back to article Top Tory resigns on principle over 42 days bill

Shadow home secretary David Davis has resigned from Parliament in protest at the Commons' passing of government measures to allow police to detain suspects for 42 days without charge. Davis will fight a by-election in his constituency of Haltemprice and Howden on the issue of detention. He will stand without the full support …

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  1. Peter Bradley
    Go

    Go for it!

    Good on yer, my son. Not often I get to back a Tory, but for once one of them is doing the right thing.

    Peter

  2. Beelzeebub

    Wow!

    And I was considering many attempts at trumped up charges, to make a careeer out of it.

    ...dash!

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Thumb Up

    Hmm

    "Davis said he believed the work of politicians was a "noble endeavour" up until yesterday but viewed the Terrorism Bill ......."

    Strange really as before I read this article I had thought the (recent) work of politicians was "the scrabbling of unprincipled scum"..........

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Thumb Up

    Good for IDS, shame about the Tories...

    It's great to see a senior Tory highlighting the police state that this country has become and actually doing something about it.

    However, I can't hep thinking that IDS's course of action seems uncannily close to that of Edward Heath calling a general election over the miners' strike.

    I hope he wins handsomely, but the elephant in the room is "If re-elected, what will he then be able to do that he can't do now?".

    It's also very sad that the Tory Establishment is already distancing itself, stating that it's a personal decision, rather than giving firm assurances that they will repeal 42 days and dismantle all the rest of NuLabour's Surveillance Society.

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Thumb Up

    1 down

    600 or so to go.

  6. Andrew
    Paris Hilton

    So let's get this straight...

    Incredible - a Tory standing up against Labour in support of civil liberties, in protest at a bill which passed, despite an enormous rebellion, due to the corrupted support of a few supposedly principled Northern Irish MPs.

    Politics got even more confused yesterday. How long before the BNP set up a immigrant support centre to help educated refugees seeking British nationality to get to work and help us prop up our faltering economy?

    Paris, of course, cos she's a whole lot less confused than those leading our country.

  7. david
    Coat

    Be interesting to see...

    ...whether he has correctly judged the temperature of joe public on this . Some of the rabid hang 'em and flog 'em lot might thing 42 days is not enough.

    I don't know much about his constituency but any opponents will only have to whip up a bit of paranoia over furrners trying to blow them up and he could come unstuck. The biggest downside of that is that Gord can claim to have the popular support. Which might get him the impetus to try again if(when?) the upper house chuck this in the bin.

    Time to get in some popcorn and watch the fun...

    I'll get me coat and leave before I go into full on Twat-O-Tron mode ;)

  8. when_the_sh*t_hits_the_fanboi
    Unhappy

    BBC Coverage... shameful

    Typical of that snivelling Robinson numpty - sidestepping the issues being presented (Tony Benn's comment about being in Parliament the day "Magna Carta was abolished sets the tone I think) and instead concentrating on how Davis vs. Cameron is 'just like' Brown vs. Blair. I think he would have been better just keeping schtum for once. I wonder what the real news will say about it? Hopefully looking forward to Mr Snow this evening...

    I being to wonder if Nick Robinson actually understands that politics actually affects people lives and not just viewer ratings.

  9. Dangermouse
    Thumb Up

    Good Lord!

    Ethics? Principles? In a Tory politician? Have I fallen asleep and woken up in some strange pseudo-alternative version of the world?

    At least one of them seems to have a pair, then. Get's my vote next time.

  10. Anton Ivanov
    Coat

    Bye bye and thank you for the fishes

    And the answer to life, universe and where really "Al Qaida" is...

    42

    May Douglas Adams rest in peace

    My towel please (using the coat icon as there is none for a towel).

  11. Robert Long
    Alert

    Tory? Principles? What?

    I have nothing coherent to say.

  12. Anonymous Coward
    IT Angle

    Brilliant...

    It's only a shame the Labour Rebels won't follow.

    But it's a good day for democracy.

    IT? None but who cares!

  13. EmoSyS
    Stop

    Conspiracy or what?

    When i tried to go the conservative website for more information on David Davis

    http://www.conservatives.com/tile.do?def=people.person.page&personID=4881

    I get this error

    "Site Temporarily Unavailable

    We are currently carrying out server maintenance. Please check back later."

    And when i follow the wikepedia link

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Davis_%28British_politician%29

    I get this error

    "You typed in 'www.david-davis.co.uk'.

    This is either a KEYWORD or

    INVALID WEB ADDRESS"

    Obviously i have tried typing the direct url but same response. Given the reason David Davis resigned, Conspiracy or what?

    P.S You defo get my vote Mr Davis

  14. Mike Green
    Thumb Up

    Good on him...

    It's a fairly safe seat, but it's pushed the issue into the open, and we'll have to see how the public sides.... I for one fully support him.

  15. Anonymous Coward
    Paris Hilton

    There's novelty

    Tory, MP and principle all in the same sentence!

    Paris cos she never got banged up for 42 days, banged maybe...

    Efros

  16. Ash
    Thumb Up

    Good, and bad

    Wow, i'm amazed. Good on David Davis.

    Now the two main parties are so centrist and close to each other in policy that a politician has to resign from his party to hold any vaguely radical (ie non-murdoch) idea.

  17. Glenn Carter

    A politician with principles?

    I never suspected David Davis was in any way a man of principle. He's gone up a great deal in my opinion because of this.

    That said...it's equally possible he's well aware he stands a very strong chance of being re-elected. I wonder if there's any real risk to his seat.

  18. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    <no title>

    So he has resigned from his party because they support his views on a particular topic. Must be a first.

    Anyway I'd lay odds on that he'll win his safe seat back again. After invvoling all his constituents in the hassle of an unnecessary by-election. Still he got his face in the papers.

  19. Anonymous Coward
    Thumb Up

    Well done David

    We all have had enough of this Stalinist Labour Government that wants to get rid of every personal freedom and right, back dated to the beginning of time. If I were in his constituency he certainly would have my vote.

    A note to Mr G. Brown:

    I am not a F%^&£)g number, I am a free man !

  20. peter

    Bill has the support of 60% the public acording to latest polls........

    I bet if those 60% were asked the question "Would you mind being locked up for up to 42 days whilst the police desperately search around every part of you life, your family and friends for a reason why they arrested you in the first place”, the percentages might lessen somewhat.

    I'm reminded of Lincoln's quote about how, when he heard someone extoll the virtues of slavery, he felt the urge to see it practiced on them.

    (I don't know where these 60% live 'cos I have not met one yet)

  21. Dunstan Vavasour
    Boffin

    non Reg Readers

    While Reg Readers are familiar with the issues around Surveilance Britain, much of the GBP isn't. It really isn't very far up their list of things to find out about, certainly nowhere near who's being evicted from Big Brother. They have mostly swallowed the Daily Fail propaganda about Reds (I mean Islamists) under the bed and feel we have to "do something about the terrorists who threaten our way of live".

    What DD has done here is to precipitate a single issue bye election - a straw poll on civil liberties. What fascinates me is how the MSM will cover it.

  22. Sean

    Shows how crap the BBC are at reporting.

    At last someone fighting against this NuLab Nazi Government continually removing our rights all in the name of "anti terrorism". So how does "Aunty" report it - internal fighting within the Tories? WTF? This is not just over 42 days detention without trial, but ID cards, CCTV Surveillance society.

  23. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    < no title >

    <begin rant>

    Hmm okay may it is a loss of civil liberties BUT how would you feel if the law hadn't passed and some "brainwashed" fundamentalist came along and blew up your office / town centre and killed innocent people and it emerged that hmm we could have gotten him if we had more time, we kept working and proved it but too late to prevent this...

    That is how I see it, as for the Ulster MP's voting the way the voted - you forget they've all lived through not knowing if they will wake up the next day or when someone's going to try and blow them up or shot them because of who they are..

    He shouldn't have resigned really he had a point to try and make, no-one listened so the toys got thrown out the pram and he resigned.

    I mean let me think surely MP's are meant to vote for / against something based on what they believe in, how their constituents want them to as after all IF you voted them in, they have a duty to listen or is that just all lies and they just do as they please..

    The labour rebels are just idiots, some may say GB is an idiot too at least he's trying to do something to protect YOU the public at large..

    Hmm having seen MP's on TV, I've seen school kids better behaved.

    <end rant>

  24. W

    "Robinson numpty"

    Ex-ITV, innit. 'Nuff said.

    As for Davis. Kudos for him for giving the electorate a chance to give Labour a good kicking in the polls. Woulda been nice to see him defect to LD or Indie, but that's probably a bit much to ask seeing as his party opposed the 42 days. Still no chance of me voting red OR blue though.

    Meanwhile, I'm not the world's biggest Diane Abbott fan (to say the least) but her speech yesterday deserves to be read/heard by as many folk as possible. See http://tinyurl.com/5qrrfg - I've del.icio.us-ed the article and stuck the link in my facebook status. This Week should be an interesting watch tonight (assuming she's on it).

  25. M
    Alert

    Classic Catch 22

    I think this is very interesting.

    People are saying that the best way for Labour to combat this is to not field a candidate, however Davis will say that Labour don't even support their own 'important' right wing policies.

    If Labour do field a candidate (and in all probability lose), then there will be a clear perceived 'mandate from the masses' that they don't agree with the erosion of civil liberties.

    Davis will then go back to being Shadow Home Secretary, now an honourable and principled MP.

    Fascinating stuff.

  26. Temp
    Thumb Up

    Good on him.

    At least there's one who'll stand up for his constituents.

  27. Anonymous Coward
    Stop

    He actually believes in what he is doing

    You might find it hard not to be sceptical about anything said or done by politicians in this country, but in this case you'd be wrong. The man truly believes in what he is standing for as his past actions and statements will confirm. I saw him speak in private on the erosion of freedoms in this country. Dave Cameron's reaction unfortunately indicates that he's not nearly as committed to freedom as his former home secretary.

    His actions might be seen as fairly safe because he'll stand uncontested, but how else does he make a dramatic statement? He could resign entirely but that would be foolish, as any of us can attest once you are on the outside you have no voice at all and he's not going to change this country sitting in retirement at home.

  28. Anonymous Coward
    Thumb Up

    Good on him

    At least he has principles.

    Sad-sack Brown hasn't, even with the extreme arm-twisting & bribery that went on behind the scenes, they only managed to scrape through by 9 votes, yet still claim it as a "Major Victory". Pah.

    The sooner he's out the better.

    The sooner The Lords reject this, also the better.

  29. Charles Calthrop
    Unhappy

    sorry Grandad

    They get my vote.

  30. Matthew
    Thumb Up

    David Davis

    Man who was in the SAS, has principles and a funny name!

    Legend!

  31. Anonymous Coward
    Coat

    Re: So let's get this straight...

    How do you know the world has gone mad?

    It's when the world's best golfer is black, the world's best rapper is white, the French accuse the Americans of being snobbish, and Germany refuses to go to war.

    Add to that - when a Tory shadow chancellor has principles and stand for civil liberties.

    Me coat...

  32. Tim Bergel
    Stop

    @<no title>

    No, he resigned from Parliament, not the Tory party... mind you it does say 'without the backing of his party" ... but I suspect this may be incorrect. The BBC says he has full support from his local party and some support from Cameron.

  33. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    @Be interesting to see...

    "Some of the rabid hang 'em and flog 'em lot might thing 42 days is not enough..."

    Do they feel strong enough to vote against the Tory on this issue? I reckon the people who think this is appalling would vote against Labour on this issue, but that the people who agree don't feel strongly enough to go against every other reasons to vote these fookers out.

    So, you're a man, you view internet p0rn0, Jacqui's just made you a potential arrestable target for viewing the wrong type, but you agree with 42 days vs 28. Which issue counts more to you? The fact you can be locked up, and put on a sex offenders register, or the fact people can be detained for an extra two weeks before being charge (or not). I reckon the one that criminalized you is more important to you.

    Your kid is a teenager, and you suspect he smokes pot, although he denies it. Jacqui's made possession a criminal offence. But you agree with the 42 days vs 28 days. Does that make you happier that your kid is at risk of a criminal record over 'lethal' pot, knowing it's not lethal? Does that outweigh the 42 day issue?

    Do you want to see your teenage boy on a sex offenders register with a criminal record for viewing internet porn? Do you think that's fair? You agree with the 28 vs 42 day limit, but does it outweigh the other issue?

    Have you ever been stopped and searched under the anti-terror stop and search laws? Do you think anyone who has been stopped, would ever vote to let the police detain people without charge? Would they ever vote Labour again?

    The cumulative effect of this crap is to make Labour unelectable. As long as Cameron represents a change, then he'll win. I reckon Davis is pretty safe on this.

    I bet Jacqui Smith would never have the courage to do the same. She and Brown must know they're unelectable. They should have had a proper leadership campaign instead of letting Blair choose his successor.

  34. Paul

    @AC

    Erm.. he resigned from Parliament not his party...

  35. Iain

    Well, that's a first...

    Watched him give his resignation speech outside the Commons today and caught myself nodding at every word. My ghast is flabbered. A Tory with principles, who'd have thunk it?

  36. Anonymous Coward
    Gates Horns

    It's a trick... get an axe!

    It's got the LibDems to not stand against him, and libertarian tradionally-Labour voting bods on his side. He'll be elected on a landslide and back to being a c*nt immediately.

    OK, I admire the principle... but it's a Tory dammit!

  37. 3x2

    Good start

    Hopefully might persuade a few more will do the same.

    Switching off the Twat-O-Tron for a moment it really isn't terrorists I fear any more - it's my own government. Clowns in charge of live ammunition. Creating a State that the Ministerium für Staatssicherheit would be embarrassed to be part of.

  38. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Leadership move?

    So while I disagree with the whole 42 day detention thing, I applaud David on his principled move.

    That said, when he gets re-elected, he's going to have more Kudos with th public and fellow Cons than Cameron, is that the real objective here?

  39. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    @EmoSys

    if you are that desperate!!!

    http://web.archive.org/web/20070814175052/http://www.conservatives.com/tile.do?def=people.person.page&personID=4881

  40. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    @ Ranty AC

    "...how would you feel if the law hadn't passed and some "brainwashed" fundamentalist came along and blew up your office / town centre and killed innocent people and it emerged that hmm we could have gotten him if we had more time, we kept working and proved it but too late to prevent this..."

    You obviously don't understand the process. If they knew about such a clear and present threat, they could arrest the intended perpetrator and (before yesterday) they'd have 28 days to find something, *anything* to charge 'em with and justify holding them. In other words, if they hadn't got enough evidence to even charge after 28 days they subject would be released automatically.

    In my opinion, 28 days, even, is too much time. If the police had suspicions, a fortnight should be plenty to find something confirming *some* of them. There have so far been *no* cases inn which more than 28 days have been needed to find enough evidence to lay charges against the suspect, after which they can be remanded in custody. Why extend it by another fortnight? The criteria for charging someone are no where near as stringent as the criteria for finding them guilty, and the Police can work on getting the additional evidence once they've been charged.

    Your example doesn't even have the terrorist in custody. How the fuck would extending the time the police could've held 'em have stopped the murderer going off when they did? Get your head out of your arse.

  41. Nic Brough

    @AC

    >Hmm okay may it is a loss of civil liberties BUT how would you feel if the law hadn't passed and some "brainwashed" fundamentalist came along and blew up your office / town centre and killed innocent people and it emerged that hmm we could have gotten him if we had more time, we kept working and proved it but too late to prevent this...

    On balance, I would be absolutely fine - I feel that any victim of a terrorist is a sad, terrible, dreadful loss, but they're also martyrs in the name of freedom.

    I've been on the receiving end - I have had my office/town-centre blown up and had innocent people killed, including a friend. A longer detention period would have done absolutely nothing to stop the Bishopsgate bomb, or July 7th on the tube, both of which I was very close to.

    I would challenge you to mention a single terrorist case in the UK where if the police/intelligence services had been able to detain someone for longer, they would not have been able to commit the crime.

    The best defense against terrorism is not to alter what you stand for, and I stand for liberty.

  42. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    <no title>

    party / parliament / slip of the keyboard / makes no real odds.

    Resigned when his party was in agreement with him. One could understand someone resigning from government when disagreeing with proposed laws, but that is a different matter.

    Interesting "Catch 22" situation noted by M though. But there again, surely the public aren't so daft as to be fooled by that? There again, they might be (unless the polls that claim support for this law resulted from just asking cabinet members).

  43. Highlander

    WOW! A politician with principle!?

    Aren't they a dead species? The last politician with principle I can remember was also a Tory, Michael Heseltine who resigned a cabinet post in protest over the then Tory government's dealings with the whole Westland affair.

    Anyway, good on the guy, It's a pity that no one else had the courage to do this, perhaps then the legislation he's protesting wouldn't have been passed?

    You know, it's a real pity that our politicians no longer view their jobs as roles of statesmanship. Time was when more of the people going into politics did so for reasons of duty, or a feeling of wanting to make things better. Now it seems as though most simply want power. Curiously, I think that is what makes the House of Lords in the UK such a great balance to Parliament. Most of the folks there already have all the power they need, or were born to it. So their personal agenda is somewhat more based in duty and care that those who are making a career in the halls of power...

  44. Robert Long

    Ulster Unionists

    Why does everyone pick on the DUP when there were 306 other scumbags inthe same lobby as them, the vast majority of them Labour MPs? Why does the 9 at one end of the line get all the flak and the 306 in front get by on "oh, well, we knew THEY'D sell the country down the river"?

  45. oldredlion
    Flame

    @AC

    'how would you feel if the law hadn't passed and some "brainwashed" fundamentalist came along and blew up your office / town centre and killed innocent people and it emerged that hmm we could have gotten him if we had more time, we kept working and proved it but too late to prevent this...'

    So, they'd arrest someone AFTER an atrocity and need to lock them up for 42 days to find some evidence? Can you really not see any problem with that?

  46. Peter Bradley
    Thumb Down

    @ Ranty AC

    "...how would you feel if the law hadn't passed and some "brainwashed" fundamentalist came along and blew up your office / town centre and killed innocent people and it emerged that hmm we could have gotten him if we had more time, we kept working and proved it but too late to prevent this..."

    The same way as I felt when the Hungerford massacre happened. It was a really bad thing, but not an excuse to deprive every person in the country of some of their freedom.

    Peter

  47. Anonymous Coward
    Thumb Down

    Expensive Stnut

    And how much will this stunt cost the tax payer?

  48. Mike Richards

    Come on Tony McNulty

    Home Office minister Tony McNulty should stand down from his seat; immediately announce he's the Labour candidate and will also be fighting the campaign on the 42-day issue. Then we can see how the arguments really stack up.

    The prospect of seeing McNulty (a man with the face and personality of a cat's slapped arse) being bulldozed by David Davis would be a pleasure.

    Labour is screwed on this one.

    Today was going to be the first day of the PM's fightback, but now it's dominated by DD and the botched vote over 42-days.

    And it doesn't get much better for them. If Labour choose to fight the election; they will lose (they came third at the last general election) AND they face the prospect of having 42 days in the news *every* day (Guido is reporting that the Labour candidate for the seat opposes 42-day detention, so that'd be fun).

    If they don't fight then the Tories will make hay about Gordon Brown being afraid to face the voters.

    Jeez, I'm living in a World where I'm wishing all the best to a Eurosceptic Tory.

    Help!

    Just tell me Paris is still beautiful.

  49. Joshua
    Thumb Up

    I fully agree

    The man deserves a medal. To all those suggesting this is some attempt to challenge David Cameron, perhaps you've missed the part where Cameron has led the Conservatives to their biggest lead over Labour for ages. Cameron is not even remotely at risk of losing a leadership challenge.

    Davis on the other hand, clearly feels strongly enough about this to effectively take a demotion from the front bench. I support Cameron, but also support this decision based on principle. It doesn't fit the electioneering plan of the Conservatives, but some things are more important than winning elections.

    I hope he wins by a landslide, and Brown can stop gloating about how 60% of the electorate support the extension to 42 days. What this issue needs is a proper debate - and David Davis is forcing that debate, and we should thank him for that.

  50. Charlie Clark Silver badge
    Flame

    @AC

    "Hmm okay may it is a loss of civil liberties BUT how would you feel if the law hadn't passed and some "brainwashed" fundamentalist came along and blew up your office / town centre and killed innocent people and it emerged that hmm we could have gotten him if we had more time, we kept working and proved it but too late to prevent this..."

    You are a moron.

    Detention without trial does not prevent people blowing things up; it just turns the state into a terrorist. In the UK it was introduced as an attempt to deal with terrorism in Northern Ireland. Some of the terrorists in Northern Ireland were funded by Americans - NORAID - which made them "freedom fighters" to some people. "Freedom fighters" such as the "contras" are okay as they are not brainwashed or fundamentalist and the relatives of any they kill are bound to understand. Neither are the twats who think it's fine to blow up doctors who carry out abortions. Now, hand over your weapons and leave the rest of the world in peace!

  51. Iain
    Unhappy

    @ AC

    "how would you feel if the law hadn't passed and some "brainwashed" fundamentalist came along and blew up your office..."

    What a ridiculous statement. All the laws in the world won't stop that from happening if someone is determined enough. When will you people (who don't even have the bottle to give a name to your brain farts) realise that there will always be some nutcase somewhere with a grievance that is intent on killing, and there will be absolutely nothing that you, the police, the government, the security services and the secret service can do about it. If this Bill does become law, people will still die in terrorist attrocities in this country.

    Even given this, I still want to live in a country where the police have some evidence before someone is incarcerated. I couldn't care less about the things people might do, the things people read or the things people think. These things, which were until very recently the bedrock upon which our laws have been built, should never be a crime. I sincerely hope, in supporting this Bill, that you get the country you deserve (hint: try reading some Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn for a clue of what that might mean).

  52. Fatty Treats

    @AC untitled

    "BUT how would you feel if..."

    Come on man, if the police can't dig up *anything* to charge one with in 28 solid days of looking, there's probably nothing to find. If somehow nothign were found, but it really were *that* critical to hold them for longer, an emergency act of parliament could be passed to detain the individuals. Hell, if they're that dangerous, hold them illegally and sort it out later. Hold back a tiny percentage of the NHS/welfare state wastage, sorry budget, for compensating wrongly detained non-terrorists.

    The usual argument for holding people for >28days is that it can take a long time to get data off encrpyted drives &c. Well, witholding encryption keys is an offence now so that doesn't wash anymore. As soon as you find an encrypted drive if they won't give up the keys you have them.

  53. Clint Sharp
    Paris Hilton

    @dangermouse

    'Ethics? Principles? In a Tory politician?'

    Actually, I think you meant

    Ethics? Principles? In a politician?

    Frankly, even if I didn't agree with his politics or with his thinking on the 42 day bill, I'd still have to think seriously about voting for him, he's the first politician of any side who has won my respect by their actions. Most of them just seem to slime their way into the trough and bend over every time they are commanded to by their superiors.

    Paris, because I bet she bends over when commanded to as well...

  54. Elmer Phud
    Flame

    This is my money they are wasting

    So, Davis has left just to come back in pretty much an uncontested seat. Just how much is all this going to cost? Next time Cameron goes on about wasting time and money I hope he's reminded of this little farce.

  55. David Simpson
    Thumb Up

    oh dear

    Cameroon is going to need a spine transplant now.

    Can't say the challenge to Blair Mark 2 will upset me because it won't.

  56. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Tories,

    At least he's a tory in blue and not a tory in red. Besides as conservative as tories are they tend not to like people sniffing around peoples private lives becouse they tend to like the spicer things in life...

  57. amanfromMars Silver badge
    Alien

    SIS @ ITs AIResearch and dDevelopment UnderGround Works ..... *

    "David Davis ... By Matthew Posted Thursday 12th June 2008 14:00 GMT

    Man who was in the SAS, has principles and a funny name!

    Legend!"

    They do say once a KGB officer, always a KGB Officer. Commendable Sterling Effort, Sir.

    And what are we going to do Now? QMuI7? ...... for Quite SublLime TeleCommunications ......... AI Virtual TelePortation. ........ for that is Offered/Proferred.

    * Imagine IT a Blighty Skunk Works with Boffins in Virtual Turing Control and IT will Surely Comfort You? :-)

    Go on, Spoil Yourself .... and Believe what you are Thinking.

  58. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Brainwashed fundamentalist

    "Hmm okay may it is a loss of civil liberties BUT how would you feel if the law hadn't passed and some "brainwashed" fundamentalist came along and blew up your office / town centre and killed innocent people and it emerged that hmm we could have gotten him if we had more time, we kept working and proved it but too late to prevent this..."

    How would you feel if the man became radicalized because you kept arresting him without cause or justification? What if YOU CREATED the extremists by your abuse? How would you feel then?

    Think of the situation in Gaza, they suffer periodic bombings, tanks, shelling of beaches, bombing of power stations, deprived of water, and naturally that radicalizes them. When they are treated fairly the violence settles down. Israel got to a stage where it only suffered stone throwing at its troops (largely over the water dispute), they elected a hard liner, started responding to stone throwing with bullets and bingo, we're back to escalating violence again.

    Terrorism is a REACTION, it's a COUNTER culture, it bounces off the mistreatment of someone or something. So by creating mistreatment you radicalize and ultimately create terrorists.

    Now back to Britain, to the basis of our law, that survived centuries and far worse attrocities than happened under Blair. No punishment without judicial process, detention without charge cannot be accepted in civilized Europe.

  59. chris

    @Robert Long

    "Why does everyone pick on the DUP when there were 306 other scumbags "

    ... cos it's a Northern Irish Unionist party voting for Internment? Love to be a fly on the wall at the next NI assembly cabinet meeting.

    "Hey, Gerry, guess what? Wait'll you see we we're getting for xmas"

    "More money for schools?"

    "Yeah, that too...."

    (truck with large gold statue of Ian Paisley pulls up to door of Stormont...)

  60. The Voice of Reason

    Pointless posturing

    These suspects, if it were for a lesser offence, would have to be bailed, charged, remanded in custody or released without charge etc. However, due to the often complex nature of terrorist cases a period of 28 days was decided upon. This period can then be used to make further arrests and enquiries to root out the other people involved. Without this facility the 'terrorist' could not be lawfully questioned further except in exceptional circumstances.

    They don't call them 'plotters' or 'conspiritors' for nothing as they can weave quite a web, which may take a while to investigate.

    I do not know where this 42 day remedy came from but I am sure 99% of cases can be sewn up in the current 28 days.

    It seems Brown had something to prove by winning this fight but what Davis will prove remains to be seen.

  61. Anonymous Coward
    Paris Hilton

    Britain is a world leader in Surveillance

    For any doubting Thomases, maybe you should take a look at the 2007 International Privacy Rankings Report.

    http://www.privacyinternational.org/article.shtml?cmd%5B347%5D=x-347-559597

    We've walked blindfolded / hoodwinked into a surveillance society and the NuNazi government is looking for even more policestate powers!

    Does anyone still believe we live in a free country!! I know it is a democracy.

    Paris 'cause she knows what it feels like to have surveillance tape used in anger!

  62. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Blaming the symptom

    Quite agree with AC: Terrorism is a counter-culture. It doesn't happen unless you provoke it.

    It never was 'too late to prevent'.

    Loads of us were screaming (for example in 2003): "if you carry on like that, invading foreign countries (such as Iraq) and condoning slow-motion genocide in palestine, you'll just breed more terrorism", but we were told "No.. no.. we must protect our judeo-christian values/culture/bottom line at all costs. They're poised to attack us tomorrow with unspecified but terrifying WMDs. We have to act now!".

    What happens? More terrorism, and then we're invited to feel 'wrong' because we don't have an answer??? Hey: We had an answer, but you never asked, or if you did ask, you weren't interested in listening.

    We had the answer. We STILL have the answer: These 'terrorists' are a symptom, not a disease. The disease is western (mostly US/UK) foreign policy, and now (new!) we're already painfully taking the first steps past the oil peak, with those wretches in Haiti and elsewhere eating mud cakes to survive, so things can only get much worse (more riots, more terror), unless we all get a clue quickly.

  63. trackSuit
    Coat

    Hats off - and cyberSuits on

    And what are we going to do Now? QMuI7? ...... for Quite SublLime TeleCommunications ......... AI Virtual TelePortation. ........ for that is Offered/Proferred. By amanfromMars, Posted Thursday 12th June 2008 16:56 GMT.

    Anyone eager 42 please would do IT again, of course.

    Another politician from another party would do the trick and also halt the spin-cycle.

  64. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    What ifs

    How would you feel if your wife started an affair with a policeman and to cover his tracks he got you locked up for 42 days in which time your wife had all the time in the world to sell a sob story for the press, sell your stuff and leave you with nothing?

  65. Graham Marsden

    Ok, but...

    ... whilst it's nice to see a Tory Politician standing on a point of principle regarding our liberties, I have to ask where the hell they were when the *other* policies that violated our liberties were being pushed through?

    The Tories had the chance to vote against the Governments Extreme Porn legislation, but, instead of standing up for our rights, they decided that criminalising people for looking at "bad pictures" and creating a Thought Crime wasn't important enough, so they just abstained, when, if they had voted, the Government would have been defeated and a liberty protected.

    So pardon me if I think that, whilst it's a good idea that the 42 Day limit gets questioned, this looks like a piece of political grandstanding to me.

  66. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Grandstanding perhaps

    but at least it is something.

    And whilst this is going on, how does Parliament cope when a part of the UK is not represented in the House of Commons.

    The House of Lords hopefully will not pass this law, it is not needed and will just be abused. In fact the 28 days law should be repealed as well, I think that is the smoke screen here. They want to keep that one in place, so they stick more on and when it fails hope people think good another liberty saved.

    Whereas we are still left with the position that you can be held for 28 days without evidence enough for a charge. So, really you can be detained on a whim, which of course is not liberty or freedom, it is oppression.

    People are not bothered about terrorists, they are more bothered about the lack of liberty, we need more referendums in this country. That is what technology should be enabling, democracy. I cannot even remember the last referendum we had, but it should be the norm not the exception for anything that effects liberty and democracy itself.

  67. Lukin Brewer
    Unhappy

    Back when it was only 5 days,

    ...it was more than sufficient time for them to beat confessions out of the Birmingham Six, the Guildford Four and the Maguire Seven. If 42 days was long enough for a complete MKULTRA job - depatterning, new personality, false memories, etc - they wouldn't need to go to the bother of framing the suspects and blocking appeals; the suspects would confess in court, and maintain their guilt in prison.

    It would be nice to be able to trust the State and its enforcers. Unfortunately, their track record is not good.

  68. Onion

    @ AC

    'how would you feel if the law hadn't passed and some "brainwashed" fundamentalist came along and blew up your office / town centre and killed innocent people and it emerged that hmm we could have gotten him if we had more time, we kept working and proved it but too late to prevent this...'

    Think about the recent Exeter bombing - the brain-washed bomber who had learning disabilities and his handlers were known to the security services, almost certainly through communications intercepts. If this evidence was admissible in court, they would have been arrested, charged and imprisoned before his failed attempt. How would you feel if he had succeeded? Detention without charge would not have prevented the bombing.

    The security services claim there are hundreds of people plotting to attack us. They can only know this through intelligence - spies and intercept evidence. Our security depends on subjecting them to due process of law before they blow us up, not 42 day detention without charge.

    42 days is about Brown politically posturing and nothing to do with our security.

  69. Anonymous Coward
    Thumb Up

    Why don't any labour MPs have the balls to resign?

    First Iraq, now this... Again Labour MPs fail to show that they have any principles whatsoever and allow another their party to get away with another atrocity against democracy.

    Well done Davis for showing up the pathetic, unprincipled little dollops of turd that don't have the backbone to peel themselves off Brown's heel... I am no Tory, but if someone stands up for civil liberties and principles they get my support.

  70. Anonymous Coward
    Stop

    To all those in favour of 42 days

    Given that:

    A) an 80 year old man has been cautioned under "anti-terror" regulations for heckling at the political conference of a party which he was a long standing member off AND

    B) people have been arrested under "anti-terror" regulation for reading aloud the names of British war-dead near the cenotaph AND

    C) a local council has used "anti-terror" powers to investigate a family wishing to have a child admited to a school of their choice

    what makes you *even* think that it will be terrorists who will be locked away for 42 days without charge?

  71. Ben
    Alien

    Uuuuuuuuh......

    The D.U.P angle, the artlessly mislaid SECRET docs, Good ole Dave, still, at least

    the fishing industry is booming huh? Massive catches of the Red Herring are being reported by the BBC, Marcus Brigstocke has tried them and he now says they are "not bad" so "its all good",the righteous unstinting professionalism of our media can leave no doubts Shirley? aaaaaah ha ha ha ha ! I predict compulsory line dancing to demonstrate our compliance with the Axis of Dim to be introduced anytime now...

    "Have you COMPLIED? or has the bullet done it again"

  72. John Hyslop

    An example to the rest of them?

    When I was a lad, there existed the concept of individual responsibility, which meant that if a Minister or his Department was found wanting, resignation was the honourable reaction. In these days of spinning, jargon - abusing, quasi - quango social engineering micro - managing, gravy train jumping, self - serving, retro neo - socialist, stealth wealth - distributing, power - abusing, Orwellianly arrogant (2 legs better, etc.), taxation - hungry, power - hugging, one rule for us another for you, buck - passing, debate - dodging, sound biters, isn't it refreshing that one of them (either side of the House) is prepared to act on a matter of principle? I'm sure the local party (as opposed to Con HQ) will support him and I'm delighted the LDs are showing their support for his stance by not standing against him. We can all only hope that his action encourages the rest of them (all flavours) to consider their personal values versus the party line: I doubt any of them would actually have voted out the Magna Carta! Good luck, sir.

  73. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Internment

    If you remember internment (detention without charge in Northern Ireland).

    How did that work out? Was it.

    a) Good thing

    b) Bad thing

    Then there's support for terrorists, according to Senator Kucinich impeachment articles against Bush:

    "In June 2005 former United Nations weapons inspector Scott Ritter reported that United States security forces had been sending members of the Mujahedeen-e Khalq (MEK) into Iranian territory. The MEK has been designated a terrorist organization by the United States, the European Union, Canada, Iraq, and Iran. Ritter reported that the United States Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) had used the MEK to carry out remote bombings in Iran."

    Do you think supporting a terrorist organisation is

    a) Good thing

    b) Bad thing?

    When Bush comes to visit will he :

    a) Walk on a red carpet?

    b) Be detained for 42 days?

    If there is a protest group protesting his visit, will they

    a) Be allowed to protest because protest is a protected right

    b) be detained under anti-terrorism legislation, fingerprinted and DNA tested and held on trumped-up charges till Bush leaves?

  74. Anonymous Coward
    Unhappy

    "to create an impression of a swing away from Labour"

    There's no need to create the impression, there already is a huge swing away from Labour. They've shafted the country by wasting money fighting illegal wars and selling off our gold reserves and now there's nothing left for when the recession hits.

    I think the most hilariously ironic statement on this matter came from Keith Vaz:

    "As a nation we need to stand together united and strong, giving no quarter to those who wish to destroy our way of life"

    No, he wasn't talking about voting against the 42 days bill, he was actually suggesting eroding our civil liberties will actually be preserving our way of life!!!!

  75. Marcus Fil
    Thumb Up

    Unglücklich das Land, das Helden nötig hat!

    Overslept did we people? that aroma is roasted Arabica

  76. Ian Rowe
    Flame

    Re:"Robinson numpty"

    I must second this post.

    After following that link I am appalled that the BBC seems to have completely failed to acknowledge Diane Abbott's contribution (which I rate as far more important than Davis' admittedly bold gesture) especially considering she appears on their own politics show. I tried to find mention of her speech on the BBC website.. you can make out snippets of it from the 'key points' Terror Detention Vote page :

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7448341.stm

    I am left thinking that those snippets were included to stop conspicuous time gaps.

  77. Carol Yates
    Paris Hilton

    Magna Carta?

    What are these civil liberties that I am supposed to have lost? The only thing that remotely affects me is no longer being able to have a cigarette in the pub - and that is no big loss, except for the publicans because I no longer go to the pub.

    I find it truly ridiculous that Magna Carta is trotted out by the civil libertarians, Magna Carta enshrined the rights of the barons versus the monarch and had nothing to say about the common people.

    Habeus corpus is the thing and that has not been recinded, if after 14 days the police can seek an exception and get 28 days to gather evidence. The Terrorism Bill seeks to add the provision of another period of 14 days to this as an exception and as I understand it this has to be authorised by the Home Secretary. As far as I am concerned there are adequate checks and balances on the whole process to safeguard the rights of the individual and the safety of the nation.

    As for David Davis, the man has been frozen out by Cameron and has nothing to lose and everything to gain from the publicity of his action. He'll come back like Michael Heseltine to be the leader in waiting of the Tory Party. It's nothing but an ego trip.

    Paris because she knows the value of publicity.

  78. heystoopid
    Pirate

    Hmmm

    Hmmm , now a certain country in Europe enacted similar laws by Chancellors Decree after February 27th , 1933 and we all knew from history books written post May 8th , 1945 , how much that cost to end the evil regime that evolved rapidly from the application of all state imposed draconian laws post February that year !

    Sadly , should this bill come to be enacted in law then that is the day true Westminster Democracy dies in the land that brought it to light post restoration of a constitutional monarch all those centuries before the up coming fatal date !

  79. Anonymous Coward
    Thumb Up

    we want our ElReg Magna Carta Day please ;)

    can we have our "Magna Carta" day please, sunday is it?

  80. Richard Silver badge

    12 days has actually been enough every time so far.

    Shami Chakrabarty, of Liberty has publicly noted that in every case so far the police have not found any additional evidence after 12 days, even on the occasions where the suspect was detained for almost the full 28 days.

    Therefore, there is precisely ZERO evidence that more time is required.

    ACPO seem to want the extra time - but have no evidence whatsoever to back up their request. All they seem to be able to do is say "But terrorist plots are complicated!"

    Well, yes they are. But why were you OK with 5 days when the UK was under weekly attack from Irish radicals, and suddenly not ok when the radicals are from elsewhere?

    How would you feel if you were arrested as a terror suspect (eg http://gizmonaut.net/bits/suspect.html), then held for 42 days while the police desperately searched for something to charge you with?

    It gets even worse - so far, a major reason for extending past 7 days is that the police couldn't find a translator!

    In many businesses, especially the lower-paid sectors, not turning up for work for 7 days will get you fired.

    Being detained for 42 days and then released without charge would mean that you would have lost your job, your house, possibly your children, maybe your wife...

    This is a bill designed to destroy people's lives, not protect anyone.

    Detention without charge has precisely NOTHING to do with protecting the public.

    Would all those in favour of the measure, please give at least two believable examples whereby this measure would prevent an attack, where no other currently-available measure would achieve the same result.

    You can't, because there are none.

  81. Rob
    Thumb Up

    "Grandstanding?" Biased much?

    "It's hard not to see Davis' move as grandstanding". I can't see how it can be a "Grandstanding gesture" when it's throwing the Tory party into disarray and they're distancing themselves from him.

    People do still have principles and count them higher than all else. I'm really glad that someone in Parliament actually knows what the Magna Carta is and actually wants to defend it.

    Let's not forget the late Robin Cook who resigned from Parliament regarding the Iraq war. Was that "Grandstanding" too?

  82. Spider
    Black Helicopters

    how dare he!

    just when i thought i had politician sussed (all gravy train riding scum to be first against the wall) I find myself conflicted again. whether i agree with his stance or not I can for once say I have respect for him having the courage of his convictions.

    I have issues with 42 days, such as why only terrorist SUSPECTS (they've been convicted of absolutely nothing) should lose their rights i don't know. Why not serial killers, drug traffickers, paedos or people who listen to James Blunt? if it's that serious that we can set aside fundamental rights why not make it indefinite a la Gitmo?

    I have a damn sight more respect for him than the labour drones who spouted "well yes I oppose the principal, but now is not the time to attack the government..." the spineless, unprincipled scum.

    I know he's not taking much of a risk, but it is still a risk. We get a chance to argue enough on the relentless zombie like march to orweliian uber state, and for that if nothing else I say good on him.

  83. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Brave new world.

    Although I agree with Davis's position on the Magna Carta, I just wish he and the other lot would be more principled about the bigger threat... The EU!

  84. David Evans

    @Carol Yates

    You're missing the point. Magna Carta is usually invoked in these debates because that was the jumping off point for the concept of "English liberty" (sorry rest of UK), that continued to develop nicely for the next 900 years or so, until this government decided we'd had enough of that nonsense and decided to start rolling the clock back.

    As for your comment about the process; this is what's so ridiculous and shows the level of Brown's grandstanding; if the police felt they had sufficient evidence after 28 days, the law ALREADY allowed them to go to the Home Secretary for an extension (and of course, there was always the gitmo option). Brown is playing to the gallery; to flog 'em and hang 'em Sun readers, and the ACPO, and it does nothing for so-called "security".

    Finally, your comments about Davis; his stance on these issues is well established; since his party machine won't back him, he's chosen an approach that at least lets the public have a say on this single issue; an opportunity denied to us at the general election, where most of us subsume our uneasiness about erosion of liberty at the alter of economics, or can't actually tell the parties apart on this issue anyway. For that, even if you completely disagree with what he's saying, he should be applauded. Would that more politicians had his cojones.

  85. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    @Carol

    "Habeus corpus is the thing and that has not been recinded, if after 14 days the police can seek an exception and get 28 days to gather evidence."

    There is no rule that says the police can only gather evidence in the PRE-CHARGE period. Indeed the ACPO rep said that it takes 42 days to decrypt computers. No Mr Officer, an encrypted computer cannot be decoded in your lifetime, a decrypted one can be scanned quickly with a USB key that Microsoft provided to grab all the information of it.

    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/04/30/ms_forensics_usb/

    So the officer is telling me a lie on something I know about, and therefore I have good cause to suspect the rest is therefore a lie.

    "As far as I am concerned there are adequate checks and balances on the whole process to safeguard the rights of the individual and the safety of the nation."

    Good job! You protected the nation from people you're not even prepared to charge! Way to go! And even if you do charge them it's with 'Dissemination of Terrorist Publications" or "Encouragement to Terrorism", i.e. reading and speech. Yeh protect the nation from reading and speaking!

    Who will protect me from you?

  86. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Top Tory resigns on..............

    Point of public relations rather than principle surely? What was the principle in question? A vote his party didn't introduce or support, why is that a resigning matter? I can only assume that having not defeated the government another stick to beat them was required, and a one sided by-election is good enough.

    Do we have an icon for spin?

  87. Jaded CTO

    @ Carol Yates

    Here, here.. (mostly)

    Whilst i'd love to believe that DD had the strength of principal to resign, what Carol says is emminently more believable.. Lets not forget DD lost out to Cameron and has little to lose. He's put 'one in the bank' to dig up later when he can eventually challenge for the tory leadership. Whilst there's a small chance it'll backfire.. its a calculated risk and clever strategy.

    However, no matter what 'controls' are put on the 42 days.. I'm not happy with it. We've already seen terrror legislation used questionably, thats a much longer detention period than any of our peers. Is our police force so under resourced / incapable that it needs so long to decide whether to bring charges?

    I'm a little surprised to see so little cynicsm in the resposnes to DD's resignation, whats happened to us all, where did all this optimism come from ? remeber we work in IT?..

  88. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Court gives detainees habeas rights

    In related news:

    http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/court-gives-detainees-habeas-rights/

    "In a stunning blow to the Bush Administration in its war-on-terrorism policies, the Supreme Court ruled Thursday that foreign nationals held at Guantanamo Bay have a right to pursue habeas challenges to their detention."

    Gosh you mean Habeas Corpus is important?

    "The Court also declared that detainees do not have to go through the special civilian court review process that Congress created in 2005, since that is not an adequate substitute for habeas rights."

    Gosh you mean you can't substitute any other process for Habeas Corpus?

    IMHO Davis is a fooking hero, and Labour are too frightened to even field a candidate. According to the Labour rep presenting it, the bill represents the UK mood (they had a poll), but if it represents the UK mood why are they frightened to field a candidate and have a vote? Because they'd lose!

  89. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    @Carol Yates - Magna Carta

    Quite right, it's like everyone thinks they're landed gentry or something.

    The thing is when you lock someone up for a month and a half- probably releasing them at the end of it their life is destroyed. If that person wasn't a full blown terrorist but merely on the fringe then they're now motivated to become one.

    Given the political climate the people locked up for 42 days will be young central asian/arabic men when there's a press headline pointing that out, all young asian men will feel victimised - understandably - and will find themselves in opposition to the government. A bit like young afro-british men did in Brixton and Toxteth in the 80's.

    Whenever there is discussion of bombs etc on this site it becomes immediately apparent that many here have the ability. The only separation between us and them is motivation.

    This 42 days malarky will motivate people to kill us.

  90. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    @ Carol Yates

    While you're correct about the original intent of the Barons in forcing John's hand at Runymede, the Magna Carta has been a cornerstone of thinking in the development of the rights of Her Maj's subjects over the years. So it *is* relevant, since the current "King-equivalent" (i.e. NuLab) is now asserting that they have the right to abrogate Habeas Corpus.

    "...authorised by the Home Secretary..."

    Do you trust Jacqui Smith? I certainly don't. Not on a personal level; I'm unlikely to hit the radar for terror plotting, but to act on my behalf in detaining people? No, I don't trust her to act fairly. And I *certainly* don't trust any indeterminate successors, once the "climate of terror" has been exacerbated by a few more years of heavy-handed incompetence at home and abroad.

    They have the inch, now. Next, the mile.

  91. Kirsteen Fraser
    Flame

    Good on him

    At least someone had the guts to do it, though how effective it will be is questionable seeing as he is only in the opposition not the actual "government". Don't see many of Labour's MP's rushing to hand their resignation in protest as they stick their heads back in the trough.

    Its sickening we all have to rely on the House of Lords to protect the commoners which is meant to be the House of Commons job. Bastards.

  92. Anonymous Coward
    Thumb Up

    Hey - we need the money.

    In a tight IT market, us software consultants need more government white elephants like the ID card system, the NHS project, and surveillance control projects to keep us in champaign and caviar. I mean, its not like any of the computer systems will ever work, so whats the harm?

  93. Anonymous Coward
    Black Helicopters

    The Murdoch Agenda?

    What is the Murdoch/Wade agenda in fielding that scum-sucking-mollusc Kelvin for the by-election?

  94. spiny norman
    Black Helicopters

    A Place in the Sun

    Kelvin MacKenzie may stand against Davis, with the backing of Rupert Murdoch. Well, at least now we know who is really running the country, if we were ever in any doubt.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/jun/13/daviddavis.conservatives1

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Eaerlier MacKenzie told BBC Radio 4's Today programme that there were two reasons he could run. "One is that the Sun is very, very hostile to David Davis because of his 28-day stand, and the Sun has always been up for 42 days, or perhaps even 420 days, frankly. And secondly this is a bizarre cost to the taxpayer."

    He said that if he stood it would be with the backing of Rupert Murdoch, the head of News International, which publishes the Sun, and Rebekah Wade, the paper's editor, who both felt "that democracy would not be best served by a walkover".

  95. James Anderson Silver badge
    Unhappy

    42 days ?

    Why bother?

    Presumibly the police would have a mdocum of evidence before they hauled someone in for 42 days, but, a modicum of evidence is all you need to charge someone and have them held on remand for years.

    So all this fuss and bother is really just about skipping a couple of hours procedural stuff. Plod presents the blaggard to the beak, beak listens to his lawyer say what an upstanding saintly citizen he is, listens to CPS lawyer say he is the most evil person since Simon Cowel, then the beak packs the wretch off to chokey.

    You have to wonder why the home office is so set on all these laws that no-one wants or needs, and, why the polititians listen to them?

    I know the standards are low but getting to be Prime Minister or Home Secretary does require some degree of political competence - none of which is evident in thier handling of ID cards, 42 days detention etc.

    Makes you wonder is some civil servant has a video of Gordon engaging in ovine sex or cheering on the England team.

  96. Roger Pearse

    More should do so

    We don't get a voice between elections. So politicians should be encouraged to do this, and put their jobs on the line.

    Interesting to hear all the political classes sneering at him, terrified of anything like popular votes on policies.

  97. D
    Flame

    I find it deeply worrying

    that I'm congratulating a tory online for doing anything other than ending his own life whilst at the same time I'm condemning the fascist labour government.

    Can we please encourage all 600 + of these dipshits to resign, and get some people in who don't piss their pants and cancel our basic rights because some pratt sets fire to himself at an airport and gets punched in the gob. Back in the day we used to have competant terrorists like the IRA (funded by the USA), who really knew how to blow the shit out of a city and we still managed maintain most of our basic freedoms and right to privacy despite the fact that there was a much more significant threat to our lives and property.

  98. Brian Morrison
    Boffin

    Checks and balances?

    @Carol Yates

    Do you seriously believe that checks and balances will work in the case of deciding whether to enable the extra 14 days detention? The people doing the checking are inside the tent and will have official positions to maintain, they won't be rocking any boats.

    What you want for that job are independently minded people where the establishment has no hold over them at all, then they can act in accordance with the evidence. Governments hate this sort of independence, it's why they nobble every enquiry and constrain its terms of reference so only what they want is considered and the people investigating know to whom they need to tug their forelocks.

    I fail to see why the police cannot continue to investigate after a charge has been brought, that way people know at least some of what they are facing immediately. It's not as if people arrested for these types of crime are going to be bailed, if there is no immediate evidence of wrongdoing then it probably means that they is none of any consequence. If the LEAs do their job properly they would know what is under way before making an arrest, as it stands these long detentions are fishing expeditions.

    A faceless man, because that's what the accusers of the detained will be.

  99. Phil A
    Coat

    Can't have resigned

    It's actually illegal for an MP to resign. However an ancient law says that if they are appointed to an "office of profit under the Crown" they are disqualified as an MP. So, the offices of "Steward of the Chiltern Hundreds" and "Steward of the Manor of Northstead" are used as nominal titles. The current incumbent of the Chiltern Hundreds is Tony Blair, Northstead is Boris Johnson. Since these are normally used alternately, David Davis will probably take Tony's job just like David Cameron will take Gordy's in the not too distant future...

    Mine's the anorak - Tory blue of course...

  100. Simon Painter
    Stop

    Democracy?

    We don't live in a democracy if we have an unelected leader who coerces the parliment into passing laws and may either use the parliment act to force this issue through the Lords (as they did with the fox hunting debarcle) or just continue to disband the Lords by removing the hereditary peers who normally provide a sanity check against stupid laws such as this.

    Brown needs to go *NOW* and I am all for a military coup led by the monarchy to regain control of this country and force a general election.

    (The reason the revolting labour back benchers have not resigned in protest is that they know they would not be re-elected).

  101. Fragula The Furry
    Coat

    David Davis for PM!

    Wow.. I'm /lifelong/ anti-tory, but between David Davies and Barmy Boris, I think I can see the tories actually making a decent govenrment here! Stunning!

    David Davis has made a brave abd dangerous, yet stunningly brilliant move. He has moved the arena of attention from the political classes to real people. If he is re-elected with a landslide, and labour loose their deposit (we can only wish!) then a clear message is sent back to the House of Commons - YOU ARE NOT REPRESENTING US. If NuLabour's candidate wins, then maybe its time for people like me to emigrate. I am not a number - I am a free man - and I'm going to stay that way.

    An appreciative nod to the Libs for having being honorable enough not to field a candidate against him. And allso (uh-oh - paradox alert) to the BNP! (FFS!)

    Now the questions are, will NuLabour have the guts to field a candidate?

    This is going to show us how that small area of Britain feels about becoming a Police State. We have to rely on them to give this evil Government the roasting that its well overdue for.

    Either way the Conservatives win - Legend or Martyr, either way, it is a Tory that is making a stand for freedom - I wish I could vote for him. I - as of this post - am now a Tory!

    Candidate for Cardiff North - Thank David Davis and Barmy Boris for my vote at the next election.

    Mine's the rather incongruous biker jacket with the even incongrouser application for membership of the local conservative club in the pocket.

  102. Ross

    Re Carol Yates

    I totally agree that DD is just looking to get himself some column inches. This wouldn't be happening if he was in a swing seat. He knows his job is safe - the LDs won't oppose him as they agree with his stance, Lab won't because they know they will lose so it's best to just let him win by default and say "it proves nothing".

    However the 42 days issue is a BIG issue. Not 42 vs 28 - that means nothing. The fact that you can be taken from the street without charge, and disappeared for 4-7 weeks should scare you though. It's getting very South American over here. Yes the Home Secretary needs to sign off on it, but there is no public scrutiny as that might tip the terrorists off (so they say). So, it is possible to shut people up during an election campaign for example, or during a public consultation or state visit etc. Talk about burying bad news!

    5 days is sufficient. Yes, it is theoretically possible that someone may slip through the net and let off a bomb. That's the price I *choose* to pay for my freedom. Risk is inherent in our lives - locking ourselves (and others that are different to us) away to mitigate what is a tiny, tiny risk compared to others we face on a daily basis is not the way forward for a progressive, democratic society. Roll on the Iron Curtain Mk II :o/

  103. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Brown nosed

    I want Brown and his brown nosed cronies gone too - and well done to Davis for standing up and provoking a debate.

    @Simon Painter - I agree, but even one million people telling Brown to get stuffed doesn't seem to be enough these days.

    He just buys votes.

  104. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Re. 42 days for decrypting computers.

    Since refusing to provide the password is an offence, then they could lock them up for that and spend the time decrypting away.

    So that's a spurious argument.

  105. Anthony

    Re: "Grandstanding?" Biased much?

    I think "grandstanding" is a pretty good way to describe quitting and immediately restanding in a safe seat ... umm, when he wins, what exactly has that proven?

    Labour and Lib Dems have already called the bluff and are not opposing. Hopefully no nut-job independents will oppose, and he will win by default; saving us all a lot of cash that would otherwise have been flushed unceremoniously down the toilet.

    PS I think this legislation is a disgrace, but grandstanding and wasting taxpayer money isn't exactly something to be proud of.

  106. Donkey

    Davis is a Pratt

    Most of the sensible people in this Island support Gordon Browns stance (on this issue) - that is according to the opinion polls. I certainly do. I would give the police the right to hold these people until they need to, more than 42 days if necessary. If a few innocent people get inconvenienced - tough. Rather that than a mad bomber is allowed out to take out a tube train or a bus.

    In reality no one's civil liberties are threatened by this except the suspects.

    As for fun boy Davis resigning, it proves nothing except that he is a media tart. Who is his resignation supposed to influence? Not Gordon certainly he'll be glad to see him go, and not David because he agrees with him.

    The by-election will cost in the region of £80,000 - what a waste of time and money the whole thing is.

    I hope K Mc K stands and whips his arse!

  107. Edward Pearson
    Thumb Down

    Well done!

    Good on this chap, and I wish David Cameron would just shut up and disappear.

    It's a real testament to how seriously fucked our political system is when the BEST the country has to offer is David Cameron, who is essentially Tony Blair in a bluer suit.

    We have two parties (that matter) and their policies are to do the same thing, in slighty different ways. I fail to see the difference between this and single-party state.

    Next stop, fascism.

  108. b
    Stop

    saving us all a lot of cash that would otherwise have been flushed unceremoniously down the toilet.

    I have a £12,700,000,000 non-functional NHS computer system if you're interested in paying for it.

    Get some perspective.

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