back to article Apple threatens Java with death on the Mac

Apple has "deprecated" Java on Mac OS X, meaning it will pay even less attention to upkeep of the platform, and it may kill the platform entirely on a future version of its operating system. Many seem to think this is minor news. But if Steve Jobs is booting Java from the Mac, he's also booting Java developers, including all …

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  1. semprance

    The lock out continues

    This hostility towards java was fairly inevitable really. So the lock-in continues. It's a pity because a lot of good portable software is written in Java, I hope it doesn't deter Apple users from using it.

    On another note: does the deprecation of Java on Mac actually affect Android developers? I understand that Android apps are coded in Java (or some Java-like language), but I would have thought that the Android SDK would include it's own java implementation with it's interpreter/compiler/whatever.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Pint

      Hmm?

      To be correct, I think the phrase is "assumed hostility". If there isn't much return on running Java natively and people have options (via VMware, Parallels) to run a good JVM on the Mac, then who cares? Apple gets to free up developers.

      I worked at Sun on Java systems. It was handy to have the JVM, but nothing I couldn't have done just as well on a VM.

      BTW, the software just isn't that portable, from what I've seen.

    2. Steve Loughran
      FAIL

      More complex than that

      Dalvik has its own VM -not a Java VM, and cross-compiled Java libraries from Apache Harmony. But to develop Android code you'd just use eclipse or IDEA to code it, the IDE or Apache Ant or Maven to build it, and you can debug your stuff on your desktop. It's when you want to run it on the phone that you take the java binary files and convert them to the dalvik format.

      What Apple says here is: we don't want you java developers using our laptops. Well, in the corporate world, windows desktops rule, and there's always Linux. But it means that Apple are telling everyone who may even think about writing an Android app that they should avoid getting a Mac, as they are not welcome.

      I can see the economic sense of this, but think it is wrong. I do own a mac at home, write my open source Java code on it, and will never get another mac now. Ubuntu it is.

      1. Matthew Barker
        Pint

        Get a VM

        You only need to run Ubuntu on a VM and you can still get the cool hardware.

    3. dave 93
      Thumb Up

      Not so much about lock in - more, Larry Ellison out methinks

      Since acquiring Sun, Oracle has started to flex it's Java IP muscles. Android is a notable target of lawsuits. Apple is just saying that Larry can take Java and stick it in his Oracle.

      1. paulf Silver badge
        WTF?

        Re: Not so much about lock in - more, Larry Ellison out methinks

        >>Since acquiring Sun, Oracle has started to flex it's Java IP muscles. Android is a notable target of lawsuits. Apple is just saying that Larry can take Java and stick it in his Oracle.<<

        That doesn't make sense. I always thought Larry and His Steveness were the best of mates?

    4. DrXym Silver badge

      Some fallout for Android

      Apple never really gave two figs for the JVM. It was always pretty shocking quality, always a version or two behind the official JVM. So in one sense it is not surprising to hear it is officially deprecated.

      That said, there are plenty of apps which use JVM. Industrial strength apps like Eclipse for example. Eclipse is the development environment which most Android devs would use in order to develop apps so if Java were absent from OS X they wouldn't be bothered to develop there.

      Of course what will probably happen is the OpenJDK will fill the hole instead. Ultimately OS X might actually get proper tier 1 support for Java rather than the half assed implementation its gotten so far.

      1. The Other Steve
        Coffee/keyboard

        Industrial strength apps like Eclipse ?

        Thanks for that, haven't laughed so much in weeks. Industrial strenghth, chortle.

  2. Tommy Pock

    And here it starts.

    The wall will get ever higher, the garden ever smaller.

    Where once there was an untamed, wild, glorious, dangerous wilderness, now you're safe. Safe in your tiny, safe little garden. Eating your apple.

    1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

      Eating your apple.

      In corporatist America, Apple eats you!

      1. BorkedAgain
        Coffee/keyboard

        @Trevor

        U owe me 1 keyboard, you magnificently funny bastard... :D

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Stop

      RE: And here it starts.

      ...and yet only this week El Reg placed Adobe software and Java as the two things most likely to result in a compromised computer.

      So if Jobs does decide to get rid of Java (and he probably won't) then that will result in one less security problem for him to have to think about.

      (and there's nothing to stop someone other than Apple porting Java onto OSX anyway)

    3. paul-s
      Gates Horns

      You what?

      It's no different to MS's stance - do they do their own Java port? No, they've actively excluded Java for years. Big whoop, Java lives on.

      1. ThomH

        @paul-s

        It's come out subsequent to this article, but that's Jobs' line. Specifically:

        "Sun (now Oracle) supplies Java for all other platforms. They have their own release schedules, which are almost always different than ours, so the Java we ship is always a version behind. This may not be the best way to do it."

        Not only is Apple hoping to offload the task, but it's showing the closest it gets to contrition.

        Realistically, you can see how Sun would go out of their way to ensure continuity of Java on Windows but Oracle might not care about OS X. So I think there is a real risk here.

      2. Barracoder
        Flame

        Lives on. Like a zombie.

        No support on Windows. No support on OS/X. Pretty soon all that codswallop about Java's portability will finally come true because the only platform it will be on is Android.

        1. This post has been deleted by a moderator

      3. ambrose

        It is different in effect

        Both MS Windows and Apple are closed products. But, to be fair to Microsoft, Windows is more open to third-party software than Apple is. There are no obstacles to supplying a Java environment that will run on Windows, and anybody can get the technical information about the Windows API needed to develop it. Apple makes life a bit more difficult for third-party developers who don't want to be part of Apple's walled garden.

    4. Azymov

      That Is Disgusting And Disturbing

      (Kidding! But I couldn't pass up the opportunity to imply such train of thought. LOL.)

      I don't see the reason why anyone would be upset by Apple's announcement. From a different perspective, Apple is simply announcing to the world that they are adamant about not following the crowd, about 'Thinking Different'--insisting and thus essentially guaranteeing they'll remain small--just like they did when they announced, 'Flash is over.

      Personally, I'm ecstatic--Apple's present ideology allows the space Linux and BSD needs to continue growing and remain relevant, perhaps one day becoming a true major player as a common end-user OS option.

      To put it in perspective, imagine if Microsoft were to suddenly announce they will no longer support--or allow--Java or Flash in future releases of Windows.

      I would like for all the Apple fan boys to now stop crying about this nonissue concerning Apple.

  3. This post has been deleted by a moderator

  4. Ef'd
    Thumb Up

    I'm glad Apple is doing this

    Apple's Java implementation has always felt half-assed to me. Withdrawing it means someone with more resources to devote to a mac port - say, for example, Oracle - will pick up the slack and keep it in line with the Windows and Linux versions.

    Oh, and I don't particularly care for Java anyway.

    1. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge
      Alert

      Larry only picks up the slack...

      ...if a 15 million dollar yacht is attached on the far end of the howser.

      Where is that shoot-yourself-in-the-foot icon?

    2. This post has been deleted by its author

  5. januschr

    Banking and Public Services

    Here is a pretty serious area where this is going to hit: in Denmark Mac users would be potentially locked out of all on-line banking services and on-line access to public services since these use a common authentication service developed in Java.

    1. sniper

      Freed by Jobs...

      In Austria we also forced to install Java for Netbanking at certain banks.

      Freed from Java by Steve Jobs. How ironic would that be.

    2. sola

      Mac users should migrate to a better supported platform

      Here in Hungary, you need desktop Java for filling out the Forms for signed electronic forms for tax correspondance and such (ABEVJava). And businesses cannot send a lot of forms in paper, only in electronic form.

      I guess that means bye-bye for Mac with a lot of people here.

      Also, if you are an Azureus user (video torrents) you can forget you Mac too in the future.

    3. Tim C

      live auctions

      I buy at antiques (etc) auctions and at least one of the major live bidding systems runs on Java. I can update my 6 month old Apple Imac all day long, but the bidding software still won't work. Something to do with applets failing to load.. So I will have to buy a windows machine. Bang goes the budget for an Ipad.

  6. Nya
    Grenade

    Nooooo!!

    MINECRAFT!!!!

  7. justanotheruser

    I'm not worried yet

    I'll save concern until we hear that Oracle will not support OS X as a platform. I can't find more up-to-date details but one article citing statistics from December 2009 shows OS X having five times the share of Linux. If they're willing to maintain a JVM for Linux it seems reasonable to assume they'd support one for OS X.

    If Oracle decided to not support OS X then I suppose it would be time to consider what my next OS is to be.

    1. Greg J Preece

      Amongst developers?

      "I can't find more up-to-date details but one article citing statistics from December 2009 shows OS X having five times the share of Linux."

      Amongst developers, or everybody? Because in the Java dev world, almost everyone I know runs Linux.

      Though it will be two laptops for one of our team, who recently got a Mac so he could do some iPhone stuff, but still codes Java with the rest of us. Good ol' Apple. Less functionality is better for you. Diversity is bad. Be the same as the rest. Jooiiinn uuussss....

      1. JonHendry

        Linux in a VM

        Developers could do their Java development on a Mac by using Linux in a VM.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Jobs Horns

          Well...

          FWIW, the Java source code is available on Oracle's website. Any enterprising hobbyist could download it, tweak it and compile it for OS X over the weekend by targeting X11 for graphics and BSD sockets for networking. Mac OS X is POSIX compliant, so tweaking can be kept minimal. Sure, it may need the X11 app now, but then, better than nothing. I've seen developers port an entire Linux kernel module over to Mac OS X as a kext, so this isn't too far out.

          Or maybe the better will happen, Apple will commit all the changes it made to it's version of Java back to Oracle, and Oracle will start releasing JVMs for Mac. After all, many Oracle and IBM enterprise apps require the Java VM.

        2. Basic

          @Linux in a VM

          While you're completely right, doesn't this miss the point?

          Why get OS A to run a VM for OS B? why not just get OS B and lose the overhead?

          1. Azymov

            Because...

            ..It's obvious that disguised Apple fan boys will miss the pretiness of OS X. (At this point, I'm hard pressed to think there is any rationale for them to be 'up at arms', considering the innumerable OS options in the LINUX universe (not to mention BSD, of which I'm particularly fond of).

      2. martin burns
        Stop

        Representative Sample?

        Riiiiiight, so 'people you know' is the entire Java dec community. Must be a smaller community than I'd thought.

        All the Java developers *I* know (I have 30 of them working for me, plus can see another 30 from where I sit) run RAD/RSA mostly on Windows. A few run it on a Windows VDI on OSX and a few run it directly on OSX.

        Can't see any Linux users from here, which is a shame.

        1. Greg J Preece

          You've missed my point

          JAU was quoting stats showing OSX having a much larger market share, but I was making the point that that might be amongst the consumer sector, not necessarily Java developers. The devs I know are just an example to go with it.

          And yeah, all Linux baby. For most mainstream development it's just plain better, though I will admit that modern Windows systems are much improved.

    2. cschwarzfischer

      I am worried.

      First, they discarded Java 1.5 on Snow Lepoard, so development tools, people actually payed for, won't run anymore without major hacking around in System directories.

      Now, they basically cease to support Java altogether.

      If another company, i.e. Oracle wants to continue providing a JVM for the Mac, they'll have to go through all the pain of getting the GUI libraries to actually work on Mac OS. Again.

      The last time this took years to finally make (most) applications work (more-or-less) without broken menus, weird dialogs with text labels not fitting into them etc etc.

      I find this an incredibly arrogant and stupid move alienating people who have to work with Java (even if they don't really want to) but prefer working on the Mac.

      Maybe nobody actually told them that people like me really exist... those who dare to develop in Obj-C and *gasp* use Java IDEs for other parts of projects.

      If you want to develop with WebObjects, you'll use Eclipse which needs Java. I really wonder what the people at Apple who work on the AppStore are going to use.

      The AppStore runs on Webobjects. In Java. Not iMagicServerThingy...

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Open Source

      As the article pointed out the problem with developing for Mac OS as opposed to Linux is that the OS's GUI system is closed source and proprietary making it extremely hard for Oracle to interface with it to provide a JVM.

      1. The Other Steve
        FAIL

        @Open Source

        "the problem with developing for Mac OS as opposed to Linux is that the OS's GUI system is closed source and proprietary making it extremely hard for Oracle to interface with it to provide a JVM."

        Only if Oracle are retards. The API is open enough. Oracle can just go get a copy of Xcode and set to work on a new VM if they want to.

        If lacking the source to things made it "extremely hard" to program against them, there'd be no software except FOSS, and outside the febrile imaginations of a few wackaloons, that's just not the case.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: The Other Stever @Open Source

          "Only if Oracle are retards. The API is open enough. Oracle can just go get a copy of Xcode and set to work on a new VM if they want to."

          Like how the API was open enough for Adobe to enable hardware acceleration in Flash?

          Thought so.

      2. Jean-Luc Silver badge
        Thumb Down

        Hmmm... I smell bs here

        Case you don't know Eclipse runs fine on OSX. And still in case you don't know, it uses SWT, not the holy Oracle Swing as its GUI subsystem. So apparently someone managed to solve the Java SWT GUI stuff all by themselves. Surely Oracle can port Swing.

        Really, I don't care that Apple walks away from the porting Java. As long as it doesn't interfere with anyone else porting Java. That's pretty much what Java is up to on Windows as well, not like M$ is porting Java anymore. Folks get it from Oracle.

        Now, if Apple was to ban Java from OSX then I would walk from OSX. Not that I like Java, I don't. But it is useful and am much less tolerant of a closed ecosystem on a personal computer than I am for consumer electronics like iPad and iPhones.

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Unhappy

      Servers

      Oracle support Java on linux as its the classic server deployment, which is where their money comes from. They would only support it on OS/X if they believed that client-side java had a future. Outside of Java developers and some important applications (bittorrent clients, Low Orbit Ion Cannon), it's not that obviously important. I don't know about the enterprise though -my one is stuck in IE-only web sites rather than java applications: I don't know which is worse.

    5. streaky Silver badge
      Linux

      Worried

      "willing to maintain a JVM for Linux it seems reasonable to assume they'd support one for OS X"

      Which is based on the assumption that OSX's libs aren't a catastrophic mess, which everybody involved in Open Source knows they are.

      It'll be expensive for them to do this, which begs the inevitable value for money question.

      But I'm not worried either, I don't use OSX.

      1. ThomH

        Playing the same game as streaky...

        This isn't a problem for because everybody involved in Open Source knows that it isn't. The original story was rubbish because everybody involved in Open Source knows that it is.

        Admittedly I've gone a bit further there, by assigning two extreme and fabricated opinions (both false, by the way) to group think rather than just one. But that's the sort of thing you can do when unevidenced bare assertions are acceptable provided vague reference to a thinly defined group is attached.

    6. Vinod Raghavan

      Comparisons with Linux

      For those trying to compare linux with OS-X, it is an invalid comparison. There are far more server based linux platforms in corporates that require java, therefore they need to support it. It is not really fro those who use linux as a desktop platform.

  8. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

    Apple:

    Giving you exactly what we tell you that you want, every single day...

    1. Anonymous Coward
      FAIL

      How that Microsoft JVM coming along?

      Oh...

      1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

        @AC

        What are you talking about? When did Microsoft come into this? On a Windows or Linux system I get my JVM directly from Oracle. Works like a charm. On an Android system there are some wonky workarounds, 99.9%+ of the code for any standard java app I have worked on ports lovlingly and easily.

        Only now, my customers using Macs can’t use the Java software they need to send us orders. This upsets these customers, who rely on us to print their orders (there aren’t a lot of other choices in this segment of the industry in our country.) It also upsets us, because we now have to either migrate our customers away from Mac (which I will be doing with a /vengeance/ now,) or supplying them with an alternate system on which to enter their orders.

        Lovely.

        I don’t see where at all Microsoft enters into this. The MS JVM died ages ago. This is about no longer being able to run critical Java applications on OSX.

        1. ThomH

          @Trevor_Pott

          What Mac users can't use Java software? All shipping versions of OS X contain Java. The article speculates that OS X v10.7 may ship without Java but notes that Apple have instead made it explicitly possible to install your own.

          OS X has a BSD-sourced POSIX layer and ships with an X11 window manager. The supplied compiler remains GCC, at least while Clang can't parse C++.

          This means that customers using Macs will not be able to use Java software as soon as it stops being possible to build it using GCC for a POSIX OS with X11. When do you expect that to happen?

          1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

            @ThomH

            There are considerable difficulties in implmenting the OpenJVM under OSX. As to existing customers, they can use Java...for now. 8 months from now...12? Development moves on, and it takes advantages of new features as well as works around bugs in previous versions. 90%+ of our customer base is Windows. The developer who writes the Java software we are dependant upon keeps that software up to date such that when a new version of Java comes out, they are ready.

            If Macs are stuck on the last shipped version (6u20) then they are buggered. 8 Months from now, they most likely won’t be able to use our application because it will be coded for a much newer version.

            As to trying to walk people through installing the OpenJVM…forget it. It would cost us less to simply supply a separate physical system to our customers. They are not “savvy” folk. It’s why they chose Macs in the first place. They are quite simply /not/ going to be compiling anything from anywhere…and to walk them through it would be huge support dollars.

            Moreover, that is suddenly asking us to pay for the development company in question to support three JVMs: The Oracle standard, the OpenJVM on OSX and Davlik. It is enough that we are paying to get the app repackaged for Android…we’re not about to spend that money again on Mac users.

            Java on Macs is done. What exists will rapidly be out of date and the costs of supporting the OpenJVM will simply be too high.

            1. ThomH

              @Trevor

              You seem to be arguing that if Apple strip Java from OS X (very likely), while it remains possible for someone else to build Java for OS X (which it will), but nobody supplies a binary for OS X, then there'll be a problem. And not just for you, but for lots of very big companies and projects for which Java is a part they wouldn't want to lose, like Eclipse, OpenOffice, Firefox, etc.

              What exactly do you think the probability of that is? In the US, the Mac is 20% of consumer purchases and 10% of all computer purchases. I strongly suspect that either Oracle or some trustworthy third party will supply a simple Java binary installer. Exactly the same as on Windows, where — at the absolute worst — your customers presumably manage to install two pieces of software instead of one to use your one.

        2. streaky Silver badge
          Alert

          Microsoft

          "The MS JVM died ages ago"

          I think that's his point Trevor, though the relevance question still comes up, there was never real Java support on windows - even when Microsoft cared it was a catastrophic failure to the degree nobody actually relied on it so Sun HAD to for fear of Java dying there and then.

          End of the day it's easier to write a JVM for windows than it is to do one for OSX for reasons I've outlined in another post. In short you can talk to Microsoft, Apple.. not so much.

          Steve Jobs still makes me laugh every time Apple come up with a cunning plan, for the record.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Joke

            I have a cunning plan......

            Is it more cunning than a cunning fox who recently became professor of cunning at Cambridge University?

            If only real life ended in Steve Jobs getting a good solid clip round the ear!

        3. Anonymous Coward
          Thumb Down

          Hang On, Trev...

          So you start off with a troll, someone trolls back, and **you** get all antsy and upset? Microsoft enter this because their own JVM was deprecated too, and we didn't see these same statements. Their own JVM was as hopeless a shower as the Apple one is too. And because you trolled!!!

          "(which I will be doing with a /vengeance/ now,)" Why, how very 'Jobsian' of you. "Can't use our software on your system? Use a different platform." Brilliant! Based on this reaction, I'm glad I'm not one of your customers. I get the impression that you'll be doing this out of spite because someone dared to troll back. You see *If* you actually knew what you were talking about (ditto Cade...) you'd know that this was *actually* started in 2004 when Cocoa binding for Java were deprecated in Tiger. On the 'not knowing what you are talking about' track, have a look at http://landonf.bikemonkey.org/static/soylatte/ If, as you suggest, your customers are having as many problems as you suggest, and your really did care, the 5 minutes Googling would have found you this, which it seems would solve your customer 'problem' straight away. As it is now, one of the top hit's is you. trolling.

          1. Basic
            FAIL

            @AC FAIL

            I don't use Macs and have no real stake here but I believe the point Trev was making is that asking his end-users to download and install anything (let alone compile stuff) is going to result in a lot more issues around end-user support.

            Do you think the average Mac user (the non-techie type) would understand this:

            --------------

            Due to bugs in 10.4's compiler, building the sources currently requires a Mac OS X 10.5 machine.

            OpenMotif is the only required dependency. I installed OpenMotif using MacPorts -- if you install it using Fink, or manually, you must modify the ALT_MOTIF_DIR build setting.

            The following additional make options are available:

            * BSD_OVERRIDE_ARCH: Set to amd64 to build the 64-bit JVM

            * DARWIN_SDK: Set to target a specific Mac OS X SDK

            To target Tiger, set the MACOSX_DEPLOYMENT_TARGET environmental variable to "10.4", and pass DARWIN_SDK=/Developer/SDKs/MacOSX10.4u.sdk as a make flag.

            --------------

            I can't see how he's wrong - Esp. considering a lot of Mac users do pick the platform because they don't /have/ to know about that sort of stuff. If they wanted to play with binaries and compilers, they would've picked Linux :)

          2. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

            I don't start off with a troll

            I start off with an /ANGRY/. The Microsoft issue is completely irrelevant to this scenario. Microsoft put out a COMPETING JVM. That meant there was an official JVM in existance for that platform! You could always simply download the better JVM and install it. In this case there isn't. There isn't an announced plan to provide an orderly transition, no work with Oracle to ensure that they can and will produce a JVM to fill the gap, no mention of releasing the extant code so others can take up the challenge...nothing.

            I don’t care about open source versus closed source, this company versus that. I don’t give an owl’s hoot if Apple, Oracle, Microsoft or the hobo down the street’s company are the ones to provide what is required so long as it bloody works. This isn’t about ideology. It is about making something “just work.”

            Isn’t that Apple’s specialty? Where’s the arm waving greatness of his high mightiness The Jobs when it comes to actually providing for the end users and the organisations those end users interact with? In the case of this Java bit: nowhere to be seen. I don’t care if it is /possible/ that someone else develop a JVM for Mac. Apple took over development of their own JVM and they made a damned good one. Then it suddenly goes away with no formal announcement and no plans in place to pass the torch?

            If you think I have no right to be very upset about that, well…that’s your problem. This directly affects me and more importantly it directly affects my customers. This is a decision that Jobs made which shoves the pointy end directly into the eye of regular Joes like me. Unlike fanbois I have no blinders nor any presence in the reality distortion field. I just have to support the damned things…and now I have to get all my customers to abandon the platform.

            I am not amused.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              No, you trolled.

              DON'T SHOUT TREVOR! IT'S RUDE!

              "The Microsoft issue is completely irrelevant to this scenario. Microsoft put out a COMPETING JVM" OK. Let's put this into a context that you might be able to understand. Microsoft put out a competing JVM to Sun's, right? Right. Microsoft stopped developing their version, 'cause it was shit and Sun sued them *because* it was so shit. In the mean time * nobody* had produced a JVM for Apple's OS. So you are pissed at Apple because Sun didn't write a VM for the Mac?

              "This isn’t about ideology. It is about making something “just work.”" - "Where’s the arm waving greatness of his high mightiness The Jobs when it comes to actually providing for the end users and the organisations those end users interact with?" Oh do behave.

              1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

                Pissed at Apple because...

                If Apple had never produced a JVM I would not have cared. Their users would never have gotten deeply reliant on Java-based applications, instead continuing down the well trodden path of past Mac users: having to own a PC to get the real work done. Instead, Apple introduced support for java...then pulled it. Anyone in the meantime who gained Mac user customers for a Java application now has to find a way to support those folks.

                Apple users will never believe or accept that Apple has abandoned them, or can ever do anything wrong. That means that in the minds of Mac users, anyone who is using Java to provide functionality will now be bad/wrong/evil/whatever. Had Jobs simply left Java alone...Mac users would never have gotten a taste of being able to use these tools on their systems. They would have maintained a separate PC and that would be that. Instead, because it "used to work just fine on my Mac," the company providing the java software will now have to provide the alternate software (or hardware) at their own expense.

                If you aren't committed to supporting a feature, don't introduce it. I don't care which company you are. All this shows me is how little Apple cares about anyone, once they have their money. If Apple wants to even begin to make good on this, they'll hand their code over to Oracle. The reason Oracle (and Sun before them) don't have an Apple JVM is because Ape have closed graphics APIs they won't share. You know: the sort of shit MS pulled before getting spanked for monopolistic practices.

                As to behaving and shouting…NO I WILL NOT BEHAVE. AND I”LL SHOUT IF’N I WANT TO. I’m pissed; as much at the baying sheeple that follow in the shadow of their soulless uncaring capitalistic overlord as I am at the man and the company themselves. I’m deeply sorry if I hold companies to not only the finely-detailed legalese letter of their propaganda but the spirit of it as well.

                If you base your entire image an marketing campaigns on the premise of sucking in the stupid and the gullible using ideas such as “it will just work” then you had damned well better deliver. You go ahead and try to justify or rationalise this move however you want. What I see is my customers receiving reduced long-term functionality via lack of support simply so that jobs can further tighten the noose on competition. I see my company and my customers being screwed so some rich man can make another bent copper.

                AS much as I blame the greedy corporatists involved for this…I blame the fanbois far more. If it wasn’t for your drum-banging and your incessant wide-eyed mewing at everyone that would listen about how great and easy to use Macs are then the gullible would never have been sucked in. They wouldn’t be in positions of very soon not being able to run critical software their businesses require. They would have bought themselves a PC for work uses, and none of their would ever have been an issue.

                So – fanboy – I have only one request. I don’t even care how rude it is: GET LOST. Haven’t your kind done enough damage already? Stay away from me, and stay away from my customers.

                After all…we need computers that ACTUALLY “just work.”

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  FAIL

                  Trev, old son; it clearly takes one to know one...

                  For a start, the majority of Apple users aren't "deeply reliant on Java-based applications", you myopic dick! No amount of screaming and shouting, or in your case pointless capitalised hyperbole and verbiage, about it will change the facts. Resorting to calling someone a fanboy because you disagree is a dick move. Prick.

                  1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

                    @AnotherNetNarcissist

                    "The majority of Apple users aren't "deeply reliant on Java-based applications""?!?

                    Why should everyone be beholden to "the majority of users?" You do realise that the extension of this logic is simply to remove everything from the computer except a browser, e-mail and an office package? I mean after all, these are the only things that "the majority of users" are deeply reliant on.

                    In the case of my specific cluster of Mac users, they /are/ deeply reliant on java-based applications. Shockingly enough, they are the only ones I care about. I couldn't give a right-angled twist about "the majority of users."

                    As to the fanboy bit, I can "fanboy" on anyone who would defend an indefensible move by a company. Apple botched this. There was a right way to do it, and a wrong way. They chose the wrong way. I don't care if you are Microsoft, Google, Oracle or Bob's Deli and Meat Shop. When you pull something you have supported for a long time, you give adequate warning that such is occurring and you put the minimal amount of effort in to ensure your customers have a means to obtain a usable alternative.

                    In this case, Apple should have publically announced the deprecation along with a release of code either to the community or an official passing of the torch (and code) to Oracle. Full bloody stop.

                    Nothing else in my mind would have been a remotely adequate way to deal with the deprecation of a technology that regular (non-geek) end users are reliant on. If you want to try to tell me either that regular end-users are supposed to go read the release notes on bloody everything to detect little deprecation notices or that they should be expected to go grab/compile an open source JVM and then PRAY their apps run on the incomplete version then /you/ can go twist.

                    That is a bunch of nerd-centric “you should heave a licence to be allowed to drive on the information superhiway” crap that I will have no part of. Computers exist to make our lives easier. Apple have built an entire company on the promise of the easiest to use computers of them all. (They “just work!”) They have in this instanced failed their users and no amount of name calling is going to convince me otherwise.

                    1. Anonymous Coward
                      Anonymous Coward

                      OK then...

                      Java/Microsoft fanboy...

                      "Why should everyone be beholden to "the majority of users?" You do realise that the extension of this logic is simply to remove everything from the computer except a browser, e-mail and an office package? I mean after all, these are the only things that "the majority of users" are deeply reliant on." Bull. Shit. To take just the first part of your lengthy an ultimately pointless missive, you are being self contradictory. Plain and simple. Why should everyone be beholden to a minority, and it is realistically small than the group that just *use* computers and have *little* need for Java, because they are prissy little prima-donnas that whine and moan that doing something about it! You want Java on the Mac platform in the future? Join the OpenJava community and fix it! If you cannot find or make the time to make it work, it's obviously not *that* important.

                      As for name calling/fanboy. You are being you a being self contradictory again, which it the only consistent part of your argument! You typically resort to your passive-aggressive level, calling someone a fanboy, which IMNSHO is the same as calling someone a prick. Resorting to that to try and prov your point is a dick move! And here you are pontificating! Hypocrite. You are no different from Job's

                      1. Sarah Bee (Written by Reg staff)

                        Re: OK then...

                        Break it up now, boys.

  9. Sean Baggaley 1
    WTF?

    Oh no!

    "A hardware manufacturer that just happens to treat software as a mere component has decided not to piss away any more money on a niche project that their target *CONSUMER* market couldn't give an ant's fart about! We're all DOOMED! The entire IT industry is DOOMED! The entire IT industry's pet hamster is DOOMED!"

    Seriously? Is the dumping of a *custom, in-house* JVM implementation on a platform no effing business uses *really* worth a two-page article?

    Apple have never made any secret of their design philosophy or market focus. Why is this even "news"?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      FAIL

      To get the programs that the *CONSUMER* market demands

      you need developers. Lots of these developers use Java as it's (pretty much) platform agnostic, so you can write code once and it can then be run on Windows, Linux, OSX and a billion other weird and wonderful systems.

      So they're getting rid of something that makes coding for the Mac a lot easier and so makes the development of OSX versions of software less likely (or at least less likely to be done properly) because the devs haven't got time to write two versions and check them all.

      They're getting rid of something that customers need for a lot of on-line banking and other complex web-apps.

      They're getting rid of something that'll inconvenience both of the people who use OSX for a proper job- a lot of internal company programs are written in Java (because it's cross-platform).

      For Linux users this wouldn't be a problem- they can just go grab the JVM source and recompile it. They're used to that.

      For Windows, a passing programmer would compile the code for them and give them a nicely packaged .exe file. They can handle that- they're used to having to install things and used to having to hunt them down, too.

      For OSX, Apple are increasingly putting themselves forwards as God- provider of all software, defender of your systems and Lord Protector of your data. If they suddenly start saying "Well, yes our Mac App Store is great- but you need to search about online for this" then it really tarnishes their image. Mac Users can probably handle this now- perhaps- but will find it harder and harder as time goes on and they get more and more used to installing stuff using the Mac App Store.

      Isn't this sort of thing what collapsed Apple in the 80s/90s? Being a PITA to develop for, being expensive and being hugely locked down and limited when windows was much easier to develop for and "free"-er?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Thumb Down

        Flawed logic there, AC...

        ""So they're getting rid of something that makes coding for the Mac a lot easier and so makes the development of OSX versions of software less likely (or at least less likely to be done properly) because the devs haven't got time to write two versions and check them all.""

        You do realise that OS X currently is one of two or three OS's available that come with Java pre-installed?

        ""They're getting rid of something that customers need for a lot of on-line banking and other complex web-apps.""

        Won't you think of the children!!! (Part 1): What do Windows, or Linux for that matter, users ***that don't have a Java VM installed*** do? That's right! They install Java! Others have mentioned that it's 'too hard' to properly implement OpenJRE on the Mac (surely not for all you L33T hax0rs?!), but that's bollocks. The chap behind the SoyLatte project doesn't seem to think it's too hard.

        ""They're getting rid of something that'll inconvenience both of the people who use OSX for a proper job- a lot of internal company programs are written in Java (because it's cross-platform).""

        Won't you think of the children!!! (Part 2): See "Won't you think of the children!!! (Part 1)", above.

        ""For Linux users this wouldn't be a problem- they can just go grab the JVM source and recompile it. They're used to that."" Erm, so why can't a Mac user do exactly the same?

        ""For Windows, a passing programmer would compile the code for them and give them a nicely packaged .exe file. They can handle that- they're used to having to install things and used to having to hunt them down, too.""

        How delightfully patronising of you!

    2. Code Monkey

      And this is THE REGISTER

      Which is read by DEVELOPERS and other IT PROFESSIONALS who might have A BIT MORE INTEREST in the matter than your average CONSUMER.

      I'm off for a lie down after all that MORONIC CAPITALISATION

  10. Dan 55 Silver badge
    Thumb Down

    And Flash on Macs has gone too

    It's not pre-installed on the latest MacBook Air (although it can be installed by the user) and it probably won't be installed on future Macs.

    As for Java, if Apple haven't handed over the code to their JVM to Oracle then Oracle might not bother to develop a Mac version from scratch or if they do the UI will probably look terrible.

    And at the same time he's setting up a Mac App Store with restrictions to what languages software can be developed in. At the moment it complements the current ways of distributing software to Macs, but I don't think he'll be happy to stop there.

    If Jobs wants to make the Mac a proprietary system that needs a lot of effort to develop for and exchange data with other operating systems as it was in the 90s then he's going the right way about it. I was there and it wasn't pretty, while it might be consumer friendly he'll be stuck in a dead end when fashion moves on and he'll have burnt his bridges.

    1. JonHendry

      No installed Flash, no unpatched Flash security holes

      "It's not pre-installed on the latest MacBook Air (although it can be installed by the user) and it probably won't be installed on future Macs."

      Then the customer won't get a new computer that has an old version of Flash installed that might have a security hole that has been recently patched.

      Everybody wins. Apple doesn't have to deal with it. The user isn't exposed to that source of security flaws. Adobe gets a visitor to their website who will be exposed to whatever marketing Adobe wants to present to them.

    2. Penti

      Already gone since long time

      Oh huh? Apple deprecated the Java-Cocoa bridge along time ago, people have been using third party alternative, i.e. open source. Like rococoa. And yes OpenJDK is available for OS X, but it's not perfect yet. And is probably a pain to build. Who codes Swing apps with Apples tools any way? I know Eclipse uses it but I'm sure they will solve it. You haven't been able to use java from apples tools in a real long time. Besides why would they be without, Without Java, Eclipse, RCP etc they would be without IBM's Lotus Notes client and so on too. Most enterprise apps that is. But that's not anything they need to worry about till 10.7 any way. Looks like they will give it up to OpenJDK ports to make it run though, but they only needs to release their own code in GPL to speed it up. But of course they can also be stupid.

      Oracle would also loose out not developing the JVM for OS X, as would IBM both developers of the JVM basically, with their backing of NetBeans and Eclipse IDE respectively. But yes Jobs is wrong about Oracle/Sun being the ones releasing Java everywhere, there's plenty of licensees other then Apple of Hotspot, like IBM, Oracle before the acquisition and lots of others too. But why include Python, Perl, Ruby an not Java? Just sound like they want less to do.

    3. Tim Almond
      Go

      Proprietary Macs

      "If Jobs wants to make the Mac a proprietary system that needs a lot of effort to develop for and exchange data with other operating systems as it was in the 90s then he's going the right way about it."

      It's funny really. I'm sure he started building machines with BSD because of the stability, but he doesn't realise how many people jumped on OSX because of its core. I know guys who have Macs simply because it's a UNIX box which can run a LAMP stack/Django etc, but can also use stuff like Linux doesn't have (DVD playback, Photoshop etc). Annoy those developers and they'll probably just get a Windows 7 machine and run Linux in a VM.

      Jobs just doesn't seem to get "open". He seems to assume that he can boss developers around and they'll just follow him. The result of his petty vendetta against non-ObjC applications was actually that a lot of developers started looking at Android instead.

    4. ThomH

      Restrictions on languages?

      It would be odd to put restrictions on languages on the Mac App Store (for which the licence is not yet available, so you're speculating) given that there are none on the iPhone App Store. If your view of a company is formed by memorising all the stories that say things you don't like and ignoring the ones that say things you do like, it's not surprising you end up with a poor opinion of the company.

      To me, factual grounds of complaint would seem to revolve primarily around the approval process and the cost of entry. Stating things that aren't true makes an extraordinarily unconvincing argument.

      1. Dan 55 Silver badge
        FAIL

        See icon

        Suggest you go and find the link on pastebin which has the a copy of Apple's developer agreement for the Mac App Store. It's being linked to fairly widely.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        The iPhone app store does restrict languages

        By banning Flash and Java VMs they have effectively banned these languages.

  11. goron59

    Desktop Java is my day job...

    ... but I'm not bothered by this. I'll either carry on using the existing Java 6 on the Mac, or use a VM.

    Java on the desktop is rapidly dying anyway, and Android will disappear as fast as it arrived.

    1. HollyHopDrive
      Linux

      Sorry to disappoint...

      Are you *really* suggesting that Android, backed essentially by the big pockets of Google, not to mention samsung, htc, motorola and anybody who's trying to make smart phone alternative to the iphone or a ipad rip off tablet is going to disappear as quickly as it came. Yes right, of course, that's why all the analysts are saying how Android is going to overtake apple in the smart phone market. Both iphone and android will both compete (along with RIM), and as long as they do, the smartphone market will be exciting and keep getting better. But clearly you are a iphone user who can't see that and thinks that everybody should just by an iphone.

      It will be a shame to see java go from the mac. Its important to me as an android developer. I love my macbook pro, but jobs is clearly loosing the plot, wanting to make machines for the simple folk so they 'dont get all confused' (not to mention anything he can do to help destroy java [which oracle appear to be doing a good job of on their own] which in turn would threaten android). Its such a shame, apple, who you can't deny have innovated and changed the smartphone, tablet, and to a much lesser extent, laptop market have got a bit big for their boots lately.

      I guess I won't be upgrading to Lion when it comes, and I also guess my next laptop won't be made by apple, as much as love the quality and the style, if it doesn't run eclipse its no use to me.

      My last laptop was ubuntu (as is my current netbook) and I guess my next laptop will now be ubuntu too.

      Penguin because thats where I'm heading....

      1. dave 93
        WTF?

        You can run Windows or Linux natively on a MacBook

        So you can keep the quality and style of the hardware, but lose the quality and style of MacOS X - when you doing your Java thing, at least.

    2. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

      "Android will disappear as fast as it arrived."

      HAH! Android will likely stick around as the viable alternative to Apple for quite some time...

    3. sola
      Thumb Down

      This is just plain silly

      Java is not going anywhere until there is a similar, industrial-strength, well supported cross-platform alternative to it. And the boatload of free or commercial libraries for it.

      I don't see any of such a toolkit.

    4. JaitcH

      Android will disappear as fast as it arrived.

      Words from from a certifiable sycophant.

  12. J 3
    Jobs Horns

    Well...

    Sure the mainstream software world or whatever will not miss Java much on the Mac. But the scientific world, at least in bioinformatics... Well, quite a different story, at least for software relying on a graphical interface. Scientists develop their own stuff and distribute it. And a lot of scientists use Macs as desktops or laptops (just look at any scientific conference or meeting, it's much more common than among the general population). We don't have the budget, much less the time, to develop platform-specific stuff. Java has this advantage of being cross-platform with not too much hassle, at least, if you do it right.

    I have one little program written in Java that runs perfectly the same on Mac, Windows, and Linux. I'm not going to rewrite it in another language (which I'll have to learn) just because of this. If in the future someone who uses it complains that their Mac is not running it anymore... I'll tell them to send the email to Steve Jobs instead. Or find someone who can get Java to work on the Mac.

    1. Steve Loughran

      Good point

      -It is also the main language that computing students are taught worldwide. I'm not going to argue the merits of that, but don't see objective C taking over. I'd rather they learned Scala, but well, that won't run on OS/X without a JVM either.

      Here apple are saying "We don't want any CS students to use our laptops". Nice.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        There is a reason it's the main language taught in schools

        It's still the #1 language in programmer job listings. Java has become ubiquitous and invisible so people think they don't use it. But in fact much of the web would cease to work if Java suddenly disappeared overnight.

    2. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

      @J3

      We have a java-based client for our customers to submit orders to us. Millions of dollars a year depend on that client, hundreds of thousands of which come from customers using Macs. So yeah, irritating customers? You bet!

      I am at this moment downloading both Froyo x86 for testing as well as getting some smarttop ARM devices in on order. Java will work fine on Android with minimal recoding. It will probably be cheaper to give our few hundred Mac customers a small Android device on which to do their ordering than it will be to negotiate with the third-party developer to recode for objective-C.

      @Apple:

      Screw you Apple. With a lacquered bus. I was willing to overlook a lot of the walled garden tactics for a very long time. I was willing to support Mac customers and friends, respecting their “lifestyle choice” in the same way I was taught to be tolerant of anyone who exhibited non-mainstream differences.

      No more.

      I am not a widely influential man, but you have earned one more enemy this day. I will be putting the full force of my professional* efforts into educating individuals about exactly why they should not be choosing a platform that does not in turn offer them choice. You have made my life for at least the next several years unbelievably difficult with this one asinine decision.

      I hope it haunts you.

      *Note: professional efforts as a sysadmin. I believe wholeheartedly in objectivity as a writer, unless explicitly stated otherwise in the body of the article. As a sysadmin and as an individual however: game on.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        @Trevor

        Random question: Is your name really Trevor or is it Steve?

        You sound much like one of my canadian colleagues!

        1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

          @Anonymous Coward

          Last time I checked my birth certificate it was Trevor Pott. Though I am Canadian...

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        @Trevor_Pott: Wow.

        Just wow. Overreacting much? I hope you spouted this much bile in Microsoft's direction when they stopped producing their own implementation of Java. I cannot see any evidence *anywhere* suggesting that Apple are directly dropping support for Java, just Cade's agenda riddled "Java death" and "Job's stole my toys" hyperbole. The article takes two pages to say that Apple are deprecating *their* implementation of Java in a bid to stop Android development. The key paragraph in the article is (emphasis added): "This means that the **Apple-produced** runtime will not be maintained at the same level..." So, be pissed at Sun/Oracle for not writing a Mac version.

        "It will probably be cheaper to give our few hundred Mac customers a small Android device on which to do their ordering than it will be to negotiate with the third-party developer to recode for objective-C." That depends entirely on the Oracle suit against Google.

        1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

          @AnotherNetNarcissist

          Actually, I do have a few choice words for Microsoft's abandonment of their own JVM. While in many cases it was a good thing (because there was a reference implementation that had /ALWAYS/ been available to move to /IMMEDIATELY/) there are still - to this day - applications which we are dependant on that can only use the MS JVM.

          This means supporting systems using unpatchable software until we can find a developer to replace these apps. (The original developers having gone under.) Trust me, if I could find the prat who made that decision and lock him in a room there'd be more than a few choice words for them.

          What should be noted however, is that the vast majority of customers weren't so affected. The Microsoft JVM existed SIDE BY SIDE with the reference implementation. This is simply not true of the Apple situation. So here we have something where Java goes away on the Mac, and no formal passing of the torch to someone willing to pick it up is occurring.

          That just won't do.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            @Trevor_Pott: Wow, Part 2.

            How in this or any other universe is it Apples fault that Sun never produced a reference implementation for the Mac?! Apple, I imagine, implemented Java **because** Sun wouldn't (I doubt that they couldn't). so its no stretch of reasoning to imagine that if they wanted to try and be competitive they had to do it themselves. Obviously Apple believe this is no longer the case. My point is that you are aiming your vitriol in the wrong direction. Sun, and now Oracle, produce the JRE and JDK for Linux Windows and (obviously) Solaris, so why should Apple have to write their own implementation? Canonical clearly don't. Red Hat clearly don't - none of the Linux distro developers do. Microsoft don't either. I'm not defending Apple's approach here either, they could absolutely be more open and engaging, but Apple will always be Apple - **nothing has changed**. Like I said, complain to Oracle; they are now ultimately responsible for where and how Java is implemented, just ask Google!

            The 'not formal passing of the torch...' bit is pure speculation on your part too, Apple *actually* haven't indicated what they are going to do about it yet.

            1. Tony Smith, Editor, Reg Hardware (Written by Reg staff)

              Re: @Trevor_Pott: Wow, Part 2.

              Just because Apple is no longer doing Java for Mac OS X, it doesn't mean someone else can't instead.

              The real test is whether there's sufficient interest in Java on the Mac for any third-party, Oracle or otherwise, to do so.

              1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

                @AnotherNetNarcissist && @Tony Smith

                The issue is the closed graphics APIs. IF Apple hand over their code to Oracle so that they may carry on...then I am 100% okay with Apple ceasing support. TO expect Oracle to have to start this from scratch without access to the under-the-hood bits that the Apple JVM uses is madness.

                Is Apple even a big enough market for Oracle to set about reproducing all that code? If they didn’t have to fight through all the hidden crap and/or try to make it work only with what is visible…probably. If they are reliant on trying to essentially duplicate what Apple have already done – but without the kind of under-the-hood access that Apple have – well…would you invest those kind of resources for less than 10% global share?

                There’s a right way to do this sort of thing and there is a wrong way. I don’t care if Apple don’t want to support the JVM. That’s a business decision I can understand and even get behind. That said however, Apple are in a position of power over millions of users who are functionally dependant upon them. It is in my mind incumbent upon Apple to either release the code to the community or hand it over (likely with some strings attached) to a torch-bearer such as Oracle.

                Deprecating Java off the stack without formal announcement and a passing of the torch is simply abandoning your users. If you honestly believe that the obligations a vendor like Apple has to its customers ends the instant money changes hands then we have some very deeply different life philosophies. In my world-view Apple sells continual support and the concept of the system “just working” as part and parcel of the hook they use to lure in customers. That carries with it the responsibility to follow through with support and customer-focused management of situations exactly like this one.

                Doing the right thing while still absolving themselves of the responsibility for supporting Java is not remotely outside of Apple’s capabilities. It wouldn’t even cost them that much. (Scan the code for third-party copywritten bits and release to community or hand off to Oracle.) The only two explanations I can see for Apple’s actions are

                A) This is a move to limit competition via a medium-term plan to remove Java from the Apple platform.

                B) Apple’s customers mean so little to them that they simply aren’t worth the minimal effort to do right by them.

                I don’t really care for either reason, however either or both would be perfectly consistent with Apple’s previous actions.

                Thus my anger at this whole situation.

                As to “not passing the torch being pure speculation,” well…Apple is certainly free to make an announcement and put everyone’s mind at ease in this matter. Until then, there is simply no reason to assume they will do the right thing. There are plenty of reasons to assume they won’t. IN fact, the right thing would have been to make an announcement before formally deprecating Java, including a passing of the torch at the time. It is – to me – merely one more indication of how little that company values their customers.

                I am sorry if that ruffles feathers, but I really do hold companies – and individuals – to high standards. I have no time for greed or naked self-interest. If you commit to something then you follow through. That includes customer support.

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  @Trevor_Pott

                  "The issue is the closed graphics APIs." You, like many others I suspect, missed Apple'ds deprecation of the Cocoa Java bridge over 5 years ago. It was announced in the release notes for Tiger. Cocoa Java bridge? That'll be the 'close' graphics API'.

                  "TO expect Oracle to have to start this from scratch without access to the under-the-hood bits that the Apple JVM uses is madness." Why? I'd argue the opposite.

                  "Is Apple even a big enough market for Oracle to set about reproducing all that code?" I'd argue that if Linux is big enough, OS X is certainly big enough.

                  "If they are reliant on trying to essentially duplicate what Apple have already done – but without the kind of under-the-hood access that Apple have – well…would you invest those kind of resources for less than 10% global share?" That's an emotional strawman and it's not worthy of you. You cannot argue that Oracle are under no obligation to develop a JVM for OS X from scratch and then say:

                  "That said however, Apple are in a position of power over millions of users who are functionally dependant upon them. It is in my mind incumbent upon Apple to either release the code to the community or hand it over (likely with some strings attached) to a torch-bearer such as Oracle."

                  It smack of double standards. The way that I (and I'm sure a few others) see it is that Oracle are the custodians of Java. It is up to them to ensure it runs on other platforms. If they aren't prepared to support an Open JVM or build an official JVM for the Mac, then it's their problem, not Apple's. Apple are not, as you suggest, beholden to their customers to provide a runtime for someone else's product, however you try and spin it! Apple are no longer supply OS X with Flash pre-installed for the same reason that they have deprecated Java.

                  "Deprecating Java off the stack without formal announcement and a passing of the torch is simply abandoning your users." No. Not exactly. It's abandoning **your** users. No formal announcement on the future of Java has been announced and you are making some gross assumptions.

                  "If you honestly believe that the obligations a vendor like Apple has to its customers ends the instant money changes hands then we have some very deeply different life philosophies." This is another emotive strawman. The obligation is with the company that maintains Java, and that company is now Oracle. **If** Oracle can produce a JVM for Windows (**more** closed than OS X, with Microsoft possibly being more hostile toward Oracle in business terms) and they produce a JVM for Linux, then they should be responsible for a JVM on the Mac. It's not Apple's product to maintain. Simple as that.

                  "In my world-view Apple sells continual support and the concept of the system “just working” as part and parcel of the hook they use to lure in customers. That carries with it the responsibility to follow through with support and customer-focused management of situations exactly like this one." Sorry, but that's rubbish. Are Microsoft not under **exactly** the same obligation? Moreover, surely the maintainer of Java are obliged to make sure that Java runs on platform that their customers want it to?

                  "Doing the right thing while still absolving themselves of the responsibility for supporting Java is not remotely outside of Apple’s capabilities. It wouldn’t even cost them that much. (Scan the code for third-party copywritten bits and release to community or hand off to Oracle.) The only two explanations I can see for Apple’s actions are

                  A) This is a move to limit competition via a medium-term plan to remove Java from the Apple platform.

                  B) Apple’s customers mean so little to them that they simply aren’t worth the minimal effort to do right by them.

                  I don’t really care for either reason, however either or both would be perfectly consistent with Apple’s previous actions." The right thing? Oracle to come forward and announce their intentions for the Java platform on the Mac first.

                  "As to “not passing the torch being pure speculation,” well…Apple is certainly free to make an announcement and put everyone’s mind at ease in this matter." Again, the ball is **Oracle's** court, not Apple's.However you try and spin it (and there is an awful lot of spin) it is Oracle's product to support, not Apple's.

                  "Until then, there is simply no reason to assume they will do the right thing. There are plenty of reasons to assume they won’t. IN fact, the right thing would have been to make an announcement before formally deprecating Java, including a passing of the torch at the time. It is – to me – merely one more indication of how little that company values their customers." Can't agree with any of that. Surely the announcement that they are deprecating Java **in the next release** (not expected for release for about a year BTW) is plenty of notice? you seem desperate to jump on Apple's case about something and this has presented you with the opportunity.

                  "I am sorry if that ruffles feathers, but I really do hold companies – and individuals – to high standards. I have no time for greed or naked self-interest. If you commit to something then you follow through. That includes customer support." Java users are Oracle's customers not Apple's. Finally, the "I have no time for greed or **naked self-interest**" comment. With you on the greed, but business is business, the aim of which is to make more money than your competitor. The naked slf interest bit, did't you say that this would cause **you** headaches with your customers? how is this any different?

                  1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

                    @AnotherNetNarcissist

                    This is getting WAY to long of a thread. Let me cut the replied down here.

                    You said:

                    Java users are Oracle's customers not Apple's. Finally, the "I have no time for greed or **naked self-interest**" comment. With you on the greed, but business is business, the aim of which is to make more money than your competitor. The naked slf interest bit, did't you say that this would cause **you** headaches with your customers? how is this any different?

                    My Response:

                    Bull. Java users are customers of whomever makes their JVM. They aren’t Oracle’s “customers’ unless they are using an Oracle product! As to the naked self interest bit…I am angry at Apple because this will cause me headaches, yes. I am MORE angry at Apple because it will affect APPLE’S CUTOMERS – some of whom are also my customers – generally decent people who don’t deserve to get shat on by corporate power games so already rich people can nick another bent copper. Indeed, as much of a headache as this creates for me, it large is in my own best interests. There is now Yet Another Reason to keep me employed! Helping our Mac customers transition off the Macintosh platform will keep me busy for the next eight months at least.

                    It doesn’t mean I think it’s fair, or right. Apple have done their customers a disservice. Your argument with me rests entirely on “these people are Oracle’s responsibility.” If you honestly believe that, don’t bother responding to this comment again. They aren’t. Apple sold them the computer. Apple promised them everything they wanted would “just work.” When they bought the computer Java worked just fine. In no way was the customer ever exposed to “Sun” or “Oracle.” The customer interaction was 100% with Apple – it was the company they bought from and the company they put their trust in.

                    That trust was obviously misplaced.

                    1. Anonymous Coward
                      FAIL

                      Who the hell do you think you are?!

                      You really are a passive-aggressive, arrogant prick.

                      "Java users are customers of whomever makes their JVM" No. Java users are customers of the developers that used Java, who are by extension customers of Oracle.

                      "I am MORE angry at Apple because it will affect APPLE’S CUTOMERS" How altruistic of you.

                      "If you honestly believe that, don’t bother responding to this comment again" You sanctimonious, patronising prick. tell you what in the future, keep your opinions to yourself, that way, no-one will ever challenge you and you can continue your journey through life under the misapprehension that you opinions actually count for anything.

                      "They aren’t. Apple sold them the computer." They sold them an OS too. You'd have a point *if* Apple advertised that their computer was the greatest ever at running Java. As it is, they don't, and haven't been pushing Java for OVER FIVE YEARS.

                      "Apple promised them everything they wanted would “just work.”" Sanctimonious strawman. JAVA WILL CONTINUE TO WORK FOR *AT LEAST* 11 MONTHS ON THE MAC PLATFORM.

                      "That trust was obviously misplaced." ODFO you melodramatic prat.

                      1. Sarah Bee (Written by Reg staff)

                        Re: Who the hell do you think you are?!

                        OK. You're done now. I'm stopping this scrap. You can have it elsewhere.

      3. sola
        Thumb Up

        Agreed

        This is the proper response to Apple's silly behaviour.

    3. Michael H.F. Wilkinson Silver badge

      Same at our uni

      Some people have been trying to get me to order a MacBook, and convert to OS-X. No way now. Many courses are taught in Java, many students (a market segment Apple was winning over increasingly) will be seriously upset if Java is no longer supported.

      Steve Jobs will probably respond that they should get a life. More likely, they will get Ubuntu.

  13. Maliciously Crafted Packet
    Unhappy

    Cut your nose off to spite your face

    Whilst I understand SJ's desire to obstruct Android development and thus freeing the smart phone platform from a re-run of the integration and security hell of the 90's, this is a step too far.

    There are tons of niche OS X apps used in academia and enterprise that rely on java. Heck even the Apple owned FileMaker uses java to administer its server platform.

    Talk about cutting your nose off to spite your face. Emotionally it may feel like the right thing to do, but think about it a bit more and you know it's wrong.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      WTF?

      ROTFLMFAO!

      "Whilst I understand SJ's desire to obstruct Android development and thus freeing the smart phone platform from a re-run of the integration and security hell of the 90's,"

      Seriously, you need to seek some psychiatric help.

  14. Sir Bumgeather

    Wow.

    So this would kill games like Minecraft and RuneScape on OS?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Joke

      Don't laugh

      that's about the peak of the gaming market on OSX!

  15. ArmanX
    FAIL

    I don't like java... but this is a stupid move, even for Apple.

    I code in Java, sometimes, but I don't really like it, mostly because it's far too easy to build gaping holes and horrible memory leaks into your code, just because the JVM of the moment has some bug or another in it.

    That being said, Java still runs a lot of stuff; most corporate programs I've seen run on Java, and a lot of open source stuff. And as mentioned, many developers use Java on their Macs.

    Walled garden is one thing, but intentionally spiting a decent number of your own loyal users is a pretty bad idea. At this rate, Mac won't have Flash by next year, and that's bound to upset even more people...

  16. Kevin McMurtrie Silver badge
    Jobs Horns

    Screw developers

    I've seen MacOS become popular in corporate environments because it is an excellent Java development system. It elegantly bridges the gap between the corporate Microsoft world and the Solaris/Linux server world. I can think of several major companies that will be MacOS-free once Java is no longer maintained. That's a lot of software developers and IT staff losing interest in Apple systems.

  17. Anonymous Coward
    Linux

    Java Devs = iPhone devs?

    Wonder if anyone out there has any stats as to how many iPhone apps were written by Java devs in their spare time (and not just the fart apps).

  18. Gareth

    Big deal for PHP developers too - Eclipse, Aptana, Netbeans...

    Eclipse, Aptana, Netbeans, etc are all Java-based. This is a big deal for PHP developers.

  19. Pat 3
    Thumb Down

    Well..

    That's the last company I worked for screwed then. Java devs on mac pros. Only a few hundred grand apple won't be getting every few years then...

  20. Tom Maddox Silver badge
    Jobs Halo

    For once, I agree with Apple

    Please start with killing Java post-haste. I wince whenever I see the JVM fire up on any system because I know I'm about to be presented with some fugly, godawful half-assed POS that I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. Java has never lived up to its promises, and it remains an albatross around the neck of end-user experience. Kill it, so that something good and worthwhile can rise up and take its place!

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Why is it

      Everyone thinks it is the language that is the issue and we should do a complete change? In IT it seems almost every problem there seems people with the idea a completely new system will solve all problems.

      coders write bad applications, change the language/environment/methodology and you'll find just as many bad coders writing as many bad applications

    2. sola
      Thumb Down

      For you, perhaps not

      "Please start with killing Java post-haste. I wince whenever I see the JVM fire up on any system because I know I'm about to be presented with some fugly, godawful half-assed POS that I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. Java has never lived up to its promises, and it remains an albatross around the neck of end-user experience. Kill it, so that something good and worthwhile can rise up and take its place!"

      For most of the people that actually use Java applications, Java has lived up to the promises.

    3. Daniel B.
      Boffin

      iTroll?

      You haven't used Java on Mac, then. Most of the complaints of the UI looking fugly don't apply to Apple's implementation, and most of the "slow-ass Java" reputation is from really old versions.

  21. Anonymous Coward
    Troll

    But it's not all bad!

    "I cannot overstate what catastrophe this is," says one coder." If the future of Java on Mac is in doubt, then I have no other choice than going the Linux way... "

  22. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Microsoft used to do this too

    Block the competition through either blocking development or making it so badly implemented that you chuck the crap out and try something else - remember J++?

    Microsoft even learned a lesson: when they started offering Virtual platforms, the first OS they put efforts into making work was Linux. The point being, "hey, so you want to use Linux but worried about losing your windows licenses huh? Go ahead and setup Microsoft 2003 server and our VirtualPC platform!"

  23. Anomalous Cowherd Silver badge

    Spitting tacks

    After a pretty poor start, OS X Java has been a very good implementation for the last few years - we develop on it full time across the company as our primary platform, and we've had good support from the Apple JVM team with bug reports.

    If that weren't the case, given Job's bloody-mindedness on this I could almost understand this. Hell, I even get the "no flash on the iPhone" decision, as Flash is a POS and slows everthing to a crawl. But killing Java now would be putting the axe in a mature, stable and heavily used product. It makes about as much sense as Linux dropping libc.

    As for consumer-facing apps, you're largely right that Java isn't that visible. But it's still the number one skill on the dev market - and I'm hiring more Java devs that use OS X as their platform of choice, and I'm getting a marked increase in customers running it too.

    To sum up, if true, this is the most ass-backwards idea Apple have floated since I bought my first Mac.

  24. This post has been deleted by its author

  25. CanadianMacFan

    Not thrilled about this move Steve

    One of my favourite applications, FreeMind, requires Java. I won't be upgrading to Lion if you aren't going to let me run it. I hate having to run a VM just for a particular application. Leaving it open takes up a bunch of resources. Starting up a VM wastes time.

    I'm not going to complain about how iOS is so closed. It's always been that way. But I will look somewhere else for my hardware and software if OS X moves towards iOS. And I'm sure that many others will do the same.

  26. Anonymous Coward
    FAIL

    Java is dying anyway

    Java is on the way out. It'll soon be just a scripting language that Oracle uses to write its sh1tty installers. Nothing else.

    Good riddance. No-one cares.

    1. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge
      Pint

      Thus speaketh Dogbert the Consultant

      and then he went home.

    2. Eddie 4

      Java is dying

      Hmmm, try accessing your bank details w/o then, or doing stuff on a non iPiss phone, etc. Java is everywhere, not necessarily on the desktop but on the server, mobiles, etc, etc. Its the most widely used programming language around - more systems run on Java than will ever, ever run on Jobs' software.

  27. Tim
    Unhappy

    Enterprise

    Presumably Apple were alarmed by that recently released study (as reported on the Reg) showing a large upswing in the usage of Macs in the enterprise. Killing Java is one sure way of arresting that 'alarming' trend; it ensures the platform will remain solely for home users.

    As someone who, on *Wednesday*, signed a purchase order for five macbook pros for my team of Java-writing sales engineers I feel very, very stupid indeed. I cannot begin to imagine the look on my boss's face tomorrow.

    Thanks a million, Jobs, you colossal arse.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Jobs Horns

      Re: Enterprise

      <muntz>"Haw-Haw!"</muntz>

  28. Anonymous Coward
    FAIL

    Srsly?

    "Java is on the way out. It'll soon be just a scripting language that Oracle uses to write its sh1tty installers. Nothing else."

    Word can't describe the number of things wrong with that paragraph. Honestly, you could at least done a tiny amount of background reading on Java before posting moronic statements like that.

  29. swareInTheNews
    Paris Hilton

    What was that surgery again?

    What cancer did they actually remove from Jobs? We were told it was a Pancreatic but from some of the bizarre decisions he's been making in recent times maybe it was a brain tumour... and it sounds like they removed a lot more than just that. Like the whole thing.

    Paris because unlike the MacFanbois at least she asks to get screwed.

  30. Miek
    Linux

    another tit required!

    I guess this could signal the end of oo.org on Mac, perhaps that is the real end-game. Dump Java for an MS-Orifice love-in

  31. R Cox

    education

    There are a fair number of education apps that run on Java. One reason the ipad is not perfect for education is that it will not run java, so one needs a pc or mac. One reason mac is good for education is that Java is installed and runs well, so it is easy to use these java apps.

    If Apple no longer runs java, then it will be useless machine for education. More PCs will appear in education channels, fewer users will be exposed to Apple products, and iPad and iPhone will be less of a dominant force.

  32. Miek
    Linux

    a tit is required

    I feel that Apple are painting themselves into a corner with their current tactics. I'm not a fan of Java, but I wouldn't eradicate it just to make a point. Like the flash thing; the people who actually suffer are the users.

  33. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Conspiracy Theory!

    Let me get this right, so now only Oracle could make an Apple desktop suitable for developers and enterprise customers ? What may Apple get in return for this ? They already chucked dtrace and zfs out, of other Oracle IP they used to use. So maybe the future of IT goes like this...

    Steve: "hey Larry, say I make sure OSX is no server, and you make sure Solaris is no desktop".

    Larry: "LOL Steve, Solaris already isn't a desktop, and OSX is already not a server"

    Steve: "Well how about those Sun Ray thin clients then ... and all those horrible... Windows Terminals ? Citrix ? Surely all that ought to be replaced with lock down iPad type devices with a bigger monitor connected to your servers and both our services ? Say, call it an iTV or something. Imagine how much that will scare Steve, Michael, Sam and Leo ! I get all the clients, from phone to home, and you get all the servers and we share out the services between us, squeezing out the middlemen".

    Larry: "before any service or network providers even know what we're up to... hmm... I think you're on to something there, Steve. Might be a little loose end to tie up with John over at Cisco but I think we can conference him in over the network"

    Steve <chuckles> "yeah just stall him until I bring out the iTV client device and then cut off all their client apps. I can't believe how stupid Sony is BTW. lockdown a mac with a decent graphics card and the iGame console is done."

    Larry: <stares into space, with megalomaniac grin and fist in the air> "one day people will have to *search* for google"

  34. Bob 18
    Jobs Horns

    WTF?

    Wow, this really bites.

    I've developed some small-time business applications in Java, and almost all of my users do Macintosh. One user in particular, we invested heavily in a Macintosh network at their site.

    If Apple is now trashing Java, that puts us in a big bind. Depending on how things go, it could mean that someday we have to rip out the Macs on-site and replace them with Windows. Which we don't have a budget form. And then it would also mean higher support costs, virus costs, etc. Not happy either way... (Linux is not a viable desktop OS for this setting).

    I'm beginning to believe that Apple only wants users who play games, read websites and chat on Twitter. It seems like Jobs is suggesting that anyone wishing to do REAL BUSINESS on their computer should head to Redmond.

    1. CD001

      except

      Except the number of games on MacOS is far more limited than on PC - despite Valve's recent efforts. So Apple doesn't really want gamers; and gamers don't really want Macs - we tend to gut the internals to throw in more RAM, better GPUs and the like every so often ... in fact I only do a complete PC replacement when a CPU upgrade requires a new mobo (new slot for instance). Even aesthetically we're not that interested, Macs look like PC gaming cases from about 5 years ago (like old Lian-Li cases).

      Apple is really aiming at the consumer devices market; phones, media players, netbooks - those sort of things. They don't really want desktop users. Still, they do make shiny toys.

  35. MrHorizontal

    meh

    In all likelihood, Apple wasn't exactly releasing Java updates as regularly as Sun did, and I think they've just given up the ghost on maintaining it themselves. Don't forget the most salient point of this Java update is that it allows for other JDK's to be installed in the process.

    Seems to me that they just want to palm off the responsibility to Oracle and be done with it. As to whether they've given Oracle their Aqua integration stuff as well is entirely a different matter, but if I were Apple I'd do that and maintain the ability to run it.

    After all the Mac is actually a really, really good platform to run Java on - intended consequence or not.

  36. This post has been deleted by a moderator

  37. Poor Coco
    Pint

    Whew!

    Every day I become happier I bought a System76 Ubuntu laptop.

  38. Jacob Reid
    Gates Halo

    Just shows...

    Apple's days are numbered and they are becoming increasingly desperate in an attempt to direct some kind of attention onto themselves as they realise consumers don't want orwellian 1984-computers which tell them what they want and don't let them do their own thing, no matter how shiny and white they may be.

    1. BorkedAgain
      FAIL

      Oh, the irony.

      Anyone remember THIS piece of nostalgia?

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhsWzJo2sN4

    2. Daniel B.
      Big Brother

      Remake Apple's 1984

      But now it is Jobs himself in the Big Brother screen. I'm not sure who the runner would represent... because most of the remaining IT companies are shitty as well.

  39. Danny 6
    Jobs Horns

    Old news for Apple

    This certainly isn't the first time Apple has given developers the shaft. Back in the early 90's Apple pulled some stunts that basically killed any independent application development for OS 7.5 and that lead to a fairly massive drop in user base. More so when Win 95 hit the streets.

    I ended up defecting from the platform myself about that time when the handwriting on the wall became 20 feet high and in fresh blood. Developing software on / for the Mac was a profit-negative proposition.

    Apple has traditionally had a like/hate relationship with developers. On the one hand, the Mac OS has always been one of the more developer friendly on the market. On the other Apple tends to see 3rd party applications as potential competition and doesn't do much to actively promote development on the platform. The Mac Apps Store being a notable recent exception. I always found it ironic that Steve has decided to pan the company (Adobe) that made the Mac the dominant PC platform in the creative industry. If it weren't for Photoshop and Illustrator the Mac would have never graduated to being more than a home PC.

    For those who are old enough to remember..... Steve-O was this way the first time he was at the helm. [sarcasm] Glad to see he's mellowed with age. [/sarcasm]

    1. CD001

      Tit for tat

      ----

      I always found it ironic that Steve has decided to pan the company (Adobe) that made the Mac the dominant PC platform in the creative industry.

      ----

      I think Adobe started that one when they moved to simultaneous Windows and Mac development (and release) of Photoshop/Illustrator. I'd not be surprised if Creative Suite wasn't installed on more Windows boxes than Macs these days.

      Apart from the fact that graphic designers seem to like monochrome grey windows and meaningless coloured blobs in the top left of those windows, there's no real compelling reason to use Macs even in design studios these days.

      I actually think, on a pure shiny, shiny basis, OSx is beginning to look a little tired - Win7 is actually prettier and the Konqueror desktop isn't too far short either (this is, of course, entirely subjective - that's the thing with aesthetics).

    2. Daniel B.

      Not just Photoshop.

      Adobe Type Manager, and they purchased another company that made killer apps for the Mac: Aldus. PageMaker and FreeHand were the main selling point for us; most of my stuff (including CV) is on PageMaker 6.5 and will remain in that format for years to come. PDF was also born in the Mac.

      Steve's getting senile. Now he's even more of a control-freak than before!

    3. Azymov

      Sour Memories

      I also remember how the drop in developing for the Mac affected the number of apps available--it was a fraction of what was available for Windows (not that it has changed that much). I saw the writing on the wall back then, and my first Mac became my last--thousands of dollars later, unfortunately.

      1. Tony Smith, Editor, Reg Hardware (Written by Reg staff)

        Re: Sour Memories

        That's an old, old and incorrect argument.

        Yes, Windows has a lot more apps than the Mac OS or Mac OS X, but I don't know many, if any, Mac users - gamers excepted - who have not been able to get a task done because there was no suitable app available, and I've been using Macs since the late 1980s, through the platforms highs and lows.

  40. Tempest
    Jobs Horns

    Who really cares about Jobs?

    If Apple wants a 100% closed arena, who really cares?

    Obviously the Jobs worshippers don't, so why should the enlightened amongst us give a fig?

    Eventually Apple users will realise they are missing out on something and then they can make a decision about whether they want to be beholden to Jobs or actually start thinking for themselves.

  41. Franklin

    So, um...what am I missing here?

    Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but...

    Oracle (or the bits of Oracle that used to be Sun) writes the Java VM implementations for Windows and Linux, and Apple writes the one for OS X.

    Now Apple is saying that it doesn't want to maintain the VM for OS X any more, and that it's cool if Oracle or someone else does, but they won't. In other words, OS X will be exactly like Linux and Windows when it comes to Java.

    And everyone is moaning about this because...why, exactly? Because writing a Java VM on OS X is too hard for Oracle to do?

    1. CD001

      Must admit...

      I was wondering that myself... IIRC MS got into trouble for "abuse of monopoly position" (again) over their not-quite-compatible JVM bundled into Windows - Sun took them to court IIRC and the MS JVM was removed.

      So Apple remove their JVM and... what? I assume Oracle will make an OSX JVM and things will carry on just as before. Or are Apple users incapable of installing third party apps now?

  42. Donald Atkinson

    I don't much care who makes it

    Apple's versions of Java have been behind everyone else's version of Java for years. I really don't give a damn if Apple stops generating their own versions as long as Oracle takes up the slack and makes a Apple version. Hell they might just stay more current than Apple ever did.

  43. skipoles
    FAIL

    JVM Not Just for Java

    I'm a Mac user and developer. I build apps for Mac and iPhone in Objective-C, but I also build backends for corporate sites in languages that run on the JVM. Not having Java on the Mac would make my life as a developer very difficult. It's the Java work that pays the bills and allows me to develop for the Mac/iPhone so I guess the latter would have to drop if I couldn't use a Mac.

    Also, don't forget that the Java Virtual Machine is not just Java. There are a whole load of better languages that require a JVM to run: Groovy, Scala, JRuby, Clojure and many others. Dumping Java from the Mac excludes way more developers than those stuck in boring old Javaland!

    As a developer I but top end Mac kit. I can't help feeling that Apple are shooting themselves in the foot with this one. Let's hope Oracle step up to the plate.

  44. sT0rNG b4R3 duRiD
    Jobs Horns

    Java on the mac.

    1. Dumping Java: Apple would be really silly unless they know something we don't, ie perhaps sun/oracle will take up the slack when apple stops.

    2. As a few have said, there is still the VM option and fortunately virtual box and linux is virtually free. Not that I think this is without drawbacks, but it does have advantages - the JVM will be in a virtual machine and if there are issues with security, the VM may contain it.

    3. However I conjecture that this is just plain Apple-hate that Jobs is displaying.

    Apple prove me wrong.

  45. Magnus_Pym

    Isn't it all about the app store?

    Jobs knows that the apps sold the iphone. Every one I know that bought the early iPhones said 'hey, you gotta see this' and delight in showing off some 'cool' thing it do. If a punter wants the app they had to ditch their Nokia or Blackberry and buy an iPhone. And they did in droves.

    Jobs wants this kind of buying for the Mac. If the new 'must have ' app is written in Java it soon gets ported to other platforms and punters have no reason to swap to a Mac. Written native it is much harder and so if the punters wants the app while it is fashionable they have to buy a Mac to run it. Hey Presto! Mac sales.

    And anyway if businesses want java someone will provide it.

    1. Azymov

      At Last

      The proverbial, 'You hit the nail on the head', can be exclaimed.

  46. The Grime
    Jobs Horns

    not surprising

    Showing my age, but I was coding Java on the Mac in the 90s using Metrowerks Codewarrior IDE. When Sun released Java 1.2 (Java 2), it took Apple over a year to release the software update. My choice was be stuck on 1.1.7 or whatever it was, or switch to the PC. I missed Codewarrior, but haven't looked back. I've watched the recent trend for developers to choose MacBooks with an arched eyebrow - how could so many people be so shallow as to choose a platform based on how shiny it is? Can't say I'm surprised to see the wheels coming off the wagon again. The question is, which PC laptop will the trendies migrate to?

  47. StooMonster
    Jobs Horns

    Leave it to Larry

    It's often cited that Larry is Steve's "best friend", when I heard this news I assumed that it meant Oracle was taking over Java development on the Mac. Maybe I'm wrong?

    Another point, this shows that Apple are never bringing Blu-ray movie player support to Mac OS X as this optical disc format requires a JVM to run the DRM.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Jobs Horns

      They don't have Blu-ray support?

      AAAAHH HAHAHAHAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!! HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHHA!!!! HA! HA! HA! HAHAHAHAHAHA!

      OOOHH GOOD LORD, YOU'RE NOT JOKING!

      So something sold on it's ability to play movies and be used for entertainment purposes won't work with what is now a pretty well supported piece of tech? You won't be able to watch High-Def movies from disc on that awesome new big-ass screen you paid over the odds for? Or watch 3D movies- a trick which PCs have been doing for a couple of decades, (though which has only taken off commercially in the last year or two?)

      Yeah, so "I'm a Mac. I can't watch any of the movies you've bought since you got a PS3... and won't be able to take advantage of that big-ass 3DTV you're thinking about splashing out on. But... but... I've got iTunes! You like iTunes, right? No? Oh. Well I'm from the people who brought you the iPhone, so I'm cool too! I'm like the iPhone's bigger brother- that makes me slightly more awesome, right? Right?! Come on, guys, let's go buy 'shakes at the five-and-dime!"

      Actually, this has a lot of potential. Where's the email for Microsoft's Marketing department?"

      Ha.

      1. StooMonster

        720p is good enough, right?

        Yeah, Apple says 720p streaming is "good enough" HD for you! Personally I prefer 1080p Blu-ray for my AV kit, but hey Apple could be right. Plenty of people prefer the small file size of AAC and MP3 files compared to CD quality sound, maybe Jobs is right and mass-market similarly doesn't care about video quality like it doesn't care about audio quality. So long as I can still buy high quality audio and video then I'm OK, the problem will come when the only choice is low quality.

        Over on the Apple friendly parts of the Interwebz it's being reported that Steve Jobs has implied that Oracle are going to handle Java for Mac OS X in the future.

  48. Anonymous Coward
    FAIL

    More reasons not to buy Apple.

    If this OCD perfectionist designer wants to make his platform less attractive, that's his choice, but less people will buy his products.

    I did find it amusing when some big name Java developers bought macs, then got stung by the laggard Java upgrades for OS-X.

    Either Oracle takes back provision of the JVM and JDK, from Apple, or Apple systems becomes no go areas for the many cross-platform Java applications, these include critical business applications used by well known businesses!

  49. JDX Gold badge
    FAIL

    Android devs

    Surely a huge number of Android developers develop on Macs, because they also create iPhone apps and this requires a Mac?

  50. Anonymous Coward
    Unhappy

    Academia

    This would kill Apple in academia. It would be huge mistake, as there are a lot of computer science related applications that would not run anymore. A few come to mind, such as JFLAP and entire development environments such as NetBeans and Eclipse (as mentioned rightly by a few posters, these IDEs are not just used for developing Java apps). Not to mention some essential programs such as MATLAB and SPSS. Plus the fact that many, many courses at Universities the world over teach using Java for the simple fact that programming can be taught to students who run various platforms. Apple computers are used to a high percentage in academia, and this would change if Java was killed.

  51. lee harvey osmond

    Serverside Java? J2EE? WebObjects? The iTunes stores?

    Apple has a number of web applications that aren't going to go away soon, such as the iTunes stores, written in WebObjects. The current version of WebObjects is pure Java.

    But then, the previous version of WebObjects used ObjC, and Apple never supported that after MacOSX 10.1.5 or December 2003. It is widely believed that Apple maintains a large estate of PPC Xserves running custom builds of MacOSX explicitly to support existing WebObjects 4.x applications, and it's entirely possible that Apple will do the same to support its WebObjects 5.x investment. Apple might be saying that Java will be dead and gone, but that will mean that it's dead and gone for customers, while inside Apple it remains an essential technology whose continued existence as far as possible remains carefully hidden from the outside world.

    Use a third-party JVM? If interested in developing server applications, I can get by without Eclipse using Xcode, and I'll not need X11, or AppKit integration, or SWT, or AWT, or Swing, or any of that.

    I did notice after upgrading from JDK 1.4 on MacOSX Tiger Intel to JDK 1.5 on MacOSX Tiger Intel just how much faster my bytecode was running because of the availability of a JIT native compiler. I'm not sure how well third-party JVM maintainers would fare at providing one of those.

  52. Robbie

    Not happy

    I would miss Java, Steve....

  53. Christopher E. Stith
    FAIL

    Blame Oracle

    Everyone seems to link Apple deprecating their own Java version to not liking non-native apps and trying to kill Android for the benefit of the iPhone. Well, consider that Oracle just reversed years of Java policy of their own and of Sun's and decided to sue Google for developing Java that didn't exactly please Oracle. Perhaps Apple would rather have Oracle provide you with Java for the Mac than be sued by Oracle for providing it themselves.

    Oracle's policies on Java, Solaris, MySQL, and pretty much everything else from Sun Microsystems is so far full of Fail.

  54. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I really don't see what the problem is...

    As has already been pointed out, Apple is/was the only platform supplying their own JVM; Windows and Linux users have to go to Sun/Oracle to get their JVMs, so why not Apple users too?

    There has been much derision of Apple over the last few years about the way that the Apple JVM lags behind the official JVM, so now why aren't those people rejoicing that the JVM at last has a chance to be up to date?

    Unless of course Sun/Oracle are Apple-haters too...

    1. Penti

      They weren't

      IBM supplies their own Hotspot based JVM to their Power servers with IBM i (i5/OS), to their Z/OS z-series mainframes or Z systems, for AIX, for linux, even did for Windows actually. Before they sold of their pc lineup. Oracle did produce their own JRockit JVM which they will merge with Hotspot, and companies like Azul systems have their own Hotspot based implementations and hardware support/acceleration. And there is SAP too, and a few other really. Linux users go to IcedTea or depending on what environment they run may run JVMs from IBM, maybe even SAP or Oracles BEA buy JRockit besides the old Sun JVM. Oh yeah HP supplies their own JVM to their Unix-platforms too. HP-UX, OpenVMS and Reliant/Nonstop that is.

  55. uhuznaa

    Update

    Steve Jobs comment is this (from http://www.flickr.com/photos/frasers/5104179782/):

    "Sun (now Oracle) supplies Java for all other platforms. They have their own release schedules, which are almost always different than ours, so the Java we ship is always a version behind. This may not be the best way to do it."

    Say what you want, but he's right. Java on OS X was always a step behind and Oracle shipping it in sync with the Windows and Linux versions would be The Right Thing to do.

  56. Peter Mc Aulay
    Flame

    "Alienating developers on a grand scale"

    Oh, puh-lease. Despite all the hype and hysteria the Mac is still a minority platform.

    Some students and yuppie developers may care about Java on Macs, but I there are not many enterprises which would even notice. Nobody ever bought a Mac because it had such great Java support, IME.

    Besides, what the world needs is NOT more Java developers.

  57. Yautja_Cetanu
    Jobs Horns

    Don't understand why people are suprised...

    I don't understand why so many (especially opensource) developers love apple so much! In the world of Drupal everyone is on a mac and it seems silly because Apple not only don't promise to "do no evil" this kind of thing like banning java is exactly what they have proven they will do.

    Why did the developer spend so much time trying to convert people to mac?

    1. The Other Steve
      WTF?

      WTF

      "like banning java"

      Or in fact, not at all like banning Java.

  58. Anonymous Coward
    Flame

    Bye Bye

    Java programmers... a bit like civil servants that tell you just how important they are but when they go nobody misses them.

  59. mark phoenix

    Talk about Apple shooting itself in the foot

    Lets piss off Developers who like OSX and make them switch to buying vanilla hardware and running Linux.

    Using VM's / bootcamp are a pain. I use bootcamp for windows for gaming, because I have to.

    If I have to add Linux for Java development, then my next Laptop will probably be a vanilla laptop setup for dual boot, running Windows and Linux.

    1. James Butler

      Exactly

      Buy yourself a screaming Windows 7 laptop ... there are many in the 3GB/360GB/<$400 territory ... download the incredibly easy-to-use Ubuntu Windows installer ... run the thing ... reboot ... BAM ... a new, dynamic Linux partition and full-fledged Linux/Windows dual boot is yours in under an hour.

      While you use the long-standing Ubuntu Software Repositories, with one-click installation of tens of thousands of free (as in beer) Apps, you can remember how cool Apple was when they "innovated" the AppStore.

      And for those of you who are stupidly commenting about how little Java impacts your daily lives, you are clearly uninformed. Java is running, right now, in your car, in your telephone control centers and in hundreds of other places you use every day. Just because you don't see it on your desktop doesn't mean it's not the number one most-used programming language on the planet, right now. There's a reason for that. That reason is its portability between virtually any system configuration. That includes the desktop and server systems you can see with your own two eyes and thousands of variants of mobile and embedded systems ... even extending into hospitals and other critical environments.

      Jobs announcing that his company won't be providing a JVM, refusing to open his company's APIs in any significant way, and threatening every type of developer with his insane knee-jerk responses will push developers away from his platform. Both the absence of a native JVM (because, face it, Oracle doesn't give a crap if the tiny fraction of systems that Apple represents get a native JVM) and the instability of Jobs' management decisions make for an unstable, uninviting environment.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        FAIL

        Grow up, James...

        Who supplies the JVM for your "screaming Windows 7 laptop"? Microsoft? No. So why is it Apple's job to supply it for OS X?

        1. James Butler

          Not Sure What You Mean

          Did my comment have anything to do with who supplies the JVM?

          I'm pretty sure I was providing a path to a Java-friendly development environment to a poster who expressed an interest in discovering one. And, if you recall, I was promoting Ubuntu ... which also has its base JVM built by Sun/Oracle, just like Microsoft does. (See if you can figure out *why* Apple doesn't use Sun/Oracle's services ... I'll leave it to you as an exercise that you very badly need.)

          Surely you aren't disagreeing with my statement about how much Java is being used outside of the Macintosh world? Because that would be simply ignorant.

          Have a nice day!

  60. The Other Steve

    Android unaffected

    Because as we see every day in these hallowed and august comment threads, frothing at the mouth fandroids hate Apple with such ferocity it's a wonder they ever have time for anything else.

    And from all the 'open' rhetoric and broken word salad that emerges from the alleged developers, it's clear that most of them aren't old enough to have a job that pays enough to buy a mac even if they didn't.

    Of course, Im unfairly generalising a whole set from an entirely unrepresentative sample, aren't I.

  61. D. M
    Pint

    I"m no fan of java

    But, What would anyone lose?

    Nothing will come close to Windows in business desktop. I do love Linux, but there is no way in hell anything but Windows will own the business world. There are simply too many business critical software tied to Windows. Steve knows it, he won't waste time or effort here.

    Apple is never going to take server market either, again, no lose.

    For those who like to do some independent thinking, they are not likely to use Mac anyway, Apply will not lose any business here.

    For those who are die hard iEverything followers, they will still buy whatever Apple sells. Again, no lose.

    If some die hard Apple followers are force to also use Windows/Linux alone side their iThingy, why is it bad? This way, everyone wins.

    See, Steve is helping Windows/Linux, cheers.

  62. Tom 38 Silver badge
    Happy

    Speaking as a consumer and a developer

    I freaking love you apple. i despise Java, in all its incarnations. If you are significantly twisted enough to develop your apps in this insidious shit hole of a language, at least be kind and do it all server side, don't foist your perversions onto the clients.

    Personally, I've been Flash and Java free for ages. No, I'm not missing anything. I don't want your shoddy plugins and VMs anywhere near my OS.

  63. Bugs R Us
    Gates Halo

    Good riddance

    So now we just need Java to die off in Linux and Windows land; and judging by Oracles latest efforts they'll do a pretty good job of that by themselves. Long live .NET Framework and Mono.

  64. Anonymous Coward
    Grenade

    I will develop apps using whatever the hell I like..

    ..if that means they aren't accepted on the iToy or on a computer that has all of 1% of the market, well that's just too bad. For Apple.

  65. M Gale

    Reminds me of the Computing In Practice tutor.

    "Java is dead."

    So I stick my hand up.

    "Isn't Android outselling the iPhone right now?"

    So for my usability analysis assignment, he's given me Google. Lesson learned: Never make a Phd look bad in front of his class.

    1. M Gale

      At least you listed them separately...

      ...because Mono is anything but .NET.

  66. This post has been deleted by its author

  67. Anonymous Coward
    Megaphone

    apple dont want java devs, so whats the problem, just move to RIM ,they like java

    If apple dont want java devs, then whats the problem, devs can just move over to RIM ,they REALLY like java and its developer tools , and they have an actual real dual 1gig A9 Arm CPU to actually help your java commercial and open efforts run faster than the crappy single core Arm A8

    "The other salient point here is that if you don't have Java on the Mac, you can't use Google's Android SDK. Most Android development is done on Eclipse, and though Eclipse isn't required by the SDK, the Java environment is. "I guess Steve really, really doesn't like Android, does he?" Abbey says.

    So, Steve Jobs never gave Java a chance on the iPhone or the iPad. He's now threatening to kill it on the Mac. And in so doing, he's shoving a world of Java developers off his desktops and laptops, including Android coders. "I cannot overstate what catastrophe this is," says one coder." If the future of Java on Mac is in doubt, then I have no other choice than going the Linux way...all the work I've done trying to get all developers converting to Mac is undone.""

  68. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I'm not complaining because I don't use Java on the Mac...

    First Steve banned Flash on the iPad and iPhone and I did not complain because I did not use Flash; then Steve banned Java on the Mac and I did not complain because I did not use Java; then Steve banned me and there was no-one left to complain...

  69. MinionZero
    WTF?

    WTF are Apple playing at?!

    We have repeated examples of iPhone developers cut from Apple's store wiping out their business income. Flash application developers locked out of Apple reducing their business income and now Java developers getting locked out of Apple. What the hell?!

    From a business perspective, its getting increasingly high risk (for almost all businesses) to base their business model primarily (or even partly) on supporting Apple products, because Apple's repeated moves to close down their platform at any moment could then undermine your entire business income or at the very least hurt your business. That is no way to encourage more developers to support their platform!. This is going to scare more developers away wondering what is next to become closed. Its already scared me away as I was just planning to start supporting Macs!. Like most developers I can't afford to risk time and money on a platform that may suddenly try to cut me out like so many other developers are now suffering. :(

  70. Stephen Bungay

    And the lesson is....

    Don't put your eggs in one vendor's proprietary cart.

    So apple plans on relegating Java to their waste-basket, so what, it's not the end of the Mac world is it? No it isn't, because you can (still) install a VM and run Windows or Linux and carry on carrying on. Note the (still) in that last sentence? Its there because I don't think Mr. Jobs is anywhere near finished consolidating control over his platform. By guiding the Mac users towards one source for their applications, Mr. Jobs can decide what a Mac is or is not permitted to run. He could ban all VMs. Why would he do this? I have no idea. Perhaps just because he wants to (unlikely), or perhaps it doesn't fit in with his grand-plan (more plausible). Does this sound like a silly thing to do? It does to me, but more importantly does it sound possible? Does Java depend on the Java VM?

    Watch the original 1984 Mac Advertisement, see that man on the big screen preaching to the masses? As much as he and others might not like to admit it, 26 years after that advert ran, Mr. Jobs has become more like (than unlike) that Orwellian character.

  71. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    why all the surprise , apple.job's did exactly the same with 3rd party PPC HW vendors

    "From a business perspective, its getting increasingly high risk (for almost all businesses) to base their business model primarily (or even partly) on supporting Apple products, because Apple's repeated moves to close down their platform at any moment could then undermine your entire business income or at the very least hurt your business. "

    why all the surprise today, apple or rather job's did exactly the same with 3rd party PPC HW vendors Years ago, when nearly all the 3rd party vendors where producing far better Hardware CPU add-ins for job's Mac baby.

    these PPC CPU OEM's where all working out open plan's to increase the overall market share for apple and everyone involved to become larger and so sell far more kit, but job's didn't like that fact these add-ins where better and faster than his original CPU's or the fact people actually wanted to buy the faster 3rd party CPU options and so job's killed the 3rd party licencing dead.

    lesson learned, know your real apple history , and dont make the same mistakes again, do not trust job's in the long term, he will turn and bite your hand off along with your offerings.

  72. Jim Benn
    Paris Hilton

    Inevitable.

    If you go to the Apple store, you'll see (in the URL) that WebObjects (the 16 year old technology) is no longer used. You can also take into account the "introduction" of iOS Apps onto MacOS X. So

    a "Java-like" development platform does/will exist on Mac OS X (and the iPad and the iPhone and AppleTV). It won't take much to put a JVM on Mac OS X (for the web/JavaScript), so Apple can free up a group of developers to work on other things (whatever).

    And, I think all the folks who say that Apple will give you all the software they tell you that you will want, seems to be correct. I can think of no other reason (apart from saving money).

  73. NoneSuch Silver badge
    Linux

    Easy Peezy

    Apple is worth $91 billion with $25 billion cash in the bank and no debt.

    Google is worth 150 billion and made 14 billion profit last statement.

    Google needs to buy out Apple. 14 billion is more than a 10% down-payment with the rest in installments over ten years. :)

    Kick Mr. Jobs to the curb (Don't feel bad for him, he can go back to Pixar and make Finding Nemo 2: The Revenge) and you are done!

    Its a win - win!!!

  74. PhilBack
    WTF?

    Linux runs on Apple hardware...

    And then all the Java development can be done there...

  75. Anonymous Coward
    Grenade

    Java sucks eggs and is such as has been anyway

    Look at you bitchy moaning Java devs. First you bitch Apple for not having a good Java or being behind the scenes. Then now that you have your arses kicked you bitch and moan at all the extra work it will take for you to do the job Apple was doing making Java for the OS X platform.

    You bitch and moan that the build in is no good. Yet won't install and use any other product. What a bunch of pansy nancy boys spoilt brats!

    I don't use the built in Python or Ruby interpreters that ship with OS X and I have no problems doing any coding with those. Hell I'm not even doing programming as a living and I picked up Objective C easily enough to move my applications across from other languages.

    Why don't you get off your lazy whining arses and actually do some actual work and effort improving yourselves. Java is a dead end, its not going anywhere but down especially now in the hands of Oracle.

    Get over yourselves already!

  76. nsld
    Thumb Up

    Thanks Steve

    One of our competitors has a java driven product for Mac which I come up against on a regular basis.

    Thanks Steve for killing the competition for me.

    I shall look forward to converting them to our product.

  77. Anonymous Coward
    FAIL

    no more Macs then...

    pretty much all of our network management applications are now Java based

    at least that means we can still run Linux, MacOSX as well as windows and still get access - rather than when it was a windows only EXE.

    however, if Java is going DODO on OSX, then I'm afraid thats it. end of the road. there will be no new Mac upgrade for me when my current machine reaches end of warranty. back to 100% linux desktop (with m0n0 for .NET requirements)

  78. Joshua Goodall
    FAIL

    What kind of tinpot developer...

    "if Steve Jobs is booting Java from the Mac, he's also booting Java developers"

    What kind of tinpot two-bit developer doesn't install their own JDK?

    1. Penti

      There is none

      It's the JDK <and> the JRE thats closed down and canceled since Apple is the one releasing it. Not only that but the ones porting it. Only one with at tinpot is you. Please have a clue before posting. Get a grip. You can't install something that aren't offered. Apple is booting their port of JRE7 to the mac.

  79. LimitingFactor
    Thumb Down

    Goodbye Lotus Notes

    No Java on Macs would mean not only no Java dev environments; it will also impact in-house applications for several customers that I know of.

    And IBM won't be too happy about this, too, since Lotus Notes now needs Java. So this means Macs will be kicked out of places that use Domino/Notes.

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