back to article Dell bars Win 7 refunds from Linux lovers

Dell has told a Linux-loving Reg reader that he can't receive a refund on the copy of Windows 7 that shipped with his new Dell netbook because it was bundled with the machine for "free". In October, another Reg reader succeeded in gaining a $115 (£70.34) refund from the computer maker after he rejected the licence for …

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Good hardware suppliers

Is there a list of hardware suppliers anywhere that are known to comply with the EULA and offer refunds to customers refusing the Windows license? Information on suppliers who do offer it would be very useful. Armed with this information, then the customers and market can decide. I suspect Dell is not alone in acting like this?

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Linux

Sure there is

Here's the list:

And there you have it. A complete list of computer manufacturers who fulfill their legal obligation to refund the cost of Windows without getting the courts involved. The good news is that the courts consistently side with the consumers on these cases.

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Consumer Disobedience

Maybe a grassroots campaign of ordering PC's, rejecting the EULAs and returning the shit to Dell might wake them up to reality.

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Stop

Just ask for a laptop with no OS !?

I'm on my fourth Dell laptop each time I dealt with business sales and asked for no OS. I guess if you're after a 'home' machine then it may be more difficult but I've always found them happy to supply Latitudes with no OS.

See I have an MSDN and MS Action Pack subscription so have no need to buy another copy of the OS.

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Business customers only

My workplace gets them no-OS too as we have a site licence for MS stuff. Trying to get this as a normal consumer is not possible AFAIK.

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FAIL

Business!

AND you have MSDN, Dell probably have a clause for that in their contract with MS.

Come back when, as a consumer, you can buy a Dell PC that is not infested with Windows. And I do not count their crapppy Ubuntu netbook as a viable option.

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WTF?

Monopolistic?

I thought that computer manufacturers were legally forbidden from bundling Windows on a PC without the option of a refund because Windows was a monopoly OS and the bundling allowed shady back-room deals from Microsoft and prevented healthy competition.

I though that was why the line about returning the OS for a refund was in the EULA.

Anyone know for sure?

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WTF?

why?

Why are you buying a Dell?

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Joke

cough up dell...

just sent the free-tard his £0.00 cheque!

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Yes, there is value in it. Precisely £0. So nothing to refund.

Of course if Dell say they're offering a PC for £200 with Windows 7 Home Premium, 2GB RAM, 160GB Drive, DVD-RW Drive, Mini Tower Case etc and they don't offer an option to "remove" Windows (which they normally don't) then there is effectively no direct cost for Windows. If the PC can be readily ordered with no windows then it is a little different since there is a clear "component part" to it.

If it cannot be shown that the vendor of a product offers is a standalone option (in this sense Dell is the vendor for windows in the same way they're the vendor for the memory, drive etc and offering it on a "all or nothing" basis) it is in fact inclusive (not free), but there is £0 value attached, and therefore nothing to refund.

There is case law on this.

Of course if you call Dell and ask them to ship you a PC sans windows, they will, and do. What this gets you in reduced price or not is pretty much down to your bartering skills and sales chimp.

However more importantly, if you just avoid buying Dell (never a bad thing) and buy hardware from someone else that doesn't bundle it, then it no longer matters. The key here is not buying a machine with something you don't want. There is choice, go elsewhere.

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Linux

Tied down

It gets even worse than that. Dell systems are actually _tied down_ to Windows. See that Media home button? It boots into a stripped down copy of the NT kernel with Cyberlink PowerCinema sloppily slapped onto it that resides on a separate partition. Want to make it boot into Splashtop instead? It's theorically possible, but afaik no one has done it.

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Gold badge

Windows has a direct cost

"Of course if Dell say they're offering a PC for £200 with Windows 7 Home Premium, 2GB RAM, 160GB Drive, DVD-RW Drive, Mini Tower Case etc and they don't offer an option to "remove" Windows (which they normally don't) then there is effectively no direct cost for Windows."

Yes there is. Look up another model where they have an option of Windows or not, and do the math. That's the "value" of Windows. I mean, if some models let you order them with a no drive, a CD drive, or a DVD drive, and a second model only ships with a DVD it doesn't mean the DVD is worth $0 -- it's easy to compare the price of a "no CD" and a "DVD" model and see what the DVD drive is worth. The difference being, Windows has a EULA requiring Dell to take Windows back and refund it while the DVD drive doesn't.

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Silver badge

Hmm

Not sure you can get away with this if you had to pay MS for the license. If Dell made the OS then this would indeed be the case. However they don't, they pay Microsoft for it and so a price/value of £0 cannot be attributed. If MS EULA says the cost will be refunded then Dell must refund the cost. They didn't pay zero to MS hence money is due.

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RE: Yes, there is value in it. Precisely £0. So nothing to refund.

Yep, windows is worth £0 - it's rubbish.

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FAIL

No more recommending Dell until this is reversed

I was planning on assisting a friend in purchasing a Dell laptop online tomorrow. Not any more. Maybe they just saved themselves from having to give a refund for a bloated, overpriced malware magnet. But they've lost a sale of a laptop tomorrow, and many recommendations (and personal purchases) I might have made in the future.

Dell FAIL.

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WTF?

I'm waiting for my FREE™ Windows copy

Nope. Still nothing.

Don't really want one, tbh.

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Linux

No Dell for me or any brand

I just selected what Motherboard , PSU, CPU etc I want in the white box and my trusty computer man popped them in for me.

I don't anticipate ever buying anything from Dell.

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Pint

Bundling & Vendor Selection

As 100+ comments on this article have stated over and over again, the PC vendor is different than the OS vendor.

A decent analogy is an automobile. Hundreds of separate vendors are involved in building and supplying all the components of a car but at the end of the day you are paying for the complete car, not its individual components. You are paying for all the engineering, process analysis, etc... that goes into the complete package (bundle) you purchased. For example I absolutely despise the side mirrors on my car but I don't expect to be able to remove them and request a refund from Audi. I bought a pre-configured car, if a part of that car fails then I expect the vendor to make it right, but I don't expect them to refund my money because a specific part of the bundle wasn't what I wanted.

If you don't like the bundle a vendor is offering then choose another vendor. That's what purchasing and customer education is all about. Pick the vendor that offers the product you want but don't expect someone to change their entire business because you are unhappy with a single component of your bundled purchase.

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A very bad analogy

Audi will have designed your mirrors and written a spec on how they should work. A contractor (or Audi) will then have made them, and the components that make them up. Same goes for every single piece of the car. Audi write the spec and either make the part, someone else makes the part or someone finds an off-the-shelf part that meets the spec.

This is not the same with PCs.

MS are demanding that you have their OS on any PC. Beyond a few very small players, you cannot buy a PC from an OEM without Windows. If I go from Dell to HP to Toshiba to Sony to Acer, I am forced to take Windows. In the car world if I hate Ford engines (say) I can buy Toyota and get a Toyota engine. You just cannot do this in the PC marketplace (business accounts are different, we're not talking about them). It is not possible to choose another vendor and body-swerve the MS Tax.

If you want to stick with the car analogy, consider the radio. There's usually a choice, heck BMW used to spec sans radio! That's the kind of choice we want and need in the PC marketplace.

You only get choice from the minor vendors (e.g Morgan in the car world). They can and will meet whatever spec you desire, but you may have to pay a higher price or suffer some inconvenience (less support, less locations, longer delivery time etc etc; not always the case though).

Dell are, IMHO, wrong not to offer the refund.

MS are IMHO wrong to force vendors to sell a PC with Windows, vendors should be allowed the "no OS".

People who bash others for wanting the FREEDOM TO CHOOSE are wrong.

The USA does not have the balls to step-up to this, so let's see the EU do what's right for consumers and ensure a fairer marketplace.

Cue the MS shills...

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Anonymous Coward

Using the force

"MS are IMHO wrong to force vendors to sell a PC with Windows, vendors should be allowed the "no OS"."

Of course, ask Microsoft and they'll tell you that they're not forcing anyone. Whether this is technically true or not - it's very possible that they threaten vendors with sanctions if they don't ship Windows on everything - they presumably have the refund clause to avoid getting into some very hot regulatory water, revisiting old antitrust allegations:

http://www.justice.gov/atr/cases/f3800/msjudgex.htm#iiih

But this is part of a wider scam: Microsoft are off the hook because their EULA tells you that they supposedly aren't imposing their product on you; Dell and friends are off the hook because they can pretend that they can't read the small print. And all the narrow-minded apologists will fail to see this until, one day, someone will pull a similar trick on them. Then they'll finally get it.

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Shill schmill

No one is restricting your right to choose.

What you are objecting to is not getting something non-standard for as low a price as something standard.

If Dell or Microsoft are not meeting their obligations then they can be made to come into line - this is a matter of law not principle.

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Thumb Up

This is why I switched to a Mac 10 years ago.

I don't want to support Microsoft. My only option (other than building it myself) was to go Apple.

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Anonymous Coward

PC Vendor is the OS Vendor....

"As 100+ comments on this article have stated over and over again, the PC vendor is different than the OS vendor."

Ah but the PC vendor IS the OS vendor too, you see Dell is responsible for all technical support for the Dell version of Windows that is installed on their machines. All Dell really has to do is refund the value of the O/S (which might actually be a paltry sum on a per-unit basis) and have the customer acknowledge that software technical support is not available to him.

The car analog doesn't work.

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Terminator

Small claims court?

Since the amount at stake is probably under the limit for going to small claims court, that might be a useful route to follow in countries that have such courts. It's supposed to be lawyer-free, btw.

The amusing sequel comes when Dell ignores the judgement you will get against them; you then sic the bailiffs on them and have a truck or an office building seized to be auctioned off to pay the judgement.

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winding up order

AFAICR Wrong! - when they ignore the SCC judgement you move on to a winding up order.

You can ask the court to infer by thier failure to pay the judgement that they cannot pay and as such should be wound up. A winding up order is issued and they have so many days to pay you and prove they have done so before their bank accounts are frozen and receivers are called in.

In the case of the gent who took a certain mobile phone company to court to get his 50UKP back, he decided that just after the winding up order was instigated was a good time to go on holiday (stopped answering the door and phone). Note that simply posting a cheque does not satify the court they have paid thier debt - they have to get your signature to that effect.

He said it is so much fun to have a nast corp running aroud like a headless chickens trying to track you down for your signature...

Jacqui

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Go

Online claim...

It is indeed very easy to make a 'small claim' online in the UK - simply go here...

http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/onlineservices/mcol/index.htm

It only costs £25 and is indeed lawyer free, in most cases where there is any reasonable basis for a claim (as there most certainly is here) the defendant will either fail to respond in time (meaning you win, known as judgement by default) or they will settle without prejuice before it goes to an actual court where theyd be forced to pay lawyers and turn up in person.

I used this method to get a refund out of PayPal (they settled without prejudice for mu full claimed amount + my £25 costs) when a Hong Kong seller refused to refund a knock-off item and PayPal (as usual) tried to wriggle out of honouring their guarantee.

(If the defendant is large company then getting your lolly should be no problem, however, it could be considerably more difficult to actually get a resulting court order enforced against a private individual or sole trader for example.)

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Linux

Other brands to consider

I recently bought (and typing on it now) a new mini-notebook for US$100 cheaper as it came pre-installed with Ubuntu 8.10. It's an Olevia X13D-815HK with 2G ram, 250G HD, dual-core AMD L325 cpu.

I'm absolutely delighted with it. With my older notebook, I could not get function-key compatibility with my BenQ projector. Now, I can through the HDMI link. I can view my desktop + video at the same time on the notebook and via the projector at the same time. With XP in my older notebook, I could view a video on the projector only when the notebook LCD was off.

Search for brands that offer you a choice of Linux or Windows. This is better because you know for sure that the hardware will be fully compatible with Linux. I had a bit of bother with the wi-fi because it was a newer version to the driver included in Ubuntu. However, a search of the Ubuntu forums directed me to a PPA that had the driver. Ever since then, it has been plain sailing.

More and more brands from Asia are including Linux in their offerings.

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Stop

What your language!

"recently tried the same Windows rejection trick."

Excuse me, this isn't some sort of scam to get free money, it's a legally supported move by a consumer!

Come on, better choice of words next time eh?

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Naked Computers

For people who like to say “No Thanks!” to proprietary operating systems

http://nakedcomputers.org/

These guys will get my next domestic order!

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Go

You build your own laptops?

Colour me impressed.

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1337

I'm geeky enough to build my own, and most of the PC's I've owned have been made by, case n'all. But I haven't done for a few years now, as its simply cheaper to buy them already assembled.

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Stop

Oh dear! Geek attack from the basement!

Listen Mr Know-it-All, some off us happen to like realtively good design and pukka hardware in one box, if the option is legally available to dump the MS tax, then so be it.

I use to build all my own kit, but then got a life and let me tell you, after a hard day slaving over other people's PCs and assorted software/hardware problems at work, I simply want to go home and chill by switching on hardware that works without fault and and O/S that doesn't cack itself at the sight of a new device!

I know quite a few Windows and Unix admins, very talented ones, where I am, that swear by Macs and OSX for home use, even using Apple laptops in preference to their tools-of-trade, the reason? Same as quoted above, we need to switch off and use kit that actually works, if not then have someone to shout ourselves, just like our users do to us!

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Cheaper

Its simply cheaper to buy them already assembled *with Windows bundled*.

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Anonymous Coward

Take a chill pill.

If the Genious customer had ordered a netbook with Linux, he wouldn't have to get the Windows version. Dell has that option available, the Ubuntu version is £199, the Win7 is £229, but once you order Windows, that's what you get. How hard is that to understand?

He's just a cheap bstrd trying to cut some cost....

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Thumb Up

I kind of agree...

Maybe he thought instead of saving £30 he could buy it with Se7en and get the full OS price refunded, I assuming that he was going to return the Windows key stuck on the bottom of his machine in an "as new" condition as well? Dell (and every other OEM) get very little on every sale of "OS" included if they are going to process a return for something that wasn't even priced separately any profit made would be gone, can't blame them really, that said, maybe if there's more demand for "bare machines" then they'll start doing them, but I guess the demand isn't significant enopugh yet.

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Anonymous Coward

Check the one to the right..

It has Ubuntu, no?

And is cheaper, right?

http://www1.euro.dell.com/uk/en/home/Laptops/laptop-inspiron-10/pd.aspx?refid=laptop-inspiron-10&s=dhs&cs=ukdhs1

Problem solved then?

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Happy

Shock story

Man buys computer, man doesn't want to use windows.

Maybe sanity is contagous and soon the curse of windows will be over. Here's hoping!

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Linux

My conversation with Dell last month

16:04:28 Customer Mike Imrie Initial Question/Comment: Choice of operating system

16:05:03 System You are now being connected to an agent. Thank you for using Dell Chat

16:05:03 System System Connected with Bhanu_Koduru

16:05:08 Customer Mike Imrie Hi

16:05:18 Agent Bhanu_Koduru Hi

16:05:28 Agent Bhanu_Koduru Thank you for contacting Dell Sales Chat. This is Bhanu, your Sales Advisor. Please give me a moment while I review your query. In order to Help you better can you provide me with your email address and Telephone number in case we get Disconnected I can call

16:05:33 Agent Bhanu_Koduru How can I help you

16:06:08 Customer Mike Imrie I'm a proud owner of a number of Dell systems, and each of them runs Linux. My question is, how do I buy a system from you, without paying for software I don't want?

16:07:28 Agent Bhanu_Koduru Can I know your requirement and which machine are you looking at ?

16:08:26 Customer Mike Imrie Anything. I have needs for mini-netbooks, laptops and desktop systems.

16:09:08 Agent Bhanu_Koduru Ok.......Let me inform you that we cannot degrade any system

16:09:25 Customer Mike Imrie degrade?

16:10:23 Agent Bhanu_Koduru means if any comes with the specs online we cannot take it out any specs

16:10:48 Customer Mike Imrie So, which systems do you sell that don't come with Windows?

16:11:18 Agent Bhanu_Koduru We dont have any machine without OS

16:11:44 Customer Mike Imrie Which systems do you sell that come with a Linux OS?

16:12:43 Agent Bhanu_Koduru Let me check for you

16:18:14 Agent Bhanu_Koduru We dont have any machine with the Linux OS

16:18:34 Customer Mike Imrie er, what about http://www1.euro.dell.com/uk/en/home/Laptops/ct.aspx?refid=notebooks&s=dhs&cs=ukdhs#subcats=&navla=&a=65235~0~399477

16:20:14 Agent Bhanu_Koduru Do you want the mini netbook ?

16:20:45 Customer Mike Imrie I want to know what other products you sell with a Linux (Ubuntu) OS

16:21:19 Agent Bhanu_Koduru

Bhanu_Koduru pushes page, http://configure.euro.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?cs=ukdhs1&kc=yy&oc=N00B1001&x=0&y=0

16:21:29 Agent Bhanu_Koduru Only this netbook has the Linux OS

16:21:57 Customer Mike Imrie Why no other systems?

16:23:14 Agent Bhanu_Koduru It is not available at the moment although it is mentioned on the technical specs of Precisions Desktops

16:23:33 Customer Mike Imrie OK, Thanks for your help.

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Anonymous Coward

Free?

Does this mean that I can contact Dell and get a free copy of Windows 7?

If not then it's part of the cost and can be removed / refunded as necessary - as per the EULA.

Of course, if they're saying the licence doesn't apply and they're authorised to make such statements on behalf of Microsoft then that's a whole different ball game...........

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Anonymous Coward

No!

"If not then it's part of the cost and can be removed / refunded as necessary - as per the EULA"

The EULA only says that not agreeing to it and returning the software unused is a valid case for a refund, i.e. Microsoft will refund the reseller for it as if it were faulty. Dell however CAN and apparently DO choose not to refund separate components of their products just the whole product, i.e. if you do not agree to the EULA Dell can choose to refund the whole item on its return and still abide by the EULA.

They would only be breaking the law if they refused to refund the software license AND refused to accept not agreeing with the EULA as a reason to refund the whole item.

In terms of the cost they are simply saying there is no associated cost with the license i.e. they are not going to tell you the component cost of each system and work out how much to refund, i.e. what is the processor in the same system worth on any particularly day? depends on lots of things right, and Dell would therefore not associate a cost to that either for a particular system at any time. That is what they mean, they look at the total cost of building a machine and sell it at the appropriate price, end of story.

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Thumb Down

No!

No more word games.

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The OS should be an option on all Dell Computers

If Dell does not want to refund peoples and deal with this angst Dell should start offering Linux and naked system (No OS) for every computer configuration they have and make it cheaper. If you make the OS an option and show the real cost of Windows peoples who pick Windows would have done so by choice. You will not have to waste customers supports paid time on dealing with Linux users who want their refund! Off course MS would freak out but you're freaking Dell! Microsoft is suppose to be your bitch not the other way around!

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Stop

And this would be the board discussion....

We've decided to sell bare metal machines as an option now, our Desktop machines cost £500 with windows 7 and we think it would be good to let customers de -select the OS...

<some time later>

Yes we've done it, and now the no OS price has been held to £500 and the Win 7 price is £530, a success I think....

<blank looks from rest of board>

Although we've had to increase our stock storage and picking, re-negotiate with our disk supplier to provide imagaged and non imaged disks, increased and re-trained sales and technical staff, accepted extra returns from people who didn't know they needed an OS or couldn't install anything else due to lack of technical knowlege or the face that netbooks don't come with CD drives changed our testing for OS and non OS machines we've really kept the costs down, oh and of course now we have been recieving complaints that we don't host all the Linux drivers for the hardware and most of the non OS machines end up with Linux installed our customers expect us to host the drivers and updates.

Windows may not be everybodies favourite, but defaulting to the most popular operating system and not offering another (nor even none) is cheaper for Dell and therefore cheaper for the customer, the reason why Dell (and other large manufacturers) can sell a lot of kit for a reasonable price is purely down to "box shifting" economies of scale, selling bare machines (as well) would cost more overall.

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Anonymous Coward

Economies of scale?

"Although we've had to increase our stock storage and picking, re-negotiate with our disk supplier to provide imagaged and non imaged disks, increased and re-trained sales and technical staff, accepted extra returns from people who didn't know they needed an OS or couldn't install anything else due to lack of technical knowlege or the face that netbooks don't come with CD drives changed our testing for OS and non OS machines we've really kept the costs down, oh and of course now we have been recieving complaints that we don't host all the Linux drivers for the hardware and most of the non OS machines end up with Linux installed our customers expect us to host the drivers and updates."

Although there are some valid points about logistics, it isn't always the case (or may not even be the case generally) that the OS is ready to use upon first power-up. Thus, for machines with CD/DVD/USB ports, it's entirely possible to supply boot media and not image any disks at all. As for updates and support, vendors could quite easily nominate others to provide that, just as they do right now with Microsoft.

"Windows may not be everybodies favourite, but defaulting to the most popular operating system and not offering another (nor even none) is cheaper for Dell and therefore cheaper for the customer, the reason why Dell (and other large manufacturers) can sell a lot of kit for a reasonable price is purely down to "box shifting" economies of scale, selling bare machines (as well) would cost more overall."

Sure, testing the kit with Windows and knowing it works allows them to ship the same kit in large quantities, but you only have to do that with one instance of that kit, and then the price of verification dissolves into near nothing as the volume increases. You're implying that testing some Linux variants is either obscenely expensive that it significantly affects the per-unit cost, or that such testing somehow stops being effective when some random number of units is exceeded, which is absurd. And you're also suggesting that manufacturers are adding super secret sauce when most of them are just using what Intel and partners suggest, much of which probably won't involve a serious amount of additional verification work, and most of which can probably be contracted out to the people doing the real engineering.

The perverse thing about arguments claiming that it's too complicated for vendors can be trivially undermined by observing that for various enterprise models, Dell already supports Linux. Such arguments, just like those which assert that no-one is really being harmed or that "it's only a few quid", are unfortunate reminders that many people can't be bothered to think further than their own immediate personal convenience, happily throwing issues like choice or competition overboard if they can get what *they* want.

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Anonymous Coward

This would be the case in a perfect world

This would be/should be so but a little bird in my head tweats that the contract between Dell and M$ is quite handcuffing, for Dell (something to the effect you will sell only our crapware, except for a couple of crippled models, and they WILL be more expensive than the Crapware laden kit; violate this and you can kiss your OEM windows pricing goodbye) and then hiding it under that favorite device of all mega-corps, and NDA agreement.

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Grenade

Re: Economies of scale?

You weren't meant to take my board discussion as anything but an illustration, I'll summarise;

Adding a new option, piece of kit, configuration will always increase the cost of logistics, while it may be counter-intuitive to think that a "bare" machine will cost the same or more, you have to consider the size of the market (i.e. the profit) of holding an extra product line (for each machine). Dell have chosen to use pre-imaged disks, this is obviously a financial benefit to them, they buy the disks with the image on (for only a few cents per unit more), no need to distibute media, this may only save a few $, but no packing, picking, stock all adds up.

There's also the indirect costs, Dell will be expected to hold Linux drivers, expected to answer questions about installing on to a bare machine, they *could* refuse, but what if the USB, network card, screen driver doesn't work, is it the driver or is it the hardware, they will be expected to have an answer or expect a return, look how good their Windows support is, put in a tag reference and you get a list of drivers for optimum stability (for your exact machine), should they do this for Linux or say "you're on your own, no warranty for bare machines", either way they couldn't win.

Finally, how much do they actually make on an OS? $10, $20, $50 I suspect (although don't know) that they make very little on each licence, which brings us all the way back to the point, would the extra cost of supplying another line (and all it's associated costs) be more than the the money they make on selling a machine with Windows?

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why most manufacturers don't sell 'naked' systems

1. They cant test the assembled system that easily before shipping.

2. Support for bleeding edge hardware in Linux is flaky at best.

3. Customers would not be happy to receive hardware that is dead on arrival because it wasn't burn-in tested.

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We be burn in

You don't need an OS installed to burn in, you can just use WinPE or linux from a bootable CD or USB stick and run the burn in tools.

Or in Dells case, hit the diagnostics button on POST and run the extended tests built right into it.

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Anonymous Coward

lolfud

Actually, there are plenty of bootable tools for "burn-in testing" a system, if Dell even does test each and every one of their systems before shipping, which I sincerely doubt. So you're talking complete FUD on those two counts.

As for "bleeding edge hardware" in a Dell. Don't make me laugh.

The real reason they don't sell computers without an OS is because Microsoft would spank them silly.

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