back to article Surge in encrypted torrents blindsides record biz

The legal crackdown and publicity blitz aimed at people who share music, videos and software online may be having an unintended consequence for the troubled record industry. The number of file-sharers disguising their BitTorrent activity with encryption is skyrocketing. Figures from a large UK ISP obtained by The Register show …

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  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    pc plod

    will ask them to make the contents of their torrent intelligible, otherwise 2 years in clink chummy. Make that 5 years if you're a muslim.

  2. Pete Slater

    Dangerous wording

    Some of the wording in the article, such as 'When encryption is used to cloak torrent traffic it tends to be to hide something' seems to imply that if you encrypt torrent traffic then you have something to hide.

    This is dangerous ground and I am sure that privacy advocates will have a field day with this type of story.

  3. kaiserb_uk

    Traffic shaping

    The levels of traffic shaping being applied by certain ISP's on so-called 'unlimited' services is another reason why people are turning on encryption in their torrent clients - we don't all want to download stuff at four in the morning.

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Alert

    ISP's at Fault

    As far as i can tell the only reason encryption is on the rise is because ISP's are restricting traffic. this is ISP driven not consumer driven the consumer is not trying to hide anything, just trying to get what they pay for an *unlimited* connection.

    after all data is just that! the customer will wrap it any way they choose, it wont be long before the next P2P arrives and packet obfuscation is enabled then packets apear as website email telnet voip etc, data packets how will the isp filter encrypted voip for P2P?

    Soon they will be in a right mess with any data on any port, not what the internet needs, but demand drives innovation!

  5. Paul Crawford Silver badge

    Own goal

    This has been predicted (and is so bloody obvious) and will lead to the situation where the only option the RIAA, etc, have is to pressure for a blanket ban on encryption, an unworkable option given the needs of e-commerce let alone working from home using a VPN, etc.

    The unfortunate aspect of this is the greater difficulty of catching kiddy-porn, jihadist beheading videos, and similar nasties.

    As for the option of 'pc plod' forcing you to give up your keys, if they differ each time, and most legitimate downloads become encrypted as well (e.g. LINUX distros, paid for or free copyright martial, etc) he/she will soon tire of the effort of going after them unless there is a very good reason to investigate, and not just a bland assertion that "so-and-so is probably stealing music/video/etc but we can't tell cause its encrypted".

    RIAA/BPI 1, Technology 2

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Black Helicopters

    Encryption to avoid throttling

    I believe the main reason punters use encrypted BitTorrent connections is to try and avoid traffic shaping from ISPs, obfusticating the contents of their transfer probably comes second, if it is considered at all.

    I am sure I am not alone in getting very annoyed at being made to look like I'm a "bad guy" because I use my internet connection as much as I like, in accordance to the "Unlimited" package I pay for. When I know that my traffic is being intentionally slown down it annoys me greatly - I don't receive any sort of compensation for it: I actually pay them to get in the way of my network utilization. It seems a crazy business-model to me for ISPs to actively discourage their customers from using their network.

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Coat

    Oh dear... Couldn't resist...

    Does Neil Armstrong view this situation as being one small step for the media industry but one giant leap for Torrent Users?

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Pirate

    VPN to the rescue

    Pipex use P2P traffic shaping on both unencrypted and encrypted torrent traffic, so naturally I now route my traffic through Sweden via 128-bit VPN for £4 per month. Suddenly 0.5kb/sec download at peak times jumps to my line max, and the promise of 'unlimited' is suddenly restored. Of course, they'll eventually drop the overall connection rate to counter this.

  9. Robin
    IT Angle

    Legal use

    I agree the encryption is most likely due in the main to traffic shaping. It seems to me the trend started right around the time the traffic shaping announcements came out, not around the time the lawsuits started.

    I turned encryption on when I learned my ISP throttles torrents, and I live in Canada where it's legal to download any music. I'm not trying to hide anything from the law - just from my ISP who wants to punish me from making full use of the service I'm paying for. I'll be switching to a different provider once I return from vacation.

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Coat

    Where will it end?

    Will there be a return to the bad old days when performers actually had to perform to get paid? Madness!

    It appears to me that the value isn't being driven out of music, it is being driven out of CD distribution.

  11. Gary McCabe

    Title

    "Our internet investigations team, internet service providers and the police are well aware of encryption technology: it's been around for a long time and is commonplace in other areas of internet crime."

    Its also commonplace in....

    VPNs.

    Public/Private key technology.

    Some forms of computer account logon

    Some forms of wi-fi technology

    https

    etc, etc, etc...

    Gary

  12. Anonymous Coward
    Flame

    shocker

    It's pretty funny really that Law enforcment and the fuck heads that seem to think they're law enforcment (RIAA FACT MPAA and all those other retards) are suprised that the more they spy on us the citizens the we citizens turn to hiding our activites.

    I look forward to the day where all communication is encrypted voip, email, im, secure transactions, and yes file sharing. I don't like the idea of people snooping on what I'm doing.

    Whether it is hard core girl on girl fisting, my latest revision of an xconq scenario, the newest episode of Minami Ke, a bootleg of a Momoi concert I was at in Germany (which Momoi herself told people to make), the increadibly anti social conversations between me and my mates on IM, the boring mundane conversations I have with people over email at work. I wish for none of it to fall into the hands of mr piggy and his hyper hysterical paranoid hive mind. I also don't want anyone else to know, becouse it's my bloody business.

    Sure it means bad people will do bad bloody things, but bad people have always done bad things that's why police are supposed to investigate things not just turn on their packet filter and search for the word "bomb". Do the police and other scum (sadly the police are now not only super paranoid but have huge political power to oppress us the citizens. The police are also just tools for the tabloid media frenzy) go through our mail? Check any DVD that is sent in the post? Sounds like communist Russia and China to me.

    I hate them, and I will fight as best I can to protect my privacy, my freedom, and that of others. Even if it means a few more people die in terrorism or are abused.

    Anon

  13. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Figures from a large UK ISP

    "uploaders swallowed just 20Mbit/s", so... according to adverts that's just one user right? Maybe 3-4 in the real world if you're pushing it. So how large was this ISP again?

  14. This post has been deleted by a moderator

  15. AndyB
    Black Helicopters

    Plod and keys

    The big problem 'the authorities' will have when, for a variety of reasons, people encrypt their data by default is that they won't know, a-priori, which packets are suspect. They (they being any one of CIA, MI5, RIAA, etc, etc) could spend months tracking down a transfer between and through a number of countries, obtaining warrants and court orders at great expense at each stage, only to find it was some bloke downloading the latest Ubuntu distro.

  16. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Re:Encryption to avoid throttling

    I thought those ISP's that do throttle, do so based on how much data you transfer?

    If encryption is the way round it, then clearly that's what they'll do.

    Of course you might be trasferring stuff over bit torrent that is copyright and you have the right to copy it, in which case the traffic snooper reconstructing the file would actually be in breach of copyright themselves. Not to mention that since this stuff is still the telephone network, bugging laws apply.

    I'm, not keen on this blanket licence idea, it sounds like I'm going to end up being forced to pay for something I don't want.

  17. andy rock
    Dead Vulture

    RE: Good Article

    i have to say i'm in agreement about the 'comments' point; even though i enjoy reading AO's articles, it points towards a reluctancy to debate.

  18. Anonymous Coward
    Pirate

    ISP's driving legit usage underground.

    so do ISP's cap the 'illegal P2P' service that the BBC calls winPlayer, oops typo, iPlayer.. HAHA @ ISP's - get your fingers out, people are demanding the supply! and now its not illegal, so stop your whining.

  19. Svein Skogen
    Flame

    DMCA

    I wonder if we can't use DMCA against them.

    If we enable a standardized key like "MAFIAA EXTORTION IS BAD!", and obfuscate it in some braindead way like ROT-13, and then use this as a static key for all our communication, with the intention of "blocking illegal copies of our traffic", couldn't we actually nail the suckers to the wall using DMCA? Afterall they _ARE_ buypassing a copyprotection mechanism! :)

    //Svein

  20. Garth
    Thumb Up

    RE:Good Article

    I never really reply to the DRM/music/RIAA sort of topics but I have noticed the Orlowski shows tremendous cowardice whenever I glance at his articles. I glance down from the inflammatory posts of his without ever seeing the author and see comment not enabled and realize it is the Ball-less Wonder again.

  21. bambi
    Black Helicopters

    The war is over!

    Looks like Joe Public has lost this war and the 'man' has won again, the same way he won the war on drugs, counterfit jeans, and terror....

    When will these ill educated people realise they cant win the man is all powerful...

  22. Anonymous Coward
    Flame

    @shocker/Anonymous Coward

    Sir,

    That was the finest angry rant I've read in a very long time.

    Respect,

    -Fellow anon

  23. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Re: JonB's comment

    'I thought those ISP's that do throttle, do so based on how much data you transfer?'

    so what your saying is my '8Mbit ADSL max unlimited' connection is actually 8Mbit until I transfer say 2MBits then it is *Limited* to 2MBit/s?? Really? so I should be happy that I got the first say quarter of a second at the rate Im paying for? or is is the first 4 hours of the month?? well Im not. Until ISP's start offering a service that 'Does exactly what it says on the tin' ie not bound by small print (aka fups) then as far as I am concerned they are the ones in the wrong. Trading Standards Take Note!!

    PS. Long Live Ronseal! Death to the fuppies...

    Dont forget to Leave your BBC iPlayer running it might hog BW but its legal make your point to your ISP!!!

  24. bambi
    Black Helicopters

    The war is over!

    Looks like Joe Public has lost this war and the 'man' has won again, the same way he won the war on drugs, counterfit jeans, and terror....

    When will these ill educated people realise they cant win the man is all powerful...

  25. Mark

    re: dangerous wording

    Uh the danger is only the media perception of "something to hide".

    My government has spying on foreign governments. They have something to hide. My bank has private information on me. They have something to hide. The Sony record has NDA's to agree to or to be agreed. They have something to hide. A reporter in China is sending messages out about government atrocities. He has something to hide.

    Hell, I'm a bloke with a willy. I have something to hide.

    The government may be legitimately concerned about the intent of a foreign body, so the hiding is legitimate. The bank may have to disclose my information to me, but they MUST hide it from anyone without authority. Sony must keep contracts confidential or be in trouble. The reporter could be incarcerated if he's found out. And if I wave my wily around in public, I'll be arrested.

    The danger is not the phrase "something to hide" but that it is now taken to mean "something to hide that they shouldn't be doing".

  26. Alex

    RE: RE: Good Article

    Agreed.

    My thoughts on this article? Because you were all dying to hear them...

    RE: The last paragraph.

    The protocol from The Pirate Bay won't materialise. It's pretty much science.

  27. Mark

    re: good article

    Heh, he doesn't even go after all big ditributors of illegal file sharing (preferring to lambast mothers who cannot afford many solicitors). He's still not reported on this:

    http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2007/10/30/fripp-lays-music-industry-rip

    EMI are selling downloads of King Crimson music and have no license to do so.

    Orlowski is oddly reticent in railing against them.

  28. Anonymous Coward
    Thumb Up

    Re: Good Article

    Bang on the money my friend, at last a halfway decent balanced view unlike the stuff usually served up on this topic by you-know who!

  29. system

    Encryption does not hide everything

    Even with encryption turned on for the client, the nature of the connection is not hidden.

    The client will have many outgoing connections to various IPs/ports, and a regular http connection to the tracker over which it announces exactly what it is doing.

    announce.php?info_hash=xxxxx&port=12345 is the only thing an ISP needs to effectively cut off the encrypted traffic. Blocking incoming connections is as easy as blocking that port. Blocking outgoing connections is a little more involved, but can be done by faking a tracker request then blocking IP/port combos that are returned.

    For proof of copyright infringement, all they would need to do is find the correct info hash on the relevant site and they will know exactly what is being downloaded.

    The only way to protect against this is for trackers to run over https. This will reduce the number of peers that can be tracked without some new hardware being bought for the trackers.

    Even with SSL in place for the announce, an ISP can still find your port from the unencrypted connections coming in. Even if you drop the connection, they can see a regular, unencrypted BT handshake being sent repeatedly to a certain port.

    Not that any of this matters to the mafiaa, as they simply invade the tracker as regular members and gather all the evidence they need, encrypted or not. If you seed a file to an mpaa/riaa machine, they have you.

  30. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    re: dpi

    if isps are using dpi to spy on us, why cant they use it to block as much mallware as possible?

    there are a lot of worms with a standard infection behaivoir that dpi could stop in its tracks...including the older stuff thats *still* seen in the wild. or am i missing something?

    and while im on the subject...

    blocking all out going access on prt 25? having a port forwarding solution where each isp has a random "input" port that then forwards at port 25? (rewriting the header?)

    or should i file that one under "overly simplistic" and "causes more hassle than it would solve"?

    discuss ;)

  31. Danny
    Thumb Up

    funny

    "When encryption is used to cloak torrent traffic it tends to be to hide something, and attracts greater attention for that reason. If certain ISPs are experiencing disproportionately high volumes of encrypted torrent traffic we expect it is partly in response to a combination of effective ISP abuse teams the enforcement efforts of the police and industry."

    This is pretty funny in itself, are we back at the "if you look suspicious, you're probably guilty" way of going about things? if the data's encrypted, they can raise their attention as much as they want, i believe they're not even legally allowed to try and decrypt the packages anyway.

  32. Thomas Swann
    Thumb Down

    Typical...

    I find it amusing that they effectively used the old 'If you've done nothing wrong then you've got nothing to hide' line.

  33. James

    Statement from the Wax Cylinder Industry Association

    The WCIA wishes to make it clear to all those who seek to pirate material: Encryption is no guarantee that we cannot pursue you. No encryption system is unbreakable, and our expansive team of highly-paid coders can easily work out how to break the shackles of a simple cypher put together by a mere handful of undisciplined hippies. In fact the mere presence of encrypted traffic on your connection is enough to raise suspicion, at which point we will consider it our legal duty to crack open every packet we find to prove what we already assume is true, viz. anyone who uses encryption is doing it to cover illegal activity.

    We would also like to remind those who seek to pirate material: Encryption is a guarantee of quality and security. Encryption systems are unbreakable (when ultilised by Big Media), and our small team of highly-arrogant coders is easily able to secure the shackles of a simple cypher under scrutiny by a mere few thousand highly-motivated hippies. In fact the mere presence of encrypted files on your MP3 player is enough to demonstrate that you actively desire more encryption, and makes it our legal duty to install rootkits and gimped drivers, in order to cover the fact that we have no idea how to respond to a changing market within the context of our traditional activities.

    The WCIA hopes this message makes our position clear to our custiminals.

  34. Mike Moyle Silver badge
    Flame

    Re: Good Article

    "Much better than the ones posted by that jackass Anonymous Coward who doesn't even have the guts to identify himself when insulting someone online."

    ...I fixed that for you...

  35. Andrew Campbell
    Boffin

    Decisions decisions ...

    I have BT Broadband ... I'd like to download the latest copy of Ubuntu ...

    Now would I like to download it at 300Kb/s or at 30Kb/s?

    I think I'll turn on RC4 encryption.

  36. Anonymous Coward
    Stop

    Eh...

    "When encryption is used to cloak torrent traffic it tends to be to hide something, and attracts greater attention for that reason."

    Yeah, just like when I insist on using an "Envelope" when I post a letter, that must mean I'm a bad person.. clearly!

    Encrypting data isn't indicative of *anything* beyond wanting your privacy.

  37. heystoopid
    Coat

    Alas

    Alas we have been fed much deliberate misinformation as a whole from the Record Industry as it star has waned since the peak year of 2000 which coincidently reflected the virtually the last year of the final releases of much of the sixties and seventies back catalogue of Rock Music !

    As the RIAA star waned the MPAA star rose in the heavens as the Baby Boomers endorsed the movie DVD as a replacement for the bulky Beta and VHS video cassette tapes as all retail sales figures can attest !

    However the Baby Boomers have been exceedingly generous in their payments to the big 4 record labels by purchasing the same licensed music in three major format releases from vinyl to compact cassette(In Car Entertainment/Brazilian Walkman Concept) to Audio CD !

    Modern fast home computers in combination with both simple conversion programs can easily convert large stocks of existing Audio CD's to any compressed lossy formats used in the ultra light weight digital audio players !

    This unfortunately is an anathema to the major four labels in two ways in they are are now cut out of the loop from reselling the same music license yet again for the fourth time , talk about super profits to be had from the same punter !

    The Internet which allows a billion plus users to independently access their favourite local and international musicians and whatever style or remix independently of the current crop of rubbish genres as sold by the big four labels now !

    As for the so called recording artists main fortune being derived by sales of CD's that has always been a lie from day one given the standard contracts used by these leeches !

    Basically say they whole sale an audio CD for USD $10 which is then retailed for US$20 to the buying public, from which the pay a nominal $1 in royalty payments less all Publicity and Advertising costs and other incidental costs like label art printing and everything else they can think of as well !

    One classic example were the annual staff Christmas Parties that RCA held in the fifties and went as far as issuing an invitation to Elvis Presley to attend , guess who's royalty payment fund got the full bill for those affairs prior to it being paid to his agents !

    So now if we have the basic unit production costs inclusive of distribution a mere $1-00 the balance is pure record company profits !

    Strangely interesting in Canada thanks to a notional tax on all blank recordable CD's irrespective of whether they are used for data back up or not , current studies indicate that active fan based file sharers directly and actively support their favourite local artists in the form of increased concert ticket and direct door merchandising sales thus directly bypassing the record companies !

    Imagine if you will in say 2004 when an exceptionally popular artist sells some 13.3 million audio CD's internationally which generates a notional royalty payment of 13.3 million(standard contract ) so investment return of 10% nets $2.6 million over two years then levy assorted label fees say $10 million in addition to the net sales profit of $106 million so the total profit to the record label in question becomes some $116 million over two years . In the some four years prior to royalty payments being paid the same recording artists may have gross concert touring sales of say $50 million so you can see where the real income lies and just how much pure profit they generate from such a sales success at the same time ! And because these royalty payments are deliberately paid in big lump sums the Tax man takes the lions share for that year as well !

    Sadly for all , the big four labels are more like very fat vampires sucking the very life's blood out of those that feed them as their greed knows no bounds , but like all bad things the end must come at some point in time like that which happened to "The John Company" as nothing lasts forever , but it does explain why the industry wanted , demanded and got unlimited copyright control rights though in the US but failed in the UK for some unfathomable reason !

  38. Dam

    Glad I upgraded to SSL

    Thanks Giganews, you charge a premium, but it's worth it.

    And this evening, to upload an ubuntu ISOs on alt.bin and download it 10-12 times in the week, just to make a point about encrypted traffic...

    Oh wait, my ISP doesn't throttle, I think I'll just pass, for now.

  39. Derek Hellam
    Go

    Title

    "When encryption is used to cloak torrent traffic it tends to be to hide something, and attracts greater attention for that reason. If certain ISPs are experiencing disproportionately high volumes of encrypted torrent traffic we expect it is partly in response to a combination of effective ISP abuse teams the enforcement efforts of the police and industry."

    What bollocks. I recently tried a little program called "transmission" that defaults to automatic encryption. I bet there are a heck of a lot of people using this and others that don't even know they are using encryption.

  40. Anonymous Coward
    Flame

    Will you pay what it takes ....

    for an unlimited connection? As opposed to to a service that is marketed as unlimited*

    (*subject to AUP of course! ;-) )

    If you want to live in a world where truth prevails and people say what they mean, start by making sure that B Ark is fully populated and blasted off into space. Otherwise just deal with it, stay cynical and assume everyone is lying to you to get your pennies (something I'd figured out when my age was still in single digits)

  41. Anonymous Coward
    Gates Halo

    if i EVER owned a piece of music . . . .

    . . . on ANY format. I'm covered. Mass consumerism is no reason for us to pay like lemmings for a song/album we already own. WTF? go ahead and change formats, LP, CD, file. I OWN THEM ALL. hahahahaha

    an .08 piece of media, and getting charged 15-20 BUCKs!? BITE ME!

    Oh and what everyone has said about AO and comments is true.

    COWBOY UP, man!

  42. b166er
    Black Helicopters

    Something to hide

    ROFL, so when all traffic is encrypted, everyone's got something to hide, right?

    The ISP's don't care, they just want the monkeys off their backs and need to be seen to be doing something.

    Will these muppets ever learn?

    Off to put lots of things in 'Envelopes' ;p

  43. Andy Bright

    I've stopped buying music

    But I don't steal it either. I won't start buying music again until I've got guarantees on quality and freedom of use. If I buy a CD I expect to be able to rip it's contents and play it on an mp3 device with no loss in quality and without the need for any sort of software, and without the worry that rootkits will be installed on my PC.

    If I buy from download services I expect to be able to use that music on any device without the need for validation, license keys or whatever other method the music industry deliberately designed to force people to have to re-purchase the same content every few years.

    So tough - the music industry can wither and die for all I care. I'm fed up of being called a thief and threatened with prison every time I buy any sort of music or video content, so until the threats, drm and spyware goes away they won't be getting a fucking penny from me.

    Same goes for movies. Fuck 'em all, they've been given a free ride to rip people off for too long. HD movie formats deserve to fail, and hopefully will take some of the worst offenders down with them.

    Haven't bought a DVD, Blu Ray disk, video game, CD or any sort of download for 4 months, and I don't see anything worthy of changing that decision. The content is mostly shite anyway, I can't be the only one that's noticed how poor these things have become.

    As for games, there are only 4. Sure each corporate produces their own 'skin' to give the illusion of difference, but if you've bought 4 games in the last 4 years, you have them all.

  44. Feargal Reilly
    Coat

    @Simon Holt

    I thought he said "That's one small step for the media, one giant leap for Torrent Users".

    Split the fare?

  45. John A Blackley

    I wonder

    Hmm, given the proclivity of Broon's Loonies to legislate everything (jokes about gays, the maximum permitted amount of actual seafood in fish fingers, etc.), I wonder how long it'll be until UK citizens are required to have a license and operating permit to use encryption?

    Of course, the gov. (actually Capita) will need time to carry out a study first. However, I'm pretty confident that they (Capita) will recommend such a course of action and, coincidentally, they (Capita) will become the licensing authority.

    Actual licenses will be granted following an exhaustive investigation which will include analysis of the applicant's fingerprints, blood, intentions and friends. Once approved, applicants will be granted a license* to use encryption upon payment of a fee estimated to be 5 million pounds. Per annum.

    (Naturally, said license will be conditional upon the application lodging the key with Capita and only renewing the key on approval from Capita and on payment of 5 million..............oh well, you know where this is going.)

  46. Chris Seiter
    Thumb Down

    Legit usage?

    So when a co-worker is out for six weeks of maternity leave and uses our VPN for 8 hours a day, that's...carry the five... 40 hours of encrypted traffic a week. Are they going to shut her connection down?

  47. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    If RIAA attempted to view encrypted source, wouldn't they be violating DRM?

    It seems like encryption is the way to go... maybe work out a pooled key resource server... and safe from procecution, too. Seems to me that if the RIAA tried to decrypt content to verify non-compliance, then they would be violating the DRM themselves. Cool.

    As far as I'm concerned... if you are sharing files, and NOT using a wireless connection OTHER THAN YOUR OWN, you're dumb.

  48. Andrew Orlowski (Written by Reg staff)

    For readers new to El Reg...

    Apologies to regular readers, but there are some newcomers here.

    Everyone who writes to me gets a reply - so long as you're not a nutter, or a Martian.

    It takes a fair bit of time out of each day, which is why journalists everywhere prefer comments: they don't have to read them. But I've always found it well worth the investment. Offline debate is one of the best things about the job here.

    It's doubly worth it these days as I get a lot more good tip-offs.

    If you simply want to make a statement (or meta-statement about making statements), I can recommend some blog services.

    (I hear WordPress is very good.)

    For everyone else, the address is andrew.orlowski@theregister.co.uk - you can just click on the byline. See you there ;-)

  49. The Mighty Spang
    Black Helicopters

    Simple counterpoint

    I'll make all my data available to the RIAA if they beleive that hiding information is tantamount to admitting guilt against some kind of law once all their artists remove NDAs from all staff, allowing anybody to say anything about what they have done, photograph them without makeup and sell the pictures, talk about drug/alchohol problems without fear of being sued into oblivion

    Because musicians are such upstanding citizens and would never stoop to breaking drugs laws or speeding or drink driving or smoking in enclosed spaces or assulting people or having their 'minders' assult other people.

    We should also have access to all communication from the artist, management, record label etc just in case they want to stitch the public up with predatory pricing, restrictive practises etc.

    Yeah like that's going to happen.... thats almost like a level playing field

  50. Andy Bright
    Thumb Up

    re: Simple counterpoint

    "We should also have access to all communication from the artist, management, record label etc just in case they want to stitch the public up with predatory pricing, restrictive practises etc."

    Excellent point ^_^

  51. Steve Roper

    @ Andrew Orlowski

    Andrew: I am one of those who has attacked you in other comment threads in the past for not enabling comments in your articles, although the main reason I've done so is because I've vehemently disagreed with something you've written and would have liked to present my counter-argument not simply to you alone, but also to the Reg readership to see what their views are.

    The ability to email you directly is certainly good of you considering how busy you must be, but it does not serve the same purpose as the comments threads that follow the articles. I grant that, as in any public forum, there are flamebaiters and trolls, but these are outweighed by the often well-informed, intelligent and frequently humorous replies from some readers. Were these kept only as private emails to the reporter concerned, I would not have the privilege of reading them myself, and of engaging in the debate.

    So the question I must ask you is, if as you say you don't have to read the comments, why then do you disable them? Many readers, myself included, simply see this as a stifling of debate, in which you of course are not obligated to take part if you don't want to read it or see nothing there that you'd consider worth responding to.

    Finally, part of Reg reader culture is the nutters, coat-getters, and the ever-present indecipherable maunderings of amanfromMars. I, and obviously many others, enjoy reading his posts as they are like an ecryption challenge - can we hack a meaning out of his jumble of miscapitalised words and twisted syntactic combinations? This is part of the mentality of the mainly IT-involved readership of the Reg - solving weird and twisted problems.

    You have a unique reader community here, unlike any other community I've seen on the internet. Perhaps, far from your disabling comments, the Reg could consider even setting up a real forum to develop this community further, instead of just restricting reader interaction to these singular moderated-comment threads. I'm sure it would be a fascinating study for reporters and readers alike.

  52. Mectron

    Who is behind it

    The digital mafia (MPAA/RIAA) is so desperate to "steal" money from any source they can. that i am sure they are behind that totally illegal throttling of internet traffic by ISPs.

    If they cannot distord the justice system any more then they all ready did, now they just buy out ISP to try to cut down on users freedom. there is only one way to end this madness. shutdown the openly crminal cartel MPAA/RIAA, fine its members the total amount of money they stole from illegal court case. jail the onwers, fine for a couple of billion the IPS who have illegally throlled they service, Prevent any "unilimited" wording is ISP's ad (if they cannot deliver, with is pretty the case for all of them). Restore freedom to users and prevent power hungry corrupted corporate (MPAA/RIAA/APPLE/SONY/MACROVISION)

  53. Christian Berger Silver badge

    Build your own networks

    Now with a large part of the population having a PC and wireless networking having gone so incredibly cheap, why not build your own networks.

    There are now cheap and simple meshed routers available you can just put on your roof or window and they will connect to the other routers.

    Centralized networking is typically a very bad idea. Censorship is just one example where that shows.

  54. Andy Worth

    Well

    How does it work when some angry teenager has his Ipod blasting out music or the have a mobile doing the same so they can all hear it? Is that not either classed as music "sharing" or broadcasting? Because to be honest, the sooner a law comes in place so I don't have to listen to that shit any longer, the better.

    Seriously, what is with the music industry these days? They seem to be under impression that the majority of the "music" (a term which I think some of them should be sued for false advertising for using) that they release is actually good, and not just some pointless electronic reproduction of booming bass and tinny pops. Some of my farts are actually more tuneful.

    Shit....I just realised....does this mean I am getting old?

  55. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Re: AC (JonB's comment )

    >so what your saying is my '8Mbit ADSL max unlimited'

    >connection is actually 8Mbit until I transfer say 2MBits

    >then it is *Limited* to 2MBit/s??

    I don't know the threshold but that's what I'm saying that I expect them to do.

    >Really?

    You weren't aware of this? Or you were under the impression that the ISP's only throttled bit torrent?

    >so I should be happy that I got (...) well Im not.

    Good, you shouldn't be happy with that it's a con.

    >Until ISP's start offering a service that 'Does exactly what

    >it says on the tin'

    I'm with Firefly, I pay a flat rate for 5GB a month and then extra for data on top of that, it's fast, unthrottled and superb service.

    The ISP's don't care how you use the bandwidth, but bandwidth costs money, the more you use the less profit they make out of you, it doesn't matter whether it's HTTP, Bit Torrent, iPlayer or ByteBadger they'll throttle because you start costing them money. The unlimited accounts will have to go, trading standards should have forced them out long ago.

  56. Andrew Orlowski (Written by Reg staff)

    @Steve

    "[I].. would have liked to present my counter-argument not simply to you alone, but also to the Reg readership to see what their views are."

    In the participatory democracy of Web 2.0, nothing can stop the people formerly known audience presenting their arguments, and counter-arguments. Isn't this wonderful? That's why I recommended some blog services.

    "So the question I must ask you is, if as you say you don't have to read the comments, why then do you disable them? "

    You've blown a logic chip there, Steve. Hopefully the whole motherboard doesn't have to be replaced, as is the case with my T42. :-)

    Your statement assumes that I don't want to read them. (If you use your noggin for a second, you'll see I can't really avoid reading reader comments - something to think about)

    Yes, reviving our Forum is The Way to go. We haven't had one since 2001, I've missed it, and we're looking at options.

    In the meantime, why not come and "join the conversation"? The email address is above.

  57. Anonymous Coward
    Boffin

    Tidy

    I'm not sure what this hoo-hah is all about but thought I would but in and tidy up just to get my head around it.

    So what this Steve bloke seems to be saying is he liked the forums the right technical vulture had before; and that he thinks he is being hard done by (also dragging all readers of the venerable vulture down with him in this hole of a pointless protest).

    It would appear that a vulture journo has replied by saying he likes our comments after his articles and doesn't really know what Steve is going on about.

    Here here, and if I spot any more of this codswallop I will of course endeavor to take the mickey as much as possible.

    As for the torrent surge - ease of use due to duo core computers? That way you can watch pirate movies whilst downloading pirate music. If it is free, then you are not getting the feeling you are paying terrorists for the music.

    Nice.

  58. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Steve Roper is right

    It's no good saying "I'm happy to debate this but only by private email" or "you've got the whole net to debate this". That's a cowardly cop-out.

    The Reg has a comments section for a reason, so that the readership's views can be public.

    Just what is Orlowski afraid of? That people may read the debate in the comments and conclude that they disagree with him? Oh no!

    Show some balls and let people comment on your articles, otherwise they just come across as an editorial polemic.

  59. Anonymous Coward
    Alert

    Time to get realistic everyone!

    I manage a university "residential network" for students and we selectively package shape the traffic based on type and destination. I.e. We don't throttle the traffic going to our University internal servers or "known" educational resources but peer-to-peer etc going out side the University is throttled.

    When we didn't do this large numbers of the students complained of a slow service (and it was very poor) as the relatively modest link from the residential network to "the internet" ran 24 /7 at 100 % utilisation with large ammounts of the traffic being peer-to-peer. The students were given the option of paying more rent, and we would increase the connection speed and no one, NOT ONE, would pay more for an improved bandwidth/guaranteed bandwidth service with no packet shaping, they all wanted it free of charge with no packet shaping.

    My point is:

    Until people start to realise unlimited broadband/"internet" is unrealistic for £10/£15/£20 a month in the UK, and ISPs stop advertisising "Unlimited broadband" we are stuck with package shaping which will become more and more strict as people use more and more of their bandwidth all the time. I for one accept that my ISP throttles my and everyone elses downloads at "peak times" because at least I retain some service. The ISP market is a race to the lowest service for the lowest price because thats what the customers demand.

  60. Andrew Orlowski (Written by Reg staff)

    @Finnbar

    I'd love to believe that you were sincerely interested in engagement, or discussion. But you're not. You're much more interested in bullying people into agreeing with your very narrow view of the world.

    I enable Comments when I'm able to reply. But you're not really persuading me (or anyone else at El Reg) for the case why this should happen more often.

    Quite the opposite, in fact. Your whining is counter-productive... and very boring.

  61. Anonymous Coward
    Boffin

    Optical fibre

    To the anonymous coward varsity IT monkey I say - optical fibre to replace all of the ageing wires and cables we have in the UK.

    Do South Koreans pay astronomical prices for their superfast broadband? No.

    Yet according to the equation "higher subs means faster broadband" that would be the result.

    Seeing as South Koreans obviously do not have to pay astronomically high prices for their superfast broadband - neither should we.

    What should happen is that all of the telcom companies etc should put their money in a pot and have BT replace all of the ageing wires and cables with optical fibre, so we can actually have a web 2.0 and modern internet speeds instead of the medieval technological state we enjoy today.

    Narf..

  62. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Re: Optical Fibre in South Korea

    It comes when the following applies to the UK:

    - They live in giant apartment blocks, that look a bit like british 70's social housing

    (but better built and without the scum of course)

    - They all live in Seoul.

    - 70% of them want broadband.

    - They're really into online gaming.

    Most of them are on 8meg anyway aren't they?

    And what the fuck does this mean:-

    "so we can actually have a web 2.0"

    What the hell is a "web 2.0"?

  63. Alex

    @Andrew

    I'd like to see you enable comments more often because I enjoy the kinds of articles you tend to write about, and like to hear the perspective of other members of El Reg's readership, even if I don't see the need to contribute. I imagine a lot of your readership feels the same.

    Seems a bit unnecessary to suggest your readership go to some random blog to make a 'statement' when you could simply turn on comments here. Also, there's a bit of a discrepancy between these two quotes from yourself:

    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/10/05/riaa_wins_first_music_sharing_jury_trial/comments/

    "Finnbar - what makes you think journalists read the comments at all? It's a great way of ignoring people like you."

    Which is at odds with "If you use your noggin for a second, you'll see I can't really avoid reading reader comments - something to think about".

    So, if you don't read comments then what's the problem with enabling them?

    Or if you do read comments but you don't care what the idiots think then again, what's the problem with enabling them?

    Do you see comments essentially as messages to yourself? Because I'm pretty sure the readers of El Reg see them as being messages to other Reg readers.

  64. Anonymous Coward
    Go

    @JonB

    JonB wrote;

    "And what the fuck does this mean:-

    "so we can actually have a web 2.0"

    What the hell is a "web 2.0"?"

    I honestly have no idea what a web 2.0 is, but it seems to be a term used a lot these days by the spin doctors of various organisations so I thought I would use it as an example.

    In my view web 2.0 should be more tailored to what each user wants, be in HD 3D interactive worlds with surround sound and virtual helpers taking the form of pretty ladies; and above all be filled with new ideas and interesting content.

    *sigh*

    Not likely to get that by the sound of things, unless we pile everybody into one city and into big ugly apartment blocks etc.

    Hang on...what about London?

  65. Alex

    My apologies

    The link for that quote is:

    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/10/08/0810_riaa_comment/comments/

  66. Gilbert Wham

    Best. Neologism. Ever

    "custiminals"

    ^^^^^ Win.

  67. Gilbert Wham

    And another thing!

    Re the whole shaping foofaraw; hardcore uploaders are now using dedicated seedboxes on 20MBit+ commercial lines. Something that is going to become more and more prevalent as the prices drop, till everyone who wants to is running their own homebrewed GigaNews anyway.

  68. yeah, right.

    Use it or lose it.

    I've been repeating this mantra for several years. Encryption: use it, or lose it.

    As we can see from this article, the law enforcement folks are now trying to equate "privacy" with "criminals". Anyone who wants privacy through encryption must obviously be a criminal.

    Unless encryption gets much more popular, and much more widely deployed in many different applications, the governments of the USA, UK and the like will be in an ideal position to ban its use. After all, it's only used by criminals. France has already enacted laws to t his effect - only "approved" encryption (ie: stuff they have back doors for) is allowed in that country. From the comments of the law enforcement dickheads quoted here, it looks like the UK is quickly headed that way as well.

    Encryption: use it or lose it.

  69. Ole Juul
    Thumb Up

    One more vote for Orlowski comments

    It was Orlowski's articles that first got me interested in the Reg. I enjoy his articles and would like to know what other people think. A private exchange with the author, or comments elsewhere, would not really help me nor the Reg community. I vote for enabled comments on his articles.

  70. night troll
    Pirate

    Paranoid

    My ISP says they don't traffic shape or limit downloads in any way and that they provide a true "unlimited" connection. After reading you lot I found and switched on encryption in my torrent client and restarted it and the d/l jumped by over 100kB/s, coincidence, I don't think so.

    I'm going back to my cave to barricade the bastards out!

  71. James Cleveland
    Flame

    ISPs fault

    it really is - if they didn't need to oversell due to not spending enough on infrastructure, they wouldn't have issues with capacity that mean they have to traffic shape torrenting and noone would use encryption.

    Either way, greed is our enemy.

  72. SImon Hobson Silver badge

    Universities love encryption too !

    At LUG meeting some time ago, the topic came up in conversation - one of the people there worked in a UK university. The university in question had been approached in the "control your users or we'll control you" manner, and so they had to start thinking about how to do it.

    At the time, the technology was limited to simple pattern matching -and the result was that the students simply turned on encryption. The university could no longer see what the traffic was, and to try and decrypt it would be a) in practical terms not possible, and b) illegal (as someone else has already pointed out). So users get to carry on using P2P and university gets out of having to monitor them !

  73. Chris

    hmm

    http://torrentfreak.com/bittorrent-encryption-myths-071108/

    *cough*

  74. Chris Williams (Written by Reg staff)

    @Chris

    I acknowledge in the piece that some use encryption in an attempt to avoid throttling. Sometime it works sometimes it doesn't.

    TorrentFreak completely misses the point of the article.

    - Chris Williams

  75. Dr Stephen Jones

    Arrogance

    "A private exchange with the author, or comments elsewhere, would not really help me"

    Why not?

    What an arrogant statement. My experience is that journalists are very rarely responsive. After I emailed Andrew a correction, I was surprised that he got back to me quickly, and was very pleased that he incorporated it into the article. I would like to think I have been able to influence articles positively.

    If such a responsive reporter wants Comments backwards, in purple, or OFF, that's really down to Andrew. I'd much rather have a direct relationship with the journalist.

    Having read the excellent Adam Curtis interview this week, I can see exactly what he means by bloggers and their desire to bully.

    Sorry Ole (and others) - but no one comes to The Register to read you.

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