back to article No fandango for you: EU boots UK off Galileo satellite project

It's official: the UK is going to be booted off the Galileo satellite GPS program as a result of Brexit, despite furious protestations from Britain that it's a special case. The decision was reached by all 27 member states of Europe at a meeting on Tuesday and was confirmed in a slide deck [PDF] released on Wednesday. Just …

  1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
    Thumb Up

    That just puts the problem over to a future generation,

    Fu**ing genius plan.

  2. strum Silver badge

    Re: Well

    >We do not have to apply those rules here.

    Just another fugue from reality. No business can survive by producing goods to several different standards. An exporting business will now have to meet all relevant standards - not just CE.

  3. codejunky Silver badge
    FAIL

    Re: Well

    @ H in The Hague

    "Brilliant - now manufacturers potentially need even more, different standards to adhere to. That's going to make manufacturing so much more efficient."

    Are you somehow claiming we dont trade with other countries outside the EU because we dont abide by all the various and conflicting rules for all the various countries? We do not need to apply the importing countries standards to our own country. If that was true then countries would not be able to trade.

  4. Roland6 Silver badge

    Re: Well

    @Codejunky re: "We do not need to apply the importing countries standards to our own country"

    To some extent I agree with you that there has been some overstatement of the upcoming problems which are more to do with divergence and specifically two types of divergence:

    1. Between product standards for UK customers and for Single Market customers.

    2. Administration and logistics associated with imports/exports

    Of the two, I'm more concerned about the added complexity of administration and logistics, because potentially UK exports to the Single Market will no longer go through the "Members Only" channel, likewise UK exports to the RoW will no longer go through the "Imports from the EU Single Market" channel...

    Others will be concerned about product divergence, for example I can see T.May demanding security backdoors, whereas the Single Market demanding the absence of backdoors, likewise our exports to the RoW will (potentially) no longer be able to simply apply the standards agreed for products from the Single Market but will use the standards agreed individually with each country...

    The devil is definitely going to be in the detail, which will in turn depend on just what gets agreed and with "Brexit meaning Brexit" we will probably only know whats been agreed at the last minute...

  5. codejunky Silver badge

    Re: Well

    @ Dr. Mouse

    "If this has affected our growth during this time, which it will, then the repercussions last at least until our growth offsets the reduction in growth over those few years."

    Even the pessimistic views showed continued growth. They had reduced growth than if we remained but there were pessimistic outlooks by remain.

    "Ireland wants to remain a part of the EU, and the EU has rules to control it's external border."

    So by that statement it is not ROI nor UK that is the problem. I dont care if you want to blame Ireland or the EU but it isnt our problem. We aint arguing for a border, we are arguing against.

    "The EU doesn't want a border between the UK and the rest of the EU"

    If that was even half true the EU wouldnt be insisting on a border. You counter your own claims by claiming the EU doesnt want a border because the UK doesnt want one yet some idiot is arguing for one. It aint us.

    "- A main part of the campaign to leave was removing freedom of movement.

    - Freedom of movement exists between NI and the rest of the UK.

    - Freedom of movement exists between RoI and the rest of the EU.

    - Therefore if freedom of movement exists between RoI and NI, it exists between UK and EU."

    Controlling our own borders is different to freedom of movement (restricted for the 'approved' countries of the EU). Agreeing to a slightly different agreement for Ireland is pretty easy. Our negotiators have already suggested options, the EU is being stupid and your defending them.

    "I was replying to individual comments, of which there are a lot."

    I get that no worries. I try to consolidate into single comments (per commenter) only because some moaning gits complain I post so many comments.

  6. codejunky Silver badge

    Re: Well

    @AC

    "IF the sectarian conflict recurs, it will be mostly fought in NI and the rest of the UK. That makes the border the UK's problem, no matter who puts it in."

    Hang on, are you calling the Irish idiots? As I keep pointing out we dont want a border and the Irish dont but the EU does. So if the EU makes a border you think the Irish are too stupid to realise it is not the UK who can change anything? I give them more credit than that.

  7. codejunky Silver badge

    Re: Well

    @ Fruit and Nutcase

    "What if the UK were to LEASE Northern Ireland to the Republic for say 99 years"

    Not sure that would work. The current NI gov want out of the EU. Also I am not sure you could make such a deal with the republic since the EU speaks for the republic so the deal would have to be with the EU. And since the EU has barely moved from another existential crisis (Italy) there would have to be a clause for if/when the EU dissolved intentionally or crashed out disorganised.

  8. codejunky Silver badge

    Re: Well

    @ strum

    "Just another fugue from reality. No business can survive by producing goods to several different standards. An exporting business will now have to meet all relevant standards - not just CE."

    I am not sure what you two are arguing. Is it the idea that nobody trades with each other because we all have different standards (except in the EU where we are all similarly restricted)? You do realise that exports must meet the importing countries standards not the exporters. The tighter our rules the less we can export because by the other countries standards they can make less restricted items.

    To try and explain better. If the EU has rules limiting the power of the vacuum cleaner to a barely functional level and other countries can use ones that work that means the EU can probably export, if anyone wants a barely functional item. But the other countries could still export to the EU their less powerful models while at home having what they actually want.

  9. codejunky Silver badge

    Re: Well

    @ Roland6

    That is a very well reasoned comment and I agree the EU will likely end up treated as any other country in the world. It would be nice if we could organise a trade deal of some sort and for them to accept a no border or practically no border option for Ireland but it doesnt seem like they are currently willing. But none of these issues are any different than trading with the world vs the EU currently.

    If a business wants to export anywhere it must meet the standards of the importing country. That doesnt change in or out of the EU, but we wont have to have the EU's standards imposed on our country. People who do not export to the EU will not have to comply with the EU just as they dont need to comply with anyone else they dont export to.

  10. Rob D. Bronze badge
    WTF?

    Re: Well

    > As I keep pointing out we dont want a border and the Irish dont but the EU does.

    The fact that the EU (negotiators) are stating that a border would be required does not equate to the EU stating that they want a border.

    In a distopian future, Portugal votes to leave the EU (just because). The UK government, only a few short years after rejoining the EU and encouraged by patriotically feverish headlines from The Mail and The Sun about keeping close ties with our dear, departing Portuguese friends, is immediately lobbying hard encouraging EU member states to make a special exception for Portugal to maintain an open border with Spain. This in support of the deep cultural links the two countries have and the importance of Portugal maintaining all its trading benefits with the EU even once Portugal is outside the EU.

    Nobody really wants a border with Portugal and it would be churlish to create a disadvantage for Portugal just for leaving. So we change the EU rules to give Portugal a special status that no other country in the world has, and everyone can agree to that, can't they? After all, everyone got right behind the idea of making such special exceptions for the UK over Ireland.

    (Subtitute 'border with Ireland' for 'participate fully in Galileo' to get back on topic.)

  11. Dave Schofield

    Re: Well

    >Not sure that would work. The current NI gov want out of the EU.

    There is no current NI government. The power sharing arrangement collapsed (last year?) after the Cash for Ash scandal. But if/when it reassembles it will probably be against Brexit as the majority of the parties were and - only the DUP was heavily pro-Brexit and they do not have the majority of seats - The DUP have 27, the same as Sinn Fein, but less than Sinn Fein (27), the SDLP (12 seats) and the Alliance Party (8 seats) combined who are against Brexit. That discounts the UUP (10 seats), who were Remain, but support the referendum result and the minor parties.

  12. codejunky Silver badge

    Re: Well

    @ Rob D.

    "The fact that the EU (negotiators) are stating that a border would be required does not equate to the EU stating that they want a border."

    That is a step closer than a lot of replies I get. A border has 2 sides. If the UK/NI doesnt want a border we dont make one. If the EU/ROI dont want one they dont make one. If instead of desperately clinging to something to negotiate about the EU agrees to effectively no border in Ireland then the problem is solved. The one wanting the border is the one demanding it, holding out for it, unwilling to not have one. It truly is that simple that the EU want a border and so it is their problem.

    "So we change the EU rules to give Portugal a special status that no other country in the world has, and everyone can agree to that, can't they?"

    Actually the EU can. They can choose not to and thats up to them but so be it. There is also the good friday agreement which our lack of desire for a border meets the criteria of the agreement (from my understanding of it) and imposing a border would be problematic. So if the EU wants a border it is the one imposing it and it would be the ROI going along with it who would be violating it (technically). Solutions have been proposed by the UK but the EU want a harder border so nuff said.

    "(Subtitute 'border with Ireland' for 'participate fully in Galileo' to get back on topic.)"

    Very different issues. As the EU's vanity project and technically theirs it is not our problem to build and pay for their toy for them to play with. I dont know if this is their level headed thought that brought this about or their temper tantrum (similar to the TLD tantrum). But I dont really care nor do I want to be represented by such a childish political entity. Hell they are in trade war with the US after pointing out it is protectionism and bad to do!

  13. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Re: Well

    "Are you somehow claiming we dont trade with other countries outside the EU because we dont abide by all the various and conflicting rules for all the various countries? We do not need to apply the importing countries standards to our own country. If that was true then countries would not be able to trade."

    Reading a fair bit on standards over the years, it is my impression that many countries accept EU or US standards because they are quite high, particularly with respect to consumer safety, and because they trust the EU and US to enforce those standards. Since the EU and US are very large markets, people expect manufacturers to do their best to meet them, rather than lose access. At that point, goods can be accepted as 'very probably safe' without investing time and money in checks and testing.

  14. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Re: Well

    "Hang on, are you calling the Irish idiots? As I keep pointing out we dont want a border and the Irish dont but the EU does. So if the EU makes a border you think the Irish are too stupid to realise it is not the UK who can change anything? I give them more credit than that."

    Of course the UK can fix things. All they have to do is align their regulations and standards with the EU, accept the ECJ and similar institutions as the 'final court', remain in the EEA, accept the four freedoms, pay its share for participation in EU projects, accept that logical regulations and policy may prohibit some activities (participation in EU defence fund and security related aspects of Galileo) and maybe one or two other little things I have missed.

    It might be easier to stay in the EU.

    The problem is that the UK is still asking for all the benefits of membership, plus extra privileges that EU members do not have, without the obligations. Until this fantasy goes away, solutions to some problems are unlikely - and no one but the UK can fix the fantasy.

  15. Mephistro Silver badge
    Thumb Up

    Re: Well(@ Hans 1)

    I'd also add to that list of murdered companies the IT ones, as their status as "GDPR compliant" will be abundantly discussed in the next years.

    And a big implied facepalm for whoever helped to make this shit possible, including politicians, big media, social sites, ...

  16. Mephistro Silver badge
    Facepalm

    Re: Well (@Codejunky)

    "The UK doesnt want a border, the EU does, its their problem not ours."

    Guess what happens when those "commie-pinko bureaucrats" in Brussels notice that the costs of maintaining a humongous border with the UK are not covered by the profits made through Commerce with the UK.

    A soft border+hard Brexit would turn most of the UK's economy into smuggling operations, moving any goods into Europe. I don't think the EU will allow it, but even if they do (damn highly improbable thing imo), perhaps you should carefully consider the implications of most of your country's economy consisting of smuggling operations.

    Imagine that instead of the UK it was Spain that had voted to leave the EU. Your country would do exactly what the rest of the EU countries are doing now to the UK and most people that in the Real World voted Brexit would probably be applauding with hands and ears!

    I pray to the FSM that this shit doesn't happen in my country.

  17. Mark 65 Silver badge

    Re: Well

    I suspect the response to the UK telling the EU to come up with a solution to the Irish border problem would be along the lines of "It was your referendum, your decision to leave and your decision to start the clock ticking before you had even the first idea of what you wanted beyond 'Brexit means Brexit.'

    I think you'll find that we could quite easily state the solution is "keep the border open as is" if we felt like it. It's their rules that say that cannot happen, not ours. Therefore they need to come up with a solution, we've already got one.

  18. Mark 65 Silver badge

    Re: Well

    As you voted leave, you're responsible for these folk negotiating for the UK.

    I think you'll find that whichever way you voted you want the best people negotiating. To have twats doing the job will benefit neither remainer nor leaver.

  19. codejunky Silver badge

    Re: Well

    @AC

    "Of course the UK can fix things. All they have to do is align their regulations and standards with the EU"

    So not leave the EU because the EU want an Irish border if we do? Thats pretty stupid. What other grovelling behaviour should we have to the EU? Your comment does prove however that the EU has taken away our sovereignty. Otherwise we would be free to be a sovereign country and the EU might be competent enough to make a trade deal at least over Ireland.

    "The problem is that the UK is still asking for all the benefits of membership, plus extra privileges that EU members do not have, without the obligations"

    Interestingly that is one of the remain arguments, to remain so we dont lose our extra privileges. I do point out they could vote for a party who will rejoin the EU but then we will have to accept the whole project with no opt outs. It doesnt seem popular amongst the remainers, yet they tell us the EU is good to be in.

  20. codejunky Silver badge

    Re: Well (@Codejunky)

    @ Mephistro

    "A soft border+hard Brexit would turn most of the UK's economy into smuggling operations, moving any goods into Europe."

    And what used to happen with the border? Smuggling. Hard to stop too since there isnt a land border but an artificial line. Interestingly since the EU have accepted the UK would have a competitive advantage for leaving I expect Ireland would be very prosperous for having the protectionist subsidy of the EU for being in and the freedom from EU bureaucracy being out. But you are right that the EU cannot have a protectionist bubble with a hole. Again their problem.

  21. Dr. Mouse Silver badge

    Re: Well

    @codejunky

    "Solutions have been proposed by the UK but the EU want a harder border so nuff said."

    The solutions I have seen so far have either been rejected by Hard Brexiteers or Loyalist parties in NI (e.g. NI remaining in CU, moving the border to between NI/RUK) or depend on coming up with some magical new technology/systems in a very short space of time. In short, there have been no realistic solutions put forward. I think we can be pretty sure that there are some clever people involved on all sides trying to come up with a solution, and none have been found (or at least publicised) which would be acceptable to all involved. It will be interesting to see whether any does emerge...

    You also forget that the EU, just as the UK, wants to have control over it's borders. If there is an "open" border between RoI and NI, the EU lose that control (as, incidentally, does the UK). To maintain proper control of the border, they would need a harder border between RoI and the rest of the EU (as they would be dependant on whatever customs, migration controls and standards the UK chose to implement, not those of their own policies).

    We keep arguing round in circles, and we're obviously not going to agree here. I cannot see how the Irish border is not a problem of the UK's making for the UK to solve, and I also can't see how you would disagree. I'm pretty sure the same can be said of you in reverse. None of your arguments have made sense to me, and if mine haven't made sense to you so far then there's little point continuing the argument.

  22. Dr. Mouse Silver badge

    Re: Well

    @codejunky

    Just one final point by way of an example.

    Let us say that Wales wanted to establish a deal with, say, Canada. They wanted people and goods to move freely between Wales and Canada, with no border checks, and relying on "technological solutions" to ensure all standards were met. Canada wanted that, too, but only with Wales not the rest of the UK.

    What do you think the UK government's response would be?

  23. codejunky Silver badge

    Re: Well

    @ Dr. Mouse

    "The solutions I have seen so far have either been rejected by Hard Brexiteers or Loyalist parties in NI"

    Really? Like what? I know the negotiators made a number of suggestions and the EU rejected them then suggest they annex Ireland.

    "or depend on coming up with some magical new technology/systems in a very short space of time."

    Magic technology the EU is already considering implementing elsewhere in the EU.

    "In short, there have been no realistic solutions put forward."

    Since this is the EU's problem that is very disturbing. That would suggest that the EU, who's existence is predicated on being able to establish trade and improve relations in the world, is incapable of its task.

    "We keep arguing round in circles, and we're obviously not going to agree here. I cannot see how the Irish border is not a problem of the UK's making for the UK to solve, and I also can't see how you would disagree."

    You do seem to have identified the problem. How can the EU's border control be the UK's problem? Just as the EU has no say over UK controlled borders once we leave. So if our side decide no border that is it, our side implements no border. That doesnt dictate what the EU does but their border is their problem.

    Interestingly apparently the smart people on both sides cant agree on what a hard border is-

    https://briefingsforbrexit.com/when-is-a-hard-border-not-a-hard-border/

  24. Dr. Mouse Silver badge

    Re: Well

    How can the EU's border control be the UK's problem?

    We are asking them to create an exception to their rules which doesn't exist anywhere else, and providing no realistic way in which it could be implemented while still keeping control of their own borders, migration, standards etc, and not discriminating against the rest of their population (part of the treaties and rules in place). Do you really think that the other 26 countries (who all have to agree) would be happy with and accept that one particular country in the group gets to put special rules in place which disadvantage their own citizens?

    I can say "I want a car which produces 300BHP, does 100mpg, and costs £10,000 new. The car dealer down the road wants one to sell to me, too." Is it the manufacturer's problem to try to build one? Is the manufacturer being difficult or unfair when he tells me it's impossible?

  25. codejunky Silver badge

    Re: Well

    @ Dr. Mouse

    "We are asking them to create an exception to their rules which doesn't exist anywhere else"

    So the EU is incapable of trade deals? Unable to implement technology already in existence? Unable to continue with its usual ignoring of smuggling?-

    "Of course, there is smuggling at present, since excise duties differ between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. Since the existing smuggling has not necessitated customs infrastructure, a future with free-trade would also not need to do so."- https://briefingsforbrexit.com/where-are-we-on-the-irish-border/

    "Do you really think that the other 26 countries (who all have to agree) would be happy with and accept that one particular country in the group gets to put special rules in place which disadvantage their own citizens?"

    That must be the first time you have acknowledged (at least to my memory) that brexit is an advantage. And i would agree that Ireland in total would benefit from the protectionism and subsidy of the EU and the freedom from EU regulation of being out.

  26. Dr. Mouse Silver badge

    Re: Well

    So the EU is incapable of trade deals?

    Of course not. However, they take years to agree and it's what we are currently working towards. We are also asking for a form of freedom of movement between RoI and NI, but not the rest of Europe. That's a lot more than a trade deal.

    "Do you really think that the other 26 countries (who all have to agree) would be happy with and accept that one particular country in the group gets to put special rules in place which disadvantage their own citizens?"

    That must be the first time you have acknowledged (at least to my memory) that brexit is an advantage.

    No, actually I didn't. I was talking of the other 26 vs RoI. If RoI has a different deal to the rest of Europe, including free movement to the UK and free trade with the UK, how happy are the other 26 nations in the EU going to be about that discrimination against their companies and their citizens? Why should Irish citizens get a better deal, and Irish companies be able to undercut their prices?

    The trading block trades and negotiates as a block. What is available to one is available to all. So, if we want free trade and free movement with Ireland while it remains a member of the EU, we would have to accept the same terms with the rest of the EU (unless they make a very big, very public exception to their rules AND convince all of the other 26 nations within the block to agree).

    Remember, though, that the EU has already offered a solution to the Irish border problem which we can do while respecting the outcome of the referendum: Remain a member of the EEA/EFTA/Customs Union. We would still leave the EU, as stated on the ballot, but the Irish border problem would be solved (as would the matter of a free trade agreement, rights of EU nationals in the UK, rights of UK nationals in the EU, and pretty much every other stumbling block in the negotiations). That "we" reject the only solution available within the existing framework make's it our problem to find an solution acceptable to the 27 other nations in this negotiation.

  27. codejunky Silver badge

    Re: Well

    @ Dr. Mouse

    "However, they take years to agree and it's what we are currently working towards. We are also asking for a form of freedom of movement between RoI and NI, but not the rest of Europe. That's a lot more than a trade deal."

    Not really. The EU had the middle east move through it on their way to Germany which was an actual crisis and increased pressure on other crisis in the process. An FTA with a country that already meets standards and requirements should be so simple the EU has nothing but a poor excuse not to be able to solve it quickly. As for a form of freedom of movement, they already have it and apparently smuggle already because of duties which the EU feels no need to tackle.

    "If RoI has a different deal to the rest of Europe, including free movement to the UK and free trade with the UK, how happy are the other 26 nations in the EU going to be about that discrimination against their companies and their citizens? Why should Irish citizens get a better deal, and Irish companies be able to undercut their prices?"

    That is an acknowledgement of the advantage of brexit. Its a better deal because they can deal with the UK free of the EU.

    "So, if we want free trade and free movement with Ireland while it remains a member of the EU, we would have to accept the same terms with the rest of the EU"

    Ok. Is anyone having any problem with that? N Ireland being in the UK but an FTA allowing both parts of Ireland to cooperate as they do now. Other members being able to travel to ROI and play hopscotch with the same border. The usual enforcements being made against criminals with intelligence of their actions but generally letting people live their lives.

    "Remember, though, that the EU has already offered a solution to the Irish border problem which we can do while respecting the outcome of the referendum: Remain a member of the EEA/EFTA/Customs Union."

    Well if the offers are so generous then the ROI can leave the EU and this isnt a problem. The UK is (will be on brexit) sovereign, the ROI less so (EU).

    "That "we" reject the only solution available within the existing framework make's it our problem to find an solution acceptable to the 27 other nations in this negotiation."

    Ha, balls and twaddle. As proven by my mirrored proposal that the ROI can leave the EU. So obviously not the only solution. More have been tabled, rejected by the EU and shockingly now back on the table now the EU is interested in solving it. There are options beyond the EU annexing Ireland or trapping the UK in the EU (in whatever name). The EU may not like them but they want a border, it is their problem not ours. We have already decided no border on our side.

  28. Dr. Mouse Silver badge

    Re: Well

    It's obvious that we aren't going to agree, so I will just leave one final comment then stop looking back here:

    If we are in the EU, there is no problem because there is effectively no border.

    If we were both outside the EU, then there would be no problem because Ireland would be free to strike it's own deals.

    However, Ireland wants to remain a member of the EU and, in doing so, accepts that such deals are handled by the EU and all members jointly. We want to leave the EU, and must accept that (through rules which we helped create) such deals are handled by the EU.

    With Ireland in the EU, it is likely that it will be a matter of having the same border and trade arrangements between NI and RoI as exists between UK and the rest of the EU. How those border arrangements look will be a result of the trade negotiations.

  29. Dr_N Silver badge

    Re: Well

    Codemonkey>> Not really. The EU had the middle east move through it on their way to Germany which was an actual crisis and increased pressure on other crisis in the process.

    LOL Give it a rest Captain Mainwaring.

  30. codejunky Silver badge
    Trollface

    Re: Well

    @ Dr_N

    "LOL Give it a rest Captain Mainwaring."

    My pet troll is back. Please amuse us with your version of what happened if you so have anything of value to contribute.

  31. Dr_N Silver badge
    Stop

    Re: Well

    Don't Panic codejunky. Brexit means:no more brown folk.*

    You are safe now. No need to keep spreading your disinformation.

    For you the war against human decency is over. You won it. Rest easy son.

    *Not really!

  32. codejunky Silver badge

    Re: Well

    @ Dr_N

    "Don't Panic codejunky. Brexit means:no more brown folk."

    I seriously hope you are wrong and dont get your version of brexit or I will lose a few friends. Especially if it includes removing people from all over the world. I assume you are trying to claim that the complete and recognised screw up Merkel made cannot be commented on without being racist? I hoped such SJW stupidity had gone the way of Blairs/Browns government.

    Once again we can discuss borders as a sensible subject. Paying little heed to those who cannot grasp the subject

  33. John Smith 19 Gold badge
    FAIL

    If not doing something because it was "inconvenient" was the ciriteria for Brexit..

    The UK would not be bothering to leave in the first place.

    Since it's going to be a ballsachingly massive PITA.

    So I think Davies pinning his faith on applying that argument to the EU downgrading UK access to "Guest" login status was wishful thinking at best.

    Bit like every other part of the UK's Brexit "Negotiations"

    What's the UK going to do? Threaten to Nuke Brussels?

    Really?

  34. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Re: If not doing something because it was "inconvenient" was the ciriteria for Brexit..

    What's the UK going to do? Threaten to Nuke Brussels?

    Why would we want to? Galileo was a vanity project designed primarily to feather French pockets, and given that the EU (and UK) military are so weak there's no military justification. Most of the UK's military applications will run off GPS anyway because of the weapons being US made. The very selective uses for civilian precision location don't currently merit the cost and complexity of Galileo.

  35. Vimes

    Re: If not doing something because it was "inconvenient" was the ciriteria for Brexit..

    Which begs the question: why bother making such a song and dance about being denied access in the first place?

  36. Poncey McPonceface
    FAIL

    Re: If not doing something because it was "inconvenient" was the ciriteria for Brexit..

    something does not compute cowardly anon:

    Assuming Brits voted for Brexit primarily to take their destiny into their own hands you can't with one and the same breath decry the EU's desire to be independent of the US when it comes to a vital tech like global navigation systems. More simply put: if Brexit is a matter of sovereignty then so is Galileo – to say that it is not is wilfully misleading.

    And then you saying that sure it's all grand because the Brits can piggyback on the US system is dumb because that means moving from being an equal partner to a subordinate one. Why Brits should be happier living under Uncle Sam's shadow rather than standing shoulder-to-shoulder with their European neighbour is beyond me. As we have recently had confirmed the EU are a far more reliable political entity than the US.

  37. Voland's right hand Silver badge

    Re: If not doing something because it was "inconvenient" was the ciriteria for Brexit..

    Which begs the question: why bother making such a song and dance about being denied access in the first place?

    Because it is the harbinger of things to come. One of the biggest arguments May and Davis are waving about is that if Eu does not give UK what it wants it will suffer from reduced security cooperation.

    Well this is the clearest demonstration on where can UK stuff its security cooperation and exactly how this house of cards will unfold from now on.

  38. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

    Re: If not doing something because it was "inconvenient" was the ciriteria for Brexit..

    "As we have recently had confirmed the EU are a far more reliable political entity than the US."

    And thanks to these nuppits we in the UK have proved we aren't which is going to serve Fox & co really, really well when they try to negotiate all these wonderful trade deals.

  39. Vimes

    Re: If not doing something because it was "inconvenient" [...] @Doctor Syntax

    What gets me is the continued failure of our politicians to grasp the idea that people on the continent can quite easily read our papers too and can see how the likes of Johnson, Gove, Fox and Davis play to the gallery at home just so they can jump through the tabloid hoops.

    Yet somehow our MPs are still continually surprised by the angry reaction of the EU when it comes to making promises in Brussels only to break them shortly afterwards just to keep the likes of Paul Dacre happy.

  40. Vimes

    Re: If not doing something because it was "inconvenient" [...] @Voland's right hand

    One of my favourite Brexit tweets:

    https://twitter.com/JohnnyPixels/status/779231997080309760

  41. NerryTutkins

    Re: If not doing something because it was "inconvenient" was the ciriteria for Brexit..

    It's quite amazing that the people who go on about 'sovereignty' and 'taking back control' seem to have no problem being a member of NATO, where the Supreme Commander in Europe is always an American as a matter of policy.

    So handing over command of our own armed forces and the defence of our homeland to a foreigner is absolutely fine. But sitting around a table with the French and Germans to agree common rules on hairdryers is a humiliating subjugation of our once great nation from which economic ruin is a worthwhile price to escape from.

  42. handleoclast Silver badge

    Re: If not doing something because it was "inconvenient" was the ciriteria for Brexit..

    Which begs the question: why bother making such a song and dance about being denied access in the first place?

    Here's the thing you apparently do not yet understand about politicians: there's a reason they do something and then there's the bullshit they feed you as an explanation of why they're doing it.

    Being denied access to military-grade positioning is what they're telling you. The real reason is that the UK will no longer get juicy contracts to work on the thing. It turns out that if they tell you (and more importantly, the Europeans) that they're greedy fucks too stupid to realize the consequence of their actions and please give us special treatment to which we're not entitled then they'll get laughed at (and maybe even voted out come the next elections). They figured if they fobbed it off as a military thing (we have bigger and better weapons so you need to give us access so we can defend you) that might give them a foot in the door (BTW, we'll only defend you if we also get those juicy Galileo contracts).

    I have no great love of the EU. It is, at its heart, an unelected civil-servant-ocracy (there's probably a word for that but I don't know it), so on principle I dislike it. It comes out with some good legislation and some bloody stupid legislation (harmonizing electrical supply voltages and electrical equipment to operate at that nominal harmonized voltage was fucking stupid).

    However, having been a part of it for 45 years we are going to be worse off by leaving than by staying in (Galileo is the tip of a fucking big iceberg). This isn't going to end well. But I'm not very worried by it because I reckon I'll be dead before it gets really bad (I don't think it will take a long time to get really bad, that estimate is down to my life-expectancy).

  43. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

    Re: If not doing something because it was "inconvenient" [...] @Voland's right hand

    "https://twitter.com/JohnnyPixels/status/779231997080309760"

    Nice one but a bit optimistic about the UK hand. I think it's just the Fool.

  44. This post has been deleted by its author

  45. Alan Brown Silver badge

    Re: If not doing something because it was "inconvenient" was the ciriteria for Brexit..

    "why bother making such a song and dance about being denied access in the first place?"

    For the same reason that tthe EU is collectively heaving a sigh of relief that Britain's no longer involved: We can't go leaking sensitive shit to the USA anymore and as such our usefulness is majorly limited.

    What? You thought the special relationship was because they liked us? You should look up Thomas Jefferson's speech where he promised to destroy the UK as an economic power - something the USA effectively did with lend-lease as the coup-de-grace.

    The EU stopped thinking about the USA as a close ally a while back. Threatening to blow Gallileo satellites out of orbit if they didn't shut down when the US demanded it underscored that point, as did the screaming temper tantrums that forced China out of the consortium and got the UK to force through the "No non-EU members" rule as a proxy troll to keep them out.

    If you think those premature maser failures weren't industrial sabotage then you should think again.

  46. Alan Brown Silver badge

    Re: If not doing something because it was "inconvenient" was the ciriteria for Brexit..

    "The real reason is that the UK will no longer get juicy contracts to work on the thing. "

    Yup and that's due to rules that the UK rammed through on behalf of the USA to keep China out of Gallileo.

    You're right about Gallileo contracts being the tip of the iceberg. A _LOT_ of contracts have been ripped up and that started with any potential/under negotiation ones being ripped up the morning after the referendum.

    karma is such a bitch.

  47. werdsmith Silver badge

    Re: If not doing something because it was "inconvenient" was the ciriteria for Brexit..

    On Brexit day the UK can decommission their Galileo ground stations in UK territories unilaterally, after all if the EU doesn't want us to be a part of it, then we withdraw. And since we have put a lot of money into it and now they won't let us use it, a full refund (with interest) would be well in order.

    And the EU can set up new ground stations relatively easily - they will be happy and eager to get a greater share of the work. There will be no full refund because the contractors will be paid for the work done, according to the contracts signed.

  48. Hans 1 Silver badge
    Coffee/keyboard

    Re: If not doing something because it was "inconvenient" was the ciriteria for Brexit..

    a full refund (with interest) would be well in order.

    Hm, right!

  49. Nick Porter

    Re: If not doing something because it was "inconvenient" was the ciriteria for Brexit..

    There are 38 other ground stations that are not on UK territories and they are highly redundant. Additionally, the ground stations in the Falklands and Ascension are not 'ours', they are owned and operated by GSA and the UK is still enough of a rules-based country that our government can't shut down private enterprises without having a legal case to do so. "They won't let us play, it's not fair!" doesn't usually go down very well with a High Court judge.

  50. Roland6 Silver badge

    Re: If not doing something because it was "inconvenient" was the ciriteria for Brexit..

    @Hans 1 Re: a full refund (with interest) would be well in order. Hm, right!

    Absolutely! :)

    You are overlooking human nature, whilst it wasn't that long ago that hard-Brexiteers were refusing to pay the "divorce bill" because "we owe the EU nothing" and should "just walk away", because they saw no value in the UK-EU relationship. However, now the 'junk' is being sorted, they are beginning to realise that the 'junk' has value and so now are loudly demanding their share...

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