Re: Of all places
you have no idea so shut the fu@@ up
A woman armed with a handgun shot three people at the headquarters of YouTube today, police say. She was later found dead seemingly after turning the gun on herself. The shooting happened just before 1pm Pacific Time at the video-sharing giant's offices in San Bruno, California, the city's cops confirmed to El Reg. San …
you have no idea so shut the fu@@ up
"Here in Canada you cannot just walk in and buy an assault gun over the counter"
I don't know any place you can buy an assault gun over the counter, at least not without totally destroying the counter. The lightest one I can think of ran about 10 tons, and most ran 20+ tons.
When you are talking about a technical subject, ignorance of accurate terminology inevitably leads to doubt about the level of understanding involved.
Confusing an AR15 with an assault gun is like confusing a bicycle with an 18-wheeler.
An AR15 isn't really an assault anything, and in some countries it is still prohibited, not that that would do anything useful.
> When you remove Oakland, Detroit, Atlanta, Baltimore and Chicago from the equation, the USA goes from 138th safest place in the world to 3rd safest, behind Iceland and Switzerland.
"Because statistics show owning a gun makes you MORE likely to die from gun violence!"
Yet another person without a clue about how to use statistics.
This is very annoying to those of us who actually have a clue about how to understand them. I would really, really like to make an understanding statistics a mandatory requirement for any university degree.
Those 'statistics' are an argument from correlation in a completely uncontrolled situation. Correlation is slippery enough in an experimental setting, let alone the bizarre circumstances around statistics gathered across a myriad of different situations.
Classic example? People who quite smoking are more likely to die within a year or two than smokers. Clearly not smoking can be lethal. If you want to stay safe, keep puffing away!
This claim is as valid as yours.
Both are almost certainly wrong.
The fact that I can show a much higher correlation between stork population and births in a properly chosen city than appears in the data you are quoting does not mean that storks bring babies.
The people most likely to have guns are those that feel that they need them. Drug dealers, gang members, people living in high violent crime areas, etc. Curiously, such people also tend to die from gun violence more often than people living quietly legal lives in quietly peaceful areas... such people are less likely to feel a need to own guns.
The 'high probability gun owner' population is not the same as the 'low probability gun owner' population. Confounding variables are baked in to the selection process for the statistical analysis.
I have never lived in a house without firearms, nor have many of my friends. The number of them killed by guns? Zero. The number wounded? Zero. The number ever shot at? Zero. The number involved in gangs? Zero. Violent crime? Zero. Are we seeing a pattern here?
One of my co-workers has sufficient firearms to equip a platoon... yet he has never shown any tendency to shoot anyone, or to be shot at, except maybe one time sparked by nervous police who were spooked by the firearms database when called by a neighbour reporting his daughter shouting at her boyfriend on the front lawn.
Given the number of times nervous cops shoot people at the wrong address due to firearms registration, the safest thing would be to block real time access to such databases by police. Yes, there is more to this, but it would make police safer too. Think about it and you will figure out why... enough typing.
"explosives? Knives? Acid? Automobiles? Semi-trucks?
Probably they should all be outlawed."
And electricity. And fire, definitely fire. And...
"That's a broadly similar regime to the UK. If you do not have a criminal record, it is not difficult to get an FAC in the UK."
An FAC good for what?
Maybe you can get a shotgun, or a bolt action rifle, but more interesting firearms are difficult or impossible to get.
Even the British Olympic pistol team can't practice in Britain!
They have to go to another country to shoot at paper targets, yet I will wager that not one of them is likely to shoot anyone.
"If you remove guns, you WILL reduce deaths, but will still have plenty of murders if you dont fix the problems that society has."
Maybe, or maybe you will just motivate them to look for something more effective.
"Yes, but as you say, the tools limit the awfulness of the outcomes. Someone with a knife may injure or kill a few if they're really determined, but nowhere near as many as they would with an automatic military weapon"
AFAIK, none or almost none of the incidents in question involved automatic military weapons.
This is a confusion deliberately encouraged by gun control advocates, who seem to have no problem lying about important policy issues.
When I said, "Of all places" I didn't mean California. I meant a big ass corporation headquarters building like Youtube has. Do they have no security to stop people who don't belong there from walking in and blasting away? I'm not sure why I mentioned Cali's strict gun laws, probably a programmed response or something.
To be clear, I haven't owned a firearm in about 20 years, and have served honorably in the US Military. I don't own one to defend myself, because (here it comes) I have faith. Should I be afraid of someone killing me and sending me to heaven? Nah. And if there's no heaven and I just cease to exist, once I'm dead I won't be around to care. So there really isn't anything to fear. Sorry, the whiskey is talking, I better press submit quick!
"Yes. As The Onion has said: "‘No Way To Prevent This,’ Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens""
Nonsense. The nearest country to the US where this regularly happens is about zero inches away from the US.... and it is far from the only one.
Mexico has very strict gun laws, with limits on guns, ammunition, calibers, and types.
There is only one gun store in the country, run by the military. The wait to get one can be months, maybe years.
Importation of guns and ammunition is strictly controlled, with severe penalties for violation. Inadvertently importing a single round can land you in prison for five years.
The murder rate in Mexico> 22.7 per 100,000.
In the US> 4,88 per 100,000.
"No, Australia banned semi-auto rifles entirely."
But it allowed licences for normal firearms, so yes. All firearms are potentially deadly. Its just that assault rifles have no legitimate civilIan use.
Semi-automatic rifles are normal firearms.
With a very few exceptions like .50 calibre sniper rifles, military rifles are NOT semi-automatic.
While assault rifles do have legitimate civilian uses, they are very very rare, usually unavailable, and do not figure in the sorts of shootings under discussion.
It would be nice if someone would explain how requiring those who have firearms to store them safely and unloaded, and to store the ammunition separately, is going to prevent a spree killing. What prevents an unhinged individual from unstoring the gun and its ammunition, bringing them together, and doing a large scale shooting?
It appears there may be something else going on here for which these sensible rules do not account.
Every day I go into the family room and jump 20 times while turning around, in order to keep the rampaging elephants away. I have seen no rampaging elephants since I started that, and take that as proof of the ceremony's effectiveness.
"something like an AR-15 (insert over-powered gun of choice instead)."
The AR-15 and similar rifles are not allowed for deer hunting in many states, and the reason is that they are not sufficiently powerful.
Interesting link, so thanks for posting it.
I'm genuinely suprised to find the murder rate in the USA only ranks it as 110th highest in the world. Perhaps then, it doesn't have the problem its perceived as having, as its in the bottom half of the world for murder rate, yet has one of the highest rates of gun ownership.
"If you have a basic license, you can get an AR15 "style" weapon."
What exactly do you mean by that?
The AR-15 is adaptable into pretty much any format, and it's very obvious that in certain configurations it is indeed not a MSSA.
But most people consider a "AR-15 style" to have some distinctive features, such as a pistol grip or a telescopic stock. Either of which will make it a MSSA. Even putting a suppressor on a semi-auto will make it a MSSA, although in practice this is often ignored (depending how much you've pissed of the inspecting officer).
So if the grip does not project lower than the trigger guard, and there is no thumb hole, and your stock is fixed, and you only have 7 round capacity magazines, and no suppressor then you don't really have a "AR-15 style" gun, you have a "hunting rifle" style gun.
But if you've managed to purchase a pistol gripped semi auto on a cat A licence, please let us and your local plod know, since they will want to have words with you and the dealer.
As I said before, never known anyone in NZ who owned a MSSA or had a pistol gripped semi-auto that didn't have a cat E licence.
"Oddly, banning guns demonstrably fails to prevent suicides."
Eh, banning pistols does make it harder to commit suicide. Whilst you can deliberately shoot yourself with a long gun, it's a wee bit more fiddly.
While you are broadly correct that roughly two thirds of firearm homicides are self inflicted, it's not always a case of suicide. Those remaining third are not always murder either, since murder is a specific criminal charge depending upon intent, wheras homicide is the generic term for "a human done it".
So a three year old fatally shooting their mother is a homicide, it's not murder. Fatally shooting someone attempting to rape you is also homicide, but may well be legally self defense.
It's one of the reasons you'll see a marked difference between murder rates and homicide rates, since one is based of convictions of perpetrator, the other is based on the victims. So it's possible to have a one to many relationship either way, one person killed by a group may result in several convictions for murder, or a single person committing multiple murders.
Countries with a problem with suicide (such as NZ) do ban or restrict things in order to make it harder. You're not supposed to be able to buy a fatal dose of paracetamol in a single packet there, so you can't buy a pack of 50. Exactly how effective that is is left as an exercise for the reader...
And when does it become 'mass' murder?
The FBI definition is here about 20% down the page as contrasted against the definition of serial murder. To save you the time, it states:
"Generally, mass murder was described as a number of murders (four or more) occurring during the same incident, with no distinctive time period between the murders."
"We should probably outlaw knives. "
The UK Parliament posts PMQ's to YouTube, and I saw a week or two ago that both the Government and the Opposition in Commons are considering putting restrictions on knives.
"make open carry illegal and concealed carry highly restricted"
Not "make open carry mandatory, with concealed carry having a high threshold for the permit"?
"The US constitution has been amended dozens of times before so no reason why that couldnt (sic) happen."
There is: any amendment requires a 2/3 majority in both houses, followed by ratification of 3/4 of the state legislatures (i.e. 38 states, currently). Those conditions would apply even if you wanted to amend the amending formula, which effort would likely meet with as much opposition as would an attempt to repeal -- or even amend -- the 2nd (e.g. change "shall" to "may"). The second amendment won't ever be repealed. It won't ever be amended. Forget that avenue entirely. It's a lost cause. What you're left with is reason. Apply that. But don't get all shirty if you can't convince individuals to give up their guns. And don't manipulate people with emotion and think-like-the-children. They're on to that tactic.
@ Allen George
For those interestedin exactly what you can and can't own in NZ and under what conditions, the NZ police site is at :
The list on the site is out of date, but the excel spreadsheet is fairly up to date.
There are roughly 140 AR-15 rifles listed (and a pistol designated AR15). Of those, there are 2 models that are banned, 2 that require a C licence (performance, one of those is a full auto) and three that can be used with an A class (they conveniently have A class in their description), with the remainder requiring an E class licence.
All the models that I'd recognise as an AR-15 (Colt, Armalite, Bushmaster etc) are E catagory.
What is odd (to me) is that I can't find any images of those A-cat weapons that don't consist of them having a collapsible stock and a pistol grip. Either of which make them a MSSA, as per here:
Wiki is pretty good here, since it appears to just be straight copy pasta. Despite what certain AC posters might want you to believe....
"MSSA describes a self-loading rifle or shotgun with one or more of the following features:
- Folding or telescopic butt
- Magazine that holds, or is detachable and has the appearance of holding, more than 15 cartridges for .22 rimfire
- Magazine that holds more than 7 cartridges, or is detachable and has the appearance of holding more than 10 cartridges for other than .22 rimfire
- Bayonet lug
- Pistol grip as defined by Order in Council
- Flash suppressor."
Self loading = semi auto. Although a rifle that loaded it's own magazine would be pretty sweet :)
"You're not supposed to be able to buy a fatal dose of paracetamol in a single packet there, so you can't buy a pack of 50. Exactly how effective that is is left as an exercise for the reader..."
Not very, I would venture.
I take it paracetamol is some sort of local trade name for acetaminophen?
I wouldn't suggest acetaminophen for suicide. A friend of mine was an EMT, and had one call where they revived a girl who had taken a fatal dose of acetaminophen. The girl thanked them and said she had changed her mind. My friend couldn't tell her that she should expect to be dead in a couple of weeks from liver failure... left that to the hospital.
"...Use your emotions man!..."
Argh!! Anger!! Fury!! (better? ;-) )
I remember once coming upon a severe car crash. I got on the phone to 911 (local emergency number), calmly described the location, and the circumstances of the crash, and began controlling the scene so that there weren't any secondary accidents that might hurt me or the other people who had also stopped to help. When the CHP showed up and the fire department, they took a statement and took over scene control. Right before I was cleared to leave by the officer, I received a comment "You're pretty calm for having just seen all that" - I replied, "Would it have helped if I freaked out?"
If I were to believe in wishes, my only one would be that people stopped and thought a bit before running around screaming and flailing. We humans can be pretty smart if we give ourselves a chance to use our brains...
">>...Can one "learn empathy"?
>I've always thought empathy was a capacity one either has or lacks. Sociopaths can learn to fake it, but learn it?..."
I also read a study that showed that having Sociopaths around is good for critical/difficult decision making, especially in a crisis requiring triage. If everyone "understood and shared the feelings of" everyone else, we could not ever pass a law that "negatively affects" someone else... Like everything else in life, empathy and sociopathy is good in moderation - logic and reason have to be allowed entry into a discussion between multiple people groups of people and the realization that for the greater good some bad must be allowed to exist/occur.
I'd like to see logic and ethics back in the required course classes for primary and degree diplomas... I feel the absence of that might have had a negative effect on our most recent generations.
"Yes violent crime goes through the roof when you remove the Equalizer. Its a fact."
No thats a fictional character. Lots of studies - including in the US - show that when you remove guns from circulation violent crime drops as does the death rate due to violent crime. Of course you still need an efficient armed police option to deal with the now reduced number of criminals with guns, which seems to work just fine in every other industrialised country on the planet.
"The NRA is 5+millinon people that pay dues, support safe use and laws - not companies"
Since when have the NRA ever supported any safety related or any other restrictive gun law? They exist to support and are controlled by the gun industry.
There was a US study recently that showed that gun related death rates drop during large NRA conferences. Which tends imply (not surprisingly) that they are a bunch of gung-ho red necks who are responsible for many gun related deaths!
"gun crimes went down, due to less guns - yep. Violent crime did not, and rapes went up"
Due to fewer guns I think you mean. And the increase in rape was due largely to the increase in immigration at that time. No Australian women are asking for guns to protect against rape. The overwhelming majority of gun owners were always men anyway.
There was a US study recently that showed that gun related death rates drop during large NRA conferences.
That study doesn't support your totalitarian agenda, AC:
Nationally, there was a 20 percent reduction in firearm injuries during the convention.
In contrast, gun-related crime did not decrease during the conventions.
Nationally, the rate of firearm injury dropped from 1.5 per 100,000 on the dates adjacent to the convention to 1.2 per 100,000 during the convention itself. And in the state where the convention was held, the injury rate went from 1.9 down to 0.7 per 100,000.
A few mostly minor injuries are no excuse to diminish one of Americans' most fundamental rights - a right that citizens of other countries are really starting to wish they had.
I hope nobody has got hurt.
Video, or it didn’t happen.
Live report on YouTube:
Unlike schoolchildren, they chose to be there.
I guess Alphabet has reached 'M' for murder, I just hope there's no crowing over this.
huh odd how you didn't mention female wearing headscarf. almost as if you were afraid of providing description.
also. no fatalities as of this time. odd how that wasn't in article either.
Details are always sketchy early on. El Reg has to go by stricter libel laws in the UK I assume so they won't be your breaking news source not mention that is not their MO.
local LEO stated this pretty much same time this article was written, and yet no updates to this article.
as of 20 minutes ago ro so luckily no fatalities still.
>female wearing headscarf
So it was a terrorist attack then?
"as of 20 minutes ago ro so luckily no fatalities still."
News in UK says multiple casualties, at least one dead so far.
So far, the only thing that is official is that the suspected shooter is a woman, and appears to have killed herself. That is the grand total information that has been reported about her, and nothing else.
/yup. the shooter is dead.
"female wearing headscarf
So it was a terrorist attack then"
If that's all we have to go on... It could be my nan.
"huh odd how you didn't mention female wearing headscarf. almost as if you were afraid of providing description."
We've been providing updates throughout the afternoon as soon as we were able to confirm them, rather than spread rumor and gossip. We've included details of the suspected shooter.
"also. no fatalities as of this time. odd how that wasn't in article either."
One fatality: the gunwoman. And other injuries were reported accurately.
It's the 21st century, we should be, err, humbled to see that we have achieved equal-opportunity gun-mass-shooting perpetrators. We men were starting to look like the bad ones, so it's, err, terrifyingly relieving to have a woman join the league of crazy-people-who-should-not-have-been-allowed-to-buy-guns!
Animal rights activist too.
The labels keep on coming.
Wait, animal rights activists... killing people?! Slightly ironic, no?
It's reassuring to learn that these days people are surprised by violent animal rights activism.
Some of the commentariat are old enough to remember when native born UK women disliked going out without headwear, usually silk scarves. And of course, hats at church (or scarves) on Sunday. PP
"Wait, animal rights activists... killing people?! Slightly ironic, no?"
Maybe not, in their mind.
I've known animal rights activists (debated with them for years) who were hoping for a pandemic flu to wipe out humans so we would stop bothering the animals.
It is all over the local news here. Yes, every local channel that has a news organization (at least 5) has it on the air. Lots of cop cars visible in the coverage.
More at 6 & 11 pm (as they say).
Then I bump up one channel and get Jerry Springer. What a contrast.
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