back to article It's true, the START MENU is coming BACK to Windows 8, hiss sources

Microsoft's forthcoming wave of Windows updates will streamline the OS and will even see the return of the much-missed Start menu, according to new reports. Rumors that Redmond is planning a new round of updates to the various forms of its OS first surfaced last week, with ZDNet's Mary Jo Foley reporting that Microsoft will …

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                    1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

                      Re: Missing the woods for the trees

                      Empathy and emotion are emergent properties of the chemical reactions that make us. They aren't magic.

                      What they are however, is individual. That you experience one set of chemical reactions in response to a particular stimulus doesn't mean that someone else does. Thus saying "my emotions are the reason that my argument is valid" is both absurd and pointless. That response cuts both ways; the emotions of the opposing part logically would hold the same validity and thus when and where opposite they cancel eachother out.

                      This is why the emotion of the debating parties is irrelevant. The only way that emotions can be used to validate an argument is by saying that the emotions of one party are somehow more valuable than those of another. Which is perilously close to the same "dehumanising" concept you so casually threw around. Where's the line between "my argument is valid because my emotions have greater value than yours" and "you shouldn't vote because you're black and I'm white?"

                      All sorts of animals have emotions. Virtually all mammals, most fish...hell my lizards have very clearly observable moods. There's nothing special about emotions.

                      What does, however, set truly sentient, sapient beings apart from lesser creatures is logic. The capability for rational and predictive thought is rare. We only know of a handful of non-human animals that posses it, and that's not for lack of searching.

                      Thus in an argument attempting to establish fundamental ethics upon which to build a moral code - and ultimately laws - emotion of the arguing parties simply has no place. By the same rational belief/faith/religion have no place in these arguments either. Why is your belief/faith/religion to be taken as more important than mine? What the hell makes you so special?

                      Far more critically, why should your personal belief/faith/religion be imposed on those who don't share it? Like the emotions of the arguing parties, belief, faith and religion can't be entered into argument unless you posit superiority of one side. If you do that, you are throwing the entire concept of a society in which all individuals are equal under the law right out the window.

                      And like my ancestors, I will fight a fucking war to defend that concept. I will die, if I must.

                      That leaves logic, scientific evidence and reasoned discussion. So far, I haven't seen those used to validate the right-to-life belief.

            1. This post has been deleted by its author

          1. gazthejourno (Written by Reg staff)

            MOD NOTE

            Stop spam-reporting Trevor just because you disagree with him. Prolific offenders will find themselves on the naughty step.

            1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

              Re: MOD NOTE

              CEILING CAT IS WATCHING YOU ANGST

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: MOD NOTE

                Upvote for the best post so far in this entire thread. :)

                On a side note, this must be one of the quickest rising comment section of any published article on the reg....

            2. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: MOD NOTE

              You may want to speak with the person reporting the abuse before making a generalisation about why they are reporting abuse.

              You have a user quite happily telling other users that because they posted an opinion about a bit of consumer software that they are no better than someone who tries to prevent a woman from having a termination in quite a graphical way. This user has gone through a termination with their then partner, this user was there when the GPs were telling us why they didn't want to approve our request for a termination like their opinion was more important than ours, I was there when they put my wife on a maternity ward filled with people about to give birth while they cancelled, and recancelled her termination. I have first hand experience of being in a situation where someone was trying to remove a woman's right to chose what she does with her body.

              The fact that someone could compare what we went through, the hardest and most upsetting decision we ever made and had to live with to someone saying a menu button on a consumer piece of software isn't a priority is sickening and deeply upsetting. It doesn't matter whether I was even the person the post was directed at, I should not have to see that on a website discussing technology.

              1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

                Re: MOD NOTE

                And oddly enough, you'll find me receptive to viewpoint. I apologize if I have offended you.

                That said, your journey was your own. your pains and trials - however real and emotionally scarring - won't mean the same to others, just as things that upset me won't even phase you.

                I have an anxiety disorder; one whose details I won't go into, as there are certainly unscrupulous commenters who would love nothing more than to use my triggers against me. I see comments all the time that I find particularly upsetting which others probably wouldn't. Should I demand they be censored?

                You may not like that I, personally, view any purposeful restriction of choice as both immoral and unethical. It is, however, a very strongly held belief, and one I feel falls right smack in the middle of the kinds of things that the concept "freedom of speech" was designed to protect: your right to air your personal view on morality, ethics and their interplay in society.

                Is the choice itself remotely equal? Hell no. Choosing to buy an operating system you hate versus sticking with one you love is nowhere near as emotionally scarring as having to go through the choice of an abortion. I don't hold the two equivalent in any way.

                I do - and did - acknowledge that there is a grand difference in degree of douchiness between restricting a woman's right choose and telling people what they can and can't buy. Misogyny - along with gods only know what other sterotypes that you had to deal with locally - make dealing with the consequences of the right to choose difficult, if not hellish. That's a whole other layer of douchiness heaped on top of the basic douchiness of purposefully setting out to remove someone's right to choose.

                I'm sorry that I offended you; such was not my intent. I do, however, believe the debate and discussion is itself important. There is a purposefully massive discrepancy between the personal and emotional magnitude of two examples of someone denying another choice. Yet the act of purposefully denying another choice is no less wrong at the less emotional end of the scale than at it's peak.

              2. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

                Re: MOD NOTE

                I'd also like to add that had you simply said to me "Trevor, I think that you're a gigantic fuckfaced douchball (to whom I hope something really terrible happens) and that post you wrote really offended me. For personal reasons I don't want to get into, it's all a little too close to home, can you please withdraw it?" I totally would have deleted the post.

                Instead, you decided that the best possible route was to attempt to have me censored. To remove my choice to exercise my right to self expression. You didn't even try asking nicely. Or even asking douchily.

                Butting heads on the internet needn't strip all of that humanity away. Most times, you'll find I'm actually quite nice and make earnest attempts to be helpful...even do many who have been utter douchewads in the past. But going straight for the censorship button off the bat is really rather a no-go for me.

                That is where I start forming some pretty negative opinions of you, sir. It's where your actions very directly start to walk into territory I feel is immoral and unethical. You went straight to censorship. Do not pass go, do not collect $200, just push the big red button marked "nuke."

                Well, maybe this will be a bit of a lesson. Try the carrot, then the stick. If both fail then and only then seek out someone with a far bigger stick. While I can't speak to the rest of the world, this is the best way to get good results from me.

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: MOD NOTE

                  I did not try to censor you, I reported you for abuse.

                  You made no attempt to engage me in a discussion, you came out and said I was no better than the oppressive, religious far-right and trivialised abortion while you were at it just because I aired an opinion you did not agree with. Then when I pointed out how absurd your statement was you replied by calling me a douche. That's the normal behaviour of a troll.

                  Re-read your posts and then try and point out where I directly attacked you, insulted you or otherwise post anything remotely disparaging toward you. You attacked and insulted me just because I said adding a Start Menu was the wrong thing for Microsoft to do.

                  1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

                    Re: MOD NOTE

                    Your opinion was that I shouldn't be given a choice. As far as I am concerned that does make you no different than the oppressive, religious far-right.

                    Additionally, by what law must abortion be non-trivial? It seems to me the relative importance of it is an individual thing. That it is important to you does not make it important to me. It's quite obvious something I find very important - the right to choose - is not all that important to you.

                    You trivialized the immorality of removing choice from another. I engaged that and voiced my opinion that this was immoral. You then trivialized me and my personal beliefs by attempting claim that they paled in relevance to your own personal moral code and set of psychic traumas.

                    You are defending your choice to reach for the censorship button by saying my beliefs are more trivial than yours whilst crying that I am trivializing your beliefs. Nice.

                    And for the record, while I thought you were probably a douche before, I'm absolutely convinced of it now.

                    Isn't it interesting how diverging moralities generate dichotomies of perception and relative importance?

                    Edited to add: I'm not saying I'm not a douche. I probably am, certainly I appear to have broken a few people's doucheometers by disagreeing vehemently with them. What I am saying, however, is that given your actions I'm pretty confident I'm no douchier than you.

  1. We're all in it together

    It will be known as

    Windows toolate point 2

  2. Hilibnist
    Windows

    RTFM

    From my POV, one of the biggest problems users have with Windows 8 is where 'know it all' technical people have provided a fully installed PC, on which they've 'helpfully' completed all the one-off, out of the box steps. Like the user tutorial which shows you how to use this new OS and what happens when you hover the cursor over the edges of the screen.

    What tutorial? Of course you're baffled, and that goes for all the 'experienced' IT guys who skipped the tutorial steps because they were so excited by the new install. Of course you shouldn't be expected to _learn_ how the new features on your new OS work, that's only for sheeple, isn't it?

    Win 8.1 still isn't perfect, but during the first month, it'll repeat the tutorial pop-ups occasionally to remind you how to access the off-screen menus; that's useful and helps to take the wind out of the complaints of "how the hell was I supposed to guess that!"

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: RTFM

      But instead of tutorials they could've made the interface easier. Realistically what software has main user menus on the left and right of the screen compared to the top and the bottom? Even the start menu is a bottom "pull up" menu.

      Menu's aren't put on the sides because our brain is trained to read left to right/right to left, so that gesture is for switching screens, turning pages, etc. Its a navigation gesture and having menus placed over the navigation gesture is confusing and counter-intuitive and that's Win8's problems, its easy to use user interface is not easy to use.

      1. Hilibnist

        Re: RTFM

        Fair point Matt - I wonder whether the side menus are simply a reflection of widescreens... there's extra space at the sides, so it's a convenient place for info and buttons to be added.

        Of course, none of this explains MS's curious insistence on hiding the Shut Down command. You used to have to "Start" your PC to stop it (well, wasn't everything buried behind the Start button). Now it's just jumbled into the Settings Charm, and not even highlighted as a power on/off button. I've tried to use Windows 8/8.1 'as is', but that's the one weakness I've conceded - adding a Shut Down tile to the Start Screen.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: RTFM

          That's the thing, even if it was because its widescreen it still doesn't make sense as there's this huge space ablove the columns on the Start Screen and no space on the sides.

          I had to use Google to find the shut down button. That should have just been on the charm bar itself.

    2. Roland6 Silver badge

      Re: RTFM

      >Win 8.1 still isn't perfect, but during the first month, it'll repeat the tutorial pop-ups occasionally to remind you how to access the off-screen menus;

      Wow!!!! But if the user just sits there or wildly moves the mouse around Win 8.1 doesn't ask "Do you want the getting started tutorial?"

      Did you know that HP shipped it's systems with a "Getting Started with Windows 8" tutorial, since MS decided to not ship any tutorial materials itself? However, due to a major oversight or limitation in Windows 8, it isn't on the displayed TIFKAM start screen (remember there are no visual cue's to suggest to the new user that the TIFKAM screen scrolls horizontally). So the one action that is common to all GUI's, namely more pointer (mouse, finger etc.) over recognisable 'help' icon and 'click' isn't available to the new user.

      This tutorial is also available via the MS store (yes HP were as daft as MS and didn't make it available via their website or provide a version that could be run on previous versions of Windows), but to a new user, if you can successfully download it you don't really need to read the tutorial.

      Interestingly, I only discovered this tutorial after I had installed ClassicShell as it appears an an explicit app in the menu...

      My point is that (normal) people actually need the tutorial material to be readily and obviously accessible, immediately after first login.

      What many self-declare "experts" miss, is that they read reviews and have other (familiar) systems available from which to access 'expert' resources and hence they don't tend to have the same initial out-of-the-box experience as joe-public. Yes, once a 'normal' user has been oriented they tend to get it and just get on with using Windows, because they are more interested in using Word, Financials, ERP, CRM, etc. ie. the tools that enable them to do their job.

      1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

        Re: RTFM

        Oh, really, it's "just a bunch of whiny nerds" that don't like Windows 8, eh?

        I guess that's why Windows 8 is flying off the shelves, scoping up untold amounts of money from punters' wallets and decimating the market share of both XP and Windows 7. The consumer and small business markets - typically far more end-user driven - are clearly overwhelmingly in love with Windows 8 and driving a new era of awesome as they embrace the post-productivity world.

        ...or not.

        You know, looking at those market figures (especially sales of Windows 7 on consumer/prosumer devices and the rise of the staunchest Windows 7 ally - Lenovo - against all competitors)....if you're right...there's a fuck of a lot of nerds out there. Like, a lot. A lot a lot.

        Enough to make them a market worth building your goddamed operating system for.

        Care to revise your view that "it's just some angsty nerds?" Or perhaps you'd care to concede that there are enough nerds to care about. Maybe you're wanting to admit that nerds have so much influence (despite small numbers) that courting them is a rational business move? I'm fine with any of those, really...

        1. Michael Habel

          Re: RTFM

          A little heads up to you and your Hate Shills that upvoted your comment....

          http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/12/02/windows_8_point_x_market_share/

          lol sarcasm on the Interbutts is such a fine thing I totally missed your jest....

          1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

            Re: RTFM

            Uh...you're pointing at the article that says Windows 8's growth was outpaced by it's three year old predecessor and failed to make a significant dent in it's 13 year old ancestor as evidence that Windows 8 is a success?

            The fuck, what?

            I think you need to read this, and then start learning a lot about how Microsoft reports figures. Such as the fact that units sold and then downgraded are counted as sales of the new OS, rather than the old one.

            Windows 7 is an example of a beloved operating system. One with broad customer support and appreciation. It started off strong and grew pretty much linearly. Windows 8 - like Vista before it - started off weak and grew in an irregular pattern dominated by major contract renewals.

            More critically, Windows 7 is still surpassing Windows 8's growth, despite that fact that all new contract renewals are counted as Windows 8 sales. This means that popular support for Windows 7 is so overwhelming amongst consumers and small businesses that their market signal is completely drowning out Windows 8's corporate and government contract renewal.

            Are you even capable of understanding how unbelievably, overwhelmingly large of a failure that is? Consumers and SMEs don't have a lot of purchasing power when compared to the commercial midmarket, Enterprises, CSPs, MSPs and governments...all of whom are contract purchasers.

            Windows 7 licence growth is almost exclusively coming from new system purchases or retail purchases of the OS. (Open licence could count here too, but almost everyone will buy the newer OS and use the downgrade options.)

            The PC market has been declining year over year. So that means that in a declining market, so many systems are being purchased with Windows 7 that it's growth is outpacing not only retail purchases of Windows 8, but contract renewal rates as well.

            That's mind boggling. That's a failure of epic proportions.

            That's Windows 8.

            Edit; I do realise we're looking at NetApp data here and not counted sales, but MS's official figures follow the NetApp data quite well so far.

  3. jason 7

    My concern....

    ...is that 8.2 is another 3GB install that has to go over 8.1.

    Why? Well I have Windows 8 Pro upgrades. So if I rebuild my Windows 8 machine then I have to install 8.1 and then another OS over the top to get 8.2.

    Basically I'd like to be able to rebuild a machine in a couple of hours rather than 8 or 9.

    1. teapot9999

      Re: My concern....

      I did a clean install using an 8.1 installer in less than an hour. How could it possible take 9 hours!

  4. phil dude
    Linux

    kde has a start button....

    or am I missing the point?

    Kde also has "activities" which is something that took me a while to understand but is quite cool.

    I would be interested in the spreadsheet of things that windoze can do that linux cannot, with some score.

    For example , browsing win == browsing linux ?

    If the computer does what you want it to do....?

    P.

    1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

      Re: kde has a start button....

      Question: can the computer run my Win32 and AMD64 apps? You know, the ones my business relies upon and which would cost somewhere in the neighbourhood of my company's gross income for the next three decades to recode even one? Does it have like-for-like alternatives? For example, ones that can run th multi-million-dollar industrial equipment? No?

      Well then, looks like KDE isn't much of a solution after all.

      1. Tom 7

        Re: kde has a start button....

        Trevor Pott - I'd guess KDE is a far far better solution for your company than MS ever was.

        No I wouldn't guess - its a plain as the start button on the screen!

        1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

          Re: kde has a start button....

          Was that you volunteering to foot the bill for having all the apps recoded, Tom 7? So long as you're paying, I'll gladly switch. Though if truth be told, I prefer Cinnamon. Having to make plasma widgets just to drag a file to the desktop in KDE is irritating as hell.

          Contact information is on the website, any time you're ready to cut that cheque. Last I ran the numbers the conversion would be somewhere in the neighbourhood of 3.4 million dollars. Thanks!

      2. Baron Ebaneezer Wanktrollop III
        Holmes

        Re: kde has a start button....

        I'm not familiar with an AMD64 app? What is that?

        KDE may not be a solution for your requirements, but as your company and therefore its gross income is essentially locked to the Windows OS, regardless of how much of a pile of shite it is, I don't see that as being much of a solution either.

        Anyway, I'm off sleuthing for an AMD64 app.....

    2. phil dude
      Linux

      Re: kde has a start button....

      @Trevor Pott

      Well I extricated myself from Windoze over a period of a few years(!). But that was domestic not business.

      I totally agree with your sentiment of "porting of codes", I have done that for supercomputers....;-)

      My point about the start button (as an example) is that desirable successful features can be maintained easier with FOSS than when the Big Corp decides it wants to differentiate itself from its previous products. Obviously this includes Ubuntu as well. And android. And the other big FOSS projects sometimes appear like that too....

      In my science I have had (mission critical) windows tools that I had to get working under Linux too, mostly to do with microscopes and other "analysis" software. In business I have managed to get windoze "accounting" software to work, which was surprisingly straightforward.

      Depending on the quality of the "app" you are needing for business, the Win32 api implementations (WINE/cxoffice) have proven extremely useful. My personal experience is that applications written using M$ gui tools work very well out of the box, because the libraries they depend on, are widely published.

      It took cxoffice a while but they managed to stablise M$ office and a number of applications. You can pay them to get your app working...

      My technical sense is that if your application is GUI or I/O or "unpublished API" heavy , then you are likely to have more problems "emulating" than applications that crunch away. Predominantly as their DLL's are less likely to call a DLL that is "broken". Of course, I am only talking about avoid full fat virtualisation here, that is area you are probably very familiar with.

      Please understand I am not advocating to you or anyone that Linux is some magic sauce, I lost my fanboism a few years back. I too just want it to work and *everytime*. If this is your living, I want it to work for you too, whatever that platform it is.

      But if Microsoft felt at all threatened by people switching en mass to another platform, perhaps this discussion would be about "what works" rather than "what's missing". The same is true of big application providers. There was a time I wanted photoshop on Linux, but to be honest Adobe made it so painful I just gave up. Gimp/Cinepaint/Digikam etc will do just fine. But then this is not my living...

      I have used the latest microsoft office tools via emulation, and it is nicely polished software. But I have to keep reminding myself the reason why I got out of windows. You use one tool to create/modify something and the corporation has no incentive to make it future proof. This is one of the reason government projects are such failures.

      If M$ had been broken up into OS and Application divisions, what would the IT world look like today?

      I just want stuff to work and *stay* working...

      P.

      1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

        Re: kde has a start button....

        I use Linux extensively. CentOS mostly, but Mint and Android where possible. The problem with upping sticks is that it absolutely is an "all or nothing" approach. WINE only covers so much...and that isn't much! ReactOS covers a bit more, but again...not much.

        I am a hostage, pure and simple. I can't leave because to do so would destroy my livelihood and those of many of the most important people in my life. Yet staying shackled to an abusive partner like MS is intolerable as well.

        Lacking resources to escape and unable to cope with servitude I turn to the only recourse left me: lobbying for change. The chances of success may be low, but it is the only viable alternative left me...and hundreds of millions of others.

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    usabilty labs

    I remember, going back very many years now, MS were very proud that their new release (Office?) had been extensively tested in the development phase by observing how untutored users achieved tasks and the results used to refine the product to make it easier to use.

    Maybe users new to Windows or those happy to undertake what must be a lengthy learning curve do find Win8 to be good. I've never met any and have spent a few unhappy hours resolving issues for other unhappy users.

    I can think of no better way of persuading people to give the Apple ecosystem a try.

    Perhaps the MS developers responsible are in the pay of Apple?

  6. websey

    Well For A Tech Site !!!!

    The thing I find funny about all of this shit about windows 8 / 8.1 and the start menu, is all the moaners that have probably spent an hour using it and then just gone na fuck this!.

    Well why dont you spend a few weeks with ?

    Positives

    - Quicker

    - Easy to access (poor eyesight etc)

    - unified search panel (metro)

    - Legacy compatible (better than win 7)

    - Inbuilt driver database (not had to download any drivers)

    - Team Foundation Integration

    - SkyDrive etc integration

    Negatives

    - Metro Apps (no use)

    - Boot To Desktop (fixed 8.1)

    thats about all i can think of in a negative way of windows 8

    I don't mind metro because all I used to do was hit the windows key and type what I wanted anyway

    and for all those idiots who are harping on about 3.5gb to add a start button, did you not realize it also contains software updates, app updates and a few more things as well as kernel patches. Or was your stupidity blinding you to the bleeding obvious ?

    1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

      Re: Well For A Tech Site !!!!

      I have to use the goddamned thing every fucking day and I still hate the useless post-productivity mess that is Microsoft Tiles 8.11 for Fondlegroups. I hate setting a new system up. I hate the bizzare limitations on consumer versions. I hate the way it spits out printer drivers that work fine (until a reboot) and never give me any sort of shit whatsoever on Windows 7.

      I hate Metro and the fact the stupid hotcorners that make using a vertical taskbar a nightmare. I hate that goddamend charms fuckery and the ribbonised everything. I loathe search - especially unified serach - and want my "slow", iterative, one-file-after-another unindexed Windows XP search that acutally fucking finds shit back.

      I hate full screen applications, how much of a miserable pig it is to close Metro apps with a mouse, that so many things default to Metro and IE11's utter inability to talk to itself. I hate the busted proxy settings and the VPN UI from hell.

      I hate clicking on a printer in order to make "print server" appear so I can tear out drivers and I loathe UEFI boot that's locked down so I can't fix broken partition tables or make dual-booting systems. I hate the stupid steamrollered-flat look of everything that makes buttons so hard to see, especially in non-optimal viewing conditions.

      I am enraged beyond my capability to rationally express how shitty Windows 8 is from almost any remote-control application, especially when Windows 8 is windowed. (Hot corners can eat a sock full of soup.)

      I could go on - for some time - but I'll just take the time to add this: I hate commenters like you.

      Don't assume that we haven't tried this festering shit pile simply because we disagree with it. Some of us loath the thing because we have to use it day in and day out.

      Getting my up button back wasn't worth the trauma inflicted on the rest of the OS. Not by half.

      1. Lorin Thwaits

        Re: Well For A Tech Site !!!!

        BRAVO!!!

        I'm one of the lucky blokes that has escaped to MacOS. Heartfelt sympathies for anyone who has to toil through this completely unusable UI.

    2. Missing Semicolon Silver badge
      Unhappy

      Easier to access?

      I have a friend who is partially sighted. The flatness of the Win8 UI rendered her laptop unusable. Running Word, you could not see where the document ended and the controls began, and the actual usable document area was only half the height of the 15" laptop display.

      I managed to prevent her from throwing the thing out of the window.

      1. Roland6 Silver badge

        Re: Easier to access?

        Apple also overlooked this aspect of their iOS UI. iOS 5 & 6 had reasonable clarity for partially sighted users, as for iOS 7...

    3. jason 7

      Re: Well For A Tech Site !!!!

      @Websey

      Yep I tend to feel the same way.

      Far too much unwarranted spleen really.

      I saw a associate of mine that had a new desktop PC sitting on the table running 8.1.

      Apparently a mate of his bought it to upgrade from his 10 year old XP PC. Apparently he spent just ten minutes using it and went "ahhh f*ck this!" and gave up. Just gave him the PC to take away. For some reason he was under the impression that after 10 years and three operating systems, nothing would have changed. No learning required at all.

      The associate then said "well I agree with him! It's not like Windows 7! Can't shut it down, no start button, where is the desktop? (erm actually at the time it was sitting on the desktop so...anyway)"

      I then took 30 seconds to show him where the Shutdown option was, the Start Button (just where the old one was) and how to boot straight to desktop.

      So I now had it running like Windows 7 and the result? "Ahh well it's still crap!"

      WTF?

  7. Missing Semicolon Silver badge
    Thumb Down

    Not just the start menu (2)

    There's a few other things that got changed in W8 that can't be put back:

    1) Truetype rendering with anti-aliasing off. If you don't have a Retina display, anti-aliasing makes the text on the screen slightly blurry. For some people this gives eyestrain and headaches. You can turn it off (via a couple of registry tweaks) but you then find that hinting and rasterisation for fonts at small sizes has basically been deleted. Segoe UI (Windows 8 Font) which is pretty-well hard-coded into the desktop does not render properly at all, and the old "desktop" fonts (Tahoma, Verdana) don't work properly in the smaller sizes. The result is that with anti-aliasing off, the display is pretty ugly.

    2) Window Furniture. The "flat" modern look is now the only option for desktop windows, so no bevelling and no distinctly-coloured title bar. The borders are also stupidly fat, taking up even more of your precious 1366x768 real estate. Tweak tools that allow you shrink the border size also shrink the mouse-sensitive parts, so the windows are harder to resize.

    3) Task bar "hover" behaviour. On older versions, when you over the mouse over the buttons on a full task bar, the window title pops up immediately. On Win8, the image of the window appears. With no title bar. So if you have a lot of explorer windows open, finding which on is open on which folder is a pain.

    Grr!

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Next updates due 2015?

    2001: XP

    2006: Vista

    2009: 7

    2012: 8

    2015: 8.2?

    Vista -> 7 -> 8 each had a 3 year gap, and 8.2 will be another 3 year gap.

    I'd be willing to bet it's windows 9 they're working on, just labelled internally as 8.2 (much like how windows 7 was windows 6.1)

  9. stim

    fine for me

    I get on fine with windows 8, have it on 3pcs, a surface, a phone, no problems, thoroughly enjoy it, don't know what all the fuss is about. People really do hate change don't they.

    The start menu will be making such a late come-back that it will be forgotten by then, clever to release rumours of it's return to shut the moaners up though.

  10. sisk

    So we have one interface for a desktop with a keyboard and mouse and one for mobile. In other words they're doing what anyone with a lick of common sense would have done to begin with.

  11. jason 7

    The Start Button proper.....

    ....will appear ready for the next scheduled corporate refresh in a year or two.

    MS knew 8 as it was would never be an 'enterprise/corporate' OS so took the opportunity to try some new approaches for the domestic market.

  12. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Classic Shell FTW

    Classic Shell works for my three machines around the family. It nicely survived the update from Win8 to Win 8.1 but for overall OS performance (mostly on older kit) I prefer Windows XP with post SP3 security updates embedded into the install ISO via slipstream tools then strip the ISO size back to a bare/minimal custom 150MB install image using the excellent free NLite deployment tool. Installs mostly unattended from scratch between 5 and 10 minutes and boots to usable desktop between 5 and 10 seconds dependent on the host hardware. Total install size around 2GB including swap file. Not so worried about malware when the whole system is fully patched and can be rebuilt from scratch with essential data restored from NAS backup in under 15 minutes.

  13. Private Citizen.AU
    Windows

    Drunk handicapped UI

    I must admit that I originally decided to install Windows 8 on my Desktop last christmas - while full of christmas spirits (SIC).

    One of the really annoying things was the active corners that would throw the OS in my face when I trying use older apps- very annoying in critical gaming moments..

    But worse still was trying to use the mouse to power off after a few (sometimes more than a few) drinks.

    I suppose I should thank someone at Microsoft knocking me out of my windows comfort zone now I am considering and learning other OS options.

  14. Lorin Thwaits

    It's about effing time, Microsoft.

    and... WHAT THE FUCK... It's BEEN time for a whole year now.

    And you're not coming to market for another TWO YEARS??? ARE YOU MAD??? If you lose your shirt, it's your own doing.

  15. Rattus Rattus

    Will these updates...

    ...remove that FUCKING "Charms Bar" and put all the settings in the ONE GODDAMN PLACE?

    If not, then there is still zero chance of me ever installing Windows 8.

    1. websey

      Re: Will these updates...

      The joys of 8.1 allow you to completely remove the charm bar (thank god I hated it)

      The point is you can moan and moan all you want but until there is a competitor that garners as much developer time and input that windows does you are stuck with it.

      Now I know most people wont like this, but change happens.

      Now deal with it.

      1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge
        Mushroom

        Re: Will these updates...

        You're right; change happens. Nothing compels us to accept it as is. We have every right to fight that change, or to work to create yet more change which better suits our needs.

        We're not stuck with anything. We can protest, we can vote with our wallets, we can direct resources into creating the alternatives we need. There are always options available, even if the only one left is revolution.

        You have to deal with that, as the above is reality. But fuck you, sir, we don't have to deal with your bullshit assertions at all.

  16. teapot9999

    why should they listen

    If you keep on using Windows then it doesn't matter how much you whinge. Either stop using it or accept that they will not listen to your feedback.

  17. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    never seen such a negative reaction to an OS

    I put the occasional machine together or set them up if people ask me. I don't court the work; I've other things to do with my time but, on the other hand, I don't like seeing people struggle. Hence, I'll help with new kit if someone asks.

    As an impartial peddler and user and the three big OSs, I can honestly say I've never seen a more robustly negative response than the one I've encountered with Windows 8. Actual anger, not annoyance - anger. I just can't in good conscience recommend it to anyone; indeed, folk that have not heeded my experience and gone ahead with getting kit with it pre-installed, have come back to me with red faces. I'm not a 'told you so' type of person, but....

    Vista was a ghastly mess but one you could muddle through with a push. I just don't think 8 affords that opportunity to the average (non-power) user. I like OSX, but cannot always recommend getting a Mac on those occasions it seems like such an unnecessary expense. Sometimes, folks don't want to pay for a licensed Windows 7 install, and I don't do dodgy copies.

    Hence, I find myself setting up Ubuntu now more and more to plug that gap. I like it, so that's good, but it's also due there not really being anything else that suits. So there is a terrible gap, that MS have widened themselves - they took a leap with 8, assuming everyone would follow. Now they're on the other side, stuck there, yelling 'come on over - it's fine. Honestly'. Meanwhile, our legs are tired and want to tread more familiar ground.

  18. Mike Flugennock
    Coat

    Misquoted?

    "...Rumors that Redmond is planning a new round of updates to the various forms of its OS first surfaced last week, with ZDNet's Mary Jo Foley reporting that Microsoft will deliver a mass overhaul called 'Threshold' that will bring significant changes to Windows, Windows RT, and Xbox One..."

    You sure that shouldn've been "Threshold Of Pain"?

    Thanks, you've been wonderful. I'm here all week.

  19. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Command line prompt FFS. Really, I'm not joking. It's actually harder to get work done these days than it was a decade or two ago and that's almost a moral issue.

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