Windows 8 hardware rules 'derail user-friendly Linux'

Suits

Guess M$ is starting to feel cocky because they have not been sued in awhile, or is desperate.

Anyone for a new class action suit barring the use of signing as anti-competitive and in violation of earlier agreements from the last time M$ was found to be a illegal monopoly?

Forbidden?

I don't want to buy a machine that even uses the word.

I wouldn't buy it even if it forbade Windows!

Would it not be ironic, though...

If this ultimately had a negative impact on Windows sales. Bare with me..

Let's assume that currently most Lusers pay the Windows tax and buy popular hardware because it's open and supported; they also run multiple devices and recommend hardware to their friends and family - say an average of 5 Windows devices (wiped and Linux installed) per 2 Windows devices purchased by average consumer.

If Microsoft go ahead with this, then I certainly intend to purchase only from vendors that pre-install Linux. If most other Lusers went the same way, and fled from mainstream locked-down consumer electronics, Microsoft might take a significant hit.

Even with f+f recommendations (it's very easy to spread FUD about how locked down that Packard-Bell computer is they want to buy and how they should buy this cheaper option and purchase the Windows OS separately). I get asked a lot, I even get asked to buy hardware for people as it's all too technical for them.

It might even bring some clarity to the statistics for a change. For years Microsoft has been able to claim the number of Windows licenses sold (excluding downgrades and wipes). We might get to see what the true figure is after you remove the number of Windows that are wiped and replaced by Linux - which I suspect is far higher than website visitor counts.

=== TL;DR ===

By drawing a line in the sand, Microsoft could unintentionally cause a statistical surge in Linux popularity; as multi-PC Lusers flee and buy Linux pre-installed vendors. Thus revealing the hidden percentages of those who pay the Windows tax but wipe and install Linux.

I have 4 devices with Linux installed for which Windows tax was paid. I'm not proud of that fact.

Meh... this is why I build my own kit

granted... the non-portable kit for the most part. Though when I do buy pre-built portable kit, I make sure it's been out for a while already, price has stabilized, I find a sale (hopefully), and it conforms to my current needs and potential future wants (which include the ability to do my bidding after the warranty is up... whether that's just me being able to fix it endlessly or install a different OS or really getting down and dirty and modifying the hardware to accept additional kit). Typically, it's not that hard to find something that fits my criteria. I have yet to buy an OEM system other than a laptop. I've always built my own desktops/towers/servers/etc. This always gives me the best options for price points and typically ends up being about the same price as an OEM system with much better upgradability since I don't have to deal with using OEM kit should something take a dump.

what me worry?

micros~1 will need to pay money to make arm based phones with windows sell. that is because no matter how good the hardware, sane people would never pay money for that thrash.

and as far as laptops and desktops are concerned, those of us who want to will fiddle with the bios.

on the other hand, anything that beefs up the utterly pathetic security of windows would be welcome. hopefully it would mean less reboots every day.

Not surprised about ARM systems

Microsoft is desperate to get their foot in on the ARM market so of course they want to lock up their devices.

What I find very hypocritical is MS doesn't sell their own hardware (aside from the xbox) and they made their name by systems being free and allowing people to install Windows on their hardware.

I think MS is afraid that what worked for them will work for others. I certainly hope someone puts an end to this. I'll certainly be writing to politicians about this and I hope others do.

No doubt the linux kiddies will hold this tiny concern responsible for the fact that their hobby operating system continues to maintain a 1% market share, despite decades of promotion by thousands of shrill advocates.

Real laws..

Hardware should be required to ship with a functional, free open source OS by default.

Commercial operating systems (including Windows) should be an optional purchase, to be installed by the user. (Insert CD, install away, not hard)

This should apply to Computers, Tablets, Phones etc.

The bundling and shady deals need to stop. The majority of people don't even need Windows, but are forced to pay for it because there are no other realistic options..

Clauses like the one Microsoft are trying to enforce on device manufacturers should be illegal.

UEFI signed boot lockouts.

I'm not certain I'm following all the arguments about this issue at this stage of the game. What I'm betting on is that all we'd have to have "keys" for would be lilo or grub/grub2

Since UEFI will be calling the bootloader, NOT the kernel or initrd

That said, since there's a parallel argument here about linux on the desktop.

I have under my administration at this time ~1350 linux servers, mix of RHEL4 and RHEL5, Proliant and Xseries stuff.

Other than two or three occasions when I've had to update the base initrd for my kickstarts based on hardware, in the last 5 years I've had 3 systems (of that 1350) that presented issues during installation ... all three had obscure hardware problems (one a bad midplane in a DL780G5, two identical cases of an IBM disk controller that had a bad firmware update performed by the previous owner, yes - -they were indeed recycled)

On the server world, my build times are (7 to 14 hours of paper work to get the box racked and cabled, 45 minutes of kickstart/cfengine preconfig, 17 minutes to install) and 2 reboots later I have a production ready box.

I've three linux systems at home, one, my firewall, slack is old old old pc with several nics. It was a 2 hour setup to get it running as the firewall. No issues, but then there's bugger all running on it. One, our eldest's current personal system -- total of 45 minutes to install and get it running, no issues no problems no hiccups. The last one, mine, has been:

Slackware, Gentoo, FC 15, Ubuntu.

Only the gentoo install presented issues, ever, and honestly - - the issues it presented I created by trying to be creative.

Linux also happens to run on my work laptop, with a corporate approved image, and almost (all) the corporate required tools. I have a windows kvm image for the ONLY bit that doesn't run in linux, and am contributing to the effort to port that remaining tool to linux.

I've converted several folks who are not (heavy) gamers to linux systems -- and very rarely get support calls. And I can provide support over the net with an ssh session.

Linux is quite friendly -- most times I've been called to help someone out with a linux desktop issue, they've precipitated the problem by deciding they know more than the OS tools do.

And just in case you wonder; our eldest is a heavy gamer. Wine has come a HELL of a long way in the last while. I would not recommend Linux + wine + windows games to a complete noob, but I will recommend it to someone who has a good idea about basic computing.

And -- well -- excuse me -- I have to go back to my Deus Ex now.

How long until this 'signing key'

... is stolen, hacked or whatever.

Micros~1 security = joke.

Other markets.

Will I be able to install Windows 8 on a machine which doesn't have this secure loader feature, such as a machine I bought with Windows 7. Or a machine I assembled from parts?

Will Windows 8 be available to small companies assembling computers from parts.

Given that different countries have different laws on corporate structures, can Microsoft reliably distinguish between private individuals and businesses in setting their rules on who can do what?

Linux - time to step up to the plate, but who?...

Luckily this is comment #160 or something, so the hail of bullets won't actually arrive...

Microsoft is a hard nosed business and it's going ahead with this no matter what.

The OEM's will all be on board, especially in this financial climate, with the hope that windows 8 will shift hardware.

Bottom line, they will march to the microsoft drum regardless.

So, it seems obvious to me, that the biggest players in Linux, if they actually give a damn, will need to step up to the plate and start talking to OEM's.

I can't see this happening. Canonical with Ubuntu want to tackle the mobile device market.

Suse - not even sure where they figure.

RedHat - server only

Who else is there?

Just individuals passionate about Linux - and to be honest, I don't really care if anyone else installs Linux or not. Windows is good, Mac is good, Linux is good.

It's not like I feel it should be my mission in life to convert people to penguin power, other than tell them how good it is.

Fails at stated purpose (except on Arm)

As it stands, this completely fails to meet it's stated purpose. A properly secured OS can't be rooted unless you have physical access to the hardware. Since you need to physically on the hardware to install new keys, you gain absolutely nothing from this. Unless of course you have a poorly secured OS ;-)

As for Arm systems, this approach actually does perform as advertised, although as noted, at the expense of Linux and any other OS.

I suspect bodies such as the EU and others will hamper the attempt to completely lock Linux out. We may well end up with a situation where machines come with secure boot to Windows only, or have insecure boot (ie. the feature disabled, rather than changeable keys). Either way, all of this would be unnecessary if Microsoft could make a half way decently secured OS.

devestating for some dutch gov

In the netherlands there is a large department that uses a secure memory stick as booting device to connect to the department's network. Personal equipment is used. This MS policy will harm all users big time when it starts to prevent officers to use their fresh bought laptop/pc to use this stick. If Dutch gov is wise they have to protect there investment now by stopping MS with this policy.

WTF is all that noise in here ?

Locking out Linux ?

I have just been reading a Red Hat doc titled "GRUB and the boot process on UEFI-based x86 systems"

It doesnt look too hard, for a fat fingered oaf like myself.

Some of you flamers could probably do it too.

So calm it down chaps, penguin power still appears to be an option

Linkage for the lazy

http://docs.redhat.com/docs/en-US/Red_Hat_Enterprise_Linux/6/html/Installation_Guide/s2-grub-whatis-booting-uefi.html