back to article Galileo, here we go again. My my, the Brits are gonna miss EU

The House of Commons Select Committee for Science and Technology yesterday hauled UK government bigwigs in to explain themselves in light of the latest round of Galileo handbag-swinging. However, anyone hoping to see Minister for Defence Procurement Guto Bebb, Head of Cyber and Space Policy Nick Ayling, or UK Space Agency …

Re: Nose, face, bite ...

It was the UK that made the rules and now your complaining because the EU is following the rules that we asked them to implement? They are not being spiteful, you guys are in cake-and-eat-it land.

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Re: Nose, face, bite ...

"There are many agreements which do not depend on membership of the EU, and this feels like a spiteful baby/bathtub response with no benefit to the EU"

That might be true of a lot of agreements. In this particular agreement it is, however, a condition of the Galileo project that the UK particularly wanted so spite doesn't come into it. Beware of what you wish for; you might get it.

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Getting a bit ridiculous

There are six satellite navigation systems already and now the UK wants to add a seventh. Space is big but really all that stuff flying around, traffic could start getting difficult.

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Re: Getting a bit ridiculous

Not that difficuly on account of space being really big. So the space between satellites being high. Give or take dodging space junk, which may increase if the SHTF in any big way.

But we're meant to be technologists. So there are 6 competing satnav systems. The original being GPS, which had it's SA mode to degrade accuracy. Geeks being geeks, and accurate navigation being really useful, came up with a variety of solutions to improve accuracy. So differential GPS, WAAS, A-GPS etc. So having 6 different satnav systems means you should be able to come up with something that can use multiple sources + INS to figure out how precisely lost you are. Which also means you've got more resilience if one or more signal sources is lost, and could probably also detect/prevent spoofing.

That would probably cost a lot less than designing & launching our own satellite. Especially as we'd also need to design, build and fit suitable navigation systems to use the signal(s) as well. Plus to be really secure, we'd need an independent way to launch LEO navsats for coverage or replace any that have been kinetically degraded. I'm guessing that trying to install a UK navigation system into say, an F-35 and integrate that would be.. expensive.

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Re: Getting a bit ridiculous

I wouldn't hold your breath. The UK has plenty of form when it comes to shitty badly implemented half assed contacts that spiral way over budget...

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This is, of course, due to the fact that the UK will not be permitted to take part in, and certainly not bid on, anything to do with the sensitive security and encryption components used in the Galileo satellite navigation constellation.

My shiny thing and you can't play with it.

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Stop

Lawyers will grow fat

Furthermore, the delay in Galileo caused by UK withdrawal could result in the UK's version being operational at roughly the same time – mid-2020s, according to Bebb.

Given the decades of development of Galileo, that can surely only be achieved by massive reuse of Galileo IPR?

I foresee legal battles.

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Re: Lawyers will grow fat

Airbus also gave this warning:

And, for the longer term, the Airbus warning about “repatriating competencies and patents” was an unsubtle reminder that it – and not the UK – owns much of the intellectual property used in aircraft design and manufacture

Airbus raises range of fears in brutal Brexit assessment

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Has anyone come up with any objective criteria which could be agreed by both sides by which we could say, within a reasonable number of years, whether Brexit has succeeded or failed economically?

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@ Doctor Syntax

"Has anyone come up with any objective criteria which could be agreed by both sides by which we could say, within a reasonable number of years, whether Brexit has succeeded or failed economically?"

I dont think anyone has to be honest. Probably because the EU sets the bar so low that any objective criteria would almost certainly lead us out of the EU.

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Re: @ Doctor Syntax

"Probably because the EU sets the bar so low that any objective criteria would almost certainly lead us out of the EU."

Just the attitude I worry about. If the UK GDP had dropped by 50% of pre-referendum level you'd still point to this or that and proclaim a success.

How about we can agree it's a success if UK GDP rises by 5% and a failure if it falls by 5% in 5 years, relative to pre-referendum level and adjusted for any overall change in world GDP? Or maybe a 5% increase or decrease in balance of trade? Or some measure of living standards or employment? Personally I'd be delighted if, by some such measure, Brexit were to be proclaimed a success. Delighted but astonished.

Remember the Yes Prime Minister episode where any proposal was to be accompanied by failure standards? Somehow that never caught on in real life government or political circles. What a pity.

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Re: @ Doctor Syntax

@ Doctor Syntax

"Just the attitude I worry about. If the UK GDP had dropped by 50% of pre-referendum level you'd still point to this or that and proclaim a success."

Really? Why?

"How about we can agree it's a success if UK GDP rises by 5% and a failure if it falls by 5% in 5 years, relative to pre-referendum level and adjusted for any overall change in world GDP?"

Why? What will the world look like in 5 years? Will the EU still be going by then and if so will they be dragging the world down with their economic crisis? Will there be a full blown trade war? What fantasy do you have in your head for the world in 5 years and unless you are clairvoyant that is all it is.

"Personally I'd be delighted if, by some such measure, Brexit were to be proclaimed a success"

Then you would have to do something I have yet to see by remainers in these forums and understand what a success is. For example heading towards normalising the economy (increase core inflation, increasing the base rate, as the brexit vote delivered) is a good thing. When an idiot cries about the fall in currency you slap them with fact. You also need to recognise failure, such as the EU's high unemployment and economic mismanagement. If you cant then you will always think things are bad no matter how wrong you are factually.

This is why I repeat myself a lot on these forums because I am correcting the same mistakes, the same doom and gloom interpretations of success and the same championing of failure.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: @ Doctor Syntax

>This is why I repeat myself a lot on these forums because I am correcting the same mistakes, the same doom and gloom interpretations of success and the same championing of failure.

Just out of interest. Can you confirm what your qualifications and relevant experience in global economic theory are please? Just so that we can be certain that you are:

a). an expert.

b). Not just some random guy off the internet that keeps repeating half-baked idea as gospel.

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Re: @ Doctor Syntax

@AC

"Can you confirm what your qualifications and relevant experience in global economic theory are please?"

No. Can you confirm your alias (not even your name, just the account you post from)?

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Re: @ Doctor Syntax

"Really? Why?"

I think the rest of your post answers that question quite well.

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Re: @ Doctor Syntax

@ Doctor Syntax

"I think the rest of your post answers that question quite well."

Your lack of a crystal ball? Your arbitrary targets? Or your not sure what is a success or failure? I can see the last one matching up but I want to be sure.

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Anonymous Coward

Has anyone come up with any objective criteria which could be agreed by both sides by which we could say, within a reasonable number of years, whether Brexit has succeeded or failed economically?

Before the referendum UK growth was slightly ahead of that in the EU. I'd suggest that a tolerable Brexit would be maintaining that level of growth, and a good Brexit would be exceeding it and widening the gap with the EU.

Economic failure would probably be EU growth exceeding UK growth over, say, 10 years, but I'd also make that conditional on EU populist parties not continuing to grow. That would concern me more than plain economic issues.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: @ Doctor Syntax

"How about we can agree it's a success if UK GDP rises by 5% and a failure if it falls by 5% in 5 years, relative to pre-referendum level and adjusted for any overall change in world GDP? Or maybe a 5% increase or decrease in balance of trade? Or some measure of living standards or employment? Personally I'd be delighted if, by some such measure, Brexit were to be proclaimed a success. Delighted but astonished."

The problem is that a lot of the long term damage will be slower growth.

If the economy grows by 5% over ten years after Brexit, the Brexiteers will claim victory, regardless of the likelihood of 15% growth or more over the same time period without Brexit.... despite the 10%+ hit to GDP.

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As no one has come up with any objective criteria which could be agreed by both sides of the government as to whether Brexit has even happened, I would say no.

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Hosted by its own petard

The very reason EU wanted its own navigation system was that the US refused to give military grade signal to its allies. Britain worked hard on making rules which make it impossible to give such a high-quality data to third countries. Now iit is a third country. Need I to say anything more?

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Thumb Up

Great headline!

It scans and everything...

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Re: Great headline!

Yes, thanks, I was aware.

In fact I was watching the film with my daughter this weekend, but don't tell anyone...

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Re: Great headline!

There's a film!?

I knew there was a musical.

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Anonymous Coward

Lets just get on with it . . . .

Nigel Farage has got on with it and got himself a German passport (allegedly)

Jacob Rees-Mogg is getting on with it moving his hedge fund out of the UK.

John Redwood (remember him?) is getting on with it raising his clients to move their assets out of the UK.

With confidence like that I'm surprised the Remainers aren't dancing in the streets.

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Re: Lets just get on with it . . . .

Don't forget Lawson (Nigel) getting French citizenship

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Unhappy

With confidence like that I'm surprised the Remainers aren't dancing in the streets.

Like most politicians it's a case of "Do what I say, not what I do."

JRM and Redwood may be delusional little Britain fantasists, but they aren't actually stupid.

That's what makes them dangerous.

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Re: Lets just get on with it . . . .

"With confidence like that I'm surprised the Remainers aren't dancing in the streets."

Why? It's no cause for jubilation.

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Re: Lets just get on with it . . . .

"Don't forget Lawson (Nigel) getting French citizenship"

He's hardly my friend (pro-Brexit climate change denier) but I think your claim is incorrect. As far as I'm aware he's applied for a "carte de sejours" (spelling?) which I gather is something like the UK Indefinite Leave to Remain.

Something which only becomes relevant now that freedom of movement for UK nationals is about to end. :(( Which I find v upsetting as many of my friends and colleagues and their children and myself have benefitted from that freedom. Particularly upsetting for the young Brits I know who grew up in NL and could have gotten an NL passport (while retaining their UK nationality) but didn't bother with that as they already had an EU passport - now they're truly stuffed. I am v p**** off with wealthy older folk like Lawson who have benefitted from freedom of movement, etc. and are now denying that to others.

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Re: Lets just get on with it . . . .

"Why? It's no cause for jubilation."

I really didn't think I needed the sarcasm indicator. Or are you sarcasm-ing me?

It's too hot and my brain is frying.

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Re: Lets just get on with it . . . .

"I really didn't think I needed the sarcasm indicator."

There seems to be a line of thought that Remainers actually want Brexit to fail. That needs to be made clear to them. Thank you for providing an opportunity.

"It's too hot and my brain is frying."

You're not alone.

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Re: Lets just get on with it . . . .

he's applied for a "carte de sejours" (spelling?) which I gather is something like the UK Indefinite Leave to Remain.

A Carte de Sejour is essentially a residence permit, which fulfils the requirement for carrying ID when you don't have a French ID card. I got mine when I moved to France pre-EU, it was valid for 10 years. US citizens got one that was valid for 5 years. When I renewed mine the replacement had indefinite validity. My (British) wife recently tried to renew hers and was told that they weren't doing that now, because the government offices that issue them were short-staffed and they were too busy. It wasn't Brexit-related.

Overall it's not especially useful, since (unlike an ID card) it is clearly marked as not usable as ID for travel purposes, but it can come in handy when a bank or similar organization asks for proof of ID.

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Re: Lets just get on with it . . . .

"There seems to be a line of thought that Remainers actually want Brexit to fail."

No, we don't want it to fail, we just expect it to because it's basically insanity gone somewhere to happen, and we're not quite so delusional that we're content to accept the "it'll all turn out alright" lies when they are told by people moving their assets of of harm's way.

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Re: Lets just get on with it . . . .

>"We had EU agreement for projects ... without any political union.

We had trade deals with the EU without political union."

We could have them again! Remember M.Thatcher only joined the EU so that the UK had a seat at the table that controlled the Single Market & Customs Union and thus could protect UK interests. Unfortunately, it is the Conservative hardliners who think and want leaving the 'EU' to include leaving the Single Market and Customs Union among other things.

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Re: Lets just get on with it . . . .

>The EU are dictating that we MUST have political union to have a trade union.

It is T.May and her team who have linked the two together and decided that a trade union such as being in the EEA/"Norway" option etc. isn't Brexit enough...

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Re: Lets just get on with it . . . .

"We had trade deals with the EU without political union."

It's called EFTA. But that's already been dismissed because it has...the word "European" in the title?

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Lets just get on with it . . . .

He's not currently applying for French citizenship.

He's applying for a titre de sejour. And as an EU citizen he has the automatic right to one.

A right that will be deleted for UK citizens and something that he has campaigned for.

The hypocritical old ****.

Still at least he doesn't hold a Belize passport like some Leave.EU campaign leaders.

Nothing speaks English patriotic fervour like holding a Central American second passport.

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Re: Lets just get on with it . . . .

>Overall it's not especially useful, since (unlike an ID card) it is clearly marked as not usable as ID for travel purposes, but it can come in handy when a bank or similar organization asks for proof of ID.

So it IS useful then.

Unless you want to carry your passport and an EDF bill around as your proof of address.

Cartes de sejours were valid ID for travel in Schengen up until the recent post-Paris & Nice terror attack travel security changes.

It will also be very useful after brexit as it is, in fact, an adjunct to you passport and will get you back into France with less hassle.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Lets just get on with it . . . .

No, we don't want it to fail, we just expect it to

And so you do nothing to help it succeed, and become part of the problem.

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Re: Lets just get on with it . . . .

Remember M.Thatcher only joined the EU

Do remainers have any clue at all about the EU?

Thatcher did not join the EU, and had she still been PM at the time I doubt if she would have done so. It was John Major that signed Maastricht, without a referendum because all the opinion polls showed that he would have lost it if he'd called one.

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Re: Lets just get on with it . . . .

It's called EFTA. But that's already been dismissed because it has...the word "European" in the title?

No, it's being dismissed because Norway said "no". They don't want the UK taking over EFTA.

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Re: Lets just get on with it . . . .

And as an EU citizen he has the automatic right to one.

A right that will be deleted for UK citizens and something that he has campaigned for.

He won't have a right to it, but that doesn't mean he can't get one post Brexit, he just has to ask. Like non-EU citizens who want to come to France do.

It's a common remainer misconception that being in the EU is the only thing that makes living in another EU country possible. It doesn't, it simply makes it easier. Post-Brexit, any UK citizen will still be perfectly entitled to ask for a residence permit in any EU country. The only change will be that the country can say "no'. And why should countries not be able to say "no"?

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Re: Lets just get on with it . . . .

Cartes de sejours were valid ID for travel in Schengen

Technically once you were in Schengen you didn't need any documents to travel around the zone, since there were no borders, so having a Carte de Séjour was irrelevant. Once France re-established border controls then ID was again required, and a Carte de Séjour is not sufficient. French government websites are quite explicit, it is not a valid travel document.

It will also be very useful after brexit as it is, in fact, an adjunct to you passport and will get you back into France with less hassle.

It won't make any difference, the only required document is a passport and the rules for that are defined by treaties far older than the EU. I've never been asked for my Carte de Séjour at any border. I tend to use it when someone wants me to leave a "Pièce d'identité", say for ski or bike rental, mostly because I'd be less worried about it getting lost than I would about my drivers licence.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Lets just get on with it . . . .

Ahh - so when it fails it's all us remainers' fault. Brexiteers: basically the 50 something guy who told his wife that he doesn't love her any more and wants a divorce. And is now moaning because it turns out that she has a better lawyer than him, and gets the house, car and custody of the dog, and is about to find out that the 20 something secretary in his office who 'flirted' with him at the Xmas party actually think's he is an old has-been, and is so not interested in his balding pate and beer belly. But none of it is his fault, if only his wife had been reasonable!

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Re: Lets just get on with it . . . .

Phil O'Sophical>He won't have a right to it, but that doesn't mean he can't get one post Brexit,

You're right Phil. Rich old people who are already receiving a big fat pension and live in a Chateau probably will not have an issue getting a carte de sejour after brexit.

It's a common brexiter misconception that having all your rights removed by your compatriots will just mean you've got a few extra forms to fill. But as so many are of pensionable age it would be difficult for them to understand that for some people work, education & pension rights are now over.

But hey, there are still the shits 'n' giggles as all the deep technical and social issues that'll arise from brexit finally dawn on its architects. I honestly can't wait to enjoy the next few years.

"Brexit means brexit!" That is the soundbite that just keeps on giving in all aspects of this and all the subsequent catastrofucks brexit will so obviously lead to.

Enjoy!

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Unhappy

so many..of pensionable age..difficult..to understand..some people('s)..rights are now over

True.

I wonder if people will look back on Brexit and think "Yeah, that's the time when the old betrayed the young by depriving them of their future for some bu***hit fantasy."

Actually the only real dividing line I found when I asked my British friends how they voted was this.

The Remainers were all Graduates. None of the Leavers had a degree, although I'd say they could have all earned one.

Beyond that no markers for age, ethnicity or gender.

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Re: so many..of pensionable age..difficult..to understand..some people('s)..rights are now over

@ John Smith 19

I wonder if people will look back on Brexit and think "Yeah, that's the time when the old betrayed the young by depriving them of their future for some bu***hit fantasy."

I dont know. I expect it will be one of those things brushed under the rug like Euro supporters who pretty much vanished once eurosceptics were proven right. I am wondering how the EU will be remembered depending on its time in existence. Will it survive long enough and do enough good to outweigh the damage it has inflicted? And will it be remembered as a positive attempt that lost its way or just a fleeting thought to be forgotten like the USSR.

"Actually the only real dividing line I found when I asked my British friends how they voted was this.

The Remainers were all Graduates. None of the Leavers had a degree, although I'd say they could have all earned one."

I found a similar line (with few outliers) in my social circle. Students and recent graduates supported remain while those who work or at least have some life experience tended toward leave. I dont try to infer anything from that EU wise though. But as with you age, ethnicity and gender didnt seem to make a difference.

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Re: so many..of pensionable age..difficult..to understand..some people('s)..rights are now over

You're really desperate to find any excuse that fits with your convictions that leavers didn't know what they were doing, aren't you. I have a feeling that life is going to be such a disappointment to you.

The Remainers were all Graduates. None of the Leavers had a degree, although I'd say they could have all earned one.

Ah, the old "my friends told me so" argument. I have a degree (I'm a chartered engineer). I support leave.

And how does "Beyond that no markers for age, ethnicity or gender." fit with "that's the time when the old betrayed the young"?

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