back to article OAP sues Apple for $1m after walking into store's glass door

An octogenarian is to take Apple to court after a visit to one of the computer company's glass-fronted stores put her nose out of joint - literally. The 83-year-old New Yorker walked slap bang into one of stores' see-through doors and broke her nose, she claims. Now, Evelyn Paswall, 83, has asked for $75,000 (£47,000) in …


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  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    how fast did this granny walk?

    Assuming this granny is probably just your typical greedy american, I hope she spends a fortune on legal fees before losing and gets some humble pie:)

    1. Dave 126 Silver badge

      Re: how fast did this granny walk?

      Is only part of the question.

      "How much momentum did she have?"

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: how fast did this granny walk?

        slow * fat

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      is this

      The woman who gave birth to superman.

    3. Tom 35 Silver badge

      Re: how fast did this granny walk?

      No I expect it will be a "you only pay if you win" deal so she will only get peanuts even if she wins.

    4. Gene Cash Silver badge
      Thumb Up

      Being an American...

      Can I please vote up the parent comment about 1000x? I'm tired of the entitlement attitude in this country. I hope she gets beaten in court like a red-headed stepchild.

      1. ukgnome Silver badge

        Re: Being an American...

        red headed step child.

        Presumably you are a 'tard - as that's a little bit offensive

      2. Tapeador

        Re: Being an American...

        "I'm tired of the entitlement attitude in this country. I hope she gets beaten in court like a red-headed stepchild."

        Surely it's likely this woman had to pay for her nose being fixed, via her savings? Health insurance is very expensive and hard to come by if you're in your 80s, surely? And surely the most egregious sense of entitlement in the US is that displayed by a healthcare industry which charges insane fees for any work whatever?

        I realise, part of those fees, represent the need to recoup the costs of paying out for lawsuits against practitioners - but surely the greater part is those practitioners' excessive profit? In any event, surely we should apply the same principle to this woman: in attempting to recoup her medical fees she is simply seeking from Apple precisely that which their negligence directly cost her. Begrudge her that - as you seem to do - and I say you're a goddamn heel.

        1. Chad H.

          Re: Being an American...

          Exactly how was Apple negligent to the tune of a million dollars? Its a fragging door - you need to open them.

          I don't believe the woman had any serious injury. Ambulance chaser got his corrupt buddies to make some crap up after watching a certain episode of the Simpsons too many times.

    5. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: how fast did this granny walk?

      Remember, people used to die walking into glass doors, which is why it became a requirement to make obvious that it was a door and not clear air.

  2. Arrrggghh-otron

    An awareness of what glass is...

    You would think that at the age of 83, one would have a sufficient grasp of the way the world works and have a solid body of experience to draw upon that would ready her for the magic that is the glass door...

    1. Dave 126 Silver badge

      Re: An awareness of what glass is...

      I walked into a glass partition at the age of 30. Sometimes I bang my head on the extraction-hood above my hob - it sits above my field of view. Sometimes I bash my head on a low door way in the pub, but only if I'm distracted at the time.

      1. AndyS

        Re: An awareness of what glass is...

        I hope you get $1,000,000 each time? After all, that's a perfectly reasonable amount of money for something that's certainly not _your_ fault.

        1. JetSetJim Silver badge

          Re: An awareness of what glass is...

          Perhaps that's why Bieber is so rich:

 - Kerching -> $1M

 - Kerching -> another $1M

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: An awareness of what glass is...

            She's 83 FFS cut her some slack jack.

            Maybe her eyesight isn't up to Apple's 'Retina' standard.

            Perhaps Apple might just consider designing an environment for normal everday folk of all ages, not just trendy young Barrista's in black polo necks with more money than sense.

            1. Arrrggghh-otron

              Re: An awareness of what glass is...

              I don't know why you got down voted - it made me chuckle!

            2. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge

              Re: An awareness of what glass is...

              I am sure a glass door can be present a random difficulty in a day's series of events.

              “The defendant was negligent... in allowing a clear, see-through glass wall and/or door to exist without proper warning,"

              I hope Apple Designers have thought of all the proper warnings for functionality that is sure to exist in things Apple sells and that can expose your privates.

      2. Keep Refrigerated

        Re: An awareness of what glass is...

        Similar thing happened to me in Zurich at a popular brand trendy coffee place - I was 22! They had a normal door that had existed for some time which I was accustomed to using, and had decided to install automatic opening glass doors.

        I was walking ahead talking to friends with my head turned to the side at just the wrong moment, reached out to grab the existing inner door, and turned my head towards it - bang - slammed right in to the glass panel - shattered my front tooth. Stepped back in shock and the motion detector kicked in and the panel slid open.

        Head of *bucks called me the next day, details passed onto insurance company and tooth replaced that week. No lawsuit needed, but I can sympathize with an 83 year old. I don't know how much a broken nose costs to fix - remember there's no such thing as a NHS in the US, so it's bound to be more expensive.

        1. Stu

          Re: An awareness of what glass is...

          >bound to be more expensive.

          No, not a million dollars expensive!

          Just more litigation culture, I do wonder whether there is absolutely ANY level of purposefulness gone into this, what with the money Apple is making every second of every day, plus a glass frontage identified by some to be of litigious potential.

          And quite how would an old granny manage to shatter a glass frontage so effectively, made probably of toughened glass - assuming the pic is real.

          I wonder whether a trip to the security room to watch some footage of the event might be in order - Maybe, just maybe, a 2x4 was used just prior to the 'event' and the granny's nose was already broken? Magicians tricks a possibility.

          Just a thought.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: "walking ahead talking to friends with my head turned to the side"

          That's pretty much the dictionary definition of not looking where you're going and not paying attention to what you're doing. Combined with your implicit assumption that the world is static and fixed and nothing anywhere ever changes (and just how did you get into the place without noticing the new door layout in the first place anyway?), I make it 100% your fault. Very generous of them to pay for your dental surgery.

          1. Keep Refrigerated

            Re: "walking ahead talking to friends with my head turned to the side"

            FYI the door layout didn't change, they just stuck a large glass sliding panel directly in front of it, which took them less than a day (marvelously efficient, the Swiss), but perhaps my original post did not make this clear enough.

            But thanks for explaining to me the world is not static and that things are constantly moving and changing... how have I survived all these years travelling from country to country without noticing that I don't know. By sheer luck or grace?

            OTOH You must be a real fun person to hang out with on long walks - do you ask everyone not to talk until you reach the destination so that you can focus on making sure no new obstacles have crossed your path since the last time you took that route?

            Also worthwhile mentioning, the motion detector signal was very badly timed, in that you had to wait a second for it to open, which was not fixed even after my accident (yes, I still went there for coffee).

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: "walking ahead talking to friends with my head turned to the side"

              >"do you ask everyone not to talk until you reach the destination so that you can focus on making sure no new obstacles have crossed your path since the last time you took that route?"

              Not being Gerald Ford, I can talk and look where I'm going at the same time. Since I don't talk or listen with my eyes, I'm able to point them in the direction I'm going, rather than the direction I'm talking or listening to. You on the other hand were walking one way and looking another. If you'd been out in the street you'd have walked smack into a lamp-post and still be blaming it rather than yourself.

    2. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

      Should have gone to Specsavers

      Time for some new iGlasses ?

  3. Blofeld's Cat

    Gran'd Slam...

    From Steve Jobs to nose jobs, is but a small step for the unwary.

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward


    ...was the glass shiny or matte?

    1. ElNumbre

      Re: Yebbut...

      I was wondering if it was a capacitive or resistive interface?

      1. Ty Cobb

        Re: Yebbut...

        Capacitive obviously, otherwise it would have resisted the application of her face to it

  5. Kubla Cant Silver badge

    Seems Apple and windows aren't compatible

    ... somebody had to say it

  6. Bush_rat

    Accident my Arse!

    Agreeing with the first comment this nan would've had to be running towards the apple store at full speed, double that of a nan her age, whilst not looking where she was running to. As if, in her old age she surely would have a tiny bit of 'wisdom' like look where you're going, or suing a huge multibillion dollar company with a flimsy story like that is stupid.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Accident my Arse!

      @Bush_rat: "As if, in her old age she surely would have a tiny bit of 'wisdom' like look where you're going"

      I've actually seen this kind of accident happen right in front of me, and it wasn't an elderly person either. Although she was walking at an apparently normal pace, the sound of the impact was frighteningly loud and she knocked herself out (I had to catch her). I can only assume she wasn't fully concentrating, and the glass was insufficiently labelled to alert her to the threat.

      This happens more than you might think when you have too much clear glass. I think it's a basic human weakness - our minds often rely on certain queues to bring problems to our attentions, e.g. motorists (and even pedestrians) often don't see cyclists because their mind doesn't register an object that small on the road. Building regulations now often stipulate the minimum requirements for markings to glass doors for this reason.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Accident my Arse!

        Correction to previous post - should be 'cues' not 'queues' (must be Monday).

  7. Danny 14 Silver badge

    admission of guilt?

    "Clearer stickers were said to have been put in place on stores this weekend"

    an admission of issue. Good luck to her and her money sucking leeches. No wait a minute, STOP FEEDING THE LEECHES.

    1. Ivan Headache

      Re: admission of guilt?

      But shirley, clearer stickers would be even more difficult to see.

  8. Andyf

    Did she take a running jump at it?! I can't see anyway that walking at a normal speed into a glass door, presumably made from toughened security glass, would cause that kind of bullseye affect.

    Yet another case of the blame culture, in this case blaming a company with $97Bn in the bank, probably hoping that they'll pay up to make the problem go away.

    1. JC_

      Likely explanation: the Reg posted a bullsh1t picture.

      Take a look at the store front and think to yourself if clear, unmarked glass might be hard for an 83 year old to see.

      Anyone that's used the hockey-puck mouse knows that Apple are well capable of choosing form over function...

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward


        As the article says, the glass was not unmarked. It already had stickers like these.

        1. This post has been deleted by its author

        2. JC_


          Stickers placed right at knee-level, huh?

          Also, why're the stickers white? Bad choice for contrast or visibility, but perhaps more attractive, and that's what counts.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: @Metavisor

            "knee level"? Nope, it's clearly waist level. How's your eyesight?

            1. JC_

              Re: @Metavisor

              Uncorrected, my eyesight is awful, thanks for asking! But looking with contacts in, those stickers in your picture are definitely below waist level, nowhere near eye level.

              1. Rob

                Re: @JC

                Their fail is for not putting two sets of stickers at different levels on the door, the 'knee-high' stickers are eye level for those that are vertically challenged.

  9. JetSetJim Silver badge

    "White stickers already placed on the transparent glass panels of Apple's stores are insufficient warnings, apparently. Clearer stickers were said to have been put in place on stores this weekend."

    So, rather than opaque white ones, they're putting up (semi-) transparent ones?

  10. Simon Harris Silver badge


    Clearer stickers were said to have been put in place on stores this weekend.


    Wouldn't it have been better to use more opaque stickers?

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Apple not to blame.

    Clearly the OAP was using the window wrong, luckily it had rounded corners or there would have been a real problem.

  12. dotdavid

    I would have expected Apple to use a higher-contrast colour than white, considering how much white features in the rest of the design of their stores. But that said most people wouldn't have tried to sue Apple for being stupid enough to walk into a door. And as others have pointed out - if that photo is of the damage caused by the woman, was she trying to break in when it was closed or something?!

  13. qwarty

    some nose

    £47,000 for an 83 year old nose, do these things increase in value with age?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: some nose

      They do say that the nose keeps growing throughout life... and grows even longer when trying to claim $1m for walking into a door.

  14. TRT Silver badge
    Big Brother

    That's one old and angry bird!

    Now stop granny bashing and get back to work!

  15. Haku

    Did she walk or was she pushed...

    Surely Apple will have security footage of the mishap to show what really went down, though I don't think anyone outside of the investigation will see it.

  16. ratfox Silver badge

    Lucky lady

    At 83, there aren't that many ladies who can walk fast enough to break their nose on anything.

    1. Michael H.F. Wilkinson Silver badge

      Re: Lucky lady

      Elderly bones can be rather fragile. The septum (which I assume got broken) is not very strong to begin with. It is the only bone I have broken, and I can tell you it is pretty painful. Having it set is not fun either.

      I really do not know what happened, so I will not jump to conclusions.

  17. Si 1

    Did the window have an oleophobic coating and was it made from Gorilla glass?

  18. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    sounds to me

    Like a new ambulance chasing scheme

  19. Lee Dowling Silver badge


    Again, "design" over utility. Glass doors that you can't see because they "look" nice. Anyone else remember having to drag the CD icon to the Wastebin icon in order to eject a CD? And there being NO other way of doing so should the computer fail?

    Glass panels can easily be totally invisible, and if they were in the shop window, I'd say tough. It should have been obvious that they were there even if you couldn't see them. But if they were in the doorways, that's just another You've Been Framed conservatory-door waiting to happen. Sometimes you just CANNOT see them and if you don't expect them to be there, you can do damage.

    That said, warning stickers already present and breaking your nose? Sorry. I don't buy it. They either had the warning stickers or didn't, and you either accidentally walked into it or you ran full-pelt into the damn thing. Worst I imagine happening would be a bruised ego and maybe a nosebleed if you're particularly sensitive to them, and if you're 83 I doubt that a turn of speed was entirely sensible and maybe your eyesight IS already failing.

    In the school I work in, we had to put stickers at eye-height on things that were clear-glass, even if they were in a 3-foot-wide frame and quite clearly a door. I'm not sure if that was H&S-mongery or whether there's actually something about it in the law.

    But, honestly, why do you WANT whole-glass fronts? The Apple shops are bare enough of product as it is without advertising the fact. And if you do have thousands of *THE* most expensive product out there, it might be an idea to use something unbreakable too, rather than a 20-foot-long pane of glass.

    1. Ian Davies

      Re: Apple

      Lee, stop masturbating.

    2. Sean Timarco Baggaley

      Re: Apple

      "Anyone else remember having to drag the CD icon to the Wastebin icon in order to eject a CD? And there being NO other way of doing so should the computer fail?"

      Er, no. Apple's optical drives had small holes you could poke a (straightened) safety pin—or something of similar size and shape—through to open a stuck drive. You may not have noticed, but the exact same holes could be found on PC optical drives too as a backup for the usual eject buttons. Optical drives are an unusual example of a "soft-eject" design on a standard PC component.

      Whenever possible, Apple will always opt for a software eject mechanism for all external storage media, including floppy disks, so that the user is never, ever, faced with a "WTF? I was WRITING to that medium, you idiot! PUT IT BACK!" -type error message. You know: the same message you get when your parent yanks out a USB flash drive or memory card without first 'ejecting' it in the OS first. This is, incidentally, why the iPhone and iPad are unlikely to ever include support for removable storage like SD Cards: a motorised software-controlled SD Card ejection mechanism would simply take up too much space.


      As for the case of "83-year-old chancer Vs. Glass door": this store has been on that site for some years now. It's also in New York, a city in a nation not known for its excellent, clear, street design, let alone shop fronts. (Seriously: I've been to a couple of US cities and both looked like they were vomited out of a planning office on a Friday afternoon. You couldn't have made San Francisco look visually messier if you tried.)

      Apple are hardly the only company to have ever used all-glass frontages. This is not "design over function". Applying force to a glass door will open it, just like any other door. If the door fails to move, you're supposed to stop pushing. Not simply hurl your entire body at it. Most people these days know how doors work. Especially 83-year-old people who must have visited many, many shops in their lifetimes.

      Here in Italy, at the Apple Store in Rome's RomaEst shopping centre, not only is the frontage all glass, but there aren't even any stickers or notices on them. They're still not that hard to spot. Even the clearest, glare-free-est of glass frontages has some reflections that will give you the visual cues you need. And there's also the small matter of the gaps between each pane. Both elements are clearly visible even in your linked photograph.

      Ergo, the woman was either an imbecile, or she is blind / vision-impaired. Neither is Apple's problem. I have lousy eyesight, but that just means I have to spend money on glasses. What I don't get to do is demand the world bows to my (minor) disability: I'm in a minority here. It's my responsibility to ensure I am capable of interfacing with the real world. It is not the rest of the world's responsibility to ensure it is capable of interfacing with me. That way, only madness lies.

  20. spodula


    i wonder if its actually the women who is the driving force behind this or the Medical insurance company? If they were suing apple, they would have to do it in her name.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Actually..

      If it were the insurance company, they’d just want their cost covered, not punitive damages as well

  21. despicable me

    A million bucks

    Does she have a patent on "walking into glass" or something?

    1. wayward4now

      Re: A million bucks

      Someone should have checked her purse for a ballpeen hammer. No ones nose could have made a hole that big without seriously getting cut up on the face. There should be blood all over the glass. Maybe that is Zimmerman's granny??

  22. xerocred

    A friend did the same- long ago

    Bi - Before iPhone - or mobiles for that matter, a friend of mine did similar damage accidentally walking into a glass door in Debenhams in Ipswich. It shattered spectecularly in two places caused by his head and knee.

    He fell down and staff rushed to his assistance - he escaped serious injury but felt like a bit of a dick.

    He didn't sue, he was just happy they didn't come after him for a new door.

    Ouch - that gotta hurt - but feeling like a right dick is worse.

    1. APA

      Re: A friend did the same- long ago

      And that is the correct response for walking to a glass door; shame, embarrassment and hopefully with enough remaining mobility to run away just in case your asked to pay for damages.

      This whole case is backwards, surely Apple should be suing her to try and reclaim (literal) damages. After all, arty installations are expensive, right?

      Windows User - because they're a pain in the glass.

      1. matooti
        Thumb Up

        Re: A friend did the same- long ago

        This sounds great, who's up for a trip to the local lighting store or Swarovski to 'accidentally' start flinging the stock around.

        Hours of fun at no cost! Don't forget the 'I'm 83 with bad eyesight' when security come a runnin.

  23. Leona A

    I'm surprised....

    ... its taken this long for something like this to happen, I hate Glass! its the bane of my life!

    For those with low vision, its not easy to see this transparent materiel ;)

    I can not tell you how many glass doors, display cabinets and tables I have walked into because I couldn't see them, but have to admit non have ever broken or caused me more than than a bruise or slight embarrassment :)

    I think that shows the different between the UK and US, if this happened in the UK there would be no payout and everyone would be happy there was no serious injuries, however in the US.... Sue city!

    But then, if it stops retail outlets using unmarked glass doors, then all good.

    Not everybody has 20/20 vision!

    1. Sean Timarco Baggaley

      Re: I'm surprised....

      I have poor vision: both strong astigmatism and myopia.

      I have never walked into a glass door, window, or anything else. There are these things called "glasses". You might want to try some. They're awfully good. (I still stub my toe against low furniture on occasion as I need different glasses for close vision and distance vision and don't usually wear the latter pair indoors. Even so, it's pretty easy to remember where stuff is and avoid hitting it again next time.)

      If your vision is so badly impaired that not even glasses can help you function in the outside world, I suggest you invest in a white cane and / or a guide dog. Either that, or find a better optician.

      1. Leona A

        Re: I'm surprised....

        Hum, shows how little you (and most others unfortunately) know about eye sight problems doesn't it!? I hear this all the time, "oh way don't you wear glasses", like oh why didn't I think of that! its because, if the brain can not receive a good signal because the eyes (not just the lens, which is the only thing Glasses correct, btw), is damaged then there is bugger all that can be done!

        I have Complex Microphthalmos, Coloboma, Nystagmus, Glaucoma as well as loosing most of the retina from my right eye, as well as having my lens removed and the eye filled with oil to keep what's left of my retina back, thanks to it detaching a few years ago, how much difference do you think Glasses are really going to make! You Idiot!

  24. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    83 year old?

    This is NOT the demographic apple are trying to appeal to. Serves her right for looking at the shiny iToys

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      I'm 84 and posting here on my iPad, only took a few hours too. Retirement is bliss.

  25. Anonymous Coward

    Apple iDoor - 'It just whacks...'

    (...old ladies right in the face).

  26. Philip Grass

    More thinking required

    In Germany you often see silhouettes of hawks stuck on glass windows to stop other birds flying into windows. Obviously what you need here is a silhouette of something that will repel the poor lady. Answers on a postcard please ...

    PS. Just to clarify, we don't superglue real hawks to the windows, only black plastic shapes.

    1. Simon Harris Silver badge

      Re: More thinking required

      This might do the trick...

      Linky here...

  27. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Break nose?

    At 83, they normally only break wind!

  28. Zog The Undeniable

    They're called "manifestations"

    The stickers that show you there is a pane of glass there, that is.

  29. This post has been deleted by a moderator

    1. JC_

      Re: Prison would fix this

      "This woman does not belong in society. She is morally defective and, yes I will say it, Evil. You would be hard pressed to find a more clear cut example of the victim mentality than this pitiful excuse for human flotsam. And Bollocks to she's 83! She was a conniving bitch at 23, I assure you!"

      Nastiest comment ever? Or am I just feeding the troll? Hmm...

  30. HP Cynic


    Please let me be the first to notice that the name of the lady who walked into the glass was "Paswall".....

    Anyway, I've done this myself at a hostel when some asshat closed a glass patio door behind me when I want to the loo. There were no stickers on it and it was very clean so obscured almost no light and thus I walked directly into it on my return.

    I got a great laugh out of it and some bent specs but had it broken I'd have been suing the hostel.

    Not for $1m of course, the amount she's claiming is insane.

  31. Citizen Kaned


    my dad fell off a stool in Morrisons the other week. i will be looking forward to inheriting some of the £1m he should get then? :)

  32. Simon Harris Silver badge

    If this goes to court...

    ... I suppose Apple will be up before the Beak.

  33. This post has been deleted by a moderator

  34. Anonymous John


    A bit old to be an Appletard, isn't she?

  35. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Paging Mr T & World's Craziest Fools...

    I pity the fool who can't walk without crashing into their surroundings. Look at this fool - she's 83 and still can't work out how doors and glass work. Fool!

  36. Simon Harris Silver badge


    If the old lady now walks into the glass door at a Samsung store while she's waiting for her nose to heal,

    will Apple sue for infringing their patient ?

  37. jake Silver badge

    In other news ...

    83 year old man's family sues after he makes a hard right turn mid-span on the Golden Gate Bridge, falling to his death in the icy waters of the Golden Gate. Why take it before the Beak? Because there are no signs mid-span saying "no right turn".

    Honestly ... the mind boggles.

    1. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

      Re: In other news ...

      Oh come on, he was clearly just doing what his SatNav told him to. Not his fault at all.

  38. Dave 150

    what do the stickers say...

    Look where you're %$£%$& going?

  39. John Lilburne Silver badge

    Obviously she had no expectation that Apple would be using Windows.

  40. JImme

    Injury Lawyers

    My guess is that its the lawyers who are pushing her to sue Apple... You know the "No Win No Fee" samaritans

  41. Azzy


    Typical american ambulance chaser type. Glass doors are in use throughout the world, because they look good, and give prospective customers a clearer view of the inside of the store, helping to draw them in.

    They also almost universally have a handle of some sort on them (IIRC, apple's have the standard metal bar across the front), so you can push/pull the door without smudging the glass, so they're not invisible. One would think that the handle floating in mid-air would be a tipoff, even to those with poor vision - unless of course they're not looking where they're going.

  42. toadwarrior
    Thumb Down

    You don't get a one million dollar reward for being senile.

  43. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    It's Amazing!

    To see Apple and Windows working so well together.

  44. Andus McCoatover

    How do blind folks manage??

    Oh, come on, someone photoshop a bloke standing in front of a glass door with his guide-dog's head through the glass!

    Please...Pretty please..

  45. Gavin King

    I can imagine...

    That she was in a bit of pane after this.

  46. Edwin

    Wrung up?

    Surely that should be 'rung up' as in a reference to old bell-equipped cash registers?

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