back to article Microsoft bares Steve Jobs' Flash rant claptrap

Steve Jobs' credibility took another hit on Tuesday when Microsoft let the world know that its upcoming Office for Mac 2011 won't be fully based on Apple's Cocoa frameworks. In a blog post, as The Reg reported earlier today, Microsoft's Macintosh Business Unit (MacBU) noted that "we haven't completed the transition of moving …

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  1. jai
    Jobs Halo

    _major_

    obviously Mr Jobs doesn't consider M$ to be one of the major 3rd party developers out there, but merely a 2nd tier or lower.

    and to be honest, the less and less quality seen in the Office suite over the years, i'm inclined to agree with him

  2. Justin Clements

    Microsoft Office? What's that?

    NeoOffice on my Mac thanks.

  3. Sean Timarco Baggaley
    FAIL

    "We'll leave it up to you, dear reader, to form your own opinion...

    "We'll leave it up to you, dear reader, to form your own opinion as to whether Jobs was naïvely mistaken or intentionally deceptive."

    But MS Office is NOT a "major third-party app" for Mac OS X! Macs are primarily sold to the *consumer* sector, not to corporates—Apple couldn't give a damn about the latter market. (All those market share stats conveniently miss this fact.)

    MS Office is not an essential purchase for the vast majority of Mac owners. OpenOffice and iWork will fulfil 90% of most users' needs. For the rest, there's CrossOver, Parallels or VMWare, which let you run the Windows version of MS Office and avoid the file compatibility headaches to which the Mac version is infamously prone. (And by Microsoft's own admission, at that.)

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      context!

      Creative Suite is of course a very important consumer app of course.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Big Brother

      Re: FAIL

      "But MS Office is NOT a "major third-party app" for Mac OS X!"

      Apple's survival in the 1990s had nothing to do with Microsoft products, oh no! "We were never allies with Eurasia!" That's the great thing about the Apple "scene": everyone gets to pretend things were different, claim that the fruit conquers all, and to explain away any embarrassing dependency on non-Apple products. "I only have Microsoft Office on my Mac for the occasional work document!" Yeah, sure you do.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        WTF?

        RE: Re: FAIL

        "Apple's survival in the 1990s" was many years ago now and nothing to do with this article at all...

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Jobs Horns

    Steve Jobs' credibility took another hit

    What credibility?

  5. bojennett

    Get real, fellow fanbois...

    I'm a fanboi, but i find it hilarious how my fellow fanbois are defending Jobs here.

    To "Sean Timarco Baggaley", most people don't need CS5, either, so saying most people don't use Office and therefore Jobs was right in saying Adobe is the last major vendor to go to Cocoa is nonsensical. More Mac people may use CS5 than Office, but I can guarantee you most Mac users don't know what Adobe even is as a company, let alone use any of their products.

    Yeah, Jobs "screwed up" with that statement. But I'm not surprised Microsoft hasn't moved fully to Cocoa. To the best of my knowledge, Office 2010 is not fully ".NET" either (actually, is any of it .NET???), so it isn't like Microsoft is setting some kind of precedent here in terms of not using the latest frameworks.

    Heck, iTunes on Mac isn't even a Cocoa app. And until Snow Leopard, Mail wasn't in Cocoa, either.

    Basically, using Cocoa as an argument is a silly thing for Jobs to do. He should just stick to the fact that Flash on a Mac sucks (which it does), and that he has no faith that Adobe is going to fix it for mobile (which, from everything I've seen with the Android port, Adobe is struggling like mad to make it even remotely functional).

    One of two things will happen... either Adobe will fix Flash for mobile, after iterations of crashing Android phones, at which point Apple will let it on the iPhone, or they won't fix it, and Android phones will dump it and web sites will go flash free. Either way, Apple "wins". Adobe's the one with the gun pointed at its head.

    1. karakalWitchOfTheWest

      Hm...

      On my HTC Desire Flash never crashed my Android... But just my 2 cents...

    2. Anonymous Coward
      FAIL

      bojennet

      Are you still a fanboi if you ignore what Steve Jobs said and criticise the reg for a stupid article. Fishing around for reasons to attack Steve Jobs and Apple, this one is really scraping the barrel. No story here.

  6. Anonymous Coward
    WTF?

    64bit

    On a vaguely related note: why the hell does an office suite need so much memory it can't be 32bit anyway?

    And, how difficult can it be to move to Cocoa? I'm not a mac developer so don't have any idea specifically but assuming the main logic is separate from the UI (as it should be) it can't be that hard surely? OK, maybe it's not quite the same scale but I've moved .NET stuff from WinForms to WPF easily enough - and AWT to Swing in Java.

    1. Mark 65

      The title is required, and must contain letters and/or digits.

      "On a vaguely related note: why the hell does an office suite need so much memory it can't be 32bit anyway?"

      Why that'll be so you can memory cache more data from your uber-shitty user created Access database. Not on Office for Mac though.

    2. Gerhard Mack
      FAIL

      it's not just about the register sizes

      32 bit X86 is notoriously register starved and CPUs waste a lot of cycles moving things in and out of registers. When AMD designed their 64 bit processor they had the bright idea to actually increase the number of registers as well and that arguably offers more of a performance improvement for most tasks than the larger resister sizes.

  7. Walt French

    Gosh, don't Reg writers know how to read English carefully?

    So how is it that Microsoft's not having <b>completely</b> migrated to Cocoa in any way dispute the fact that Adobe was the last to move over? And, for that matter, why do you try to claim that Apple offers third-party apps?

    Some people might think this is hair-splitting, but when you say somebody is lying, you have an extra burden of proof. Aren't libel laws in the UK rather nastier against against willfully malicious misstatements, even if they were fueled by incompetence?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Flame

      Re: Gosh, don't Reg writers know how to read English carefully?

      "Aren't libel laws in the UK rather nastier against against willfully malicious misstatements, even if they were fueled by incompetence?"

      The libel laws in the UK are nasty, but I don't think you earn a great deal of respect for waving them in people's faces when they raise a valid question. The last thing any properly functioning society needs is a bunch of corporations suing people for questioning the public statements of those corporations' representatives, unless your idea of a properly functioning society is one where all anyone may do is applaud the latest masterwork from the "delicate geniuses" as they do and say more or less what they like, unchecked by public scrutiny.

    2. Jerome 0
      Boffin

      Explained

      Microsoft has not completely migrated Office to Cocoa = Microsoft has not yet migrated Office to Cocoa = a major third-party developer has not migrated their app to Cocoa = Adobe were not the last to migrate their apps to Cocoa.

      Simple enough?

  8. Eric Murphy

    Except...

    " Steve Jobs saying that the release of its Cocoa-centric Creative Suite 5 made Adobe the last major third-party developer to port its apps to Cocoa is simply wrong," except that he didn't say that. He said Adobe was the last major third-party developer to port its apps to OS X, not to Cocoa.

    Although I suppose one could argue that Adobe beat Quark—if you still consider Quark to be a "major developer."

    1. Ben Tasker Silver badge

      Agreed

      I posted the same thing last night, but it hasn't shown up!

      To me the full stop between the Cocoa sentence and the Adobe one seperates the context. In fact you could replace it with an overemphasised AND, but it would still indicate they were the last to support OS X (i.e. not Cocoa specifically)

      More Apple Bashing from the Reg, normally I'd support it - but there has to be a line. Lets call it realism (i.e. is it realistic to bash Apple because the author can't properly parse english?)

      If you want to bash them for anything, bash 'em for being arrogant cocks (sadly applies to members of both sides)

  9. Andy Baird

    Ummm...

    "Steve Jobs' credibility took another hit"? Perhaps, but I'd say Microsoft's credibility took an even bigger one. More than a decade after Cocoa's introduction, they still haven't gotten their act together. But then, given that Microsoft has lost half its value in that decade, perhaps that's not surprising.

    1. chr0m4t1c

      My thoughts exactly

      How long have MS been selling 64-bit versions of Windows?

      And the reason they're not making Mac Office 2011 64-bit is because they need to keep it compatible with the Windows one, which is also 32-bit.

      In the egg-on-face stakes, I think MS have won that round.

      Although to be fair, there probably isn't that much of a demand. My office machine is five years old and running a ten year old OS, it's due to be "refreshed" this year,but the new machine will still be running a ten year old OS.

      Progress? We've heard of it.

  10. Morpho Devilpepper
    FAIL

    And the real FAIL is...

    Rail all you want, Macophiles...in my office and on my web forums I hear all the muttered criticism of crapplication suites like iDon'tWork and Open Office, and when Jobsian cenobites think no one's listening, the gist of their rants is "it'd be great if this stuff was more like MS Office."

    It's not a productivity suite if it isn't productive, and the functional foibles of those programs are glaring enough that all the militant Applists in the world can't hide the facts.

    1. Eponymous Howard
      WTF?

      @Morpho Devilpepper

      Any chance of an English translation of that post?

    2. Anonymous Coward
      FAIL

      @Morpho, etc

      I dumped MS Office about a year back in favour of Open Office. I'm happy that OO and NeoOffice aren't more like MS Office, frankly.

      Is your real name Ballmer?

    3. Anonymous Coward
      FAIL

      RE: And the real FAIL is...

      Err, you!

      I'm not the first to say that your post was unintelligible.

      I've got Office 2004 for OSX. It sucks. It makes Office for Windows seem like it isn't that bloated. It's not that good at preserving table layouts when you save - and it has various other problems too.

      So all in all, I would never say "it'd be great if this stuff was more like MS Office" in fact, I'm more likely to say "Why is MS Office such a steaming pile of dog turd? Can't they fix it soon? They've only had 20 years to work on it"

  11. Captain TickTock
    Jobs Horns

    "Not that big of a deal"

    Nice :)

    1. Big-nosed Pengie
      FAIL

      Not that big a deal

      I fixed that for him.

  12. blackworx
    Go

    Wouldn't be surprised...

    ...if this article prompts a response from old Bonehead himself.

  13. famousringo

    Maybe Steve got the details wrong...

    ... but his point was that third parties take their own sweet time to adapt to changes in Apple's software and hardware environment. The fact that MS is even more sluggish than Adobe just reinforces Steve's reasoning for keeping Silverlight and .net the hell away from iOS.

    1. Steen Hive
      WTF?

      Oh come on!

      Not only have 3rd party developers in the mobile space have to "adapt to changes Apples software and hardware environment", but they have to track a multitude of frequent changes in the SDK T&C - any one of which could mean their entire product has to be thrown out and written from scratch.

      And on the Desktop, the source tree for the likes of CS5 is likely bigger than the entire Mac OS one, kernel and Cocoa included.

  14. rhdunn
    WTF?

    Huh?

    The Microsoft Office Suite is likely to be a very large code base, of which Mac is not a primary target (so will get fewer development resources allocated to it). Porting existing applications from one platform / toolkit to another is a lot of work.

    All this means is that Microsoft did not complete the transition to Cocoa for this release of Office. It says nothing about the credibility of Steve Jobs or the Cocoa framework.

    That's like saying that colour comics are not a credible media because a comic could not be coloured in time for release and was released in black & white instead.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Gates Horns

      RE: Huh?

      "That's like saying that colour comics are not a credible media because a comic could not be coloured in time for release and was released in black & white instead."

      ...and if every comic you released for 10 years was in black and white, people would perhaps start to look at the shiny colourful competitors, wouldn't they?

  15. A Non e-mouse Silver badge

    Two sides

    "We'll leave it up to you, dear reader, to form your own opinion as to whether Jobs was naïvely mistaken or intentionally deceptive"

    Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.

    - Robert A. Heinlein

    1. Sean

      Cock-up before conspiracy, you probably didn't know.

      Heinlein said "You have attributed conditions to villainy that simply result from stupidity"

      Robert J Hanlon - not in anyway related to Heinlein made the above quote, which may or may not be a corruption of Heinlein's version.

      I personally prefer Ingham's version - "Cock-up before conspiracy".

  16. honkj

    here is an idea...

    here is an idea Register, why don't you go buy an Evo, and tell us how many flash sites you get to before it crashes, hangs, does not work. and how slow it is... actually just do a nice round number of 100 sites, and split them equally between restaurant/business, games... video content... other... or so...

    then report back to us? was Steve really wrong about this or not?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Thumb Up

      @honkj

      That will never happen because they'd royally piss off their fanbase (all the anti-Apple-ites).

    2. Anonymous Coward
      FAIL

      @here is an idea

      >here is an idea Register, why don't you go buy an Evo, and tell us how many flash sites you get to before it crashes, hangs, does not work. and how slow it is...

      I have a Nexus running Froyo and 10.1 Beta - I'm sorry to inform you that Flash works really well at full framerates.

      Little point debating it anyway - its coming for every smartphone and platform except Apple's iDevices, so the vast majority of users have the choice to use it or not.

      Maybe folk will continue to pay for and/or download their RIA and mini-games as Apps but I think its doubtful - and so did Apple.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        FAIL

        RE: @here is an idea

        >> here is an idea Register, why don't you go buy an Evo, and tell us how many

        >> flash sites you get to before it crashes, hangs, does not work. and how slow it is...

        > I have a Nexus...

        Not an Evo then?

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          RE: @here is an idea

          >Not an Evo then?

          No, though it doesn't make the slightest bit of difference to how Flash performs on a near identical handset running the same OS, muppet.

    3. Jerome 0
      Boffin

      Flash testing

      Perhaps I'm just too trusting a human being, but I read honkj's comment as a serious suggestion for a test, not an anti-Android flame. Maybe that's just because I know my HTC Desire hasn't crashed once while displaying a website, with or without Flash. Then again, I haven't visited a vast number of Flash-heavy sites, so I'd love to see a test of the sort honkj advocates.

  17. Anonymous Coward
    Headmaster

    Simple mistake

    I doubt anyone would really expect Microsoft to be behind Adobe. Oh and jai - not a 3rd party developer, merely 2nd tier or lower? Wouldn't that make them 3rd?

  18. Badwolf

    Who Cares about MS anyway?

    Oh No the sky is falling - I can't run MS Cak on my Mac at full speed - lol - what a laugh

  19. ThomH Silver badge

    iTunes too...

    I think iTunes remains a non-Cocoa application. On the plus side, 32bit applications work transparently on 64bit machines — just like they do in Windows.

  20. Jeff 11
    Stop

    Macs not sold to corporates?

    Wake up and smell 2010 mate. Out of 23 of our customers, over a third of them primarily use Macs. Another 3 have them as part of their IT strategy. In small business I suspect that number is getting greater. So Office IS actually quite important, as Microsoft need to maintain their stranglehold of document formats across the two platforms as the competition increases.

    You're right about iWork though - it's fast and much nicer than Mac office, but it suffers from the same occasional formatting issues as OpenOffice, so regardless of the reasons why, there's still a place for the Microsoft offering.

    1. Dave 3

      nah

      Last time I checked, the most popular (UK) accounts packages were MS Windows only, so I very much doubt that Macs are becoming more popular with small businesses.

  21. Bob Kowalski
    Jobs Horns

    Incompetent or Evil?

    It's an Old Dilemma: Is he incompetent? Or, is he evil? I don't really see how Jobs can have it both ways.

  22. Ralphie

    What does this have to do with Flash & iPhone/iPad

    The so-called "Flash" rant by Stevie was in regards to not allowing Flash on iPhone/iPad nor using cross-platform development tools for the iPhone/iPad.

    Apple nor Stevie has NOT prohibited cross-platform development tools for Mac OS X nor banned applications not using proper frameworks. In fact, there is absolutely ZERO control of Apple over any software released for OS X.

    SO what is the point of this article then and how it connects Microsoft Office 2011 and the "Flash" storm?

  23. Anonymous Coward
    Alien

    Cue

    Loads of Fanbois claiming Microsoft isn't a major 3rd party developer....

    Skeletor can do no wrong.

  24. Ben Tasker Silver badge

    Erm....

    I'd interpret

    "Adobe was the last major third party developer to fully adopt Mac OS X."

    As saying that they were the last to release a Mac version of their product. Aside from the preceding sentence, there's no reference to Cocoa. I'd have said this sentence stands alone personally.

    I'm usually quite quick to bash Apple, but I'd say this article is just Anti-Apple propoganda. If you want to criticise them, do some research and find something worthy of criticism (there's not exactly a shortfall), but deliberately misinterpreting words is below you (or used to be)

    This is the kind of drivel I'd expect the DM to write.

  25. Rupert Stubbs
    FAIL

    Way to miss the point...

    Of all the possible angles to the rather minor story about the new Office being only 32 bit, you guys had to choose the most irrelevant anti-Jobs line. Honestly, is there ANY story that you can't spin thattaways?

  26. Big-nosed Pengie
    Linux

    Two bald men...

    ...fighting over a comb.

  27. Dick Head
    Dead Vulture

    So, let me get this straight...

    ...Microsoft misses a deadline (shock horror!) and this is an indication of Jobs' idiocy and a vindication of the Reg's crusade against Apple?

    The Reg's credibility continues to spiral earthwards like a paper aeroplane.

  28. Sean

    Jobs has credibility now?

    Apple lost its market dominance in the PC field when his primary competitor opened their hardware standards and brought us the wonderous world of mass produced clone hardware. Jobs lost his credibility at the same time when he couldn't get his head around the idea that high cost, heavily restricted solutions can't compete with cheap, open solutions that work just as well.

    It's increasingly clear that no matter how far we've come, Jobs still excels at making high quality products that will shape market direction, but sucks at everything else. He complains about the nasty, nasty world of people ripping him off, but can't seem to follow the notion that his companies corporate growth is largely due to the people who ripped him off growing the market with sensible business practices.

    Jobs should be packed off to a new product development division and never again allowed to speak to the press or answer an email without cue cards and a minder.

  29. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Meh

    Wake me up when any of the turd processors out there can typeset as well as TeX.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Stop

      RE: So, let me get this straight...

      "...Microsoft misses a deadline (shock horror!) and this is an indication of Jobs' idiocy and a vindication of the Reg's crusade against Apple?"

      Microsoft have had 10 years to move to Cocoa and haven't done it...

  30. Anonymous Coward
    Thumb Down

    Elephant in the room...

    The 64bit version of Office 2010 isn't fully 64bit either - it still requires 32bit libraries to work. So it looks as though they can't even do it using their own API's! Oops.

  31. Anonymous Coward
    Jobs Halo

    Who needs MS office anyway

    Personally I get by OK with IWorks and Open office, mostly IWorks though. Don't mind MS office on WinXP when I was employed, but I'm not going to pay £200+ for the Mac version or buy a copy for my XP under parallels. Since starting my own business I just cannot justify that sort of cost for MS products, and that includes Win 7.

    Back on topic, Does pouring over every utterance from SJ considered journalism now? I swear that sometimes the Reg is becoming the IT/Tech version of Bella/Heat/The news of the world.

  32. ukdeluded

    Well, bye MS Office!

    I couldn't work out why my Mac was running slow, then I removed MS Office from it, and it ran better again!

    All these things get turned into 'Fanboi' vs MS/Google/whoever, but in reality I use my Mac because everyday it works, and I need it to - my Windows machine I have great fun rebuilding, and my Ubuntu is great but I can't use my FW-1884 mixing desk with it.

    I moved away from iWork (which is fine but I just don't need most of what it does), MS Office (which is pretty but slow and I don't need most of what it does), away from Open Office (which is fine but clunky and ugly - personal opinion), and moved to IBM Symphony which I love - free again!

    The only thing I have trouble with is the lack of something like Entourage which works great with OWA. If another app could do that, I would never put MS Office back on.

    Another thing, I really don't care what code any app uses, it has no relevance to me at all, if it does what I want, I'll use it, if it doesn't, I won't. They could write it in etch-a-sketch for all I care.

    As for Jobs, well I think soon he's going to walk onto that big stage, and try breaking bread to feed everyone. Either that or make himself Leader Of The New Republic, but I don't own an Apple product because of him, I own one because I like my MacBook, just like I like my Sony laptop and my Dell netbook, and whatever make of TV I have, but next time I ned to buy a new laptop, I'll see what takes my fancy most.

  33. Robert Carnegie Silver badge

    Semantically,

    "Adobe was the last major third party developer to fully adopt Mac OS X." Meaning Cocoa.

    Apparently, Microsoft has not yet fully adopted Mac OS X. Therefore the statement "Adobe was the last major third party developer to fully adopt Mac OS X" is true.

    Maybe Microsoft never will fully adopt Mac OS X, how about that?

    Even if they do: currently I can say that iPad was the last interesting product release by Apple. The iOS 4 iPhone is interesting, but it has not been released yet. Therefore, the last interesting plroduct release by Apple was the iPad. (If you think the iPad is interesting. And that iOS 4 is.)

    Incidentally about iOS 4 ... I am not sure exactly what the length of time is - weeks? days? hours? - before referring to the newly renamed "iPhone OS" as "iOS", or to the not-yet-existing-in-public "iOS 4 devices" running versions of the new software version (I did that on purpose, draw a diagram if you have to), does NOT identify you as an Apple zombie, paid or

    voluntary. Obviously I consider that the time has elapsed, but I saw a boatload of people online who switched immediately to "We have always been at war with Eastasia", commenting on the very articles that announced the new situation.

    Which prompts the interesting reflection that if Steve Jobs up there on the stage had stuck the iPhone 4 up his best friend's ass sideways which when it went wrong he seems to have been this close to doing, would all of you Apple fans have immediately followed his example?

    (Boy, I'm glad there are hardly any iPads in my country.)

  34. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    An earlier version of MS Office

    Proclaimed its native PowerPC code (as opposed to 68k, needing to be interpreted on PowerPC Macs). Unfortunately, a utility for showing what sort of code was running revealed that the 'Welcome to MS Office' splash loader was PowerPC, but the actual Word/Excel/etc programs were pure 68k code.

    So it's not exactly new that Microsoft takes its time on keeping up with what's happening on Macs.

  35. Robert Ramsay

    To quote Cerebus the Aardvark:

    "Just because I caught you out in one lie, I don't expect you to suddenly become consistent."

  36. Matthew 17

    OpenOffice for me

    The interface on the newer MS products are just bizarre, you spend all day trying to figure out where they've hidden the thing you want.

    iWork is only of interest for Keynote which I think is particularly good, the rest of it is a bit 'meh'

    @Sean - Apple is a hardware manufacturer, they sell boxes and do OK, why would they want to stop doing that and become a software only manufacturer and get 3rd parties to make boxes instead, introducing all the hassle you get with compatibility, drivers and crashes?

  37. Hayden Clark
    Happy

    Office 95 code is hard to port

    Has anybody noticed that when you call up one of the less-frequently used dialogs, you get one that hasn't changed in years? I run my XP in "classic" mode, so you can easily see when you fall off the small range of new "ribbony" features, back into the old stuff that hasn't been skinned yet.

    Try "home ribbon"->Paragraph->little arrowy thing on the bottom right, or "View"->"Macros"->down-arrow->"View Macros"

  38. the mark...

    legacy software not ported to latest OS shock

    I guess they don't expect to sell the two licenses they'd need to fund the development for another 10 years

    I wouldn't have it as a free download

  39. Anonymous Coward
    Joke

    Microsoft and Cocoa

    "We'll leave it up to you, dear reader, to form your own opinion as to whether Jobs was naïvely mistaken or intentionally deceptive."

    Well, let's put it this way, Microsoft don't release software, they release jokes, so surely they don't need to be in Cocoa?

  40. Anonymous Coward
    FAIL

    RE: Semantically,

    ""Adobe was the last major third party developer to fully adopt Mac OS X." Meaning Cocoa."

    Er, no. (as other had already pointed out when you made that assertion)

  41. Henry Wertz 1 Gold badge

    Intentionally deceptive

    "We'll leave it up to you, dear reader, to form your own opinion as to whether Jobs was naïvely mistaken or intentionally deceptive"

    All I will say is, Steve Jobs is not one to let a little reality get in the way of how he thinks things should work.

    "And, how difficult can it be to move to Cocoa? I'm not a mac developer so don't have any idea specifically but assuming the main logic is separate from the UI (as it should be) it can't be that hard surely? OK, maybe it's not quite the same scale but I've moved .NET stuff from WinForms to WPF easily enough - and AWT to Swing in Java."

    VERRRY difficult. First off, Cocoa uses ObjectiveC, not C or C++; you ported a .NET app and a Java app to a .NET app and a Java app using different toolkits, you did not port to a different language. Secondly, Office is an unholy mess -- there are bloggers that have posted over the years that worked on the Office code, there's code going back to the 80s (not fragments but whole swaths of code), there were some modules written in assembly language code that they found they didn't have the source for any more, it's a serious serious mess, and I doubt it'll EVER be Cocoa.

    Welp, enjoy your fruit phones, I'm off to Android.

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