back to article It costs $450 in marketing to make someone buy a $49 Nokia Lumia

Every Windows phone Nokia sold in the US has been backed by a $450 slice of AT&T marketing cash, it's estimated. The mobile network threw its weight behind the handset maker's comeback device, the Lumia 900, with its biggest-ever advertising blitz for a phone: $150m, according to Ad Age. Nokia also spent $25m on Lumias for AT&T …

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  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    But will Windows Phone 8 owners be left out in the cold when Windows Phone 9 ships.

    That must be the niggling question for anyone stupid enough to actually want a Windows Phone.

    Actually forget that, anyone that buys a Windows Phone clearly doesn't think upfront at all, and simply sees the $49 pricetag ( ignoring the $500 network charges of course).

    Lumia isn't selling because of the upfront cost, so slashing it in half is pointless, they may as well keep it where it is. The problem is, Windows Phone 7.5 and 8 is VERY dated even in 2012, how you going to feel about it in 2014 when your contract finally expires???

    1. ItsNotMe
      Facepalm

      Re: But will Windows Phone 8 owners be left out in the cold when Windows Phone 9 ships.

      Considering the WinPhone 8 will not work on ANY WinPhone 7.x device...why would anyone purchase any one of them now?

      1. SilverWave
        Meh

        Re: But will Windows Phone 8 owners be left out in the cold when Windows Phone 9 ships.

        Stupidity.

    2. JDX Gold badge

      Re: But will Windows Phone 8 owners be left out in the cold when Windows Phone 9 ships.

      If people who bought W7 phones are stupid then nearly all Android users are stupid because most are still on 2.x and will be forever.

      This whole "it's useless if you don't get the next OS" argument is ludicrous.

      1. Danny 14 Silver badge

        Re: But will Windows Phone 8 owners be left out in the cold when Windows Phone 9 ships.

        thing is, android 2.x is perfectly fine. Cant think of any ics only apps off the top of my head. winpho 8 is a different kettle of fish. Most online services, links to win8 etc (i.e. the touted stuff) simply wont work out of the bag.

        Flagship android phones have ics upgrade paths, not so for a supposed flagship winpho. I wouldnt expect my £50 PAYG android to have an upgrade path. I'd be pretty pissed if my galaxy S3 didnt.

        1. Rdad
          Happy

          Re: But will Windows Phone 8 owners be left out in the cold when Windows Phone 9 ships.

          Flagship Android phones have ics upgrade paths. Really? The "Flagship" Nexus 1 ($529 at launch) launched in January 2010 with 2.1, and stalled at 2.3 in February 2011. By my count, that's 13 months of updates for a flagship Android phone.

          My middle of the road WP7 LG Optimus 7 was free on a £25 per month contract. For that I will get 21 months of updates (when 7.8 arrives) and will have 3 months of 7.8 before I get a new 8 phone.

          That's for an operating system that "just works"; that interacts immaculately with work's enterprise server; with native facebook and twitter support, with the apps I want and, most of all, with decent memory management and reliability.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: But will Windows Phone 8 owners be left out in the cold when Windows Phone 9 ships.

            "By my count, that's 13 months of updates for a flagship Android phone."

            by the manufacturer perhaps, but if you feel you want ICS or Jellybean then the development community can provide a range of software to meet your needs. but since gingerbread is actually quite good and all the apps from the market still run most people won't feel fussed.

            You can happily upgrade your LG all the way to 7.8, but it'll never be WP8 will it? and the apps will stop working, and development will cease.

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: But will Windows Phone 8 owners be left out in the cold when Windows Phone 9 ships.

            "That's for an operating system that "just works"; that interacts immaculately with work's enterprise server; with native facebook and twitter support, with the apps I want and, most of all, with decent memory management and reliability"

            ahh, thanks for that! hilarious.

      2. Dan 55 Silver badge
        Mushroom

        Re: But will Windows Phone 8 owners be left out in the cold when Windows Phone 9 ships.

        Not WP7 is now out of date, development efforts switch to WP8, and WP8 apps won't work on WP7.

        Ladies and gentlemen, we have the new burning platform.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: But will Windows Phone 8 owners be left out in the cold when Windows Phone 9 ships.

          @Dan55 what you said is only true if they delete all WP7 apps when they release WP8.

          If they stopped producing WP7 apps tomorrow, I'd be a little miffed, but as I basically have everything I want on a phone and way more besides, I don't really care.

          I'll probably get a WP8 when it's released.

          In other news, my Win3.1 machine wouldn't run W95 software, it didn't stop me continuing to use it for ages after W95 had been released.

          1. Chad H.

            Re: But will Windows Phone 8 owners be left out in the cold when Windows Phone 9 ships.

            Yes, but did you buy your 3.1 machine in 1994?

          2. ahayes

            Re: But will Windows Phone 8 owners be left out in the cold when Windows Phone 9 ships.

            Your win3.1 machine can be made to run w95. If you have a WP7 the only way to upgrade it is to throw it in the trash and buy a WP8.

            Android on the other hand has none of these problems even if you can't upgrade the OS because 2.3 will run any app that 4.1 will. It doesn't suffer from the forwards incompatible API that Windows CE seems to have.

      3. Homer 1
        Headmaster

        Re: "Most Android users on 2.x forever"

        I guess that copy of ICS running on my two year-old SGS must be an hallucination, then?

        This is Free Software, son, not Microsoft's or Apple's paranoid blobware.

      4. garyc2011
        FAIL

        Re: But will Windows Phone 8 owners be left out in the cold when Windows Phone 9 ships.

        Ahh this old chestnut again, when a WinFan can't win an argument, just bash the competition.

        There *IS* a distinction, the Lumia is the top of the range windows phone, its like going into a store today and buying a top of the range computer, and when you get it home, you find out it won't run windows 8 when it is released shortly.

        All top of the range Androids will get updates, along with alot of the cheaper ones. And the bigger problem is even the cheapest Android phone is more functional, heck the joke that is Skype on WP is pathetic for example.

        So you see your comparison is bollocks my friend.

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    !!! Anecdotal Alert !!!

    A friend of mine bought a Nokia Lumia 800 as soon as they came out where he lives. He's been a devoted Nokia user for years, having bought a N73 or whatever they were flogging back then. I remember he bought a Nokia smart phone, with a slide-out keyboard, and a resistive touchscreen panel. He then tried to play Flight Control on it (this is some years back). It wouldn't go. I mean, it would load and all that, but the screen was just so horrible, it was just completey useless as a game, because in about ten seconds you would decide never to play it again because you would need 10 seconds just to guide a single plane to a landing strip.

    Anyway, the Symbian software would crash several times a day (remember, anecdote. If your experience is at odds with his, well, that's another anecdote). However, despite the crap screen, he remained steadfast in his conviction that Nokia builds proper hardware. Fair enough.

    So despite Apple and Samsung building some rather nice phones, he decides he's going to stand out from the crowd and get himself a Nokia Lumia. Well, I rather approve of being an induhvidual. I think your description of the Stockholm syndrome is spot-on, though maybe it's time for a the more current Espoo Syndrome, which has the advantage of confusing people (Espoo Syndrome, what's that?).

    OK, WinPho 7 has a rather pleasing interface, and the screen is proper black where it needs to be black. But no multitasking, and an OS that has become extinct three months after he bought the phone, come on. Despite the fact that his phone will never run an update after the next one (and believe me, he was not pleased that I told him), and therefore the few apps that he has will be all that he has for the next two years, he remains a fan of Nokia.

    1. JDX Gold badge

      Re: !!! Anecdotal Alert !!!

      People are still writing apps for the iPhone 3GS and Android 2.x. So what's the big deal?

      Note also that not everyone buys a smartphone for apps; I didn't.

      1. Frank Bough

        Re: !!! Anecdotal Alert !!!

        What do you mean writing apps for the 3GS? Apps are written to run under the iOS, and the 3GS runs the latest version. It's still a solid phone, and still miles better than the Samsung Galaxy because of the superior UI and fantastic range of quality apps.

    2. Anonymous Coward 101

      Re: !!! Anecdotal Alert !!!

      "Despite the fact that his phone will never run an update after the next one"

      I own a Samsung Galaxy Note that was recently updated to version 4.0, and I will be amazed if it receives another official update after that.

      1. This post has been deleted by its author

    3. Ian Michael Gumby Silver badge
      Devil

      Re: !!! Anecdotal Alert !!!

      But its a phone.

      Do you really multi-task? Maybe a call while you take notes.

      Do you really need all those nifty $0.99 apps that are more toys and games to kill time?

      Or do you need a simple calendar, email, and web that all work seamlessly.

      IMHO, if you can make the phone a hotspot all those other gadgets can sit on your ipad or other device and just use your phone as a phone.

      Nokia does have power management and antennas down, unlike their competition.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: !!! Anecdotal Alert !!!

        "Nokia does have power management and antennas down, unlike their competition"

        Antenna maybe but it took them two firmware updates to get the battery life problems sorted on the Lumia 800.

      2. MacroRodent Silver badge
        Happy

        Re: !!! Anecdotal Alert !!!

        "Do you really multi-task? Maybe a call while you take notes."

        Yes, and vice versa: open the note-taking app while calling, or surfing the web. Works on my trusty Nokia N97 mini (with its long-obsolete Symbian version). I don't need to use multi-tasking every day, but when I need it, it is a life-saver.

        It is a total mystery to me why multitasking was left out of WP7. After all it runs on hardware that is much, much more powerful than the 486 or Pentium I PC's that were used to run the original versions of Linux, OS/2 or Windows95 back in the early nineties.

      3. goldcd
        Thumb Up

        Re: !!! Anecdotal Alert !!!

        I half-agree.

        Yes I really really do multitask (today whilst stuck in traffic, I was googling for an address, plonking that into my Google navigation, whilst taking a call (speakerphone), which seemlessly paused the audio-book I had playing). The ability to jump around between apps, whilst the OS nicely handles everything is why I like Android.

        What niggles me about Android however is the fact that it doesn't integrate in all my work stuff. Now a large chunk of this is my zealous IT dept buggering up anything simple in the name of security, forcing somewhat 'adventurous' practices upon us, but fact is that Android really isn't geared up to be corporate despite the odd tweak here and there over the versions.

        To my point. MS should just position their phones as corporate Blackberry replacements. RIM have just completely lost their minds and are diving into the abyss. They're gone and once the world realizes, middle-management will want new phones. MS phones don't just offer Outlook integration, they can offer you outlook integration from the company that brought you outlook. All that cloudy/office/sharepoint/metro guff they seem hellbent on pushing, if that was just extended to a locked down handset you could give to your employee - and they might actually enjoy owning? More importantly it would get more handsets out there, which is surely MS's biggest current issue (I did play with one, it was rather more lovely than I was expecting).

      4. N13L5
        FAIL

        Windphone users are like shooting fish in a barrel for AT&T, if they could just get them in...

        "Do you really multi-task? Maybe a call while you take notes."

        Multitasking became my #1 criterion, after being unable to use the skype app to receive calls on my iPhone 3, cause without multitasking, the Skype app couldn't run in the background to listen for incoming calls.

        Aside from that, there's lots of messaging apps that need to run in the back ground, if you want to get your tells from people.

        Sure, Windphone is fine if all you do is use the carrier's communication offerings. Thats why AT&T is plowing so much cash into advertising that shite... they would really like something other than Android, which gives people way too many possibilities to bypass their tollbooths.

        AT&T could give a crap what phone you use - up until the phone allows you freedom that cuts down on their income. So, if they could get Micro$oft to succeed, it would be great for them, cause Microsoft's platform is locked down tight. And with lack of popularity, you don't even have the chance of someone jailbreaking it, cause its not worth the effort. So, for AT&T, Windphone users are like shooting fish in a barrel...

        Few people are ready to get into that barrel, cause they already know how that goes...

  3. Paul Webb

    Oh how I wish the Lumia ran OS/2 Mobile!

    As per title.

  4. Tom 35 Silver badge

    Lumia sales were already sagging.

    How can they sag when they didn't have any to start with?

  5. That Steve Guy

    No room for 3rd ecosystem.

    How many times must it be said? The only hope for Nokia is to cut its losses and go to Android.

    Android running on Nokia hardware? I'd buy one. Windows phone? No thanks, I'd sooner have an iphone. (and I hate apple)

    1. auburnman
      Unhappy

      Re: No room for 3rd ecosystem.

      That ignores the fact that Nokia probably won't survive making another switch. They lost a load of goodwill and talent and took a pasting on the shares when they made the switch to MS, another U-Turn is probably not something they can pull off. Also I seem to recall el Reg reporting Nokia got a hefty bung from Microsoft ($1Bn?) when the switch announcement was made - that more than likely came with some nasty contractual obligations that tie them to Windows phones for a while. I seem to recall using the phrase "handcuffed to the deck of the Titanic" last time this was discussed.

      The only hope for Nokia might have been to cut its losses and go with Android, but I think that time is long since past.

      1. Conrad Longmore
        Unhappy

        Re: No room for 3rd ecosystem.

        Android? You can bet that there's a plan B that involves making an Android phone. Even if Elop doesn't know about it.

        Elop is actually a shrewd guy, he realised that Nokia didn't wanted to put itself in the middle of an ecosystem that would generate a lot more revenue than being just another Android maker. Windows was a high-risk but high-reward move, Android would have been low-risk, low-reward move. If Nokia wanted to regain the dominant position in the industry that it once had, then the higher risk approach was the only way to do it.

        However, I think what happened to Symbian was a mistake. Instead of killing it off, Elop should have stuck with the previous plan that moved Symbian downrange to where Series 40 is. Instead, Nokia tried to add features to Series 40 to make it more like Symbian. But as a result Symbian sales collapsed when they could have provided decent sales numbers if done properly.

        But now it's almost the perfect storm - Samsung are eating into the low-end market, the midrange market collapsed with Symbian, the higher-end Windows phones are looking like a dead end. I feel that Android is about the only choice if Elop wants to have any business left at all..

    2. Anonymous Coward
      FAIL

      Re: No room for 3rd ecosystem.

      I think many of us would have bought a Nokia had they gone Android, the whole world seems to understand than, except for two people, Stephen Elop and Steve Balmer.

      Someone want to wake them up????

      1. Paul Shirley

        Re: No room for 3rd ecosystem.

        No Barry, they understood if far too well. If Nokia had gone Android that would have been a devastating blow for every other OS (except IOS). WP would be dead within days *because* so many people would run full tilt towards Nokia-Android.

      2. David Hicks
        Devil

        Re: No room for 3rd ecosystem.

        Yup, I would have been in the queue for a nokia android - I mean, assuming they had still gone ahead and ditched maemo/meego.

        Nokia still says "quality handset" to some of us, and I believe they could have turned that into a reputation as a high-quality European android manufacturer. But nobody wants windows phone.

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Please don't insult OS/2

    by comparing it with Windows Phone.

    In fact you'd be surprised by the number of OS/2 systems that enable many everyday things... (often inside VMs since there's no drivers for modern hardware)

    Serious stuff too like banking and cash machines, air traffic control, supermarket tills, train control systems, power grids...

    1. Number6

      Re: Please don't insult OS/2

      I'm still running an OS/2 virtual machine, mainly because I haven't yet gotten around to re-writing a bit of software I wrote many years ago. At the time it was quicker to just set it up on a VM and because it works so well it's near the bottom of the priority list of jobs.

      As for Windows phones, I prefer to avoid them.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Please don't insult OS/2

      @AC I loved OS/2, but your information is out of date, it's not been used in these systems since after the "absolutely, we really aren't going to support it any more, not matter how much cash you bung us" date a few years back.

      1. Vic

        Re: Please don't insult OS/2

        > it's not been used in these systems since

        The Santander cash machine in Bitterne Precinct in Southampton runs OS/2 Warp. I doubt it is the only one.

        I watched it boot a few months back...

        Vic.

        1. jonathanb Silver badge

          Re: Please don't insult OS/2

          I'm sure there are still some museum artefacts out there, but most cash machines these days run XP Embedded.

          1. Dave 126 Silver badge

            Re: Please don't insult OS/2

            OS/2 sightings...

            2008, Puno, Pero, cash machine. I watched it reboot, hoping it would spit out my cash card... nope.

      2. Captain DaFt

        OS/2 yells, "I'm not dead!"

        It's just changed its name to eComStation. Just got the newsletter today about the upgrades to run it on modern hardware.

        (Seems eCom leased the rights to maintain and distribute it when IBM dropped support.)

  7. Antony Smith
    Mushroom

    Earnings...

    I'm expecting a blood bath

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    For $450...

    ... they could have thrown in a free iPhone.

    They'd have sold millions of Lumias that way.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Stop

      Re: For $450...

      But they would have had to pay to advertise that deal...

      1. Vic

        Re: For $450...

        > But they would have had to pay to advertise that deal...

        No, they wouldn't...

        Vic.

  9. tiggertaebo

    I nearly bought one

    The 900 looked good and I've been very impressed with the plays I've had with WP8. The only reason I didn't was because I decided to hang on a few weeks when the WP8 rumours started and then when the announcement was made and it essentially ticked all my boxes I binned the notion off. I tend to have a phone for a couple of years at a time at least so where's the sense in not waiting for WP8?

    1. N13L5
      Linux

      Re: I nearly bought one

      " where's the sense in not waiting for WP8?"...

      There's no sense in waiting for that, it'll be a Microsoft version 1 product...

      Historically, we know you have to give Microsoft till version 3 to get it right.

      So, you can safely buy an Android or Crapple phone that actually works now, and hang on to that, till WindPhone 10 gets released (assuming they release 8, 9, 10...)

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Windows phone == OS/2?

    Well, for a long time I've said that iOS/iPhone was the smartphone world's Windows 95 .... might not be the best technically but was "good enough" and all the software in the apps store made it a compelling choice.

  11. JDX Gold badge

    It costs $450 in marketing to make someone buy a $49 Nokia Lumia

    Oh come on. This is Daily Mail style reporting. It doesn't cost $450 to make a $49 sale... it costs $450 to sell someone a contract costing $50+ per month for two years. A non-contract 900 is selling for $400.

    1. This post has been deleted by a moderator

      1. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge

        Re: It costs $450 in marketing to make someone buy a $49 Nokia Lumia

        Eadon,

        That's not his point. The point is that the phone cost isn't the $99 now discounted to $49. That's just the upfront cost the network chooses to charge you. The actual cost is the difference between the total of contract prices and upfront prices for different phones. So the article gives us none of the info we'd need to know to tell if these figures are all that horrible or not.

        It's therefore fair to criticise the article (and headline) for being a bit crap.

        On the other hand, the figures are still dire. Supposedly the Lumia 900 was selling really well in the US, according to Nokia and the networks. If the sales figures of 350,000 quoted are true, then that's pretty bad news, and could be the end of Nokia. Has it got enough cash to survive long enough to sell WinPho 8? If it can even be sold...

        Obviously if you miss your sales targets by a mile on something you've heavily advertised, then the per unit advertising costs are going to look horrible.

        1. This post has been deleted by a moderator

          1. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge

            Re: It costs $450 in marketing to make someone buy a $49 Nokia Lumia

            As I understand the deal, Nokia are getting WinPho for free. Plus a stonking great marketing support payment from MS. So Nokia may be paying less than the Android manufacturers, who have to pay for the Google Apps, plus the Microsoft FAT royalties.

        2. bdam
          Happy

          Re: It costs $450 in marketing to make someone buy a $49 Nokia Lumia

          350,000 sales? That's the Android activations every day by what, lunchtime if we're being generous?

    2. Chad H.

      Re: It costs $450 in marketing to make someone buy a $49 Nokia Lumia

      But if they werent buying the lumia, they'd buy another phone in the range.

  12. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    contract cost?

    Clearly the Lumia has performed really badly on the basis of these figures. A Nokia disaster zone,

    Sloppy analysis or reporting though as the phones like all contract phones iPhone to Android to WP don't sell at $99 etc. they are part of a $1000 or so contract and any discussion of profitability should take this into account.

  13. This post has been deleted by a moderator

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: extraordinary!

      No.

      Next question...

    2. Paul Shirley
      WTF?

      Re: extraordinary!

      I believe you're thinking of Win8 and it's primary role as an WP8 advert on every new PC.

  14. jnffarrell1

    Microsoft moves ops to Donner Pass

    Microsoft moving its operations to Donner CA by late fall 2012, where it plans to eat its fellow travelers (Nokia, Intel) in order to survive.

    1. Gannon (J.) Dick

      Re: Microsoft moves ops to Donner Pass

      Love it ... Donner Pass, the new Silicon Valley

  15. Richard Bijster
    FAIL

    How to lose the trust of your current customers

    I have an HTC Radar, I only bought it a few months ago. I am furious about it not being able to be upgraded to Windows Phone 8 when it comes out. What that means for Microsoft is this: I will not buy another Windows Phone or recommend others to buy one as I feel totally ripped off.

    I can only assume that there are many other Windows Phone users who feel the same as I do. Windows Phone 8 means MS starting all over again in the mobile market. The minuscule market share they have built up with Windows Phone 7.5 will evaporate before their eyes. Windows Phone, as far as I am concerned, deserves to completely fail in the marketplace because of this no upgrade possibility on all current handsets to Windows 8. If this was made clear to me before buying, I would never have switched to a Windows Phone.

    Fool me once Microsoft and you've now lost me as a customer forever.

    1. Adrian 4 Silver badge
      Pirate

      Re: How to lose the trust of your current customers

      I read this comment so often .. from buyers of every phone there is.

      Android buyers don't get updates from their networks, Microsoft doesn't support last month's OS, Apple updates the hardware just after you bought a phone.

      Get used to it.

      1. El Bertle

        Re: How to lose the trust of your current customers

        But none the less this is a real effect and it persists in people for an irrationally long time. I considered myself to have been 'done over' by Sony twice with one of their laptops: once when I needed a replacement AC charger and discovered it was just-slightly-proprietary-enough that I couldn't get a generic one and had to spend some ludicrous money on a Sony one; and then again when they wouldn't release a video driver (which had already been written for them by the graphics chip maker) to allow an OS upgrade, because they wanted you to buy a whole new PC.

        This was about ten years ago. Number of Sony products I've bought since then ? None. Number of Sony products remaining in my house now ? None.

      2. Richard Bijster

        Re: How to lose the trust of your current customers

        Before an iPhone 3G. I was able to upgrade its OS for about 2 years after getting it. With the Windows Phone that's not the case. All fair and well MS bringing out an updated OS, however, it should not mean EVERY single handset that they have their current 7.5 OS on becomes non-upgradeable within a few months of buying it. So it's F-off Microsoft when I renew my contract with T-Mobile here in Holland. It's certainly not way to build any sort of trust with current customers. They have already lost one potential upgrader to Windows Phone 8 and I suspect that I'm by no means alone.

      3. Raz

        Re: How to lose the trust of your current customers @Adrian 4

        It's not exactly the same thing with Android. Yes, most older and cheaper phones will not see ICS from either the phone manufacturer or the network, but if sold in enough numbers may be of interest to third party developers, see xda-developers.com and ICS on HTC Desire Z, a really old phone by now. If the user is not technical enough to root and upgrade themselves, many people can do it for them for a few bucks.

        Compare this to upgrading WP7 to WP8. It will never be possible, for love or money.

      4. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: How to lose the trust of your current customers

        The difference is, all Android 2.1+ devices can use all Android apps (I can't think of many at all that won't work).

        However, Windows Phone 7.x users are in limbo, no Windows Phone 8 apps for them. They won't work.

        Google have done a superb job of maintaining Android application compatibility, including the compatibility libraries for developers.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Thumb Down

      Re: How to lose the trust of your current customers

      You're getting many of the features by upgrading to 7.8+, just not an 8.x version number.

      The OS has changed too much for the current hardware, that's the harsh progress in the tech world, many Android phones will never get official updates past 2.3.x or will run like a dog if they do (HTC Sensation I'd rather had stayed on 2.3.x, the ICS update is like treacle at times, despite a factory reset and clean up).

      Do you get free upgrades on old PCs? No. You should buy something on it's merits NOW, the tech moves too fast and is too unpredictable (especially phones). All this "I demand free OS upgrades to new major versions on my phones" just sounds like a whiney "I demand something for nothing even though it was never promised to me, because I should, because I shouldn't have to pay because I'M SPECIAL!" - it wasn't promised at sale therefore you have no right to it and shouldn't have expected it.

      Go on, downvote me...

      1. Johnny Tremaine

        Re: How to lose the trust of your current customers

        Well sure, buyers of Nokia's Lumia shouldn't have *demanded* updates on their smartphones. They did expect them though, but maybe they shouldn't have, according you?

        Maybe. It's similar to how Microsoft shouldn't *expect* any return customers for their Windows Phone 8 devices either.

        That's only fair I'd say.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: How to lose the trust of your current customers

        iamafish,

        "The OS has changed too much for the current hardware, that's the harsh progress in the tech world"

        Not true at all. The phones they are selling today cannot be upgraded at all. The phones they sell the day before the WP8 release, cannot be upgraded. Microsoft set the requirements in WP7 as so restrictive that only products that many passed over several years ago will run it. How many PC companies sell a system that cannot run the next release that will be out in a few months? Sure you had the Intel asking Microsoft to drop the specs, but at least the OS would install, you just didn't get the full set of features. What we are talking about is that there is no chance of WP8 on a WP7 handset. I have seen laptops that are 7 years old running Windows 7 but yet a phone that isn't a year old cannot run WP8. Why did Microsoft not change the specs on WP7 hardware to support WP8? The answer is, the OS is set to use certain hardware only and they couldn't. They require a Qualcomm CPU and they put everything on one die and they use non-standard registers that other ARM chips don't support. So they couldn't change the hardware on WP7. WP7 was also never designed to support multiple cores.

      3. Richard Plinston Silver badge

        Re: How to lose the trust of your current customers

        > You're getting many of the features by upgrading to 7.8+, just not an 8.x version number.

        No. The only feature announced is that 7.8 will have some of the UI changes such as variable sized icons (or whatever they are called) and some colour changes. It is still WP7 with all the limitations.

        > The OS has changed too much for the current hardware,

        WP8 is a completely different OS, it is based on a modularised version of NT converted to ARM rather than on CE (which split off a couple of decades ago).

        The main reason that the current WP7 hardware won't support WP8 is that MS dictated that WP7 was restricted to certain hardware, such as single-core, 800x480, and only specific SoCs. This meant that it fell far behind what was available. Now dual-core is required as they try to catch up the last three years.

        > that's the harsh progress in the tech world

        MS let WP7 fall behind the progress, their spec was fixed 3 to 4 years ago (it was supposed to be released in 2009) and was not updated. This limited what could be produced as a phone. It is not 'progress's' fault, it is MicroSoft's for not making progress.

        > You should buy something on it's merits NOW

        Most probably did, which is why WP7 failed to gain market share. When WP8 arrives then it will be a complete restart (just like WM6.5 was killed by WP7), though it will apparently run WP7 apps. But it will be the first version of the new OS and it probably needs to get to SP2 before investing in it.

        In aviation they say: "Never put a new engine in a new aircraft design".

    3. JDX Gold badge

      I am furious about it not being able to be upgraded to Windows Phone 8

      Why? How do you know you'd even want W8 on your phone?

  16. James 47

    No room for 3rd ecosystem

    My understanding of the move to Windows was that the operators were pissed off at the Apple / Android duopoloy and desperately wanted a new player. They want(ed) a 3rd ecosystem that they could get a slice of. MS probably f**ked that up with their Skype move.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: No room for 3rd ecosystem

      Yes, but are operators going to put their money where their mouth is? And they only want a 3rd ecosystem if they're getting something out of it. 1/3rd x 0 is not much.

    2. Jess

      Re: No room for 3rd ecosystem

      But there was a third ecosystem (and a fourth for that matter).

      Nokia still had a very significant slice of the market with Symbian. (N8s are everywhere.)

      Killing Symbian made as much sense as Sega killing the Saturn when it was still bigger than some of the competition. Will customers trust that the replacement product won't get poleaxed in a similar manner?

      As has proved to be the case.

  17. Adrian 4 Silver badge
    Trollface

    "Ominously, the enormous promotional expenditure for Nokia’s Windows Phone was accompanied by generally warm reviews. Astroturfers emphasised the unusual design of Windows Phone’s Metro UI, rather than the functionality that is missing. "

    Fixed for you.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Too fecking true - under powered piece of junk.

      it was all a con job - helped by their serfs in the press.

  18. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge
    WTF?

    "93 per cent of Lumia 900 owners say they would recommend them to their friends and 85 per cent would make a repeat purchase"

    Here's hoping I'm not friends with one of the 8% here, who'd recommend a product to a friend that they don't intend to purchase themselves...

    Actually I would recommend WinPho 7 to my Mum. It's easy to use, and runs very well on a £100 phone (Lumia 710), so it'd be my suggestion if she wanted a smartphone. For anyone that wants decent apps, it's rubbish.

    1. Rdad
      Happy

      Isn't that kind of the point though? 99% of the world's population aren't us. They're not early adopters or technophiles. They're people's mums, or dads, or aunties etc etc.

      They don't want to root their phone. They don't want to install extra apps (beyond, maybe, Skype, facebook and twitter and the odd game or two). They especially don't want to clear application caches, or move programs to memory cards. They just want stuff to work. At the same time you don't want to spend Sunday afternoon on the phone to your mum explaining how to get the video of your kids off the phone and onto their computer.

      That's what WP (and, to be fair, iOS) gives you. It's a phone that works as you want it to right out of the box. It's a smartphone that doesn't say "you need to be smart to use me".

      If I can use an analogy; when I was young, I enjoyed tinkering with my car. I liked changing bits of it when they went wrong, or adding bits to make it more mine. These days, I just want to get in, turn the key and go somewhere. The car market has matured, and so have I. It's not a toy any more, it's a tool.

      The phone market will undoubtedly go this way as well. WP isn't customisable, and doesn't have the option to fit an aftermarket metaphorical spoiler, or alloys. From that point of view, WP's problem may not be that it's old-fashioned, it may be that it's too far ahead of the curve.

      Oh, and I'd recommend WP7 to someone, even though I wouldn't buy one, so I'm one of your 8%. I'll be waiting for WP8...

      1. David Hicks
        FAIL

        Re: Rdad - all of those points also apply to android

        There's nothing unique to windows phone in any of the points you made about things working out of the box.

        And this is just priceless - "it may be that it's too far ahead of the curve"

        Seriously? I know you seem to view the lack of ability to customise as a bonus, but even non-tech people like to be able to do things like add a new ringtone, which every other phone has been able to do for a decade. Not so WP7 until 7.5. And with 7.5 you have to figure out how to edit your MP3 into a 40-second or less sub-1MB specialised rington file.

        This is not a user-friendly tool, it's a clusterf*ck.

      2. Jess

        @rdad

        The problem is, you have just described a feature phone.

  19. Mike Brown

    the big question tho.......

    is which will fail 1st? RIM or Nokia?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: the big question tho.......

      At least WP8 has some merit as part of the '8' ecosystem whereas BB10 seems doomed even to the most unbiased observer.

      So on basis of products my money is on RIM as first to fail.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: the big question tho.......

        Difference is, RIM still has something of a core enterprise market that splash out big bucks, not on phones per se, but on "solutions". A bit like IBM sell solutions rather than computers.

        So long as RIM make the work phones for a crapload of medium and large enterprises out there, they ain't going anywhere. They may however, disappear from the hands of chavs in favour of cheapo Androids with instant messenger clients.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        RIM doomed?

        Reversing your post, at least RIM has an installed base, long experience of multitasking OSes on ARM, and a decent software platform. Whereas WP8 appears to be a product with no obvious market niche. WP8 won't be allowed to fail, but it will have a bad effect on the MS bottom line.

        1. fung0

          Re: RIM doomed?

          Without checking the stats, I suspect that the BlackBerry OS is being used on way more PlayBooks than there are WinPhones in the world. What's more, BlackBerry OS is a genuine pleasure to use, far more intuitive and far less bizarre than WinPhone. I've used all the mobile OSes, and if I had to pick just one for usability and elegance, it would be PlayBook, hands-down. Since the 2.0 update, the selection of apps is good too... not as many as on iOS or Android, of course, but way more than I need.

          That said, it's pretty clear that RIM really has just one more kick at the can. I'm told that existing PlayBooks will be upgradeable to the new OS 10 coming early next year, so that puts RIM one up on Microsoft, anyway...

    2. Philip Lewis

      Re: the big question tho.......

      http://www.nasdaq.com/symbol/nok

      US$1.75 and still in free fall.

      They announce earnings on Thursday, expect a bloodbath, maybe $1B loss for the quarter. The money will dry up by the end of Q12013 and then it's game over.

  20. Mage Silver badge
    Coat

    Only hope

    Is to make toilet paper, wellie boots and phone mast gear.

    They are dead on phones.

  21. Dominic Connor, Quant Headhunter

    Actually it isn't an OS/2

    As a former member of the OS/2 development team I would like to point out that tens of million of copies of OS/2 were sold, which does not make it a real comparison to Windows Phone.

    A better example might be the takeup of training courses by management at G4S, particularly the one about "Personal Integrity" and "Having a clue".

  22. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    "Nokia is entitled to point to excellent customer satisfaction ratings from Lumia owners. 93 per cent of Lumia 900 owners say they would recommend them to their friends and 85 per cent would make a repeat purchase, according to Nielsen"

    Is Nokia also entitled to point to the research showing that on a scale of 1~5 the likelyhood of recommending the Nokia Lumia 900 was "1" (not likely at all) by 42% of the survey.

    Something fishy in the stats?

    1. fch

      Re: Only hope

      You mean like use the toilet paper to mop up a little mess, the wellies to remain clean if the mess is a bit deeper, and the gear to climb up phone mast once the mess level rise significantly ?

      By those standards, right now, Nokia is probably three quarters up the phone mast. Toilet paper and wellies surely have outlasted their usefulness for Nokia. Seems a bit like Nokia's leadership have dreamt about building Icarus wings for too long ... and while the mess levels are still rising, the parching Sun is melting those winglets Nokia hoped to take off with.

  23. Martin Dunn

    My ideal phone..

    would be an Android device with Nokia build quality. In my 'man-drawer' of defunct mobiles from the past years,it's the Nokia ones that all still work.

    1. P. Lee

      Re: My ideal phone..

      I'm curious - is it the dumb phones that last the longest?

      My guess is that simpler devices last longer. I had a 6310i for a very long time!

  24. Paul Shirley
    Thumb Down

    It costs $200 in marketing to make someone buy a $39 Win8 install

    Let's hope this knocks a few months off the time it takes MS to give up on Win8 as a WP8 promo platform, to start handing back control to the users. Sadly they'll wait till the inevitable highly successful launch (they are nearly giving Win8 away to guarantee it) to face reality, when bazillions of Win8 sales turn into zero WP8 sales.

    Still, we'll have a nice 'MS have to pay customers $200 to buy Win8 story' soon enough ;)

  25. mbt2

    It's still alive

    This has been some really bad management on Microsoft part as WP7 is still far from obsolete. Apps will still be developed for it for the foreseeable future as WP8 will run WP7 apps. So if devs target WP7 they get the whole market and as WP8 will start with no market share there is no point developing for that unless you really have to until it starts selling. For indie game devs XNA is unchanged between WP7 and WP8 so WP7 will continue to get some games.

    The biggest mistake Microsoft made was having Windows in the phone name. It's just not a brand people like, they don't choose it, it comes on their PC's, they have to use it at work and if you are not technically literate it is easy for it to go wrong. Windows phone is nothing like Windows, but it is nice to use and has a smooth interface.

    1. fung0
      Mushroom

      Re: It's still alive

      mbt2 said: "The biggest mistake Microsoft made was having Windows in the phone name."

      I couldn't agree more. And Microsoft is doubling-down on the foolishness with Windows 8 and the Surface. "Windows 8 RT" is not Windows in any way. It doesn't run existing apps, doesn't support existing peripherals, and doesn't even do small-w windows.

      This use of the Windows brand like some kind of magical sales-generating wand is not only deceitful, it's bad strategy. Ballmer and Sinofky are building the 'New Coke' of OSes here. And I, for one, look forward to the conflagration that will surely result.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: It's still alive

      Except that Microsoft is going to recompile all of the WP7 apps so that they can run on WP8. Also, if big changes are not occuring, then why the need for a WP8 SDK?

  26. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    the problem is that everybody wants to not have a windows phone

    thats all

  27. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Real Stockholm syndrome

    Real Stockholm syndrome sufferers have Palm Pres and believe webOS has a future. As one such masochist, I am sufficiently in denial that I still prefer my Pre 3 over anything Lumia. Actually, isn't that part of Nokia's problem? A dated phone design with a really good UI is still nicer than gee-whiz hardware with a kind of sub-desktop UI.

  28. gorra

    Oh fudge

    150 million divided by 330,000 = $454

    It sounds bad but we don't know if the whole budget has been spent. ATT is promoting itself as well as the Lumia. ATT would see this as a lost opportunity only if total subscriptions are disappointing.

    To make any meaningful analysis we still need to know the length of the promotion and the growth/decline of the mobile customer base

    1. fung0

      Re: Oh fudge

      gorra said: "It sounds bad but we don't know if the whole budget has been spent."

      Your point is a good one: things may not be as bad as they seem. On the other hand, I don't think there's any way to make these numbers look like an actual success...

  29. Mikel
    Meh

    "We tried"

    Now AT&T can finally point to this result and say "See? We tried." Redmond had been accusing them of being uncommitted to this whole "Windows Phone" thing. A shame that it's driving up the cost of Androids and iPhones though, to sell this brick nobody wants.

  30. largefile

    Love My WP7.

    I've had an HTC Trophy WP7 for about 15 months now and it's received three updates. I runs flawlessly and has not locked up on me ONCE in 15 months. It just keeps working like a clock. Apps galore....certainly more than I'll every be able to fully evaluate. When anyone asks me about the phone I give a demo of the capabilities of the people hub. Once they see the incredible power and ease of the people hub for everything from social connections to keeping track of business communications, nor further pitch is needed. It's simply the most simple to use and naturally powerful OS in the phone world today. I'll be upgrading to a new WP8 phone shorty after release.

    1. SilverWave
      Happy

      I'm so pleased for you :-)

      Its just a phone LOL.

  31. saundby

    All this limited ecosystem talk

    has me worried about the viability of CP/M for smartphones.

    PIP A: B:ANGRYBIR.COM

  32. ThomasW

    Slashing prices in desperation

    Nokia's recent price cut on their flagship phones, betrays utter desperation. They're burning over a billion dollars a quarter, while still trying to establish a range.. which is about to be rendered obsolete, by the upcoming Windows Phone 8.

    The need for Nokia to successfully build, market -- and most of all sell -- a new series of flagship phones, coming off the effective failure of the current generation, places Nokia's recovery strategy & entire business model at risk.

    Is this the beginning of the end? Can such a company still survive?

  33. Anonymous Coward
    Coat

    LOL

    Saw a bloke on the train with a Lumia 900 yesterday, I think he saw me laughing at him, as he quickly hid it.

    1. SilverWave
      Happy

      Its so helpful for all the hard of thinking to highlight themselves in this way :-)

      Obviously someone to keep a careful eye on if you on the same train as them. As long as they are busy licking the window then not a problem. I would get a little nervous if they start fiddling with the carriage door though.

  34. sys3175
    Stop

    The OS/2 of the smartphone world is already there...

    ...by the name of WebOS. In many regards, it's like OS/2: technologically ahead of all the competitors, but badly supported by the owner, and finally left out in the cold.

    The best user interface of all smartphones I saw (here, WebOS actually is far more advanced than OS/2, whose mighty Workplace Shell never got the polish it would have deserved), consistent and useable multitasking, root access without tricks, but also the lack of commercial apps and some not-so-nice bugs, which can only partly be remedied by homebrewn apps of a devoted, but diminishing community.

    The parallels are obvious. The difference is that WebOS is being open-sourced and by this, a limited possibilty exists that it might get a second life.

  35. Magnus_Pym

    Why do user buy phones?

    The iPhone sold because people thought it was 'cool' but because it was 'cool'. It did things that people saw other owners doing and wanted to be able to do themselves. That doesn't make it good, only cool. Not the same thing at all.

    Windows phones are not cool.

  36. RyokuMas Silver badge
    Stop

    Well, I'm sticking with it for the time...

    XNA has made game development a joy for the WP7, and while it's annoying that it is no longer being actively developed for WP8, WP7 games developed in XNA will also work on WP8, so it's worth continuing for the time being - especially since (as has been pointed out) those who bought on contract will ensure there is a market for the immediate future.

    However! With WP8, the game will change. Maybe Microsoft will pull off what many believe to be impossible and make the third ecosystem viable - probably by chucking money at it until it works (a la Xbox), and if that's the case, I'll probably look at jumping to C++/DX11 to step up to WP8. That's assuming that the entry barrier stays as low as it has for WP7.

    If not... well, I guess I'll have to try and scrape together a couple of grand and start writing for the iPhone. Better that than beating my head against the ever increasing fragmentation that is Android: developer's - worst - nightmare.

    Watch the fandroids swarm in with the downvotes, like good little borgs...

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      LOL - Good Luck with that :-D

      The memo that cost 13billion in sales for Nokia @tomiahonen http://bit.ly/OArMOD

      Defeat from jaws of victory - how Nokia's CEO Elop burnt an iconic brand http://bit.ly/OArMOD

  37. SilverWave
    Trollface

    OMG I rated a Orlowski post highly - I feel so dirty.

    I will be more careful in future.

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