"....items from the clothing site."
Let me guess, a natty line in black shirts......right?
The personal details of English Defence League supporters have been stolen in a hacking attack on its website, it was reported today. The far-right group's leadership emailed members in recent days to warn them of the breach, the Daily Telegraph reports. "As you may have become aware the English Defence League clothing site …
>EDL were formed by a football hooligan
What's your point?
The early years of Amnesty International were formed (note: not founded) by an ex-Chief of Staff of the IRA. So I guess it's just an organization for protecting the rights of terrorists:
Or possibly past associatons can't always be relied upon to predict future behaviour.
The violence at EDL demostrations , only seems to have when the Unite Against Fascism, whats even stranger , is that when the press mention who gets arrested, if its an EDL person thats noted, otherwise its just a number of arrests.
Ah well nothing like unbiased media.
"What are you saying, that Unite Against Fascism shouldn't try and get the dumb folks in the EDL to explain why they believe what they do?"
Which would be all well and good, if that was actually the UAF's message.
Except that the UAF's message appears to be: We support free speech, providing we agree with what you're saying. If we don't like it, then we would like to ban it (ref: Dick Griffin's appearance on Question Time and the furore surrounding that). And well, trying to get views that you don't agree with banned strikes me as just a little bit fascist.
The irony of this sheer hypocrisy appears to be obvious to everyone but UAF members themselves.
The UAF/BNP/EDL/ANL all just seem to be up for a ruck and are as bad as eachother in my opinion.
But nevertheless, I note with interest that nobody is able to deny the hypocrisy of a group labelling themselves "anti-fascist" calling for others views that they disagree with (whether they're racist or not is almost immaterial) to be banned.
That's a slippery slope leading towards true fascism. Goal posts and definitions can and would be moved, and before you knew it perfectly legitimate speech would be banned under the pretence of it offending someone. It's hard to deny that the BNP's views are reprehensible (I personally don't find them offensive per se, just ridiculous, and think the leaders and members of the BNP are at best a laughing stock) but the UAF is going about their "aim" in completely the wrong way. Everyone would like to see an end to racism but the UAF's methods of achieving this are just completely naiive.
By calling for the BNP and its leader's media appearances to be banned (as they have done) they simply come across as trying to declare themselves judge and jury of what people should be able to see and hear and what the general public should and shouldn't find offensive. This totally alienates them from a lot of the potential BNP voters who don't like to be told what to think, and probably gains the BNP votes in the process. And as I've said, calling for another group's views (however objectionable they are) to be BANNED just because you don't like them IS fascist in itself.
What the UAF should be doing, instead of just turning up and protesting/fighting with the EDL such that most people can barely tell the difference between them, is highlighting what the BNP's views are, and why they're ridiculous or objectionable. They'd win far more support that way. As it happens it just seems like they're trying to tell me what I should and shouldn't find offensive.
>Besides, the EDL isn't exercising free speech, it's exercising vandalism and criminal damage, it riots, there's a pretty big difference.
But you can't deny that whenever there's something anti-muslim in the news, the typical reaction seems to burn an effigy and... erm yes riot. So to be fair, there are tw*ts on both sides :)
(take the time Richard Gere snogged Shilpa Shetty or the Danish Muhammad cartoons for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_cartoons_controversy )
I remember sitting in a pub back in the 70s when there were a series of riots between the NF and the Anti Nazi League. The table just behind was full of a group of Yoooofs who were discussing which side they were going on for the next days planned riot. They were debating which side would give them the best chance of giving a few Coppers a good kicking. Politics is immaterial to some people, they just want an excuse for a fight.
I've no time for either the EDL/BNP or their leftie counterparts in the ANL, they're all the same really, all just out looking for a fight. When I were at Uni in the early 90s, I got really fed up with tossers from the Socialist Workers Riot Division causing mayhem, giving the BNP etc. loads of ammo to use against the other (peaceful) anti-fascist organisations. Should have kept those copies of Searchlight...
Democratic Republic of Germany, Democratic People's Republic of Korea, National Socialists, Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, Peoples Republic of China. Need I go on.
If a leadership feels the need to state a political or cultural belief in the title of their organisation it probably means that is what they want people to think despite the glaring inconsistencies in their actions.
Here are some snippets from the BNP's 2010 manifesto:
- The BNP will ensure that the National Health Service is used to serve British people and not used as an International Health Service.
- The BNP will reverse the budget cuts on education and prioritise this sector as vital to the rebuilding of our nation.
- The BNP will offer free university education to deserving students who have completed their period of Community Service.
- The BNP will make rail travel affordable once again by reversing the disastrous privatisation process which has grossly inflated ticket prices.
- The BNP would take some of these savings and invest them in rebuilding British industry and skills through an active protectionist policy as many other European nations already do.
- The BNP will therefore introduce legislation to ensure that a foreign acquisition of any significantly-sized British company is judged to be in the public and national interest before it can proceed.
- The BNP will oppose the privatisation of natural monopolies such as Royal Mail.
- The BNP will reinvigorate the IT sector in Britain with massive investments in technology universities.
- The BNP will institute a policy of protectionism for the local IT industry and jobs.
- The BNP will nationalise the telecoms infrastructure to enable the creation of a not-for-profit 100Mbps broadband service across the country.
To be honest, their manifesto is a bit of a handbag of unrealistic populist policies (including 200mph maglev trains). Not all of it is socialist, and some of it is sensible, but it's clear that they believe in a big, redistributive, interfering state. They favour protectionism, nationalisation, and welfare (for those who meet their definition of British), rather than free trade, privatisation, self reliance, and genuine charity.
To characterise the BNP as "far right", as if they are a little bit further along Lady Thatcher's road, is grossly misleading. They have a lot more in common with Old Labour.
It's all down to a combined attack by Commies, Eastern Europeans, Africans, Indians, Pakistanis, Students, the entire Musilm faith, Jews (just in case) etc. etc.
And has nothing to do with the coincidence that the English Defence League has no defence against invaders.
I have a head filled with snot and a raging temperature but this has made my Christmas for me.
Santa (foreign bastard that he is) has come early.
"Far-right" really doesn't mean anything. It's shorthand for "polite people don't share these views, and while we're at it why not smear the Tories, UKIP, and all for being on the right and therefore a bit like far-right-lite".
Call a spade a spade, but don't just parrot this nonsense, please.
Ah the real universe, that would be the one that exists only between your ears, I suppose? I was idly wondering who you would think of as being of the centre, since almost all mainstream political parties are right-wing in your world view, depriving you of a useful political label.
We haven't made much progress in this endeavour since you only cite Nelson Mandela - are you thinking of his early days as a hard-line Marxist or his latter period as the leader of reconciliation? - and the Dalai Lama, a bizarre choice of a pseudo-hereditary autocrat whose actual political views are somewhat opaque.
At least we've identified that Fidel Castro is to the left of your centre point, I wondered whether his recent apparent shift away from collectivism might have damaged him in your eyes. And yes, I think Castro is left-wing as ought to be obvious from my post - perhaps you need to take a reading comprehension class?
Being thought of as right wing doesn't bother me at all - you have as much idea of my political views as you do about the kremlinology of the Cuban regime - the only thing that I would find offensive is someone suggesting I might vote Leb Dim :)
To most sensible people, it would appear that the Conservatives are to the right of the Lib Dems, who are to the right of Labour. To a member of the BNP, I'm sure they all look left-wing, and to you ...
But these are pretty broad brush terms and there is a significant degree of overlap: it must be obvious that Tony Blair (to take a particularly egregious example) would sit to the right of quite a few of the Tory MPs on the left of the party. There was a good post earlier pointing out that these right/left labels were always simplistic and are becoming increasingly irrelevant.
Your problem seems to be that you stand so far off to the left that, like George Galloway or Arthur Scargill, most of the rest of the world appears to be to the right of you. That's your choice and I'm happy to defend your freedom to make it, no matter how historically illiterate it makes you look. I'm sure that Respect or the Socialist Workers Party or the CPGB(Marxist-Leninist) will welcome you with open arms.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kstH-8jwa80 (Dalai Lama vs the Pope by John Safran for those who've already seen it) before deciding that the Dalai Lama is left wing.
@ Chris Miller - Pseudo-hereditary aristocratic seems about right. I've long thought of the Dalai Lama as a sort of Tibetan Price Charles - well intentioned but in way over his head and sinking deeper because no one dares tell him his ideas are a mish-mash of half-thought out wishful thinking.
UKIP are not racists. A lot of UKIP members voted for a black man to be their leader recently.
At least one UKIP MEP has mixed race children (which BNP activists told him should be deported).
Also UKIP and the BNP have nothing in common with regards to economic policy.
Are you ignorant or just lying about people you disagree with?
"Far right" is invoked to denote extreme libertarianism - small state, deregulation, open borders but no benefits etc.
"Far right" is also invoked to denote heavy regulation (generally based on some notion of 'race'), and all the very interventionist policies of the BNP.
The term means contradictory things, ergo, it means nothing.
far right used to denote "small state, deregulation, open borders but no benefits"? In some parallel universe perhaps. Centre right is closer to what you define but absolutely no group defined as "far right" matches that description.
It may mean nothing to you, but that is simply because you have invented your own definition in order to [erroneously] prove logical fallacy and therefore claim whatever you wish.
"Far right - you keep using tha' word. I no think it meens wha' you think it meens"*
*With apologies to Mandy Patinkin
Right and Left are pretty poor descriptors now days.
When people use them they attach differing concepts depending upon their own view point.
Those who idealise the "left" believe it represents wealth redistribution, civil liberties and, fairness.
Those who idealise the "left" then in turn believe that the "right" stand for "stamping on the little guy", fascism and, injustice.
Those who idealise the "right" believe it represents self improvement, civil liberties and, fairness.
Whilst viewing the "left" as "Inspiring people to be dependent upon the state", authoritarianism and, state control.
Both try to cling to either a redistributive economy (those who earn the most pay a higher level back while those who earn the least receive additional benefits) and on the other side a view that reducing redistributive burden leads to greater growth and opportunity (somewhere like Hong Kong).
It is of course nonsense, on both sides.
The old compass is a better way of really getting to grips with these things (liberal/authoritarian and free-market/managed economy) Though it could probably do with a 3rd scale... something around traditionalism maybe.
If you look at immigration, a supporter of free market economies would be all for it as it increases the potential labour pool and adds consumers.
While a supporter of a managed economy would be against immigration as you need to find somewhere to make use of the additional man power and it means more mouths to feed.
People on the "far right" actually tend to be authoritarian left, as they believe in jobs for everyone of the correct colour (managed economy) they also tend to be strong believers in state control. State control is of course easier in a managed economy. The more GDP the state controls the more power they have over the population (as they employ more people, take a greater wedge of your earnings, possibly own your home/power supply/etc.)
Not that there are no authoritarian right, it's just more complicated, basically it only makes sense if you're rich.
Not that extreme authoritarians are blessed with much sense.
<i>"Right and Left are pretty poor descriptors now days."</i>
I agree wholeheartedly.
The history is complicated, and Rothbard's 1965 essay "Left and Right: The Prospects for Liberty" makes interesting reading.
We'd be better off avoiding these terms altogether, but we must loudly protest against suggestions (either careless or cynical) that right-wing Conservatives and libertarians are in any way supportive of fascism. On the contrary, we believe that the state should never have that kind of power.
Daniel Hannan highlighted a particularly bad case of it on Sunday:
"On Radio 5 live yesterday, David Baddiel described the Freedom Association, a libertarian campaign which, in the 1970s and 1980s, led the battle against the trade union closed shop, as being “a very, very right-wing, kind of sub-BNP, slightly posher version of the BNP organisation”."
... someone publishing the ANL membership list as well.
A few years ago I got caught in the middle of a fight between ANL and BNP thugs as I made my way home from work. This was close to Waterloo station in London, and something to do with a gig nearby featuring a skinhead band from what I understand, Take away the different badges each side wore, and you wouldn't have been able to tell the difference between them - I came close to being belted round the head by one ANL'er who accused me of being a neo-Nazi because I was wearing a leather jacket. Twat.
Did anyone ever read the book "Porno" by Irvine Welsh? One of Simon "Sick Boy's" scams involved nabbing the names and account numbers of a football fan club. The re-use of very obvious passwords/PINs were the key to the scam...well...ahem...one of the keys to the scam.
As their clothing site got hacked I just had a thought for a new Gok Wan show:
How to Look Good Racist.
HA HA HA
(I just can't see beyond the absurd world we live in that the EDL have a clothing site. Clothes about/from the EDL. Who buy's that stuff? Who is stupid enough to buy that stuff from the EDL website?)
Can people please STOP referring to this list as a membership list. Last week my workplace began receiving hate mail because I am supposed to be a member of the English Defence League. i had to look them up to find out who they are. After checking through all my accounts I eventually found a one pound paypal donation. I believe but can't be certain that this was from a support the troops button linked to a story about a poppy burning protest.
Clearly I am STUPID but I'm not a fascist. Whoever is sending out these emails. Can they pack it in before their mother finds out.
.In the meantime I shall be asking paypal for my pound and asking why they hand out shipping addresses to what appears to be a charitable donation.
do you _really_ expect us to believe that?
C'mon... Anything more than a casual google into EVERY SINGLE one of those stories has revealed it as nothing more a massively overblown bigotfest bit of propoganda - usually in the Daily Brownshirt.
You actually fell for it, then were surprised it got linked to the knuckle-draggers? Hellooooo?
"....Anything more than a casual google into EVERY SINGLE one of those stories has revealed it as nothing more a massively overblown bigotfest bit of propoganda...." I assume that Socilaist Weekly didn't get round to covering the same event that the BBC reported on then?
The PayPal story is interesting as I often click on the charitable donations for things like Help The Aged, Cancer Research, etc, but I never realised PayPal passed on any details to other organisations. Off to read the PayPal Ts&Cs.....
I'm more concerned by anti-democratic silencing of political groups, however nasty they are. I'm just as worried about the ultra-left wing fascist thugs as I am the ultra-right wing fascist thugs. One thing we shouldn't do is silence them. Get Nick Griffin on Newsnight as often as possible, the more people see how hapless he is and won't vote for them. Get the anti-capitalists on TV as well so people can see through them. But let's not persecute people for their beliefs, let's ridicule them.
Hey, lets have membership lists for all the stupid Socialist groups on Wikileaks, BNP (already there), EDL, ANL, AFL, Searchlight, other 'Anti-Fascist' and 'Animal Rights' fascists, and most of the UK Political parties, and see which idiots support them, and this farce of democracy.
I've had enough of trying to persuade any of these idiots.
The BNP and EDL do have some good points, things are being made worse by the insane Political Class, their mind corrupting Political Correctness, and other Hegelian Dialectic trickery, unfortunately their policy is to use authoritarianism and ideology to tackle the symptoms, but not tackle enough of the root causes, so don't see that they are just diversionary tools of the Political Class. The ANL, Searchlight and all the other 'Anti-Fascist' fascists are just more Political Class sponsored tools, to prevent discussion of the real issues.
Right and Left are just Socialist scale BS, it's technocratic legal theft drivel, as proven by Austrian Economics.
What we need is remedy; for us to accept responsibility for ourselves and others, stop falling for all the corporate drivel we are fed daily, and get educated on what we really have to do to be free and prosperous! TPUC has some better ideas, as does mises.org.
You have never been to any of the muslim countries you think wouldnt welcome you.
"What's so good about 'good relations' between communities?"
Its generally better to live in peace than at war all the time unless your the next Boudicca and your going to ransack Bradford in a remake of the attack on Camulodunum during Roman times.
Mind your knuckles on the steps.
They are welcoming your money(*). Go there and try to impose your customs, religion and religious laws upon them and see what would happen.
I'm not against immigrants, I am one myself,. However, I am against immigrants who refuse to integrate. If you want an example look at British expat communities. When expats stick together and live as little England they are as unwelcome as Muslim communities in England but saying the former is OK, simply thinking the latter and you are a racist.
(*)Just a thought, if I rememer rightly certain locals seem to think that Nile cruises are a form of target practice.
nothing like the old myth of imposing customs, religion and religious laws to ignite the fervent feelings amongst the great unwashed.
Sharia law isnt being imposed in the UK, if Muslims want to settle there own disputes with other muslims using religious courts thats up to them, same as jewish people have access to the Beth Din to settle there disputes.
Islam isnt being imposed on us either, you have a choice in what sky jockey you want to wail at.
Where I live the small numbers of "foreigners" are extremely well integrated and part of the community, our biggest problem is the unemployed white chavs!
The irony of you being an immigrant means your first back on the boat when the BNP/EDL take power, but dont panic, based on current voting trends it will be several thousand years away!
WTF exactly, although it's wtf are you on.
>if Muslims want to settle there own disputes with other muslims using religious courts thats up to them
Even if this goes against UK law? So called honour kiilings are one extreme. Stoning for adultery. Not allowing women to drive. It's all very well to scream live and let live but it's not that simple.
Please explain to me how it is dishonourable for a woman to choose her own partner. I am eager to be convinced that marrying outside your community deserves a death penalty imposed by your own family, bring it on and enlighten all of us because I for one can't understand it.
How many people have been stoned to death in the UK following a ruling given under sharia law?
A quick lesson in law for you, both Jews and Muslims can reach a mediated agreement under there own systems which can then, if acceptable be made legally binding under UK law with a consent order in the civil courts.
You are confusing the extremes of sharia law from other countries with the general aspects of both that and courts like the Beth Din, the bottom line is we dont have public stoning for adultery in this country and I cant recall ever hearing of any group calling for the introduction of honour killings.
In terms of driving and your other "points" we live in the UK, not Saudi Arabia. I dont understand the concept of arranged marriages but some people go for it, some dont. But the reality is none of the extremes your wailing about are being imposed on us.
Perhaps you can explain how the 4 million muslims in a population of 65 million are going to force us all into arranged marriages, public stoning and not letting women drive.
>and I cant recall ever hearing of any group calling for the introduction of honour killings.
Wake up, they are already happening whether there is an official group calling for them or not. The point is that the communities in which these are occurring should be actively doing something to change their concept of honour, not passively accepting murder.
To quote you "if Muslims want to settle there own disputes with other muslims using religious courts thats up to them". That couldn't be clearer, you could have added "within the framework of the laws of the host country" but you didn't so I have to assume you mean to ignore those and apply only the ruling of the religious court.
Now what would be the ruling of a religous court for adultery?
"They are welcoming your money(*). Go there and try to impose your customs, religion and religious laws upon them and see what would happen."
Any nation on earth will resent any external imposition of customs,religion and religous laws.Blighty did not welcome Adolf with open arms.
Given the history of imperialism and colonelism in the past this is not uncommon.
Your gloating article is appalling. At the end of the day the law has been broken. The law is there to protect everyone. It is obvious from the comments posted here that the majority of posters don't give a monkeys about the law, and are in my opinion as contemptible as the EDL or extreme muslims UAF.
thought to go and check out why the EDL was formed, rather than relying on our plainly unbiased and well informed media?
the EDL stands against muslim extremism/jihad and has people of all skin colours in its membership.
such organisations tend to attract extremists who merely wish to provoke violence.
the knuckle-draggers of "combat 18" are one group so identified.
maybe rational, informed debate will one day be thought rational.....................
Any of you astroturfers got an explanation for why your thugs trashed a Hindu temple in the Midlands last time you were here ? Why your hooligans were running around attacking anyone with the poor luck to be born brown ? Thought not.
Hooligans and thugs, nothing to do with politics or religion. It's about causing a massive stink and running around trashing peaceful neighbourhoods. When it gets right down to it chummy, I like my neighbours, I don't like racist rioters.
When a few muslims in Luton burnt poppies the EDL turned up in Portsmouth (why?) to harrass and shout abuse at our generally fairly integrated and unobtrusive muslim community outside their mosque. A 6ft poppy was also graffitied on the side of the mosque building.
Incidentally the mosque leader taking the wind out of the EDL's sails said:
"we would have been happy to have a poppy painted on the mosque - but it was graffiti, and they should have asked our permission before painting on our building." :-)
We have no history of any issues with our quite small muslim community down here and the EDL and troublemakers of their ilk are not welcome.
We are not here to discuss the rights and wrongs of hackers stealing personal data - we have pretty much already made our position clear.
What we are here to do is to mock the afflicted - we really enjoy laughing at Neanderthal racist far-right dick-cheeses who, it appears, in general haven't even got the tiniest shrivelled up micro-balls enough to stand up and admit they are members of whichever bunch of dickheads is in question.
Thank you for your time.
..but too much of a guardianista to be one of mine.
i support the EDL because i believe in a multithiest society, not the monotheistic fascism of fundamentalist islam, or any other dictatorial pixy-fest
if you value your freedom, you had better also.
otherwise you could end up getting your head sawn off in front of a live audience.
so, which fairy do you worship?
who do you hate/wish death upon because they grovell to a different fairy?
the EDL are, if any thing, left of centre, welcoming people of all colours and religeous beliefs, so long as that does not include the promotion of violence and repression.
there are hindus, muslims, pagans and christians in our ranks, how does that make us racist?
why do you mix up race and religeon?
perhaps you need to get a hobby.
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