back to article Dumb salesmen are hurting us – Nokia CEO

Stephen Elop got a pretty indulgent reception from analysts, and most of the press yesterday, after delivering some shocking results. Nokia turned a profit of €2bn into a loss of €1bn in the new boss's first full year; volumes are down by 29 per cent; sales of the new Windows phone are unremarkable (to put it generously); and …

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  1. Giles Jones Gold badge

    A mass market maker went with a unpopular (at least in market share terms) OS and have an unpopular product. I think the phrase "no shit sherlock" should come to mind.

    Symbian was the Android of the 2000s, it was on phones from more than one vendor. If Nokia truly wanted a lot of phones shipped it would have gone with Android. But of course their CEO is an ex-Microsoft guy (probably planted there by Microsoft).

    1. This post has been deleted by its author

    2. asdf Silver badge
      FAIL

      blame the correct people

      M$ is just doing what they always do. Blame Nokia's incompetent board and clueless shareholders. Is indecision a big part of Finland's culture because I am pretty sure bureaucracy is.

      1. John Sanders
        Linux

        @asdf

        Calling Micros~1 M$ is childish.

        But yes, Micros~1 will always be Micros~1 and will come to kill everything they touch, they are like "The Thing", by the time Nokia realizes that WinMo is going nowhere it will be too late.

        I foresee (the dear old' reg as witness) that Nokia will try to commercialize an Android device when they are on their dead bed.

        1. Silverburn

          Microsoft in decline

          Anyone who thinks MS are in decline need to look at recent financials. Record revenue per quarter last quarter ($20bn).

          Don't confuse diversification with decline; MS know they can't rely on their core products anymore, so need to get in to new markets. Some have worked, some have not, that's all.

          1. Giles Jones Gold badge

            Depends what you deem to be their successful product lines? As soon as people stop buying Windows and Office they're basically screwed just like Kodak was once people stopped buying film.

            Also, numerous clever important people have resigned from Microsoft and gone to work for Google and other competitors, working at Microsoft doesn't really look good on the CV now.

            1. Silverburn

              @ Giles

              Exactly my point - MS know this, thus their drive into consumer, mobile, cloud, business services etc.

              So far, it's working (with some notable failures), but I agree - these products aren't exactly setting the world alight. Maybe because the true innovators have left, as you suggest?

          2. Manu T
            Devil

            microsoft = parasitic corporation

            "MS know they can't rely on their core products anymore, so need to get in to new markets. Some have worked, some have not, that's all."

            You mean 'diversification ' like turning into a pattent-troll. MS makes revenue thanks to their old tactics of intimidation (AKA Microsoft Tax). Every Android handset maker pays dividents to Microsoft for using Android while Google (whom actually made that OS) goes down.

            Where's the time when competing actually meant "making BETTER products then our competition"?

            The fact is that Microsoft have always earned money on the backs of others. It's a parasitic corporation by nature. The "industry" should have enough experience with them for now but it seems that there are still a bunch of naive CEO's around. It also helps a lot if you place a mole in your biggest competition. Not to mention that Nokia is today ran by a bunch of greedy suits and they welcome the billions of M$-dollars. What happens to the thousands of workers you leave behind is not their problem. I guess they think that the Bill_Gates_foundation will take care of them >:-> (Or working for Apple at the chinese Foxcon-factories surely will)

        2. Manu T

          @ John Sanders

          Oh for god's sake, man!! IT'S NOT WinMo IT'S WinPho!!!!!

          WinMo had FULL bluetooth transfer, Full multitasking, some models had inbuild 2-way callrecording, USB/bluetooth syncing with Outlook installed on home-PC/workstation etc...

          WinPho has NOTHING of that! No bluetooth file transfer, limited multitasking, no USB syncing... it's all cloud this and cloud that.

          like the first poster wrote. No shit, Sherlock!

          As for Android. Nokia should steer away from Android as far as they can. As a hardware vendor it wouldn't matter since they'd be paying Microsoft too (just as any other Android handset maker today does). So whether going for a full M$ WP7.x license or a 'cheap' Android license and paying microsoft tax on every device sold (for whatever idiotic reason) makes no difference financially. It's probably cheaper just to go with the WP7.x license.

          Secondly Nokia can't diversify itself enough between the ultracheap chinese crapdroids and ubergeek galaxy's/Experia's. Hence would drown in anonimity as yet another Android handset-maker.

          Nokia should just STICK with Symbian and secretly mature Meego as possible replacement. We see now that the N9 is a fantastic device with the ONLY real iOS contender in terms of OS functionality/ease-of-use. Allthough it's far from complete and put to market too soon. Also Symbian is evolving too in a very nice UI with the very best of technical features available today. It doesn't need the Dual/quad-core multi-GHz cpu's of Android devices to keep up. And it has NFC coupled with FULL BT transfer, full multitasking, call-recording, outlook sync over USB/BT including categories etc...

          these features are a testament to the what Symbian developpers have accomplished over the years. These should be applauded not Microsoft half baked attempt to revitalize its own failed portfolio that Windows Mobile/Pocket PC OS really was.

          1. Peter 48

            sticking with symbian

            that would be a guarantee for failure. At least with MS as a partner they have some chance. In this market where virtually all phones are highly capable devices, marketing is by far the BIGGEST factor in a phone's success. The only people to see that until recently have been apple and as a result they are reaping the benefits of such vast exposure. Over the last year Samsung seem to have finally cottoned on and are heavily promoting the Galaxy s2. The result, stellar sales at iphone levels in the UK for example. Now lets look at the level of promotion that MS and Nokia are doing . . . . . . . . . . . tumble weed . . . . . . . And they wonder why they are not selling? The same applies to tablet sales. When was the last time you have seen an ad for a tablet outside of specialist media that wasn't for the ipad?

            We live in such a media heavy world where we are constantly bombarded by levels of information and data that mankind has never experienced before. To stay relevant you have to be pervasive and Apple are the masters in that field. Just being good (or even the best) and relying on the point of sales forces to push your product is sadly no longer enough.

        3. werdsmith Silver badge

          and.

          Writing Microsoft as "Micros~1" appears as much puerile as <$ is childish.

    3. yeahyeahno
      Windows

      Entirely predictable

      This debacle was entirely predictable from the moment the Microsoftie choose to put Nokias entire future entirely in the hands of Microsoft, a company which is in decline anyway, a mere shadow of what it once was.

    4. Bob Vistakin
      FAIL

      Microsofts victims over the past 30 years are sending them a message: paybacks a bitch.

    5. LarsG

      I HAD NO IDEA

      Nokia were still making phones!

      1. Robin Szemeti
        Coat

        Making?

        Making phones .. sure ..

        Selling phones? Ah, there you may have a point ;)

        I'll get my coat, its the one with a HTC in the pocket ...

    6. The Man Who Fell To Earth
      Holmes

      A fish rots from the head down

      A team leader blaming his team instead of taking responsibility for their performance is not a team leader. Nokia won't turn anything around as long as this guy is the CEO.

    7. Wize

      'A mass market maker went with a unpopular (at least in market share terms) OS and have an unpopular product. I think the phrase "no shit sherlock" should come to mind.'

      Not forgetting their poor hardware. They used to be solid products but the N97 and a few others around the same time) had some nasty build quality problems.

      And like any consumer, you get something bad, you stay away from them for your next few purchases. Which, with mobile contracts lasting 2 years these days, is going to be 4 to 6 years before those customers considers buying from them again.

    8. stylinred
      Meh

      No

      Symbian was still outselling android and ios worldwide up until Elops "leaked" letter and premature announcement of its death

      Since that moment sales began to shrink and fall while Androids/iOS continued to rise (platform jumpers?)

      Symbian is more than capable of keeping Android @ bay and Maemo (aka Harmattan found in the N9) is more than capable of surpassing even Symbian

      The problem is SElop and the incompetent BoD @ Nokia

      They could have easily picked up WP7 as another alternative until WP shows if it can be successful before announcing an end to your 2 successful OS's and worldwide #1 OS

      There would be no reason to pick up Android when Android is just a cheap copy of Maemo

  2. Jess

    Yes. I have

    But today I saw him with an iPhone. he'd returned the Lumia because it has to few apps to be any use to him.

    (The only good thing about the old WinCE was all the apps, if they are gone, then what is the point?)

    1. James Gibbons
      WTF?

      Dumb salesman

      And after the sales associate got done filling out all the paperwork on the return and got no extra commission for selling them a new Android, how do you think they would feel about selling another WP7?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Carphone Warehouse staff do NOT get paid commision. Just FYI.

        1. Marvin the Martian
          Holmes

          Nokia should re-name their salesmen.

          Nokia should officially title their salesmen "turd polishers", as it exactly describes the job and what's going wrong with the company.

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    And maybe the problem is

    1) You burned your loyal customer base and they sworn they would never buy your product.

    2) People do not want your product. You can stand up there and say how great it is and how bad the retail world is, but is is the same world that Apple and Android are doing just fine in. I think most people know what phone (or least what line they want) before they walk into a store. Guess where WP 8 is on the list.

    Nokia picked the third place horse in a two horse race.

    1. Ocular Sinister

      No applications

      I keep seeing adverts for various smart phone applications on the tube - Kabbee, Hail-o, various dating sites, you know the usual nonsense. They all have iOS and Android logos. None have a Windows logo. I'm sure that Microsoft is pushing these businesses to make a WinPho version, but the attempts seem half hearted. Even when there are WinPho versions, they are not promoted in any way - after all, what's the point when no one has a WinPhone?

      This alone would be enough to make me discard it as a 'burning platform'. Or maybe two burning platforms colliding in the middle of the night, long after the proverbial boat has sailed.

    2. hewbass
      Mushroom

      well actually they picked the 8th horse in 3 horse race. They are still being beaten by their own competition of Symbian, as it shambles, zombie like, off the great cliff of obsolescence.

      Lumia is still being beaten (massively) by RIM, Bada, and possibly even Meego/Harmattan (for extra irony) (it would be immensely funny if the Lumia sales do actually turn out to be behind both the two platforms Nokia have abandoned)

      (mines the elopcalypse)

    3. apleszko
      FAIL

      I am one of the previous fans that sworn to never buy it a Nokia phone again after they ditched Maemo just a few months after releasing N900. I did made that statement as an emotional reaction and maybe I could betray the promise if Nokia had been back on track.

      Then while I was pretty pleased with Android, I testify Nokia's continuous effort to burn all loyal base, both with Symbian and Meego platforms. Now with Windows Phone they think the customers and developers are magically coming back as nothing happened...

      Thanks Nokia for helping me keeping my promise!! I still don't see me buying a Nokia phone in the long term future even if Microsoft somehow manages to buy into the iOS and Android market, which is very very very unlikely (to use just a few "very's").

      1. Big-nosed Pengie
        FAIL

        If Nokia had had the brains to stick with Maemo they'd be wiping the floor with iOS and Android now. Talk about snatching defeat from the jaws of victory...

        1. Richard Neill

          ...and if they'd open sourced it *properly*

          I bought an N900 for development work. Resistive-touchscreen notwithstanding, it was a delight to use, and to develop for: it actually ran regular "desktop" Linux natively: Gtk, X, etc. You could even run X applications via SSH forwarding. The apps weren't all there, but it was so close: the next rev would have been awesome. It even contained neat hardware (IR and FM transmitters), and had a much better camera. Getting started with Maemo was really easy (Nokia made the environment and cross-compiler easy to set up), and it used Gtk rather than Qt (so apps ran quickly and could be written in mostly plain-C). The "Hildon" extensions to Gtk for the phone were actually rather good.

          BUT, it wasn't properly open-source: as so often happens, there are just a few nasty binary blobs that mean you can't really truly build the entire environment yourself. In my case, this was a killer: we needed to be able to simultaneously multitask the camera and telephone calls. But the camera app needed full access to the sound-card for the shutter-click, so would block during the call. I could very easily re-build a separate application which worked as we wanted...but here is the ridiculous part: only if I didn't want to make use of the proprietary blob used for autofocus. Yes, really: I could use the camera, but only by not implementing the unnecessary "focussing" feature !!

          So that was 200 N900s we didn't buy, and in the end we took a totally different approach. I wish companies would understand that open-source really means all-or-nothing.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            By "binary blob" I presume you mean "library"? These are relatively commonly found in the wild; I'm surprised you haven't come across them before, e.g. all of Windows is delivered this way. They usually have headers, etc. which allow you to use them.

            I presume you're complaining about the fact that you couldn't use the "binary blob" because they didn't document it or give you headers, rather than the fact it was a "binary blob" per se? Because it doesn't sound like you really needed to get in and hack around the auto-focussing code.

            I wish people would understand that in any sufficiently complex software system, you just can't have everything open source. The mentality that you can comes from the ancient practice of implementing everything in-house. These days some components are bought in - usually the more complex stuff that takes skilled people and costs real money per LOC to write.

            Always makes me laugh when companies bend over backwards to open-source as much of their codebase as they possibly can, then get flamed by the community for still using binary code delivery for the tech that they bought in and can't open source.

            1. Chemist

              "that in any sufficiently complex software system........everything open source."

              e.g. the Linux kernel Oh wait !

      2. garyc2011
        Thumb Up

        mee too

        I have not seen ONE WP phone and I work in IT

        Your story is so similar to mine, I was one of the first to buy the n500 in the UK, £500 sim free it cost me............

        I also swore that was me and Nokia finished, and i remember posting on the maemo board along with others that Nokia was arrogantly tossing these vital first adopters aside like trash.

        They dropped maemo like a brick, and left it full of bugs, so I dont feel one bit sorry for them. The Chickens have came home to roost.

      3. Piro
        Pint

        This is it, really

        I remember before the N900 came out, I absolutely wanted nothing else.

        But then the delays came, and came, eventually it hit, but then they decided to abandon the whole platform.

        Wow. N900 should have been the template on which Nokia should have carried on from. Instead, they tossed it all in the bin, well, with the small exception of the N9, which actually looks alright, but it lacks a lot of the nerdy features of the N900. But then they definitely threw it in the bin, kicked dirt in its face, and started fellating Microsoft round the back of the bike sheds.

        1. Lance 3

          More amazing is that the N900 traces it roots back to the 7710 (S90) device. The GUI was carried on to Maemo. If Nokia would have actually used S90 on more phones, things would have been far different today. Amazing how they went from a phone, to a tablet and then back to a phone (N900) and had delays putting on what essentially was taken out.

          The N9 is quite impressive and is where Nokia should have been headed. Symbian was getting there as well for the mainstream; this is where Belle really comes in. The jump to WP was made in haste. If you look at sales, there were shipping more and more Symban phones every quarter compared to a year ago. Sure they were losing market share, sales were still going up. If that is a burning platform, I would hate to see what they are going to call WP.

          1. Goat Jam

            The jump to WP was made in haste

            No, the jump to WP was deliberately implemented by an MS stooge who was considering the best interests of Redmond and their desire to embed WP into a huge hardware manufacturer.

            It was no accident and all other options were completely ignored.

          2. Martin Harnevie

            Belle is growing 4 times faster than WP

            You're perfectly correct.

            Furthermore, take a look at Elop's sales figures. Belle is growing 4 times faster than WP.

    4. Lance 3

      @AC Posted Friday 27th January 2012 16:41 GMT

      "Nokia picked the third place horse in a two horse race."

      That isn't fair. That picked a 6th placed horse. Symbian still outsells WM and WP combined by a large margin. MeeGo (N9) has has even outsold the Lumia line. BlackBerry sells more than WM WP combined as well.

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    It never stops to amaze me...

    When there is something going wrong in a big(ger) company its never the CEO or board of directors, but always the "working floor" which is to blame.

    Yet when the company is coughing up some big profits then its "remarkable leadership" which has been the cause.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      The mouth piece of anything talks itself up in basically any situation.

      For example, its clear what gives someone a fantastic singing voice. But on occasion, if done right, a burp can be passed off as a fart.

    2. TheOtherHobbbes

      Never mind

      the ineffable levels of HR genius needed to get on a platform and make a speech that's going to mightily piss off the people who are selling for you.

      Where did Nokia find this troll? (Yeah, I know. Microsoft. Spiritual home of the IT Troll Lords.)

  5. Andrew Stevenson

    I'm pretty sure that pushy sales people will not fix the problem.

  6. spegru

    I wonder if

    The biggest WinPho problem is its stupid name!

    The UI looks pretty nice from what I've seen in my local phone shop

    But harking back to the Windows PC is probably beyond pointless - into harmful

    Why don't they call it something more distinctive - oh I don't know even ZuneOS would be better!

    1. Richard 12 Silver badge
      Facepalm

      You've got a point there

      Windows Mobile is a very toxic brand - almost* everybody who has ever used it dislike if not outright hates it.

      Windows CE was pretty much "meh". Nobody cared about it, barely anyone really noticed it. (Although they're pretty much the same thing)

      So MS rebranded the new one as Windows Phone.

      Unfortunately the memorable part of Windows Mobile, Windows CE and Windows Phone is the "Windows" prefix, not the suffix.

      So the rebrand isn't working - at my workplace, the only person who knows that Windows Phone isn't the same thing as Windows Mobile is me, and that's only because I'm about as pedantic about terminology as it's possible to get and still meet people.

      So nobody wants to even give it a try.

      *Everybody I know hates it. It's possible that someone, somewhere that I've never met might not.

      1. Gordon 10 Silver badge

        Actually

        WinMob was a pretty decent stab at a phone OS. I had 4 handsets in a row and functionality wise it was comparable with a blackberry of the time plus it was second only to symbian in available apps.

        Unfortunately MS threw all that good stuff away when it went to winpho.

        1. Eponymous Cowherd

          Re: Actually

          ***"WinMob was a pretty decent stab at a phone OS"****

          I have two phone on the desk in front of me. An HTC Sensation (Android) and an HTC Touch Pro 2 (Windows Mobile 6.5).

          There is *absolutely* no comparison with regard to general usability. Windows Mobile is just so clunky, awkward and unfriendly.

          Windows Mobile was a half-hearted stab at a phone OS bodged from a PDA OS. As the operating system for an early "noughties" PDA, it did the job. As the OS of a 2010+ "smartphone" its frightful.

          As a smartphone OS, Windows Phone is actually very good, but, in the light of the momentum of iOS and Android, it is *way* too little, *way* too late.

      2. Manu T

        "everybody who has ever used it dislike if not outright hates it."

        Actually I didn't hate it. I hated Samsung (my last foray into windows mobile) because of their dreadfull after-sales support. And because in their great vision removed most o/t features that I required from their Omnia 1 out of the Omnia 2.

        I went Symbian since then after I encountered that a Symbian device could do exactly the same as what I expected from my Windows mobile 6.1 smartphone. Namely, syncing with outlook including categories, 2-way callrecording, full bluetooth transfer including syncing, full multitasking and all the 3rd party apps that I would need where there (even freeware/cracked/hacked versions).

        It's not that I wouldn't want an nice shiny Android device (I once had my eyes set on an Experia Neo and LG 2xSpeed but ditched them because o/t the lack of 2-way callrecording) especially since i now know about some (affordable) software to sync with outlook over usb/bt.

        The problem is that Android isn't any better. There's a well-documented bug in the OS that prevents most devices from standard native full 2-way callrecording coupled with the unwillingness from handset makers to provide info/documentation/source-code for various bits and pieces. This makes that while the stream of useless (fart-)apps keeps growing, the lack of really usefull or even essential apps eventually will kill it off. The same with iPhone.

        Another thing you shouldn't forget. Current iOS (teenager-crowd)buyers aren't brand-loyal! Just see how they turned from Blackberry (which isn't even for their market anyway) into iPhone fanboys/girls. They'll adopt tomorrow the next shiny thing without substance.

      3. Richard 12 Silver badge
        Happy

        So, it turns out that two people like WinMob

        Good to know - thanks for the downvotes!

  7. dotdavid
    Facepalm

    It's all about the apps

    I had a look at one of the Nokia Windows demos, and was impressed with the speed of the handset (although Androids of a similar price perform similarly well). I thought the tiles thing was a UI I could get used to. I also like the idea of getting timely OS updates without idiotic manufacturers and operators getting in the way.

    But then I thought "what about all the apps I've bought?". I suspect a lot of Apple/Android users think the same way. I also like the customisable nature of Android and the Nokia seemed pretty one-size-fits-all.

    I'm ambivilent towards Nokia, having never really tried Symbian after getting frustrated with their dumbphone software and moving to Windows Mobile. I disliked Microsofts attitude towards the WinMo community though, basically ignoring them, creating half-assed Windows Mobile updates and then dumping them by moving to a locked down Windows Phone 7. So I (and loads of others) moved to Android and have been reasonably happy ever since.

    So who is the target market? The cheap handsets are mainly Androids. The desirable ones are mainly top-end Androids and iPhones. The ex-WinMo enthusiasts tend to get Androids. The ex-Nokia enthusiasts hate Nokia's guts now. Who are they pitching at?

    I'd like there to be three strong players in the smartphone market but I can't see Nokia/WinMo being the third.

    1. M Gale

      If you like the UI...

      Launcher 7, from the Android Market. I have the donate version. It's okay to be different but I still find myself sticking with ADW Launcher EX.

      Even lesd reason to get a Windows Phone!

  8. jai

    i've seen one!

    Someone in the office has one, it's the only one I've seen. And I work in the IT dept, so you'd think there'd be a higher percentage of people in this dept that would be willing to try out the new platform. And from the quick glance i got of it, and brief demo, it did look quite interesting.

    However, he's getting annoyed by it. Too few apps and some really annoying UI decisions that mean you have to take several actions when the intuitive step would be one. But that's a windows UI problem, not a Nokia one.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      "But that's a windows UI problem, not a Nokia one."

      ...which is now the same thing, that's just it.

      1. Manu T

        No it isn't. Expect when you have a problem with Symbian. Then you can yell at Nokia. But in this case blame Microsoft not Nokia.

        You can only blame Nokia for choosing this crippled proprietary OS as their next best smartphone OS instead of sticking with meego (which was allmost production-ready at that time).

        1. Goat Jam

          Say what?

          Nokia sold you a phone with Windows Phone on it.

          It was Nokia who decided that Windows Phone is the way to go so any UI problems that WinPho has are now Nokia's problem.

          They had a choice as to which OS to use you know.

  9. This post has been deleted by its author

  10. hewbass
    Devil

    Dear Mr. Orlowski,

    I'm not having a go or anything, but I am curious to know if you actually purchased Lumia devices with your own money, or whether they were received as part of your job.

    Would you recommend them for someone else to actually buy (I mean what would a WP device give me, other than a headache on how to run Zune desktop in my windows free household) (or even, if I had a windows pc, the fact that I had to run desktop software at all to use my phone properly)

    best regards and all that

  11. SiempreTuna
    Thumb Down

    It's not too late ..

    .. for Nokia to start knocking out some decent Droids.

    The Lumia looks OK and from what I recall, the specs weren't bad. I could be tempted .. if it ran Android.

    Punting a few Droids might not fit with the Take-Back-the-World Elop-vision, but Nokia's way past the big come back. Now it's all about stayin' alive and that means getting some products out there that people will buy. It needs a toe-hold in the market and a couple of decent Droids could do that faster than any other strategy.

    They may not own the market, but Samsung are doing pretty well with the dreaded Droids.

    Wouldn't stop Nokia selling W8 phones either, though they'd probably lose a chunk of MS change.

    1. Vic

      > for Nokia to start knocking out some decent Droids.

      They could put that together in no time flat. And it might well save the company.

      Will they do it? Will they buggery.

      Vic.

      1. Manu T

        @ Vic

        No they wont. And it wont matter. As I wrote before why go for a suposedly cheap Android license and pay heft Microsoft tax for every device you produce instead of going for the full WP7.x license (which is probably cheaper as well)?

        Also how would Nokia diversify itself from HTC and Samsung (the 2 major Android players as we speak). Where both these companies already cover the full price-range. Nokia either has to stick with their own OS's (and catter for the huge R&D cost itself) or buy the least known, in this case WP7.x, (thereby ditching the high R&D cost) and try to revitalize their market with a suposedly 'new' product. In this case 'new' means less known or even unknown and hence 'unseen' equels 'new'.

        It's a lame situation but understandable for Nokia. They really needed to fill the pockets of their shareholders once again. That the entire Symbian and Meego workforce had to pay for this, is not their concern I guess.

        Similar stupid devastating decisions are made all over the western world today in a myriad of fields including banking, politics, social and other -welfare etc...

        1. Richard 12 Silver badge
          Facepalm

          @Manu T

          I haven't heard of any other CEOs who managed to wipe 30% off the share price with a single memo.

          Perhaps you could enlighten me as to how that is a good idea.

          Most bad CEOs kill companies slowly over many years with repeated bad decisions (Kodak), very few manage to take a company from $11.73 to $5.08 in less than a year.

          That doesn't sound like shareholder value to me.

          Presumably the double dividend last year was a sweetener, though paying a dividend while getting rid of nearly all your R&D looks rather short-sighted for a technology company.

    2. John Sanders
      Linux

      My thoughts really...

      But they will do it only when it is too late, by that time they will be a me too.

      With some ability (they can) they could produce some decently-priced mid-range droids, if Nokias were good at something it was at building phones that last and feel solid.

      The high-end market is out of reach for them now, it is too late.

    3. Bob Vistakin
      FAIL

      "It's not too late for Nokia to start knocking out some decent Droids."

      You mean when Elop quits and scurries back to Redmond? You do realise he's just Microsofts puppet - in fact he was their 8th largest individual shareholder on the day Steve Ballmer assigned him the Nokia mission.

  12. James 51 Silver badge

    My brother bought one SIM free. I went into a three shop once and looked at the Nokia phones which were bunched together. The sales person came over and told me I didn't want an old phone like those and tried to convince me I wanted an iphone of a Samsung.

    1. Manu T

      In which case Elop IS right. The sales-channel IS the factor that slows down Nokia's revenue.

      Maybe he's not so dumb after all.

  13. alexh2o
    Unhappy

    Personally, I own a Lumia 800 and have done since launch. It does upset me a little its still such an underrated device! And this is coming from someone who has owned an HTC Hero, iPhone 3G, iPhone 3GS and a Samsung GS2 over many years.

    The OS is fast and fluid. Runs well on simple hardware. Has some really awesome UI tricks too. Like everything though, its better in some respects, and worse in others. I personally think the good outweighs the bad.

    I don't get complaints about it being locked down - the iPhone manages just fine, it doesnt stop it doing everything I want from a phone, and what exactly is it people are doing to their Androids that demand unfettered access? Other than tweaking the look, which personally I prefer vanilla to any day!

    Complaints about apps, again I dont get. Yes there are 1 or 2 still missing, but no deal breakers, and they'll appear soon. What are these apps people really need also?? The phone out of the box does 80% of what I want, and going to the actual website offers the same or more functionality, and I can just pin the bookmark as a tile to the start screen. Even if you have invested in apps, how many of those would you actually want still, and what is the real cost of repurchasing? Id be very surprised if you are talking more than £20/30, and even that seems high! Maybe game are more, but that doesnt stop people when a new console comes out!

    I genuinely believe that when Windows 8 comes out, Windows Phone 8 moves to the NT kernel, and the HTML5 windows apps work across all Windows devices, these things will be streaks ahead!

    Maybe Im just a dreamer, a blinkered fool, or a soothsayer... but I love my Lumia and wish more people would come round to Windows Phone!

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      How many years ?

      "coming from someone who has owned an HTC Hero, iPhone 3G, iPhone 3GS and a Samsung GS2 over many years."

      That would be ~mid 2007 to date

    2. Charles Manning

      Buy WP7 becaue WP8 will be great

      Amazing logic that.

      With all their pushing of WP8, MS have basically said that WP7 is crap. This is extreme overhang.

      That strategy has worked for MS in the past when they held the dominant position and people know they can upgrade (as with PCs). But in this market, it just does not work. By the time WP8 really comes out, there will be better handsets. The savvy consumer would rather wait until WP8 actually arrives before they commit real money.

      1. fishman

        They did it with Mango, etc

        At the beginning of the year, it was "just wait until Mango arrives! then we'll have caught up." Problem is that Android and IOS are moving targets.

        Frankly, if WP7 Mango has trouble against most phones running Gingerbread, how much improvement will they need in WP8 when going up against ICS?

    3. Richard Plinston Silver badge

      > I genuinely believe that when Windows 8 comes out, Windows

      > Phone 8 moves to the NT kernel, and the HTML5 windows apps

      > work across all Windows devices, these things will be streaks

      > ahead!

      The Lumia 800 is extremely unlikely to be able to run WP8. Buy one now and throw it away later this year. In fact they are already talking up the 900 as replacing the 800 and even that isn't the 'SuperPhone' that MS and Nokia are talking about (with _dual_ core and HD video sometime later this year).

      It seems that Windows 8 is _not_ 'the NT kernel', it is a new modular kernel which, allegedly, can be built in different ways to suit various hardware. This almost certainly means that there will be stratification such that stuff that runs on small devices may well work on desktops, but it does not mean that everything on tablets or desktops will run on phones.

      The change may also require some changes in WP7 apps to get them to work on WP8 and/or W8. After MS broke all WM6.x compatibility with WP7 the developers are wary of this. Silverlight may/will be dumped and that is the basis of many WP7 apps. The HTML5/Javascript is a restart for developers, they may as well move to PhoneGap and cover all phones.

      > these things will be streaks ahead!

      Well your thing with its 800x480 and single core won't be. Quad core and various screen sizes are already available now with other OS. By the time W8 and WP8 comes out they may have caught up to last year, but others will also have had a year of progress.

      Meanwhile the message from MS and Nokia is, once again, 'just you wait': for 900 (only $99.99 apparently), SuperPhone, Windows/WP 8.

      Meanwhile they are telling the salespeople they are 'variable' and 'dumb'. They have also talked about an 'incentive scheme' which will pay them commission directly. So the salespeople will wait for that before selling anything WP or Nokia.

    4. JEDIDIAH
      Linux

      The value of direct acccess.

      > and what exactly is it people are doing to their Androids that demand unfettered access?

      I can manipulate pretty much all of the data on the phone without a special app. I don't have to worry about that special app being some sort of gatekeeper that just gets in the way of what would otherwise be a simple interface (the Finder).

      This allows simple tweaks like custom ringtones to be nothing more than putting an appropriate file in the right place.

      I can use a 3rd party market like Amazon.

      I also never have to worry about getting stuff back off the device.

      Some people have a strange definition of simplicity.

      1. P. Lee
        Linux

        And people like the assurance that if a feature is possible, no gatekeeper in the US will block it and no gatekeeper will force the app removal because they insist on non-gpl compliant licenses.

    5. Vic

      > Runs well on simple hardware

      Simple hardware? The Lumia 800 is a 1.4GHz processor.

      I still administer web servers with less grunt than that...

      Vic.

    6. Steve McPolin

      Is that you Stephen?

      Surely it hasn't come to this. I don't know about the blinkered business, but I think your middle choice is pretty close to the mark.

    7. Ocular Sinister
      WTF?

      Let me get this straight

      "from someone who has owned an HTC Hero, iPhone 3G, iPhone 3GS and a Samsung GS2 over many years."

      As far as I can tell, the iPhone 3G was the earliest of those. Assuming you got the 3G the day it came out in 2008, you have had *five* phones - if we include your current Lumia too - in four years!? Maybe I'm a cheapskate, but I try to keep my phone for at least a year! Are there even any contracts for such high end phones that run < 12 months?

    8. alexh2o
      Facepalm

      Well yet again the predictable pattern occurs... a lot of downvotes, a lot of noise, but no real answers.

      I never at one point said WP7 is inadequate and just wait for WP8 - I find WP7 more than adequate today! But it doesn't hurt to make sure a platform has a future and to look to it. What is the difference between people looking forward to the Lumia 1000 or whatever and WP8, to say people looking forward to the Samsung GS3 with ICS?! Its just hypocritical...

      I dont care my Lumia wont run WP8 - I dont expect it to! Its a great phone today and will be for a while. Who needs a resolution greater than 800x480 on 3.7in screen? Who needs a quad-core in a phone when it runs smoothly on a single? (Although, according to Vic its actually a powerful phone - make your mind up people!)

      As for the "locked down" argument - still no one mentioned the iPhone which is selling gangbusters, is locked down more! There was one reply which brings up the notion of freedom to access the device and your data. I accept that is valuable. Thing is.. I changed 3 keys in the Windows registry and now my Lumia appears as a mass storage device and I can copy anything stored on it, straight off it through Explorer. Problem solved!

      After all the app complaints, no one address my comments. So Im going to say my assumptions are right, and people are just complaining because its an easy, cheap shot. The same way iPhone users used to use the same argument about Android, now its WP turn.

      I dont know who Stephen is? Unless thats a poor joke attempting to imply Im Stephen Elop, because apparently anyone who likes or promotes WP is a shill, yet its fine to go around stating why Android is amazing and the iPhone is magical. Get over it - some people like WP!

      And just to clarify... I got an iPhone 3G at launch in 2008, I was out of the 18m contract by the end of 2009, when I got the HTC Hero. I didnt like it and found it vastly inferior to the iPhone, so replaced it with the 3GS after a few months and saw out the 18m contract. Then around the middle of last year I bought a GS2 and a sim only contract - which I gave to my dad when the Lumia launched and I bought that. (My dad wanted a big screened phone so this was always my plan - got me a wicked phone for 6 months before the Nokia I wanted came out.)

      Rather than just downvote me, if Im so wrong, just confront and answer my questions please..

    9. Piro
      FAIL

      Hold on a minute

      Sorry, but you look like a fickle person with a little too much money.

      Honestly, the HTC Hero wasn't a great device, it was definitely underpowered and a bit early in Android's life, but that's just how it goes, I also had a HTC then, the Magic. Cyanogen saved me to some degree, at least.

      iPhone 3G, then 3GS, that's understandable, you got into the Apple groove of things, but then you claim to have purchased a Samsung Galaxy S II, then you replace it with a Lumia 800?

      Many years? You do know that your timescale is all out in your head. Hero came out mid-2009. iPhone 3G came out in mid 2008, iPhone 3GS hit mid 2009, almost exactly the same time as the Hero. What were you buying all these phones at the same time for?

      Then, the Galaxy S II - that only came out less than a year ago, May 2011. Then Lumia 800 in November 2011. Exceedingly unlikely your contract was due for renewal in this time, so all I can assume is that you love spending money on gadgets when some minor detail isn't exactly as you'd wish.

      I doubt you can represent the typical phone user.

    10. Manu T

      sure. If WP can do the following

      1) 2-way call recording (without 3rd party apps like Symbian does for years)

      2) FULL bluettooth transfer. I doesn't HAVE to be coupled with NFC but it would be nice though.

      3) Access hidden SSID

      4) Sync with outlook 2003/2007/2010 over USB/bluetooth on a single machine withotu the need for clouds, skydrives or whatever internet shit. I'm NOT willing to pay data-plans when just want to send a photo from my phone to another phone 2 meters away.

      THEN I'll look into it. If not, need not apply.

      1. alexh2o

        @Piro - it is true that I am probably not the typical phone user in purchase patterns. But Im in no means loaded either. I love gadgets and generally dont spend my money on designer clothes or anything, so my luxury in life is splashing a little on these toys. Though, if you think about £1500 over 3/4 years on buying or subsidising phones is a lot, I best not tell you what I blow tinkering with my gaming rig. But even that pales in comparison to what the flat/car/misses cost!

        @Manu T - I accept all of those are legitimate weaknesses, and if they are deal breakers to you, fair enough. I would argue though, that (1) and (3) are not common needs for 99% of consumers. Find me an ordinary Joe Blogs on the street who even understands the 3 words in (3)! I would also say its next to impossible to get a "smart" phone these days that doesnt have some type of data plan, which generally is only £5/m. I dont really see how you could want a "smart" phone without a data connection? With data, (4) is redundant and (2) is easily worked round. Of all of them though, I agree the crippled Bluetooth sucks! Though it is certainly not unique to WP..

        1. Vic

          > if you think about £1500 over 3/4 years on buying or subsidising phones is a lot

          I do.

          Vic.

        2. Ocular Sinister
          Joke

          Unbelievable

          I could *just* about believe alexh20 when he claimed he bought five phones in four years, but £1,500/year on phones plus an unspecified amount on a 'gaming rig' and car... AND he has a 'misses'? Pull the other one, Alex.

          Joke alert because this guy clearly is yanking our collective chains.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Futher a little digging into brother alexh20's pass posts

            "..I'm also 25, currently unemployed and living off a loan from my dad, and frequently drunk, or high, or both"

            From 10th Nov 2001

  14. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Shame Nokia....Shame.

    I have had Nokia phones since the 6150, im now on an N8 and its a fantastic phone.

    Great touchscreen, great apps, FANTASTIC camera...In fact, i would happily own another.

    Dont want fandroid (leaks data like a sieve). Dont want crapple (Just NO), Mango or whatever, too much social intergration (im an anti social bastard at the best of times) so where am i left????

    Symbian anna/belle thats where and i would like to stay thanks nokia!!!!

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      @cornz 1

      What are you left with? Have you considered buying an N9 - you can pick up imports from a few UK online stores and it's an absolutely outstanding device, best Nokia smartphone *ever* (including the latest WinPho's).

      MeeGo-Harmattan is *the* natural upgrade for a Symbian user if they want to get a more capable device while also keeping the "Nokia" feel. I have both an N950 (N9 with a keyboard) and a Lumia 800, and the latter IMHO is not something a Symbian user would feel at home with, while the former most certainly is.

      MeeGo-Harmattan has a thriving developer community, and Nokia are in the process of beta testing the latest PR1.2 updates (released Tuesday) which comes with hundreds of fixes and dozens of new features.

  15. Paul Shirley

    someday maybe they'll tell me why I might want WP7

    Elop is right to blame Nokia for not giving any leadership on promotion but totally wrong to put any blame on the floor shop staff.

    Since the launch one thing has stood out: the entire PR hierarchy have been very good at telling me why I shouldn't buy 'another OS' and very bad at telling me why I should buy WP7. From lowly astroturfer ground troops to free Lumia wielding journos&developers and even Microsoft+Nokia execs, the story has been consistently fuzzy and WP7 content free.

    But no-one stopped to consider that attacking the competition doesn't automagically drive customers to your product, with a major concentration on knocking Android, the message comes across as 'buy *anything* but Android or Apple' not 'buy WP7'. Where anything could as easily be BB or featurephone as WP7.

    Given the state of US politics maybe that negative PR will work there, it doesn't go down well in Europe and the sales reflect that. Doesn't help that the lower down drones persistently describe things I value in Android as faults, they can't even hilight the real problems properly.

  16. gaz 7
    FAIL

    Nokia have only themselves and Elop to blame....

    A lot of people I know, including me, bought and liked Nokia because of the lack of a walled garden, and needing to push everything onto the phone though a PC based client. Which by the way is completely bloody backward.

    They should have stuck with Meego/Maemo6 and released the N9 properly world wide instead of treating it like a ginger stepchild... and properly sorted the N950.

    Incidently my beloved N900 has had to go back to Nokia this week under warranty, and they have said they will be replacing with an N8 - they are not even giving or offering the bloody Windows -crap things away. Why not Nokia? Ask me I might have tried it.

    1. Shadowmanx2009
      Unhappy

      Service

      "Incidently my beloved N900 has had to go back to Nokia this week under warranty, and they have said they will be replacing with an N8 - they are not even giving or offering the bloody Windows -crap things away. Why not Nokia? Ask me I might have tried it"

      And that I think is the heart of the matter! Nokia stopped looking after their number one priority: THE CUSTOMER! By ignoring their customers, by being slow to bring to the market what it really needed, a competent well done OS; by p.....g of their existing customers with shoddy, ill thought out products, they are now reaping the results.

      It's not magic, or particularly hard for a company like Nokia, to come up with a product(s) that people actually want to buy. And, stop p.....g over their (former) customers.

    2. Vic

      > They should have stuck with Meego/Maemo6 and released the N9 properly world wide

      Yes.

      I'd have bought one.

      Vic.

      1. Manu T

        What are you waiting for? Buy that N9. Put your money where your mouth is. Then Nokia wouldn't be in this position and would have churned out Symbian and meamo/meego-devices happily ever after.

        1. Dan 55 Silver badge

          Be honest here, who's going to buy a N9 when its OS has less future than the N8's Nokia could have put Dvalik and QT on top of it and installed the Ovi Store and Maps they'd be well on the way back with something that gives them something different yet runs both Android and QT/MeeGo apps (QT apps generated with little more than simple recompile from the QT/Symbian code).

          But they didn't.

          So most people who've considered the N9 have jumped ship to Android, probably a Samsung Galaxy, and the handful of people who are geeky enough to consider the N9 because they'd like a Linux mobile OS but were annoyed by Google have already got a Galaxy and reflashed it with Cyanogen.

    3. Manu T

      Be glad that you'd get that N8. It's a fantastic device. Solid build quality, solid materials used (full metal and glass), fantastic camera, fantastic amoled screen and symbian ANNA is a great OS. It has full bluetooth transfer, syncs to outlook just fine including categories, full bluetooth transfer without needing expensive clouds orso, connect perfectly to hidden SSID's, has full multitasking, a freakingly fun FM-transmitter, manual full 2-way call recording with beep without 3rd party apps (3rd party apps allow for automatic recording and 10-sec removal) last for 2 days easily with on charge and lots more.

      In fact it has all o/t functionality of your N900 bar the keyboard and the linux-based OS. But as a developper QT isn't that difficult too.

      And it'll get better with Belle... and faster too. Without multi-core, multi-GHz cpu's and without forking out another 500 bucks for a new phone.

      Ppl should stop listening to propaganda.

  17. xenny

    sales droids aren't dumb

    windows mobile is indeed OK as an OS.

    However, selling an iPhone or Android phone is less likely to get the customer coming back a couple of days later complaining that such and such an app isn't available, or none of his mates can show him how to do something.

    The ecosystem isn't there for WinMo, so it's a somewhat risky thing for a sales person to push.

    A smartphone over two years is more expensive than a reasonable spec PC. Would you sell someone a computer running an unusual OS knowing there are hardly any applications available for it? No, you'd sell a Mac or a Windows PC.

  18. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Seen in wild?

    I'd not even heard of the Lumina before this article, let alone seen one in the wild somewhere!

  19. Anonymous Coward
    Stop

    Pretty sure

    the only owners of Windows Phones, as those that got given them by Microsoft or Nokia for either writing good things about Windows Phone in the press, or developing desirable apps.

    No consumer would be stupid enough to buy a Windows Phone, would they?

  20. Topperware

    Probably because most people are waiting for Nokia to release the 12 MP camera from the N8 combined with Windows Phone. Make that in pink and my partner will be off to buy it.

  21. Stubbs

    I've seen them!

    I've seen three people with them. Try taking public transport!

  22. MarkL
    Thumb Up

    Have to say, I totally agree that there is a retail issue going on here.

    The vast majority of smartphone buyers are just ordinary consumers, ie - not technical people. Their source of information for the best phone to buy will come from a variety of sources: what they read about, what they see on TV adverts, what they talk about with others, and their experience going to the store, and trying a few phones out, and asking for advice - it's here, in this last and final step that actual buying decisions are made, and if sales staff don't even bother to suggest trying a Windows Phone, well, it isn't really going to help Nokia turn things around.

    Nokia (and Microsoft) do need to take some of the blame though. When it comes to stuff like television advertising, short of sponsoring the whole of Channel 5 for a while there, I don't feel that I'm regularly seeing ads for Windows Phone. By contrast, I do see ads for the iPhone quite regularly, as well as HTC and Samsung's Android devices. Nokia & Microsoft need to sort this out and fast.

  23. Wang N Staines

    +2bn -> -1bn = +|3bn|

    Elop's bonus = 10% x +|3bn|

    Sorted!!!! Everyone wins.

    1. yeahyeahno

      I don't know, has anyone ever thought M$ might have placed Elop in Nokia just to get someone to produce a WindPho?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Stop

        well durr

        of course that's the plan.

        Microsoft will have bought Nokia outright by the end of the year.

        They also placed some ex-Microsoft bods in other key slots too. Head of US sales is "ex" Microsoft.

        It's all part of the long game.

      2. Manu T
        Happy

        It has nothing to do with windPho.

        M$ already makes money of every Android handset being sold from Samsung, HTC and a whole bunch of others (M$ tax). So it doesn't even matter if you prefer the SGSII over a Lumia 800. They probably make more money from that SGSII than from that WP7.x-license being sold to Nokia at heavy discount.

        What ppl don't realise is the folowing:

        1) Nokia OWNS NavTeq (a former US positioning data-collector company). M$ want their paws into NavTeq. Selling NavTeq data probably gets more revenue than selling WP7.x licenses or Nokia-symbian-handsets for that matter. Does anyone has numbers on revenue from NavTeq?

        2) Nokia holds a bunch of patents specifically from GSM-technology. If M$ gets its hands on these it'll OWN the entire european comms industry (which is based on GSM-technology). This would particularly bad for european economics/politics/whatever since M$ will have the weapons to sue everyone in Europe who'd want to use GSM technology in their (competing) phones. But it'll be a VERY good source of income indeed (without actually lifting your arse doing some physical work).

        By ruining Nokia and later acquiring the leftover at heavy discount is what M$ is going for. So to obtain a large foothold into positioning data harvesting field and GSM-technology-pattents.

        This is probably what M$ means with diversification into other markets.

  24. Wang N Staines

    MS = no blame ... they are only pushing their product.

    Nokia = blame ... for hiring that idiot Elop.

  25. Karl H
    Mushroom

    Good hardware , shame about the software

    Nokia was always great at making hardware, and whilst the hardware was simple (I'm thinking Nokia 2110, 6150 , 6210 , 6310i here ) the software was acceptable. I eventually graduated on to an E71 (after an Windoze Mobile O2-mini-s-xda ) , and was quite happy with it. It's battery life was good (something more than I can say about my current HTC desire ) , and the software bearable.

    Then I got an HTC Desire , and apart from missing the tactile keyboard of the E71 and decent battery life, the fun of all the apps and non-phone stuff , makes me really like it . I just can't see me moving from Android , since I don't want to get into Apple's walled-and-censored garden.

    There's the rub, I'm really happy with Android, if Nokia made an Android phone , their hardware was always good to me, then they could win me back when it comes time for an upgrade, but they're gambling on WinPho (what a stupid name!) , and I just can't be bothered trying it.

  26. discuss_disgust
    Thumb Up

    AA Meeting...

    'Hi - I'm John - and I have a Lumia 800...'

    I do actually have a Lumia........ and it has to be said I love it!! The device and os are both clean and simple....all in all it just works.

    On the downside it is overpriced, but then it wouldnt be comparable to an iphone if it wasn't!!

    What apps are people so attached to on iOS and android, 90% of it is dross!!?...Blipper is the only app I have wanted, found unsupported and no alternative!

  27. Bleeter
    Linux

    lolmia

    For the geeks: Wonder how many 'nokia diehards' like me, who've given up on the company due to elolp, are waiting for the non-contract price of the N9 to fall off the edge before picking up one (or two) of them.

    For the business user: What with 4G starting out here in Australia, it's a false economy upgrading to 3G devices today.

    1. Manu T

      I'd want one to. Unfortunatly Nokia has priced the N9 way out the market, therefore it won't come into Lumia teritory and make sure nobody ever buys one. That way Elop can say to his shareholdersnext year: "Told you N9 would fail. Nobody wants it while sales of Lumia 'skyrocket'. Going for Wp was indeed the best move etc..."

      Also crippling supply is another tactic to handicap sales of N9's. I'd want a 64GB-version which is nowhere to be found in my country let alone that gorgeous pearl-white one.

      Nokia is deliberatly crippling market penetration of N9 to pave the way for lumia 800. It won't work with me since WP7.x hasn't got the functionality that I require as a small self-employed businessman.

  28. garyc2011
    FAIL

    Lets all Flop with Elop

    Nokia was on a burning platform and instead of doing the logical thing and bring quality android handsets to the market in a short time frame, they enlisted Microsoft's help, who quickly arrived on the scene and doused the burning platform in petrol.

    Plus publicly executing Symbian, at the behest of Microsoft was a pretty dumb thing to do Mr Elop.

    Nokia should have went Android and Kept Meego or Symbian as a fallback.

    Android started with NOTHING, in 2008 Microsoft had 160 Carriers in 55 countries with MinMo, what is your excuse for that Elop ??

    Rip Nokia, Rip WP7

    Amen

    1. Vic

      > Nokia was on a burning platform

      I still don't believe that, however many times I read it.

      Nokia was in trouble, that much is for certain. But it was selling well, and had healthy profits. The whole "burning platform" thing is nonsense; it had a mid-term problem that needed careful management.

      Instead, they brought in Elop. And then the platforms most certainly were alight.

      Vic.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        @Vic

        Try that sentence again but substitute Blackberry.

        No-one would have thought Blackberry would be anything but selling well. Now look at them.

        The same would have been true with Nokia if they hadn't done something drastic too.

        Unfortunately they decided to ignore Android and choose a newcomer to the market with a lot of baggage.

  29. Glenn Amspaugh
    Megaphone

    He who forgets history...

    MS needs to go back to how they got the PC established: partner with a well known name (IBM) as they release a cheaper alternative system (than Apple/CP-M/ etc).

    So, how to get momentum built with WinPho? Low-cost, decent (but not great) hardware spec phones ($0 subsidized in U.S.) with cool commercials aimed at the folks likely to choose phones of this level (teens/early 20's).

    1. Paul Shirley

      variation is designed out of WP7

      ...but WP7s deliberate lack of fragmentation means this simply cant happen! (Yes, channelling one of the favourite strawman arguments against Android ;)

      Seriously, how do you build cheap WP7 devices if the minimum allowed spec BOM forces mid-range pricing? Even worse, how do you create a premium version if all you can change is the camera, screen size (but not resolution) and throw in a little more Flash and MHz.. (Mhz the fan's persistently claim aren't needed because it's already 'buttery smooth' ;)

      I understand the value in having a consistent platform but WP7 takes it too far. AFAIK there's more variation across the iPhone range than the entire WP7 market!

    2. JEDIDIAH
      Linux

      History?

      Microsoft won the last platform war by being ruthless and promising a product they didn't actually have in order to create a relationship with the reigning monopoly of the time.

      IBM was never terribly cheap. They just aren't that kind of vendor.

      That came later with attempts to clone IBM's product. Neither IBM nor Microsoft are responsible for that. Although Microsoft was in a good position to take advantage of the situation.

      There is no 800lb gorilla for them to cozy up to this time. You might be able to describe Apple in those terms but they aren't sharing. They don't have to. They aren't under a consent decree like IBM was in the early 80s.

      Monopoly smack downs (IBM/AT&T) are responsible for a good deal of the current computing landscape.

  30. This post has been deleted by its author

  31. ScissorHands
    Linux

    I got an N9. Meh to WP7

    Waited for the stock clearing after Channukwanza and got a 64GB N9 for €449 instead of €720.

    The Lumia800 reached my country this week (not a single yahoo was given).

    1. Manu T

      now that price I would have bought an N9 64Gb too.

      In Belgium a 16GB version cost € 499 (discounted from € 549 ) and the 64GB cost € 639,00 (discounted from €699). That still way to expensive for anyone to buy. To compare an iPhone 4S 16GB cost € 629.99 in that same store and a SGSII 16GB also cost € 499 (discounted from € 519). I also found a Lumia 800 16GB in that store it cost € 499.99 and a HTC radar € 345.

      That's just ridiculous for a device that you'll use for less than a year. I paid € 299 last week for my Nokia 701 8GB which compared to the above devices is a lot more affordable.

  32. Bob Vistakin
    Devil

    Going back to the Elopaclypse...

    You gotta wonder if Nokias smartphone market share would be less than the 2% it is today had they gone with Android.

  33. jonathan keith

    Who?

    I'm waiting for Samsung's new phones that run Tizen (Meego's successor) to appear. Then I'll replace my N900.

    1. Manu T

      Never a Samsung again not ever!

      I'll never buy a crapsung device again. I'm completely traumatized by their terrible after-sales service, horrible build quality (talk about crapware) and incompetent repair. Not to mention their lack of vision in product-development, ignorance in update cycles and that they always keep the better stuff in Korea. I've had it with Samsung! They can rot in Korea for all I care.

      I'd rather go for an HTC device or back to Sony(-Ericsson) than that stuff again. Although the latter ain't what it used to be in product quality (after the sturdy K700i it all went downhill too).

      Cheers

  34. dogged
    Stop

    Some thoughts

    First, on OS.

    Please ignore all the slavering nerds in every single comment above. They're stupid fanboys (of varying products) who do not have a clue what the person in the street is looking for.

    I talked to a whole bunch of my not-very-technical circle about phones recently. A farmer, an RAF mechanic, a project manager (trust me, she's my sister and she's an IT PM who hates tech and this is NORMAL which is half the reason why the industry is fucked), a builder, a mother of two small kids, a groom at a stables.

    None of them recognize anything beyond the hardware. They know what an iPhone is. Beyond that, they think in terms of hardware brands. the RAF mechanic used to have an HTC Desire (he broke it) so I said "how do you guys like Android as a phone system?"

    None of them knew what I was talking about. Matt liked "my old HTC". The farmer likes Nokia because "they don't get trashed so easily". My sister likes Samsung because Samsung make nice TVs. The stable groom has a Blackberry because she got it from her boss. The builder uses cheap-ass burners because nothing lasts long on a building site. The mother-of-two has a WP7 phone (HTC Radar) and _didn't know that was what it was_.

    This is the state of the buyers market right now. Forget Android vs WP7 vs iOS vs Badu vs Whatever. It's hardware brands and an utter lack of knowledge that are driving the sales right now.

    Beyond this bunch of nerds, the OS means absolutely nothing. So Nokia need to be selling their phones as Nokia and pushing about how great Nokia are. Microsoft means nothing in the consumer market and Google is merely a search engine, not a maker of phones.

    That is the state of play.

    1. Paul Shirley

      Doesn't fully match my conversations with friends,family & acquaintances. I don't sit and have bizarre and improbable group discussions about phones though ;)

      What I see is a bunch of non-smartphone users where perhaps 1 in 5 could tell me what brand their phone was without looking. I don't personally know anyone that chose their dumb or featurephone based on hardware brand this century, they bought the cheapest offer on the day or for the features they wanted. Or in many cases didn't buy at all, just took what they were given. To the extent brand mattered it's about which unreliable ones to avoid.

      The iPhone users I wont comment on, the BB user has no choice (and hate's it).

      Of the Android users, some seem to have strong brand loyalty to Samsung or HTC - but its clear from conversation their actual choice was a HTC Android or a Samsung Android or a Sony Ericsson Xperia Android (I jest not). My brother just asked which cheap Android phone to buy, completely brand agnostic.

      This is what Elop got very wrong, smartphone buyers seem to have brand loyalty to both the hardware AND the OS running on it. Everyone but Nokia covered that by offering multiple OS choices.

      1. dogged

        Bizarre and improbable

        I actually have to thank Barry Shitpeas for that along with a few fanbois.

        They were insisting that everyone on the street, the "silent majority" if you will, loves Android/iOS (delete as per religion) and nobody's heard of WP7.

        So I sat down in the pub with my sister, her bloke (the builder), my best friend (the farmer) his younger brother (the mechanic) his wife (mother of 2) and the mechanic's girlfriend (the stable groom) and tried to find out what they knew and what was important to them.

        It was enlightening. I recommend it.

        1. dogged

          I'd like to thank Barry and his boyfriend for the downvotes. Thanks, girls.

    2. John Sanders
      Linux

      Also consider...

      That I get asked all the time, literally 100 of times per week what phone to buy, my answer is always the same:

      on the cheap buy a low end bbry, if got money and don't care about brand and want lots of software buy android Samsung/HTC, if you're asking me if you should buy an iPhone, resounding yes, you're dying for it.

      It is US nerds working in support who tell to most of the unsuspecting population what to buy, because they know we know.

      It is the same with computers, tellys, etc.

  35. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    It would help if the WinPhones were on sale

    I needed an emergency, SIM free phone to stick my corporate SIM in, a week back (my work phone died on my the Saturday before a Sunday flight) so I went to a Carphone Warehouse with the intention of buying a cheap HTC Wildfire. Or, as I was "curious," a new HTC Radar or the cheaper of the new Lumias. Neither were in stock so I bought the Wildfire S. So, what does this iPhone fanboi think of his first Android experience? Well I think it's all a bit clunky but the Wildfire S is an awful lot of phone for the money!

    I should be a Lumia (or at the very least a WinPhone Mango) owner but only the most expensive models seem to be on sale.

  36. Nya
    Unhappy

    Dumb Salesmen

    As someone who wanted a play with a Lumia 800 recently just to see what one was like first hand the amount of grief you have to go to is simply insane.

    T-Mobile shop to quote "it's a Nokia, it's crap", eventually went searching through draws and found one, no charge in it.

    Carphone Warehouse. Lady serving said "no you don't want that" till the manager wondered by and corrected her to "it's a good phone but we don't have any in".

    Phone4u did actually have them in stock and a working demo model. Good on them. Ok the sales staff were all a bunch of total muppets. But at least I got a good play with one and a feel of the OS and phone. And I must admit it is an impressive bit of kit, and even though it is Windows, the GUI is very slick, and very fast. Actually much more responsive than a lot of the Android kit out there currently.

    But skipping what's nice, and not so nice about the phone/OS or religious fanboi swings. The issue to Nokia here isn't the phone. It's the idiots in shops selling it. Sad really you have to go through this much hassle just to trial one of the things!

    1. Manu T

      @ Nya

      Which in essence means that Elop is right. It's the workfloor that's holding back the flourishing sales of the flowe.. eh.. Lumia's.

  37. airbrush

    I would have bought an n9 on contract, just shows an utter lack of belief, come on Nokia youre still in the game!

  38. heyrick Silver badge

    Dumb salesmen?

    Let's see... It's a choice, essentially, between iThingy and Android, and you're providing a third options and complaining nobody cares? Why aren't you "one of the others (aka Android)" too?

  39. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Dumb salesmen are hurting us – Nokia CEO

    Wait, isn't Steve Ballmer a salesman?

  40. RAMChYLD
    Mushroom

    Here's a thought Elop

    How about pressing Microsoft to make Windows Phone Marketplace and XBox Live available in more areas worldwide, particularly the poorer areas of South East Asia (hint: Malaysia)? No one wants a smartphone that will not allow you to add apps to.

    1. Goat Jam

      Agree

      This is one area where apple gets it right. When they launch a product, there is pretty much equal opportunity access worldwide, at least where I live.

      Not that I was in any danger of buying a Zune, but the thing was around for years and never reached my part of the world.

      MS haven't changed a bit in this regard.

  41. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Pass the popcorn, please

    I used to have a bit of a soft spot for Nokia.

    Like eleventy billion other people, I owned one of the excellent 3210 dumb phones, 'back in the day'. Probably most Europeans of a certain age will have similarly fond memories of their long defunct Nokia bricks. So I had nothing against Nokia and no real wish to see them come a cropper —until, that is, they made the insane decision to leap off their burning platform onto the decks of the Microsoft-Titanic.

    Now I'm just watching from the sidelines, enjoying the show and waiting for iceberg and ship to meet. Hopefully with suitably pyrotechnic results.

    It's not all doom and gloom though. As the majority of comments on this subject show, we have at last found that patch of mine-free ground between the opposing trenches, where Appletards and Fandroids can enjoy the occasional friendly kick about.

  42. JLan

    from a burning platform to a sinking platform, stupid loyalty

    it is stupid to stick with MS now, given MS support multiple phone makers, why Nokia is so Loyal to MS, now that others can make both windows and android phones?

    I guess Nokia chose MS over android because:

    1. MS is subsidizing NOkia;

    2. Nokia was still in the dilution that it is the no.1 cell phone maker, and wants to differentiate it from other makers.

    3. Nokia's boss has strong personal connection with MS.

    1. Manu T

      "2. Nokia was still in the dilution that it is the no.1 cell phone maker, and wants to differentiate it from other makers."

      Actually it still is the no.1 cell phone maker. Just everybody else tries to convince them they're not and they're on a sinking ship. A major competitor even planted a mole inside Nokia to 'work them from the inside out'. That's your no.3 in the list.

      Symbian IS a fine smartphone OS as is Meego. Sure there are betters, so what? Competition makes you not rest your laurels and improve products. Nokia doesn't need to embrace another OS, they just need to improve their products and sell them properly. it's very stuypid from Nokia to ditch their online-stores (therefore creating dependency on 3rd parties to sell their products) and now complain of the 'dumb-salespersons'. Should have kept the online stores open then this would be far less a problem.

      As for supporting M$. Don't be fooled. An Android licence DO cost money especially if you want Google's apps on it PLUS you gotta pay an extra M$ tax on every handset you sell. It's probably a lot cheaper to get a discounted WP7.x licence (or as you call it ' a subsidized license'). In fact I predict that in 2012 we'll see more WP7-devices being announced than Android devices (or at least a lot more than in 2011). Especially if it doesn't matter to most ppl out there who can't tell the difference from Android to their ass.

      1. StooMonster

        It's all about the margins

        Nokia might make more phones than anyone else, but with wafer thin margins it means their earnings (profits are tiny).

        Apple have 6% market share but take 60% of profits of all handset manufacturers, whereas Nokia make 60% of handsets (not really, it's less) but take 6% of the profits of handset manufacturers (probably less, I don't have Nokia's figures to hand but you get the point).

  43. Mikel
    Devil

    The best salesmen are lazy

    It's true. If you're going to be in sales you may as well sell stuff that's a no brainer. Medicine is an obvious choice because if you need medicine and don't get it, you're going to die.

    For 10 years I trained and motivated salesmen. Never once did I tell them the best course was to try to push water uphill. The thing is great, or it isn't - and there are enough great things to sell that you need not waste your time on crap. Caring about the difference is a measure both of your moral character and your earning potential as a salesman.

  44. Phoenix50

    Quick Question...

    Do the frothing masses who have posted on this thread so far believe the mobile market should simply consist of Apple and Android, and that eventually WP7, Blackberry, Symbian, Meego, Bada, and all the others will die a death - leaving two clear choices?

    Do you believe this a realisticall-healthy position to be in?

    Please, tell me - I'm intrigued.

    1. garyc2011
      Meh

      the masses have spoken

      Do YOU believe it is healthy to effectively only have one desktop choice ??

      Due to Microsofts strong-arm tactics with PC Manufacturers I must pay a windows "Tax" on any computer/laptop I buy even though I run Linux Mint on it, I cant buy a "bare" Dell, Toshiba, Lenovo etc etc thanks to Microsoft's strong arm licencing tactics.

      Phone manufacturers and carriers are not stupid they saw what Microsoft done to the PC Manufacturers and no wonder they don't want to climb into bed with them.

      So yes I DO believe that just having Android and Apple is healthy, heck the competition between Android manufacturers alone is enough to drive healthy competition and innovation in the Mobile sector.

      Also think of this, when Microsoft DID have a market share with WinMo, why did they churn out subpar drivel, taking consumers for granted, and frankly treating them with contempt ??? I still have painful memories of my Xda Exec.....Don't want to go there again.

      1. Davidoff
        FAIL

        I must pay a windows "Tax" on any computer/laptop I buy

        "Due to Microsofts strong-arm tactics with PC Manufacturers I must pay a windows "Tax" on any computer/laptop I buy even though I run Linux Mint on it, I cant buy a "bare" Dell, Toshiba, Lenovo"

        Then maybe it's time to open your eyes and get a reality check because the truth is that there are plenty of computers available without Windows. Aside from the gazillion or so assemblers which configure any PC according to your specs, most big brand names like Dell, HP, Lenovo etc do sell computers without Windows, because that is what a big part of their business customer base buys.

        Of course some of the Windows-less offerings (especially those not aimed at business customers) may be more expensive than the ones coming with Windows, simply due to low (or zero) demand and the lack of MS subsidies.

        1. JEDIDIAH
          Linux

          You didn't really refute anything.

          > Aside from the gazillion or so assemblers which configure any PC according to your specs, most big brand names like Dell, HP, Lenovo etc do sell computers without Windows, because that is what a big part of their business customer base buys.

          Nonsense. They do no such thing. At best they may have one or two options that are not terribly appealing. Dell is great at this approach. Now claiming that the market isn't effectively dominated by one player because you can "build your own" is just absurd. That represents a vanishingly small part of the market and isn't even valid for certain classes of hardware (like laptops).

          Besides Linux, having the option of a CLEAN windows install would also be helpful.

          I just fixed up a Mini 9 that way. It's MUCH better without the crudded up Dell Windows install on there.

          1. Davidoff
            FAIL

            "Nonsense. They do no such thing. At best they may have one or two options that are not terribly appealing." Dell is great at this approach."

            That may be your impression, but then I say if you can't find any Windows-less computers then you're showing that you're just lazy. *All* big brands sell PCs and laptops without Windows. Dell for example, but of course not everything is listed on their website so you have to pick up the phone. Same with HP and Lenovo, which for every computer model have a multitude of different variants (with and without OS), aside from their BTO/CTO builds (build to customer order) which lets you spec a system according to your requirements, and that can of course exclude Windows.

            ""Now claiming that the market isn't effectively dominated by one player because you can "build your own" is just absurd. That represents a vanishingly small part of the market and isn't even valid for certain classes of hardware (like laptops)."

            Learn to read. I didn't say you have to build your own PC, and already pointed out that there is an uncountable number of assemblers who will gladly build any PC according to your specs and without Windows.

            And yes, this is also possible for laptops, which like desktop PCs are available as barebones which can be spec'd according to your requirements, and which don't include an OS if you don't want one. BTDT this regularly for nearly 15 years.

            Really, one has to be really lazy or ignorant to not see the wide variety of computers available without Windows. Of course that means doing some research and make some phone calls, as very little is advertised in the consumer area. Of course if you buy your hardware from PC World and such only then yes, you will have a hard time finding anything without Windows.

        2. t20racerman
          Linux

          I tried buying a non-Windows laptop.... and failed

          Actually, I tried very hard to buy a laptop without Windows on it. I had a small business account with Dell and had bought some good laptops from them in the past but wanted one high spec one that they sold, but without Windows as I had no intention of using it (I'm a PCLinuxOS user). Dell refused point blank. I told them I'd close my account if they wouldn't, and eventually did so. Dell absolutely refused to sell me the hardware I wanted if I didn't pay the Microsoft tax.

          I contacted HP, same story.

          Yes there are some manufacturers out there who will sell you a laptop without Windows, but not many and so your choice of hardware is very limited. Is this what you would call a level playing field?

          If Microsoft ever get dominant in the phone market (don't bet on it!!) expect the same strong-arm monopoly tactics. I personally will NEVER buy anything ever again that Microsoft are involved with.

    2. Brian Morrison
      Thumb Down

      Two horse race is bad, but...

      ...because of the economies of scale that can be had by concentrating on making larger numbers of similar or identical products the manufacturers are able to offer lower pricing which translates into increased profits for them and their customers the networks. Hence the market tends to suppress the less profitable platforms over time, irrespective of their technical appeal.

    3. Mikel
      FAIL

      Re:Quick Question

      @Phoenix50 "Do the frothing masses who have posted on this thread so far believe the mobile market should simply consist of Apple and Android, and that eventually WP7, Blackberry, Symbian, Meego, Bada, and all the others will die a death - leaving two clear choices?"

      About the others I don't care - they can live or die on their own merits. Windows Phone is special. In every place Microsoft gets traction they use it to assume control, shut down all opposition and then engage in rent-seeking behavior - halting progress at the phase they assumed control. I like progress. I like all this cool new stuff we've been getting the last couple years, and the future looks bright too now. So Microsoft can stuff it. It's not like they're even close to competetive on a tech level right now anyway.

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      As for me, I like variety. That's why I would never go for WP, since MS has always done everything they can to reduce options. But at any rate, while the choice between iOS and Android is better than nothing, I do hope for more. There's many of them with potential, wouldn't count out Blackberry, and a Bada/Tizen option sounds inviting. WP doesn't really warrant any consideration, seen enough of it to know it's utter crap.

    5. Manu T

      hee you mention Bada ;-)

      Funny how nobody complains about that. I mean there's no apps on that platform at all. Yet ppl claim it's all about apps. Bada also has some serious shorthcomings yet nobody complains here.

      Anyway back on topic.

      No it's not a healty position at all. But it won't happen just look at the market of softdrinks. there are basicly 2 or 3 corporations leading wordlwide production, one of them the renowned Coca-cola corporation. Yet the indiviual 'brands'; Fanta, sprite etc... are kept 'alive'. The same with cleaning products, Candy, even cars. Skoda, VW, Audi and Porsche are distinct brands maintained by one company to uphold the illusion of choice. Look at the french peugeot, citroen, renault and toyota, dacia and what others they are involved in.

      If Nokia ever gets bought by Microsoft then Microsoft will probably keep the Nokia brand as a distinct brand or vice versa. Just as google will do with Motorola. It'll be stupid to ditch these names, it's called brand-recognition. Because ppl would be more inclined to buy a Motorola phone than a Google phone (though Google could probably change the motorola-name to Nexus as it's smartphone brand) but that's another story.

  45. madninjaskillz
    Trollface

    Has anyone here USED a WP7?

    Reading the comments here is like watching 4chan when someone insults cats. Wow.

    I myself have been a HTC customer since the Orange SPV, moving to Google when the G1 hit. However, each generation of HTC has been worse build quality than the last. I moved to the Omnia 7 when it came out (due to the HD7 being an abortion speed wise) and the wife moved to the Nokia 800 last week (when her desire Z gave up the ghost because she made a phone call after getting out of the shower)

    android for me was an eye opener when it launched. donut was amazing. a nice breath of fresh air after using WM for so many years. and then the upgrades started. the Force closes become more and more frequent, and then, being an early adopter, I got shat on with new releases. I had a breif run in with iOS, but soon decided that i needed a phone i could use to make phone calls on.

    WP7 *IS* lacking apps. Its not as wizzy looking as a sense phone. but it works. never crashes. my 1st gen device is on the latest OS with no worries from me that itll be outdated any time soon, and most importantly, unlike google - its not a wired phone - it has a BATTERY that isnt wasted with 15 cpus to make the phone run well.

    Sure i miss some ios/android apps, but the OS is a well thought out thing and its serving me very well.

    People need to realise better specs dont mean a better device.

    1. Paul Shirley

      It was going so well but you just couldn't resist knocking iOS. Apart from antennagate I dont remember much complaint about iPhone as a voice phone and a great deal of envy over visual voicemail on it.

      Credibility pissed away in iust a few words.

      1. JEDIDIAH
        Linux

        Crap SMS.app, no good replacment possible.

        > antennagate I dont remember much complaint about iPhone as a voice phone

        I always found the inability to quickly clear my SMS messages to be terribly annoying.

        That was my main reason for dumping my iPhone for an Android. Although there are other advantages to having a more open platform.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Facepalm

      Lol - I used a Lumia for 3 weeks, but that crap is so limited I don't know how anyone can put up with it. Yes, it is ok if all you do is a bit SMS, phone calls and photos, but for that you can get a cheap feature phone.

      You can't even backup SMS easily, can't set MMS settings (you need a app that is only being distributed now and doesn't know all networks), can't organize your apps other than the basic roll of widgets in the first screen, have to do some stupid tricks to set and mp3 as ringtone, have a crappy non-replaceable battery, no sd, no usb-storage (no, tthe registry hack in windows doesn't count), no hdmi, etc. I could go on for hours with all that is missing from WP7 and WP7 phones.

      I don't see how anyone can still defend it. If you only need the basic phone functionality, get a feature phone, even the S40 series is superior. I f you need a smartphone, even a middle range android, costing little more than half the price, is superior both in hardware and software. And you won't have to use Zune or skydrive!

  46. Jay Zelos

    retail sales

    As someone who works with mobile retailers the biggist problems are poor deals for the consumer, lack of stock at the wholesalers and low commision (~high handset cost). There is no incentive for anyone to buy, for anyone to sell and no way of getting hold of them if they ever took off. Nokia spent a lot of money on advertising a phone they don't seem very keen on selling.

    1. Putonghua73
      Meh

      Incentive

      Exactly!

      Since we are using anecdotal evidence and extrapolating into statistical significance, I'd thought I'd chime in. If nothing else, than to kick Nokia when they're down. Like the US car industry (although I do not drive) I'm annoyed by the unrealised potential and arrogant complacency.

      I finally stopped using Nokia after my experiences with the E71. Solid build, good keyboard - which I do miss, although my smart-phones are predominantly touch - superb call quality and hands free (allowed me to talk to my ex-ex and do the washing-up at the same time) but sweet Jesus! The UI to navigate the 'smart' aspects. Even worse, fiddling around with internals and/or paying silly money for apps free on other devices - ok, the iPhone.

      3 months after my honeymoon with the E71 ended, my language partner showed me his iPhone. I naively asked what apps he used for reading / writing Chinese. He starred at me and replied, " None". All native in General Settings. Couple of weeks later I had sold the E71 and bought an iPhone 3G on the secondary market. Now? Been using an HTC Desire since I returned from China 15 or so months ago.

      Why? iPhone like spec, eco-system and UI (not as good as the iPhone but still good) but without iPhone type prices. So many 18-24 month contracts with good bundles and still good TCO. As others have stated, so many Android powered devices on a wide range of low/mid/high end phones. Where is the compelling reason (value proposition) to choose a Lumia?

      My anecdote? Oh right. My former house-mate knows zero about tech and her brand recognition is comparable - except with the ubiquitous iPhone. She plumped for a HTC Wildfire based on the low contract cost and oddles of bundled extras she negotiated with her telco provider. What she lacks in technical knowledge she compensates through negotiation skills. It's her first smart-phone and her experiences have been positive. She still secretly wants an iPhone but is happy for now.

      I have yet to see a Lumia in the wild (had a false positive whilst waiting for the tube to Old Street last night - the guy seemed to be a little perturbed at my interest in his non-Lumia handset and turned his body away from me) and - for my sins - have to endure 3 tube-lines and the Heathrow Connect. Lumias spotted in the wild = big, fat zero. Adverts spotted in the wild = big, fat zero. Spotted lots of Samsung adverts (the 'new' HTC) and Samsung devices in the wild.

      If it wasn't for El Reg I wouldn't know the Lumia existed! That said, I do think the Lumia 800 looks a lovely device (I'm in the minority who like the colour scheme) but cannot think of a compelling reason why I would lock myself into another contract to upgrade to one. My HTC Desire meets my needs.

      As Jay Zelos stated, it's all about the deals.

  47. Shades
    Alert

    F*ck Nokia, Microsoft, Elop, et al...

    ...Orlowski enabled comments on an article!! ;)

    1. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge
      Devil

      That's because...

      ...this article actually makes sense.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Probably forgot to turn them off.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        I assume the articles over most of the last year with comments enabled was some kind of trial run which ended unsatisfactorily for the author. This is a pity because it's usually the other way round for the readers.

  48. PaulR79
    FAIL

    Dumb salesmen? Dumb Nokia choices!

    I bought a phone (Nokia C2-02) for my mother who has problems with touchscreen phones due to a stroke limiting the use of her right hand. The phone itself is quite sleek and smart with a resistive touchscreen that is perfect for her and a numeric keypad that sliders have had for a long time. It functions well enough but has some astounding omissions that show Nokia are just clueless these days. The biggest one that may well result in the phone being sent back is that there is no option to increase the display timeout setting from its default 10 seconds. No sales rep in the world could sell this as a positive with such a basic function ignored.

    Conclusion? Nokia, you're killing yourself and blaming others for your problems. It's sad to see a once great company dying a slow and painful death.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Nokia are just clueless these days

      Don't tell me. I'm on a Nokia N8, and it's a testament of Nokia's idiocy in many areas.

      One thing is multitasking. I had Sony Ericsson Symbian phones before, first the P990i and later the P1i. Running Symbian, stuff like copy'n'paste was a breeze. I could for example copy text from a text file on the memory card and paste it into an email easily, or put the WPA keys for my WiFi network in a text file and then just copy the long key into the WiFi settings. With the N8, the UI is so crippled that copy'n'paste is only possible without using external aids (like a mouse or a keyboard) in very limited situations. The flexibility I had on my old SE phones just isn't there, even when this should be a basic thing for a 2010/2011 highend smart phone.

      Or this: when switching between profiles, the phone remembered if the radio was active or if the phone was in flight mode, so I could switch from office mode (with radio on) to silent (and radio off) with two taps. A nice feature, certainly. I guess because it's actually useful Nokia in it's idiocy decided to REMOVE it from their updated firmware (Anna).

      Then there are other problems, like (similar to your C2) the display timeout. It is adjustable, but the maximum value is 60s only (my SE phones could do 5mins), or the laggy accelerometer, or the idiotic light sensor adjusting the brightness, or the lack of a hang up button which means that to end a phone conversation several button presses may be necessary, and because the phone sometimes lags behind its user this often means some other function is unintentionally started.

      This aside, Nokia is also actively lying to it's customers by promising firmware updates and then postponing them, and a demonstrated incompetence when it comes to communicating clearly with customers, and it's no wonder pissed off customers want them to rott in hell.

      1. Manu T

        @ Anonymous Coward: Nokia are just clueless these days

        Agreed Copy and paste could be better. It's quite well implemented in iOS and android though.

        Switching profiles is dead-easy. Simply press the power button and choose (ANNA & BELLE).

        --> or you can put the clock widget (ANNA) on the homescreen which has above the date a profile-switch.

        --> or put the separate profiles widget on the home-screen (BELLE).

        Timeout value for screen/keyboard can be set from 1min upto 5mins. Screen dimming however can be set from 5sec. upto 60 secs. So are you refering to screen-dimming instead of timeout?

        Only C7 and C6 (back then) had physical call-hangup buttons. That's why I bought a C7-00. Anyway as long as you;re in a call-screen you don;t need physical buttons. Otherwise it's just a matter of menu-button and then the onscreen-hangup-key. That's merely 2 clicks (instead of one).

        I think the accelerometer is quite good. Though I usually turn it off and have a icon to manually switch screen. A good tip on ANNA & S^3 devices is to 'disable theme effects'. This will make your phone appear lot faster.

        Nokia hasn't lied (yet). regarding firmware updates. They promised PR1.2 we got PR1.2, they promised ANNA, we got ANNA. They promised BELLE and just be patient you will get BELLE. Not that I'm really waiting for it though. My C7 works very good as it is. Besides ANNA has been out a few months (fall 2011) and you are already complaining about BELLE, djeez. What are you? An anxious impatient kid who wants everything immediately after they see it? How decadent are we these days. Give them a few months time to iron all the bugs out. Besides 2 weeks after you upgraded you get accustomed to it and don't even remember how you complained that it took so long.

        1. Dan 55 Silver badge

          I am waiting for Belle, if only in the hope that e-mail polling/notification is unborked.

          Sister-in-law's got a C6, I set it up with Hotmail then her wifi stopped working. Fixed the wifi settings and the e-mail polling's stopped working. Exactly the same problem as my N8. This is the kind of bug that needs an update to sort out now, we shouldn't be waiting for months.

  49. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I heard somewhere that WP8 will not be compatible with apps from WP7, it'll be interesting to see how that pans out.

    I bought a new phone fairly recently, and I found WP7 quite nice actually, but I couldn't buy one with Android and IOS about - they're so much better supported and WP7 has no killer app which would make me buy into that platform. If it had something unique, then things might be different. And no, the UI being 'different' is not a particular selling point. You have to be able to DO SOMETHING UNIQUE with it.

  50. Bob Vistakin
    FAIL

    Watching microsoft fail with this turd is freaking hilarious!

    It's the gift that just keeps on giving. Keep on wasting all that marketing money polishing it Steve, as long as you believe you can make it shine one day we're all here enjoying your comedy antics.

  51. GrantB
    Boffin

    In the wild

    Never seen any Nokia Win7 phones in New Zealand. Even though I have visited a couple of phone resellers recently, haven't seen any Win7 phones on display ether come to think of it.

    I have seen 2 Win7 phones of some type in the wild though. Once on the bus .. but the women carrying it got on at the bus stop near the Microsoft office in Auckland, and seemed to have a MS corporate swipe card attached to her clothing.

    The other I didn't see, but an obnoxious .NET developer I have to suffer/work with on my current project sends terse emails with 'sent from Windows Phone' appended. Obviously iPhone envy. I'm told he attends pretty much every MS conference going and has technet subs, so would not surprise me if both were free from MS.

    Even if the salespeople push it, everybody carrying a cellphone and using it, demonstrates the brand far more effectively. They are like cars - other than when dictated by work, the brand of cell-phone can be a status-symbol. I know that my wife (who is not a techo, knows Android well as her non-technical friends will discuss new phones they are getting - which are all running Android). Around work (an IT company), PM's and Managers love there iPhones, while the programmers/IT guys stick to various Android devices which they discuss, swap tips/tricks and occasionally jail-break. No Win7 phones at all, which if mentioned seem to be talked about with Schadenfreude.

  52. Wunderbar1
    Thumb Up

    Obviously....

    If you have retail salespeople that are paid based on selling phones, not necessarily Windows phones, why would they go out of their way to push something that customers don't want. If they want salespeople to sell Nokia phones instead of just phones, hire Nokia salespeople... or better yet Microsoft OS salespeople. Blaming the "dumb" salespeople is just a proxy for blaming the "dumb" customers who have the audacity not to purchase Microsoft.

  53. Wunderbar1

    To answer the question, in the US, I have never seen a Microsoft OS phone anywhere. Smartphones are fashion accessories in addition to functional devices, often primarily fashion accessories. Microsoft and Nokia both are both woefully uncool. Outdated gear.

  54. Wunderbar1

    Two horse race

    The punters are not even looking at RIM or Nokia-MS. Everyone is centralizing around Android and iPhone. Very few people are flipping Android for iPhone or vice versa. They are ditching their old gear for either Android or iPhone.

  55. Dethro
    Trollface

    dont blame the sales person

    I've worked in telecommunications retail for over 4 years and yes Elop is perfectly correct in saying that if something isn't placed in the customers hands and demonstrated it wont be sold.

    Having said that as a sales person you tend to care about one thing - the customer handing over cash for something regardless of what it is. 99% of customers have never even heard of windows on a phone even if they are completely familiar with the windows brand.

    for those 99% of customers it is far easier to simply show them either an iphone, or an android device of which they have heard of through friends and family, and almost instantaneously you have closed the sale.

    As unfortunate as it is but most sales people, myself included, know that spending 5 minutes showing how great a product is, that the customer has never heard of, is simply a waste of time and will more likely than not lose you a sale, which in turn means losing commission.

    In order for Nokia to increase sales they need to massively raise awareness of their products through other channels and not rely on sales hungry, sales people.

    If the salesperson is what they truly believe to be their most valuable asset in selling their products, then they should be rewarded. Nokia has for as long as i can remember ran a program for sales staff - "Nokia Rewards" however over the past few years the rewards simply aren't worth the effort.

    Sony Erricson for example on a regular basis will run a sales staff promotion along the lines of "if you sell X handsets (usually 5-10) you get one for free" I tell you right now, no matter how bad a product is, when a promotion like that is offered you will gladly demonstrate every selling point it has to offer.

    I have watched Nokia sales crash through the floor in my time selling phones, from being the brand I sold the most, to now being the least, and it is by no means the fault of the sales people.

    I will sell to a customer whatever is easiest to sell, and Nokia handsets are by no means an easy product to sell when stacked up against the rest of the market in the general publics eyes.

    Another issue that seriously challenges current Nokia handsets are those before it. Every flagship handset Nokia has released since the N96 that i have witnessed have had a higher rate of fault returns than any other comparable handset at the time. Recently our store discovered that 63% of N8's and N9's sold through us had been returned faulty within 6 months.

    If you work in a retail environment, the last thing you want is the person bringing the product back, so when you see a handset come back that often, there is a very slim chance you will be recommending that brand to future customers.

    At the end of the day the customer will generally follow the crowd or the product with the most hype, and that is something that Nokia is significantly lacking.

  56. JOKM
    FAIL

    No Surprise

    Nokia will eventually fail, their technology R&D plan has always seemed to be management driven and never user driven. Which is fine in a feature scarce world, but the number of unusable phones models they have produced in the years because these underpowered devices were expected to do much, must be in the tens if not hundreds.

  57. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    @dogged - thanks for understanding

    @dogged, what a pleasure to hear of someone talking to a sample of normal users, and reporting it. Instead of the endless stream of techies extrapolating from their own lives, as if their issues are what really matters. If I see one more message saying X platform is crap because it doesn't have 2-way call recording, or a particular Outlook Sync, I'll.. well, just smile ruefully, as always.

    This may be a techie site, but that doesn't excuse the endless ignorance of why stuff works (or doesn't) for the mass market. Unless you spend lots of time inviting normal people to tell you things in their words, you have no idea about the phone market.

    1. Bob Vistakin
      FAIL

      Wise words indeed. So in fact the techies are all wrong and should take a look at how WP7 is doing in the actual market, rather than in some la la land of their own invention. Oh, wait...

  58. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    From the burning platform...

    ...to the sinking one.

  59. bep

    Don't forget the hardware

    When sales staff sell phones they tend to talk about the hardware, not the software. First, reliability (have they had a lot of returns for that handset - for any reason?) then the screen size, resolution, camera and so on. What exactly are sales staff going to sell the Nokia Windows phones on? Nokia have been in the habit of bringing out phones with worse specs than earlier models, they used to get away wih it, now they can't. For example, the N8 still has a much better camera than any of the later Nokias. The punters know that, and they aren't buying as a result.

  60. StooMonster
    Trollface

    In the wild

    I saw a guy with a Nokia Windows Phone 7 -- Lumia 800? -- on the escalator in the tube once. Really, I did!

    Do I win a prize?

    1. Vic

      > Do I win a prize?

      Yep.

      You get to keep that memory...

      Vic.

  61. A. Lewis

    I've never seen any roaming free.

    The only thing I've seen close to a WinPho7 marketing was a stand in Manchester station, going back a couple of years. Peppy young people were grabbing passers-by and offering them a play with some of their collection of demo handsets. This was before Nokia went in that direction though, and it was an MS promotion.

    What surprised me most was at a recent training day at Microsoft's Reading campus, WinPho7 was mentioned a couple of times by speakers, and was generally used as a point of humour, received with derisive laughter by the audience.

    Personally I think not getting the techies is a mistake for a smartphone platform. As another article on El Reg pointed out, smartphones today are pretty much portable computers. So the most, and most quickly, enthusiastic segment of the market is always going to be the geeks. If you manage to raise some enthusiasm in that area, it'll spill over a little to the general public. I know people ('civvies') have asked me before for smartphone buying tips: and I didn't recommend they get a Windows Phone.

  62. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Next Nokia

    Comes with Zune

  63. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Lumia

    Pretentious name.

    "EASIER, FASTER, FUNNER" Wtf?

    No SD. No FM transmitter. No keyboard. No torch. In other words, all the cool, handy Nokia stuff gone leaving a boring 'phone with an incredibly irritating "brand".

  64. Anonymous Coward
    FAIL

    Seen one, played with it, liked it a lot, wouldn't buy one!

    My friend has a brand new black Lumia 800 (got it for free from a business contact) and I have to say it's really nice.

    Great build quality, cool design, WinPho is really smooth, excellent workflow, nice user-friendly UI. Did I like it? I loved it! Would I switch to it from my iPhone 4? Not a chance.

    Note that I am perfectly happy to switch, I am not an apple maniac and since I won't upgrade to the iPhone 4s, I'm open to alternatives.

    But right now the options for someone buying a high-end smartphone (iPhone, android, WinPho, BB) have different value propositions:

    Apple offers a smooth experience if you're happy in their walled garden and pay a premium. OK for some (me too as long as I can jailbreak). 500K apps mean you will find something for everything, even though 99% are crap.

    Android has a lot more price points from cheap to high-end, though the user experience (and OS/UI) are a bit rougher IMO. Some minor security concerns but OK for most. 400K Apps and you can hack to your hearts content. Unlimited functionality for every pocket.

    WinPho offers a nice UI but at price points ranging from "not cheap" to "top of the line expensive", an OS under heavy development, an ecosystem that may or may not thrive, and...30K apps. So why pay similar money as for an iPhone 4s or a Galaxy S2?

    I would definitely get a Lumia 800 if it ran Android, but right now the value proposition is just not there. If they're lucky they'll survive until the ecosystem is more attractive and then they may have something to compete with. 'Till then, they're a dead duck.

    To me the Lumia 800/900 prove the colossal strategic failure at Nokia - these guys produce an excellent premium handset, then try to sell it with an immature ecosystem instead of sticking Android on it and laughing all the way to the bank. Elop is at best a joke and at worst suspect.

    Forgot to mention BB - they blazed the trail that Nokia's following. I used to own a BB Storm. 'Nuff said!

    Fail because that's what they're doing!

  65. Ninjaboy
    Angel

    I got one.... but i work in mobile comms - do i count?

    I'm in the wild, I'm a civvie, and i GOT ONE!!!!

    I took ownership proudly in November after having a play on a 'live stand' (at the now closing down Best Buy in Enfield hahahaha)

    but i work in mobile comms , so do i count as an industry insider so instantly ignored? or as someone in the know who made an informed decision...

    OMG didnt realise Nokia ownership came with an existentialist dilemma!

  66. M Gale

    I know precisely one person with a Winphone.

    ...well, it started as a Windows phone. He's flashed Ice Cream Sandwich onto it now. Keeps telling me I should root my Arc S. I keep telling him I'm happy with 2.3.4, and I'll root my phone at the same time that I ram-raid Tescos for my weekly shopping.

    Maybe in a year or so when the Galaxy Tab 7 is out of warranty, eh?

  67. Martin Harnevie

    Symbian Belle grows 4 times faster than Windows Phone 7.5

    Contrary to Elop's claims, Nokia's recent sales figures tell quite clearly that Symbian Belle grows at least 4 times faster than Windows Phone 7.5.

    As so many people suggest, he seems to have vested interest in badmouthing Symbian no matter what.

    Does the recent claims mean that Nokia's distribution network are 4 times smarter when it comes to Symbian Belle than with WP 7.5?

    I clear sighted and *OS-neutral* CEO would invest in more Symbian Belle devices since that's where Nokia's growth is.

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