Organized religion ...
Organized religion is the root of all evil.
That's not to say that all organized religion is evil, mind.
An it harm none, do what ye will.
No, I'm not Wiccan, but I grok the sentiment ...
Red-nosed pastor Terry Jones, who plans to burn copies of the Koran and Jewish text the Talmud at the weekend, has either had his website hacked or his ISP has pulled the plug. The site, at http://www.doveworld.org/ is unavailable this morning. The pastor of a tiny fundamentalist church in Florida, which has reportedly lost …
Hitler based a lot of his policies on the teachings of the Jesuits. In particular his hatred of Jews seems to stem from his Jesuit upbringing. So yes religion was at the root of some of Hitler's evil.
However I don't agree that religion is the root of all evil. There are many "evil" people out there who use religion as a handy justification for their deeds and a handy way of making others do "evil" things.
Would the amount of evil in the world reduce if there were no organised religion? I doubt it. The bad guys would just find other reasons. We already have them.
Hitler was a very religious person, the SS held quasi religious ceremonies based on some dodgy interpretation of paganism, and the Nazis encouraged the cult of the Führer. Mao certainly encouraged people to believe in his cult - it is still going strong, and Stalin did the same.
So Christianity has nothing to answer for here, right?
Hitler: member of the Roman-Catholic church until April 30, 1945.
Stalin: top student for 6 years at Gori Theological School. Spent some time in a seminary after that.
Mao: no idea what his religious connection is, but probably not Christian. Maoism can be said to be a religion, though, so at least he started his very own like L. Ron Hubbard and other scammers.
So one out of three is not bad. Wait. It actually is, isn't it?
Mao and Stalin were avowed atheists, irrespective of any earlier dabblings. Hitler kept quiet on the subject in order to avoid unnecessarily antagonizing the church, but it seems unlikely that he was following the precepts of any recognised religion.
If you want to redefine 'organized religion' to mean "anything that causes evil", feel free - but your argument may become rather circular.
when Sarah Palin thinks you are a nut job.
I saw this moron on tv last night banging on about going ahead if theres no sign from god.... man i was praying for a thunderbolt right then...
nope. invisible, impotent friend it is then.
PS, that money in germany was just resting in his account by the way
To wit - "Book burning is antithetical to American ideals. People have a constitutional right to burn a Koran if they want to, but doing so is insensitive and an unnecessary provocation – much like building a mosque at Ground Zero."
The "mosque at Ground Zero" is a day centre two blocks away that she and her followers turned into an issue, nobody else. She might not be quite as demented as this pastor but she is definitely of the same persuasion.
Thanks to AC for that link - brightened up a horrible day.
I must quote this for those of you not bothered to follow the link:
"The planned "ultra-mosque" will be a staggering 5,600ft tall – more than five times higher than the tallest building on Earth – and will be capped with an immense dome of highly-polished solid gold, carefully positioned to bounce sunlight directly toward the pavement, where it will blind pedestrians and fry small dogs. The main structure will be delimited by 600 minarets, each shaped like an upraised middle finger, and housing a powerful amplifier: when synchronised, their combined sonic might will be capable of relaying the muezzin's call to prayer at such deafening volume, it will be clearly audible in the Afghan mountains, where thousands of terrorists are poised to celebrate by running around with scarves over their faces, firing AK-47s into the sky and yelling whatever the foreign word for "victory" is."
Having had the (mis)fortunate growing up around family trees that were vertical and NOT horizontal in the US south, I thought wrongly that the Southern Baptists and their incredible hypocrisy, idiocy stunts dissing other religions took the biscuit. My favourite growing up was the SB's that would dress up their daughters in Easter Sunday clothes and send them to your front door, typically on Sat AM when hangovers prevail. "Have you taken J*sus, or Do you believe in J*sus" were the typical incendiary comments. Asking them in for a joint and a pint usually caused their Mum's to snap them up and go running for the next idiot to attack.
Then this lot was incorrectly bred, and looks to be a prime candidate for a retroactive abortion.
Then these idiots came out of their sub terrain slumber, and are unleashing all the stupid that stupid can be upon the world. They're probably delusional to an extent that purging a religious sect's book will kill the poison, but woe be these morons for the results of their issues.
Clearly they skipped courses in school, it they even went/finished on Cause & Effect.
Perhaps the wrath will just land on their heads, if anyone's listening!
perhaps you might start thinking?
Oh, wait, this is a fundamentalist, so thinking is probably considered sinful.
What really makes me sick is that in a time when I hear several Muslim groups are shifting their end of Ramadan feast so that they do not coincide the September 11, out of respect for those who died, we have an idiot like this tarring all Muslims with the same brush.
BTW, could they not fine him on environmental charges?
You know, every society has its share of crazed, gibbering nut-cases. Some more than others, but you'll find them everywhere. So the problem here is not that this particular crazed, gibbering nut-case is hell bent on seriously insulting a whole lot of innocent people, but that somehow he's managed to get his society's media to pay attention. Any sensible society would be ignoring him because, well, you know, he's a crazed, gibbering nut-case.
Lunatics do lunatic things all the time. The world doesn't need to hear about it on the news.
I thought "inciting religious hatred" was a crime - don't know about in the USA though. Muslims consider the Koran itself to be sacred, the literal words of God - it must be handled reverently. Burning it like this is tantamount to wandering into your local church and taking a dump on the altar/pulpit/whatever during Sunday Mass.
Since I grew up in a country where the car-bombs were planted by "Christians" - death by bomb isn't something you generally worry about - it'll happen or it won't. What I object to is dickheads living in the Dark Ages - Christian or Muslim. Worse from any of the three Abrahamic religions as they all worship the same God - essentially they're fighting each other over semantics (Christian/Muslim or even inside Christianity itself with Catholic/Protestant).
Florida state law
Title XLVI Chapter 823.02 "Building Bonfires"
Whoever is concerned in causing or making a bonfire within 10 rods (165ft) of any house or building shall be guilty of a misdemeanor of the second degree.
Title XLVI, Chapter 775.31 "Facilitating or furthering terrorism; felony or misdemeanor reclassification."
(1) If a person is convicted of committing a felony or misdemeanor that facilitated or furthered any act of terrorism, the court shall reclassify the felony or misdemeanor to the next higher degree as provided in this section. The reclassification shall be made in the following manner:
(a) In the case of a misdemeanor of the second degree, the offense is reclassified as a misdemeanor of the first degree.
(3) As used in this section, the term "terrorism" means an activity that:
(a)1. Involves a violent act or an act dangerous to human life which is a violation of the criminal laws of this state or of the United States; or
Is intended to:
3. **Affect the conduct of government through destruction of property**, assassination, murder, kidnapping, or aircraft piracy.
I hear correct way to burn the devils own literature is to cover it liberally with petrol.
Then you need to get all your god fearing worshippers right in close, to stop the evil spirits escaping.
Everyone needs to start praying very hard.
Then the pastor sets light to it all.
If they are holy enough, then they will be protected from the ensuing cloud of evil plasma as it escapes upwards to be absorbed by heaven.
If the weekend is nice I plan to burn a few sausages.... The pigs will be revoulting...
Seriously, these people are such a danger to global society but years ago they were widespread and classed as prophets... Most of the largest and bloodiest wars are down to religion... I weep for the past(ors), present and future...
Freedom is fine, and we are not stopping him. We can call him an idiot, and he SHOULD be held (directly or indirectly) responsible for ANY damage or deaths caused by this action, especially because he has been warned about the consequences. Freedom is empty without responsibility.
If a wife leaves her husband because she has the right to divorce and he kills her after warning her, then it's her fault???
It's a book. He's not the state, ergo the whole nazi-blow-a-load imagery doesn't apply. He's a babbling citizen exercising his right to be stupid. That doesn't mean he's responsible for someone going out and killing people because he burned a BOOK. Was the Dutch cartoonist responsible for the killings after the his toon was published or was it the editor, or maybe the shareholders who own the company, or how about the paperboy who delivered the paper?
between being threatened directly by the man you wish to divorce (e.g., because he is a violent bastard), and being warned that your action could lead to innocent deaths, and which could be prevented from expressing yourself differently. If I want to express my anger, disrespect, etc, and I am told that a particular way of expressing it: (a) offends many I do not mean to offend, and (b) could lead to a violent backlash, should I then not consider expressing myself better?
Again, I am not denying this man his right to free speech, but the right to free speech does not deny my option to sue someone for libel, or defamation, etc. Inciting hatred is another reason you might be sued. If you call for all members of any ethnic, political or religious group to be rounded up and hanged, and send out this message repeatedly, should you go unpunished if some idiots take precisely this action?
There are no easy answers, and different rights need to be balanced.
Rather than calling for a ban on the burning of books, I would suggest he behave in a more civilized way.
...but the speaker must remember that it carries a heavy burden of personal responsibility. Words are powerful. Words have consequences. Words can start wars. Words can destroy churches, end pastoral careers and get innocent people you've never even met killed just because they happen to have a certain nationality or religious belief.
The right to free speech is NOT a license to be deliberately inflammatory or hateful and expect there to be no consequences to yourself or others just because it's "protected speech". There are way too many people in positions of influence who have forgotten that, or aren't willing to accept responsibility for the consequences of their words.
One of the justifications this nut job gave was about the link between Islam and terrorism - how about he reads the history books about things such as the crusades, witches, the inquistion and the sectarian violence in Ireland - violent episodes *justified* by radicalised christian views. Perhaps this guy should extend his event to include bible burning too, no scrub that - let's have a tw*t burning instead!
"The Dove World Outreach Center also sells "Islam is the Devil" T-shirts and runs an eBay business."
The name of his "church" has been amusing me since this story broke. Way to reach out to the world, dickhead.
"Their fundamentalist religion is evil! They want to call people heathens, and burn their symbols, and potentially kill them! All we want to do is..er...um..."
I am not suggesting that all Muslims are fundamentalists, nor all fundamentalists terrorists -- but his point that without the Koran the attacks would not have taken place is true.
While he's at it he should burn the Bible (well, those books the Catholic church have allowed him to have in a book) as well for all the suffering that has given the world.
Perhaps those in any sort of organised religion should look to their own faith and wonder how it may be divisive and why such abuse can be carried out in its name.
What a dumb ass comment.
If it wasn't the Koran that was used as a justification it would be something else.
Catholics and Protestants have been killing each other in Ireland for years and they both read the same book.
The people in Ireland are a great example that proves what I just said. Without the ability to call someone "Catholic" or "Protestant" or, even, without the fact that the two religions are, from the outset of protestantism, at war it would have been a bit tricky to polarise people in Ireland and maybe, just maybe, whoever was the most sensible may have become the majority without the need for murder and from-birth indoctrination of children to their cause.
If it weren't for people taking these fairy stories far too seriously to the point of using one as an excuse for murder or just using them as excuses to get people to vote for them we wouldn't be in this mess.
Yes, humans are violent and will war without these books -- but doctrines like these make great mechanisms to control large numbers of people who would otherwise call you a twat and ignore you.
The reason some of these cults started in the first place seems, from their history, to be to band people together to kill another group of people, in fact.
It's the Sassanach b4st4rds that came across and invaded us.
They just happened to be protestant. No doubt if no religion existed we'd still have wanted in them old days to kick them out and would no doubt have found some other differentiating issue.
While it is good to remember what they actually did to us as a lesson, I would say, forgive and move on, eh? :) I find the Brits are generally infinitely more pleasant to deal with than Yanks, to tell you the truth!
But my point stands. People will find differences to make trouble, all the time, Religion or otherwise.
And when they don't want to, they can find reasons to be friends.
I don't think we're doing all that bad with relations with the UK and sure, aren't the US and Japan much friendlier now than they were nigh 70 years ago?
Fundamentalist idiots are fundamentalist idiots. It doesn't matter what magic sky pixie demented worldview they've bought into, they're as stupid as each other.
I propose flying every fundamentalist and dumping them all on a small island. There they can brutally kill each other in their insane never ending holy war and leave everyone else alone. Whichever faith comes out victorious shall receive a small Tesco Value plastic trophy for their troubles.
The problem with freedom of speech is everybody has to have it.
If the media hadn't picked it up nobody would care that he was having a B-B-Q in his garden.
I think most sane IT individuals will agree that it's not the book but more how the book has been used by head banging preachers that are the problem. Much like how the Rev Jones is using the Bible to justify being a complete C*unt.
icon ... obvious
Hmm there is always one somewhere that wants to upset the apple cart, the small minority that ends up getting the rest of us tarnished with the same brush. I do hope it was some white hat that took his site off line, I'm sorry but as independent bible believing baptist myself, this saddens me terribly. I'm just thinking maybe someone, a Christian would be nice should go deal with this Inbred idiot who's doing to Christianity what the Taliban and "old hook-hand" did to Islam, and then let God judge him..
@ Jake that ain't strictly true now it's just what happens when the garden don't get weeded right and the hateful get left to grow and then preach their own TWISTED version of the truth.
@NH - yeah when Sarah Palin thinks your a nut job, it's time to call the men in the white coats to come take you back to the nut house. I wonder if the nut house there is missing a few nuts.
@AC - Yup totally true, the bible comes from the original Hebrew through Greek to English with nothing left out and anything added clearly marked, at least in my bible it is.
@S.Pam - I feel for ya, I can see why you've probably stayed away from church, there are other churches out there, as God (if ya believe in him or not) has a purpose for all.
It's a crazy place when world leaders incl. Tony Blair condem someone for burning a pile of old books but are not so concerned when their actions lead directly to burning people. i.e. mainly muslims in Iraq.
My only suggestion to the pastor, would be to, add the Torah,Nevi'im and Ketuvim, to the pile of Korans and Talmuds.
The guy is expressing his disrespect for something which he doesn't respect. He is allowed to do that.
He is burning some books which he owns. He is allowed to do that.
His motivation may be to insult and offend half the world's population, and get himself a load of publicity in the process. So he is a deeply unpleasant jerk with views that most of us completely disagree with. He is still allowed to express those views.
Are ordinary muslims offended by this? Only those that want to be, I suspect.
Some nutter in Afganistan might use this as an excuse to kill a soldier? Blame the nutter. He would have found a different excuse.
If we carry on suppressing freedom of expression to avoid upsetting terrorists, we may as well give up.
If you know certain actions (while legal) may lead to the deaths of others (through no direct action of yours), you are still in part responsible. We are not claiming he should be silenced, he can vent his distasteful ideas in different, less insensitive ways, but if he chooses not to, he is in part responsible for the consequences.
All that people have been saying that they feel the action is unwise, distasteful, etc, and have been warning him of possible dangers, whilst at the same time indicating that he has the right to be the complete jerk he appears to be (he may of course be an incomplete jerk).
The right to say what you want goes hand in hand with the right to be called into question, and the duty to face the consequences
No one is suppressing his freedom. People are saying he is a deeply ignorant, egotistical, self-serving, pathetic excuse for a man, and the world would have been a better place if he had been strangled at birth. But no-one is denying that under the US constitution he does actually have the right to do this.
It boils down to this. If this person publicly does what he claims he will do, people will die. That is the outcome, and the cause rests firmly with his entirely avoidable and completely offensive act.
Possibly it will be US soldiers who die, possibly some poor bastards who get caught up in the frenzied demonstrations that will inevitably follow, possibly some Muslims in the crosshairs of the police, possibly some time later when some radical uses it to justify blowing themselves up.
This "pastor" is a moron. I think he should be allowed to burn the Koran if he wishes. I believe he flown to the main square in Tehran where he will be promptly stoned to death by the angry mob. Then we can get this shit over with until the next loon decides to exercise his free speech in the most offensive way possible.
"It boils down to this. If this person publicly does what he claims he will do, people will die. That is the outcome, and the cause rests firmly with THAT OTHER PERSON WHO WILL USE ANY EXCUSE, INCLUDING THIS ONE, TO DO his entirely avoidable and completely offensive act."
There, fixed that for ya.
Why give them the excuse? Sure, they'll probably try killing some soldiers, some civilians anyway - hell, who can predict what a religious nutsack will do?
But this will also give the terrorist cells the fuel to recruit and train new recruits as well, something that he WILL be DIRECTLY responsible for.
I heard someone political (completely forgettable so I can't remember who) saying that although this is a minor disturbance in the grand scheme of things, this little troll of one particular set of god botherers will never go away due to the persistent nature of the web.
So they've just discovered this little foible of the web? Then WHY in the name of ANY deity do the politicians and big business alike advocate we forget all about privacy when it comes to the Internet? They obviously recognize the drawbacks.
Two words that definitely do not go together mate. Hell, I have family who claim to be JW's (claiming to be the most tolerant of all religions) and they're pretty bad at any kind of tolerance.
Want to know who are the most tolerant people that rarely get into stupid arguments? Atheists. Simple really; when you think of the majority of wars in mankind you notice that religion is at the forefront. WW2 was actually encouraged by the pope's inner circle, in fact it is stated that their comment was "God wants them all to die"... yeah, 'not part of this world' indeed.
Funny thing that God/Allah/Mohammed/whoever is supposed to teach tolerance as a basic requirement of faith.
Um, has anyone invented one of these: http://ualr.edu/cjarnold/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/tesla-coil1.jpg that can shoot like one of these: http://wm.blem.org/img/unit/lightningpod.jpg yet?
If we know where he will be doing the burning, we could actually strike him down with lightning. Steep shot off of a building, it could actually look like the work of god.
I respectfully disagree, Sarah. A troll, if taken from the original etymology of trolling from angling before the AOLers got hold of it, is an action deliberately taken to get a bite or two. I think that describes quite nicely what this foolish "pastor" is doing. Both the media and Islam have bitten when ignoring the halfwit and his bait would have denied him his 15 minutes of fame.
Is that this insane, insignificant, god botherer has managed with little effort to cause a massive international storm of controversy. In a rational world, people would just ignore the loony (and the many Christians / Jews / Muslims just like him). Sadly, it's not a rational world and people will die because of this idiot.
I'm sure Marilyn Manson has burned and ripped up several bibles in his time on the stage and the world didn't unite against him.... well maybe back in the day but everyone's blasé about it now. I don't really care what you want to burn as long as it isn't alive.
Don't people realise they are only feeding the beast to make such a spectacle about it. If nobody complained it would be 15 people in a congregation having a fun redneck evening but now everyone's angry and the pastors message is reaching millions. It's the same deal with the newspaper articles with the pictures of Mohamed.
"...and Jewish text the Talmud ...".
I find it interesting: everyone is worked up about Muslims and Christians. But the Jews seem to be mature enough to ignore this nonsense and the ER correspondents to be either anti-semitic enough to think it is all right or just obsessed with hobby horses about Muslims, politically correct and naive slanging off of Christians and general ignorance.
Fascinating. Really should stop reading the sheer idiocy and nastiness published here; but it gives a horrific insight to the, supposedly, technically educated minds of the IT world, a bit like staring at a bad crash on the motorway. Ugh.
If the pastor really wants to kick off a genuine debate about the problems within Islam relating to the Koran and its use by extremists Islamists then he would do better to quote from the Koran rather than burn it. Quote those passages used by Al Qaeda and other terrorist groups to support their heinous acts.
Anonymous for obvious reasons. I am rather fond of keeping my head attached to my body.
I don't suppose we could get a little hurricane action around Gainesville? I might even pray for it tonight.
And yes, on the face of it this idiot certainly qualifies as a troll with his "oh, yes we'll go ahead with the burning unless God tells me not to" although perhaps not - what are the odds that he's got a dollar figure in mind?
Saturday evening is expected to be clear, except in the area around Gainesville, where smoke and airborne soot will cloud human judgment.
The possibility of violent thunderstorms can not be discounted.
Outdoor activities should be avoided late in the day.
Because of the potential for wildfires, any unnecessary outdoor burning is prohibited by order of the state fire marshal.
Personally, I hope that as this fool goes to strike up the match, a bolt of lightning flies out of the clouds, and strikes him dead.
That would be evidence of God's will.
So, it's deeply offensive to burn a Qu'ran as it is the holy word of God. Fair enough. But what about deleting electronic copies? Is that just as bad? What if ones eBook iDevice thing throws a digital tantram and you lose your copy? Is your eBook iDevice now going to silicon hell instead of silicon heaven?
I think that this whole sorry episode goes to show how ridiculous religionists - of both 'sides' - can be. Ones religion should be about ones personal relationship with God, not bricks and morter, ink and paper. Ones belief and faith should be in the heart, not in the physical.
For a non-religionist like me I only need one commandment - 'Be excellent to each other'. Neither strapping on vests made of plastique or burning peoples important books meet this simple commandment.
This man has no place in religious teaching.
If someone strikes your right cheek offer them your left and all that!
Is the aim not to show that your belief is less flawed - not "you target us, we'll target you more".
He's an embarassment not just to Christianity, but to all mankind.
I'm glad there's been such outrage towards these actions from the West.
On the other hand, I think outreach should be taken one step further.
For example, a Mosque at Ground Zero (even if it was Ground Zero and not just onlooking)... why not? Shouldn't we always endevour to be the best we can be regardsless of what other people/religions/cultures are doing?
Also... I can't believe that it only took to the second post to mention Hitler. What a ridiculous response - IF IN DOUBT, MAKE A COMPARISON TO HITLER.
Sweet weeping Jesus...when even Sarah Palin and half of your fundamentalist congregation are taking a large step back from your rabid intolerant nut-hattery, you'd think that perhaps, just perhaps, that's some sort of sign from God, right there, that you've crossed a line and then kept on running and you maybe should stop sometime soon.
What's with burning the Talmud, too? Some sort of warped middle-east peace attempt? He's going to get the Jews and Muslims to stop lobbing rocks at each other by getting them to join up in united fury and lob rocks at Christians instead? WTF? Really, just WTF?
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