax doesn't exonerate Google from flagrantly using their monopoly position to further their own interests at the expense of a potential competitor and ultimately end users.

          1. eulampios

            Re: anticompetitve?

            Ian, I don't find any anti-competitiveness in how Google reacted. Google is not perfect, e.g., using Apache license instead of GPL was not the best solution here that allowed so much proprietary junk in the ARM kernel builds. Google doesn't sell its Android, it gives it for free, but it asks something in return. Unfortunately, GPL does not protect Android from this kind of "rip-offs", forks would be OK though

            Were Aliyun free, It'd be another matter...

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: "what appears, at a glance, to be clear abuse of market power."

      You seem to have missed the bit where Google told Acer that they were out of the OHA, should they release a phone for Alibaba, which would be the abuse of market power.

      Imagine if MS told HTC that they couldn't produce phones for Android, if they still wanted to produce phones for Windows?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: "what appears, at a glance, to be clear abuse of market power."

        Indeed, they wanted to Close the Open Handset Alliance to Acer. The "Open" in that title is clearly just marketing drivel.

        But why would Microsoft want to stop HTC selling Android phones? IIRC Microsoft make a pretty penny off every Android device sold by HTC, at least.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: "what appears, at a glance, to be clear abuse of market power."

          I wasn't saying MS would want to do that, just think about what would be said if they did do that.

          It often helps to imagine the same scenario with other companies involved as some companies are rather emotive and others get support despite what they do. The whole "don't be evil" thing does make lots of people think that Google are a nice, fluffy group of guys who aren't in any way a massive ruthless corporate multinational. MS are often thought of as a ruthless corporate multinational and tend to get talked down, no matter what they do.

      2. This post has been deleted by its author

      3. Pretendiname
        Thumb Up

        Re: "what appears, at a glance, to be clear abuse of market power."

        "Imagine if MS told HTC that they couldn't produce phones for Android, if they still wanted to produce phones for Windows?"

        Yes, they would only ever say exactly those words to Nokia...

        1. Ian McNee
          Flame

          Speaking of Nokia...

          ...don't Alibaba have their number? If WinPho tanks any further Nokia may not give a stuff what M$ say to them.

          But for the record, as an Android user and advocate this is yet another totally sucky thing done by Google. Not evil but monopolistic anti-competitive practice for sure.

      4. Lars Silver badge
        Coat

        Re: "what appears, at a glance, to be clear abuse of market power."

        "Imagine if MS told HTC that they couldn't produce phones for Android, if they still wanted to produce phones for Windows?"

        I sometimes have a feeling that that is what MS did with NOKIA.

      5. Gulfie
        FAIL

        Re: "what appears, at a glance, to be clear abuse of market power."

        It would seem that Google are saying that Acer can't stay in the OHA if they are also going to work with this company. That doesn't mean they can't make Android phones although it probably does mean they wouldn't be able to preload them with the key Google apps. Now introduce the fact that Acer is producing it for a company that is blatantly pirating Google apps and frankly I'm surprised that Acer are doing business with them. It would be a bit like building a media player for The Pirate Bay...

        Whether that is an abuse of market power or not really depends on the contracts between Acer, Google and the OHA. You can bet that with at least two sets of high-powered lawyers drawing up those contracts there would be little room to shoehorn in terms amounted to an abuse of market power. I repeat - Google couldn't stop Acer building Android hardware if it left the OHA, it just wouldn't be able to licence the Google apps and therefore preload them.

        Would Microsoft licence WP8 to a company that was producing nearly-WP8 handsets for a company that was distributing pirate copies of Microsoft WP8 apps? I don't think so.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: "what appears, at a glance, to be clear abuse of market power."

          Google just told Acer that it would not be allowed to build Android phones if it built a phone for a compatitor based on "the so called open Android" software. Google also declined to mention what "pirated" Apps were in the store.

          Microsoft and BMW along with others have proven that the Chinese govenmeant are willing to come down hard on IP theft, this isn't the cowboy days of the 80's and 90's. With so much manufactoring being done in China they realise that having strong IP protection is in their interest, just as the Japanese did before them.

          The simple fact is that Google used it's power to stop a competitor from being able to compete with it by threatening a suplier.

    3. David 164 Bronze badge

      Re: "what appears, at a glance, to be clear abuse of market power."

      Mostly correct, you just have to add that OHA members are not allow to support such OSes.

    4. a_been

      Re: "what appears, at a glance, to be clear abuse of market power."

      Alibaba wern't using Google Play or any of Googles own Apps or for that matter asking for Googles support. They agreed with Acer to design and manufacture a phone for them. Still on a positive note I guess we can now expect Google to insure that all official Android phones can run all the Apps from Google Play and that they will make sure there are no more pirated Apps, good for Android developers if it ever happens.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: "what appears, at a glance, to be clear abuse of market power."

        So how do you explain the Google Apps in their "store" along with copies of Angry Birds and other apps (which the developers never gave permission to be distributed).

        It sounds like Alibaba were on very dodgy ground.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: "what appears, at a glance, to be clear abuse of market power."

          "So how do you explain the Google Apps in their "store" along with copies of Angry Birds and other apps (which the developers never gave permission to be distributed)."

          The only Apps that Google make, need their services so they are happy, you try using Google mail without access to googles severs. Or are you saying that Google suddenly want to stop piracy in any store but their own?

    5. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: "what appears, at a glance, to be clear abuse of market power."

      Googles version of OPEN, you free to make any phone we agree you can make.

  2. LPF
    Facepalm

    Hmmmmmm....

    And yet Apple is a walled garden lol

    1. GitMeMyShootinIrons

      Re: Hmmmmmm....

      "And yet Apple is a walled garden lol"

      Indeed. However, it doesn't let OEMs use it's OS and then use blackmail when the OEM is so dependent on it and then does something that might compete (or reduce the dependency.

      Google really are starting to pick up where Microsoft left off - bullying hardware outfits into submission. Microsoft got it's bottom spanked by the courts - I wonder if Google will get that far?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Hmmmmmm....

        "Google really are starting to pick up where Microsoft left off - bullying hardware outfits into submission. Microsoft got it's bottom spanked by the courts - I wonder if Google will get that far?"

        I'm an Android dev and up until this whole mess had quite a high standing for Google. It had started to dither except that now we find out this Aliyun is distributing pirated Android applications (Google's included) on their store - this I think is a borderline good reason for this. We'll see if Google pressure Acer over WP8 phones.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          @ Sock puppet

          Shame Google don't care about the pirated apps they get paid to distribute in their own store.

      2. eulampios
        Linux

        MS vs Google

        Doesn't MS sell its OS to their partners and Google gives it for free? See the difference? Where's the analogy then?

        Another matter is that Aliyun is not open and might not comply with GPL, hence I don't give damn.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Hmmmmmm....

      Apple never bleeted on and on about how "open" they were.

  3. g e
    Meh

    Perhaps

    Alibaba were going to be saying something that implied it was Android when it was really only mostly Android and not running an official version which would be passing off as Android when it wasn't really?

    Who knows, there doesn't really seem to be enough information to say, not that it'll stop some demographics having a go ;o)

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Perhaps

      Or they didn't and there is more than enough information from Andy rubin himself but hypocrites have to justify being hypocrites.

    2. Gulfie

      Re: Perhaps

      Alibaba were going to distribute a phone that was 'almost' android and were stocking up their app store with pirated copies of Google apps. In other words they were going to surf off the back of Google, paying no licensing fees but creating an unholy mess and discrediting Android further in the process - by making it look totally crap and incompatible with itself.

      I would much rather Google cracked open the big guns and pointed them at Alibaba, they could have been much more circumspect about the whole Acer thing.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Perhaps

        Nice Lie, Googles apps dont work without access to Googles servers, when have Google cared about anyone elses IP. Why didn't they take action against Amazon which is doing the same thing? You now Amazon which is selling more tablets than all other Android tablets combined?

        They didn't take on Alibaba because they knew they couldn't make a case against them, Alibaba has a simple IP policy "if we are hosting pirated IP, tell us and we will remove it", thats the same policy Google has with Youtube and their App store. Thats why they went after Acer.

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Good Thing

    Android adoption is skyrocketing in Asia (just got back from Taiwan and Hongkong) and my subway who is using what metric shows 90% Android adoption, vs 10% iOS.

    In otherwords, there is no need for the "AlibabaOS", everything is just fine as it is.... It will only hurt consumers.....

    What Google did was in their own interest, for sure, but it was ALSO in consumers interests....

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Good Thing

      So choice is now bad?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Good Thing

        Choice is only good if Android is the only option it seems.

    2. Tom 38 Silver badge

      Re: Good Thing

      Why is it in consumers interest that the only OS available for phones in Asia is that delivered by an ad broker?

      People so ingrained to "Apple = EVIL, Google = GOOD" that when something comes up to contradict that, they have to pervert it so that it is a positive.

      Google shutting down competition is not good for consumers. You've argued long enough that Apple shutting down competition is not good for consumers, so why when Google do it is it "in consumers interests"?

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Good Thing

      So 90% market share is a good thing? it's always worked for Microsoft eh?

      Choice is good or would you rather that 90% of food on-sale was just McDonalds burgers?

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    "TechInAsia argues that Google should see Alibaba in court"

    "TechInAsia argues that Google should see Alibaba in court"

    Yes, because that's worked so well in the past, we all know the Chinese legal system's record on IP or copyright issues involving western companies.

    So really, Google's options were:

    1. Let Aliyun OS run, Acer (and others) release products based on it, let it get some kind of foothold in China, while they slog through the courts wasting money towards the inevitable loss.

    or

    2. Use their weight and influence to nip it in the bud, by leaning on someone heavily reliant on the Android ecosystem, done.

  6. Spoddyhalfwit

    Re Good Thing

    "What Google did was in their own interest, for sure, but it was ALSO in consumers interests...."

    Wouldn't it be better if consumer's made that choice, rather than Google (who I suspect might be a little biased?)

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Re Good Thing

      Why that's crazy talk! Next you will be expecting governments to go in favour of consumers instead of the various lobby groups.

      (Previous posts have compelled me to tag on a message stating that THE ABOVE IS SARCASM)

  7. Bob Terwilliger
    Pirate

    Yarr!

    Got to laugh at the owners of youtube complaining about piracy.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Yarr!

      At least on YouTube there's the DMCA/legal routes. Try resolving piracy in China.

      While you may snigger at "the owners of youtube complaining about piracy", it's not just Google's applications being pirated, but a whole range of Android applications - many of those developers have no hope of doing anything about it. Google's weight and the OHA threat are backing all of those developers too.

  8. Pretendiname
    Meh

    AlibabaOS

    and whilst I can see why Google might want to hold OHA members responsible for adhering to the conditions of that partnership... I can't fully grasp why you would act so aggressively. If anything, they should put pressure on Alibaba to contribute meaningfully to the ecosystem.

    A major part of the problem for Google is that most punters have no clue what various license agreements mean, and when something is "open" you reasonably expect people should be able to muck about with it. But sadly that isn't really the case for companies like Alibaba seeing $473 billion in sales last year, and basically taking other people's work and plagiarising it... oh wait. etc

    1. David 164 Bronze badge

      Re: AlibabaOS

      You can do anything you want with Android code, like the Russians and countless others have done, but OHA members are not allow to release hardware with that modified code on it.

      However even their, Google may have limited that hardware clause to only phones an tablets, several OHA members have release hardware in other categories with modified version of Android an have not been threaten with expulsion from the OHA.

      It seem to me that this is a case of aCER not reading the fine print of the membership forms they signed to join OHA. Google stamp on them so hard because they are a minor player and them going off sulking about it is of little threat to Google Android plans.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: AlibabaOS

        AlibabaOS was the threat to Google in China, Google has removed that threat and made it clear that they wont allow anyone to make an Android phone if they make an AlibabaOS phone. So much for "Choice" & "Open".

  9. Big_Ted
    Mushroom

    ..........."Google's response is to argue that while Aliyun isn't Android it does make use of Android frameworks and tools, and includes an Android runtime which has really upset the Googleplex:

    "Aliyun uses the Android runtime, framework and tools. And your app store contains Android apps (including pirated Google apps)," says the blog posting from Andy Rubin, concluding: "If you don't want to be compatible, then don't expect help from OHA members.".........."

    As I see it Google looked at this OS, said to themselves "They are using our IP without our OK to produce an OS and App store with apps that they don't have permition to use" That is blatant theft, Google then saying to Acer that if they are part of the theft of Googles IP then they can no longer use that IP seems to be to be far and resonable.

    If Alibaba want to have their own OS they should not be using Googles Android and donig a parcial rewrite but like others should take Android and add their own extras like HTC sence etc.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Keep drinking the Kool-Aid

      Alibaba didn't use any of Googles IP, all Google has is a claim of some pirated IP in the online store. Will Google shutdown youtube and remove all the pirated IP there, no chance. It's a crock of shit to stop a competitor but since it's Google, well everything is OK.

      1. Steven Raith
        Facepalm

        Re: Keep drinking the Kool-Aid

        "Alibaba didn't use any of Googles IP"

        So you're saying Rubin has just slandered Alibaba by directly accusing them of doing things you know for a fact are false?

        I'd love to see your evidence for that.

        You don't make such a bullish statement (Rubin, that is) when part of a large company without several lawyers seeing it first...

        Steven R

        1. Turtle_Fan

          Re: Keep drinking the Kool-Aid

          Actually, they're both right.

          Alibaba, clearly has nothing to do with Android and only modified their O/S so that it could run some (not all) android apps. There's no issue about copying or otherwise.

          Google, is right to use membership of OHA to threaten Acer. If you're a member then don't go about doing incompatible stuff.

          Simple solution 1: Go the Amazon way, fork it and build it NOT using an OHA member as your OEM. (Surely there must be others willing to do the job)

          Simple solution 2: Go the Samsung way, have Acer build your stuff but make your O/S distant and not overlapping with Android (a-la Bada)

          P.S. Morality, ethics and values play no role whatsoever when it comes to commercial decisions whether it's Google, Apple, Microsoft or Mr. Patel's cornershop.

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Open Souce?

    "the definition of open: "mkdir android ; cd android ; repo init -u git://android.git.kernel.org/platform/manifest.git ; repo sync ; make""

    Anyone can check out and build code, but it seems Google has the last say on if you can release your product. That's not very open source like is it?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Open Souce?

      Not at all, my friend!

      A lot of other companies are doing this, including some obscure one called Amazon and, what do you know, Google has nothing against that. Even Acer is free to do it, all they have to do is give Google a finger and sign off from OHA if they don't like the rules.

      See, a little bit of accurate information could take you very far down the rational thinking path. I know, going along the line "look how evil Google can be" is way much easier on your brain.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Open Souce?

        Google pretends to be open and give people freedom. They even show you how easy it can be to get their code and make it.

        But in reality it is their code and they tell people what they can and can't do with it.

        So Android is hardly the platform of freedom if the only people who can create Androids builds or use Android code without being controlled are underground hobbyists.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Open Souce?

      No, your OHA membership which states you will not build incompatible versions of the OS are what have last say of if, as an OHA member, you can release your product which breaches your OHA membership. Get it?

      Acer, an OHA member have created an in-compatible Android product. Yes, Google may be using this fact as leverage because of the pirate software, but that doesn't mean Acer aren't breaching their OHA membership agreement.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Open Souce?

        Who says they are creating an incompatible OS? it seems to be they've just reverse engineered the Android APIs.

        Google created Android by looking at Java APIs and so they know all too well the problems that can be caused. Why did they protest their innocence in the Oracle vs Google court case if they aren't then going to allow others to do similar things?

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          @AC15:50GMT - Re: Open Souce?

          Should we give you some reprieve while you're doing some research on Google vs. Oracle or should we proclaim you troll right away ? Just to give you some clues, in official court opinions vs personal beliefs, usually beliefs come a distant second.

  11. Wang N Staines
    Happy

    Simple

    Alibaba buys a shit load of Acer phones then flash their own ROM onto them!

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Simple

      Like in simple thinking ?

      Since you are so good at finding solutions, can you please tell us who is going to support those phones, Acer, Alibaba or the carriers ?

  12. Miek
    FAIL

    So much for Open Source

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      So, you've come to understand Open Source!

      Now your next step will be to understand Free and Open Source software but I warn you, this will be even harder.

    2. a_been

      Hmmm, Mr Amazon, a call on line one from China.

      Android was never open source, some of the tech was but as a whole it was never open. It was and is always Google, look at Amazon, they use none of Googles Apps, they can't as all are covered in IP honey (sweet and very sticky) and because they don't, Google can't touch them. What Google did will not make any difference to "Open Source" as that is safe.

      Google went after Acer as they sell in the west (NA, EURO,JAP) and the money they make is more than the Chinese market. The average (excluding Apple) smartphone sells for under $50 in China. In the West it is over $350 and thats being distorted by Apples market share. Acer can't compete in the low end smartphone market, hardly anyone apart from Nokie (at that level, whats a smartphone, whats a feature phone?) and Samsung can* which lead to Acer being easy to push around, also we must remember what happened when they went for market share in the PC buisiness

      Having said this, I not sure how this will be good for Google. Alibaba must now be thinking of looking at hooking up with a big firm that Google can't bully to release a phone for the China market.

      Hmmm, Mr Amazon, a call on line one from China.

      *Nokia could have competed in the lowend smartphone market with symbia and developed it to move up market if they hadn't had dick's running the company and been blinsided by the iPhone and their inability to undestand where their cash came from.

  13. alain williams Silver badge

    cyanogenmod

    Just install an open source version of android:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CyanogenMod

    1. Charles 9 Silver badge

      Re: cyanogenmod

      That would depend on the hardware being used in the devices. If they are not devices known to the community, then drivers probably don't exist for them, which means you can't build a CM for that hardware since drivers are not included normally in the open-source part of Android.

      Remember, Android the BASE OS is open source, but that doesn't mean anything else running ON TOP OF IT has to be as well. Think of it this way: Google Play isn't open source; neither's Angry Birds.

      1. a_been
        Facepalm

        Re: cyanogenmod

        Neither is Android Open Source.

        1. Charles 9 Silver badge

          Re: cyanogenmod

          Come again?

          http://source.android.com/

  14. Ilsa Loving
    WTF?

    The 'tard' in commentard

    How is it that so many people commenting on this article are so amazingly stupid?

    Acer agreed to be a part of the Open Handset Alliance. That is a group of companies that have all jointly agreed to work together to advance a common platform that would be guaranteed to work together, for the good of everyone. They also agreed that they would stick with this plan, and not spin out incompatible derivatives.

    Acer agreed to do this. Then they tried to break their agreement. How is this monopoly abuse?

    FURTHER, Aliyun was demonstrated to thoroughly pirate large quantites of software. Not just Googles, but various third parties. So not only was Acer was about to put out a phone that was in direct and clear violation of their agreements to the OHA, but it would be chock full of pirated software to boot. If that phone went out, they would have been crushed under the weight of the huge number of lawsuits dropped on them.

    I suspect google's entire envolvement in this was a quick call to Acer's brass, saying "Do you have any idea how stupid of a mistake you're about to make?"

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: The 'tard' in commentard

      You're arguing the point about an agreement of a group of manufacturers. The rest of us are pointing out the fact that Google's whole argument for their platform is the open-ness. This is a company who recently went to court to argue about Oracle APIs and how they should be allowed to copy them.

      Yet when people do the same to them it's suddenly a crime.

  15. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    @Ilsa Loving

    "FURTHER, Aliyun was demonstrated to thoroughly pirate large quantites of software. Not just Googles, but various third parties. "

    Are you fucking kidding me? Google, who makes hundreds of millions of dollars per year by aiding and abetting piracy, funding pirate website, and so on?

    I bet it wasn't easy to get your head so far up your ass. But you managed.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      @AC15:20GMT - Re: @Ilsa Loving

      I don't want to offend your rather strong sense of justice but law does not work like a clearing house. The same law protects the innocent and the criminal so if Google is claiming piracy, law has to intervene in the same way as it should do when Google is being accused of piracy. As far as I remember, you are not free to kill someone just because that person is being accused or convicted of committing a crime.

      1. a_been
        FAIL

        Re: @AC15:20GMT - @Ilsa Loving

        But Google isn't resorting to the Law which is the point I belive he was making.

  16. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Google rips off Java, but won't let anyone rip off Android. There's some karma in there somewhere.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Sorry to pierce your bubble but

      First, Google has never been found to rip off Java (bad news to you, it's official) and second, Amazon (and others) is happily cloning Android without any objection from the same Google. Like many other people here, you largely seem to ignore the fact that Google is not against cloning Android which is free, Google is strongly against cloning its app store which nobody ever said it's open.

      Now you give it another try!

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Sorry to pierce your bubble but

        Yet Alibaba has never been accused by Google of cloaning it's app store, did you miss the part where Google never went after alibaba!

        Now try to learn to be a good PR sockpuppet.

  17. EvilGav 1
    FAIL

    @AC at various times re YouTube

    You are aware that YouTube pays a not inconsiderable amount of money to the likes of the RIAA for copyright? That if you do use copyright material (music) on YouTube, if it's licensed they will auto-include a link to buy the song? That if they don't have a licence (for most Sony stuff), they blank the audio?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: @AC at various times re YouTube

      Oh really. How much or is that just more PR BS, since you claim knowlege prove it.

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