What I ghastly mess. I hope those who voted to leave realise soon that they made the WRONG choice.
The UK has voted to leave the European Union, confounding the polls, the "experts" and the British establishment in the biggest turnout for a vote here in 24 years. Prime Minister David Cameron announced his resignation at 8:30am this morning. The count stands at 51.9 per cent Leave, and 48.1 per cent remain – and more than a …
What I ghastly mess. I hope those who voted to leave realise soon that they made the WRONG choice.
I sincerely hope that we can now put aside any differences of remain/leave and unite as a country and get on with the job in hand.
Having read quite a bit of the thread and sour grapes from the remain campaign (although I will accept that it is still early on in the bereavement process) I'm quite disappointed in the negative viewpoints espoused. It's almost like people who voted to stay in the EU are used to having everything done for them.
Well. news-flash - the world has changed and you can't expect others to do things. If you aren't happy about the result, I understand. However, to sit back and not take part in what it takes to get Britain working properly again just so you can say 'I told you so' is not, in my opinion, a long-term winning strategy.
By all means mourn the result based on your own beliefs, but once you have finished grieving please, for the love of all that's good about this country, get on board with the decision and make the best of it.
I love this country, but I'm not happy about the way things have been going politically for many years. Too many politicians appear subservient to entrenched bureaucrats in Whitehall, that's something I'd like to see change.
I know it's easy to believe this is about racism/bigotry etc. - I'm not keen on the message that brought us to this point because I believe it to be disingenuous and disrespectful - I'm guessing the leave campaigners thought that most people might not understand some of the more involved reasons to leave, which is a shame because it's started us off on the back foot.
What we have now is an opportunity to build on the fact that 72% of the electorate turned out to vote during some of the shittiest weather we've seen all year. People do *care*. Now we just need to make sure we all have something positive to care about.
Agree, total mess. I expect over a million of them will by this time next month. The ludicrous obsession of the politicians equating 'first past the post' with democracy once again fails the nation.
Nevetheless, its hard to blame people from the north east coming out so strongly in favour of leave after the way Redcar steelworks was abandoned casually with blame assigned to EU (contrast with Port Talbot). Or after the voice of the people of Yorkshire (where more people voted in the referendum than in Scotland) has been studiously ignored for years by the scottish/london political establishment (tory and labour).
Referendum. Stupid question, who expected anything but a stupid answer.
The only thing I've got used to is very occasionally having the worst excesses my gov would like to commit blocked. Getting to vote every 5 years for the least offensive bag of policies on offer followed by 3 years of doing whatever they like gives far too much opportunity for mischief.
> Too many politicians appear subservient to entrenched bureaucrats in Whitehall,
How is coming out of the EU going to change that? Last time I looked, the "entrenched bureaucrats in Whitehall" were park of the *UK* Government, not the EU one.
If anything, it's going to increase the power of the entrenched bureaucracies since there are going to have to be lots of changes to law and MPs don't have the ability or training to frame new laws.
And as proof of that, I present the Snoopers Charter. Does anyone really think that Teresa May wrote a word of it? Especially given how similar it is to the previous Tory/Labour versions..
Yeah I'm amazed at how many people (well 17.4 million) think that Britain is now going to become some wonderful egalitarian economic powerhouse that has freedoms and representations for all and will embrace and support the 'common man'. That all of the existing Govt infrastructure will be swept aside and a new fairer Britain that every country will want to be best mates with, will emerge.
The truth is the only people liberated are the 1%/establishment who can now rip us off with 100% impunity and with ALL laws now fully supporting them.
For the record, I don't think all our problems are just going to magically disappear overnight now we're out of the EU, far from it.
What we *do* have now is an opportunity to put things right. However, in order to do so the people of this country are going to have to put aside trivial differences and start tackling the things that really matter - otherwise like you say, it will just be more of the same.
Let's be honest..more of the same then. Just with less money and fewer jobs.
The agenda will carry on. It will now be easier.
Well, Jason 7, if that's your attitude then it probably is likely, especially if other people feel the same way.
It sounds like apathy, but it could be cynicism, either way it's not very productive.
"Argue for your limitations, and sure enough they will be yours" - don't recall who said that, but it's true.
Well I think my cynicism has served me quite well so far in light of the past 48 hours revelations.
Now we know that Leave never expected to win in the first place and our 'scaremongering experts' were correct.
I don't see what's wrong with being able to know bullshit when I see it.
Better to be cynical than irresponsibly naive.
Will Nigel Farage be leading Nu-Luddites, fighting the automation coming to a workplace near you soon Or will he be drinking martini's with his banker friends?
Your time to decide TXT 01626 831 plus the following:
Add 290 & TXT: Nu-Luddite
Add 290 & TXT: Drinking Martini's?
I would have thought his MEPs are not too keen on losing their jobs soon. Whilst they did nothing, I'm sure they enjoyed all the perks going. Plus without his MEPs...UKIP is basically totally defunct and he can just disappear. Hopefully.
So the roaming charges that were supposed to go, will remain? Even go higher?
Read my Lips, No more Caps.
I bet the Telcos voted and lobbied hard for out.
The way the pound sterling is going they can expect to vastly increase their wages as requested. Sad thing is that since they don produce much of anything on the island, they'll all have to live off tourism and have to pay their days wages polishing shoes and dragging some fat ass Kraut around the pristine country side in a rickshaw for a single spud they can share with their lovable offspring.
Hooray for the new Dickens stories that will no doubt spring from the pen of some creative who manages to sell his books. Ehm,.. if they manage to get copyright treaties that is. Will take some decades to negotiate on that I guess. But at least they can expect to have to negotiate only with the EU and the rest of the world including IP friendly entities like China.
Let's see how much of a deterrent the enfolding situation of the UK economy can be made to keep the rest of the pack together. Oh right,.. your local politicians forgot to explain that the EU is a trade pact rather than anything else. I guess that will be made very clear shortly by others.
"Bruderlein, Bruderlein,.. Wass? Willts Du nich mein Bruder sein? Dann släg Ich dir dein Schedel ein!", Was a border crossing song in May 1940. Now for sure other means will be used to get that point across this time, but I am afraid it will hurt just about as much.
I am saddened by the utter lack of competence on the side of the remain camp to create a clear message and the turmoil EU bigots have managed to cause on a world scale. And clearly the hurting won't be over yet as this result will fester on the whole continent for a long time just while the last crisis was more or less contained.
But for sure, this is a great day for China and other emerging markets to find one strong competitor severely weakened and one (still member for the time being) state voting itself into oblivion. With the populist shrinkheads and their limited thoughtframes making a strong case for xenophobic tendencies in Europe, I expect some more turmoil to ensue as well.
" Always look at the bright side of life..."
I am looking forward the great Polio comeback and Landlords to have the right to put "No Blacks No Irish!" signs up in their windows again.
I expect there would be those who would argue the assertion that every person of low intelligence will have voted to leave.
If you argue against the assertion that every racist voted to leave, I'll just laugh.
This is like having a Government elected thanks to the Far Right support.
It's what you get when almost everyone involved tells lies but one side had a 30yr head start doing it.
"I expect there would be those who would argue the assertion that every person of low intelligence will have voted to leave."
Surely Labour voters were mostly in favour of remain as per the party line?
"This is like having a Government elected thanks to the Far Right support."
You could always emigrate to the 3rd world country of your choice if you want to live with those from a different culture so much?
Not so fast. We know the voting is heavily manipulated, and under control by the NWO.
I believe we are looking at another Rothchild trick; I'll explain...
When Napoleon was defeated, a rider that worked for Rothchild raced to London and informed the markets that Napoleon had won. The prices then collapsed and that enabled Rothchild to buy up the market for pennies on the pound. Then the real news came out that Napoleon was defeated, and it was already too late because Rothchild had most of the wealth at that point.
I believe in a matter of days, or maybe only hours, there will be some sort of announcement of a miscount, or a stipulation where the U.K. will not ctually leave the E.U. I think it will be a "miscount", because that will have the biggest impact on the markets.
This is nothing but a transfer of wealth from the lower classes to the Oligarchy.
You forgot to use CAPITALS and 'scare' quotes
Just one referendum and that's it is a bit of a shock. We need to get the hang of this voting marlarky - people are too used to thinking their vote won't count.
Should be a best of three -
The first referendum gets all the votes for people who care quite a lot about the issue.
The second one would encourage more people to vote who didn't quite care enough to vote the first time, but enough to be horrified about the result (and would probably push the vote the other way especially after having seen how close it was).
The third one is the one that counts, that would have everyone voting who wants a say in the future, and we have to stick with that result.
So the whole country gets sacrificed on the alter of Boris' ambition.... At least there is no reason for Farage to exist any more.. to much to hope he has vanished already I suppose....
I hate to say I saw this coming. I didnt expect leave to win but regardless of who did the expectation was the same. Now I read people complaining the lines need to be redrawn and it shouldnt be a majority but a greater majority. Or complaining that who should vote should be changed to get the right answer. Even threats against those who voted the 'wrong' way. And the real inspirer's of a better future- ignore the result and people dont deserve the vote/democracy/choice.
Of course this contrasts with arguments against FPTP and demands for PR. Somehow half the population are branded (since leave won it is racists) and the real reasons ignored (economy, law, immigration, etc).
I somewhat blame the campaigns of FUD and hatred, also known as the official campaigns of both sides. I wonder if the voters can put aside their irrational oppositions and get on. Or maybe we will give democracy a bad name and something for the less democratic countries to laugh at.
To be fair, an argument for a meaningful majority requirement does have merit. It's clear that there are almost as many people choosing one way than the other right now. Do you know what they call making large sweeping corrective changes based on the tiniest of input signals in process control? "A recipe for instability"...
"To be fair, an argument for a meaningful majority requirement does have merit."
In no way was half of the population going to be happy regardless of the result. But redefining a meaningful majority, the EU didnt get one. This is the first ever vote for the EU (not common market). The problem with redefining is the ease of supporting any viewpoint. That is why the rules are agreed at first and then acted upon. And why there was outrage at the constant attempts to rewrite the rules when the vote wasnt certain of the 'right' answer.
We should at the very least be proud and vocal about accepting democratic choice, especially by those demanding it in general elections. And of course now is the opportunity for the remain camp. If they can graciously accept the result they can make a case to the EU to actually deal with its crisis (multiple) as well as making a case for us to not turn our back on Europe (on the whole including EU). The leave camp consisted of some racists who want to block us off as well as globalists who want to open up further than the EU allows. Now is a time to snatch victory from a defeat instead of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.
Or people can keep calling each other names and squabble until there is nothing left. Claiming victory over rubble is a hollow victory.
Got 3 upset teenagers here, all wanted to stay in.
Can the downvoters please give their email address so I can set the teenagers onto them?
No one in Germany is going to destroy their own car industry just so the president of the EU can march around claiming he is 'punishing' the UK. It may be a bumpy ride, but we are in a very strong negotiating position to secure trade deals from the countries that matter in the EU.
Oh and that small matter of democracy that so many of you forget about - yes it is important that the UK is able to choose who lives here, who we trade with, and which laws we live by. The idea that we can't survive outside the EU is simply not true. We were told by the same organisations that we couldn't survive without the Euro, and look how that turned out.
Probably written for him by the UK government.
An American wouldn't know what a queue was if he joined one. He would ask
"What is this line for?"
I rather believe is a good thing for the EU and a catastrophe for UK, the first move towards its disintegration.
Future will tell.
> catastrophe for UK, the first move towards its disintegration.
Nigel Farage - the man who destroyed the UK. With assistance from clown-car Boris..
I thought both campaigns were a disgrace, There were 2 primary issues that concern me and not once did either address.
There is a fundamental lack of democracy at the centre of EU politics, exactly how would this be dealt with, e.g.
"The European Parliament may approve or reject a legislative proposal, or propose amendments to it. The Council is not legally obliged to take account of Parliament's opinion but in line with the case-law of the Court of Justice, it must not take a decision without having received it. "
So the EU parliament, the only place you have a vote in Europe, can be ignored.
The legal system differences between the majority of the EU and the UK, how are these expected to be reconciled.
UK system has common law, precedent, and is also based on 'that which is not banned is allowed'.
EU ( most ) no common law, no precedent and based on 'that which is not allowed is banned'.
These questions will also be relevant for the, no doubt, inevitable new Scottish Independence Referendum.
Maybe our political servants will answer these questions then, but I won't be holding my breath.
"UK system has common law, precedent,"
Correct, basically common law is made by tradition and not codified, therefore more difficult to know. Though in practice most of our life is governed by statute law (made by parliament) and case law (made by the courts) For most of us the contracts we enter into also have a major impact on our lives (and in practice they're little different between the common law and Roman law traditions).
"and is also based on 'that which is not banned is allowed'."
"EU ( most ) no common law, no precedent"
IANAL but: Roman/civil law traditions are, in practice, not that different from common law traditions. Court decisions form precedent, just like in the UK.
" and based on 'that which is not allowed is banned'."
Not that again! Please quote a source. I'm not a lawyer but I have read a fair number of textbooks on English and Dutch law and I've never come across that. This unfounded claim has been bugging me for years. It's propaganda at its worst, repeated without foundation. Basically a sodding lie.
And while slating Roman/civil law please remember that Scotland has does not have a common law system either, more of a hybrid. Oh, and for the last X centuries folk practicing common law have been exceedingly fond of using Latin terms so it must have held some attractions to them.
You're repeating propaganda; assuming you're genuine, it'd pay to research your claims. You're especially wide of the mark regarding the respective legal systems, and their histories.
Start with the Flexcit plan (linked by Andrew in the article).
There has been so much ignorance, lies and FUD from both sides of the official campaigns (including our dear BBC). How many here have actually read the text of Cameron's "deal"? How many understand the difference between the Europe, the EU and the Single Market (and the significance of the differences? How many have any understanding of how the EU actually works?
I'm just delighted that enough of the Demos voted against what our ruling elites said we should do that we have some small chance to move to a better world out of the EU. I expect however that we will be told that it was a "protest vote", offered some pretend "reforms" and told to vote again, as were the Irish.
Democracy where only the "correct" answer is allowed is no democracy at all, and what is in the interest of the incumbent elites is not necessarily what is best for the country or the people in it.
Interesting. Most of the "immigration" and "culture hijacking" comments were made in a book I just read.
"Rhubarb Rhubarb"; selected columns from the Daily Mirror by Keith Waterhouse.
He was mocking those who said such things.
The book was published in 1978.
I don't like it one bit.
How so many people can vote for .. well what ? Even the Leave campaigners don't know what happens next, they are just hoping for the best. We'll I'll give you an example, trade negotiations with the US:
US: Bend over, here's the vaseline
UK : What ???
US: Sorry, no vaseline, bend over anyway
UK: Will this hurt ?
US: Let's start with full access to your NHS for our healthcare industry
UK: That does hurt !!
Pretty stunned at the outcome but a votes a vote, and the country will get what its voted for regardless of the gnashing of teeth widely heard. As IT specialists we should respect the will of the populace and need to get down and make the best of it.
So with that making a best of a bad decision I shorted sterling on forex as a insurance which has gone some way to offset the pain of the loss of value of my sterling resources while I'm getting them out at a point when the market stabalizes a little before the real pain starts, and today I'm starting with helping a company plan its migration of its UK based IT onto mainland Europe instead.
There's money to be made. It's a dark cloud that doesn't have a silver lining and all that!
Demographically the result pitted the working class and the provincial middle class against London’s bien pensant elites.
Demographically the result pitted the old vs the young, and the educated vs the non-educated. With the older generation voting heavily in favour of leaving, while the younger generation who'll have to deal with this crap voted strongly to stay.
Meanwhile those with higher education (college and above) voted by majority to remain, while those with no further education from school voted most strongly to leave.
To be fair though, the less-educated were the ones receiving the most competition and resulting wage and job pressure due to immigration. If tomorrow, a quarter million qualified IT workers arrived in the UK, within a month this website would be full of "where did all these damned foreigners come from" complaints.
"... If tomorrow, a quarter million qualified IT workers arrived in the UK, within a month this website would be full of "where did all these damned foreigners come from".."
Funny you mention that..
The India-European Union Free Trade Agreement (India-EU FTA) will be finalised by EU Trade Commissioner Cecilia Malmstrom (who ? you may well ask) in July.
(The treaty offers labour market mobility for Indian IT workers, engineers and managers into the EU in return for reduced tariffs in goods exported into India.)
Now with Britain excluded from this agreement, the Indian media is even more livid than the Grauniad is about the Brexit result.
But it could just be that most of the commentards in this thread are PHB's that have realised a cheap supply of labour will never arrive thanks to chavs and northern rawcist plebs exercising their voting rights. Just a thought ;-)
If the EU-India agreement is what you stated, British IT workers may have dodged a bullet. Offering labor mobility to workers who come in at 50-70 cents on the dollar vs. local workers is a horrible idea.
So with Cameron gone, does that mean we can look forward to (read: fear) Theresa May becoming overlord?
It really was an English vote. Scotland and Northern Ireland voted to remain. Which is kind of ironic!
The Welsh voted to leave.
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