Re: Reminds me of a story
Ive noticed something with my kids and their friends.. they dont "click". They "tap".
My late FIL, said it was "poke" as in "should I poke that icon?".
Welcome again to On-Call, The Register’s weekly column in which we provide a little therapy by letting readers share their stories of horror tech support entanglements. This week, met “Vince”, who “during 2002, unwittingly took on a contract with my local council to setup and operate a community cyber cafés.” Vince told us he …
Exactly. The cursor and mouse are separate, and a teacher shouldn't assume that they can use the shorthand of pretending they're the same with brand new students.
After reading this story, it took me only a few seconds to come up with a game I think would help - a variation on the "wire loop" game (where you hold a metal loop and move it along a winding wire, avoiding letting them touch). Use the mouse to move a sprite around a maze without it touching the sides, and click when you reach the end. 5 levels, increasing in difficulty, should give almost anybody the basics - and help to embed the concept of physical objects equating to virtual ones.
"There aren't that many left alive. The computer age is older than you think."
The computer age for nerds dates from WW2. The computer age for normal people started around about 1990. Most people over 50, of which there are quite a few left, probably had their first serious encounters with a computer in adulthood. Those over 75, and there's a few of those left too, may have decided at the time that this was a young person's thing and they'd give it a miss. Only now, with the government full of spotty teenagers who can't believe anyone could not want to do everything on the web with their smartphone, do that generation realise that this might have been a bad call.
"The computer age for normal people started around about 1990."
As a domestic, single user device, maybe. But many normal people were sitting at green screens (or orange ones if you wanted to be ergonomic) in offices well before then. Before that they'd maybe have been filling in sheets for data entry clerks to enter into punch cards and getting computer-printed pay slips.
"Those over 75, and there's a few of those left too, may have decided at the time that this was a young person's thing and they'd give it a miss."
I'm not quite 75 yet but by the time the first practical micro-driven devices came out, say late '70s. I was in my 40s. Well before the teenagers were playing with their Spectra of C64s I could see just what this could do for lab instrumentation when there wasn't a budget for PDPs or Novas and setting them to work.
The computer age began well before you think.
I was born in 1943 and first encountered a computer in 1985 when working for a large Government department with HQ in Cheltenham. The computer was a Commodore Pet which, together with Raeto West's invaluable handbook, enabled 2 or 3 of us to produce some useful programs in 6502 assembler - despite all the Scientific Officers looking down their noses as they produced similar programs in high level language on their PDP machines. A year or so later we got the first IBM PC and an Aztec "C" compiler and never looked back!
@ Ken Hagan
"The computer age for nerds dates from WW2. The computer age for normal people started around about 1990....."
Good God! How old are you! The computer age started to go mainstream at the very least, by the early 60s. I was writing RPG (ugghh!), Assembler, and later PL/I since 1966 for a bank first of all, then later after skiving off to the UK, more Assembler, COBOL, then later again 8086 assembler.
I agree that it started way earlier than that, but that's when it became mainstream - even here in New Zealand. My first job at the (savings) bank was for an online banking system, which incidentally was waaayyy before the Poms, judging by the banking system there in the early 70s.
I might add, that if the oldies didn't get it, I would suggest that was more the fault of the instructor rather than the pupils. If you have never struck a concept before, then saying "click on an icon" is totally meaningless, as is expecting anyone to know instinctively what a mouse was and how to use it. I knew a bloke once (a lawyer, so entirely thick) who was never shown how to use one, but managed to eventually work it out for himself. The only thing was, he held the mouse back to front, with the "tail" trailing over the front of the desk. Consequently any instruction to "right" or "left" click was totally arse about face for him.
Happily retired now and nearly 75, there are some modern concepts that people take for granted that I sometimes have a struggle with. Being used to a Samsung tablet and an Android phone, both with home and back buttons, I recently purchased an iPad which of course only has a single button, and of course these days no user manual to get you going. I am still learning new stuff on it because it operates quite differently to Android. Swipe up from the bottom of the screen to switch to another open app (amongst other things). Oh yeah, totally intuitive. I figured it out because I worked out that there had to be an easy way, so tried all sorts of gestures, swipes etc, until stumbling upon it.
Incidentally an "intuitive" interface is all in the eye of the beholder. If you've written the interface then of course it's intuitive. Not so much for other people. I still have problems with a lot of website interfaces which in my humble opinion are a pile of garbage. It is also NOT clever to put yellow writing on a light brown background or vice versa. And there are several other colour combinations that do not work all that well either.
But then what would I know. I've only had over 40 years experience or writing software, designing interfaces, and learning how people handle such things. First rule, do not assume that you know what works for people, just because you understand it.
BTW why is El Reg using an American dictionary in a UK publication? It just flagged up "colour" which everyone knows is the correct spelling despite the efforts of some to "simplify" English.
"There aren't that many left alive."
That reminds me, The Times last weekend carried an obit. of Tim Berners-Lee's mother who seems to have had in interesting computing career of her own back in the earlyish days. It's a pity el Reg didn't pick up on that.
It reminds me of one of our "top" programmers back in the day, when I did desktop support, he'd decided that to avoid Occupational Overuse in his arm from his mouse, he'd put it on the floor and use his foot. He attached little foam pads to make it easier to tell where the buttons were, and everything.
Of course, it made it difficult for anyone else to work on his computer, made the mouse gunge up even faster than normal, and he eventually got told off by our Workplace Health and Safety people for basically being an idiot.
Hindsight is wonderful, if you can have it. Perhaps he could have made an introductory video, showing himself or a friend using a computer and pointing out the 'important bits' and how they are used.
You only realise that certain problems can even exist after you encounter them.
> Perhaps he could have made an introductory video, showing himself or a friend using a computer and pointing out the 'important bits' and how they are used.
Nice idea in principle Frank Ly, but in practice, I have tried to train people who could watch someone perform the most simplistic task, (move the mouse and push the button) and be utterly unable to replicate the task without massive amounts of instructions and reassurance. Then once they have finally mastered the task, and need to repeat it the next day to actually open an application, the mouse is yet again scraping across the screen. I kid you not.
Some years ago I taught a ninety something year old to use a computer. She wanted to have a computer to communicate with her great, great grandchildren who are obviously more used to emails etc for sending messages and pictures than using snailmail.
Frankly, it wasn't particually difficult. In fact, i've had more problems teaching pointy haired bosses, because she accepted full well that she didn't know and just listened to what she was told. Getting her used to the mouse was perhaps the most difficult task, but acheived by shoving the sensitivity to the lowest possible and then introducing her to a "whack a mole" type flash game.
A week later she'd gotten pretty good at that flash game and I was boosing the sensitivity on the mouse somewhat and showing her how to do that as she got more used to it. The only problem she ran into was that she'd been saving documents over the top of each other, but grasped the concept of a file system pretty quickly when it was explained.
Ultimately the oldest people alive now grew up in a country where transport was done with horse and cart, with the odd rich guy with one of those newfangled cars and really well off businesses with a van. Steam engines were still being used in fields for the harvest. Gas lighting was the new thing, and the toilets were at the end of the garden somewhere near the outdoor pump for getting water. She'd lived through two world wars and seen the development and deployment of interior running water, electricity, television, computers and the internet. Now, bearing this in mind, why do you think older generations have trouble grasping new concepts?
As so long as things are put sensibly to them in my experiance they don't have any significant trouble grasping new things.
"Gas lighting was the new thing"
Errr. How old do you think the oldest people still alive are? Pushing towards the second century?
Gas lighting still having been a thing, however, is quite realistic. We had gas lighting in the house I grew up in until we moved just before I was 14.
"Gas lighting still having been a thing, however, is quite realistic."
There are still areas in London with gas street lights (with gas mantles), spotted them earlier this week. And the Theatre Royal Bristol still had gas emergency lighting (fishtail burners) into the 1990s I think.
There are something like 1,500 gas lamps still running in central London (mostly round Covent Garden & the Mall, I suspect primarily for aesthetic reasons) and also one still running on sewer gas - ironically, just out the back of the Savoy Theatre which of course was the first electrically lit public building in the world.
And yet sewing machine foot pedals made in the 1980s do look like big beige mice! And a beige PC case is roughly the same size as a beige sewing machine.
There's possibly a deeper lesson about user experience here, specifically Information Ergonomics, muscle memory and Alzheimer's.
Why would the foot pedal be in the desk at the start of the session? Some mothers would pick up the pedal to stop toddlers sitting on it.
The other possibility was that the old lady knew exactly what she was doing and just reckoned that winding up the computer guy was a splendid bit of sport!
WIth regards to gas lighting being new to her, she said they were using (fuel burning?) lamps in the early part of her life and as she lived it then she's a primary source, rather than a secondary source like a textbook. (or me, passing on my recollections of what she said)
Presumably like high speed broadband high population and affluant areas got gas lighting first and lower population areas in the rest of the country didn't get it installed until much later, or the alternatives were cheaper.
I don't really know, and frankly don't really care too much. My point was simply that older generations are provably quite used to dealing with major change, and can easily accept a few more changes if taught decently and respectfully. You can learn new things from them, as well.
I also hope that if i'm reasonable with the older generations today then when i'm ninety something then somebody born in a few decades time might be as patient with me.
then the one who explains does not his/her job correctly.
It's up the teacher to find the way to be understood, whatever his/her audience. A teacher unable to do that should think about a quick carrier change, it would be the best for his/her poor students.
Oh God yes, I've been training/supporting people for more years than I care to remember and some of them seem to be utterly incapable of learning - well, anything new. At one company, I used to hold the chief executives hand and move and click the mouse for them when they were video-conferencing. Because they only did it once a month, they would forget how between sessions (no, the printed (large font and pictures) user guide on the desk next to them didn't help). Possibly they just liked me holding their hand of course. ;-)
Urgh! Transferring photos from a camera to a PC often involves so many unnecessary steps! Even 'Make device safe to remove' involves one more click than it should, and half the time, after a pause, decides not to work because a window is still open. I hate it.
For many people, looking after photos is a primary reason for using a PC. Thank heavens many find phones are adequate for family snaps (and many phones are far better that the digital cameras many people were using a dozen years ago).
"Alright, go teach a classroom of 5 year olds the general theory of relativity."
A professorial friend maintains that his sons grasped the Theory of Relativity at the age of 8 - far better than did his new undergraduate students.
There was a story - possibly by Charles Dodgson (Lewis Carroll) - about an alien device suddenly appearing in a household (think wormhole). It looked like beads on wires - but if you moved a bead it would often go to an unexpected position. The learned father could not work it out - but the children happily played with it. Eventually the youngest child appeared to have mastered the predictions - and then he and the device suddenly disappeared.
"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mimsy_Were_the_Borogoves"
Thanks for that link. The Lewis Padgett story has the right plot line - and the right cues for my possible memory key of "Lewis Carroll". Unfortunately many of the details do not ring any bells - as if I originally read a much shorter form of the story 40 years ago. The sci-fi section of my bookcases was down-sized many years ago - so it is unlikely that I still have the appropriate anthology.
"Mimsy" isn't quite the same story, but it's close. Mimsy (and the Momsy raiths upgab) was about a baby upgraded by transdimentional aliens to an superntelligent baby who, being a baby and never disciplined, was a pain in the butt. Eventually Baby fools with a gizmo and is...I forget...either reduced to a true baby or vanishes completely. I remember it from Tales of Time and Space, my constant companion for the past 55 years.
"Sometimes the subject/audience disconnect is too wide to be bridged. That's not the teacher's fault."
But not in this case. Teaching an adult human how to use certain technology they are unfamiliar with is not comparable to teaching a 5-year old relativity.
I've taught and helped maybe a dozen 'silver surfers', but one lady defeated me. All she wanted to do was transfer photos from her camera to her computer and organise them. During the first session she seemed to be doing well, taking notes to remind herself. Got a call a couple of weeks later and she was struggling to find and open Windows Explorer. After two more teaching sessions I had to admit defeat. Her recall after only a few minutes was gone, even with her notes.