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back to article The moment a computer crash nearly caused my car crash

I very nearly had a terrible car accident: my car almost left me stranded on the tracks of my city's light rail transit. The short version of the story is that my car started acting up, of all times, as I was on the way to the mechanic for an oil change. “Acting up” in this case meant refusing to go above 20kph (12.4mph) for …

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  1. Jacqui

    Volvo 760 turbo 1986 Uk model

    This had ABS but on heavy packed snow the fron wheels (it was a RWD auto) would go into judder and slowly crawl forward no matte rhow hard you braked. The "trick" was to brake then apply the parking brake and if need be put it into neutral.

    Only ever happened to me twice but its prettycary to have a big car like this not stop no matte rhow hard you press the brake pedal!

    Jacqui

    p.s A friend had a certain model of french estate car and was having trouble with engine performance. I did a web search for him and found the problem. If the car is not given a good welly down the motorway at least once a month, a sensor in the "cat" will limit the engine to 30HP - down from 120+HP! The "fix" is to pay the main deal some 500UKP to reset the sensor.

    If this fails, the sensor/cat/... is replaced at a cost of 1500+UKP. The car is worth ~600UKP.

    He also had major problem with canbus resulting the boot randomly opening so he sold the car on as spare or repair.

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  2. Timmay
    Paris Hilton

    Semi

    I love it when Americans write "semi" when referring to lorries/trucks - it's fine when said with an American accent (ie. sem-eye), but when reading it (and with my brain's British voice) it sounds like something phallic, which makes the following slightly chucklesome and leaves me feeling quite immature:

    "What if my computer had made such a decision while going 100kph on the highway closely followed by a semi?"

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  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    You do realise that the ECUs come from a handful of suppliers don't you? And that the amount of 'manufacturer-specific' code is actually rather small? So, switching from 'Mercedes to Audi' (for example) is unlikely to change much of the actual software being run?

    Just asking.

    Best Regards,

    Someone who works in Automotive Software and wishes therefore to remain AC

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  4. Blubster
    Happy

    Rise of the machines

    This is the beginning of the word-wide domination of computers over mankind. This car clearly made an attempt to kill the car's occupant but it's limited (for now) intelligence and computing capacity made it fail in the attempt. Connecting it to an analyser merely allowed it to access another PC and no doubt the interweb so that it could learn from it's mistake.

    Trevor Pot wants to watch his step from now on.

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  5. cowslayer
    Facepalm

    Unbelievable

    Way too many people here criticising modern cars, stating that you should learn how to drive better instead of owning a car with all the fancy gizmos. It is becoming clear to me that the reason we don't have the so promised flying cars is that not even el reg readers would by one, unless of course they were entirely mechanical.

    I for one value the modern innovations inside my car, and as such put my trust and life into the engineering it has been through. To move into the future, putting a big manual override button on the dash will never work if we want cars to drive autonomously or perhaps take off. If the software or engineering has issues, they need to be resolved, not removed.

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    1. Dick Pountain
      Reply Icon

      >if we want cars to drive autonomously or perhaps take off.

      As visitors to the 1961 Monza Grand Prix would tell you, cars driving autonomously and taking off has been possible for many years, and is not to be encouraged.

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    2. Intractable Potsherd
      Reply Icon
      Coat

      "... want to drive autonomously"??

      Why the hell would anyone want to drive autonomously? That is definitely not something to aspire to, and a good reason to keep everything mechanical.

      Mine's the one with the keys for the old manually-controlled car in the pocket.

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  6. pordzio

    Well, I know of at least one car, that is lethal in dangerous situations, Namely, tme Merc A-class (older ones):

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Um-XlKerWvA

    There's also a link in the comments to the whole test this clip comes from.

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  7. Andus McCoatover
    Windows

    Isn't this what happened on AF477?

    Confused by conflicting information, the computer on the plane basically said "Fuc*k this for a game of soldiers, I'm outta here! Over to you blokes".

    Problem was, the 'blokes' weren't sufficiently experienced to realise the severity problem, being reliant on the 'puuter to do the flying. The rest is history.

    We're too bloody reliant on these systems, and not reliant on our own skills.

    In the case of lessons learned from AF477 (and others) I think it should be mandatory for pilots to do something like 1/10 flights without autopilot, to re-learn how to fly a *real* plane, rather than a simulator.

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    1. Anonymous Coward
      Reply Icon
      Anonymous Coward

      Yes, and no.

      Where the airbus at least had a well-defined fall-back that actually gave the pilots _more_ leeway (including for fscking up), the car 'puter gets confused and _limits_ what the car can do "for safety". "Taking safeguards away" (and announcing loudly that this happens) is something quite different from "crippling the device as a 'safeguard'" with as a result a car that suddenly performs way under spec, unexpectedly suddenly so. With full safety features on you can't even stall an airbus, whereas without them you can but you can equally well fly safely (if only you knew how to). With full ABS active it might save you from getting stuck in a dangerous slip, but with the bloody thing confused you can't drive safely at all; vehicles suddenly slowing well under the going average are actively dangerous, and if unexpectedly slow to get out of the way even moreso.

      Yes, I would expect airbus pilots to be experienced in flying under whatchamacallit "ALTERNATIVE LAW". That and a few other things, but I wrote an (also overly long) comment about that with that article. The similarity between car and airbus is that it is both our automation improvements that are dropping the ball. The differences are in how much you can still do about it given a "confused" automaton, and the risks are therefore different also. The airbus looks to be the safer bet, actually.

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  8. b166er

    @phuzz, Fenton?

    @Bassey, highly unlikely that if you're doing (hopefully) <30mph in an area with 'driveways', that you'll end up with anything worse than a cracked bumper (unless you're not watching the road (and pavement) as carefully as you should).

    Also, I'm not 'hollier' than anyone, though I can get a bit prickly when accused of such!

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  9. JeffyPooh
    Pint

    The false assumption spotted...

    "The mechanic ran a pile of diagnostics and came back to me with results..."

    The false assumption here is that the mechanic has necessarily correctly diagnosed the actual root cause (i.e. the theory that the car is fundamentally designed incorrectly). Seems highly unlikely.

    It's 80%/20% odds that the root cause of the problem is an intermittent sensor (or wiring to same). A fundamental design flaw is possible, but far less likely. It's trivial to design a traction control system to keep up with a real-world wheel no matter how fast it accelerates or spins. The computer probably gets a pulse every few degrees of rotation for each wheel. Spinning on black ice is part of the basic design inputs.

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    1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge
      Reply Icon

      The mechanic

      The mechanic in question is probably the best trained and qualified for this make/model of car in the city. He has over 30 years experience as a mechanic with this make of car and is highly sought after. (He gets someone trying to headhunt him on a very regular basis.)

      The chances that he has misdiagnosed this - and trust me, he looked at the sensors as well as ran his own tests - are so slim as to be nonexistent.

      The other issue here is that no, the computer isn't really designed incorrectly at all. That was never the point of the article. The computer sensed something bizarre and did exactly what it should have (throttle things down) to prevent further damage etc. The design issues are about reporting what the computer is doing – and why – to the driver.

      The computer did its job. The driver (me) had no idea that the computer was even involved here, let alone why it was doing what it was doing. There is the issue. The question is not one of “make the computer capable of handling every possible situation.” That isn’t possible. The question is “where does the burden lie in ensuring that ‘what is occurring and why’ is properly communicated to the user?”

      Should the communication of that information be a required aspect of the design of the computer system? Should this be buried in a user manual or EULA and we simply wash our hands of it, telling the user it is their problem? Should the user have to know every possible operatin and failure mode of the computer in thier car? Should we offer training, or make training mandatory? Who pays for that training?

      Those are important questions relating to design (and real engineering!) that are only going to become more important – not less – as out society becomes more computerised.

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  10. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I agree that car computers should fail in a safer way, but shouldn't the title really have been "*The moment I nearly caused my car to crash because I am too much of a dick to call road rescue, putting other road user in lethal danger as well as myself"?

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  11. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    If you'd realised it was the computer you may have tried to fix it yourself instead of taking it to the expert in the garage.

    You would have become what you despise!

    So it's good that the computer's existence is hidden from the user

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  12. Jamie Kitson
    Thumb Down

    wtf?

    "...we blame the user. While perhaps acceptable when dealing with PCs and smartphones, our blame-the-victim culture must not be allowed to extend to embedded systems."

    So because it happened to you, you're not to blame, however, if it happens to those lusers you look down on, that's ok.

    I really don't see the difference between UI on an embedded system and a PC/smartphone, they should both be helpful and as easy/stright forward to use as possible. You want your car to be easy to use so that you can use it, while you want a PC to be hard to use to keep you in a job and your ego high. It's a contradiction if you ask me.

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  13. Big_Boomer Silver badge
    Megaphone

    Soon you will all be ex-drivers

    The computer is winning and the sooner the better.

    Humans are in general pretty crap drivers. Our reflexes are slow, we cannot concentrate for more than a few seconds and we simply don't care enough to pay attention to what we are doing.

    So, the obvious solution is to take the human out of the equation completely. Even if all the computers crashed every day it would still be a safer/faster/smoother/more economical/more environmentally friendly way of getting about.

    I ride motorcycles and whilst I would hate to not be able to ride on the roads any more I would willingly exchange that for the ability to not get cut up every damned day by some dipshit who can't seem to understand that driving is a SKILL, not a right, and that skill needs to be maintained and practiced.

    So, in the automotive world I say bring on our Digital Masters so I can sell my road bike and buy a trackday loony machine. :D

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    1. Andus McCoatover
      Reply Icon
      Windows

      Humans are in general pretty crap drivers

      Surely, you mean "Drivers are pretty crap humans".

      Better to take a pride in your driving, I'd think. But, sure, sell the road bike and buy..

      a horse! Problem solved in an instant!

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    2. Anonymous Coward
      Reply Icon
      Anonymous Coward

      Plus ça change...

      My first car was an old and very shabby Bentley (but still the best car I've ever owned). The owner's handbook prefaced the servicing instructions with "Have your driver carry out the following procedures ..."

      If I could ever afford a chauffeur, that's the way I would travel. Even so a skilled professional driver would be cheaper than a computer system able to give the same level of performance. The fully computer driven transport system exists, it's called the driverless train, tube, metro etc. Great stuff but not the same as a chauffeur driven car or driving a motorbike on the open road!

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    3. Anonymous Coward
      Reply Icon
      Anonymous Coward

      Yeah

      'ex-drivers' in the 'ex-parrot' sense by the sound of this article.

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  14. Mage Silver badge

    Off Button on Dashboad?

    Lucky you.

    Some are only reset if you disconnect the battery!

    Some can only be reset by diagnostics computer.

    Air bag warning on on car at least can only be reset by Power off, disconnection of sensor, repower, power off, reconnect, repower.

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  15. Tim

    Needs warning lights

    My Alfa did this to me once in Italy. It got confused when I braked hard with the nearside wheels on a gravelly verge while the others stayed on the road. It was kind enough to flash up some interesting lights on the dash, so I turned it off and back on again and all was well. Had your traction control/DSP/whatever light been flashing while you were driving along at 20mph on a straight city street you might have been inclined to try the same. I wonder why your car didn't do that; every so-equipped car I've driven puts up lights when those systems activate (which is quite often when you drive over ice or mud or gravel in the country; I'm not a tail-happy boy racer by any means.)

    Still, it's pretty bloody stupid to drive a broken car across a railway line, don't you think?

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  16. spanner
    IT Angle

    Not the computer

    You don't blame the car when you get pissed and have a crash. Why blame the computer when its does what the programmer tells it to do. Programmer error!

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    1. Ben Tasker
      Reply Icon
      Joke

      Computers don't kill people

      Programmers Kill People

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  17. Tom Melly
    WTF?

    More than one occasion?!?

    "That computer has legitimately saved my life on more than one occasion."

    This is the bit that scares me... I'm tempted to forgive it as hyperbole, but imagine the same statement about, say, smoke detectors saving one person's life on more than one occasion. I'd humbly suggest that they might be doing something wrong...

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    1. Notas Badoff
      Reply Icon
      Megaphone

      need more imagination

      Warrantied electronic device shorts while turned off, ignites stand, which ignites...

      Neighbor in next door apartment decides to light up his death.

      I really think quite a lot of the above commentators' lives have been far too dull so far. May you live in more interesting times...

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  18. The Fuzzy Wotnot

    Who's to blame? Rod Serling!!

    Anyone else seen the Twilight Zone episode "A Thing About Machines"? Man loses marbles and swears the machines are ganging up on him, only to have his car push him into a swimming pool where he drowns!

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  19. 27escape
    Thumb Down

    off and on again

    Is not the answer, its a cop out for coders not putting error handling code into their apps.

    Users expect off and on behaviour as it became common practice thanks to windows, now its phones, TVs etc that all have this assumption that it can be fixed by this process. Bugs don't get caught, issues can never be resolved.

    Additionally cars often keep their faults through the off and on process, there is no way to ask the computer to clear faults and try again unless you are a garage.

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  20. Pahhh
    Stop

    Dumb article...

    The conclusion of the article and the immediate assumption that the firmware was written by some spotty kid without proper testing is plain dumb. I have no doubt that car electronics dont go through the same rigurous testing and backup systems that planes do, but I'm fairly confident that they will be given a professional effort. Will it catch every event? No, but again seems that they dont with aircraft either.

    Modern car electronics by and large hugely improve safety. Both ABS and Traction control. The use of traction control is more subtle as at times it comes in without you realising (unless you like staring at the dashboard) and helps to keep the car straight. This of course dumbs down driving but thats actually not a bad thing.

    Now, saying all that, I do have my misgivings of traction control. I was in a situation with an Infinity G35 Coupe (its like a Nissan 350Z but 4 seats) where the traction control did something very unexpected. I was comming off a ramp on the highway and there was torrent of water going across the slipway. I eased off the power before I got to the stream expecting at the worse to aquaplane. What actually happened was that the car spun violently right and so harshly that I immediately hit the side wall making a pretty bad mess of the car.

    I am certain that the traction control detected one of the back wheels spinning and applied breaking causing the spin. I have over the years been in situations where there is a full or partial aquaplane and never experienced anything like it.

    On the flip slide my wife's Focus has traction control. I think it works spectacularly well. There are some performance cars that are undrivable without traction control.

    Conclusion: ABS / Traction control systems arent perfect but are better to have than not.

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  21. AndrueC Silver badge

    The ABS on my first Honda once got confused. I pulled to halt at a junction and stopped on some gravel. There was never any risk of me overshooting but it did trigger the ABS. The odd bit was that the ABS continued to operate even while I was stationary. Thankfully it stopped as soon as I released the brake pedal but it was odd.

    My current Honda is definitely at the mercy of a computer. VTEC and two spark plugs per cylinder with a variable delay between them. I think I read that the ECU is also responsible for gear ratio selection (it's a CVT). If the computer fails I doubt the engine will even fire - presumably it's just designed to declutch and expire at the roadside.

    On the plus side it's a Honda so the chances of any failure are pretty slim :)

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  22. Microphage

    Software crash nearly caused car crash

    Instead of designing the traction control and ABS in software how about doing it as a 'finite-state machine`

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite-state_machine#Software_applications

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    1. Vic
      Reply Icon

      > Instead of ...software how about doing it as a 'finite-state machine`

      Errr - you know a significant number of FSMs are built in software, right?

      Vic.

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    2. Anonymous Coward
      Reply Icon
      Anonymous Coward

      Automata tend to rely on having a relatively small set of clearly distinct inputs; it's hard to make them work well with analog data. Sure, you can divide it into various ranges, but that causes erratic behavior when the input oscillates on either side of a threshold. With enough effort you could probably make a finite state machine ABS controller, but I doubt it would be any more reliable or bug-free than any other implementation.

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  23. Robin Bradshaw
    Flame

    Mixed feelings

    I recently had the experience of the ECU in my bike deciding there was something wrong and cutting ignition and fuel to the rear cylinder resulting in a red light on the speedo and a suddenly very lumpy 325cc single cylinder engine.

    After trying the turn it off and on again technique I had to resort to taking the pillion seat of and flicking the switch (which i had added) to put it in dealer mode so i could see the fault code on the speedo's LCD display and look it up on the printout from the service manual i "found" on the internet that I also put under the seat, just to find out what was going on and work out if it was a fatal error or something i could drive home carefully with and fix.

    Turns out it had detected a problem with the spark on the number 2 cylinder and disabled it so you could limp home without incinerating the catalytic converter by pumping unburnt fuel into it.

    Im impressed that the ECU tried its best to fail reasonably gracefully, what im not impressed by is the manufacturers attempts to hide diagnostic information from me, if the ECU has a problem dont just light up a light on the dash to say something is wrong, tell me what thing the ECU thinks is broken so i can check it.

    Admittedly a motorcycle speedo is a bit of a sparse way to convey information but most modern cars have an lcd screen and builtin sat nav/media player/tv tuner nonsense installed would it kill them to display what error condition was presenting, hell integrate it into the sat nav and have it announce to the driver "Im sorry dave but i have detected there is no spark on cylinder 2 and plotted a route to the nearest dealer for you, I cannot let you go more than 30mph"

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  24. Bango Skank

    ah, my old S-III Landy and shiny Rangie

    didn't as much prevent me from getting stuck as much as enabling me to get stuck in far more interesting ways and in far more obscure places.

    While seatbelts and airbags have shown value, it isn't actually that clear that ABS has saved people on net.

    It seems to have just encouraged them to drive with less care.

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  26. jzlondon
    FAIL

    Units

    I couldn't focus on this article. All I could see were the dodgy conversions.

    12.4mph? Really? Are you sure it wasn't 12.3 or 12.56?

    Convert approximate numbers apprioriately.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_precision

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  27. IDoNotThinkSo

    Not just limp mode

    I had a VW that cut out completely due to an overheating relay. (Relay 109 if you must know). It provided power to the computer, so when it cut out the engine cut out completely, regardless of where you were (Motorway, wherever). There were no fault codes shown because the computer was switched off before it could raise one.

    Of course, once then ignition was off for a minute, it would start again and the car would behave as if nothing had happened.

    Fortunately there were plenty of others who had experienced this, and posted the solution online, so I replaced it with a new one (which, funnily enough, was much better built).

    Maybe cars should have redundant systems - be interesting to know what the extra expense might be.

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  28. Tatsky

    I don't need ABS

    OK, I got sick of reading all the comments along the lines of "I know how to drive, I understand over/under steer etc so I don't need all this ABS/traction control/lane detection" bollocks.

    Yeah you may be a good driver, but surely you feel a lot safer knowing that the other bunch of nupties around you driving 1.5 tonnes of metal have these safety features.

    I don't think a huge percentage of the population understand how to pump the brakes in the event of the wheels locking up/losing traction on ice etc. And knowing how to do this, and doing so in the event of hitting ice is a completely different matter.

    Oh, and regarding limp mode. I think most cars manufactured in the last 10-15 years has a limp home mode. It is there to protect the engine and mechanicals in the event of a failure being detected, which could cause further damage or loss of control if normal driving is continued.

    In the authors instance, as soon as the problem occurred they should have pulled over safely (to ensure their own safety, and the safety of other road users), and then worked to resolve the issue.

    That's my 2 bob/cents

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  29. Skoorb
    WTF?

    Iron Ring

    FYI, Probably only Canadians will get the Iron Ring reference.

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  30. SirDigalot

    my previous car had an interesting issue, i would be driving along and all of a sudden all the warning lights would come on and the speedo/tach would stop working, sometimes the central locking would try to lock also, i kept taking it back to the dealer, everytime they checked even on a test drive, they found nothing, i told them that it sounded like a short somewhere as the issue was very random, but was shrugged off with the 'punters know nothing' look while smiling and saying "yes sir certainly sir, would sir like a coffee, this way to the waiting room sir" luckily they kept giving me a rental for nothing, so i didn't really care, but after a few months of this they had the car for nearly a week, they replaces the BCM which they thought was bad, they were about to throw in the towl and give me a new car, when the 'technician' saw some sparking by the firewall... oh my someone had forgotten to put in a grommet, and hence a couple of wires were shorting causing all the issues! they replaced the loom (under warranty) and i got my car back, it was mentioned in passing that it was what was suggested a few months before by me, but the subject was changed quick!

    I bought a new car 2 months later, even though it suffered no problems after the fix...

    i like having traction control abs and eba as well as a number of other safety features, while i never really have call to use them, (TC in the winter in chicago/midwest, though not nescassary, is very useful though it was fun to turn it all off in the parking lot and have a jolly good romp on the snow) brake assist scared the crap out of me when it engaged, a large truck decided he wanted to be where i am and pulled over, no signal (at highway speeds) i hit the brake quickly, not very hard but firmly (luckily there was no one riding my a$$ - yes, i did check first) and the car loses ALOT of speed real quick no skidding either. so while the best intention os to be fully aware of everything, sometimes you are caught by suprise, besides, without all the cool things and warnings and buttons to push you cannot pretend to be james bond in a traffic jam.

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  31. Wensleydale Cheese

    "The only fix *is* a power cycle at that time."

    @Fastdruid

    But as someone who worked in the automotive industry once told me, embedded devices in cars are subject to harsh conditions, with extremes of hot and cold, vibrations etc and so must be programmed "very defensively" - that means to cope with the unexpected.

    Such an embedded system should be able to power cycle itself if it gets really confused.

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    1. Vic
      Reply Icon

      > Such an embedded system should be able to power cycle itself if it gets really confused.

      No, absolutely not.

      Embedded micros that get into a fault condition are *failed*. They should not be re-enabled until they have passed a further self-test.

      That means that they should latch a fault condition until a suitable time for re-test occurs. That usually means a re-start...

      Vic.

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      1. Evil Auditor Silver badge
        Reply Icon

        @Vic

        I beg to differ. If such a device fails, e.g. its own hardware or an essential sensor is broken, it should disable itself indeed. As someone else pointed out, it is better to run without ABS than with a broken one.

        On the other hand, there are critical devices whose software is resetted frequently, e.g. once a second, just in case it gets confused, i.e. crashed. If the device in Trevor's car had been designed like that, it would have long forgotten about the confusing inputs and worked properly again.

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        1. Wensleydale Cheese
          Reply Icon

          I should have said "reset" rather than "power cycle"

          @Evil Auditor

          "On the other hand, there are critical devices whose software is resetted frequently, e.g. once a second, just in case it gets confused, i.e. crashed. "

          Yes, that's what I was trying to explain.

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        2. Vic
          Reply Icon

          @Auditor

          > If such a device fails, e.g. its own hardware or an essential sensor is broken, it

          > should disable itself indeed.

          Errr - yes. That's what I said.

          What are you differing about?

          Vic.

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          1. Evil Auditor Silver badge
            Reply Icon

            @Vic & Wensleydale Cheese

            Hmm, maybe i misread one or the other bit... As we are all agreeing now, I wish you a great weekend!

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  32. 100113.1537
    Thumb Up

    Very timely commentary -

    - following the Air France crash story where at least one of the contributing factors seems to have been the pilots not realizing that the computer had switched off etc.

    Not sure what the best options are; I certainly don't take kindly to cars doing things without me telling them (I drive a manual, which is getting harder and harder to find in North America), but I accept that ABS brakes are good when you need to steer as well as brake. Risk/benefit issues are all about likelihood and severity of hazard so if the automation reduces the likelihood by a very big amount, on balance we can accept a higher severity of hazard.

    The whole issue of driver.pilot training seems to be the crux of the matter - learning in a fully computerized automatic vehicle (car or 'plane) can leave a lot out that hardly anyone is ever going to need, but will bite you on the ass big time if you suddenly do. For drivers, I doubt we will ever get everyone up to a high level, but for airline pilots - I think they really should know what to do when the autopilot switches itself off. And this comes back to the severity issue - a car getting out of control because the driver can't handle it in "manual" mode is an accident - a 'plane in this situation is a "tragedy". Non-quantitative terms, but I am sure you get my drift.

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  33. Local Group
    Childcatcher

    More than one occasion (2)

    "That computer has legitimately saved my life on more than one occasion."

    I wouldn't be blabbing this all over town, if I were you. Your insurance company will raise your premium or cancel you altogether.

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  34. mark fernandes
    Mushroom

    Obligatory Big Bang Comment

    "Your check engine light is on..."

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