back to article Apple store detains teens for installing iPhone game

Four teens in Palo Alto, California, say they were detained and photographed by an Apple store after they downloaded a third-party application to an iPhone demo unit. The youngsters told Mercury News that a manager of their local University Avenue Apple store called for police reinforcement after discovering the racing game, " …

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  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Been there, done that

    Gotta love a store manager on a power trip who comes out with the first excuse in his head to have a go at kids smarter than him - in this case, 'hacking'.

    I'd hardly call downloading a game onto a phone hacking, and calling the police was a slight over reaction. Security, perhaps, to throw them out, but the police?!

    I've done my share of things when I was young to annoy store staff... like setting BIOS /boot up passwords on computers, then beating a hasty retreat.

    Just think, those boys could have been so persuaded by the fact that the iPhone could play that game that they'd buy it. Oh well, Apple's loss of some more Mactards *ahem* converts!

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Stop

    Tsk!

    I think someone better alert Mr Jobs

  3. Si
    Jobs Halo

    That'll learn 'em

    The only applications an iPhone needs are the ones God^h^h^h Steve Jobs gave it. The Apple Store employees acted quite rightly when they saw heathen software being loaded onto the Jesus-phone. Ex-communication from all local Apple stores was clearly the right thing to do.

  4. Twyst

    Get them in the dock

    Sounds like false imprisonment to me. Get those Apple bastards up before the beak.

  5. Danny Thompson

    Detain them?????

    The store should have employed them. They've obviously got talent that should be harnessed by Apple rather than crushed by some over-zealous store manager

  6. zaax

    so much for USA

    Going a bit totalitarian http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totalitarianism

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Mallrats!

    I know everyone will say 'oh since when do void EULAs get enforced at gunpoint' etc etc but I have sympathy with the manager, who was probably having a bad day before pinky and perky turned up and put several hours' work re-installing all the software on the iPhone onto his store's budget. A bit of old-fashioned policing is I know ignorant of the distinctions between civil and criminal law sometimes (or am I confusing UK and US legal systems there?) but without it our lives would be a preposterous and endless round of civil litigation.

  8. Jacob Lipman

    @ spineless teens

    I recall my reaction on the few occasions an employee attempted to "detain" me, in my teenage years. It usually entailed a simple, verbal response. "Fuck off." In the US (unless some goofy states have other laws that I don't know of) a civilian can only detain another civilian as the result of a felony.

    Grow a pair, know your rights, and defend them.

  9. Nexox Enigma

    Re: Mallrats

    """several hours' work re-installing all the software on the iPhone"""

    It hardly takes several hours to reinstall all of the software on a desktop computer, or even some servers. I work with people that can build a new Mac from install DVD to our full baseline software suite in 30 minutes. I would imagine that the iPhone is about as difficult and complex as plugging it in and hitting 'restore.'

    Plus, why would you need to reinstall all of the software just because someone installed a game? They weren't actually 'hacking', so it isn't as if there was any threat to the existing software. They didn't jailbreak it or anything like that, they just browsed to a site and hit 'install.'

    And notice that they were already out of the store when the manager got mad at them. Anyone with half a brain keeps on walking at that point, or calls the cops on the manager if he continues to harass you, since he really doesn't have any special status on the sidewalk.

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Ah yes - the tragic story of yoofs in Shallow Also with time on their hands

    When I was their age, I had to build my own iPhone by hand, every day...

  11. kain preacher Silver badge

    @Jacob Lipman

    "I recall my reaction on the few occasions an employee attempted to "detain" me, in my teenage years. It usually entailed a simple, verbal response. "Fuck off." In the US (unless some goofy states have other laws that I don't know of) a civilian can only detain another civilian as the result of a felony."

    Its called citizen arrest. If the have lawfully detain you for a crime and you run they can add resisting arrest .

    With that said I would told you have right to detain me or touch me. Take your hands off me

  12. Seán

    Kidnap

    Won't someone please think of the children?

    Hopefully they'll get a nice fat wad of dosh to compensate them for their harrowing ordeal.

  13. Adrian Crooks

    @Nexox Enigma

    I didn't see the part in the article that said they just installed the game by browsing an clicking install. If I saw unauthorized applications on the phone they I would wipe it out and start fresh, you never know what nasties could lie in wait for other customers to discover.

  14. Chris C

    re: Nexox Enigma

    "It hardly takes several hours to reinstall all of the software on a desktop computer, or even some servers. I work with people that can build a new Mac from install DVD to our full baseline software suite in 30 minutes."

    I'm sorry, but I have to call bullshit. It's quite clear that you have never had to wipe and reload a system. Anyone who tells you they can fully reload a system from scratch in 30 minutes is either lying or restoring from a pre-made image (which would be called a "re-image" not a "reinstall". Depending on how much software a person uses, it can take up to 8 hours (perhaps even more) to reinstall all of their software. Yes, on modern hardware. No, that's not an exaggeration.

    ------------------------------------------------------------

    From the MercuryNews article:

    "Earlier this week, the four teenagers said they were depressed about not being able to visit their favorite store again. 'I can't walk down University Avenue without going in there,' said Paly senior Daniel Fukuba, who camped out for the first iPhones last year."

    So he's depressed about not being able to visit a store, and he is unable to walk down a street without going into a store, not to mention camping out just to buy some overpriced tat. Sounds like this individual is in serious need of mental health treatment.

  15. Player_16
    Gates Horns

    @zaax

    Put a watermark M$ Windows symbol in their picture. And if they do walk in with their parents and are spotted, they are forced to wear a Windows sticker on their lapel... or a goofy hat.

    @Si

    Goddamn Steve Jobs!!

  16. Anonymous Coward
    Paris Hilton

    wow... they got it pretty hard!

    I'm the sort of guy who either browses a store with a couple of ubuntu live cd's ready for those unsuspecting machines. Or simply a password hack disk, ready to send the PCworld machine to Porno heaven. Never once have I been stopped or chased. Poor kids, I'm glad nobody ever tried that with me.

    PH, well, you know...

  17. Angus Ireland
    Linux

    @ all those complaining about the time a reinstall takes

    Nexox Enigma is right - at least where the iPhone is concerned.

    Here is the iPhone recovery/reinstall process:

    1. Press and hold the Home and Power buttons. Keep holding, even when the phone turns off. Let go when the iTunes logo appears on the display.

    2. Plug into iTunes and click Restore (Shift/Option click restore to select a custom firmware first).

    3. Have a QUICK cup of tea

    4. Return to find your iPhone, good as new and ready to go (well... After activation etc)

    Not hours to do THAT. So unless they plan to reinstall the core FreeBSD as well...

  18. Allan Rutland
    Coat

    re: Chris C

    "Sounds like this individual is in serious need of mental health treatment."

    He's a mac fanboi...nuff said isn't it.

  19. Anonymous Coward
    Jobs Halo

    Jailbroken

    To install a game on an iphone requires jailbreaking it, so they must have done that first. In which case it would count as hacking it and it's fairly legitimate for the apple store bod to get in a flap.

  20. Richard Kilpatrick
    Jobs Horns

    Bloody idiots in that store

    I've demonstrated a Jailbroken, unlocked iPhone in a CPW store in the past - not an Apple store, admittedly, but still firmly disproving the BS that CPW were spreading about the handset stuch as "no SIM card" etc. - and as far as I can tell it resulted in another handset sale, rather than a lost one.

    And it may even have resulted in a sale with a contract, since Jailbreaking doesn't necessarily mean you can't use the O2 contract.

    Sounds incredibly stupid of that Apple store, and Apple should be calling that manager in for discussions about the concept of "Public Relations".

  21. Andrew
    Linux

    That isn't anything to what I did :)

    Bored with my mate one day. Got the console up, run the unix folk bomb on an iBook it and left. No problem (Y).

  22. Jason Hall

    display models

    I thought the display models of pretty much any hardware would have to be re-installed/re-imaged (whatever) each day, thanks to the numpty public messing with them.

    What happens if a (possibly underage) chav photographs their nether regions, and another member of the public 'sees' it - oh nooooeeessss...... couldn't they sue the shop/management for displaying (child) pornography?

    It makes sense for the management to make sure the products on display - AND IN THE PUBLIC'S HANDS is cleared/cleaned whenever possible, because we all know what idiots the public can be :) In which case - no damage done. What's the problem?

    On a similar matter - one of the reasons I didn't end-up buying an iphone was the feature and software lock-in. So I bought as close to an open-source phone as I could (Nokia N95).

    What the hell is all this application signing bollocks?

    If I decide to install an application, then so be it. I understand it might keep all sorts of scary programs off my phone, but since there are freely available cracked applications available which somehow have been signed?!?!? and yet I can't install a simple bloody theme without getting it signed *somehow* WTF???

    Nokia is another phone manufacturer who can suck my balls (along with apple) while *they* decide what I can and can't install on *MY* phone.

    /rant over

  23. Anonymous Coward
    Black Helicopters

    Rotten spoilsports

    So does that mean I can't keep going into Apple stores and copying all their MP3/MP4 onto my memory stick any more then? 'Cos it's been working a treat so far......

    Pah!

  24. Robert Brandon

    Idiots

    I'll agree, if they just installed a game, the manager overreacted. But then again, the kids didn't have the right to install whatever they wanted on a demo unit. If the kid really wanted to show his friends what it could do, do it on one he owned. The Apple store guys were lucky it wasn't a virus or anything. This may start out as a game, but there can be a chance it could escalate to something much, much worse. I'm sure the Unabomber didn't just wake up one day and be like "Oh, I think, I'll blow stuff up today."

  25. vincent himpe

    Apple : worse then crack

    From the mercury news :

    Earlier this week, the four teenagers said they were depressed about not being able to visit their favorite store again. 'I can't walk down University Avenue without going in there,

    Looks like a serious case of addiction.

  26. Lee T.
    Boffin

    @Chris C re:re:Nexox Enigma

    i call bs on you calling bs

    i have many times installed a complete XP system including basic software (office suite, drivers, media software) in under an hour. What usually takes up time is if you have to download updates for everything, which is why i have a slipstreamed install disc, and a disc of software installers. OSX is just as easy. and in both cases you can shove the disc in, leave it for half an hour, then do your configuring, and with windows the configuring can be pre-done on custom install media (using nLite(free software)).

  27. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Yummy, unlawful detention..

    I had some fun once walking out of a US store. Paid, was about to leave the store when some uniformed oink wanted to check my bags (note, this is AFTER point of payment, and I'm out of the physical store in the mall). Playing along I asked him to identify himself, but he got very tense when I took out a pen and made note of his name and proceeded to threaten me that he had hold me and call the police if I "didn't cooperate".

    I am *really* the wrong guy to mess with on that topic (think "Do you feel lucky, punk?") but I was short of time so I straightened my back and only gave this guy a blast lecture on law and order at full military volume and pitch, right in front of all the customers coming out of the store. Normally I would have then called the police myself and have him taken in for impersonating an officer of the law, but I was short of time.

    For all I know he's still standing there, frozen.

    I positively *detest* little jerkoffs who equate a uniform to a personality, so one getting in my way is an invitation for trouble. It appears the smarter ones have learned to recognise that..

  28. vonbek

    Hello Apple Manager Guy! What is Demo Kit?

    Please. Do me a favour. You expect a piece of communications technology in the hands of youths not be modified in some way? The purpose of demo gear si to ...demo! If it b*ggers up you reset it. There is no data of value on the device as it is a demo unit.

    Regarding the financial impact of this...I would say that was moot as pressing a button (I assume that is the case for the device) to reset back to factory settings requires little monetary expenditure.

    The manager needs to be mocked for being a prat.

  29. Paul Ryder
    Stop

    Unlawful arrest

    "Its called citizen arrest. If the have lawfully detain you for a crime and you run they can add resisting arrest ."

    In the England and Wales a citizen only has the right to arrest if a indictable crime has is being or has been committed, or a person has reasonable grounds for believing so. Im pretty sure downloading a game to an Iphone is not a indicatble offence and no "reasonable" person would consider it to be hacking. Furthermore as the arrest would be unlawful in said circumstance, it would not be an offence to resist the arrest so long as reasonable force is used.

    I of course have no idea what the law would be in the US but would imagine it would be similar.

  30. Pensare

    Re-install

    Surely the Jesus-phone would automatically re-anoint it-self with the blood of Jobs in the event of a Judas Install? Let us learn from this blasphemy and anoint ourselves, unto the skies, that we may be cleansed with His attractive and tactile products once more.

    On a serious note, neither windows XP nor vista will fully install and update itself within 30 minutes, let alone putting on your office suites and other softy wares on. I can't speak for the Mac since I've never installed one.

    Going by how long it took me to reinstall my PDA once, and put the necessary software back on it could be a while.

    But then if you ran the MAC store you'd probably have an image which you flash them with every night to ensure that they are tippy top for the next day....? In which case you would be looking at 30 minutes tops, and they'd probably be doing it anyway.

    Its a poor way of justifying this supreme overreaction.

  31. Anonymous Coward
    Alert

    Uh Oh!

    I went into the O2 and Carphone Warhouse Stores in Macclesfield and set the Safari browsers to www.meatspin.com, what would of happened to me if I were caught! haha

  32. Anonymous Coward
    Alert

    Blue Box

    I think store manger should do some research on founders of Apple.

    Steve and Woz (the main man) and there BLUE BOX.

    http://www.woz.org/letters/general/03.html

  33. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    downloading games? boring...

    ?&FE40=0

    surely the best value-per-keystroke computer-shop hack of all time?

  34. Joe K
    Thumb Down

    For fucks sake

    Kids like games.

    Kids test out if games work ok on demo unit, if so will probably buy a phone.

    Manager overreacts, sales lost.

    Its not their fault it takes a jailbreak. No "official" games have yet been shat out by Jobs minions, but after just a visit to a jailbreakme.com a whole new world opens up.

  35. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Mugshots

    Did the teens (minors?) sign a model release form before the pics were circulated, or were they just for the managers private collection?

  36. Anonymous Coward
    Boffin

    Reminds me of the good old days of BBC Bs and Vic20s

    when a few minutes' work in any branch of Dixon's would result in whole shelves of monitors resolutely scrolling the words I AM SKILL, with minimal detention at the hands of store detectives

  37. Graham Lockley

    @ac

    You just knew i would have to find out what was at meatspin didnt you !!!

    Please DO carry out your threat and then video the customers/staff reactions LOL

  38. Anonymous Coward
    Thumb Down

    What's the fuss about?

    Heck, it was a demo unit. If you leave any hardware device around for the great unwashed (and IT literate) to tinker with you'd better be prepared to sanitise it by re-installing everything when they've finished. Basic hygiene really.

  39. Martin Usher

    Several Hours' Work to Rebuild the Software?

    I didn't know the iPhone ran Windows....

    Same with the comment about viruses. Surely not on the j-Phone? Or even on anything remotely fruity.

    What this is saying is a lot about how we've grown so used to computers being vulnerable to exploits and taking ages to rebuild. Windows is truly the standard by which we judge every other comptuer systems. I wonder if the Apple Stores' Point of Sale systems run Windows....

  40. Simon C
    Paris Hilton

    Re: Uh Oh by AC

    >>I went into the O2 and Carphone Warhouse Stores in Macclesfield and set the Safari browsers to www.meatspin.com

    ....DAMN YOU, and DAMN MY NAIVETY..

    May I have the mindbleach please....or is there a cillit bang brain version?

    < Paris, because at least she is somewhat pleasant to the eye.

  41. William Old
    Flame

    @kain preacher

    > Its called citizen arrest. If the have lawfully detain you for a crime and you run they can add resisting arrest .

    And if you have been unlawfully detained, you can sue...

    @AC "Mallrats!"

    > A bit of old-fashioned policing is I know ignorant of the distinctions between civil and criminal law sometimes (or am I confusing UK and US legal systems there?)

    THere's no such thing as the "UK legal system" - there's one in England & Wales, and a completely separate and different one in Scotland (and, for the pedants, a third in Northern Ireland, which *is* part of the UK). Scotland's civil and criminal legal system is unique. Until a few years ago, police officers in E&W had no jurisdiction whatsoever in Scotland, and vice versa.

  42. Adam Johnston
    Flame

    @Nexox Enigma

    'It can take up to 8 hours (perhaps even more) to reinstall all of their software'

    I guess you must pay/get-paid by the hour then... if you can't figure out how to do a vanilla install of windows or a modern linux distro in 30-60 min then you obviously know nothing about IT and hence should not be reading this site. Perhaps you would be better off here...

    http://www.cutelittlekittens.com/

  43. SPiT

    Re: Unlawful arrest

    As far as I am aware the UK law for citizen's arrest requires that you be able to prove that an offense has been commited and have reasonable cause to suspect the person arrested commited said offense. It is not sufficient to have reasonable cause to suspect an offense has been commited.

    On top of that if the "teenagers" where under 16 then they cannot give consent to be detained putting the store in a very dodgy position. (Although in this case I presume they were older).

    I would strongly suspect that US law is different.

  44. Luca
    Thumb Down

    Job Vs Gates

    I don't know you but these days I like Bill Gates a lot more than Steve Jobs. At least Gates gives hundreds of million of dollars to research possible cures to common diseases.

  45. Stephen Hurd
    Stop

    Peanuts

    While it may take several hours to completely reinstall everything onto an XP system including updates etc, it most definitely does not require several hours of *work*.

    You spend five minutes, go do something else, spend another minute, etc. In all the actual amount of time you spend interacting with the computer is on the order of half an hour. It may take eight hours before it's done, but it doesn't take eight hours of work.

  46. Anonymous Coward
    Flame

    Mirror Mirror who is the most evil of all

    Apple of course and this is another proof. Kid Don't toche the cheap49.99$ phone, it might be worthless, but we are selling it for 600$.

    I hope this manager get sued for illegal detention, Apple should be sued let such a idiot (the manager) run a Apple store...

  47. Chris C

    @Adam Johnston

    "'It can take up to 8 hours (perhaps even more) to reinstall all of their software'

    I guess you must pay/get-paid by the hour then... if you can't figure out how to do a vanilla install of windows or a modern linux distro in 30-60 min then you obviously know nothing about IT and hence should not be reading this site."

    It takes a truly gifted mind to quote someone then reply with an inaccurate comparison, all while maintaining a condescending tone and an air of superiority. Since you quoted me, please do us all a favor and read the second half of that sentence you quoted. That's it, you're almost there... Don't stop now, you can do it... Yes, that's it, right there -- "to reinstall *ALL* of their software". I certainly can perform a "vanilla" install of Windows rather quickly, but that's not what I was commenting on, and that's not what the original commenter mentioned. If you cannot even bother to read what you're quoting, then perhaps it is you that should not be reading this site.

    But since you think I'm so slow doing a reinstall, how long do you think it should take to reinstall Windows, download and install the latest drivers for all hardware, then install 57 applications and 18 games? Here's a hint: longer than an hour.

  48. PH

    Messing with the Apple pies

    Though I'm greying nicely if I'm bored I still get a kick out of taking a screengrab of the Finder (couple of windows open, maybe) then setting that grab as the desktop pattern. Broken? Hilarious!

    A long time ago it was rumoured that you could POKE a Dragon 32/64 with a certain "smoke poke" and the showroom device would literally short-circuit.

    Ah, those were the days...

    /cardigan

  49. P. Lee
    Paris Hilton

    What were the police thinking?

    Why did they turn up?

    "Officer, some kids have installed a game on a demo phone we let them have! Quick arrest them!"

    "Right away, Sir"

    Paris would have done the right thing and played it.

  50. Tony
    Paris Hilton

    OJ

    US law is different - I mean, if it's fine for a major film and sports personality to shoot dead their spouse and her lover, then I'm sure these kids have nothing to worry about.

    PH. Because I didn't visit Meatspin.

  51. Kevin Johnston

    @William Old & @SPiT

    @William - The offence must be an arrestable offence for a citizen's arrest to give the arresting citizen any legal protection. Essentially unless there is clear witnessed evidence of damage/theft/violence you are better off following the offender whilst calling the police. In addition that will keep you further away and less prone them visiting violence upon you.

    @SPiT - Police in the counties either side of the England Scotland border have been sworn in under both systems for at least 20 years to ensure that people who choose to hop across the line after committing an offence can still be persued and arrested.

    None of which gets away from the observations that had said MallRats kept walking there was little that the shop owner could have done lawfully. He would have to be able to prove that they had caused actualy or financial damage. Of course the idea that you never let customers play with a live system without at least a hint of monitoring from a member of staff seems to have missed this manager completely.

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  54. kain preacher Silver badge

    citzen arrest

    @Paul Ryder

    In the England and Wales a citizen only has the right to arrest if a indictable crime has is being or has been committed, or a person has reasonable grounds for believing so. Im pretty sure downloading a game to an Iphone is not a indicatble offence and no "reasonable" person would consider it to be hacking. Furthermore as the arrest would be unlawful in said circumstance, it would not be an offence to resist the arrest so long as reasonable force is used.

    I of course have no idea what the law would be in the US but would imagine it would be similar.

    It is, that's why when I was security guard I was told you better make damn sure you can prove it or you can be sued and the company wont back you

    @SPiT

    On top of that if the "teenagers" where under 16 then they cannot give consent to be detained putting the store in a very dodgy position. (Although in this case I presume they were older)

    Age makes no difference. Its called citizen arrest. The Idea is that any citizen has the right to detain and arrest some one committing a crime . By that logic the police would need consent to detain some under 16

  55. Anonymous Coward
    IT Angle

    This is too funny

    I think back to the times I went into Boots and programmed all the computers (like VIC=20, Spectrum and so on) to loop for as long as was needed to move into the condom aisle and then beep all together.

    That moved onto trashing PCs in Rumbelows and Dixons (well they had no right to sell them) with a little fdisk of the machine whilst running Win 3.11 or 95.... causes a nice exception error/BSOD when the partitions have all been deleted ;-)

    But come on, these kids, high on consumerism and low on shoplifting skills were stopped and photographed? Upon what grounds?

    Another reason to not buy a Jesus phone. Or, like the Koran, have the Jesus phone in a little display case because spotty bastard teenage hands should not touch it?

  56. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    @Jason Hall

    Jason, try a Windows Mobile phone - they don't try to stop you using "unsigned" applications (well, they give you a Yes/No prompt encouraging you not to, but they don't actually block it) and for those where your carrier HAS done so, you can just plug it into a desktop and there's an official Microsoft-signed tool you can copy across and run that disables app-signature checking. It's awesome.

  57. Anonymous Coward
    Gates Horns

    @ Nexox Enigma

    Well, that's me just finished a marathon 9-hour reinstall of XP and my other drivers/apps. Okay- most of that was downloading time (all legal software/drivers, just a very slow internet connection). But that's still time that would have gone on the books of that store.

    Though at the other end of the scale, my WM6 PPCs all hard-reset in a couple of minutes (desktop - to - desktop) and I'd guess the iPhone is the same.

  58. Clay Garland
    Stop

    I know this is the reg, and the cool thing to do is to bash apple, but. . .

    I've dealt with people who have done similar things to this in my hotel before. The event liekly went down like this, a store employee saw the teens doing this, and politely asked the teens to stop and they refused. The employee called to store manager who probably asked the teens to leave, and they refused to do so saying something none too clever like, "It's a free country." To which the store manager, like the jewish jeweler in snatch, should have replied, "Well it ain't free shop, now is it, so fuck off." The teens probably refused still, and that's when the store manager called the police to escort them from the building since they refused to go without confrontation.

  59. Glen Turner

    Stupidity all-round

    I've been to that store. It sits on a pleasant street with restaurants and fashion stores. The Apple Store looks just like one of the high-end fashion stores, probably because it is.

    I can't imagine a fashion shop owner being upset about visitors with greasy fingers fondling the dresses, and I imagine the Apple Store owner was just as upset about the similar actions of the kids. Sure the dress shop owner can wash the dresses and the Apple Store owner can reprogram the iPhone, but I can't imagine either being happy about needing to do that. It also strikes me that the manager of the store rushed out -- perhaps not distinguishing greasy fingers from oily fingers, or Raging Thunder from something worse.

    Having made that defense, I felt very uncomfortable when I visited the store last year. The equipment was available for fiddling on the many presentation tables. I was happy about that as I wanted to touch-type on the MacBook and see if its odd keyboard was suitable (it wasn't). But whilst I was doing this I attracted a lot of attention from the staff. The overall vibe was although it appeared that it was possible to test the equipment, the reality was "look, don't touch" and the gear may as well have been behind glass. That difference between appearance and reality has been the recurring theme of my experience with Apple's products, and if only I had taken the hint I was sent in the beginning...

    The police seem to be the only people in this story who behaved reasonably (which is probably a good summary of their role in incidents like this). They listened to the manager, let him rant at the kids a bit, then let the kids go.

    The manager's photography is a bit over the top, but there's nothing to stop the kids from photographing the manager and putting that and a summary of their story up on some posters around Stanford, which would hurt that Apple Store more than the kids will be hurt by having to order their Apple gear over the net.

  60. Andy Worth

    @Clay Garland

    Sorry but that's an enormous amount of assumption on your part, considering the story alleges that they left the shop and were then called back by said manager before the police were called.

    It's got nothing to do with Apple at the end of the day, just an overzealous store manager.

  61. kain preacher Silver badge

    @By kindaian

    Get a court order or f$%$k off!

    It's a public open store, so bad luck! You have to suffer the wrath of the public actually entering the store.

    Otherwise, get a restrain order from the court.

    Now to get one you need to prove you have right to do so. And i doubt that they could do it.

    Nope, strange "in-store-policies" aren't valid, whatever they would like to enforce them.

    Um you wrong dead wrong. Its private property. Were do get the idea that they can't bar people because its open up to the public ??

    First time they are told to leave and they come back its trespassing.

    Second time they come back they can be charged with felony trespassing.

  62. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Police Help Pervert Photograph Boys

    Would be a better headline - and might attract Apples attention to sort this out before it becomes too embarrassing for them ! Perhaps it would discourage the local wooden heads from encouraging this nonsense too ! (But I doubt that.)

  63. Edward Pearson
    Flame

    Wow, they're lucky I wasn't there.

    This is amazing, I don't believe for a SECOND they'd have pulled this shit had it been an adult installing the game.

    How can they legally "detain" me? If I want to leave, then I'm walking out the door, and if a guy tries to forcibly restrain me he's either going to end up on an assault charge or nursing a broken nose.

    Has anybody else noticed the strange blurring of the lines between Corporations and Law enforcement? We read about the RIAA's cronies going on armed raids, and now Apple is aparently holding people against their will.

    These people think they're either above, or ARE the law. Regardless, it's not going to wash with me, and you shouldn't put up with it either, know your rights and tell these jumped up little sods to piss off.

  64. Greg

    I don't know what's more surprising

    That this happened or that you can install a game on a Mac! ;-)

    Seriously though, if PCW detained me every time I sabotaged one of their demo units I'd never leave the store!

  65. Aron A Aardvark
    Coat

    Kick 'em out I say!

    Good to read of a store manager who has contrived a flimsy excuse to eject some non-spending teens hogging the hardware. Don't see a problem with downloading altho it might give less intelligent customers ideas about installing their own apps, thereby causing the sky to fall in over Apple HQ.

    Further transgressions should be punished with a moderate beating with an Apple issue 'ibaton'.

  66. Anonymous Coward
    Alert

    Amstrad CPC464

    Setting up the Amstrad machine in the local Clydedale's to flash red and white and sound a (very poorly realised) siren the next time a key was struck was my personal favourite (had less of an impact on the green screen monitor though)

    Hours of fun was also to be had using the deltree command on any PC's that weren't password protected

  67. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Two points...

    1) They should not have installed software, but that is up to the shop staff to stop them. This idea that they were asked to leave? Rubbish. The phone should have been locked down etc, and have no battery (It stops theft, and it cant be beyond the whit of Apple to make demo phones) like any demo phone. All they should have to do is ake them to leave and then switch the phone off if they don't.

    2) I the UK a Citizens arrest alszo requiers a minimum level of crime. Something that has a minimum ouf up to 5 years in proson I think.

  68. Brian Miller
    Linux

    Trespassing

    Only in america is trespassing a crime. Technically there is no trespassing laws in the UK. There is a thing called "Ramblers Rights" which allows the public to go onto private property provided they do not damage, vandalise or otherwise devalue property. However businesses can refuse entry to people for no reason whatsoever (so long as they claim it is not based on race, disability etc.) It is also illegal to be on business premises after hours without prior consent of reasonable cause.

    Seems a bit confusing eh? My mother got let off on parking in a private car park (lots of tickets) using the ramblers rights arguement, however I was arrested on christmas day on a safeways multi-story car park with my new skateboard when i was 16.

    In the UK it is easy for a business to ban people from their premises, however by no means can they force you off the premises unless they have a licensed "bouncer". They must wait for the police to come and eject you.

    In the states it depends which state you are in, for example I believe in texas you can shoot any trespasser on your property with impunity. I don't think you could get away with that in california or some other civilised state.

    Hope this clears a couple of things up.

  69. Anonymous Coward
    Jobs Halo

    Pranks and hacks

    Holding up sarcasm sign...

    Nobody at apple would ever think about pulling a prank or hacking a device - that's just crazy talk. I mean, only the most careful and rule abiding types are involved with apple. Jobs and Woz never (really never) would consider, even for minute that it might be a hoot to pull off a quick hack here and there. I think a public flogging should be the proper response from apple in this case. Drag the kids to the front of store, put them in stocks and flog them. That's how apple should deal with pranksters and device hackers - in fact, this should be a retroactive policy!! Any apple employee reasonably suspected of hacking a device should be publicly flogged at their nearest apple store (with pictures of course). Hmmmm, who should we start with???

    Holy Steve cuz he'd never do that.

  70. Anonymous Coward
    Pirate

    So that would be genocide then

    What a load of crock bu @Two Points by anonymous coward. 2) I the UK a Citizens arrest alszo requiers a minimum level of crime. Something that has a minimum ouf up to 5 years in proson I think.

    I would not believe there are any crimes (except murder or possesion of a firearm) that has a minimum prison sentence, and even then with probabtion you are talking of 2 years inside and 3 years probation. UK Citizens arrest is for any crime - including shop lifting (which has a police caution as the punishment), otherwise whole stores would be emptied very quickly.

    Pirate icon because piracy probably also only accords a police caution.

  71. Anonymous Coward
    Stop

    @ kain preacher (@Jacob Lipman)

    JL:

    "In the US ... a civilian can only detain another civilian as the result of a felony."

    KP:

    "Its called citizen arrest. If the have lawfully detain you for a crime and you run they can add resisting arrest ."

    "Felony" is USian for "crime". His point stands: there was no statutory offense committed -- any offense was civil. Not a felony, not a crime.

    Citizen's arrest is only for felony. Hence this could be charged as wrongful arrest or kidnapping.

  72. VampyreWolf
    Dead Vulture

    I can't believe this BS about install time

    Most IT depts have disc images for recovery... takes a few minutes of work to pop the disc in and then to make sure it works after.

    Fresh install using nlite and slipstreamed with hotfixes, service packs and drivers on a windows machine again takes a minute to set up and then later to confirm the install... maybe another 15-20 later off of an install dvd with your normal programs on it.

    Recovery install from a previous date, or a repair install take even LESS time. So saying they're out hours of work is a load of BS. Here's your shovel.

    The last time I picked up a premade computer, I took knoppix and ubuntu cd's with me to check if it'd load. The staff complained and denied themselves the commission on a cash sale. Fvck em.

  73. Anonymous Coward
    Flame

    Analysis of store manager:

    -Frustrated store manager in a dead-end job/career upset at those 'darn kids' getting the better of him, whether or not the kids intended any malice.

    -Poor customer service skills and risk management skills, opening his company up for a lawsuit.

    -Poor technical understanding of the product he's feebly attempting to sell.

    -Overall a wretch of a human being.

    Solution: If you enjoy bullying people and not reasoning with them, get a job as a rent-a-cop security guard or in customer service at a cellular provider.

  74. wulff heiss
    Boffin

    @Jason Hall

    you know, there is a setting in the phone to disable this behaviour...

    TOOLS>Appl Mgr>Options>Settings> Software Installation "All"...

    RTFM

  75. Eric

    retail store managers are dicks and have no clue what they're talking about

    news @ 11

    as for the morons arguing about 15 hour installs for all their software or whatever non-sense, get some imaging software you scrubs.

    Unless apple are completely retarded (and im not ruling that out) it probably takes no more than an hour at most to re-image a stock j-phone.

  76. Jon H

    Photographing children?

    Did the store manager have the parents' permission to take photographs of children and circulate them around?

  77. ratfox Silver badge
    Gates Horns

    @Luca

    "I don't know you but these days I like Bill Gates a lot more than Steve Jobs. At least Gates gives hundreds of million of dollars to research possible cures to common diseases."

    The money he gives is money he earned by selling Microsoft products... In the end, it is money WE had to pay for Microsoft products... >_>

    If somebody takes all your money, will that make you happy if he gives it to charity afterwards? Bill Gates is still pretty far from Robin Hood...

  78. James
    Go

    @Jason Hall

    You know you can turn off the check that only allows signed apps to be installed? Sure, some apps *must* be signed by the developer but most don't. Signing means that the app doesn't need to ask you if it needs to do something potentially risky, turning this off means that you will manually have to give the app permission to do the risky stuff each time it asks.

    There is a manual.

  79. Nexox Enigma

    @ Doubters

    I was actually referring to the amount of time it takes my coworker to do a Leopard install from DVD. We do normally use images, in which case it takes about 6 minutes for a full install. I figured that OS X would be a good comparison, since we're talking about other Apple products here.

    Windows does take somewhat longer than OS X to install, because you can actually tweak it, and there are useful apps for it, and obviously my personal machines take longer than a standard user's box. 8 hours still seems rather long - I just rebuilt my XP desktop with loads of CAD and FEA software, in addition to all the standard utilities and clients and things that I use, which took a relaxing 4 hours or so. And my hardware wasn't exactly blazing fast 2+ years ago when I bought it.

    And a properly done Linux rebuild takes about an hour (Including a kernel configure / compile from scratch.) The excellent thing about Linux is that so many configs are just in text files, so you don't waste much time duplicating customizations, so long as you grabbed a backup.

  80. Colin Guthrie
    Coat

    @andrew: Re: folk bomb

    Folk Bomb? Is that when you play a folk song in iTunes and it attracts some local hippie types and they start to form a circle playing guitars and bongo drums? As more people arrive the music gets louder and the circle expands? (you must have seen the South Park episode?? - <cartman>Goddam Hippies</cartman>).

    I presume you mean fork bomb ;)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fork_bomb

  81. kain preacher Silver badge

    @AC

    "Citizen's arrest is only for felony. Hence this could be charged as wrongful arrest or kidnapping."

    um wrong. when you are detained my store security for shop lifting that's still consider citizen arrest. Shop lifting is not always a felony. There is no distinction between felony and misdemeanor crimes for which a citizen arrest can be made in California. This is California not the UK'

    "elony" is USian for "crime". His point stands: there was no statutory offense committed -- any offense was civil. Not a felony, not a crime."

    Christ you have no understanding of US law. misdemeanor is still a crime . The penitently or which is usually under 18 months in county lock up

  82. Unkle Al
    Stop

    When any person may arrest.

    From Ohio Revised Code, section 2935.04

    When any person may arrest.

    When a felony has been committed, or there is reasonable ground to believe that a felony has been committed, any person without a warrant may arrest another whom he has reasonable cause to believe is guilty of the offense, and detain him until a warrant can be obtained.

  83. A J Stiles

    Back in the Beeb days

    Anybody remember the BBC Model B, and the third-party disk interfaces which squoze more data onto a disk but weren't quite compatible with Acorn's "official" one?

    A mate of mine labelled up some 5.25 floppies as "Watford DFS Compatibility Checker V1.0" and persuaded a store assistant to let him spend most of an afternoon "compatibility-checking" various games. (All that was really on the disks -- for you see, there was more than one of them, and therein lay the key to the ruse -- was a simple sector-copying program, which would load into RAM and then overwrite itself with the disk supposedly being "checked" for compatibility.)

    Now, that was *proper* in-store hacking!

  84. Daniel B.
    Coat

    Oh please...

    Demo machines/devices are ASSUMED to be monkeyed about by the customer. I bought the "demo" Fujitsu Lifebook 280Dx back in '98 because it was the only one left, and they gave me a $300 discount for it. Sure the laptop was riddled with bloatware (someone installed the AOL stuff) but I only needed to chuck in the Recovery CD and wait about 60 minutes for the whole thing to do its job. Hard? Not at all.

    Around this time I remember having somewhat a similar experience: I was checking out some nice desktop PC's at Office Depot, and found one that had the shareware version of DESCENT. Oooh, nice! So I proceeded to play on it, until some employee came asking if I needed some help. So I rambled a bit on asking if the graphics card could do 1024x768 and 3D acceleration, knowing this dude would be hoplessly lost on this. (Note: all this info was already in the sticker that these boxen usually have.) So he went away, and I kept on playing.

    Lo and behold, he had gone for the manager (?) who I also asked the same thing, but instead of answering me, he proceeded to close Descent (whatever, I had just beaten the Level 7 boss anyway) and tell me "we can't let you play on these PCs". So I did my comeback, "oh well then I can't let you SELL me this computer, I can build one myself!". Oh yes, and duly followed by a complaint in the "Suggestions" box.

    Had I been "detained" by a store manager for something like this though, I think said bloke would've been introduced to my juicy little 50kV BOFH-approved TASER Gun!

    These days, my fun basically relies on having cmd access, and making small assembly programs that read something like "ALL YOUR PC ARE BELONG TO US" or so.

  85. kain preacher Silver badge

    citizen's arrest

    In CA a citizen's arrest can be made for:

    837. A private person may arrest another:

    1. For a public offense committed or attempted in his presence.

    2. When the person arrested has committed a felony, although not

    in his presence.

    3. When a felony has been in fact committed, and he has reasonable

    cause for believing the person arrested to have committed it.

    Oh and for the folks that say no crime has been committed read the DMCA

  86. Bryce
    Stop

    TL:DR explination of CA citizens arrest

    California Penal Code mandates:

    A private person may arrest another: 1. For a public offense committed or attempted in his presence. 2. When the person arrested has committed a felony, although not in his presence. 3. When a felony has been in fact committed, and he has reasonable cause for believing the person arrested to have committed it. (C.P.C. 837).

    California law allows citizens arrests when a citizen has reasonable cause for believing the person arrested to have committed a felony. In general, the arresting party must notify the suspect as to why he or she is being arrested, and may enter the building or private residence where the suspect is residing, using a reasonable amount of force to apprehend the suspect.

    In California, for example,

    "To make an arrest, a private person, if the offense is a felony may break open the door or window of the house in which the person to be arrested is, or in which they have reasonable grounds for believing the person to be, after having demanded admittance and explained the purpose for which admittance is desired. (C.P.C., 844). "

    Once the suspect has been taken into custody (by the citizen), it is the citizens responsibility to deliver the suspect to the proper authorities in a timely fashion.

    In California,

    "A private person who has arrested another for the commission of a public offense must, without unnecessary delay, take the person arrested before a magistrate, or deliver him or her to a peace officer. (C.P.C. 847)."

    bla bla bla...are you still awake?

  87. Anonymous Coward
    Alert

    crime or not

    The store manager has the legal right to ban the teens from the store (trespass), but he cannot legally demand they return to the store (no actual crime committed) and if he detains or tries to detain them under the cirumstances described he would be guilty of either false arrest (and liable for it), false imprisonment (if holding them at the store) or have to literally assault them to force them back to the store (another arrestable offence, itself). Furthermore, taking pictures of the minors and passing them around (whatever his intentions) would also get him promptly sued. The police sound like they acted in an appropriate manner considering the story, but that manager would be up shit creek if that had been my kid(s)...both on a personal and legal level.

  88. Scott
    Pirate

    Another shotp over reacting!

    That shop just totally over reacted. Bet that stuff happens in tons of electronics stores , you have to expect it

  89. Anonymous Coward
    Jobs Horns

    owner

    The Apple store clerks must be bored. Here's a good prank to keep them busy. Go to a desktop and take a full screen shot, (command /shift/ 3). Tell finder preferences to hide any drives on the desktop, tell dock to hide and move the dock to the left and lastly, make your desktop screenshot image the desktop background. The mac will look appear normal but the user will will be clicking on an image of the dock and hard drive icons and nothing will respond.

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