back to article Brexit: UK will be disconnected from EU databases after 2020

The UK will be locked out of European Union databases once the Brexit transition period ends – but the UK is hoping a data adequacy decision will be adopted by the end of 2020. The Withdrawal Agreement (PDF), published late last night and testing printers across the nation this morning, runs to almost 600 pages and has led to …

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                                                  1. codejunky Silver badge

                                                    Re: Ah, the UK gov

                                                    @ Adair

                                                    "which makes the most wonderful scapegoat, right on our doorstep."

                                                    So you should be cheering brexit. We leave and therefore wont have the scapegoat to blame, we will need to sort our own government out and we all all happy.

                                                    "and in a way that engages the support of a decent majority of the population (something at least approaching a consensus)"

                                                    Something we never had for joining but had 3 votes out of 3 to have a choice and leave. There is absolutely no consensus to remain by a long shot.

                                                    "so that the nay sayers have to acknowledge that the nation as a whole generally supports the move."

                                                    That is called democracy, I agree they need to acknowledge the 3 votes (2 GE 1 referendum), they dont.

                                                    "I think that as things stand we are probably better off remaining in, and getting our own house in order"

                                                    Which wont happen as you say there is a scapegoat. One that inflicts its own damage.

                                                    "which on all the evidence to date is doing nothing but harm to this country."

                                                    That would be the FUD I assume? The evidence is actually pretty good for voting leave so far. The argument that brexit was causing harm lost its legs pretty quickly. Now its will cause harm in the future. Just as the 2 recessions predicted for brexit didnt happen and now its some point in the future (aka blame the next business cycle recession on brexit).

                                                    1. Adair

                                                      Re: Ah, the UK gov

                                                      Obviously the EU will remain a scapegoat, in or out, as long as UK politicians and members of yhe public refuse to take responsibility for the internal problems we face.

                                                      As it happens the vote to become members of the EEC, etc. was nothing like the farce of the Brexit referendum. In fact in comparison it wad a model of probity and gave a more usable outcome.

                                                      But the EU is not the issue, as far as I am concerned. The issue is our failure ad a nation to govern ourselves properly, such that we end up having to deal with a failure of good governance called 'Brexit'.

                                        1. Roland6 Silver badge

                                          Re: Ah, the UK gov

                                          @Codejunky re: "The only party with a plan to leave was Farages UKIP."

                                          I suggest you reread that 'plan'; in light of what we now know. I think you will find that with leaving the EU the devil is in the detail - something that is missing from ALL Brexit plans, including UKIPs...

                                          1. codejunky Silver badge

                                            Re: Ah, the UK gov

                                            @ Silver badge

                                            "I suggest you reread that 'plan'; in light of what we now know."

                                            It is still the only one with a plan. It was to leave, brexit, be out of the EU. It didnt have the uncertainty attached as we have now with a gov trying to remain in all but name. The country would be leaving and looking out to the world and the EU's worst fears of the UK using its competitive advantage would be reality.

                                            Of course we can only look hypothetically at how it would have gone but it seems to have avoided all of the problems we face currently.

                                            1. Roland6 Silver badge

                                              Re: Ah, the UK gov

                                              @Codejunky

                                              I grant you that UKIP were and still are the only group to publish a plan, which whilst I'm not so sure it would have avoided all the problems we currently face, it was, at least, definite about where the UK would be on 30-Mar-2019.

                                              >a gov trying to remain in all but name.

                                              Funnily I don't see that, May seems committed to achieving Brexit, but without the total break in trade relations that is part and parcel of the UKIP plan; remember everything in the UKIP plan about the WTO can be regarded as being rubbish as it is based on a flawed understanding of how the WTO operates.

                                              What is going to be interesting in the coming weeks, is given the events of yesterday, where Mogg, Davies and other prominent Brexiteers publicly demonstrated the extent of both their delusions and support (and more importantly being ridiculed in the Brexit leaning media), is whether May has the strength (or can be forced) to toss Brexit altogether... :¬

                                              It looks as if this really will run to the last minute, however, might be advisable to save some popcorn for the encores...

                                              1. codejunky Silver badge

                                                Re: Ah, the UK gov

                                                @ Roland6

                                                "at least, definite about where the UK would be on 30-Mar-2019."

                                                This does seem to be the biggest sticking point with our currency which swings with gov revelations and EU releases.

                                                "remember everything in the UKIP plan about the WTO can be regarded as being rubbish as it is based on a flawed understanding of how the WTO operates."

                                                In what way? I know Clegg got it wrong and a few others claiming we had to charge maximum WTO tariffs or something. We are already a member in our own right too.

                                                "It looks as if this really will run to the last minute, however, might be advisable to save some popcorn for the encores..."

                                                Tbh this was expected. Apparently the EU have form for last minute but I dont credit our gov with much better (as above the current uncertainty). I must admit to slightly harbouring the hope that May would be kicked out and a hard brexitter taking charge. But since we are practically at the end of the negotiation period this is a bit late for a hail mary.

                                                1. Roland6 Silver badge

                                                  Re: Ah, the UK gov

                                                  I must admit to slightly harbouring the hope that May would be kicked out and a hard brexitter taking charge.

                                                  Yes it is a shame we haven't had the benefit of seeing the hard Brexiteers actually having to walk-their-talk, although I anticipate they will somehow find a way blame the EU on why they are incapable of reaching an agreement between themselves over which Brexit they actually want; I mean it is so unreasonable for the EU to expect them to actually know and articulate just what exactly it is that they want and how it can be realised in the real world.

                                                  I think yesterday's Mogg event was the first time the media started to appreciate just how deluded the leading hard Brexiteers are... Remember Mogg wants a hard Brexit, yet is too scared to publish his plan because he knows it contains more holes than a sieve, he is also too scared to put himself forward as a candidate to replace T.May...

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: Ah, the UK gov

                "I don't see democracy anywhere."

                The danger is that a divided country will end up electing any populist who promises they have simple solutions to all issues and will Make the UK Great Again. Whether that would be extreme right or extreme left has become a moot point.

            1. strum Silver badge

              Re: Ah, the UK gov

              >And think about democracy as you do.

              Don't just think about it - do it. Democracy isn't a one-time offer.

              1. codejunky Silver badge

                Re: Ah, the UK gov

                @ strum

                "Don't just think about it - do it. Democracy isn't a one-time offer."

                Hell yeah well said. Now tell that to those who want a 4th vote because they lost the last 3.

          1. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

            Re: Ah, the UK gov

            Most of us are just sick of the whole fucking mess we're in now, and want it sorted out

            And it's treally sad that Brexit is being seen as the only way to do that. If the self-serving politicians in Brussels could actually see past the end of their own ambitions, and stopped assuming that the only solution for Europe was centralized control with them in charge, we'd never have needed Brexit.

            I can't help but feel that the next EU elections are going to be quite a wake-up call.

        1. keithpeter
          Coat

          Re: Ah, the UK gov

          "What the British want is a 'clean break'"

          Thanks to David Cameron's two box vote we actually don't know that at all.

          We do know that the vote was so close that it was within the sampling error of most opinion polls, and we do know that sentiment has shifted somewhat since, but not by a definitive amount.

          I suspect that sentiment will continue to shift as the consequences of leaving the EU become clearer over the next few months.

          Coat: off out now

        2. strum Silver badge

          Re: Ah, the UK gov

          >Unfortunately no brexiteer has been allowed near the leave process.

          Except for Boris Johnson & David Davis & Dominic Raab - Brexiteers all.

          The odd thing is that Brexiteers seem oblivious to how cynically they are being manipulated.

          1. eric halfabe

            Re: Ah, the UK gov

            ">Unfortunately no brexiteer has been allowed near the leave process.

            Except for Boris Johnson & David Davis & Dominic Raab - Brexiteers all."

            Except they weren't. Boris was FS. David Davis was involved in negotiations but that wasn't the leave process at all. The leave process was being conducted by Oily Robins in secret and the results of that were handed to the cabinet at Chequers where they were told to agree to the dog's breakfast or walk home. As for Raab he ended up being Oily Robins dispatch clerk shuttling back and forth to Brussels with Oily's latest sellout. Raab finally resigned when he realised that what had been agreed about the backstop was not actually in the printed draft that wasn't available until yesterday. After the cabinet had been in to see May one by one and told they had to support it before they could read the nearly 600 pages.

        3. Glen 1 Bronze badge

          Re: Ah, the UK gov

          >Unfortunately no brexiteer has been allowed near the leave process.

          Ummm You mean like David Davis?

          Who threw a tantrum and quit when the EU decided they didn't want the tail wagging the dog?

          Or Dominic Raab?

          Resigned over a deal *HE* helped put together?

          The problem is that while we do indeed sell more as a % of our trade, its note the same % of *THEIRS* and besides, with the EU Deal with Japan, the EU now has a zero tariff deal with an economy WAAAYYY bigger than ours. The Brexiteers vastly overestimate our importance.

          As for the "rest of the world" we already have trade deals with 60 other countries... because the EU has those deals. The UK will no longer have them after brexit.

    1. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

      Re: Ah, the UK gov

      Still pretending they can move out but keep the keys.

      Actually given the current "Brexit means Remain" agreement that May wants us to sign up to, it's more like we hand over the keys but want to keep sleeping in the hallway.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Ah, the UK gov

        It seem more like "hand over the keys, you'll sleep in the garage and you can't but a new house until we say you can ... and in the meatime you need to pay your part of the bills"

        1. The Nazz Silver badge

          Re: Ah, the UK gov

          Gary Desmond : The Divorce Song, parody of Tammy Wynette

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5GEJxJ06P4

          "we'll split the house, i'll have the in, you can have the f*****g outside"

      2. Rich 11 Silver badge

        Re: Ah, the UK gov

        Actually given the current "Brexit means Remain" agreement that May wants us to sign up to, it's more like we hand over the keys but want to keep sleeping in the hallway.

        This was inevitable, unless we want to fuck the economy into the toilet. Some of you may not care that the NHS gets underfunded and understaffed yet further, or schools once more lose the capacity to provide non-leaking roofs, but you know damn well that you are in the minority.

        It would of course be easier simply not to leave the EU. Anyone who wants to rant about 'faceless bureaucrats' or 'unelected MEPs' or 'shiftless immigrants' in response is now welcome to do so. If you haven't learned anything about such basic aspects of reality by now, you never will. And the rest of us will laugh at you.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Ah, the UK gov

          "'faceless bureaucrats"

          Someone remind me about how many thousands of more civil servants the government has said it will need to employ due to Brexit. This article says 11,000 and counting.

          IIRC even the current size of the UK bureaucracy far exceeds that of the EU administration.

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            1. This post has been deleted by its author

          2. Lars Silver badge
            Happy

            Re: Ah, the UK gov

            "IIRC even the current size of the UK bureaucracy far exceeds that of the EU administration.".

            About 33.000 for the EU and +400.000 for the UK.

            "Bureaucrats", often called civil servants. are mostly hired and some amount of knowledge is demanded, not quite so with politicians.

            (take Raab who suddenly found out about the traffic across the channel)

        2. Clunking Fist Bronze badge

          Re: Ah, the UK gov

          "This was inevitable, unless we want to fuck the economy into the toilet. "

          The EU exports more to the UK than the UK sells to the EU. I think you (and Teresa May and other Remoaners) keep forgetting that. You also forget that most countries in the world are outside the EU, yet seem to get by just fine.

          PS No one is ranting about "un-elected MEPS" as all Brexiteers know that MEPs are elected, but are essentially powerless.

          1. strum Silver badge

            Re: Ah, the UK gov

            >The EU exports more to the UK than the UK sells to the EU

            UK exports to EU = 45% of our exports

            EU exports to UK = 7% of their exports.

            The liars keep 'forgetting' that.

            1. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

              Re: Ah, the UK gov

              UK exports to EU = 45% of our exports

              £275 billion

              EU exports to UK = 7% of their exports.

              £340 billion, which is indeed bigger than £275 billion.

              The liars keep 'forgetting' that.

              No, they just choose their "damned lies" carefully.

          2. Lars Silver badge
            Happy

            Re: Ah, the UK gov

            "The EU exports more to the UK than the UK sells to the EU.".

            To export you have to produce something somebody needs and wants to buy, I have got the impression that the UK export industry is a lot more remain than leave, but sadly they are experts.

        3. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Ah, the UK gov

          Strange how most if e rest of the world outside the EU has viable economies.

          You fell for project Fear.

          Bless!

        4. codejunky Silver badge

          Re: Ah, the UK gov

          @ Rich 11

          "This was inevitable, unless we want to fuck the economy into the toilet"

          The Eurozone.

          "Some of you may not care that the NHS gets underfunded and understaffed yet further"

          We are continuing to spend even more on the NHS than before the recession.

          "or schools once more lose the capacity to provide non-leaking roofs"

          Under PFI that is an issue of the private contractor.

          "It would of course be easier simply not to leave the EU"

          Simpler. Undemocratic. Unwise. Its simpler not to get out of bed in a morning but eventually you will die.

          "If you haven't learned anything about such basic aspects of reality by now, you never will"

          While I hold out hope that those determined not to see reality cant stay blind to it forever. Like when people wanted the Euro in this country.

        5. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

          Re: Ah, the UK gov

          It would of course be easier simply not to leave the EU.

          And there is the crux of the matter. People want the easy option, even if it just leads to mediocrity and economic stagnation. The idea that a difficult choice which requires lots of hard work might be better in the future is just unacceptable. Much easier to let someone else do the work, and just tell you what do. Anything for a quiet life. Truly shameful.

  1. Lee D Silver badge

    Lessons to be learned:

    - Never ask a question you don't want to hear the answer to.

    - Never promise something that relies on other people's / country's / continent's co-operation.

    - Never assume it's simple to undo decades of political wranglings and legal paperwork.

    - Never take on a job that you don't actually want to do.

    - Never stay in a job any longer than necessary once it becomes clear it's not what you want to do.

    - Never piss off your allies without good cause.

    1. Voland's right hand Silver badge

      - Never piss off your allies without good cause.

      You obviously never studied British history properly...

      1. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge
        Happy

        You obviously never studied British history properly...

        Or French, or Spanish, or....

        1. Michael Habel Silver badge

          What Europe need right now more than anything, is a good old fashend French Revolution. Instead of the King it would be the treacherous slimeball politicians who'd open their lands up to foreign invadors in the name of diversity, and cultural intragration. Of unminded People looking for a handout, and a place to spread their filth.

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I said this the other day and got lots of down votes as someone suggested we would use Interpol and nothing would change.

    I hate being right.

    1. Voland's right hand Silver badge

      nothing would change.

      Interpol has a mere fraction of the data floating in the Shengen system. It has information on every single stolen vehicle in the Eu, every single person of interest for pretty much any offence as well as a lot of stolen goods.

      Compared to that Interpol red notices are only for stuff in the millions and people connected to them.

      There is a common theme amidst 95% of terrorist incidents in Eu in the last decade - criminal record of the offenders before converting to the hard form of bearded lunacy. You can get that info from Shengen database. You cannot get it from Interpol.

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Guys, guys, Project Fear Mark 75 can be wound up now!

    It's clear we're never going to be allowed to leave the EU so your objective has been achieved.

    RIP democracy. It was nice while it lasted!

    1. ibmalone Silver badge

      Re: Guys, guys, Project Fear Mark 75 can be wound up now!

      It's clear we're never going to be allowed to leave the EU so your objective has been achieved.

      RIP democracy. It was nice while it lasted!

      What about democracy at an EU level? (Oh, that's the only one UKIP were ever successful at, yet they never bothered to try and fix the things they complained about.) What about democracy at the level of the UK nations, two of which voted to stay? What about democracy in the 1998 Good Friday Agreement referendum and the 2014 Scottish independence referendum, one built on the EU and the other won on a "project fear" of not being able to stay in it? What about democracy in a referendum fought largely on, "Well it'll be alright, obviously we can get a much better deal than Norway! Ha ha ha!"? What about the lack of democracy when the leave vote came through and the only decent thing to do in the limits of our system would have been an election fought on the basis of how we were going to leave? What about democracy in the general election we eventually got halfway through negotiation where the two teams we get to vote for didn't offer a choice? What about democracy where a self appointed cabal within the Conservative party tries to call the shots?

      And what about democracy in asking people, once they have a chance to actually see what is going to be done in the name of a vote on an open ended course of action two years ago, if that's really what they wanted? No, of course, that wouldn't be democratic at all.

      1. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

        Re: Guys, guys, Project Fear Mark 75 can be wound up now!

        What about democracy at an EU level?

        An excellent question. Where is it?

        What about having an EU-wide referendum, to ask everyone in the EU if they want to continue towards "ever-closer union" and an eventual centrally-controlled superstate, or if they would prefer to return to a common market of friendly, sovereign neighbours, co-operating in a free trade area?

        The EU won't ask, of course, because they're scared of what the answer would be, so please don't pretend that it's even close to being a democratic entity.

        1. davenewman

          Re: Guys, guys, Project Fear Mark 75 can be wound up now!

          The European Parliament works far better than the Westminster one. The MEPs spend their time in committees, drawing up legislation across national and party lines, finding better solutions to the problems we face. I had a fascinating hour listening to the Swedish Green MEP explaining how her committee got the common fisheries policy changed to something sensible. They came up with a workable compromise they then sold to the rest of the MEPs, co-ordinating their reports with mass demonstrations outside led by Hugh Fearnley-Wittingstall.

          In Westminster we have people shouting at each other in Parliament, with no power to change what the Government Ministers decide, all doing exactly what the whips tell them.

          The times when the EU doesn't work is when the European Parliament is overruled by the Council of Ministers - i.e. the Ministers from each national government.

          What we need is a civil war like the US had, to set up a proper working federal government.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Guys, guys, Project Fear Mark 75 can be wound up now!

            Laws and the real decisions are made behind closed doors by technocrats in Brussels. The European Parliament is simply for show. The EU is about as far away from a democracy as anyone could envisage.

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Guys, guys, Project Fear Mark 75 can be wound up now!

            The European Parliament works far better than the Westminster one. The MEPs spend their time in committees, drawing up legislation across national and party lines, finding better solutions to the problems we face.

            Bless!

          3. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

            Re: Guys, guys, Project Fear Mark 75 can be wound up now!

            I had a fascinating hour listening to the Swedish Green MEP explaining how her committee got the common fisheries policy changed to something sensible.

            If only they'd spend all their time sorting out that sort of trade issue, instead of trying to impose a one-size-fits-all political solution on the whole continent. We might indeed be better off.

            no power to change what the Government Ministers decide, all doing exactly what the whips tell them

            Right about now I guess Theresa May wishes it really were that simple. But it isn't, of course.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Guys, guys, Project Fear Mark 75 can be wound up now!

          >The EU won't ask, of course, because they're scared of what the answer would be

          The answer would be yes - and don't forget there's five countries currently in the process of joining - six if you count Scotland (SNP had representatives at the last Accession talks)

          1. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

            Re: Guys, guys, Project Fear Mark 75 can be wound up now!

            The answer would be yes

            Well, it might be in some of the small countries that get the subsidies. Not so much in the larger ones who pay for them, but even there it's an economic issue, not a political one. Of course, the idea was always that those smaller countries would eventually become net contributors, hasn't worked out that way though. Let's see what May 2019's elections bring.

            don't forget there's five countries currently in the process of joining

            I can't see Erdogan's Turkey ever getting in now, though, and it's debateable if the others actually want political union, rather than just free-trade membership.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Guys, guys, Project Fear Mark 75 can be wound up now!

              >Not so much in the larger ones who pay for them

              We're the most sceptical and even here it was close to 50:50 - and would be a remain majority according to all surveys were there another vote.

              >Of course, the idea was always that those smaller countries would eventually become net contributors

              That has never been the idea.

              >I can't see Erdogan's Turkey ever getting in now

              Zero chance under him - they stalled after budget alignment talks in 2016, but he's unlikely to last more than 10 years or so at worst. Accession is a slow process, the success of the EU is down to it's ability to plan over much longer timescales than national election cycles.

              > and it's debateable if the others actually want political union

              It really isn't.

        3. Warm Braw Silver badge

          Re: Guys, guys, Project Fear Mark 75 can be wound up now!

          The EU won't ask

          Obviously we've been distracted by (to us) more immediate EU issues, but there's been a process going on in the EU to find a replacement for Jean-Claude Juncker. That process involves the EU parliament (which we elect and whose various party groupings have been picking their Spitzenkandidaten) and the Council of Ministers (representatives of national governments, which we also elect).

          None of this has been much reported in the UK media, though the process has been widely covered in other EU countries. That's a considerably more democratic process than, for example, the appointment of the head of the British civil service.

          I would concede that many people in the UK feel remote from the institutions that make decisions that affect them, but that's largely down to the lack of effective regional government in the UK: Transport for the North, for example, has no control over transport in the north and no ability to raise money to provide it; even in London, the Assembly has limited power beyond transport and some joint oversight of the police along with the Home Secretary. That's not the fault of Europe and the Brexit process (it if ever happens) will only concentrate power in Westminster even more.

          If other EU countries wish to pursue "ever-closer union", they can. They can't make us join in and in fact only a minority of EU countries actually have aspirations in that direction. Ultimately, there'll have to be a "variable geometry" Europe to keep the project on the road and we have far better prospects if we remain the the EU and help to make that happen than by simply throwing our toys out of the pram.

          1. Lars Silver badge

            Re: Guys, guys, Project Fear Mark 75 can be wound up now!

            One could add "Each new President is nominated by the European Council and formally elected by the European Parliament, for a five-year term".

            It's a limited term and that is why a new President will be elected.

            The European Council, charged with defining the European Union's (EU) overall political direction and priorities, is the institution of the EU that comprises the heads of state or government of the member states, along with the President of the European Council and the President of the European Commission.

        4. strum Silver badge

          Re: Guys, guys, Project Fear Mark 75 can be wound up now!

          >What about democracy at an EU level?

          An excellent question. Where is it?

          Substantially more democratic than the UK.

        5. Lars Silver badge
          Happy

          Re: Guys, guys, Project Fear Mark 75 can be wound up now!

          "The EU won't ask".

          Such a mythical animal, I wonder what it is.

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