back to article London Underground cleaners to refuse fingerprint clock-on

Cleaners working on the London Underground will resort to industrial action this week in protest against the introduction of a controversial biometric clocking-in system. Starting at just after midnight on Thursday morning, "up to 300 cleaners" will join in the action by refusing to scan their fingerprints every time they …

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    1. Maharg

      Re: Union idiots !

      Thankfully I have never had an issue with any job that needed union help, and I have had some shitty jobs, but because you disagree with how some can be seen as abusing their powers, it doesn’t mean that they are unnecessary. If you look at the decline of the British Car industry in the 70s and 80s a lot of people will blame the unions, but in Germany, the country that rapidly took over from us and are now miles ahead, also had unions, and the union representative was on the board of directors, the idea is the union was the voice of the workers, and the workers and the bosses work with each other to ensure both decent working conditions and productivity. It worked. While in the UK we had and still have this ‘us and them’ mentality, which just doesn’t work.

      Unions are not the problem, neither are the employers, it’s the exclusion of the unions in some industries from the running of the business, and the siege mentality that the unions have that is the problem.

      The company I work for has encouraged union membership since they had one in the 1940s, you know how many strikes or threats of strikes they have had? Big fat 0, while competitors have had a number in living memory.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Union idiots !

        The BL unions were masters at taking the mickey when it came to negotiations.

        For example at the then new TR7 factory at Speke on Merseyside the Union called a strike for the removal of the (small amount) of rat poo in the massive new factory. BL management did that, and the workers went back....

        ...Only to go back out on strike again because the floors were wet from where the floor had been cleaned due to the above.

        The unions had no wish to help the company survive, as far as they were concerned the factories were there to simply provide employment, not actually build cars.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Union idiots !

      Yes! Let's pay everyone a bag of rice a day and insist they live in company dormitories of 20 a room and take their board from the cost of their wages. Gidiot Osborne and his mates must love the likes of you! Hooray forcorpratism and victorian values. Now excuse me whilst I grow a forelock...

  1. clean_state

    the UK: one happy place

    Lots of brits on this comment threads have never heard of the Stasi, or realised that 1984 was not a completely fictional novel (Big Brother = Stalin in case you wonder).

    In countries that have been burned by the horrors of the last century, making a computer file on anyone is controlled, even more so if it is a biometric file. You have to declare the purpose of the file and then stick to it. Finally, cross-referencing files between various organisations is allowed under strict and exceptional authorisation only. And it's a good thing.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: the UK: one happy place

      > In countries that have been burned by the horrors of the last century, making a computer file on anyone is controlled

      And I can confirm what the poster above says. In some countries those lessons have been learned, others still have to.

    2. Dodgy Geezer Silver badge

      Re: the UK: one happy place

      ...Finally, cross-referencing files between various organisations is allowed under strict and exceptional authorisation only....

      Ha, ha!

      That is all...

  2. Maharg

    No Unions...

    That’s a nice view to have when talking about people who could in your view be replaced, but let’s take a hypothetical example of Firemen, let’s say Fireman’s wages are going to be cut and they only get paid for the time they spend putting out fires, and we end up with hardly any firemen, and those that are left taking as long as possible to put out fires.

    Well that’s not very good is it?

    So what’s going to happen? And who’s going to do anything about it?

    The Government? No they are the ones who decided to make the change, and getting a new party in power will take a couple of years with no guarantee of a change.

    The People? If you care so much you be a fireman, well, no, because I don’t want to do that and I’m not trained.

    The Firemen? No, anyone who refuses will just get fired.

    Hmmmmm, if only there was some kind of organisation who had enough members to act as one, and therefore have more power than its individual member, if only they were able to elect representatives to hold talks on behalf of the members.

    Same with Teachers, same with Police, same with any profession, if you are in a situation where you are being treated unfairly you can just leave, but what’s to stop you being treated unfairly in the next job?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: No Unions...

      @Maharg - the problem with that argument is simply this. If that is the case, how do all the jobs and professions that *DON'T* have unions manage to survive and succeed. I work in a profession where, on paper at least, I can be fairly easily replaced. I have no union to protect me. If I need to represent myself, I have to do it myself. If I and some colleagues want to represent ourselves as a group, we have to agree and do it ourselves. Yet I am still in work and not being shafted by "the evil bosses".

      1. Maharg

        Re: No Unions...@AC

        The problem with that argument is simply this, you don’t need a union.

        As I pointed out, I have never needed to use the union, or airbags, I have never used an airbag, or gas mask, I have never used a gas mask, all smoke alarms have done for me is make a noise when I burn food, I also don’t need anti-malaria tablets where I am, I have never be arrested and put on trial, so I guess we can get rid of any rights to a fair trial that may exist.

        Just because I have never needed to use any of the above, that doesn’t mean they are unnecessary.

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Sounds like the dockers in the 70s to me

    Anyone remember the dockers refusing to handle containers for similar reasons back in the 70s? Of course it was all wrapped in fancy words about solidarity, tradition, not giving in to big business etc. - when all they were really on about was losing the ability to steal from the loads!

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Sounds like the dockers in the 70s to me

      Or when the Glasgow shipyards wanted to move to modern presses and rollers so their cost of production could stay competitive. Thing was, the modern equipment only needed one man to operate it, not three, so the Union went on strike....

  4. Rol

    Bah, bah!

    Why don't they just bah-code their foreheads at the local tattooist?

    Or put one of those huge yellow tags through their ear, you know, the ones they use on cattle.

    My personal choice is an asbo bracelet on their ankles, then you can track them when they are not on track to complete the stuff on the track.

    Here's a clever one, train a sniffer dog to recognise them all by smell and report their comings and goings by barking at a computer terminal that is equipped to recognise the dogs linguistic style.

    No wait, I've got it.

    The firm give out free doughnuts, but hidden inside are coded RF tags and enough Immodium to keep them in place until the next shift, brilliant, I'll be picking up a nice little earner from ISS if only Virgin did a service into orbit. Does seem a bit silly to run the underground from outa space, well that's modern management for you.

    1. Rol

      Re: Bah, bah!

      "So, Bob, who's clocked in already"

      "Well, err, Mr Sausages has clocked in five times, Mr I C Arat twice, Mr Marijuana twenty seven times and Mr Khat seven"

      "This dog thing isn't working Bob"

      "No sir"

      "OK, let's make with the doughnuts"

      ...............

      "Well Bob how's it going, everyone clocked in?"

      "Err, I think there's a problem"

      "What? I see everyone as clocked in"

      "No, that's just fat Fred who went past"

      1. Rol

        Re: Bah, bah!

        A down vote, are you having a laugh.....oh I see, obviously not.

        Got a miserable crowd in tonight, who was the warm up act?

        Eadon?

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I run a finger-scanning system where I work. First it doesn't store your fingerprints, so there's no biometric data to be leeched off. It does a comparison to stored values which are pretty particular to the system. Second the reliability is quite good, there's always a few people for whom it doesn't work or works poorly, and if extra "training" of the system doesn't work, we just revert to a system where the sensitivity is so low it accepts that person. (FYI, users punch in their number then scan). This represents about 1-2% of those using the system; it works fine for the rest, and this is now relatively old tech.

    Third, the major impact is a significant drop (almost a total absence of) faked clock-ins where someone is clocked in "in-absentia" by someone else. And if you think that doesn't normally occur then you're either stupid or deluded. We gained about 5% on our payroll costs within a month, and suddenly a group of workers who were regularly absent (mainly Mondays and Fridays) started showing up because they were no longer being incorrectly registered as actually attending.

    The Union did not like it at first, but generally the workers accepted it. There was one group who strongly objected, and used very similar "dignity and security" arguments to the cleaners union hgere. Funnily enough all of the members of the "regularly absent" group were part of this group who objected. The real reason for the objection was. of course, the imminent loss of their little "perk" of 2-3 free but paid days per month. The main part of the staff who didn't exploit this loophole in the old system were generally actually quite approving of the elimination of the perk which affected them by having them work harder to cover the absentees.

    Properly managed, scanning is a perfectly fair and reasonable system, and I'd suggest based on my experience that the major objection is because a rort exists and is being exploited, probably with union collusion. Why not save the fight for a real issue.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      > The real reason for the objection was. of course, the imminent loss of their little "perk" of 2-3 free but paid days per month

      The problem with what you expose is not being able to see the forest for the trees.

      What if, for example, those who enjoyed this "little perk" suddenly decided to leave for greener pastures and you had to hire and train new employees, who may not be of the same calibre overall, or may simply demand more money to start with? Assume they do not actually leave, but their productivity now drops because they're pissed out at the way they've been treated? Where would your 5% savings go then?

      This is just an example and it may not apply to your particular case. The point being that sometimes you have to give a little and do the smart thing rather than being a short-sighted control freak.

      I have been both an employee and an employer so seen it from both sides.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Imagine the scene, your a checkout operator at $supermarket. You decide, as is your "little perk", to not turn up to your shift. You don't call in, or worse get someone to clock you in. Supervisor is now down one member of staff.

        Options are:

        1: Run with one staff member short, meaning your other staff may not be able to take breaks as usual, due to no relief being available, or more delays for customers at peak times. Other staff may take justifiable umberance to this state of affairs.

        Cost: 1x staff member shift costs, staff/customer goodwill

        2: Call someone in at short notice to cover the absence. If your lucky you might actually find someone.

        Cost: 2x staff member shift costs (1x for the original absentee, 1x for the call-out)

        3: Introduce a clocking-in system that can't be fudged, so that the staff members who don't turn up aren't paid

        Cost: New system, paid for by reduced outgoings on options 1 and 2

        I do understand that some workplaces are more laid-back than this, but when your looking at a "bums on seats" job like checkouts or cleaning there is an expectation to actually turn up or give a good reason as to why not. You can't clean a tube train from home.

      2. Alan Brown Silver badge

        "What if, for example, those who enjoyed this "little perk" suddenly decided to leave for greener pastures and you had to hire and train new employees, who may not be of the same calibre overall,"

        Employees who regularly do this tend not to be of the calibre which fits into most cannons.

        Essential staff usually have a pretty responsible attitude to showing up.

  6. Herby

    Sand Pebbles

    Just saw this movie on the TV Saturday. I draw some conclusions in regards to "cleaners".

    YMMV.

    Yes, I don't like unions, outlived their usefulness (especially in the public sector here in the USA).

  7. tempemeaty

    As human beings they are due certain human dignities

    What's next? Tagging people like cattle.

  8. gh1978

    I don't really see the problem. We've been using biometrics since the 1994 at our place, and using them to 'clock in' since 2000.

    The systems aren't linked to anything and the system doesn't actually store anything that can show an image of your fingerprint.

    ID cards, clocking cards etc are easy to forget/lose, fingers are generally always with you !

    The employees contract will no doubt state that they have to record their attendance using whatever method is decreed by the employer. If they don't clock in/out then they have no proof of hours worked, so no pay.

  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    You know who else used biometric identification? Nazis.

    1. Joe Harrison

      That's it then

      AC mentioned the Nazis. Thread officially Godwinned no more comments please

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: That's it then

        Wrong. Godwin does not apply if the subject is actually related to the topic discussed [1]. Which it is [2].

        [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law#Corollaries_and_usage

        [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropometry#History

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    just love the snarky quotes around 'dignity' - something el reg hacks have no need for?

  11. This Side Up
    FAIL

    If the fingerprint readers are anything like those on the HP laptops I use they're more trouble than they're worth. Having spent the last few weeks removing the paint from my car with 180 wet-and-dry my fingerprints are virtually unreadable anyway!

  12. hi_robb

    So...

    The cleaners are going to be sticking two fingers up at the scanners!

    Someone needs to tell them that one's enough for the machine to work...

  13. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    98%

    "According to the RMT union, 98 per cent of the 103 staffers who responded to the ballot voted in favour of the plans, which stopped short of calling for a full-on strike."

    That doesn't equal a whole number of people.

    The other 2% of people don't actually exist.

  14. Dodgy Geezer Silver badge

    Join the club...

    "...The union is vague on exactly why biometric fingerprinting is a bad idea. When The Register contacted the RMT, a spokesperson told us staff felt "brutalised" by the system, which made them feel like "slabs of meat"....

    Yup.

    Modern life, with CCTV surveillance, speed cameras spewing out automatic fines, menu help-lines and other examples of the ROTM brutalises us all. A union member can strike. All the average citizen can do is refuse to vote.

    Which, increasingly, is what we're doing. In droves...

    1. Alan Brown Silver badge

      Re: Join the club...

      "A union member can strike. All the average citizen can do is refuse to vote."

      The point is that "they" don't _want_ you to vote. Things get rammed through by relying on the average citizen not caring.

  15. chris lively

    Interesting

    The union reps said they represent between 200 and 300 workers. Percentage wise, that's a HUGE gap.

    Point is, they have no idea how many individuals are actually employed. Meaning they really aren't tracking who even shows up to work. I'm sure the morning starts off with "today you are Bob and you are Mary". Are they paid daily?

    Management most likely doesn't want to deal with the constant payroll changes. Just as long as enough people show up each day it's fine. Reminds me of day labor workers in the US. You pull up, ask for 5 guys, then take them to the work site. At the end of the day you pay them cash. No paperwork needed.

    Quite frankly this would make it even harder for those with criminal records to find gainful employment.

    All that said, I think anyone making less than say $20k/year ought to simply not even be on the radar. We need cheap labor of which there is certainly a supply. As long as the job is being done then who cares? Maybe we just vette the managers and make them criminally responsible if one of their team does something "terroristic" in nature. That would ensure the workers are being checked on, which is all that real matters

  16. kain preacher

    Woundering

    If this compromise would work. You swipe a card that has the thumb print stored on the card. That way the info is kept with they employee. Swipe the card and then out your thumb on the reader. When the employee is no longer with the company you revoke the card.

  17. Minutia

    "We believe this technology infringes on staff civil liberties"

    What liberties? To buddy punch?

  18. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Let's not forget the Ick factor here - I don't want to press my thumb onto a greasy panel touched by dozens of other people - especially when signing out from this particular job - everyone's personal hygiene becomes as good as the most slovenly person on the shift - warts for all!

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