back to article Astroboffins say our Solar System could have – wait, stop, what... the US govt found UFOs?

Our Solar System may have been born from bubbles of material hurled from a colossal Wolf-Rayet-type star, according to a theory published Friday. Scientists studying the origin of our system generally believe – no, wait, sorry. Stop. You know 2017 has been a bonkers year when the New York Times reveals a classified $22m US …

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          1. King Jack
            Holmes

            Re: Alien UFO's are Real - True / False...

            @ Mystic Megabyte

            A True story/s

            When I was a child I didn't know what made night and day. So to fill the gap in my knowledge, I invented a sun god. Some mighty being that moves the sun across the sky. I felt smart. No gaps, I know everything. Later I looked up at the moon and thought, 'What makes it change shape and vanish at times?'. So I invented a moon god. I felt so clever, no gaps in my knowledge. Years later I wondered how the telly, fridge and radio worked. I noticed they only worked when plugged into the wall socket. I prodded around and felt the force of god. The god of power! I felt so clever, no gaps in my knowledge. I then wondered how the earth/universe began and the answer jumped out at me. Because I didn't know for sure, I invented a god that must have made everything. I am so clever, no gaps in my knowledge. The question is who made god? So I invented another being.... Every time I don't know the answer to something I invent a god. What is wrong with just saying you don't know? Then researching to find out the real reasons. No supernatural beings needed.

            Ignorant folk have been doing that nonsense for centuries and still that thinking is practised today.

            1. Sir Runcible Spoon Silver badge

              Re: Alien UFO's are Real - True / False...

              Has anyone managed to debunk that invisible balloon that was filmed in Cornwall?

              1. Tom Paine Silver badge
                Joke

                Re: Alien UFO's are Real - True / False...

                Invisible balloon, you say? Did it look anything like this?

                http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m3kri4zzN01qe26gv.jpg

                1. Adelio

                  Re: Alien UFO's are Real - True / False...

                  The question is not "is there a higher being", maybe one that created the universe.

                  BUT whether that "being" really cares about people (or any being from any plant) praying to it?

                  Why would it care?

                  surely it has better things to do.

                  I can readily believe that there might be other beings of a higher intelligence that the humans on earth. How many and how much more intelligent that us. Who knows. As i say, I find it hard to believe that they require people to "pray" to them and that they would respond to then "prayers". (Unless of course you believe in the Ori from Stargate Atlantis)

                  1. Terry 6 Silver badge

                    Re: Alien UFO's are Real - True / False...

                    Adelio

                    Yes, this is why I can't believe in the god of religions. I can accept the idea that there may be a god. But not a god who is so needy that it needs us to worship and pray all the time, or follow all sorts of petty rules, beyond the basic level of decent behaviour. God may not be a mere human invention, but god the High Bureaucrat certainly has been made in our own image.

                    1. Richard Plinston Silver badge

                      Re: Alien UFO's are Real - True / False...

                      > I can accept the idea that there may be a god. But not a god who is so needy that it needs us to worship and pray all the time, or follow all sorts of petty rules,

                      And yet that describes Kim Jong Un and Donald Trump and several others quite well. I can see that a warlord Jehovah (ie non-supernatural) could easily be the same.

                    2. Kiwi Silver badge
                      Pint

                      Re: Alien UFO's are Real - True / False...

                      Yes, this is why I can't believe in the god of religions. I can accept the idea that there may be a god. But not a god who is so needy that it needs us to worship and pray all the time, or follow all sorts of petty rules, beyond the basic level of decent behaviour. God may not be a mere human invention, but god the High Bureaucrat certainly has been made in our own image.

                      Many do follow a god of their own design (and yes try as I might I have done that myself).

                      God does not need us to pray, however like any Father He does want us to have a personal relationship with Him, and of course a relationship involves communication.

                      The rules we should follow are just as you said, basic decent behaviour. Jesus phrased it as "Love God, and love your neighbour as your self" and that sums up the 10 commandments. Things like not stealing from people, not cheating on your partner nor taking your friend's partner, not murdering someone, not stressing yourself over what your neighbours own that you don't etc etc.

                      Most countries laws are based around the last 6 commandments.

                      And no, I have no idea why God chose the rituals the Israelites were expected to follow. That He hasn't told me :)

                      1. Richard Plinston Silver badge

                        Re: Alien UFO's are Real - True / False...

                        > Most countries laws are based around the last 6 commandments.

                        And were _before_ there was a Moses (even if there was).

              2. TheVogon Silver badge

                Re: Alien UFO's are Real - True / False...

                "Has anyone managed to debunk that invisible balloon that was filmed in Cornwall?"

                If it was invisible how did they film it?

                1. Alistair Silver badge
                  Windows

                  Re: Alien UFO's are Real - True / False...

                  "If it was invisible how did they film it?"

                  Perhaps they got a good layer of melted butter on it?

          2. amanfromMars 1 Silver badge

            Re: Alien UFO's are Real - True / False... @Mystic Megabyte

            So the Big Bang was either a miracle or perhaps the universe willed itself into existence. Prior to the BB, spacetime did not exist. ..... Mystic Megabyte

            Prior to anything, does everything rather than nothing exist just waiting patiently to be patently discovered and uncovered, or does anything and everything and nothing all evolve and grow peculiarly from nowhere too in particular?

            And, in the great scheme of present things and current thinking does it really matter a jot to any of us, other than to be as a permanent distraction from action able to deliver an advanced future with infinite funding provided by considerably smarter beings ...... for such appears to be the main, if not only, criteria by which everything is nowadays supplied to both the masses and the few playing with elitism?

          3. Dagg
            Boffin

            Re: Alien UFO's are Real - True / False...

            If for example you believe in the Big Bang theory you must hold contradictory beliefs.

            Ok, there is a fundamental problem with that statement. First the Big Bang theory is just that it is a THEORY. The concept of a theory is an untested idea as an explanation of something that has been observed.

            You do not believe in a theory you challenge and test a theory, there is no belief.

            The current (note term current) Big Bang Theory arose to explain some things that had been observed the current theory will make predictions and it is these predictions that can be tested and if they fail the theory needs to be revisited revised or thrown away.

            There is no blind belief in science it is not like religion where the same "theory" is in place for 2,000 years and where you are not allowed to test or challenge it.

            1. Kiwi Silver badge
              Angel

              Re: Alien UFO's are Real - True / False...

              There is no blind belief in science it is not like religion where the same "theory" is in place for 2,000 years and where you are not allowed to test or challenge it.

              The Bible says "Prove that which is good", and also has several passages relating to testing and defending the faith.

              A part of that is studying God's Creation and how it works. A great many early scientists were Christian and could trust experimental data because unlike many of the eg Greek gods, the Creator is not petty and does not change the laws of physics on a whim - you can trust that things will work according to the laws He laid down.

              My faith is not blind. Parts of it especially in the earlier days have been, but all of it has always been subject to testing, proving, and if apparently in error re-thinking and perhaps removing. That God exists, created the universe etc - in that I have no doubt. The HOW and WHY of parts of that may have changed.

              I count physicists and biologists among my friends, and in these I mean people of note.

              And sadly yes, some Christians are quite rigid in their beliefs, especially on certain subjects. You can't imagine the number I've come across who would condemn me to some mythical "eternal punishment" because the circumstances of my life led me to being gay long before they led me to the Love and Forgiveness of Jesus - hence Romans 14:4 and 1 John 1:8-10 being amount my favourite verses (8&10 for them, 9 for me :) ).

              You can test and challenge my faith. Sometimes I will bend (eg my nastier comments here), sometimes I will break (eg some of my moderated comments here), but I will heal and grow stronger in my faith. I welcome the challenge!

              1. TheVogon Silver badge

                Re: Alien UFO's are Real - True / False...

                "That God exists, created the universe etc - in that I have no doubt."

                So believers in the other 2999 religions on the planet are the gullible idiots and yours is the one true religion?!

                1. Kiwi Silver badge
                  Trollface

                  Re: Alien UFO's are Real - True / False...

                  ...gullible idiots...

                  Sorry, didn't think this was a thread about MS users?

              2. Bernard M. Orwell

                Re: Alien UFO's are Real - True / False...

                "That God exists, created the universe etc - in that I have no doubt."

                Then he should be charged with crimes against humanity immediately, as he is clearly not a benevolent deity.

            2. Hollerithevo Silver badge

              Re: Alien UFO's are Real - True / False...

              A theory is an explanation. An hypothesis is the untested idea. Once you have tested and, from its resuls, formulated an explanation, and others have re-tested and confirmed your explanation, then you are in business, until new evidence or anomalies make people create a new hypothesis, which is tested, which results in an explanation = theory.

              The theory of gravity is not an untested idea.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Alien UFO's are Real - True / False...

          You think there's no evidence God exists ? Then take some chemicals and go make me a simple cell. The show me how to do it in the hostile conditions of early earth. There is no shred of evidence this is possible by natural causes - and so far its not even possible in the lab. Yes the people who believe in abiogenesis are the ones who are deluded.

          1. Martin
            FAIL

            Re: Alien UFO's are Real - True / False...

            Oh, dear, dear, dear.

            I can't explain it, and neither can anyone else. Therefore goddidit.

            Come on - that was a reasonable argument in prehistoric days, but it's just tripe nowadays.

            The real issue about abiogenesis is that we're trying to understand something that happened perhaps only once in a totally different environment about three point eight billion years ago, and something that clearly doesn't happen easily (or it would presumably have happened again, probably multiple times). Of COURSE it's likely that we can't explain it. It's very likely we'll never have a really convincing explanation. But that doesn't mean that, therefore, there is a god.

            1. Captain DaFt

              Re: Alien UFO's are Real - True / False...

              I can't explain it, and neither can anyone else. Therefore goddidit.

              You left out a very important word in that line of reasoning:

              "I can't explain it, and therefore neither can anyone else. Therefore goddidit."

              The more ignorant a person is, the more likely they are to assume that they know everything knowable.

            2. Richard Plinston Silver badge

              Re: Alien UFO's are Real - True / False...

              > something that clearly doesn't happen easily (or it would presumably have happened again, probably multiple times).

              It may well have happened millions of times, but once it had happened the times that came afterwards merely produced food for the earlier organisms.

          2. TheVogon Silver badge

            Re: Alien UFO's are Real - True / False...

            "You think there's no evidence God exists ? Then take some chemicals and go make me a simple cell. "

            That's not evidence of god. That's evidence that we don't know everything about everything. Yet.

            "The show me how to do it in the hostile conditions of early earth. There is no shred of evidence this is possible by natural causes "

            Well actually we can already get most of the way there in the lab. For instance creating amino acids, creating self replicating ribozymes, creating chromosomes. etc, etc. See for instance: http://biology-pages.info/A/AbioticSynthesis.html and even Charality is no longer challenging without a "god" - https://www.livescience.com/7480-life-left-handed.html - so sorry if that's your argument for god, but it's rapidly disintegrating as science advances.

            1. Kiwi Silver badge
              Boffin

              Re: Alien UFO's are Real - True / False...

              "The show me how to do it in the hostile conditions of early earth. There is no shred of evidence this is possible by natural causes "

              Well actually we can already get most of the way there in the lab. For instance creating amino acids, creating self replicating ribozymes, creating chromosomes.

              The trick is.. NOT doing it in the lab but doing it outside. Try using a lightning strike to supply the energy and see if anything is left afterwards. Try going against the natural chemical reactions to create the un-natural ones so important to life.

              When it can be worked out how to provide the energy needed to kick-start the reactions without over-cooking and how to get the reactions to work in the right fashion without creating an abundance of chemicals hostile to life at the same time.

              Then when you have your chemicals, you also have to find a way to combine them in the correct one out of ~ 1x10^56,000 (iirc) possible combinations.

              Making a tyre does not give you a car. Making a bonnet does not give you a car. Making a door does not give you a car. Making a wooden block that almost looks like an engine if you squint at it funny does not make a car.

              This is not rocket science. In fact, rocket science and making extremely "exotic" materials and fuels is bloody simple compared to this stuff!

              1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

                Re: Alien UFO's are Real - True / False...

                "When it can be worked out how to provide the energy needed to kick-start the reactions without over-cooking and how to get the reactions to work in the right fashion without creating an abundance of chemicals hostile to life at the same time."

                ...and repeat, billions upon billions of times in billions of combinations across a billion years. That's "billions". Get your head around that order of magnitude and "random" become statistics. Life, or the building blocks, may have been created billions of times, but it only takes one time, in the right conditions, to survive through all the other "experiments" and not get blasted back to the elements in another lightning strike.

            2. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Alien UFO's are Real - True / False...

              "Well actually we can already get most of the way there in the lab. For instance creating amino acids, creating self replicating ribozymes, creating chromosomes."

              So what you are saying is that to synthesize even the most basic building blocks of life (not even a living organism) it takes a lot of very smart people a long time to figure out - it doesn't just happen by accident. And this is supposedly proof against a higher being?

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: Alien UFO's are Real - True / False...

                Actually you've misunderstood the process.....

                The very intelligent people are trying to replicate the environment in which life could have been created, by generating an environment where those building blocks can appear is a strengthening of the theory that life could have spontaneously appeared in the primordial soup of a hot, supercharged electrical atmosphere world.

                I do find in amusing and boring in equal measure that you both seem to want to continue this debate on the mistaken premise that either of you would actually accept the others argument.

                Of course I could be wrong in which case strike me dead.

          3. Bernard M. Orwell

            Re: Alien UFO's are Real - True / False...

            "Then take some chemicals and go make me a simple cell."

            Do try to keep up with science....

            http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/dna-life-form-new-a-t-c-g-x-y-scripps-research-institute-synthetic-semi-a7544056.html

        2. agatum

          Re: Alien UFO's are Real - True / False...

          Yet not one solid scrap of evidence to show that a god exists.

          But it does exist. As anybody who has been truly in pain for long time (mine was thoroughly inflamed colon) knows: god is a painkiller.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Alien UFO's are Real - True / False...

            > (mine was thoroughly inflamed colon) knows: god is a painkiller.

            What are you saying here?: God people are a pain in the arse?

      1. King Jack
        Facepalm

        Re: Alien UFO's are Real - True / False...

        'Sceptics are put in the position of having to dis-prove all claims' No they are not. If I claim a fantastic thing like, I own a yellow invisible unicorn. It is up to me to prove it and show the evidence. Not for everyone else to disprove it. Taking your logic it means that every god, fairy, leprechaun, orc, bigfoot sighting must be given credence. Stop giving fuel to nutters.

        1. itzman

          Re: Alien UFO's are Real - True / False...

          The only proposition more absurd than the big bang is creationism.

          We are of course simply in a Matrix...

          1. bombastic bob Silver badge
            Alien

            Re: Alien UFO's are Real - True / False...

            "The only proposition more absurd than the big bang is creationism."

            We were NOT created by UFO aliens then? What about the Anunaki? "Ancient Astronaut Theorists" believe yotta yotta yotta and I saw it all on the History Channel! (that makes it true)

            heh.

          2. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

            Re: Alien UFO's are Real - True / False...

            "We are of course simply in a Matrix..."

            But who, I hear you ask, created the beings that created the matrix? Well, obviously, it's matrices all the way down!

            1. Neil Barnes Silver badge

              Re: Alien UFO's are Real - True / False...

              >> it's matrices all the way down!

              But, but, but... I am a free man! I am not an eigenvalue!

      2. bombastic bob Silver badge
        Alien

        Re: Alien UFO's are Real - True / False...

        "And once in a very great while, one of those claims will turn out to actually be true"

        I suspect it's at least somewhat more often than 'once in a very great while'. But as you pointed out, the burden of proof for ANY kind of paranormal activity is VERY high. Otherwise, claiming Randi's million would be easy.

        And yet, sometimes just being able to consistently observe or do things outside of the bell curve of probability may be enough to call it "success", like an unusually lucky gambler that seems to win more often than not... or an unusually UNlucky gambler on the opposite end of the spectrum. Events falling outside of the normal range of expected probabilities, and having THAT sort of thing happen consistently, MIGHT indicate "something else is going on".

        And you'd have a hard time proving it with science, using experiments.

        So 'paranormal' may be happening around all of us, all of the time, but we hardly notice, because it doesn't deviate that much from the expected normal. Or, perhaps we do not notice because it DOES deviate TOO MUCH from the expected normal, and so our minds filter it out. "It didn't happen" "I did not see that" "That couldn't possibly be what I saw".

    1. SMITCH79

      Re: Alien UFO's are Real - True / False...

      I remember watching that years ago after getting interested in pyramids (particularly the idea of a pyramid power station) then that numbnut just made me think no way. He is someone who just picked up the ball and ran with it. Can't believe they're still showing this stuff.

      1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

        Re: Alien UFO's are Real - True / False...

        "He is someone who just picked up the ball and ran with it."

        He's a protégé of von Däniken, which explains a lot :-)

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Alien UFO's are Real - True / False...

      Why is every video blurry and lacking detail (despite all the mass sightings and high quality cams we carry around in our pockets).

      I can only speak of still photography, as I'm not a big fan of video (though 'broadcast quality' cameras and lenses are nice to play with...), Despite having high resolution sensors, phones have pretty poxy lenses (no matter who make them) as far as size and focal lengths are concerned.

      My main phone has a primary 12 Megapixel camera with a massive 2mm aperture lens, it's FOV is just slightly less than that of the vision of a normal human being, despite the approximate 1.1x magnification of any object that this gives, despite the 12 megapixel sensor, small objects in the sky will remain just that to my phone, small objects in the sky..and they'll be eternally fuzzy no matter how much you digitally zoom the buggers thanks to poor resolving power of the (not atypical) small lens that my phone has.

      Even with a decent large aperture 'long' lens on a DSLR, unless you've got a camera capable of better than 80 megapixels, then you'll still get images fuzzier than the equivalents taken using the same lens on a film camera loaded with a decent film, digital photography has not only made it easier to take pictures of fuzzy blobs in the sky, it's also made the blobs fuzzier...

      In short, Mobile phones are ok if all you want to capture is something that approximates an unaided eye's view of a subject, if you want to optically zoom in on a remote object, then phones are out. Regarding zoom and magnification, I did a quick and dirty test of the bridge camera that I normally lug around with me (12x Zoom range it claims), the range of magnification over the unaided eye for this beastie goes from approx 0.25x at the wide end, to approximate 3x at the Tele end of the zoom. A similar quick and dirty test with my DSLR fitted with the 75-300mm lens I normally have in the bag gives an approximate maximum 4x magnified view of an object over the unaided eye, the fun part is that the lens that is normally keep on the camera gives you (at max zoom) approximately 0.75x magnification, if I did see an OSF and grabbed this camera, without changing the lens I'd capture a smaller image of the thing than I could see with my naked eye, so even if you are lugging around a DSLR, you'd have to have an indecently large long lens fitted to the camera at all times to stand a fighting chance of obtaining a better than fuzzy blob shot of your typical OVNI.

      Whenever I see Giorgio Tsoukalos' stupid head on the History Channel, plugging ancient astronaut theories, I'm sure we're lost now more than ever.

      Ah, he serves a useful function in my household, I've told relatives that the first time they hear me say 'actually, he has a point...' instead of my usual sweary rants about asininity when he's on and spouting the usual garbage then they've my permission to take me out the back and shoot me, as I've no wish to suffer the long and drawn out effects of the obvious senility I'm slipping into.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Alien UFO's are Real - True / False...

      Sightings/reports of things that have all-but stopped entirely since HD cameras and video cameras became ubiquitous items that just about everyone carries at all times: bigfoot, UFOs, the beast of bodmin

      Sightings/reports of things that have increased since HD cameras and video cameras became ubiquitous items that everyone carries at all times: police violence

      1. Terry 6 Silver badge

        Re: Alien UFO's are Real - True / False...

        It's like the way that crashed cars always burst into flames after the invention of technicolour.

    4. Captain DaFt

      Re: Alien UFO's are Real - True / False...

      Why is every video blurry and lacking detail (despite all the mass sightings and high quality cams we carry around in our pockets).

      Got to realise there are probably a total of 300,000 - 400,000 excellent photographers out of a population of about 8 billion out there. Put the best camera on the market in the hands of the average klutz, and you get crappy pictures.

      That said, Although the probability that intelligent life is somewhere out there*, The odds of them stumbling across our little backwater system out between the arms of the galaxy are virtually nil.

      So all those pictures? Dust, or scratches on the lens catching light, or odd clouds, or weather balloons, random atmospheric phenomena, aircraft, both regular and secret, rocket launches, kites, lost party balloons, whatever, are all open to misinterpretation, especially if the viewer wants to see UFOs from space.

      *Obligatory, "'Cause there's bugger all down here on Earth."

    5. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

      Re: Alien UFO's are Real - True / False...

      "despite all the mass sightings and high quality cams we carry around in our pockets)."

      Have you ever browsed YouTube? Having an HD video camera in your pocket doesn't automatically confer the skills to use it without causing motion sickness induced projectile vomiting on the audience. Not to mention that everything is filmed in portrait mode because the camera doesn't come with instructions on how to turn it sideways while making a video, despite the user watching properly done videos in landscape mode.

    6. jelabarre59 Silver badge

      Re: Alien UFO's are Real - True / False...

      Whenever I see Giorgio Tsoukalos' stupid head on the History Channel, plugging ancient astronaut theories, I'm sure we're lost now more than ever.

      He must be an alien himself. He even has the Centari hairdoo.

      1. King Jack
        Unhappy

        Re: Alien UFO's are Real - True / False...

        'Whenever I see Giorgio Tsoukalos' stupid head on the History Channel...'

        Sadly I have a brother who believes all that crap. I asked him why and he told me it was because it was on the History channel and they were talking about things that happened long ago. It also makes him an expert (in his eyes) at something as he is as thick as two short planks.

        1. Sir Runcible Spoon Silver badge

          Re: Alien UFO's are Real - True / False...

          I've recently been exploring some of the evidence put forth to suggest that The Earth is flat. There are some very awkward observations being made, lots of bunkum too, but definitely worth digging for the nuggets that will stretch your mind.

          1. Richard Plinston Silver badge

            Re: Alien UFO's are Real - True / False...

            > but definitely worth digging for the nuggets that will stretch your mind.

            Why would you want your mind stretched any thinner ?

            Some commentators have suggested that the flat earth youtube videos are there purely as click bait to get ad revenue. The 'evidence' is very flawed and some is obviously faked. No one with two clues is going to be convinced, except maybe biblical literalists (because they lack or suppress critical skills).

            1. Kiwi Silver badge
              Trollface

              Re: Alien UFO's are Real - True / False...

              No one with two clues is going to be convinced, except maybe biblical literalists (because they lack or suppress critical skills).

              Wow, you really need to upgrade your own skillset some.

              Almost looks as if you're taking some of this stuff quite personally!

          2. Kiwi Silver badge
            Pint

            Re: Alien UFO's are Real - True / False...

            I've recently been exploring some of the evidence put forth to suggest that The Earth is flat. There are some very awkward observations being made, lots of bunkum too, but definitely worth digging for the nuggets that will stretch your mind.

            Yup, in some of the ones I've watched there's some interesting stuff. Some can be the result of optical effects with the air between two points refracting the light, some is clearly deliberately misleading (eg they claim something can be seen from a place where it would be impossible if the earth was curved, but if you look into it what they claim can be seen cannot be seen)

            Just don't ever read the comments. There's depths of weirdness in there you don't ever want to look into! Even the worst of us here in El Reg don't plumb those depths!

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Alien UFO's are Real - True / False...

              "I've recently been exploring some of the evidence put forth to suggest that The Earth is flat."

              So how do they explain satellites in orbit, how GPS works, how compasses work, that we can measure our rotation relative to the moon, sun and planets, and more to the point how otherwise could you sail or fly round the planet?!

              Sounds like the same sort of pseudo-science rubbish they feed the gullible Americans that still don't believe in anthropomorphic global warming..

              1. Richard Plinston Silver badge

                Re: Alien UFO's are Real - True / False...

                > So how do they explain satellites in orbit, how GPS works, how compasses work, that we can measure our rotation relative to the moon, sun and planets, and more to the point how otherwise could you sail or fly round the planet?!

                They don't. They don't explain. They just claim that _everyone_: the whole world, every government, every agency, every airline, shipping company, space agency, everyone; is in a conspiracy to 'hide the truth' that the world is flat (as allegedly stated in the Bible).

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