back to article No fandango for you: EU boots UK off Galileo satellite project

It's official: the UK is going to be booted off the Galileo satellite GPS program as a result of Brexit, despite furious protestations from Britain that it's a special case. The decision was reached by all 27 member states of Europe at a meeting on Tuesday and was confirmed in a slide deck [PDF] released on Wednesday. Just …

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Re: Someone remind me

"The UK also pushed very hard for the rules that explicitly exclude non-EU countries from building any part of Galileo."

It did, on behalf of the USA, in order to remove China from the consortium and prevent them getting access to high-accuracy positioning data.

The Chinese response was to dust off Beidou and update it. With an economy larger than the USA and not spending silly money on its military, China can afford to do such things (China's spending less on its _intrastructire_ projects such as high speed rail) than the US military budget and unlike military spending, infrastructure spending has tangible results at the end of the day.

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Anonymous Coward

Yet another Remoaner circle-jerk on El Reg.

What a surprise.

Remoaners of a feather, stick together.

Not so much "Biting the hand the feeds IT" as "giving head to the illiberal unelite".

Bye, bye El Reg.

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Re: Yet another Remoaner circle-jerk on El Reg.

Seeya! Watch the door doesn't slap your arse in the way out.

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Re: Yet another Remoaner circle-jerk on El Reg.

Errr no.

There is quite some disagreement over Brexit in thereg and their commentards.

But there can be little discussion about this particular issue: we (as in the UK) demanded that non EU countries had to be barred from providing the essential works for the project, and that is not illogical.

Now we leave, and as we are no longer part of the EU, of course we got out of the project. Quite obvious.

I think we should get reimboursed, at least partly reimbursed, but who knows if we would get that or not... we have almost no leverage on the EU, and they have a lot on us.

As for our negotiating team.. well, they warned us about this, but we chose not to listen to experts, we were tired of "so called experts". Now we blame them when we dont have leverage, exactly as predicted.

you see, we kept moaning about rules, and imposing plenty of rules on the EU "or we leave", and they kept accepting as it was in their best interest to have us in the EU. Now that we have left, well, the damage is going to happen, so they no longer care much about us.

What do we offer them? banking and insurance, and associated services. Hardly anything that they cannot replicate.. and they can take it away from us with things like Tolbin tax.

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Re: Yet another Remoaner circle-jerk on El Reg.

"What do we offer them? banking and insurance, and associated services. Hardly anything that they cannot replicate.. and they can take it away from us with things like Tolbin tax."

They don't need to replicate it and they don't need to impose taxes either.

In case noone's noticed, the City has been preparing itself to shuffle off to the mainland since the referendum. In the sake way that there are rules saying "No non-EU members get access to PRS", there are also requirements for financial institutions handing european money to be within the EU.

The song and dance about Gallileo is a distraction from things with far greater economic impact that are going on.

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Re: Yet another Remoaner circle-jerk on El Reg.

Awwwwwwww, widdle Edward didn't like it, now he takes his ball and goes home!

Just like... Oh. Wait.

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Fine, can we have our money back and what about all the UK technology with, can we not just pull any licence deal or simply refuse to supply parts ?

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Anonymous Coward

Refund?

Ring - Ring - Where you miss-sold a GPS system?If so you could be owed billions. It's easy to claim and our trained operators (in Mumbai) are waiting for your call.

[All calls will be recorded, but we will deny we ever said what you said we said. Rees, Farage and Whinge Plc are independent Financial advisers incorporated in the Cayman Islands)]

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Anonymous Coward

"Fine, can we have our money back and what about all the UK technology with, can we not just pull any licence deal or simply refuse to supply parts ?"

That might be reasonable if you repay the value of the contracts you got in return for your contributions.

I suspect that you are better off not backing out of your financial obligations... you might well be paying the EU for leaving Galileo, rather than just leaving.

Of course, if the UK did try to retroactively wriggle out of your obligations and it cost it a few hundred million extra euros, to many impartial observers that would seem like self inflicted justice.

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You won and this is _what_ you've won, David Davies, so as leavers keep telling us remainers, "Get over it".

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Anonymous Coward

I say,

don't let them Eurotrash take our NHS and teaching agricultural jobs, that's teach them!

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Anonymous Coward

Disaster capitalism at its best

The useful idiots were given a chance to stick two fingers up at the establishment by disaster capitalists hoping for a fire sale in the UK combined with another group desperate to put their wealth out of the reach of forthcoming EU scrutiny on tax avoidance.

Chuck in a little encouragement from "foreign" chaos and confusion agents playing their own international strategy and....

Here we are.

The useful idiots didn't care about satellite projects, car manufacturing or whatever. As one said on TV when the issue of the effect on GDP if we left the EU was brought up..... "its not MY GDP".

Its the democratic equivalent of a dirty protest. They did indeed sh1t in their own hands and clap.

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Re: Disaster capitalism at its best

Oh dear, another remainer. Don't you anything actually useful to say other than spout bile and rage?

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Re: Disaster capitalism at its best

"Don't you anything actually useful to say other than spout bile and rage?"

Standard leave response - any criticism of the glorious sunlit uplands future of Britain is denounced as bile and rage.

Rage? don't get me started you self-centred troll. Give me ONE thing that will be better after brexit bites. ONE. If you mention immigration I will laugh at you. Sovereignty that we never lost but are in the process of killing off? I'll point and laugh. Trade deals? We already have trade deals across the world - more than 50% of our trade actually.

Go on, give me a giggle.

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Holmes

It wasn't....

That long ago that individual road pricing was being mooted as the only way to pay for Galileo (the project has struggled for funding over the years and doesn't have a particularly good commercial use case) . Without the high precision military access hopefully the need for road pricing will now be dropped forever.

Yey Brexit :)

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As a firm believer in BREXIT this ( Abandoning Galileo) was always on the cards. It does not mean that BREXIT is a bad idea. The usual bile and fear mongers are abroad again on this site.

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Bile and fear mongers

Brilliant. Keep spouting the clichés.

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Hey Sandy, here's one for you: how many Brexiters does it take to change a lot bulb?

17,410,742. One to promise a brighter future, one to fuck it up, and 17,410,740 to sit around on forums all day pissing and moaning about "bile and fear".

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Anonymous Coward

Time to withdraw the U.K. from Enhanced Forward Presence, Baltic Air Policing and all the rest. Let the EU do it and foot the bill for it.

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>Time to withdraw the U.K. from Enhanced Forward Presence, Baltic Air Policing and all the rest. Let the EU do it and foot the bill for it.<

Are you aware that the EU and NATO are not the same thing?

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Anonymous Coward

I am aware yes, but I don’t think the EU is, since this is security related and out of their remit, pretensions of a Euro-Army not withstanding. If they want to play that game, let them play it by big boys rules.

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Go

Bitterness and failure

This discussion thread is riddled with bitterness, factless commentary and doomsday predictions. Both the EU and UK will suffer from this tit-for-tat nastiness.

There is much to improve in the EU. Erosion of democracy, known to all members, is my greatest concern. Politicians are embarrassing themselves on both sides with current behaviors. It needs reform, which this sorry Brexit situation may facilitate.

Meanwhile, both sides need to grow up, stop punching each other and work out how to resolve the Brexit problem via mutual compromise. Democracy must not be a casualty. The UK will leave. Lets stop bickering and get on with it - both sides.

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Re: Bitterness and failure

@Disgruntled - the "erosion of democracy" is the most interesting aspect of brexit. 'Cos various proposals to improve EU democratic accountability have been made over the years, but have always been blocked by UK governments of both colours.

The Sir Humphrey master plan was to stay in until it was so poisoned someone else could be relied on to take that role. It remains to be seen what happens without us: will east/west and north/south tensions over issues like immigration scupper any future proposals without the need for a UK veto?

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Re: Bitterness and failure

"Meanwhile, both sides need to grow up, stop punching each other and work out how to resolve the Brexit problem via mutual compromise"

The only side needing to grow up is the bunch of bickering fantasists in the UK. Why is it in the interests of the EU to make this easy for us? Democracy is already a casualty - the British government is trying to give itself the final say on brexit without allowing parliament - sovereignty and all that, remember? - any say other than bad deal or no deal. It's also trying to give itself the power to amend existing laws without consulting parliament (EU withdrawal bill)

EU democary is fine - the EU commission members are appointed by the elected governments of the member states. They don't pass any laws but merely propose them. The MEPs that we vote for do that. If you think the EU commission is unelected and should go, then I assume you want to vote for the members of our cabinet as well? Did you get the chance to vote for Gove and Johnson's positions in the cabinet? No? Wow, how undemocratic.

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MAF

Expert opinion

David Davis - Expert from the Ministry of shooting oneself in the foot.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Expert opinion

I don't understand why the Brexiteers whinge about our incompetent negotiating. Aren't they the lot that have had enough of experts - I thought that was why they put Davis in charge of negotiating?

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Re: Expert opinion

To be fair, Davis is actually the more acceptable face of brexit. He's not Kim JongSon nor rival arch-toffoon Rees Mogg; he's not "no more experts" Gollum, he's not dotard flat-earther Lawson, and above all he's not any of the altogether more shadowy figures behind them. He even has a track record that includes making a stand for liberty.

If there's any potential for good news in the whole mess, it's probably him.

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Re: Expert opinion

Unfortunately DD (remember his election campaign) is Dunning Kruger effect writ large

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Unhappy

If there's any potential for good news in the whole mess, it's probably him.

But he won't survive Brexit.

An old line from "Bad boys" comes to mind.

"The politics of the situation demand someone has to go down."

And since May and Davies are (allegedly) in the driving seat they will get it right in the neck* from the likes of Johnson, Gove and Rees-Mogg.

*What you might call "A Stab in the Dark," although not to be confused with the TV show of that name.

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Meh

As far as I am concerned I dont see the big problem with 'being kicked off' the EU's vanity project. Why would we want to pay for and build their toy so they can enjoy it? I am very interested to know why the gov would want to build yet another one, we dont need to be willy waving.

Another amusing development I read about this morning (msn so I dont count it as credible yet) is the EU putting together some kind of security fund to only be spent in the EU for technological developments for war. If it is true it is a good job we got out before paying for another gravy boat.

And of course the EU is now in a trade war with the US. We should be pushing to leave asap and demanding the gov just gets on with the hard brexit (the EU could always decide to do a trade deal if they want but lets not hang on for them to get common sense). In one breath it sounds like the EU understands 'tariffs are protectionist' and then they prove clueless as they then retaliate.

I am interested to see how the EU gets around the islands problem. Simply we can just charge them rent to the benefit of those islands.

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Re: Meh

>Another amusing development I read about this morning (msn so I dont count it as credible yet) is the EU putting together some kind of security fund to only be spent in the EU for technological developments for war. If it is true it is a good job we got out before paying for another gravy boat.<

As a member state we had the ability to veto any development such as the one you mention. So it wouldn't be an issue.

>And of course the EU is now in a trade war with the US. We should be pushing to leave asap and demanding the gov just gets on with the hard brexit (the EU could always decide to do a trade deal if they want but lets not hang on for them to get common sense). In one breath it sounds like the EU understands 'tariffs are protectionist' and then they prove clueless as they then retaliate.<

You do realise that the US's aggressive new tariffs apply to the UK too? And would do whether we were in or out of the EU? But outside the EU we'll have a lot less ability to fight back.

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Re: Meh

@ Mark Dempster

"As a member state we had the ability to veto any development such as the one you mention. So it wouldn't be an issue."

I find it interesting that people want to remain in the EU, just not actually be in the EU proper. If it is something they want why should we be standing in their way? Just as their desire to federalise and such.

"You do realise that the US's aggressive new tariffs apply to the UK too? And would do whether we were in or out of the EU? But outside the EU we'll have a lot less ability to fight back."

Fight back? As the EU was smart enough to identify, the US was acting in a protectionist way. That makes the people of the country poorer. It is a charge against the people in the country who apply the tariffs. So Trump points a gun at his foot, pulls the trigger and says 'aha!! take that!'. The EU in their idiocy then 'fight back' as you call it by making people in the EU poorer! 'Aha!! Take that!'. Just as they would have with Chinese steel if the UK didnt stop them.

Doing stupid because others are doing stupid is not fighting back. It is stupid!

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Re: Meh

I'm sorry. I tried hard but I cannot make sense of a single point you made in that post.

The Remainer point seems to have constructed some sort of straw man grouping everyone who is against Brexit into one convenient bag of "yes, but".

The Trump point fails to account for that man just saying shit. He will never acknowledge he has made a mistake, and his supporters will swallow everything he says even when it is directly affecting them adversely in a day-to-day way. You say that tariffs will harm America, he will say they Made America Great Again and there will be a landslide in the next election (assuming we have one) despite rampant economy woes.

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Own satellite system now. If the concern is military use ... do you really want the EU calling the shots in a a time of crisis ?

The EU will be harder hit than the UK since we made 90% of the hardware and software. We can get other customers and we can build our own. Or is thereg also doing an indy/telegraph where all brexit is bad innit and we have to point out every thing not in our favour. This is an opportunity for us to build our own system who we don't need to ask permission to use and we know 100% that we will be in charge of it if the shit hits the fan.

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>Own satellite system now. If the concern is military use ... do you really want the EU calling the shots in a a time of crisis ?<

As a member of the EU they wouldn't be able to deny us use of it at any time. As a non-member then we won't be able to use it at all, according to the rules WE insisted on. And we currently use the US GPS system - which they can, and likely would, lock us out of if it suited them.

>The EU will be harder hit than the UK since we made 90% of the hardware and software. We can get other customers and we can build our own. Or is thereg also doing an indy/telegraph where all brexit is bad innit and we have to point out every thing not in our favour. This is an opportunity for us to build our own system who we don't need to ask permission to use and we know 100% that we will be in charge of it if the shit hits the fan.<

I really don't think you understand the costs involved. And why on earth would you allow access to it for countries you don't have a military alliance with?

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"The EU will be harder hit than the UK since we made 90% of the hardware and software. "

Uh huh. Which is why the makers and coders have been bought up or recruited off to Europe.

The UK is claiming ownership of something which is mostly being done by private outfits, under contract and the terms are no different to losing your deposit if you walk away from a house sale.

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Anonymous Coward

and who will be sell it to?

So we are going to take our ball and storm off to find other people who we can play with. But not the USA, they have GPS, not the EU: Galileo, not Russia, not India, not China. And probably not anyone else in NATO - why would they trust the UK more than they trust the EU/USA? So who do we know with loads of spare dosh and no friends? Oh wait, what about all those Nigerian millionaires who keep mailing us....?

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Anonymous Coward

Surely to goodness we should be having a second vote on what deal we end up with. The way this has been negotiated is a shambles from start to finish. The Tory party only seem to be interested in clinging to power by appeasing their internal factions rather than having any coherent plan. The DUP deal makes any sort of sensible compromise over Northern Ireland impossible. IF they had any morals they'd call another election to end this ridiculous coalition - but they don't.

As for remaining - the issue always has been the levels of immigration. Up to 100,000 is ok, but 330,000/yr ? That's the equivalent of adding a city about the size of Cardiff every year while we have a housing crisis that has priced a generation out of owning their own homes, and reduced them to nothing more than life long serfs. It simply isn't sustainable. Had Merkel given Cameron a half decent deal this mess would have been avoided. As it stands its now a disaster in the making thanks to incompetent Tory dithering, and EU intransigence. The failure of the EU to come up with any sensible compromise on immigration has devastated some Eastern block countries like Bulgaria that are set to loose half their population - and particularly the young who are leaving in droves. This might not matter in a block with common language and culture like the US - but in the EU it is bound to cause severe imbalances that in the end will result in extremist governments being elected. This is neither good for the UK or anyone else. We've seen German refusals to bail out the euro result in dumping German bank debt on the Greeks thereby destroying their economy, the Germans still refuse to pay back debt prior to the Marshall plan (which after unification they were supposed to do), and the Germans refuse to allow any limitation to the principle of free migration within the EU. Its not just Britain that's responsible for this mess - the German political elite are just as bad. If they really care about the rest of the EU then they should find a compromise - or they might end up regretting setting up similar economic conditions in southern EU states that are precisely the same as those that gave the far right in Germany power in the 1930's. Have they learnt nothing from history at all ?

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Anonymous Coward

> Had Merkel given Cameron a half decent deal this mess would have been avoided.

Germany has more immigrants than the UK, more annual immigration than the UK and a greater proportion of the population born outside the country than the UK *and* less of the problems previous UK governments have made for themselves.

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"while we have a housing crisis that has priced a generation out of owning their own homes, and reduced them to nothing more than life long serfs."

If you think that immigration has had more than about 2% influence on that then you're deluded.

The size of the average UK household has gone from 5-6 in the 1950s down to 1-2 now.

That's a tripling of requirements without even needing a population increase and whilst the government knew this was coming in the 1970s when all the pensioner flats it built were immediately occupied by DINKIES, it collectively stuck its fingers in its ears and chanted "neh neh neh, can't hear you" when faced with mounting evidence of lack of housing and accelerating north-south internal urban drift (the internal population movement from north to south is a hell of a lot larger than any foriegn migration and there's housing going effectively for free in many areas up north as a result)

Sucessive governments have been deliberately selling off housing to buy votes and profit from forced sales when the buyers found they couldn't cope, or flat out inertia whilst in the meantime rampant NIMBYism has prevented sorely needed expansions taking place. The Greenbelt isn't a cities' green lung, it's a way for bankers to put a moat between themselves and the hoi-polloi.

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Green belt is needed, our country is a wildlife desert, we need proper greenbelt (not monoculture farmers fields but woods, scrub etc)

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Unhappy

"The Tory party..interested in clinging to power by appeasing their internal factions"

You're a bit new to British politics, aren't you?

This is all Brexit has ever been about.

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Bollocks

"What the UK government will be most upset about is that the fact it will be no longer be allowed access to the highly secure military-grade signal Public Regulated Service (PRS), a huge blow that will put the UK, and its military, far behind other Western nations when it comes to using the latest global technologies."

For some reason I keep using that title when articles on Galileo crop up. The UK and it's military will not be left behind anything. As apparently needs pointing out every time, the PRS is identical in function to the commercial service which is available to anyone regardless of whether they're in the EU or not. The only difference is that the PRS is guaranteed to keep operating during emergencies while the commercial service can be switched off. Unless the UK goes to war with the EU (and Brexit hasn't quite gone that far yet), there is no reason for the EU to disable the UK's access to the regular commercial signal. Obviously the military would prefer the extra guarantee, but in practical terms it's not actually going to make any difference.

The reality is simply that it's all about money. The UK wants the contracts for building the things. Importantly, failing to get the contracts now will likely mean losing a lot of companies and expertise to Europe and so failing to get more contracts (not just EU ones) in the future as well. The UK has done pretty well at building up our satellite industry, and there's been a lot of talk (which may or may not be considered realistic) about developing much more local space-related stuff including launch systems and even manned missions. Seeing a significant portion of that industry up roots and move somewhere else would be a serious blow to those ambitions.

So no, the UK government is certainly not "most upset" about losing access to the PRS signal, they don't give the slightest shit about it. It's just a handy thing to point at and shout about national security rather than admit it's actually about money and thinking that having our own rockets will make them look good.

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Re: Bollocks

"The UK has done pretty well at building up our satellite industry"

That's bollocks too.

The UK satellite industry has done pretty well at creating and growing itself DESPITE constant attempts by the UK government to sabotage it.

And I say that as someone who's been working in the UK space industry for the last couple of decades.

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Re: Bollocks

And I say that as someone who's been working in the UK space industry for the last couple of decades.

That was also my impression, having spent most of the '90s working at ESA. Good UK companies existed, UK government programmes existed, but if there was ever an intersection between the two, it eluded me.

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MJI
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All a big fail

Did people really thing EU exit would go well?

Anyway, it is pretty silly to block us from Galileo as there are other consequences.

1) They will have to refund our contribution.

2) We can turn off their UK developed encryption.

Even though I disagree with leaving, I think the EU are playing this wrong with Galileo. The UK could easily scupper it.

Anyway since it was developed here I am sure we could just use it without EU permission.

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Brexit means Brexit

Only a muppet would be surprised at this.

I used to be a member of a gym.

I left that gym.

Surprise, surprise I can no longer use that gym, unless I join again

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Re: Brexit means Brexit

>Surprise, surprise I can no longer use that gym, unless I join again

At least you have the option to rejoin.

I and many others contributed to the building of a swimming pool at my old school, when I left I no longer had access to the swimming pool...

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Anonymous Coward

Those slides though...

You can almost hear the distant screams of an EU official in charge of brand guidelines...

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